Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
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nick c
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Would not Betegeuse, if it were on the outskirts of our solar system, show an extremely large parallax as the Earth moved on its orbit?
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nick c
- Posts: 3075
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Would not Betelgeuse, if it were a dwarf star on the outskirts of our solar system, show an extremely large parallax as the Earth moved on its orbit?Lloyd wrote:Note that the mainstream thinks Betelgeuse is over a billion miles in diameter, whereas the author of the paper finds it to be about 70,000 miles, which is a little smaller than Saturn. He calls it a Red Dwarf, but we would say a Brown Dwarf. So a Red Supergiant reduces to a Brown Dwarf and the distance reduces from 310 ly to 3,200 AU.
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Is 64 arcseconds large? AI says the parallax angle at 3,200 AU is 64 arcseconds. That's 4 arcseconds more than one arcminute. When Venus is at its closest distance, it's 66 arcseconds. So it's close to Venus' apparent diameter. The Moon is about 31 arcminutes. The whole sky is 180 degrees, which is 10,800 arcminutes. It's probably easiest to think of dividing the Moon's diameter into 31 equal parts and one of those parts is the parallax angle of an object at 3,200 AU. If the stars around Betelgeuse are moving about the same amount as Betelgeuse, then the movement of Betelgeuse wouldn't be distinguishable. I believe photos are taken of the stars about monthly and distances between them are compared to detect movement.Nick: Would not Betelgeuse, if it were a dwarf star on the outskirts of our solar system, show an extremely large parallax as the Earth moved on its orbit?
This website used to have an article saying that the maximum accurate distance detectable is about 350 ly, if I remember right. It said the margin of error is too large. Betelgeuse is supposedly 310, which is awfully close to that limit.
If you read the article I was quoting, you may find further reasons that the author may be right.
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Lloyd
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- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
411911
EV'S CHRONICLE OF THE SATURN THEORY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ktjbOnYUZw (TRANSCRIPT)
I have been asked to offer a brief history of the Saturn theory.
Of course, the phrase "Saturn theory" means different things to different people, and thus it is necessary to distinguish between the various competing scenarios. Perhaps the one thing all of these historical reconstructions have in common is the idea that the planet Saturn played a pivotal role in recent Earth history and in the development of human civilization.
The catastrophist Saturn theory can be traced to Immanuel Velikovsky, who, during a short period of intense research in the 1940s, stumbled across ideas that would eventually form the central plotline of Worlds in Collision, a runaway bestseller in 1950. Among his many novel claims was that Earth might have been a satellite of a sunlike Saturn during an early epoch in prehistory remembered as the Golden Age. Velikovsky had originally planned to include a section on his Saturn hypothesis in Worlds in Collision but eventually thought better of it, reserving the discussion for a later time. Alas, that time never came. Velikovsky died in 1979 with the Saturn material still collecting dust in his study.
It was subsequently published in a slipshod fashion in 2020 to a less-than-enthusiastic public. A golden opportunity, as it were, had been lost.
Independently of Velikovsky, two distinguished historians of science—Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend—published the notoriously eccentric and nearly inscrutable book Hamlet's Mill in 1969. These two were the first serious scholars to argue that the great heroes of myth are to be identified with the planets. In a passage that would serve as a rallying cry for catastrophists, they wrote:
"The real actors on the stage of the universe are very few, if their adventures are many. The most ancient treasure, in Aristotle's words, that was left to us by our predecessors of the high and far-off times was the idea that the gods are really stars and that there are no others. The forces reside in the starry heavens, and all the stories, characters, and adventures narrated by mythology concentrate on the active power among the stars—who are the planets."
A central thesis of Hamlet's Mill maintained that the planet Saturn played a surprisingly prominent role in ancient myth and religion. Among the authors’ numerous novel claims was that Saturn had some connection with the northern polar region:
"In China, Saturn has the title 'genie du pôle' as the god who presides over the center—the same title which is given to the pole star. What has Saturn, the far-out planet, to do with the pole?"
Strict uniformitarians, de Santillana and von Dechend sought to explain Saturn's role as god of the pole and measure of time by reference to an arcane hypothesis involving the precession of the equinoxes, the knowledge of which they argued extended back well into the Neolithic period. The collapse of the Golden Age and Saturn's fall from power, in their understanding, had nothing whatsoever to do with celestial catastrophe. Rather, such myths reflected a sophisticated understanding of the shifting of the equinoxes over time.
Despite the immense erudition displayed, Hamlet's Mill represents a theoretical dead end—a last-ditch and ultimately futile effort to resurrect the Pan-Babylonian hypothesis, which held that cosmogonic myth was inspired by advanced astronomical knowledge during the prehistoric period. In reality, there is zero credible evidence for the sort of sophisticated astronomical knowledge assumed by de Santillana and von Dechend during the prehistoric period, or much prior to the Greek period for that matter.
Velikovsky's most gifted and diligent defender during the 1960s and 1970s was the political scientist Alfred de Grazia, whose special series in American Behavioral Scientist in 1963 brought Velikovsky's ideas to a new generation of readers. This issue was later released as the book The Velikovsky Affair.
Working in collaboration with the Canadian astronomer Earl Milton, de Grazia produced a major work entitled Solaria Binaria, which expanded on Velikovsky's ideas on Saturn. This book, little known today, is well deserving of revisiting, as it previews many of the Electric Universe ideas later championed by Wal Thornhill. It also complements several of David Talbott's ideas on the evolution of the polar configuration.
De Grazia and Milton proposed that Saturn and Earth were once participants in a barbell-like configuration, where several large planets were positioned on either side of Saturn and Earth, thereby ostensibly supplying more stability to the polar configuration. Talbott discussed this problem in 1988 in Aeon:
"More than one physical model, in order to preserve stability—or at least a semblance thereof—would suggest a lineup of planets in the fashion of a tumbling barbell, with the larger orbs balancing the two ends of the planetary assembly and the Earth locked in polar alignment between them. On this theoretical principle, I can express no opinion, though applying the principle to the mythically supported planetary lineup does yield some interesting results."
Renewed interest in Velikovsky led David Talbott, in collaboration with his brother Stephen, to launch the journal Pensee. During this period (1972–1975), Velikovsky shared some of his key ideas regarding Saturn with his personal research assistants Bill Mullen and Jan Samour, who in turn shared them with others in the catastrophist community. It was the synopsis provided by Mullen to David Talbott in 1972 that inspired the latter to launch his own wide-ranging researches into ancient myth and archaeoastronomy, culminating in The Saturn Myth, published by Doubleday in 1980.
If Hamlet's Mill represents the most extensive discussion of Saturn mythology in conventional scholarship, The Saturn Myth represents the gold standard of Saturnist research from the catastrophist perspective. Briefly, Talbott claimed that the Earth had formerly moved in close proximity to Saturn while locked in axial alignment in a polar configuration of planets. It was the visual appearance and catastrophic behavior of Saturn and the other participating celestial bodies that gave rise to the central themes of myth and inspired the astral religions of the prehistoric world.
Saturn's prominent placement in the center of heaven, for example, gave rise to the universal image of the so-called sun cross—a towering celestial apparition that inspired ideas of a world separated into four directions or watered by four rivers, among hundreds of similar mythological interpretations.
Talbott would remain the driving force in the catastrophist community for the next 40 years, producing a number of books, articles, and public presentations. Among his many bold claims, Talbott maintained that he had put forward a unified theory of ancient myth, purporting to explain every major thematic pattern:
Golden Age
Garden of Eden
First Man
Deluge
Dying God
War of the Gods
End of the World
As originally formulated in The Saturn Myth, Talbott's theory rests upon a number of key postulates, the verification of which is crucial for a proper assessment of the hypothesis.
First is the claim that Saturn was the ancient sun god, represented by such familiar figures as the Egyptian Ra, Greek Helios, and Latin Sol.
Second is the claim, borrowed from Hamlet's Mill, that Saturn formerly stood at the pole—specifically in the northern circumpolar heavens.
Third is the claim that each of these propositions is universal in scope and owes nothing to diffusion.
While this is not the place to offer a definitive appraisal of Talbott's Saturn theory, a few comments are in order, if only to summarize the current status of the debate and point the way forward.
The idea that Saturn was a sun of some sort in antiquity is essential to Talbott's entire enterprise. Yet this claim is largely dependent on evidence from ancient Mesopotamia, where the sun god Shamash is identified with Saturn in Babylonian astronomical texts circa 1300 BC. The evidence from later Greek and Latin texts—being both very late and likely derived from Babylonian astronomy—is not especially helpful. Indeed, if it could be shown that the Babylonian datum linking Saturn to the sun was diffused to ancient Greece or Egypt, this would seriously undermine Talbott's thesis.
What is most needed at this point is for Saturn’s identification with the sun to be confirmed in the astronomical texts of the Maya or some other ancient culture immune from the influence of Babylonian astronomy. Until that time, the evidential basis for the Saturn theory will remain tentative in nature and subject to alternative explanation.
The Saturn theory was a recurring point of interest in the Velikovsky-inspired journal Kronos, published from 1975 to 1988. Velikovsky himself published several short articles on the subject, and these articles in turn inspired a bevy of researchers to launch investigations of their own into Saturn’s role in ancient myth—including Eduardo Cardona, Lynn Rose, Fred Jueneman, Harold Tresman, and others.
