Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Lloyd]

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ANCIENTS SAW SATURN'S RINGS FORM

The following paraphrases are based on Dwardu Cardona's book, Newborn Star.

THE SPIRALING RIVER

Many ancient cultures imagined proto-Saturn’s spiraling emissions as a divine river flowing from the mouth of the Creator. Scholar William Foxwell Albright pointed out that this idea was deeply rooted in Babylonian belief, where a mighty river — called nara banat kalamu, meaning “river, creatress of everything” — was linked to the Sumerian goddess Engur, also known as “the mother who bore heaven and earth.” This river wasn’t just symbolic; it was seen as the source of all other streams and the force behind creation itself.

Albright also noted that Engur was sometimes called Hubur, the “river of fertility.” However, the idea that Hubur or Engur was the same as the Akkadian apsu or Sumerian abzu isn’t accepted by all scholars. Instead, some believe that apsu/abzu referred to a celestial ocean — specifically, the circumstellar disk around proto-Saturn. This cosmic ocean was thought to be invaded by the spiraling river, a concept echoed in the Yuki Amerind stories from California, which describe a fog or foam swirling endlessly over water.

The Egyptians had a similar view, worshipping the Nile as the god Hapi. But Hapi wasn’t just a river deity — he was originally seen as a celestial river and even called “the creator of things which exist” and “Father of the gods.” In Roman writings, Osiris was symbolized by water held in an urn, representing the Nile’s life-giving power. Across Africa, the river Tano was also revered as a major deity and considered the son of the supreme god, credited with playing a role in Creation.

This belief in rivers as divine forces wasn’t limited to Egypt or Babylon. In India, the sacred river Ganges was said to have “washed” the sky and, as the goddess Ganga, circled the city of Brahma — who is often linked to Saturn. These stories show a widespread idea: that earthly rivers were reflections of celestial ones, and that Saturn played a central role in shaping the universe through these spiraling, life-giving flows.

THE RIVER OCEAN

Many scholars who’ve tried to explain ancient myths and symbols often get caught up in the language and imagery used to describe them. One recurring symbol is the “encircling ocean,” which is usually thought of as a real body of water surrounding the Earth. But this interpretation can be misleading. In ancient texts, especially mythological ones, this “ocean” often represents something more cosmic or symbolic than a literal sea.

For example, in the Latin version of the Apocalypse of Paul, the Apostle Paul is guided through heaven by an angel. During the journey, Paul sees a massive river and asks what it is. The angel tells him it’s the ocean that surrounds the Earth. Later, Paul is placed on this river and told again that it’s called Ocean. Clearly, this “ocean” is described as a river of water flowing from heaven, not the kind of ocean we know today. This shows how ancient people used symbolic language to describe cosmic features, often blending rivers and oceans into one idea.

The confusion deepens when we look at Greek mythology. In Hesiod’s Theogony, Okeanos is described as a “deep-whirling” stream that circles the Earth. Homer also refers to Okeanos as a stream that girdles the world. Over time, mythologists began to mix up this symbolic river with the modern concept of the ocean. Even the name “Okeanos” likely comes from the Akkadian word uginna, meaning “circle,” which fits the idea of a river wrapping around the world. Ancient writers like Diodorus Siculus even connected Okeanos to the Nile, which was seen by Egyptians as a divine river where gods were born.

THE ENCIRCLED EGG

The Dogon people of Mali have preserved ancient stories about how the world began. According to their beliefs, the creator god Amma came down spinning to fix a world that was in chaos. They describe this early universe as an “egg of the world,” which slowly developed and gave birth to everything. Interestingly, they believed creation happened in a spiral motion, which matches how some scientists think matter formed in space. Even their farming reflects this idea—they plow their fields in spirals to honor the movement of creation.

This spiral theme isn’t unique to the Dogon. In ancient Greece, the philosopher Anaxagoras also believed that everything began with a spinning motion. During Greek planting festivals, people would spin tops to help seeds grow, thinking the spiral motion encouraged life. Scholar Elmer Suhr studied this and concluded that spinning or vortex-like movement was seen as essential for creation across many cultures.

In myths from Egypt and Oceania, the cosmic egg is often surrounded by a serpent instead of just being an egg. In Greek stories, the god’s spirit wrapped around the egg like a snake. Hindu myths go even further, saying the egg was wrapped seven times by a celestial serpent. The Pelasgians, an ancient group, called this serpent Ophion. In Buddhist stories, a giant cobra named Muchalinda coiled around the Buddha seven times to protect him, showing how this idea of seven coils appears in many traditions.

Eventually, this idea of seven coils turned into the image of seven eggs in Finland’s national epic, the Kalevala. The spiral shape was so powerful that it became a symbol in architecture too. At the pyramid of Kukulkan in Chichen Itza, Mexico, sunlight during the equinox creates a shadow that looks like a serpent slithering down the stairs. This pattern has seven zigzags, echoing the ancient belief in the spiral motion of creation.

THE SEVENFOLD RIVER

Even though the ideas of a cosmic orb and a spiral seem closely connected, ancient sources don’t clearly explain which came first. In some traditions, the spiral itself was imagined as water that wrapped around the orb. This idea likely came from how proto-Saturn’s spiral emissions overlapped with its shrinking disk of matter. The Akkadians even believed that the serpent Ea—who represented the spiral—was born from the “Watery Deep,” which was basically the same disk. Over time, the god linked to proto-Saturn became associated with both the cosmic ocean and the spiral that surrounded it.

In Sanskrit, Saturn has a name that translates to something like “seven seas of light beams,” showing how ancient people saw the spiral not just as water but also as light. This supports the idea that the spiral’s watery and light-based meanings were often blended together. Hindu texts even treat these seven seas as a given, showing how deeply rooted this concept was. So, whether it was seen as water or light, the spiral was a major symbol tied to cosmic creation and energy.

The spiral was also imagined as a river—or even seven rivers—that flowed toward a great ocean. The Rig Veda talks about “seven mighty rivers” seeking the ocean, which was believed to be a celestial one connected to gods like Agni and Indra. In places like Sumatra, these rivers were seen as gods themselves.

In Tibetan Buddhism, the idea of the sevenfold waterway took a more abstract form. Instead of sticking to older animist beliefs, Tibetan creation stories focused on a mysterious presence that existed before anything else. According to Edwin Krupp, this presence was tied to a “primordial ocean” that began to churn. From this churning came a lake, which then split into seven circular lakes, forming a layered cosmic landscape. This idea of a “seven-zoned watery sky” even shows up in Greek mythology, proving that across cultures, water and spirals were powerful symbols of how the universe began.

[Lloyd]

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SERPENTINE ENTITIES

Throughout history, many cultures have told stories about cosmic serpents, but it's important to understand that these serpents didn’t all represent the same thing. Different myths describe different serpents, each tied to unique events or gods. Scholars like Robert Thomas Rundle Clark pointed this out in Egyptian mythology, but it’s true across the board. So, to stay on track with our exploration, we need to look at ancient sources that link these serpent figures not just to the act of creation, but to the actual creator gods themselves.

EGYPT TO INDIA & AMERICA

One of the oldest examples comes from the Chaldean god known as Hoa or Hea, who is now more commonly called Ea. This god is connected to Saturn and was known as “the lord of the abyss” and “the king of the rivers.” These titles refer to the watery disk that surrounded the early form of the sun, which some believe was Saturn. Interestingly, Ea’s symbol was a serpent—one that was seen as kind and protective, not dangerous. Another serpent-linked god is Ninurta from Sumerian mythology. He’s also tied to proto-Saturn and was called the “serpent of fiery glance.” This name suggests that he had a glowing, snake-like appearance, almost like he was made of fire. That fiery image connects to ancient descriptions of cosmic energy or light bursting out from the center of the universe. In both Mesopotamian and Egyptian traditions, some serpents were seen as female deities. For example, the Egyptian goddess Mut was a serpent who surrounded her father, the sun god Re (or Ra). She later gave birth to Re in a new form called Khonsu, showing how the sun could be reborn. That’s why Ra is often shown with a serpent circling a cosmic sphere above his head — it’s a symbol of this transformation and rebirth.

In Egyptian texts, serpents are also shown as symbols of creation. One passage describes a serpent with many coils as the Creator’s “outflow,” meaning it was part of the process of bringing everything into existence. A hymn even has the serpent speaking, saying it wrapped around itself and made space within its coils—almost like it was forming the universe from its own body. Osiris, another Egyptian god tied to proto-Saturn, was also linked to serpents. He was praised as being wrapped by a great serpent, and during festivals honoring him, people carried serpent figures along with water urns. Even centuries later, Gnostic symbols showed snakes wrapped around the names of gods like Osiris, keeping the serpent imagery alive in spiritual traditions.

In Hindu mythology, serpents play a big role too. Shiva wears a snake as a necklace, and Vishnu sleeps on a giant serpent named Ananta or Shesha during the time of creation. Ananta means “endless,” while Shesha means “residue,” both hinting at the idea of something eternal and leftover from the beginning of time. Another serpent, Vritra, is said to have “bound” or “stolen” the cosmic waters, showing how serpents were seen as powerful forces that shaped the universe. Finally, serpent symbolism appears all over the world — from the Aztecs and Maya in Mesoamerica to the Hopi in North America and the Aboriginal people in Australia. These cultures often showed serpents circling the earth or sacred symbols, representing cosmic energy or creation. Even early Christians in the Gnostic tradition believed in a snake-like form that appeared before time began, wrapping itself in watery space.

NORSE

In Norse mythology, one of the most famous cosmic serpents is Jormungandr, also called the Midgard Serpent. He’s known for wrapping himself around Midgard, which many people think means Earth, but actually comes from the Gothic term “midjun gards,” meaning “middle enclosure.” According to legend, Odin threw Jormungandr into the ocean that surrounds Midgard because the serpent kept growing larger and more powerful. In the sea, Jormungandr continued to expand until he completely encircled Midgard, eventually biting his own tail—a symbol of infinity and cosmic balance. This earned him the name Weltumspanner, meaning “Stretcher-round-the-world,” where "world" seems to have meant Saturn.

In Norse mythology, Odin is the powerful god who cast the serpent Jormungandr into the sea surrounding Midgard, where the serpent eventually grew so large it bit its own tail. This act has led some scholars to connect Odin with proto-Saturn, a cosmic force believed to have discharged fiery spirals into space. Odin’s name appears in many forms—Othin, Woden, Wotan—and was worshipped by different Germanic and Scandinavian cultures. While some thinkers like Velikovsky linked Odin to Jupiter or Zeus, others saw him as Mercury, especially since Wednesday (Woden’s Day) was named after him and matches Mercury’s day in Roman tradition. Despite these comparisons, Odin doesn’t share Mercury’s traits like winged sandals or a trade-focused role. Instead, Odin was seen as a spiritual leader and god of war. In Germanic folklore, he was imagined as a fierce hunter riding through stormy skies, wearing a wide-brimmed hat and flowing cloak. In Scandinavia, he rode an eight-legged horse named Sleipnir and carried a magical spear. These dramatic images helped shape Odin’s identity as a warrior god.

Some scholars once thought Odin started as a minor demon who rose to prominence, but newer research shows he was always a major figure, rooted in Indo-European traditions. His mythology evolved over time, but key symbols and stories remained. For example, the wild hunt and his furious nature may be later additions, not part of his original role. Still, these layers make Odin’s story rich and complex, showing how myths can change while keeping their core meaning. Interestingly, Odin shares traits with Saturnian gods from other cultures. Kronos, the Greek god of Saturn, was often shown with a crow, and Odin is famously accompanied by two ravens, Huginn and Muninn. These birds symbolize thought and memory, and they help link Odin to cosmic wisdom. More than just a war god, Odin was called Alfadir, or Allfather, meaning he was seen as the creator of gods and humans alike. This title connects him to other creator gods like Osiris in Egyptian mythology.

Odin was also said to live at Ginnungagap, the cosmic center known as the Navel of the Earth or Heaven. This location was believed to be the center of the universe, much like where proto-Saturn was thought to reside. So when Odin throws Jormungandr into the sea, it’s not just a dramatic myth — it might reflect a deeper cosmic event, like the discharge of energy from proto-Saturn. This serpent, encircling the world, becomes a symbol of infinity and cosmic balance.

CHINA

The dragon is one of the most recognizable cultural symbols of China, and for many, it serves as the single emblem of the nation. Western audiences are familiar with the dragon through Chinese New Year festivals, where long, colorful, serpent-like dragons are paraded through the streets. Historian Carter Sutherland once compared the Chinese dragon’s cultural importance to the Christian cross and the Islamic crescent. This highlights how deeply the dragon is rooted in China’s cultural, historic, and even spiritual traditions.

Debates about how old the legend of the dragon really is have long focused on the word lung, the Chinese word for “dragon,” which appears in ancient writings. Scholar Herrlee Glessner Creel argued that the first mention of the dragon can be found on oracle bones from the Shang dynasty between 1200 and 1050 B.C. While some have disputed this claim, it is now widely accepted. Still, written mention of the dragon would only take us as far back as writing itself. Ancient artifacts show that the dragon was depicted even earlier, including a notable dragon-shaped statue from the Yangshao culture in Henan, dating to as early as 5000 B.C. This suggests that the dragon had existed in Chinese thought and ritual performance long before writing emerged.

A common depiction of the dragon is its pursuit of a round object known as the chuh, usually called a “pearl.” More accurately referred to as the “fire pearl,” it is often shown in front of the dragon in celebrations such as the New Year festival, with a dancer carrying the glowing “pearl” on a pole ahead of the dragon’s body. In other depictions, however, the dragon is not chasing but encircling the pearl instead. Some scholars, including Sutherland, thought this was just a design choice, but close inspection of imperial robes shows that the encirclement of the pearl was in fact the dominant tradition.

The symbolism of the dragon and its pearl has led to different interpretations across time. Some linked it to natural forces like alligators, storms, or even celestial bodies like the Sun and Moon. However, one deeper interpretation identifies the pearl as a cosmic egg, symbolizing the beginning of creation. In certain myths, the dragon was seen not only as a powerful creature but also as a cosmic force tied directly to the act of creation itself. The emphasis on the serpent and the “egg” across different ancient cultures supports this broader understanding of the dragon as a creative, cosmic power.

The Chinese emperor himself was tied directly to the dragon’s power and presence. Known as the “Son of Heaven,” he sat on the Dragon Throne and wore robes decorated with dragons. The emperors were thought to be reincarnations of the dragon, linking them to gods and rulers of other ancient civilizations, such as the pharaohs of Egypt who saw themselves as avatars of Osiris. In myth, the legendary Yellow Emperor, Huang-Ti, was said to have not only worn the dragon symbol but even to have transformed into a dragon after death. Such comparisons connect the dragon with other great deities of the ancient world, such as Saturnian gods Osiris and Ea.

[Lloyd]

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The Spiraling Enclosure

The Mesopotamian god Ea, also known as Hoa or Hea, was closely associated with the cosmic serpent and seen as a "god of life." His name is linked to the Semitic word hiya, which means both "snake" and "life." This connection made the serpent a fitting symbol for Ea because serpents were believed to symbolize life, partly because they live long and partly because they form a circle, which represents eternity. Observers of the ancient world saw the uncoiling spiral of proto-Saturn's debris as a form of life-giving movement that transformed the once still and lifeless orb into a living being.

David Talbott emphasized that this god, originally motionless and stable, became a wanderer, moving across the sky until settling at a cosmic center. This idea appears in Egyptian texts where the Creator god said he "found no place on which to stand," indicating a period of wandering rather than stability. Other ancient myths similarly describe gods or cosmic beings wandering through primordial waters or darkness before settling or creating the world. For example, Sumerian and Hindu traditions include stories of gods who drift or wander in the chaos before organizing creation, reflecting this universal theme of divine movement.

The wandering is not limited to the gods but also applies to elements they created, like the cosmic egg or circumstellar disk associated with proto-Saturn. Ancient texts from various cultures, such as those of the Yakuts in Siberia or Native American tribes like the Pima and Zuni, tell stories of creator gods or cosmic beings moving over vast waters or darkness before settling. These stories capture the idea of a celestial journey through empty space or chaos that precedes the formation of order and life on Earth.

All these myths, though varied in detail, reveal a common pattern: the movement or wandering of divine beings or cosmic objects before creation begins. This wandering often happens over watery chaos or darkness, symbolizing the original emptiness before life and order emerged. Whether it is the Mesopotamian Ea, the Egyptian Atum, the Hindu Prajapati, or other creator figures, the theme of restless wandering highlights the dynamic and transformative nature of the ancient system.

THE OUROBOROS

Ancient people who witnessed the cosmic events in the sky had no real understanding of what was happening above them. To them, the dim sun (Saturn) suddenly seemed to come alive with strange activities they could only describe based on what they knew from their daily lives. Over time, these interpretations became confusing to later generations trying to explain the original meaning. However, some descriptions did capture parts of the truth. For example, the Maya described a gap forming between the sun, or proto-Saturn, and its shrinking surrounding disk as a watery void created at the command of their Creator, Hurakan. This void was where the sun’s fiery debris began to spiral.

The serpent Leviathan, mentioned in the Bible and other ancient texts, shares many characteristics with serpent symbols from other cultures. Leviathan’s name means “coiled” or “entwined,” and he was said to live deep in the sea while encircling the world or ocean, often depicted gripping his tail in his mouth. Similar myths appear in Egypt, where the serpent Apep — a foe of the sun god Ra — was said to circle and attack the sun. Rituals to defeat Apep involved creating a symbol of a serpent biting its tail. Widely known as the Ouroboros, the image of a serpent biting its own tail existed in many ancient cultures such as Greece, Rome, Egypt, and parts of Africa. The Ouroboros also symbolized cosmic order, often linked to structures like the rings around Earth’s original sun, proto-Saturn. These rings or encirclements appeared like a giant serpent wrapping around the planet, highlighting the serpent’s connection to celestial and earthly cosmologies.

Some have suggested that the Ouroboros myth may have been inspired by real reptiles like the armadillo lizard, which curls into a ball, or rare cases of pythons that bite their own tails. However, these animals are unlikely origins of the symbol because their behaviors are uncommon and their habitats far from where the Ouroboros story was prevalent. Instead, ancient people probably used the serpent as a metaphor, relating strange cosmic phenomena to familiar creatures. Despite attempts to tie the symbol to animals, scholars like van der Sluijs believe the Ouroboros more likely represents auroral displays in the sky rather than terrestrial reptiles.

In ancient Egypt, the Ouroboros first appeared in funerary texts and tomb art dating back to at least the 14th century BCE. African cultures like the Dogon and Fon also featured serpent myths, describing serpents encircling the Earth or ocean while holding their tails in their mouths to support or protect the world. These myths highlight that for many ancient peoples, the "world" often referred to the celestial or cosmic Earth, with the ocean representing the proto-Saturnian ring system. This reinforces the widespread ancient understanding of cosmic serpents playing key roles in creation and cosmic stability.

[Lloyd]

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THE EATING OF ENTRAILS

Proto-Saturn's spiraling discharge was not seen as a beautiful light show by all; some ancient peoples visualized it in a gruesome way as the god’s disemboweled intestines. This horrifying image influenced the Assyro-Babylonians, who performed extispicy—cutting open sacrificed animals and reading their entrails to predict future events. When priests observed anything unusual, they recorded it using clay models so that future priests could interpret the signs correctly. This practice showed how cosmic events inspired earthly rituals to understand the "divine".

This kind of ritual was not unique to the Assyro-Babylonians. Much later, the Bretons of France were known to wash their altars with the blood of human sacrifices and sought guidance by consulting the entrails of these victims. To them, these acts were religious ceremonies, not acts of revenge. However, some cultures went further and actually sacrificed humans to eat their entrails, linking such acts to their ideas about the god swallowing his own intestines, a metaphor for the merging of proto-Saturn’s spiraling debris with its shrinking disk.

In Egypt, dead pharaohs were expected to imitate the gods by symbolically consuming divine entrails in the afterlife. The pyramid of King Unas contains texts describing how Unas, as a celestial bull, hunts, disembowels, and eats the entrails of gods to nourish himself. While horrifying today, this ritual was part of the Egyptian belief system where the afterlife mirrored divine activities. This was viewed symbolically, much like how Christians partake in the Eucharist by symbolically consuming the body and blood of Christ.

Reports of actual cannibalistic rituals also appear in other cultures. The Jewish historian Josephus recorded claims that some temple rites involved fattening a person to be sacrificed and eaten. Although the truth of these claims is debated, it is known that human sacrifice happened in some ancient societies, including the Israelites’ neighbors, the Canaanites, who consumed sacrificial human entrails. However, not all societies approved of consuming entrails — some, like the Khonds in India, avoided eating them despite performing sacrifices. Ancient Greeks practiced similar rites sacrificing bulls, burning and eating their tongues and entrails in solemn feasts meant to mimic cosmic events and prevent their recurrence.

CEREMONIAL ENCIRCLEMENT

This sevenfold spiraling dance of proto-Saturn’s debris inspired ancient cultures to perform rituals involving sevenfold circumambulations around sacred sites. Babylonian priests, for example, would process seven times around their ziggurats, singing hymns and performing prayers honoring gods like Enlil, an aspect of the Saturnian deity. These sevenfold processions symbolized cosmic order and divine protection, reflecting the celestial dance above. The procession often involved carrying the statue of a god around city walls, symbolizing the god’s temporary desertion of the city and later return to restore order.

During the Jericho procession, priests carried the ark of the covenant, a sacred chest containing important religious artifacts, instead of statues. This ark served as a divine symbol and rallying point for the Israelites, similar to Egyptian sacred barques carried in military campaigns for protection. The ark’s design, with two winged figures resembling cherubim, closely resembles depictions of Amon-Ra’s barque in Egyptian temples, illustrating a shared symbolism between cultures. Though the physical destruction of Jericho or the ark’s supernatural power are doubtful, the ancient belief in the divine power of sevenfold circumambulation endures. Even today, visitors to sites like Egypt’s Karnak temple are asked to walk seven times around sacred columns to honor the tradition. Circumambulation was also practiced at the Buddhist temple of Borobudur, reflecting a universal ritual dance commemorating Creation. Known in India as pradakshina, it remains part of Buddhist worship practices worldwide. In the Hebrew Talmud, which is the central text of Rabbinic Judaism, dancing is described as the main activity of the angels. These celestial beings are imagined circling the throne of God in a heavenly dance, an idea that dates back to the earliest periods of Hebrew culture. Much later, St. Basil the Great, a fourth-century bishop, praised this concept, asking if anything could be more blessed than to imitate the ring-dance of angels here on Earth. This heavenly dance expresses a deep connection to cosmic order and divine harmony.