Some argued that at some point in the last 10,000 years, Saturn had erupted in nova-like fashion, shedding an immense amount of light and flooding the Earth with salt water. It was this extraordinary catastrophe, according to Velikovsky, that gave rise to the festivals of light associated with Saturnalia, Christmas, Hanukkah, and other analogous cultural practices.
Such ideas would have a similar influence on Eduardo Cardona, who produced five large volumes arguing that Saturn exploded as a nova at various geological junctures, leading to the wholesale extinction of large fauna on Earth and causing a myriad of genetic mutations. Never one to shy away from controversy, he went on to claim:
"Electrical discharges from our proto-Saturnian sun were not only responsible for the inception of life, they were also the prime movers behind evolution."
Although Cardona’s understanding of ancient myth leaves much to be desired—at one point or another, he identifies nearly every major god or goddess with Saturn—his various books are still of interest insofar as they point out a host of anomalies in the geological and paleontological record that are very difficult to square with the uniformitarian view.
Cardona’s books are also peppered with brilliant insights from Ralph Juergens, Wal Thornhill, Anthony Peratt, Tom Van Flandern, Rens Vanderloo, and other heavyweights in the catastrophist movement.
Taking a cue from Wal Thornhill—who, following Juergens, argued that the Saturn–Earth system had migrated into this solar system from somewhere outside Pluto—Cardona developed a grandiose theory in which Earth was born from Saturn and remained a satellite of the gas giant for millions of years. After spending countless millennia in an Eden-like environment provided by Saturn’s close proximity and beneficial radiation—wherein plant life flourished and human eyes became adapted to ultraviolet light—all came to an end with Saturn’s removal.
What are we to make of such ideas?
So far as I know, Talbott himself has never endorsed Wal’s proposal that the Saturn–Earth system somehow migrated from outside the solar system. Fascinating as it is to ponder, I have never found this hypothesis either plausible or supported by the historical record. To me, it seems more logical to assume that Saturn and the other planets participating in the polar configuration moved away during the final breakup, with Earth remaining at roughly the same distance from the sun as it occupies at present.
As a trained biologist myself, I fail to see how it makes sense to view the wonderfully adapted life forms on Earth as recent immigrants to the solar system, where they evolved in the absence of the present sun. Instinctual learning patterns evident in such familiar phenomena as bird migration would seem to require a long period of time on Earth in order to develop. No doubt it would be possible to conceive of hundreds of other common-sense-defying objections to the theory defended by Thornhill and Cardona, but I will leave this exercise to another time.
In short, the Saturn theory remains very much a work in progress. A great deal of additional research, testing, and experimentation needs to be done before the hypothesis can be said to rest on a secure foundation.
Among the most pressing issues are the following:
Finding a plausible physical mechanism capable of sustaining a polar configuration of planets. No small feat, as 45 years have come and gone since the publication of The Saturn Myth with virtually no progress on this front.
Confirming Saturn’s particular role in the polar configuration.
Clarifying Saturn’s role in cosmogonic myth, if any.
In the meantime, there is much to celebrate in what has already been achieved. Talbott’s masterful demonstration of the astronomical origins of the primary archetypes of ancient myth remains valid regardless of Saturn’s ultimate role. The catastrophic model of ancient myth likewise is here to stay and represents one of the most significant developments of the 20th century.
The future of comparative mythology—and, in our view, the future of astronomy, plasma cosmology, and the Electric Universe model itself—will need to take such factors into account if Earthlings are ever going to achieve a unified theory of science worthy of the 21st century.
EV'S CHRONICLE OF THE SATURN THEORY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ktjbOnYUZw (TRANSCRIPT)
I have been asked to offer a brief history of the Saturn theory.
Of course, the phrase "Saturn theory" means different things to different people, and thus it is necessary to distinguish between the various competing scenarios. Perhaps the one thing all of these historical reconstructions have in common is the idea that the planet Saturn played a pivotal role in recent Earth history and in the development of human civilization.
The catastrophist Saturn theory can be traced to Immanuel Velikovsky, who, during a short period of intense research in the 1940s, stumbled across ideas that would eventually form the central plotline of Worlds in Collision, a runaway bestseller in 1950. Among his many novel claims was that Earth might have been a satellite of a sunlike Saturn during an early epoch in prehistory remembered as the Golden Age. Velikovsky had originally planned to include a section on his Saturn hypothesis in Worlds in Collision but eventually thought better of it, reserving the discussion for a later time. Alas, that time never came. Velikovsky died in 1979 with the Saturn material still collecting dust in his study.
It was subsequently published in a slipshod fashion in 2020 to a less-than-enthusiastic public. A golden opportunity, as it were, had been lost.
Independently of Velikovsky, two distinguished historians of science—Giorgio de Santillana and Hertha von Dechend—published the notoriously eccentric and nearly inscrutable book Hamlet's Mill in 1969. These two were the first serious scholars to argue that the great heroes of myth are to be identified with the planets. In a passage that would serve as a rallying cry for catastrophists, they wrote:
"The real actors on the stage of the universe are very few, if their adventures are many. The most ancient treasure, in Aristotle's words, that was left to us by our predecessors of the high and far-off times was the idea that the gods are really stars and that there are no others. The forces reside in the starry heavens, and all the stories, characters, and adventures narrated by mythology concentrate on the active power among the stars—who are the planets."
A central thesis of Hamlet's Mill maintained that the planet Saturn played a surprisingly prominent role in ancient myth and religion. Among the authors’ numerous novel claims was that Saturn had some connection with the northern polar region:
"In China, Saturn has the title 'genie du pôle' as the god who presides over the center—the same title which is given to the pole star. What has Saturn, the far-out planet, to do with the pole?"
Strict uniformitarians, de Santillana and von Dechend sought to explain Saturn's role as god of the pole and measure of time by reference to an arcane hypothesis involving the precession of the equinoxes, the knowledge of which they argued extended back well into the Neolithic period. The collapse of the Golden Age and Saturn's fall from power, in their understanding, had nothing whatsoever to do with celestial catastrophe. Rather, such myths reflected a sophisticated understanding of the shifting of the equinoxes over time.
Despite the immense erudition displayed, Hamlet's Mill represents a theoretical dead end—a last-ditch and ultimately futile effort to resurrect the Pan-Babylonian hypothesis, which held that cosmogonic myth was inspired by advanced astronomical knowledge during the prehistoric period. In reality, there is zero credible evidence for the sort of sophisticated astronomical knowledge assumed by de Santillana and von Dechend during the prehistoric period, or much prior to the Greek period for that matter.
Velikovsky's most gifted and diligent defender during the 1960s and 1970s was the political scientist Alfred de Grazia, whose special series in American Behavioral Scientist in 1963 brought Velikovsky's ideas to a new generation of readers. This issue was later released as the book The Velikovsky Affair.
Working in collaboration with the Canadian astronomer Earl Milton, de Grazia produced a major work entitled Solaria Binaria, which expanded on Velikovsky's ideas on Saturn. This book, little known today, is well deserving of revisiting, as it previews many of the Electric Universe ideas later championed by Wal Thornhill. It also complements several of David Talbott's ideas on the evolution of the polar configuration.
De Grazia and Milton proposed that Saturn and Earth were once participants in a barbell-like configuration, where several large planets were positioned on either side of Saturn and Earth, thereby ostensibly supplying more stability to the polar configuration. Talbott discussed this problem in 1988 in Aeon:
"More than one physical model, in order to preserve stability—or at least a semblance thereof—would suggest a lineup of planets in the fashion of a tumbling barbell, with the larger orbs balancing the two ends of the planetary assembly and the Earth locked in polar alignment between them. On this theoretical principle, I can express no opinion, though applying the principle to the mythically supported planetary lineup does yield some interesting results."
Renewed interest in Velikovsky led David Talbott, in collaboration with his brother Stephen, to launch the journal Pensee. During this period (1972–1975), Velikovsky shared some of his key ideas regarding Saturn with his personal research assistants Bill Mullen and Jan Samour, who in turn shared them with others in the catastrophist community. It was the synopsis provided by Mullen to David Talbott in 1972 that inspired the latter to launch his own wide-ranging researches into ancient myth and archaeoastronomy, culminating in The Saturn Myth, published by Doubleday in 1980.
If Hamlet's Mill represents the most extensive discussion of Saturn mythology in conventional scholarship, The Saturn Myth represents the gold standard of Saturnist research from the catastrophist perspective. Briefly, Talbott claimed that the Earth had formerly moved in close proximity to Saturn while locked in axial alignment in a polar configuration of planets. It was the visual appearance and catastrophic behavior of Saturn and the other participating celestial bodies that gave rise to the central themes of myth and inspired the astral religions of the prehistoric world.
Saturn's prominent placement in the center of heaven, for example, gave rise to the universal image of the so-called sun cross—a towering celestial apparition that inspired ideas of a world separated into four directions or watered by four rivers, among hundreds of similar mythological interpretations.
Talbott would remain the driving force in the catastrophist community for the next 40 years, producing a number of books, articles, and public presentations. Among his many bold claims, Talbott maintained that he had put forward a unified theory of ancient myth, purporting to explain every major thematic pattern:
Golden Age
Garden of Eden
First Man
Deluge
Dying God
War of the Gods
End of the World
As originally formulated in The Saturn Myth, Talbott's theory rests upon a number of key postulates, the verification of which is crucial for a proper assessment of the hypothesis.