Ancient Romans also recognized the sacredness of circular dances. The poet Lucian described circular dancing as the movement of stars and planets in the heavens, symbolizing the cosmic order and the Creation. Though the original significance of proto-Saturn was forgotten by Roman times, the link between circular dance and divine harmony persisted, showing the resilience of this ancient cosmic symbolism. This tradition of sevenfold circumambulation has outlasted ancient times and is still found in modern Christian practices. Many Christian processions, especially Catholic ones, involve circling around churches or sacred objects, often holding candles that symbolize light. These processions connect worshippers with a sense of cosmic unity and divine presence. The famous biblical story of Joshua circling the city of Jericho seven times exemplifies the power of this tradition. Pre-Islamic Arabs practiced similar rituals by circumambulating temples or shrines, especially the Ka'aba in Mecca. Muslims continue this tradition today during pilgrimages, circling the Ka'aba seven times in a ritual called tawaf. This dance around the cube-shaped Ka'aba connects worshippers with the divine and the celestial order. Before Islam, the Ka'aba housed idols, including Hubal, the god of the planet Saturn, affirming the longstanding symbolism of the cube and sevenfold procession as linked to Saturn worship. Artist Gustave Dore famously illustrated this heavenly ring-dance in his depictions of Dante’s Divine Comedy. More recently, views of astronomical phenomena, like spiraling matter ejected by stars such as R Sculptoris, help us imagine how ancient people might have visualized these celestial dances. Importantly, these circles of angels were also said to dance around the Angel of the Sabbath, a figure closely linked to the stars. In fact, the Sabbath, or Saturday, is known to be Saturn’s Day — its Hebrew name "Shabtai" directly refers to the planet Saturn.

Modern indigenous peoples in Mexico continue to honor ancient traditions through circular dances imitating celestial movements. The Maya and Aztec gods, like Quetzalcoatl and Kukulkan, are celebrated through ritual dances that circle and rotate, showing human participation in the cosmic dance. Such ceremonies blend social joy with spiritual reverence in ways similar to ancient religious rites. Among North American tribes, the Navajo perform a night-time sun dance, racing around a fire while holding torches. The ritual symbolizes the cosmic dance and the ordered reality around a fixed center, which ancient peoples believed was the stationary proto-Saturn rather than the sun. This dance combines festive celebration with deep spiritual meaning, showing the cosmic order reflected in human life. The Mandan people practiced a much more intense version of the circumambulatory ritual. Participants undergo self-inflicted pain and injuries before being dragged in a race around a ring of dancers. Witnessed by artist George Catlin, the ceremony was seen as an ultimate test of endurance and devotion linked to ancestral cosmic events. Though outlawed, the ritual expresses the lasting power of cosmic memory in tribal religion. Other tribes have simpler, less painful circular dances, like the Algonquins, who dance around carved posts topped with human heads. Many Amerindian tribes hold similar ceremonies, all reflecting an ancient human urge to connect with the cosmos through circular movement. Even in Hawaii, the god Lono is honored with processions and dancing triggered by celestial events like the appearance of the Pleiades, underscoring the ancient link between ritual dance and the stars.

ENPASSANT

Many researchers agree that these circular rituals come from the sevenfold circles associated with the proto-Saturn deity. Georgia Balbin pointed out that the rings of Saturn serve as a real-world basis for many different forms of circular worship found across cultures. However, these ceremonies were not only for worship. They also had a practical side, such as in ancient cities where wall processions helped define the city as a sacred, protected space separate from chaotic, dangerous forces. For example, during crises, people would walk around their city walls with prayers, candles, and relics to strengthen their spiritual and magical protection. Not only in the West but also in places like northern India, similar rituals existed. People would circle their villages during epidemics to keep harmful spirits away. These ceremonies symbolized a return to cosmic order, where marking a sacred space separated it from chaos. Jill Purce explained that such ritual circumambulations imitate the original act of Creation itself by ordering and sanctifying space. While these rituals had deep religious meanings, dancing and circling also evolved beyond sacred uses. People learned to dance to express themselves, celebrate, seek magic, and influence nature. Over time, dances were performed for war, rain, fertility, harvest, birth, mourning, healing, puberty, and even death, like the fierce tandava of Shiva. Eventually, dancing became an art and a form of enjoyment for both dancers and observers.

[Lloyd]

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Orbital Development

THE SEVEN DAYS

According to the Book of Genesis, known to Jews and Christians, God (Elohim) completed Creation in seven consecutive days. However, this raises questions since, during the creation event, the Earth was suspended under its primeval sun rather than orbiting it, meaning there was no way to measure time as we know it. The Sun, Moon, and stars — our current timekeepers — were not said to be placed in the sky until the fourth day, so how could anyone tell that three days had passed? Some scholars, like Moshe ben Maimon, have suggested that the “seven days” are metaphorical, representing seven long eras rather than literal days. For example, Jesuit scientist Guy Consolmagno describes the seven days as poetic, each holding an important lesson, rather than strict 24-hour periods. What truly matters is the significance of the number seven, which recurs throughout many cultures associated with the proto-Saturnian deity. In Hebrew, the name for Saturn, Shabtai, comes from roots meaning “seven” or “sevenfold.” Similar connections appear in Indian culture where the god Shiva is linked to the number seven. In Mesoamerica, deities associated with Saturn also emphasize the number seven, such as the Mayan god Itzam-Yeh, also known as Seven-Macaw. The number seven was commemorated by numerous ancient rituals repeated seven times, and this sacred number even influenced later beliefs about the world ending in seven days. This sevenfold cosmic spiral, seen as a celestial serpent, symbolizes the victory of order over chaos — a reminder that the seven “days” are about symbolic cosmic cycles, not literal time.

THE SEVEN SEAS

By the time Christianity had taken root, ancient beliefs held that Creation was a mighty struggle where God battled the forces of chaos and evil, often pictured as the threatening waters of the sea. This idea traces back to much earlier Canaanite stories where the world formed after a battle between the storm god Baal and the great sea monster Leviathan, seen as the god of chaos. The number seven also appeared linked to the deep sea in Assyro-Babylonian myths, naming a group of malevolent spirits dwelling in the watery chaos called apsu, which stood for the chaotic primordial waters. Saturn was linked to this apsu because, as the god Ea, he was said to have chained the waters, keeping them controlled.

Ancient gods often appeared with serpent symbolism linked to water and cosmic order. Ningishzida, a Babylonian deity with two serpents on his shoulders, was seen as an aspect of Saturn. This idea connects well with Egyptian stories of Seven Wise Ones emerging from the water of Nu, a celestial sea. Leviathan, described as a sea monster or even the sea itself, was also connected to the celestial ocean, much like the Hindu cosmic serpent Shesha. This concept reflects the vision of a cosmic serpent spiraling with starry waters, blending debris spiraling from the primeval sun (Saturn) with contracting celestial oceans. The deep ties between the number seven, water, and light appear in Indian traditions where “the seven seas of teeming light beams” relate the spiritual significance of seven to cosmic waters and light.

These ancient stories about Creation emerging from seven seas were later misunderstood. The Hebrew and other early Semitic languages used the same consonant spelling "ym" for both "sea" and "day," but without vowel markings, the meaning was determined by context. Early Hebrew readers naturally interpreted the phrase "Creation took place in seven ym" as "seven days" rather than "seven seas" because the idea of days was easier to grasp. By the time vowel markings were added to Hebrew between the 5th and 10th centuries AD, the seven days had become the accepted understanding. The details about creating the sun, moon, stars, and life were later added to explain the importance of this seven-day Creation timeline.

THE DAY OF REST

The Book of Genesis tells us that God completed the work of Creation in six days and then rested on the seventh day. Because of this, the seventh day became sacred and was named the Sabbath, a day linked to the planet Saturn. In Hebrew, the word "Sabbath" (Shabbat) is connected to "Shabtai," the name for Saturn. Many Jewish people have historically disliked the connection between their holy day and Saturn’s day, but this connection has strong roots not only in Judaism but in many other ancient cultures. The name for the seventh day in English, Saturday, is derived from "Saturn’s Day," and other languages, including Italian, Arabic, Maltese, Indian, and even some in Southeast Asia, have similar names for that day, all tied to the planet Saturn.

The meaning of God’s rest on the seventh day invites deeper questions. The Hebrew word for rest, "shabath," means to stop or cease from moving or exertion. This raises the question: did God stop working, or did God come to rest in a place? In ancient times, Earth’s slight wobbling around the celestial pole was connected to the behavior of proto-Saturn, seen as wandering before coming to rest at the center of the cosmic spiral. Thus, God’s rest on the seventh day might symbolize proto-Saturn’s return to stillness at the center of the sevenfold spiral, or "seventh sea," marking the completion of Creation and cosmic order being established.

THE SEVEN HEAVENS

In Talmudic tradition, it is believed that there are seven heavens, called "rakiim" in Hebrew, which the soul must pass through to reach the Throne of Glory. This is where the phrase "seventh heaven" comes from, meaning a state of ultimate happiness or ecstasy. Interestingly, this idea is very similar to the ancient Egyptian concept of the Duat, their version of the underworld, which was also seen as being in the sky and divided into seven compartments. In our study, these seven divisions correspond to proto-Saturn's sevenfold spiral that split into seven distinct rings. Jewish mythology explains that after creation, these heavens became fruitful and multiplied. God is said to have "made firm the heavenly circle" and divided it into seven halls or "hekalot." These seven heavens were made of fire and water and it is in the seventh heaven that Yahweh is believed to reside.

The concept of seven heavens is also found in other ancient cultures. Babylonian gods were said to rule over seven starry circles, and this number seven appeared throughout their cosmic myths. Many scholars have tried to explain the number seven by linking it to the five planets visible to the naked eye, plus the Sun and the Moon, making seven important celestial bodies. However, this explanation falls short because only five planets were known to ancient people (Uranus and Neptune were discovered much later). Some have suggested the idea of "opposites" of the planets existing beneath the Earth, but this remains unclear. The number seven more likely represented completeness or wholeness. Jewish texts included all sorts of mystical and sometimes terrifying things within the seven heavens.

Moreover, Jewish lore describes hell, called Gehinom, as having seven parts like heaven. Interestingly, hell is said to be located not below the earth, as in Christian ideas, but high above the sky. Gehinom is also the name of a valley near Jerusalem where the god Moloch was worshipped, and Moloch’s temple had seven chambers. This shows a link between the valley’s name and the Saturnian god’s heavenly home. The name Gehinom is similar to Gehenna, and in the Maltese language, it means paradise rather than hell. Jewish mythology says paradise is also divided into seven sections.

Wallace Budge, a noted scholar, warned not to think of the Duat simply as a place of punishment or hell. Instead, it makes more sense to see it as the abode of the god in the sky — a kind of heaven. While over time the Duat became associated with the afterlife and judgment, originally, it was the celestial home of gods, including the creative power behind the seven heavens in both Egyptian and Jewish beliefs. This complex picture of heavens and underworld divided into seven parts shows how deeply the number seven was tied to sacred ideas of cosmic order.

CONCENTRIC ENCLOSURES

Halos, which are also called glories, appear frequently in religious texts and art. In the Book of Enoch, God’s glory is described as a "flaming fire" surrounding Him, and elsewhere the "glory of the Lord" is compared to a devouring fire. What’s especially interesting is that this glory, or halo, is said to consist of "seven sheaths of fire, laid one over another." Essentially, halos are rings or circles of light that can be seen around a person or object, symbolizing divine presence or power. When asked about the seven hekalot, or “heavenly halls,” in Jewish tradition, they are said to consist of seven zones — each a circle in a sevenfold orbit that makes up the heavens.

One ancient Mesopotamian god linked to Saturn is Humbaba, also called Huwawa, who was said to be surrounded by a sevenfold halo known as the sevenfold terror. Although Babylonian scholars did not explain what these seven halos represented, they were clearly recognized as a sign of power. In Egypt, the sun god Ra was praised as the lord of hidden circles, and his souls were said to be seven in number. In India, one of the Sanskrit names for Saturn means “son of the sun,” and Saturn is described as having seven rays. The abode of the god Brahma, called the Brahmanda, is divided into seven ring-shaped regions or dvipas, which may refer to islands or oceans, creating a bull’s-eye or concentric rings pattern.

The concept of seven rings or circles appears in many other ancient traditions. For example, the river Ganga was believed to travel seven times around a cosmic center before descending to Earth, symbolizing spiritual purity. In Hindu beliefs, the god of Time, Kala, is represented with seven wheels, connecting time and cosmic cycles. Even the wind, similar to the Genesis concept of ruach, is described as having seven wheels or paths. The Jaina tradition, although separate from Hinduism, also illustrates a cosmos of layered heavens and hells arranged in concentric rings, forming a middle world surrounded by these watery boundaries.

This ancient idea of cosmic rings extends across cultures, even among the Yupik in Alaska, who honor a series of concentric rings representing waters surrounding the universe. The Finnish national epic Kalevala tells of mythical eggs that created heaven and earth, with six golden eggs and one iron egg, hinting at a difference in one of the cosmic rings. Despite confusion and reinterpretation over the centuries, the original concept of seven concentric rings, connected to proto-Saturn’s cosmic order, remains visible in these varied myths and traditions.

[Lloyd]

MORE FROM NEWBORN STAR (6)

The Sibitti

SEVEN BOUND IN THREE

Ancient societies did not all agree that there were exactly seven heavens. Many traditions from around the world describe the heavens as having more or fewer than seven. This isn’t because the seven rings around Earth’s early sun weren’t important. In fact, along with these seven rings, there were other emissions from the spiraling debris of proto Saturn. These other emanations were sometimes mistaken for rings by people who never saw the original formation. The complex way these seven rings formed created numerical issues that caused confusion in stories passed down later. This confusion wasn’t just from oral traditions, but also from how later people tried to understand the original meanings.

People in later generations who read ancient reports would look up at the sky and see nothing like what their ancestors described. They did their best to figure it out, much like modern mythologists do today, but confusion was inevitable. This confusion still exists now. Around the world, there are ancient carvings and sacred images showing three rings instead of seven. In India, these three concentric circles represent Mahadeo, or "Great God," which is a title for Shiva. Similarly, Vishnu is believed to uphold the "threefold" nature of earth and heaven. Other deities like Yama and Varona are also linked to three heavens or spheres of light.

The idea of three cosmic zones is common and can be found all over the world. Cultures from Siberia to Mesoamerica, from Africa to Europe, share this concept in different forms. Although the details vary, the general idea of three heavens or realms appeared globally with local variations. Many ancient texts say gods live in these three bright realms of heaven. This shows how important the number three was symbolically in many ancient beliefs. Different tribes and peoples imagined the cosmos as circles or discs layered on top of each other.

The belief in three heavens goes back to ancient times, including Mesopotamian civilizations. For example, in Mesopotamia, the sky was understood as three heavens ruled by different gods. These three rulers were often linked to aspects of Saturn, much like Shiva in India. Some texts hint that each of these three heavens contained several layers, implying the total number could be seven but arranged in groups of three. Ancient Hindu scriptures also describe seven heavens stretched out into three layers. These layers could be interpreted as rings or regions surrounding the earth, showing how complex and intertwined these ideas were.

In other parts of the world like China, ancient texts talk about the origin of heaven and earth through the Tao. The Taoist belief includes the idea of things being formed through stages of "one," "two," and "three." This pattern is similar to the ancient ideas of layered heavens. Modern astronomy also categorizes Saturn’s rings into three main groups, showing that the ancient concept of three layers has a connection to real cosmic structures. Even though the seven rings of Saturn are known today, these rings are grouped into three main concentric zones, reinforcing the ancient idea of three heavens or cosmic layers.

OTHER HEAVENS

Some native peoples of the Philippines offer a clear example of how ancient stories can become mixed up over time. They say there are four layers above our world but that the number of layers below the world is unknown. The layers below probably come from a misunderstanding of an original idea about the underworld. The four layers above might come from adding the proto-Satumian sphere to three surrounding bands. Similarly, the Bella Coola Indians in British Columbia believe in four layers of heaven — two above and two below the world — making five layers in total when including the world itself. In Colombia, the Kogi people believe there are four layers above and four below the world, making nine layers altogether.

Other traditions also describe different numbers of heavens. For example, the people of the Tuamotu Islands in French Polynesia believe in eight sky realms and eight land realms. Some Polynesian groups speak of ten heavens, while the Maya believe in thirteen layers. Many of these traditions likely come from changes made to the numbers three and seven over time, often without including a central world. For instance, the Dogon people of West Africa believe in fourteen heavens, a belief shared by some Hindu sects. In Hindu stories, this number comes from splitting the original seven heavens into two parts — one celestial and one earthly — making fourteen worlds. Despite these variations, the oldest Near Eastern traditions usually describe seven heavens.

OTHER SEVENS

The number seven held a powerful place in the minds of ancient people, becoming a number that was often mentioned, respected, and even surrounded by mystery. Louis Ginzberg, in his seven-volume work on Jewish legends, points out over one hundred and thirty examples of the number seven. Yet, even more striking is the Hebrew Old Testament, which mentions the number seven more than seven hundred times. Not all of these occurrences are connected to the concept of seven heavens, but the idea of seven circles or rings around the Earth was often linked to it. Many mythologists believe this importance of seven comes from the seven classical planets visible to the ancient eye. Peter Lancaster Brown shares that the Babylonians held this number in high regard; their famous ziggurat, called the House of the Seven Bonds of Heaven and Earth, was painted in seven colors and represented the seven heavenly spheres.

Similarly, Henry Rawlinson described this ziggurat as having seven levels, each symbolizing one of the seven planets and painted with the color associated with that planet. Even the idea of the “seven days of Creation,” which some may misunderstand today, was celebrated each year with week-long festivals in Babylonian temples. The number seven wasn’t just important in the Middle East — the Seven Wise Ones of Egypt were said to have been born from the celestial ocean and were connected to the sun god Ra. In India, the god Brahma was believed to have created seven sages called Rishis, who were often pictured as forming a circle of wisdom. These sages were known by many names, including Prajapatis, a title closely linked to Brahma.

The idea of seven wise or divine figures carrying cosmic importance also appeared in ancient Assyro-Babylonian culture. Known as the Sebettu or Sibitti, their name derives from words meaning “seven” in several languages. The Jewish Sabbath day, or “seventh day,” shares the same root, as does Shabtai — the name for the planet Saturn in Jewish tradition. The Sebettu were said to have built the ancient city of Uruk, a place with deep spiritual significance marked by seven protective walls. This idea of seven layers or walls highlights the ancient symbolic power of seven. Similar concepts exist in Buddhist paradise, which is described as having seven terraces and lotus pools edged with seven jewels, as well as Celtic mythical dwellings with seven rooms and doors, reflecting this sacred number once again.

Across many cultures, the number seven is deeply woven into stories about the heavens, divine beings, and the universe’s structure. It symbolizes completeness, power, and cosmic order. These ancient myths, legends, and religious texts all point to the strong symbolic force that seven held for early civilizations, shaping how they explained the world and the heavens above. From the Middle East to India, Egypt, and even Celtic lands, seven continues to represent a special, almost magical number tied to both the heavens and the earth.

Even powerful female deities, like Medb in Celtic mythology, were associated with this number. The celestial buildings or domains were described as having seven parts made of fire, suggesting an intimate link between divine realms and the sacred number seven. This connection to cosmic and divine power shows how the number seven was more than just a count; it was a symbol of the heavens themselves, deeply respected in stories passed down through generations.

RESULTING RAMIFICATIONS

The appearance of seven circles was so powerful that early Judeo-Christian religious writings continued to use this imagery. Among the Jews, the number seven came to symbolize anything connected to the heavens or divine power. For example, Jewish stories mention seven objects that existed before creation, seven qualities of God, seven groups of archangels, seven confusing angels, seven female demons, and even the seven cities founded by Enoch. These ideas influenced both Judeo-Christian and pagan traditions. The “seven days of Creation” story led to festivals like the Greek Kronia and the Roman Saturnalia, which honored Saturn, the god connected to the number seven. When Christianity spread, these festivals were merged with Christmas celebrations, which originally lasted seven days. Today, the number seven is still surrounded by mystery, showing up in ideas like the seven gods of fertility, seven seals, and seven deadly sins. Throughout history, the number seven almost lost some of its sacred meaning but has never fully disappeared. It still influences superstitions, such as the concept of "the seventh wave" in surfing. This shows how the power of the number seven has stayed with humans for thousands of years.

[Lloyd]

434984

2016 SATURN THEORY VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

Better late than never. I hadn't seen this video before. I was just looking through Youtube videos on the Saturn Theory and came across it. I looked for such videos previously, but never found this one before. It's one of the most interesting ones I've found. It goes into detail about how the Saturn System seems to have evolved. I'm not endorsing or accepting it yet, but it seems very plausible offhand. It's not an exact transcript, but I think it's close. The paragraph headings were added. I hope to make a Substack post on it before long, which will include numerous images to help explain the text.

“The Saturn Hypothesis” by Wayne Byrne, Spring 2016
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74vo5Dyl-7I&t=682s

Introduction
Well, for those of you who don't know me — which is all of you — my name is Wayne Byrne. I describe myself as an independent researcher with no academic or institutional affiliations. So all the ideas presented here are mine. First, I'm going to give you a quick overview of my main theory of gravity and electromagnetic repulsion.