First is the claim that Saturn was the ancient sun god, represented by such familiar figures as the Egyptian Ra, Greek Helios, and Latin Sol.
Second is the claim, borrowed from Hamlet's Mill, that Saturn formerly stood at the pole—specifically in the northern circumpolar heavens.
Third is the claim that each of these propositions is universal in scope and owes nothing to diffusion.
While this is not the place to offer a definitive appraisal of Talbott's Saturn theory, a few comments are in order, if only to summarize the current status of the debate and point the way forward.
The idea that Saturn was a sun of some sort in antiquity is essential to Talbott's entire enterprise. Yet this claim is largely dependent on evidence from ancient Mesopotamia, where the sun god Shamash is identified with Saturn in Babylonian astronomical texts circa 1300 BC. The evidence from later Greek and Latin texts—being both very late and likely derived from Babylonian astronomy—is not especially helpful. Indeed, if it could be shown that the Babylonian datum linking Saturn to the sun was diffused to ancient Greece or Egypt, this would seriously undermine Talbott's thesis.
What is most needed at this point is for Saturn’s identification with the sun to be confirmed in the astronomical texts of the Maya or some other ancient culture immune from the influence of Babylonian astronomy. Until that time, the evidential basis for the Saturn theory will remain tentative in nature and subject to alternative explanation.
The Saturn theory was a recurring point of interest in the Velikovsky-inspired journal Kronos, published from 1975 to 1988. Velikovsky himself published several short articles on the subject, and these articles in turn inspired a bevy of researchers to launch investigations of their own into Saturn’s role in ancient myth—including Eduardo Cardona, Lynn Rose, Fred Jueneman, Harold Tresman, and others.
Some argued that at some point in the last 10,000 years, Saturn had erupted in nova-like fashion, shedding an immense amount of light and flooding the Earth with salt water. It was this extraordinary catastrophe, according to Velikovsky, that gave rise to the festivals of light associated with Saturnalia, Christmas, Hanukkah, and other analogous cultural practices.
Such ideas would have a similar influence on Eduardo Cardona, who produced five large volumes arguing that Saturn exploded as a nova at various geological junctures, leading to the wholesale extinction of large fauna on Earth and causing a myriad of genetic mutations. Never one to shy away from controversy, he went on to claim:
"Electrical discharges from our proto-Saturnian sun were not only responsible for the inception of life, they were also the prime movers behind evolution."
Although Cardona’s understanding of ancient myth leaves much to be desired—at one point or another, he identifies nearly every major god or goddess with Saturn—his various books are still of interest insofar as they point out a host of anomalies in the geological and paleontological record that are very difficult to square with the uniformitarian view.
Cardona’s books are also peppered with brilliant insights from Ralph Juergens, Wal Thornhill, Anthony Peratt, Tom Van Flandern, Rens Vanderloo, and other heavyweights in the catastrophist movement.
Taking a cue from Wal Thornhill—who, following Juergens, argued that the Saturn–Earth system had migrated into this solar system from somewhere outside Pluto—Cardona developed a grandiose theory in which Earth was born from Saturn and remained a satellite of the gas giant for millions of years. After spending countless millennia in an Eden-like environment provided by Saturn’s close proximity and beneficial radiation—wherein plant life flourished and human eyes became adapted to ultraviolet light—all came to an end with Saturn’s removal.
What are we to make of such ideas?
So far as I know, Talbott himself has never endorsed Wal’s proposal that the Saturn–Earth system somehow migrated from outside the solar system. Fascinating as it is to ponder, I have never found this hypothesis either plausible or supported by the historical record. To me, it seems more logical to assume that Saturn and the other planets participating in the polar configuration moved away during the final breakup, with Earth remaining at roughly the same distance from the sun as it occupies at present.
As a trained biologist myself, I fail to see how it makes sense to view the wonderfully adapted life forms on Earth as recent immigrants to the solar system, where they evolved in the absence of the present sun. Instinctual learning patterns evident in such familiar phenomena as bird migration would seem to require a long period of time on Earth in order to develop. No doubt it would be possible to conceive of hundreds of other common-sense-defying objections to the theory defended by Thornhill and Cardona, but I will leave this exercise to another time.
In short, the Saturn theory remains very much a work in progress. A great deal of additional research, testing, and experimentation needs to be done before the hypothesis can be said to rest on a secure foundation.
Among the most pressing issues are the following:
Finding a plausible physical mechanism capable of sustaining a polar configuration of planets. No small feat, as 45 years have come and gone since the publication of The Saturn Myth with virtually no progress on this front.
Confirming Saturn’s particular role in the polar configuration.
Clarifying Saturn’s role in cosmogonic myth, if any.
In the meantime, there is much to celebrate in what has already been achieved. Talbott’s masterful demonstration of the astronomical origins of the primary archetypes of ancient myth remains valid regardless of Saturn’s ultimate role. The catastrophic model of ancient myth likewise is here to stay and represents one of the most significant developments of the 20th century.
The future of comparative mythology—and, in our view, the future of astronomy, plasma cosmology, and the Electric Universe model itself—will need to take such factors into account if Earthlings are ever going to achieve a unified theory of science worthy of the 21st century.
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nick c
- Posts: 3075
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
There are just a lot of things (with Betelgeuse being an object in the outer solar system) that I cannot wrap my head around! Yes, parallax is only useful for the determining the distance of nearby stars, probably a few hundred light years. But that is of course irrelevant if Betelgeuse is an object that is essentially a part of our solar system.
It seems to me that if it is a small star on the outskirts of our solar system its displacement from its shift in position in relation to background stars (parallax) would be exceptionally large and make it readily apparent that it was a nearby outer solar system object.
And then there is its proper motion, how could it not have moved Betelgeuse to different part of the sky? but Betelgeuse has been a notable feature in Orion since ancient times.
Note, that I am not putting myself in a position of defending the mainstream position on Betelgeuse. It's just that the techniques presently being used to determine the distance of stars would have revealed a first magnitude object that was actually an object in the the outer reaches of the solar system.
As far as Betelgeuse's decreasing in diameter, we must remember that red stars are variable in size and can expand or contract according to the changing electrical environment. The material that composes the atmosphere of a red giant is a tenuous plasma with a density less than 1 ten thousandth of the atmosphere on Earth.
It seems to me that if it is a small star on the outskirts of our solar system its displacement from its shift in position in relation to background stars (parallax) would be exceptionally large and make it readily apparent that it was a nearby outer solar system object.
And then there is its proper motion, how could it not have moved Betelgeuse to different part of the sky? but Betelgeuse has been a notable feature in Orion since ancient times.
Note, that I am not putting myself in a position of defending the mainstream position on Betelgeuse. It's just that the techniques presently being used to determine the distance of stars would have revealed a first magnitude object that was actually an object in the the outer reaches of the solar system.
As far as Betelgeuse's decreasing in diameter, we must remember that red stars are variable in size and can expand or contract according to the changing electrical environment. The material that composes the atmosphere of a red giant is a tenuous plasma with a density less than 1 ten thousandth of the atmosphere on Earth.
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5929
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
416123
BETELGEUSE
Nick, do you disagree that, if Betelgeuse is .05 lightyears away, its parallax is only one arcminute? Or that its motion is 150 degrees away from the Sun (according to the mainstream)? That means it's moving almost directly away, so its revolution around the Sun would not be easily detectable. AI says a body orbiting the Sun at .05 ly would have a period of 178,000 years and in 4,000 years it would move 8 degrees in the sky. The Babylonians are said to have first described the relative position of Betelgeuse in the 2nd millennium BC and the Greeks in the first millennium. Betelgeuse and Bellatrix are the shoulder of Orion and they're 18 degrees apart. So the motion of Betelgeuse would likely only change that to 10 degrees or 26 degrees in 4,000 years. Ptolemy's Almagest in 150 CE is said to have measured the distance between the two stars as 18 degrees, same as now, but that's less than 2,000 years, so the maximum motion should be under 4 degrees. But again, if Betelgeuse is on a highly elliptical orbit and moving away from the Sun, its period would be much longer and its apparent motion much less. Maybe we'll come across more definitive info before long.
Since Earth is said to be directly between the Sun and Betelgeuse around January 2nd or 3rd, one arcminute means that's the difference in Betelgeuse's position in the sky from 3 months before that to 3 months after. The sky has 10,800 arcminutes. The moon is 31 arcminutes in diameter. So divide the moon's diameter into halves, 4ths, 8ths, 16ths and 32nds and one 32nd is slightly smaller than one arcminute.
INTENTIONAL BURIAL OF EGYPT (MONUMENTS)
Robert Schoch's wife just gave a talk at the Cosmic Summit on that topic. I copied much of the transcript and the images from the video at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... l-of-egypt. After seeing that Gobekli Tepe was apparently intentionally buried, she got the idea in Egypt that the mountains of mudbricks seen at many ancient sites there may have been used to intentionally bury them too. Her many photos show good evidence of the mountains of mudbricks near numerous sites. Most have been moved away to the perimeter in order to show and provide access to the beautiful megalithic structures.