Rethinking Gravity: Space as a Fluid
Newton assumed that space was a vacuum when he considered gravity. But we now know that’s untrue. Space is a plasma — full of charged particles — and plasmas, like liquids and gases, are fluids. So I propose we treat space as a fluid medium. Every astronomical body, from the largest star to the smallest meteoroid, is a solid body completely immersed in this fluid medium. Thus, gravity becomes a matter of simple fluid dynamics. Following the second law of thermodynamics, the plasma will attempt to lower its energy state by occupying the space currently taken up by the body. This creates a force — surface pressure — around the object. The presence of other bodies affects this force. It’s simple Newtonian mechanics, but instead of using mass, I use volume. As I’ll show you, volume correlates much better than mass. So, all you really need to remember is that space is pushing everything together, following the second law of thermodynamics.

Balancing Gravity with Electromagnetic Repulsion
If everything gets pushed together, eventually there would be nothing left. To balance this, I propose a system of mutual electromagnetic repulsion between astronomical bodies connected by Birkeland currents. After planetary genesis, a planet emerges with its core in place, carrying a colossal amount of charge — on the order of 10¹⁸ amps. That’s enormous. This results in a highly charged core and a surface with low potential. Birkeland currents form in response to this imbalance, aiming to equalize the potential. These currents form at the poles of the planet, which is a slightly flattened oblate spheroid. The poles offer the path of least resistance, so currents flow from the northern and southern hemispheres, distributing charge throughout the body.

Birkeland Currents and Planetary Connections
Birkeland currents are essential for solar system formation because they connect planets. When two planetary cores have a potential difference, connections form at their equatorial regions. This system ensures that the planets can never come into contact — it’s automatic magnetic repulsion.

Surface Charge Density and Planetary Arrangement
Let’s look at a simple system: three inner planets and the Sun. The term SCD (surface charge density) is useful here. It’s incomplete, but it works for now. The higher a body’s SCD, the more repulsion power it has. The further away a planet is from its parent Sun, the higher its SCD — because the Sun repels it outward. The Sun connects to each of its planets in turn, according to their SCD. Each planet is daisy-chained to its immediate inner and outer neighbors. This applies to satellites as well — moons and rings are daisy-chained to their parent planet. Planets connect to the Sun, and the electrical hierarchy continues upward to stars with higher SCDs.

Structure and Rotation of Birkeland Currents
Birkeland currents consist of concentric, counter-rotating layers of current filaments. This is based on the lightning bolt model from last year, which is slightly outdated but still functional. The outer layer rotates clockwise, the next layer counterclockwise, and so on. These currents have a quirky spatial geometry — they’re cylindrical. When two bodies are connected by a cylindrical current, one end appears to rotate clockwise and the other counterclockwise. I propose that the outer layer of Birkeland currents is responsible for a planet’s axial rotation. For example, if the current rotates clockwise, planet one will rotate clockwise, while planet two will rotate counterclockwise.

Building the Solar System Model
Using this model, you can assemble the solar system starting with the Sun’s axial rotation and working outward through the planets. In the heliosphere diagram, the top shows the inner planets up to the asteroid belt and Jupiter. The bottom shows the outer planets. Current layers are stacked vertically, with the most powerful near the core and the weakest at the bottom. Mercury uses a weaker current layer to connect to Venus and repel it. Its stronger current layer connects back to the Sun. Venus must repel both Earth and its moon before linking back to the Sun. It connects from point A to the Sun’s point C, and the three currents below force Venus into a clockwise axial rotation.

Planetary and Satellite Interactions
The Moon is shown on both sides of Earth because it must connect with both Venus and Mars’s outer moon, Deimos, which it repels. At Saturn, all outer satellites are aggregated for simplicity. Saturn’s bottom connection (point A) links to its innermost moon, and the next layer connects to its outermost moon. Uranus and Pluto also have clockwise axial rotations, just as shown in the diagram. If any of these outer planets gain or lose a moon or ring, their axial rotation will change. There are about 200 moons and rings in total, and their configuration plays a crucial role in the dynamics of planetary rotation and repulsion.

Satellite Daisy-Chaining and Axial Rotation
And as there are about 200 moons and rings, I think I'm doing pretty well with this model so far. It stacks up and predicts the anomalous clockwise axial rotations. But what else can it do? We'll have to look at solar systems. Just to show you how planets daisy-chain their satellites: The first two moons will always have the same axial rotation as the parent planet. After that, they will alternate.

The Asteroid Belt and Kirkwood Gaps
The asteroid belt is shown as having two regions initially, but it could have three, four, five — whatever. The only connections that will change are in the middle. Jupiter and its outer moon, and Mars and Deimos, won’t be affected. So the asteroid belt could have multiple regions, which aligns with the thinking behind the Kirkwood gaps. That’s the asteroid belt as it is now. That’s the full heliosphere — both northern and southern hemispheric currents — all nice and neat. It’s rather like a set of nested toruses that spin inside each other. It’s not quite that simple when it’s all in motion, but that’s the full wiring diagram.

Ideal vs. Actual Solar System
This, I suggest, is an ideal solar system under both the accretion disk theory and mine. You’d have a Sun with the rocky planets closer in, then the ice giants, and then the gas giants. But ours doesn’t look anything like that.

Surface Gravity vs. Volume
Here is the plot of surface gravity against volume for our solar system members — a nice straight line with Mercury, Earth, and Jupiter. If you plot the masses, you’ll find a curve. On this graph, if you want to stick to basics and plot a line with two intersecting points and one adjacent as a minimum, you cannot fit a curve to that set of points. And the same applies to the mass plot — you cannot fit a straight line to it. The mass plot gives an exponential function, which is probably useful over about two to three orders of magnitude. That’s why, once we get further out, gravity starts to fall apart.

Outliers and System Discrepancies
There are five outliers. I’ve taken the projections up from their points to show where they would be in relative positions. If the Sun is at the north axis and Jupiter is up there, the ice giants would be between the rocky planets and the gas giants. But those three are way out of place. It doesn’t matter whether you plot mass — the same outliers occur.

Introducing the Saturn Hypothesis
So what can we do about that? This is where the Saturn Hypothesis comes in. It seems to be the only alternative offered to explain the recent history of our solar system and why our planets are such a hodgepodge. I’m sure you all know enough about the Saturn Hypothesis to stop me from running through it all, but I’m going to test it using my solar system model.

Establishing the Two Systems
The first thing we need to do is establish the two original systems: the Sol system and the Saturn system. For the solar system, I’ve taken the axial rotation of our Sun as anti-clockwise and fitted the rest in as they would be with current connections. The Saturnian system is a little more difficult. There are eight possible current configurations for the original Saturn system. This was the one I tried first instinctively. I played around with the others and, for reasons I’ll explain later, discarded them. I went with this.

The Moon and Venus in the Saturn System
I’ve included the Moon for two reasons: Our Moon is what I would call a natural moon — a fully differentiated planetary body on a smaller scale. Irregular moons, like Mars’s Deimos and Phobos, are more likely the result of capture, which is why they’re not included. They would have come from the resultant mayhem I’m about to explain. Also, the earliest records of the Moon we have are lunar cycles carved on bone found in France. Alexander Marshack translated the cycles, and they were dated to around 32,000 BC, which fits with the proposed timeline I have in mind. I’ve included Venus in the Saturn system because I find the explanation of Venus being a piece of plasma spat out by Saturn to be profoundly unscientific — really, not just a little ridiculous, to be perfectly honest. So I’ve placed it in the equatorial lineup that Dave Talbott and others have proposed.

Collision Course: Saturn Meets Sol
So there are two systems. What happens when we point the Saturn system at the Sol system, set the controls for the heart of the Sun, and push the big red button? First, the Saturn system will enter the Sun’s heliosphere. The Sun will connect to it with Birkeland currents, just as it would with any other threat to system stability — like a comet or similar.

Saturn’s Entry and Gravitational Effects
As Saturn moves across the heliosphere in the outer regions, it will still be a brown dwarf. It will still have its plasma sheath, which — like other substellar objects — will be more ultraviolet than infrared. As the Saturn system moves through the heliosphere, it will encounter an increased gravitational field. The first effect will be to slightly compress the Saturn system. There won’t be a great compression, because gravity acts more by pushing the whole thing toward the Sun rather than compressing it internally. That’s a much slower process. In my theory, all planets are formed as gas giants initially. Gravity acts over time to compress them down to ice giants, and then down into rocky planets. They progress toward the Sun like that, forming the idealized solar system we saw earlier.

The Moon’s Movement and Visibility
Here, the Moon is much smaller and will be pushed further toward the Sun by gravity. So the Moon is going to stretch out away from the Earth. At this point, we still can’t see it because we’re inside a brown dwarf. All we have is ultraviolet light — nothing is visible yet. So we still can’t see the Moon.

Saturn’s Plasma Sheath and the Yellow Dwarf Effect
The second effect is that once the system is inside Jupiter’s orbit, the increased gravitational pressure will put more stress on the plasma sheath. Plasma sheaths are superheated under gravity. If you have a sun, you have massive volume and massive gravity, and that sheath becomes extremely hot under pressure — so much so that it lights up as a yellow dwarf. With Saturn being so close, when its plasma sheath lights up and warms, it will appear as a yellow dwarf — just as in the polar configuration image from Dave Talbott. And there it is: Earth’s first sun. Saturn — the best sun, the prime sun, etc. I’m sure you all know the references.

The World Axis and Celestial Alignment
Once the current connections to the Sun have been arranged, the system will be held in an equatorial line. You’ll have this image lined up for quite a long period while all the current connections from the Sun to Mars, Venus, Earth, and Saturn are being made. This alignment effectively creates a world axis, with Saturn at the celestial pole. At the other end of the sky, a spectacular light show unfolds.

Plasma Discharges and the Squatter Man
These are the familiar “Squatter Man” images documented by Tony Pratt. They would be seen in the sky as the Sun and Mercury form a connection to Earth. We would see those — if we were alive then — as the Sun connects to Earth and Mercury. You won’t see it in the Saturn image because the Earth-to-Mars connection is already established. But you will see the Sun and Mercury forming new ones, and they will be the source of the Squatter Man and other plasma discharge images.

Saturn’s Axial Reversal
Once the Sun is integrated, what does the system look like in terms of current flow? Here we are with all the planets integrated. The first thing to notice is that Saturn now has a clockwise axial rotation. It has undergone a full reversal of its axial spin. This wouldn’t have happened when Saturn first connected to the Sun as a comet — it would have occurred later, during its second connection, when all the current links with the rest of the system were being made. Saturn’s connection to the Sun is a “C” type, so it will change its axial rotation as the system moves. When this happens, I suggest the whole system tilts over as one. This would explain the similar axial rotations of Saturn, Mars, and Earth. Don’t worry about Venus yet — she has a little adventure of her own.

The Tilted System and Saturn’s Crescent
Another effect of this axial tilt is that Earth, acting like our Moon during a solar eclipse, would cast a pale shadow over Saturn. But once the system tilts, Earth, Mars, and Venus will be above the equatorial axis. Then sunlight from Sol will illuminate a bright crescent at the bottom of Saturn. Of course, this is a northern hemispheric view. If you’re in the southern hemisphere, the crescent will appear at the top. Dave Talbott has assembled many images showing crescents at the bottom, top, and both sides. Most references I found show the crescent at the bottom or side — very few at the top. But that’s likely a matter of geographical distribution. Unless someone can link individual images to their geographic origins, you couldn’t say for sure.