Many of the structures appear to have been damaged, as if by a catastrophe, and then re-assembled and then buried, in order to preserve them for posterity. I commented that it seems like an awful lot of work to do to make all those mudbricks just for distant posterity. Nonetheless, it does look like she's right that the bricks were initially packed onto many of the structures. The most impressive to me was, I think at Esna, where 2 obelisks were known to have been initially buried so only their tops were visible. No one knew they were obelisks until the rubble was cleared away. That's a huge amount of bricks.
The Giza plateau appears to have been hit by major electric discharges before it was covered with blocks. She says that's why the plateau was considered sacred and the megalithic structures were built there. She discusses Peratt's finding about plasma figures in ancient rock art and agrees with his suspicion that the Sun became highly electrically active in ancient times, causing global cataclysms. Charles Chandler found that dwarf stars would be more likely to become so active than larger stars, such as the Sun. And Saturn and Jupiter may have been dwarf stars back then.
It took me all day to make that post. I think it was worth it.
BETELGEUSE
Nick, do you disagree that, if Betelgeuse is .05 lightyears away, its parallax is only one arcminute? Or that its motion is 150 degrees away from the Sun (according to the mainstream)? That means it's moving almost directly away, so its revolution around the Sun would not be easily detectable. AI says a body orbiting the Sun at .05 ly would have a period of 178,000 years and in 4,000 years it would move 8 degrees in the sky. The Babylonians are said to have first described the relative position of Betelgeuse in the 2nd millennium BC and the Greeks in the first millennium. Betelgeuse and Bellatrix are the shoulder of Orion and they're 18 degrees apart. So the motion of Betelgeuse would likely only change that to 10 degrees or 26 degrees in 4,000 years. Ptolemy's Almagest in 150 CE is said to have measured the distance between the two stars as 18 degrees, same as now, but that's less than 2,000 years, so the maximum motion should be under 4 degrees. But again, if Betelgeuse is on a highly elliptical orbit and moving away from the Sun, its period would be much longer and its apparent motion much less. Maybe we'll come across more definitive info before long.
Since Earth is said to be directly between the Sun and Betelgeuse around January 2nd or 3rd, one arcminute means that's the difference in Betelgeuse's position in the sky from 3 months before that to 3 months after. The sky has 10,800 arcminutes. The moon is 31 arcminutes in diameter. So divide the moon's diameter into halves, 4ths, 8ths, 16ths and 32nds and one 32nd is slightly smaller than one arcminute.
INTENTIONAL BURIAL OF EGYPT (MONUMENTS)
Robert Schoch's wife just gave a talk at the Cosmic Summit on that topic. I copied much of the transcript and the images from the video at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... l-of-egypt. After seeing that Gobekli Tepe was apparently intentionally buried, she got the idea in Egypt that the mountains of mudbricks seen at many ancient sites there may have been used to intentionally bury them too. Her many photos show good evidence of the mountains of mudbricks near numerous sites. Most have been moved away to the perimeter in order to show and provide access to the beautiful megalithic structures.
Many of the structures appear to have been damaged, as if by a catastrophe, and then re-assembled and then buried, in order to preserve them for posterity. I commented that it seems like an awful lot of work to do to make all those mudbricks just for distant posterity. Nonetheless, it does look like she's right that the bricks were initially packed onto many of the structures. The most impressive to me was, I think at Esna, where 2 obelisks were known to have been initially buried so only their tops were visible. No one knew they were obelisks until the rubble was cleared away. That's a huge amount of bricks.
The Giza plateau appears to have been hit by major electric discharges before it was covered with blocks. She says that's why the plateau was considered sacred and the megalithic structures were built there. She discusses Peratt's finding about plasma figures in ancient rock art and agrees with his suspicion that the Sun became highly electrically active in ancient times, causing global cataclysms. Charles Chandler found that dwarf stars would be more likely to become so active than larger stars, such as the Sun. And Saturn and Jupiter may have been dwarf stars back then.
It took me all day to make that post. I think it was worth it.
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nick c
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Hi Lloyd,
The presently accepted measure of Betelgeuse's parallax yields a distance of between 408 to 548 light years away from our solar system. That is calculated using trigonometry. While that is presented with an extremely large margin of error even at the close end of the range it means that Betelgeuse is still very far from the Sun. Of course, the farther away from the Sun the less precise is the parallax measurement. But nevertheless, unless the proponents of Betelgeuse as a nearby dwarf star can demonstrate why this parallax distance is flawed, it shows that Betelgeuse must be very far from the Sun.
See the footnoted parallax measurements in the Wikipedia entry for "Betelgeuse":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betelgeus ... yce2020-11
It does not matter too much to me if Betelgeuse is a huge star far away or dim dwarf that is very close, I just don't see how parallax, as measured by professional astronomers, could be that wrong! it is a pretty much cut and dried measurement and calculation.
The reason I write "it does not matter too much to me": is because I would not be at all surprised if there were not brown or red dwarf stars in close proximity to the Sun, whose presence has yet to be detected. For example, within a 20 light year radius of the Sun, there are 131 stars, dwarfs, and sub dwarfs. Of those close neighbors only 22 are visible to the naked eye.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars
I am sure there are more dim dwarf stars or even Jupiter sized objects lurking nearby. I am just not convinced that Betelgeuse is one of them.
The presently accepted measure of Betelgeuse's parallax yields a distance of between 408 to 548 light years away from our solar system. That is calculated using trigonometry. While that is presented with an extremely large margin of error even at the close end of the range it means that Betelgeuse is still very far from the Sun. Of course, the farther away from the Sun the less precise is the parallax measurement. But nevertheless, unless the proponents of Betelgeuse as a nearby dwarf star can demonstrate why this parallax distance is flawed, it shows that Betelgeuse must be very far from the Sun.
See the footnoted parallax measurements in the Wikipedia entry for "Betelgeuse":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betelgeus ... yce2020-11
It does not matter too much to me if Betelgeuse is a huge star far away or dim dwarf that is very close, I just don't see how parallax, as measured by professional astronomers, could be that wrong! it is a pretty much cut and dried measurement and calculation.
The reason I write "it does not matter too much to me": is because I would not be at all surprised if there were not brown or red dwarf stars in close proximity to the Sun, whose presence has yet to be detected. For example, within a 20 light year radius of the Sun, there are 131 stars, dwarfs, and sub dwarfs. Of those close neighbors only 22 are visible to the naked eye.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nearest_stars
I am sure there are more dim dwarf stars or even Jupiter sized objects lurking nearby. I am just not convinced that Betelgeuse is one of them.
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
417916
Nick, if Betelgeuse were .05 ly away and traveling perpendicular to the Sun on a circular orbit, it might be straightforward to calculate its parallax and distance, but if it's traveling away from the Sun on a highly elliptical orbit, how would its parallax differ from that of a distant star?
Nick, if Betelgeuse were .05 ly away and traveling perpendicular to the Sun on a circular orbit, it might be straightforward to calculate its parallax and distance, but if it's traveling away from the Sun on a highly elliptical orbit, how would its parallax differ from that of a distant star?
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Nick, the reference paper at https://www.gsjournal.net/Science-Journ ... nload/4635 points out that starlight appears to bend around stars and the normal velocity of stars is about 50 km/sec and anything over that velocity, which is over 100 stars, are likely miscalculated. He says star color vs. magnitude seems to be a much more accurate measure of star distance.
AI SUMMARY RE PRECISION OF ANCIENT VASES VIDEO
Predynastic Egyptian Stone Vessels Mystery Solved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyBJZkgaZKA
AI SUMMARY RE PRECISION OF ANCIENT VASES VIDEO
Predynastic Egyptian Stone Vessels Mystery Solved
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyBJZkgaZKA
The video "Predynastic Egyptian Stone Vessels Mystery Solved" by Dr. Max Fomitchev-Zamilov presents a detailed investigation into the manufacture of ancient Egyptian predynastic stone vessels. The key insights include:
The research began with analyzing the extraordinary precision of these ancient vessels using electron microscopy and 3D scanning, particularly studying collections from private owners and museums such as the Petrie Museum in London.
Dr. Fomitchev-Zamilov developed a MATLAB program that analyzes 3D scans by slicing the vessels and evaluating the roundness and concentricity of each slice, which provides a precise metric of manufacturing quality.
Analysis showed two distinct groups of vessels: some with machine-level precision similar to modern lathe-made objects, and others more consistent with manual craftsmanship.
The prefatory Egyptian vessels in the Petrie Museum were all consistent with manual hand-made quality but exhibited inner surfaces with perfect circularity, incompatible with hand tools or simple lathe methods, suggesting the use of some unknown advanced handheld tool capable of rapid stone removal.
He hypothesizes that some of these vessels were not made by the predynastic Egyptians but by an unknown advanced "culture X," possibly using technology to soften stone (potentially nuclear or radiological techniques) for machining.
The study involved physically transporting a heavy metrology-grade 3D scanner to museums and required extensive validation and recalibration of the analysis code for accuracy.
The research underscores the potential existence of advanced ancient technologies for stone vessel manufacture, and ongoing studies include radiological analyses of artifacts to explore these theories further.
The findings cast doubt on some vessels in private collections as modern forgeries due to their extreme precision, contrasting with the authentic weathered museum pieces.
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5929
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
421816
See my online book: CATACLYSMIC EARTH HISTORY at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... th-history. I included detailed contents all on one webpage with direct links to each title.