The Golden Age of Saturn
Now we enter the Golden Age of Saturn — a sun at either end of the sky. The Moon is far away from Earth, caught between two suns. We still can’t see it. In this golden age, vegetation on Earth will grow profusely. You’re now introducing more infrared light as opposed to UV. UV is good for bulk vegetation growth, but infrared is needed for flowering and fruiting. So in this golden age, there will be resource abundance. Everyone’s needs are easily met. Food is everywhere — on the vine, on the hoof. You don’t need to worry about anything.

Venus’s Ordeal: Scarring, Orbit, and Heat
But not everything in the garden is rosy. Events are already underway that will send this demi-paradise crashing through the seven gates of hell. Let’s take a closer look at Venus. From an equatorial view — which we wouldn’t see — you can observe the powerful connecting currents from Saturn that are constantly electrically machining Venus. This gives us the bright, radiant star. Because these currents are equatorial, the erosion occurs on the equatorial regions. This leads to the pronounced equatorial scarring we see on Venus today. It also explains Venus’s nearly spherical orbit. As the equator is machined from an oblate spheroid down to a sphere, the orbit becomes more balanced. It no longer has the weight imbalance of an oblate spheroid. This process goes on for some time, stripping away layers of Venus’s crust. That leaves Venus much hotter than we expected. A thin crust means less pressure on the mantle, which results in extensive volcanic activity. Stripping the crust also exposes hydrocarbons buried at depth. So that explains Venus’s hydrocarbons, spherical orbit, and volcanic activity — all from its time under Saturn’s influence. Although the planets are held in a straight conjunction on a world axis, the bits of Venus will spread out in an orbital direction — just like that. They’ll be held there by Mars and Saturn repelling them from both sides.

The Asteroid Belt and Saturn Begins to Move
And now you have an asteroid belt — and thus the seeds of destruction are sown. We move on to Act Two of this cosmic drama: the fall of Saturn. As soon as the currents are all in place, that will be our lineup. The first thing that happens is Saturn begins to move outward because its surface charge density (SCD) is much closer to Jupiter’s than to its current position. Venus will follow. Mars, unfortunately, is now trapped by the asteroid belt. It can't move through it. All movement in solar systems is equatorial because the currents are equatorial — everything revolves around an equatorial plane. So Mars is stuck.

Electrical Stress Between Mars and Venus
The connecting current between Mars and Venus will come under severe electrical stress. It needs to be maintained, so the Sun will pour charge onto Mars and through to Venus to preserve that connection. They will enter glow mode, which may be the source of Dave Talbott’s images of the White Crown of Egypt — where you see the current stretching out in glow mode between Mars and Venus. The same applies to the Red Crown. There are likely many more such images, but I’ve chosen these as examples.

Planetary Movements and Mythic Imagery
As Venus and Saturn move outward, they will appear to rise in the sky. Mars, stranded behind the asteroid belt, cannot follow and will appear to descend to the bottom of the crescent. This gives rise to images like the Bull of Heaven, the Mountain of Heaven, and Karl’s Tongue — as well as an Aztec deity whose name escapes me because I can’t pronounce it. These are plasma discharges seen from Mars as it moves away and its connection with Earth comes under stress. Mars will move downward, and now you have perfect mythic imagery. It may be right — I think it links up quite nicely.

Saturn Pushes Uranus and Neptune
Saturn forms a connection with Uranus but then continues to move outward. Neptune has a much higher SCD than Uranus, as does Saturn. Between the two of them, they will squeeze Uranus to one side. The current will be in glow mode — I’ve taken liberties with the color red, as you’ll see shortly. As this continues, Saturn moves toward Jupiter, pushing Uranus and Neptune further out. Both connecting currents are in glow mode. Only Jupiter has a higher SCD than all of them and will repel Neptune even farther out than Uranus.

The Arc Around Jupiter
Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune will arc all the way around Jupiter until they reach their current orbits. During this time, Uranus is stuck between Saturn and Neptune — both with higher SCD values — and is constantly bombarded from either side. Jupiter joins in as they arc around, so Uranus suffers quite a battering. Eventually, they all line up and slot in beyond Jupiter, occupying their current orbits.

Saturn Devours His Children
Another way to view this sequence is from Earth — a powerful image and a central theme: Saturn devouring his children. That’s why I colored them red, to make them look like umbilical cords — artistic license. That’s what you would have seen in the night sky: three planets moving around, spawning endless child-sacrificial cults of Al-Malik and other Canaanite deities. All in a vain attempt to appease Saturn and bring back his golden age — by sacrificing their own children. Such is the way of the world.

Final Act: Venus’s Dark Secret
Now we enter the final act. The dragon roars — and enters Venus, the beautiful princess with a dark secret. After the fall of Saturn, Venus is forced to connect with Jupiter, which has a much higher SCD. Jupiter pushes Venus back toward the asteroid belt. Venus must now make a connection to the asteroid belt so it can repel it. In doing so, Venus undergoes a full reversal of its axial rotation and becomes clockwise.

Venus’s Spiral and Wobble
Venus can’t stay out beyond the asteroid belt. She’s simply too small to carry enough surface charge to maintain a position out there. So what does Venus do? She doesn’t have many choices.
One thing she will start to do is wobble and spiral — again, possible sources of ancient imagery. Venus can’t remain out there.

The Exiles and Pluto’s Role
The other three exiles — Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune — will have had massive amounts of charge poured onto them from the Sun to maintain their positions outside Jupiter. I added Pluto at this point — not for any particular reason, but I suspect it was originally a moon of either Uranus or Neptune. In the chaos and mayhem, it was acquired by the Sun as a planet.

Axial Reversals and Uranus’s Tilt
You’ll also see that Venus, Uranus, and Neptune have undergone full reversals of their axial rotations. But in all the electrical chaos and mayhem, I don’t think those reversals made much difference — except for Uranus, which suffered the most. That’s why Uranus has such an extreme axial tilt.

Venus’s Choice and Initial Flight Path
So what is Venus going to do? Venus has a choice: she can either ascend above the asteroid belt or descend below it on her way back to the Sun. She chose to grow up — to rise above whatever circumstances dictate. This is her initial flight path. As she’s forced back toward the asteroid belt, she still maintains connections to Mars and Jupiter. The northern hemispheric connection to Mars provides the shortest electrical path, so most of the charge Venus tries to dump onto Mars flows through that northern current. This is why Mars has a much thinner crust on its northern hemisphere than on its southern one. If Venus had chosen to go below the asteroid belt, the situation would be reversed, and the southern hemisphere would be thinner.

Venus’s Close Encounter with Mars
Venus will pass extremely close to Mars — so close that it raises the possibility of thunderbolts creating features like Olympus Mons, and even a massive electric arc capable of carving out Valles Marineris. Venus would have been highly charged and dangerously near.

Venus Becomes a Rogue Planet
When Venus eventually gets past the asteroid belt, her connections begin to break up. First, her link to Jupiter dissolves. Then, as she moves past Mars, her connection to Mars also disappears. The Sun now has to rearrange all of its current connections to accommodate this shift. Without any connections, Venus becomes a rogue planet — no ties to the Sun, no ties to any other body. She threatens system stability. So the Sun treats her as it would a comet. This is when Venus becomes a comet.

The Fiery Dragon
For a short time, Venus will be massive in the sky — absolutely enormous. She will light up into one large, blue, fiery dragon. As she turns from Mars toward Earth, Earth’s higher surface charge density (SCD) keeps Venus at a slightly greater distance than Mars did. There won’t be electric arcs, but there will be plenty of the dragon’s fiery breath. The exposed hydrocarbons in Venus’s thin crust, ignited by powerful electric discharges, will rain down upon paradise in rivers of burning oil — before she passes over and moves toward the Sun. It is now time for the princess to lift her veil and reveal her dark and terrible secrets. She is the first dragon — mother of all dragons — the biggest fiery beast ever seen. But that’s not quite the end.

Earth’s Axial Reversal
As Venus passes Earth, the Sun must accommodate her between Mercury and Earth. This means Earth’s connection to the Sun shifts upward. As shown in the original heliosphere diagrams, Earth now has an anti-clockwise axial rotation. When Venus moves into that position, Earth suffers a complete reversal of its axial rotation. This, I say, is Velikovsky’s elusive doomsday event. There are plenty of historical references to this — from Herodotus onward, to the Egyptian empire’s records of the Sun shifting from one part of the sky to another.

Global Cataclysm
What happens when we get a full reversal of axial rotation? I suggest volcanic and seismic activity everywhere — all at once. It will truly look like the end of the world. The world’s oceans will stop and lay waste to their western shores, before streaming back in full ocean tsunamis to devastate their eastern seaboards — as will every other body of water on the planet. This is the hellish nightmare that mankind locked away in a little box and buried deep within our collective psyche. Jung and Velikovsky only managed to pry open the lid slightly and glimpse the horrors inside.

Mythic Echoes and the Gorgon’s Gaze
I’m sure you all have your own thoughts on the doomsday event, so I’ll only mention a couple of things. If you were one of the survivors of this global apocalypse and came upon a scene like Pompeii — and there would have been many — you could be forgiven for thinking that the snake-tressed goddess who flew across the sky a few days earlier had simply looked down and turned the people to stone. I say that’s the origin of the Gorgon’s petrifying gaze. It fits very nicely. And if no one’s claimed it — I am.

Earth’s Earlier Reversal and the Moon
Secondly, if Earth captured the Moon when it was part of the Saturn system, then — as we’ve seen in earlier analysis — capturing a moon causes your axial rotation to jump and change. So at some point in the past — tens, hundreds, or millions of years ago — Earth, I say, suffered another full reversal. I’ve tried to raise this point with geologists regarding global tectonics, and nobody has any thoughts on the possibility of a full axial reversal. Mainstream science simply won’t accept it, and there’s no work at all on it. But I think such an event could be capable of widening ocean basins — if not opening them up. I could be wrong. I’m not a geologist.

From Abundance to Scarcity
The other thing I’d like to mention is that when this doomsday event occurred, society had been built on a baseline of permanent resource abundance. That suddenly came crashing down into a baseline of resource scarcity. How does society cope with that? This is the problem: when you have scarcity, you must acquire resources. And to do that, you learn to lie, deceive, cheat, steal — and, if necessary, kill. Going from a position of abundance, where everyone was happy and everything was rosy in the garden, you get an immediate descent into barbarism. A traumatized, scattered population becomes isolated bands. Bands become tribes. And the stage is set for resource wars — lots and lots of them — until conflict becomes an accepted way of life, and violence the natural way of resolving it. You can trace an awful lot of our evils all the way back to that moment, in my opinion.

[Lloyd]

435232

SATURN & SOLAR SYSTEMS CRASH
Wayne Byrne's Saturn Theory Video
I just made a post with images at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... tems-crash.
I hope to get time to review the video somewhat before long.
Has anyone here seen that video already? It's 9 years old. Too bad I didn't see it sooner.

[Lloyd]

436339

WHAT EXPLODED NEAR THE SUN & SHOWERED EARTH WITH COSMIC RAYS IN ANCIENT TIMES?

I came across this article today when I posted my weekly Sci New Blog update. It suspects a supernova 10 million years ago sent cosmic rays to Earth, producing 10Be which ended up on sea mounts etc. in the Pacific. I show that it could more easily have been from a Brown Dwarf Saturn flare or flares.
https://phys.org/news/2025-09-clues-dee ... ebris.html

BERYLLIUM-10 SPIKE IN PACIFIC
A German research team led by Dominik Koll discovered unusually high levels of the isotope beryllium-10 (10Be) in Pacific deep-sea crusts. Since 10Be is produced when cosmic rays strike Earth’s atmosphere, the excess raised the question of whether it was caused by a massive stellar explosion near the solar system. To test this, Efrem Maconi and colleagues at the University of Vienna traced the paths of the Sun and 2,725 nearby star clusters over the past 20 million years. Their calculations showed a 68% chance that a supernova occurred within 100 parsecs (about 326 light-years) of Earth during the same period as the detected 10Be spike. They also identified 19 clusters capable of producing such an explosion, with ASCC 20 and OCSN 61 in the Orion region being the most likely candidates. The results, published in Astronomy & Astrophysics (2025), support a supernova origin for the beryllium anomaly but are not yet conclusive. Scientists must find matching 10Be signals in other oceanic or terrestrial samples to confirm a global cosmic event. If the anomaly appears only in the Pacific, it would more likely be due to geological or ocean current shifts rather than an astrophysical cause.

PACIFIC LOCATIONS
The beryllium-10 anomaly was discovered in deep-sea ferromanganese crust samples from the Central and Northern Pacific Ocean. The samples were collected from locations nearly 3,000 kilometers apart within these Pacific regions, demonstrating a consistent spike in 10Be around 10 million years ago. This suggests the anomaly spreads throughout much of the Pacific Ocean, though further studies are needed to confirm whether this is a global phenomenon or more regionally confined to the Pacific.

ROCK CRUSTS
The deep-sea ferromanganese crust samples where the beryllium-10 anomaly was found are typically located at depths ranging from about 1,100 meters to over 5,000 meters in the Pacific Ocean. These crusts form on seamounts, ridges, and plateaus far from shore, often on rock outcrops swept clean by currents and sediment-free areas. The crusts can be found on slopes and flat tops of seamounts, such as the Takuyo-Daigo Seamount in the northwestern Pacific, at these deep ocean depths. These crusts occur mainly on isolated volcanic structures in the deep ocean, typically between about 800 and 2,500 meters depth, where strong currents keep the rock surfaces free of sediment. The presence of oxygen-minimum zones in certain regions also supports their formation. In addition to iron and manganese, the crusts concentrate trace metals like cobalt, nickel, platinum, tellurium, and rare earth elements, making them of interest for potential mineral resources. Deep-sea ferromanganese crusts are mineral deposits primarily made up of iron and manganese oxides. They form by the slow precipitation of metal oxides directly from seawater onto hard rock surfaces such as seamounts and underwater mountains. The crusts accumulate over millions of years, growing at rates of just a few millimeters per million years. Their formation is influenced by ocean water properties, currents, and biological activity that affect metal transport and deposition. Sometimes hydrothermal activity on the seafloor contributes additional elements but is not the primary formation mechanism.

SPIKE LAYER IN THIN CRUSTS
The 10Be concentration anomaly was found within specific depth layers of ferromanganese crusts, measured in millimeters below the crust surface. In one key crust sample (VA13/2-237KD), the 10Be levels deviated from expected radioactive decay patterns notably at depths between about 23 to 36 millimeters below the crust surface. This depth interval corresponds to an age of approximately 9 to 11.5 million years ago. Similar anomalies were observed at comparable depths — around 16 to 18 millimeters — in another crust sample from the North Pacific Ocean about 2,900 kilometers away. The profiles showed a peak 10Be concentration indicating an event or deposit from roughly 10 million years ago embedded within the layers of the crust. The crusts grow very slowly (around 1.5 to 2.4 millimeters per million years), so the 10Be anomaly is preserved as a distinct "layer" or zone within the sediments tens of millimeters down from the surface. The surface of the crust shows more gradual changes due to current seawater exchange and slower 10Be accumulation.

10BE CONCENTRATIONS
Pacific Ocean Miocene 10Be spike --- 7×10^10 atoms/gram --- Anomaly layer (2 times normal ocean concentration)
Normal deep-sea crusts --- 3−4×10^10 atoms/gram --- Long-term baseline
Pelagic marine sediments --- ∼10^9 to 10^10 atoms/gram --- More dilution, faster sedimentation
Continental/lake sediments --- ∼10^8 to 10^9 atoms/gram --- Rapid burial, terrestrial mixing
Riverine/soil/shelf sediments --- ∼3×10^7 to 5×10^8 atoms/gram --- Fast burial, chemical cycling 

DO SOLAR FLARES PRODUCE COSMIC RAYS?
Yes, solar flares do produce cosmic rays, specifically a subset called solar cosmic rays (SCRs) or solar energetic particles (SEPs). These cosmic rays are high-energy charged particles—mostly protons, electrons, and heavier ions—that are accelerated during explosive events on the Sun such as solar flares and coronal mass ejections (CMEs).

DO RED OR BROWN DWARF FLARES PRODUCE COSMIC RAYS?
Yes, red or brown dwarf flares can produce high-energy particles similar to cosmic rays. Brown dwarfs, which are objects intermediate between stars and giant planets, have magnetic fields and convective interiors that can generate flares emitting X-rays and energetic particles.

COMPARING COSMIC RAY PRODUCTION
Source ------- Distance -------- Cosmic Ray Flux --------- Duration
Supernova --- 20 Million AU ---- 8.4×10^−3 ergs/cm^2/s --- 10^9 s (100 years)
Solar Flare + CME --- 1 AU ----- 3.55×10^0 ergs/cm^2/s --- 1.2×10^3 s (20 min)
Red Dwarf Flare --- .03 AU ----- 2.67×10^−8 ergs/cm^2/s --- 3.6×10^3 s (1 hour)
Brown Dwarf Flare --- .03 AU --- 3.42×10^2 ergs/cm^2/s --- 1.2×10^3 s (20 min)
Normal Level --- 0 AU ---------- ∼2×10^−2 ergs/cm^2/s --- (5,000 years)

CONCLUSION: SATURN FLARE
The Brown Dwarf Flare is shown to produce the most cosmic rays per second (Flux), about 100 times more than solar flares and 100,000 times more than a supernova. AI says unlike red dwarfs, which can produce repeated flares over days, months, or years (superflare activity), brown dwarfs show less frequent, less sustained flaring behavior. Exceptionally strong brown dwarf flares lasting more than a day are very rare but have been observed in some cases, with durations on the order of 1-2 days reported in special cases. Also, they can flare multiple times within months or weeks. - PS, actually, it looks like a supernova at 100 parsecs would produce somewhat fewer cosmic rays than we normally receive all the time. So it wouldn't even double our present level.

[Lloyd]

436945

ANCIENT RHINO IN WASHINGTON LAVA

I just updated my online book at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... salt-group to add a new video link showing a guy going to the hole in the lava cliff where fossils of a rhino were found in 1935. The guy actually went inside the hole and filmed the inside, showing where the head, horn, legs etc. had been when the lava was still hot (and the rhino was still intact and dead). The lava made a pretty good mold for the rhino.

[Lloyd]

439361

DID THE ANCIENTS HAVE SATELLITES?

I wrote this post 2 days ago at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... satellites. It's a partial transcript of a 5 year old video about a theory that a number of noteworthy ancient megalithic sites are located on a line that goes all the way around the world under a unique 2-day orbit where satellites can go over the same path every 2 days. I copied most of the images to the post, which included many of the ancient sites. The author showed other orbital paths, but the 2-day orbit is the only one that can go over the same path every 2 days. Most others go a few degrees longitude off-course each day or so. The theory suggests that satellites in the 2-day orbit could beam solar energy etc. down to the surface every 2 days. I know that's pretty vague. People have apparently been wondering for some time why all those ancient structures are all on that path and that seems like it might be the most plausible explanation that I've heard of. I don't know that I've heard of any other possible explanations, but I haven't thought of any other explanations either. Maybe ancient aliens were orbiting the Earth in ancient times on that orbit and they communicated with Earthlings each time they went over head. By the way, the author also said the 2-day orbit would keep a satellite out of the van Allen radiation belts and out of Earth's magnetic field. So the aliens might have liked that. Right?

[Lloyd]

447832

VERY ANCIENT PERUVIAN CIVILIZATION ETC

History is Wrong | Peru’s 15,000+ Year Old Legacy (Full Documentary)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSokMd7cuzE

AI says: The video is primarily confined to a detailed discussion of Peru and its ancient civilizations. Throughout the exploration, the focus stays on Peru’s coastal and inland archaeological sites, especially those tied to the Norte Chico civilization, the Casma and Supe Valleys, and other key regions within the country. The investigation delves into monumental pyramids, sunken plazas, U-shaped temples, and celestial alignments found across diverse Peruvian landscapes, revealing a vast interconnected civilization that shaped the origins of complex society in the Americas. Discussions about timelines, architectural styles, and cultural interconnections revolve solely around Peruvian sites, without extending significantly beyond the country’s borders. The video frames Peru as the cradle of one of the world’s earliest civilizations, situating its discoveries as essential in rewriting the history not only of the Americas but of global ancient civilization, yet always grounded firmly within Peru’s geographical and cultural context.

I first heard some months ago that I think Caral-Supe in Peru is even older than ancient Egypt and Sumeria. Now this video finds that a civilization covered much of Peru, maybe starting even earlier. I date the Great Flood at c. 3200 BC and the Younger Dryas at c. 2500 BC, but conventional dating puts the Younger Dryas at 11-14 millennia ago. I figure it's slightly possible that their dating is right, but I'd say my dating is 70% probable. But either way, the end of the Ice Age was much more recent than used to be thought possible.

[00:00] – Introduction | Peru’s Hidden Cradle of Civilization
The video starts with a compelling introduction to an ambitious investigation along the coast of Peru, focusing not on a single lost city but rather the ghost of an entire, vast civilization. It challenges the established textbook narrative, pointing instead to hidden clues in stone structures, architectural footprints, and celestial alignments spread over wide regions. The narrator embarks on a journey to uncover how this lost cradle of civilization once spanned much further and deeper into history than previously understood, resting on evidence that rewrites the known history of the Americas, dating back well before the accepted timeline.

[01:24] – Rewriting History at the End of the Ice Age
The investigation traces the origins of complex civilization to the end of the last Ice Age, over 15,000 years ago, when early human activity on the Peruvian coast began. This profound rewrite pushes back human settlement and architectural development to a time long before agriculture or pottery shaped societies, indicating that coastal communities were advanced in engineering and ritual expression. The ancient builders created monumental stone and earthen forms that speak of a deeply ingrained cultural tradition—one that systematically shaped landscapes with sunken plazas and temples aligned to celestial events, marking a radical departure from prior isolationist views.