HIGH PRECISION PREDYNASTIC EGYPTIAN TECH
Following is commentary on 2 recent video from an English-speaking Hungarian channel at https://www.youtube.com/@karolypoka/videos.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr8UKL4rCoM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d752WFDL24&t=889s.
The two videos discuss research on ancient Egyptian stone vases that exhibit extraordinarily high precision in their manufacturing, revealed through advanced 3D scanning and metrology. Key points relating to evidence of advanced ancient civilizations are:
The Vase Scan Project uses cutting-edge 3D metrology to analyze ancient Egyptian stone vases, mostly from pre-dynastic and early dynastic periods. Measurements show these vases have precision tolerances down to a few thousandths of an inch, far beyond what is visible to the naked eye and unexpected for handcrafting with known tools.
The ancient Egyptian precision vases have been measured with astonishing accuracy using modern metrological methods. Specifically: Some of the most precise vases, such as vase "V18," exhibit a median circularity root mean square error (RMSE) of about 0.6 thousandths of an inch (approximately 15 microns), and centering errors as low as 0.1 thousandths of an inch (about 2.5 microns). These precision levels are so fine they approach or even exceed the resolving ability of the measurement methods used (~0.2 thousandths of an inch). Surface and wall thickness variations in these vases can be less than 0.1 mm (100 microns), with some features displaying deviations less than that.
Compared to modern stone vases machined on lathes, these ancient vases are about 10 times more precise according to the quality metrics used. Some modern artisan lathed onyx vases bought cheaply online tend to have average precision levels much lower than these ancient artifacts. The precision in circularity and concentricity for high-end modern CNC machining of metals ranges from about 130 microns down to 20 microns, with exceptional aerospace-grade machining going even lower. Some ancient Egyptian vases rival or surpass the better range of modern turning tolerances (~15 microns), which is extraordinary given their age and assumed technology.
These levels of precision are inconceivable with primitive stone and stick tools, as replicas made with such ancient tools show far lower precision and quality. There is no clear archaeological evidence of the precise tools or manufacturing methods used, maintaining the mystery of how this precision was achieved. Such precision suggests the use of high-precision instruments or tools that are currently unknown or lost from history. The findings challenge traditional archaeological views about the technological capabilities of the cultures that made these artifacts, implying possible lost advanced technologies or civilizations preceding dynastic Egypt. Some hypotheses include the idea that the Egyptians may have repaired or finished existing advanced structures like the Great Pyramid, rather than being the original creators of such precision work. Ongoing research aims to digitally catalog these artifacts to better understand their manufacturing techniques and potentially revise parts of ancient technological history.
See my online book: CATACLYSMIC EARTH HISTORY at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... th-history. I included detailed contents all on one webpage with direct links to each title.
HIGH PRECISION PREDYNASTIC EGYPTIAN TECH
Following is commentary on 2 recent video from an English-speaking Hungarian channel at https://www.youtube.com/@karolypoka/videos.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr8UKL4rCoM and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d752WFDL24&t=889s.
The two videos discuss research on ancient Egyptian stone vases that exhibit extraordinarily high precision in their manufacturing, revealed through advanced 3D scanning and metrology. Key points relating to evidence of advanced ancient civilizations are:
The Vase Scan Project uses cutting-edge 3D metrology to analyze ancient Egyptian stone vases, mostly from pre-dynastic and early dynastic periods. Measurements show these vases have precision tolerances down to a few thousandths of an inch, far beyond what is visible to the naked eye and unexpected for handcrafting with known tools.
The ancient Egyptian precision vases have been measured with astonishing accuracy using modern metrological methods. Specifically: Some of the most precise vases, such as vase "V18," exhibit a median circularity root mean square error (RMSE) of about 0.6 thousandths of an inch (approximately 15 microns), and centering errors as low as 0.1 thousandths of an inch (about 2.5 microns). These precision levels are so fine they approach or even exceed the resolving ability of the measurement methods used (~0.2 thousandths of an inch). Surface and wall thickness variations in these vases can be less than 0.1 mm (100 microns), with some features displaying deviations less than that.
Compared to modern stone vases machined on lathes, these ancient vases are about 10 times more precise according to the quality metrics used. Some modern artisan lathed onyx vases bought cheaply online tend to have average precision levels much lower than these ancient artifacts. The precision in circularity and concentricity for high-end modern CNC machining of metals ranges from about 130 microns down to 20 microns, with exceptional aerospace-grade machining going even lower. Some ancient Egyptian vases rival or surpass the better range of modern turning tolerances (~15 microns), which is extraordinary given their age and assumed technology.
These levels of precision are inconceivable with primitive stone and stick tools, as replicas made with such ancient tools show far lower precision and quality. There is no clear archaeological evidence of the precise tools or manufacturing methods used, maintaining the mystery of how this precision was achieved. Such precision suggests the use of high-precision instruments or tools that are currently unknown or lost from history. The findings challenge traditional archaeological views about the technological capabilities of the cultures that made these artifacts, implying possible lost advanced technologies or civilizations preceding dynastic Egypt. Some hypotheses include the idea that the Egyptians may have repaired or finished existing advanced structures like the Great Pyramid, rather than being the original creators of such precision work. Ongoing research aims to digitally catalog these artifacts to better understand their manufacturing techniques and potentially revise parts of ancient technological history.
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nick c
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Lloyd, the more I think about it, the more it seems to me to be an impossible situation. Betelgeuse (Alpha Orionis) appears in close to the same position since ancient times. Oral traditions, back to BC times, describe Betelgeuse as the shoulder of Orion. Not only is there a problem with parallax, but there is an even bigger problem with apparent motion, that is the star's motion as seen and measured from Earth. How could an object that is very close to our solar system and may even be a distant part of this solar system, maintain its position in the constellation of Orion? It should be moving noticeably within the constellation of Orion and into neighboring constellations. Yet there it is on the shoulder of Orion, Alpha Orionis, as it was to the ancient Greeks and Chinese.Nick, if Betelgeuse were .05 ly away and traveling perpendicular to the Sun on a circular orbit, it might be straightforward to calculate its parallax and distance, but if it's traveling away from the Sun on a highly elliptical orbit, how would its parallax differ from that of a distant star?
That is consistent with the parallax measure which has its distance as several hundred light years. Its apparent motion is minimal because it is a fixed star. That is, it is so distant that its apparent motion is miniscule.
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5929
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
424230
Nick, is that your final conclusion, permanently?
PERKINS, LA PLASMA PLUME CRATER
{I'm planning to post the following on my Substack, but I expect to add some images and I may edit it somewhat. It may take a while though. When I posted Sci News on the Resources board this morning, I noticed this video and decided that it's probably pretty significant.}
Paraphrase of the video transcript of "Superheated plasma from space touched down 12,800 years ago in Louisiana: The Perkins Plume Crater" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr_cwFwS0RE
CRATER FINDING. The "Perkins Plume" crater in Louisiana (coordinates 30.3980° N, 93.3535° W) is a newly confirmed Younger Dryas impact site, where a superheated plasma plume from space touched down about 12,800 years ago. This extraordinary event is comparable to the 1908 Tunguska airburst but left a unique geological signature in Robert Fitzenreiter's family backyard. The discovery marks the first confirmed Younger Dryas plasma plume crater identified by the Comet Research Group. Robert Fitzenreiter grew up near the crater, which his family long referred to simply as "the crater," although its true origin was a mystery for many decades. His great-grandfather initially thought it was the result of a blowout or gas strike, but Robert suspected it was from an ancient cosmic impact based on unusual features he observed. In 2013, he reached out to comet experts to assist in investigating the site scientifically. Researchers, including members of the Comet Research Group and other international scientists, conducted detailed studies of the site. They found compelling evidence such as microscopic shocked quartz and melt glass consistent with cosmic impact. A peer-reviewed scientific paper recently published documented the crater’s age as from the Younger Dryas period and affirmed its cosmic origin, attracting wide academic interest.
TEMPERATURE & VELOCITY. The crater formed during an airburst event with temperatures reaching approximately 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit, which caused cosmic material to vaporize as it entered Earth's atmosphere before touching down. Unlike a traditional meteorite crater, this depression was created by the impact of superheated plasma plume material, which deposited melted substances and shocked quartz within the area. The cosmic material involved in the Perkins Plume crater event in Louisiana was estimated to have reached temperatures of over 2200°C (about 4000°F) during impact, as evidenced by the formation of melted quartz, zircon, and kaolinite glass known as meltglass. The extreme heat vaporized the impacting material and parts of the target sediments, creating shocked quartz and carbon-rich spherules enriched in iridium, platinum, and osmium — elements indicative of extraterrestrial origin. (Regarding velocity, although exact speed before impact at this shallow airburst crater isn't directly stated, models and comparisons with similar events like Tunguska suggest the impacting body would have entered the atmosphere at typical cosmic velocities of tens of kilometers per second (roughly 40,000 to 80,000 mph). The velocity rapidly decreased as the object vaporized partly in the upper atmosphere, causing a superheated plasma plume "touchdown" near the surface rather than a classic crater formed by a solid meteorite striking intact.)
CRATER ENVIRONMENT. Covering roughly five acres, the crater features a raised rim about one meter high. Over thousands of years, the crater basin has transformed into a swampy wetland that is accessible only when dry, rendering exploration difficult at times. Erosion and sediment accumulation have gradually altered the crater’s shape, filling and softening its contours.
For many years, Robert personally excavated and studied the crater, uncovering strange concretions and glass-like melted fragments that indicate exposure to extreme heat and impact forces. These concretions are unusual sand nodules with black sand interiors, believed to result from impact-related chemical processes. His fieldwork helped lay the groundwork for formal scientific analysis. The impact event altered local hydrology, with a nearby creek changing course to go around the crater. The landscape still shows signs of ancient geological forces, including overlapped craters and shifted sediments caused by the energetic airburst. For practical access, raised wooden walkways have been constructed across the swampy area to avoid disturbing the fragile soil and vegetation.
MIMA MOUNDS. Nearby geological formations known as “pimple mounds,” common both in Louisiana and some other U.S. states, may be connected to the crater or represent similar impact-related geological activity. These features are small, rounded dirt elevations whose origin has puzzled geologists and may be associated with ancient cosmic disturbance events. (Actually, pimple mounds are known more widely as mima mounds and they appear to be formed by gophers over centuries. In the U.S. they're west of the MS River, in the lower Midwest, in the Northwest and scattered in a few other states. Here's a map: http://img.geocaching.com/cache/b02791f ... 6536b7.jpg. Mima mounds also exist in Canada and Mexico and seem to be made by pocket gophers. The impact proxies found in some mounds near the plume crater likely were formed/built after the impact.)
ARTIFICIAL MOUND/S. The video and related research mention the LSU Campus Mounds, specifically Mound B, which is one of the oldest known man-made structures in North America. Construction on it began about 11,000 years ago, just after the Younger Dryas event ended around 11,700 years ago. Radiocarbon dating supports that these mounds were built during the climate recovery following the Younger Dryas, linking them temporally to that period of abrupt climate change and possible cosmic impacts. The mounds contain layers of burned ash and microscopic fragments of burned large mammal bones, suggesting ceremonial or cremation use early on. Sediment used for construction may have been sourced locally, possibly near natural depressions related to the impact crater or the airburst depression. Some researchers suggest that the artificial mounds near Perkins, Louisiana—such as the LSU Campus Mounds—were built shortly after the Younger Dryas impact event, possibly as a cultural response or commemoration. While there is no direct proof the builders knew of the impact itself, the close timing and location imply the cosmic event may have influenced mound construction and ceremonial use.
YOUNGER DRYAS IMPACT. The Perkins Plume crater differs greatly from well-known classic craters like Arizona’s Barringer Crater, which consists of a large iron meteorite and a typical bowl-shaped depression. Instead, this crater originated from an airburst of vaporized plasma that produced heat-formed materials but left no large surviving fragments penetrating the ground deeply. This finding supports broader Younger Dryas impact theories that hypothesize multiple cosmic airburst or impact events contributed to sudden climate changes and megafauna extinctions around 12,800 years ago. The Perkins Plume crater provides physical evidence consistent with the idea of several plasma plume or airburst events occurring simultaneously or in rapid succession during that time. (Note that if such plasma plume impacts occurred on the Ice Sheets, they would have left no craters, but just some iridium and maybe meltglass etc., which would have mostly washed away.)
DATING. {I consider it possible that the Younger Dryas occurred 10,000 or more years ago, as is widely believed, but that would mean that the Great Flood occurred sometime before that, because the Flood deposited most of Earth's sedimentary rock strata. That still seems unlikely though, because no mounds were built in any other American location until supposedly 5,400 years ago.} In the Americas, it is estimated that over 1 million artificial mounds once existed, with around 100,000 still surviving today. These mounds vary greatly in size, shape, and function, built over thousands of years by different indigenous cultures. {But again only the LA mounds near LSU are dated older than 5,400 years ago.}
Nick, is that your final conclusion, permanently?
PERKINS, LA PLASMA PLUME CRATER
{I'm planning to post the following on my Substack, but I expect to add some images and I may edit it somewhat. It may take a while though. When I posted Sci News on the Resources board this morning, I noticed this video and decided that it's probably pretty significant.}
Paraphrase of the video transcript of "Superheated plasma from space touched down 12,800 years ago in Louisiana: The Perkins Plume Crater" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wr_cwFwS0RE
CRATER FINDING. The "Perkins Plume" crater in Louisiana (coordinates 30.3980° N, 93.3535° W) is a newly confirmed Younger Dryas impact site, where a superheated plasma plume from space touched down about 12,800 years ago. This extraordinary event is comparable to the 1908 Tunguska airburst but left a unique geological signature in Robert Fitzenreiter's family backyard. The discovery marks the first confirmed Younger Dryas plasma plume crater identified by the Comet Research Group. Robert Fitzenreiter grew up near the crater, which his family long referred to simply as "the crater," although its true origin was a mystery for many decades. His great-grandfather initially thought it was the result of a blowout or gas strike, but Robert suspected it was from an ancient cosmic impact based on unusual features he observed. In 2013, he reached out to comet experts to assist in investigating the site scientifically. Researchers, including members of the Comet Research Group and other international scientists, conducted detailed studies of the site. They found compelling evidence such as microscopic shocked quartz and melt glass consistent with cosmic impact. A peer-reviewed scientific paper recently published documented the crater’s age as from the Younger Dryas period and affirmed its cosmic origin, attracting wide academic interest.
TEMPERATURE & VELOCITY. The crater formed during an airburst event with temperatures reaching approximately 7,000 degrees Fahrenheit, which caused cosmic material to vaporize as it entered Earth's atmosphere before touching down. Unlike a traditional meteorite crater, this depression was created by the impact of superheated plasma plume material, which deposited melted substances and shocked quartz within the area. The cosmic material involved in the Perkins Plume crater event in Louisiana was estimated to have reached temperatures of over 2200°C (about 4000°F) during impact, as evidenced by the formation of melted quartz, zircon, and kaolinite glass known as meltglass. The extreme heat vaporized the impacting material and parts of the target sediments, creating shocked quartz and carbon-rich spherules enriched in iridium, platinum, and osmium — elements indicative of extraterrestrial origin. (Regarding velocity, although exact speed before impact at this shallow airburst crater isn't directly stated, models and comparisons with similar events like Tunguska suggest the impacting body would have entered the atmosphere at typical cosmic velocities of tens of kilometers per second (roughly 40,000 to 80,000 mph). The velocity rapidly decreased as the object vaporized partly in the upper atmosphere, causing a superheated plasma plume "touchdown" near the surface rather than a classic crater formed by a solid meteorite striking intact.)
CRATER ENVIRONMENT. Covering roughly five acres, the crater features a raised rim about one meter high. Over thousands of years, the crater basin has transformed into a swampy wetland that is accessible only when dry, rendering exploration difficult at times. Erosion and sediment accumulation have gradually altered the crater’s shape, filling and softening its contours.
For many years, Robert personally excavated and studied the crater, uncovering strange concretions and glass-like melted fragments that indicate exposure to extreme heat and impact forces. These concretions are unusual sand nodules with black sand interiors, believed to result from impact-related chemical processes. His fieldwork helped lay the groundwork for formal scientific analysis. The impact event altered local hydrology, with a nearby creek changing course to go around the crater. The landscape still shows signs of ancient geological forces, including overlapped craters and shifted sediments caused by the energetic airburst. For practical access, raised wooden walkways have been constructed across the swampy area to avoid disturbing the fragile soil and vegetation.
MIMA MOUNDS. Nearby geological formations known as “pimple mounds,” common both in Louisiana and some other U.S. states, may be connected to the crater or represent similar impact-related geological activity. These features are small, rounded dirt elevations whose origin has puzzled geologists and may be associated with ancient cosmic disturbance events. (Actually, pimple mounds are known more widely as mima mounds and they appear to be formed by gophers over centuries. In the U.S. they're west of the MS River, in the lower Midwest, in the Northwest and scattered in a few other states. Here's a map: http://img.geocaching.com/cache/b02791f ... 6536b7.jpg. Mima mounds also exist in Canada and Mexico and seem to be made by pocket gophers. The impact proxies found in some mounds near the plume crater likely were formed/built after the impact.)
ARTIFICIAL MOUND/S. The video and related research mention the LSU Campus Mounds, specifically Mound B, which is one of the oldest known man-made structures in North America. Construction on it began about 11,000 years ago, just after the Younger Dryas event ended around 11,700 years ago. Radiocarbon dating supports that these mounds were built during the climate recovery following the Younger Dryas, linking them temporally to that period of abrupt climate change and possible cosmic impacts. The mounds contain layers of burned ash and microscopic fragments of burned large mammal bones, suggesting ceremonial or cremation use early on. Sediment used for construction may have been sourced locally, possibly near natural depressions related to the impact crater or the airburst depression. Some researchers suggest that the artificial mounds near Perkins, Louisiana—such as the LSU Campus Mounds—were built shortly after the Younger Dryas impact event, possibly as a cultural response or commemoration. While there is no direct proof the builders knew of the impact itself, the close timing and location imply the cosmic event may have influenced mound construction and ceremonial use.