[02:00] – Los Aldas | The Unfinished Temple and Sunken Plaza
The video highlights the site of Las Aldas, an unfinished temple complex on the Peruvian coastline, dated over 5000 years old. This monumental site contains the distinct architectural feature of a sunken circular plaza—clear fingerprints of the Norte Chico culture. Its precise alignment with the June solstice sunrise shows early Andean peoples practiced celestial observation. Although construction was never completed, possibly due to a colossal tsunami or El Niño event, centuries later, subsequent cultures returned to this site, building settlements on the mountain and integrating their temples with the natural bedrock, emphasizing the continuity and respect for ancestral sites in Andean societies.

[05:20] – Caral-Supe and the Birth of Cotton Civilization
The narrator reveals the Norte Chico civilization centered around Caral in the Supe Valley as one of the world’s earliest complex societies. Flourishing over 4000 years ago, it is dubbed the “Cotton Civilization” because its people cultivated cotton inland, producing fishing nets critical for exploiting the Pacific's marine resources. This coastal-inland trade not only fueled early urban development but also established one of the planet’s first peaceful, interconnected economies characterized by monumental pyramids, sunken plazas, and ritual spaces. Caral’s society was remarkably hierarchical yet lacking evidence of warfare, indicating a distinct innovation in social organization.

[07:36] – Discovery of Pampa de las Llamas-Moxeke
Inland in the Casma Valley, the massive site of Pampa de las Llamas-Moxeke emerges as a key player in early Andean urbanism. This sprawling stone complex, with administrative and storage centers, reveals sophisticated socio-political structures flourishing nearly 4000 years ago. Archaeological evidence indicates deliberate urban planning with geometric room arrangements supporting large populations. The site’s sunken circular plaza further connects it with contemporaneous cultures on the coast, highlighting a widespread religious or cosmological system. Its development shatters older notions of isolated valley civilizations and paints a larger, linked cultural horizon.

[11:12] – Shifting the Timeline of Andean Civilization
The video underscores how discoveries in the Casma Valley around Sechín Alto and neighboring ruins have dramatically shifted timelines backward, proving that advanced architecture and societal complexity existed long before previously thought. Multiple lost sunken plazas indicate shared urban models persisting across centuries and valleys. These findings challenge the assumption that Andean civilization matured only late in prehistory, emphasizing instead an early and continuous trajectory of urban and ceremonial development linked with complex socio-political hierarchies.

[19:12] – Sechín Bajo Discovery | The Oldest Frieze in the Americas
The remarkable discovery of Sechín Bajo reveals a circular plaza and a grand frieze dating to around 3600 BCE, marking it as one of the oldest monumental structures in the Americas. The intricately carved relief depicts mythological figures and warriors, standing as evidence of highly developed ceremonial art and societal organization. This plaster frieze, despite damage from ancient earthquakes, provides a tangible connection to early Andean culture, affirming that monumental artistic and architectural traditions unfolded here well before classic civilizations like Chavín or later Inca emerged.

[20:34] – Caral and the Sacred Blueprint
The video revisits Caral to emphasize its role as the architectural blueprint for Andean civilization. Caral’s layout includes sunken circular plazas, U-shaped temple complexes, and pyramids that established design principles replicated for millennia. This “sacred blueprint” underlined religious ideology as foundational, intertwining astronomy with ritual. Caral’s combination of monumental architecture with economic infrastructure laid the groundwork for an extensive network of interwoven Andean cultures along the coast and inland, showcasing sustainable civilization building in preceramic South America.

[21:05] – Era de Pando | Pyramids Older Than Egypt
In the Fortaleza Valley, Era de Pando further surprises by predating Egyptian pyramids by over a thousand years. This extensive necropolis and temple complex underscores the Andes as a cutting-edge center for religious, engineering, and social innovations. Numerous pyramidal structures and ceremonial buildings constructed here attest to sophisticated experimentation with sacred architecture, while archaeological evidence highlights advanced understanding of airflow and long-term urban planning, portraying a culture deeply invested in the spiritual and social order maintained by pyramid-based elites.

[26:34] – Fortaleza Valley Pyramids | Celestial Temples
The video explores additional Fortaleza Valley temples featuring precise celestial alignments and U-shaped designs. These temples, dedicated to solar observations, include the Elephant Stone—a central monolith forming part of an ancient solstitial calendar unique to the region. The pyramids’ orientation and layout embody a cultural emphasis on controlling ritual space tied to the sun and seasons, connected architecturally across valleys to other cities like Caral. Such alignment suggests the temples were temples of cosmology and governance, expressing enlightenment linked to skywatching within urban centers.

[30:28] – Elephant Stone and U-Shaped Temples
Elaborating on the Elephant Stone, the video documents its remarkable sculptural similarity to an elephant and its placement within a ring of monoliths, central to the U-shaped temple complexes typical in the region. This architectural feature recurs across the Casma and Supe Valleys, suggesting a shared cultural language in building. Excavations identify strata indicating multiple occupation phases above and beneath this stone plaza, proving long traditions of adding to and reusing sacred spaces. Ground-penetrating radar confirms numerous buried structures, showing these were not isolated temples but part of a vast ceremonial network.

[39:33] – Layers of Lost Civilizations
The narrator discusses evidence of repeated societal occupation and rebuilding that results in multiple layers of habitation at key sites. Pottery fragments, metallurgy traces, and architectural remnants demonstrate distinct successive cultures, each adapting and reshaping the sacred landscape. Such stratification proves a long, complex history of cultural continuity and transformation rather than singular cultural bursts. Sites like Caballete showcase violent looting yet reveal unexpected artifacts and structural continuity, challenging assumptions about archaeological destruction and cultural resilience.

[46:08] – Cerro Porvenir and Early Radiocarbon Dates
Cerrajón Porvenir in the Casma Valley yields radiocarbon dates between 3750 and 3400 BCE, making it one of the earliest known monumental sites. Despite evidence of catastrophic flood damage, the retaining walls, stepped pyramids, and sunken plazas indicate architectural sophistication. More remarkable are the lower strata predating ceramics, revealing semi-sedentary agricultural communities capable of centralized planning. This site strengthens the narrative of a shared Andean tradition and suggests early environmental challenges shaped cultural responses and architectural adaptations.

[49:01] – Interconnected Civilizations of Casma and Supe
Through drone imagery and fieldwork, the video demonstrates that the previously viewed Casma and Supe Valleys were not isolated cultural zones but part of an interconnected civilization. The presence of identical ceremonial architecture, trade artifacts, and overlapping timelines reveal sophisticated socio-political networks. Communication between coastal and inland centers allowed exchange of resources like cotton, fish, and ceramics, supporting a highly organized society sustained by ritual and commerce. This regional integration redefines the notion of the cradle of Andean civilization as a vast, multi-valley network.

[50:59] – Discovery of an Undocumented Temple
The exploration of a newly discovered, previously undocumented temple between Casma and Supe emerged as a key breakthrough in linking cultural traditions. Hidden amid rugged terrain and under looted layers, this temple contains a sunken circular plaza and U-shaped architecture, reinforcing the hypothesis of a unified Andean religious tradition. Its alignment to solstitial sunrises confirms intentional celestial design across valleys. This discovery fills geographical gaps, physically uniting regions, and moves the discourse from speculation to evidence of a continuous Andean civilization stretching over wide areas.

[57:34] – Pottery and Layers of Occupation
Examinations of ceramic shards unearthed at multiple sites reveal evolving pottery styles — from rudimentary plain ware to sophisticated pressed molds — indicating distinct cultural phases spanning millennia. Alongside ceramics, organic materials such as wood and bone fragments hint at ritual burials and habitation practices. This layered stratigraphy highlights continuous occupation, population shifts, and cultural adaptation. These findings underscore the Andean peoples’ respect for ancestry and the repeated repurposing of sacred spaces for new ceremonial functions, embodying a cyclical view of history embedded in stone and earth.

[01:01:20] – Huaca Prieta | 15,000-Year-Old Ice Age Origins
The investigation culminates at the remarkable Huaca Prieta site on Peru’s northern coast, where radiocarbon dating extends the origins of complex human settlement to 15,000 years ago—before the end of the last Ice Age. Initial occupation involved fishing and gathering, demonstrated by primitive tools and marine remains. Later, between 7,500 and 8,000 years ago, inhabitants began constructing layered mounds and notably the earliest known sunken circular plaza, hinting at the beginning of Andean religious and architectural traditions. Huaca Prieta represents one of the first planned communal projects in the Americas and the foundational source for the Andean sacred city blueprint that endured for millennia.

[01:05:59] – Ancient Geoglyphs Older Than Nazca
Further investigation identified enormous ancient geoglyphs—spirals, human faces, and linear patterns—etched into the Peruvian desert long before the famed Nazca Lines. These aerial-visible designs reside in proximity to key Norte Chico sites, suggesting sustained ritual and symbolic landscape modification predating previous estimates. The geoglyphs’ prominence attests to highly organized social and religious activity focused on sky and earth connections, reinforcing evidence of continuous cultural evolution and refined cosmological knowledge in Andean prehistory.

[01:10:02] – Conclusion | Rewriting the Cradle of Civilization in Peru
In conclusion, the film argues for a fundamental rewriting of Andean civilization’s timeline and scale. The evidence amassed—from Las Aldas and Caral to Sechín Bajo, Pampa de las Llamas-Moxeke, and Huaca Prieta—demonstrates that Peru was the seat of one of the world’s oldest and most enduring civilizations. This civilization’s hallmark architectural forms, social systems, and astronomical knowledge predate and rival those of Egypt and Mesopotamia, unified by sunken circular plazas, U‑shaped temples, and celestial alignments. These discoveries irrevocably alter our understanding of cultural origins in the Americas and humanity itself.

[Lloyd]

PS, Thunderbolts.info on Stellar Distances: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2011/0 ... chapter-1/

[Maol]

Have you looked into this author?

https://drumsofatlantis.com/james-churchwards-mu

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(mythi ... continent)

https://sacred-texts.com/atl/ssm/index.htm

https://archive.org/details/the-lost-continent-of-mu/

[Lloyd]

RE CONTINENT OF MU

I read quite a bit about the sunken continent of Mu long ago, probably over 40 years ago. I consider Mu to have been a possible former land mass in the Pacific, but not probable. Mike Fischer's findings at https://NewGeology.us indicate that part of the continent of Antarctica seems to have originated from an asteroid that landed about where Siberia is now, but slid over the Moho layer all the way to where Antarctica is now. This occurred before a larger asteroid collided with Earth and formed the supercontinent of Pangaea. More recently at the time of the Great Flood, which I date to c. 3,200 BC, another asteroid struck Pangaea and split it apart into the present continents, with one part colliding with the original part of Antarctica, thus making Antarctica bigger. So Mike's theory is a little incompatible with the theory of Mu, although not completely. And Mike's theory might be wrong, though I think it's the best theory so far.

If significant evidence is ever gathered from the sea floor where Mu could have been, then I'll consider it more probable than I do now. However, the evidence used to support the Mu theory may be valuable even if Mu didn't actually exist. In my studies of ancient cataclysms and ancient prehistory, I haven't come across anything relating to Mu, that I know of.