YOUNGER DRYAS IMPACT. The Perkins Plume crater differs greatly from well-known classic craters like Arizona’s Barringer Crater, which consists of a large iron meteorite and a typical bowl-shaped depression. Instead, this crater originated from an airburst of vaporized plasma that produced heat-formed materials but left no large surviving fragments penetrating the ground deeply. This finding supports broader Younger Dryas impact theories that hypothesize multiple cosmic airburst or impact events contributed to sudden climate changes and megafauna extinctions around 12,800 years ago. The Perkins Plume crater provides physical evidence consistent with the idea of several plasma plume or airburst events occurring simultaneously or in rapid succession during that time. (Note that if such plasma plume impacts occurred on the Ice Sheets, they would have left no craters, but just some iridium and maybe meltglass etc., which would have mostly washed away.)
DATING. {I consider it possible that the Younger Dryas occurred 10,000 or more years ago, as is widely believed, but that would mean that the Great Flood occurred sometime before that, because the Flood deposited most of Earth's sedimentary rock strata. That still seems unlikely though, because no mounds were built in any other American location until supposedly 5,400 years ago.} In the Americas, it is estimated that over 1 million artificial mounds once existed, with around 100,000 still surviving today. These mounds vary greatly in size, shape, and function, built over thousands of years by different indigenous cultures. {But again only the LA mounds near LSU are dated older than 5,400 years ago.}
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nick c
- Posts: 3075
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Yes, I don't think that there is any case to be made with regard to the proposition that Betelgeuse is actually a small nearby object - unless there can be some explanation for the apparent and parallax motion, or lack thereof.Lloyd wrote:Nick, is that your final conclusion, permanently?
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Lloyd
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- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
426117
COMET 3I/ATLAS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxNjy_jvkmI
This comet has features of a Transneptunian Object.
That seems to suggest that it's from the Kuiper Belt, but it's only 50 km in diameter or less. Based on the detailed info from the attached video about interstellar object 3I/ATLAS, the features that show this new "comet" is more like a trans-Neptunian object (TNO) rather than a typical asteroid or comet include:
Polarization Characteristics: The polarization data of the coma and dust cloud around 3I/ATLAS shows complex and structured patterns not typical of known comets or asteroids. Its polarization versus phase angle curve is closer to what is extrapolated for TNOs rather than usual comets, indicating physical and compositional similarities to TNOs beyond Neptune.
Composition: The coma of 3I/ATLAS is uniquely CO2 enriched, with a dominance of CO2 gas, water vapor, and water ice. Typical comets have more carbon-based molecules like cyanogen, which are lacking here. This CO2-dominance and absence of usual cometary gases mark it more like an outer Solar System object.
Coloration: It exhibits a dark reddish color similar to TNOs, likely caused by exposure to interstellar radiation, which reddens surfaces. The red coloration matches known TNOs and some Centaurs but differs from many comets and asteroids.
Unique Plasma Structures: Polarization data suggest a plasma-rich, complex coma and dust cloud with double-layer structures like those found in plasmas. This plasma structure is very unusual for comets but may be more common for distant icy objects like TNOs.
Trajectory and Velocity: Its hyperbolic orbit with extremely high velocity (up to 68 km/s near perihelion) and trajectory through the inner Solar System are not typical for most comets or asteroids. This suggests an origin from interstellar or outer Solar System populations like TNOs.
Outgassing Behavior: It shows cometary activity (gas and dust emission) at very large distances (~3.5 AU) where typical comets do not outgas much. This may imply volatiles dominated by CO2 or CO sublimation rather than water ice, like many outer Solar System bodies.
Morphology and Tail Behavior: The object has an unusual sunward-facing tail (dust bloom) that is rare for comets and a huge, growing coma resembling the scale and features seen in large TNOs rather than small comets or asteroids.
OBLONG TNO HAUMEA
I had previously thought that any object over 200 or so miles in diameter had too much gravitational force to be anything but a sphere. But the following says if something rotates fast enough it can be oblong. The following TNO is twice as long as its shortest axis, its axis of rotation.
Haumea is an unusual dwarf planet located in the Kuiper Belt beyond Neptune, characterized by a striking elongated, rugby-ball-like shape. Its dimensions are approximately 2,322 × 1,704 × 1,138 km, making it smaller than Pluto but one of the largest trans-Neptunian objects discovered.
Shape and Spin
Haumea is highly elongated due to its extremely rapid rotation, completing one spin in about 3.9 to 4 hours, among the fastest of any large body in the solar system. This rapid spin causes centrifugal forces strong enough to distort its shape from spherical into a triaxial ellipsoid, with the rotation axis aligned along its shortest diameter. Haumea’s fast spin is likely a consequence of a colossal giant impact billions of years ago, which spun it up and ejected fragments that formed its moons and associated family of Kuiper Belt objects.
Composition and Density
Unlike most Kuiper Belt objects, Haumea has a differentiated interior with a dense rocky core (~2.68 g/cm³) covered by a relatively thin icy mantle (water ice), accounting for about 17% of its mass. Overall density is estimated around 1.9 to 2.0 g/cm³, making it one of the densest dwarf planets.
Its surface is very bright and reflective (high albedo of 0.6–0.8), dominated by crystalline water ice, unusual given the cold temperature (~–240°C) and long exposure to cosmic radiation that would normally amorphize crystalline ice. Haumea also has a notable dark red spot that may be an impact crater or region with higher concentrations of minerals or carbon-rich compounds.
Moons and Rings
Haumea has two known moons:
Hiʻiaka: Larger outer moon (~310–350 km diameter, icy surface, nearly circular orbit)
Nāmaka: Smaller inner moon (~170 km diameter, moderately eccentric and inclined orbit)
Both moons orbit close to Haumea’s equatorial plane, and their orbits are influenced by Haumea’s elongated shape and rapid rotation.
Haumea also has a ring aligned almost exactly with its equator, uniquely among Kuiper Belt objects.
Orbit and Dynamics
Haumea takes about 285 Earth years to orbit the Sun at an average distance of ~43 astronomical units (AU). Haumea's orbital eccentricity is approximately 0.195. Its elongation and fast rotation make it an example of a Jacobi ellipsoid, a shape held in equilibrium by the balance between gravitational and rotational forces. The moons' orbits show tidal interactions; Hiʻiaka's orbit is nearly circular, while Nāmaka's is more eccentric (~0.25–0.3) but expected to circularize over millions to hundreds of millions of years.
Origins and Evolution
The giant impact hypothesis explains Haumea’s unique spin, shape, high density, and the presence of its moons and collisional family in the Kuiper Belt. After the impact, changes in Haumea's internal structure and rotation evolved to its current state. Its bright icy surface and crystalline ice indicate a relatively recent resurfacing or ongoing processes preserving the ice.
COMET 3I/ATLAS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxNjy_jvkmI
This comet has features of a Transneptunian Object.
That seems to suggest that it's from the Kuiper Belt, but it's only 50 km in diameter or less. Based on the detailed info from the attached video about interstellar object 3I/ATLAS, the features that show this new "comet" is more like a trans-Neptunian object (TNO) rather than a typical asteroid or comet include:
Polarization Characteristics: The polarization data of the coma and dust cloud around 3I/ATLAS shows complex and structured patterns not typical of known comets or asteroids. Its polarization versus phase angle curve is closer to what is extrapolated for TNOs rather than usual comets, indicating physical and compositional similarities to TNOs beyond Neptune.
Composition: The coma of 3I/ATLAS is uniquely CO2 enriched, with a dominance of CO2 gas, water vapor, and water ice. Typical comets have more carbon-based molecules like cyanogen, which are lacking here. This CO2-dominance and absence of usual cometary gases mark it more like an outer Solar System object.
Coloration: It exhibits a dark reddish color similar to TNOs, likely caused by exposure to interstellar radiation, which reddens surfaces. The red coloration matches known TNOs and some Centaurs but differs from many comets and asteroids.
Unique Plasma Structures: Polarization data suggest a plasma-rich, complex coma and dust cloud with double-layer structures like those found in plasmas. This plasma structure is very unusual for comets but may be more common for distant icy objects like TNOs.
Trajectory and Velocity: Its hyperbolic orbit with extremely high velocity (up to 68 km/s near perihelion) and trajectory through the inner Solar System are not typical for most comets or asteroids. This suggests an origin from interstellar or outer Solar System populations like TNOs.
Outgassing Behavior: It shows cometary activity (gas and dust emission) at very large distances (~3.5 AU) where typical comets do not outgas much. This may imply volatiles dominated by CO2 or CO sublimation rather than water ice, like many outer Solar System bodies.
Morphology and Tail Behavior: The object has an unusual sunward-facing tail (dust bloom) that is rare for comets and a huge, growing coma resembling the scale and features seen in large TNOs rather than small comets or asteroids.
OBLONG TNO HAUMEA
I had previously thought that any object over 200 or so miles in diameter had too much gravitational force to be anything but a sphere. But the following says if something rotates fast enough it can be oblong. The following TNO is twice as long as its shortest axis, its axis of rotation.
Haumea is an unusual dwarf planet located in the Kuiper Belt beyond Neptune, characterized by a striking elongated, rugby-ball-like shape. Its dimensions are approximately 2,322 × 1,704 × 1,138 km, making it smaller than Pluto but one of the largest trans-Neptunian objects discovered.
Shape and Spin
Haumea is highly elongated due to its extremely rapid rotation, completing one spin in about 3.9 to 4 hours, among the fastest of any large body in the solar system. This rapid spin causes centrifugal forces strong enough to distort its shape from spherical into a triaxial ellipsoid, with the rotation axis aligned along its shortest diameter. Haumea’s fast spin is likely a consequence of a colossal giant impact billions of years ago, which spun it up and ejected fragments that formed its moons and associated family of Kuiper Belt objects.
Composition and Density
Unlike most Kuiper Belt objects, Haumea has a differentiated interior with a dense rocky core (~2.68 g/cm³) covered by a relatively thin icy mantle (water ice), accounting for about 17% of its mass. Overall density is estimated around 1.9 to 2.0 g/cm³, making it one of the densest dwarf planets.
Its surface is very bright and reflective (high albedo of 0.6–0.8), dominated by crystalline water ice, unusual given the cold temperature (~–240°C) and long exposure to cosmic radiation that would normally amorphize crystalline ice. Haumea also has a notable dark red spot that may be an impact crater or region with higher concentrations of minerals or carbon-rich compounds.
Moons and Rings
Haumea has two known moons:
Hiʻiaka: Larger outer moon (~310–350 km diameter, icy surface, nearly circular orbit)
Nāmaka: Smaller inner moon (~170 km diameter, moderately eccentric and inclined orbit)
Both moons orbit close to Haumea’s equatorial plane, and their orbits are influenced by Haumea’s elongated shape and rapid rotation.
Haumea also has a ring aligned almost exactly with its equator, uniquely among Kuiper Belt objects.
Orbit and Dynamics
Haumea takes about 285 Earth years to orbit the Sun at an average distance of ~43 astronomical units (AU). Haumea's orbital eccentricity is approximately 0.195. Its elongation and fast rotation make it an example of a Jacobi ellipsoid, a shape held in equilibrium by the balance between gravitational and rotational forces. The moons' orbits show tidal interactions; Hiʻiaka's orbit is nearly circular, while Nāmaka's is more eccentric (~0.25–0.3) but expected to circularize over millions to hundreds of millions of years.
Origins and Evolution
The giant impact hypothesis explains Haumea’s unique spin, shape, high density, and the presence of its moons and collisional family in the Kuiper Belt. After the impact, changes in Haumea's internal structure and rotation evolved to its current state. Its bright icy surface and crystalline ice indicate a relatively recent resurfacing or ongoing processes preserving the ice.
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5929
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
SCHOCH'S SOLAR OUTBURST THEORY
The video is about a year old at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlolCbroQ. His wife's more recent video about sites in Egypt apparently having been similarly intentionally buried, like the Tepe's in Turkey, was discussed here recently.
Solar Outbursts and the Younger Dryas: A Sudden Climate Catastrophe
Dr. Robert Schoch argues that the abrupt onset and rapid end of the Younger Dryas—a roughly 1,200-year cold spell starting around 10,900 BCE—were caused by a massive solar outburst rather than a comet or asteroid impact. Based on Greenland ice core data, Schoch highlights that not only did the Younger Dryas begin suddenly, but it ended with extreme abruptness, possibly in just a few days. This rapid warming challenges gradual climate-change models. Schoch cites astrophysical research suggesting the sun can release bursts of charged plasma capable of weakening Earth's magnetic shield and driving high-energy electrical discharges on the surface, causing fires, vitrification of rocks, and rapid environmental change.
Göbekli Tepe Burial and Cultural Collapse
Schoch presents strong stratigraphic and radiocarbon evidence that Göbekli Tepe was purposefully buried around 8,000 BCE, shortly after the Ice Age's end. The rubble used for burial stabilized the giant pillars, and calcite formations like stalagmites on the fill confirm long-term concealment. This burial correlates with intense climatic disruptions linked to solar plasma events. Schoch interprets the intentional burial as a ritual response to trauma, symbolizing closure or protection amid societal upheaval. Similar ritual burials of monumental sites in nearby regions suggest an extensive regional cultural collapse tied to rapid environmental shifts. Correlating with solar trauma, Göbekli Tepe's burial marks an abrupt cultural reset. This complex and sophisticated Neolithic site’s sudden closure and burial reflect how human societies were forced to reorganize or collapse amid extreme environmental stress tied to solar and cosmic events, disrupting early civilization development.
Reevaluating the Comet Impact Hypothesis
The Carolina Bays, elliptical depressions primarily in the southeastern U.S., have been dated using optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) and radiocarbon methods to ages ranging from 80,000 to over 100,000 years, far older than the Younger Dryas (~12,800 years ago). These luminescence dates show the bays formed episodically over glacial and interglacial cycles. Sediments and pollen data confirm repeated environmental transformations influencing bay formation long before Younger Dryas impacts were proposed. This contradicts the hypothesis that a terminal Pleistocene comet impact caused their origin. Schoch uses this data to support his thesis that solar plasma phenomena, not impacts, primarily shaped these and other geological anomalies in this period.
Schoch critiques the Younger Dryas impact theory, which relies on proxies such as nanodiamonds and meltglass found in sediments. He asserts that intense plasma and electromagnetic events from solar outbursts can also produce these features, undermining the assertion that impacts alone caused the trauma. While acknowledging that cosmic impacts may have played a role, Schoch believes solar phenomena provide a more coherent explanation for global climate and geological signatures around 12,800 years ago. He encourages a more critical examination of evidence attributed to impacts, emphasizing interdisciplinary analysis.
{I believe the dating of the Carolina Bays simply shows huge inaccuracy of OSL and even C14 dating methods.}
Mythology as Evidence of Solar Catastrophe
Ancient myths worldwide, filled with motifs of floods, fiery skies, and cosmic destruction, are presented by Schoch as cultural memories encoding humanity’s experiences of solar plasma events and associated environmental trauma. These narratives symbolize collective psychological and spiritual responses to the catastrophic transformations wrought by cosmic forces at the Ice Age’s close.
Geological and Physical Evidence of Plasma Events
Schoch points to vitrified rocks, magnetic anomalies, and surface features better explained by high-energy solar plasma discharges than by mechanical impact. These include glassification occurring at temperatures exceeding 2,000°C and complex geomagnetic disruptions, which impacts alone struggle to explain. Plasma activity produces conditions for massive lightning strikes and electromagnetic pulses that fundamentally alter earth materials and terrain.
{Red dwarf stars, like possibly ancient Saturn, are more inclined to produce huge outbursts than are sun-like stars.}
The video is about a year old at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfxlolCbroQ. His wife's more recent video about sites in Egypt apparently having been similarly intentionally buried, like the Tepe's in Turkey, was discussed here recently.
Solar Outbursts and the Younger Dryas: A Sudden Climate Catastrophe
Dr. Robert Schoch argues that the abrupt onset and rapid end of the Younger Dryas—a roughly 1,200-year cold spell starting around 10,900 BCE—were caused by a massive solar outburst rather than a comet or asteroid impact. Based on Greenland ice core data, Schoch highlights that not only did the Younger Dryas begin suddenly, but it ended with extreme abruptness, possibly in just a few days. This rapid warming challenges gradual climate-change models. Schoch cites astrophysical research suggesting the sun can release bursts of charged plasma capable of weakening Earth's magnetic shield and driving high-energy electrical discharges on the surface, causing fires, vitrification of rocks, and rapid environmental change.
Göbekli Tepe Burial and Cultural Collapse
Schoch presents strong stratigraphic and radiocarbon evidence that Göbekli Tepe was purposefully buried around 8,000 BCE, shortly after the Ice Age's end. The rubble used for burial stabilized the giant pillars, and calcite formations like stalagmites on the fill confirm long-term concealment. This burial correlates with intense climatic disruptions linked to solar plasma events. Schoch interprets the intentional burial as a ritual response to trauma, symbolizing closure or protection amid societal upheaval. Similar ritual burials of monumental sites in nearby regions suggest an extensive regional cultural collapse tied to rapid environmental shifts. Correlating with solar trauma, Göbekli Tepe's burial marks an abrupt cultural reset. This complex and sophisticated Neolithic site’s sudden closure and burial reflect how human societies were forced to reorganize or collapse amid extreme environmental stress tied to solar and cosmic events, disrupting early civilization development.
Reevaluating the Comet Impact Hypothesis
The Carolina Bays, elliptical depressions primarily in the southeastern U.S., have been dated using optically stimulated luminescence (OSL) and radiocarbon methods to ages ranging from 80,000 to over 100,000 years, far older than the Younger Dryas (~12,800 years ago). These luminescence dates show the bays formed episodically over glacial and interglacial cycles. Sediments and pollen data confirm repeated environmental transformations influencing bay formation long before Younger Dryas impacts were proposed. This contradicts the hypothesis that a terminal Pleistocene comet impact caused their origin. Schoch uses this data to support his thesis that solar plasma phenomena, not impacts, primarily shaped these and other geological anomalies in this period.
Schoch critiques the Younger Dryas impact theory, which relies on proxies such as nanodiamonds and meltglass found in sediments. He asserts that intense plasma and electromagnetic events from solar outbursts can also produce these features, undermining the assertion that impacts alone caused the trauma. While acknowledging that cosmic impacts may have played a role, Schoch believes solar phenomena provide a more coherent explanation for global climate and geological signatures around 12,800 years ago. He encourages a more critical examination of evidence attributed to impacts, emphasizing interdisciplinary analysis.
{I believe the dating of the Carolina Bays simply shows huge inaccuracy of OSL and even C14 dating methods.}
Mythology as Evidence of Solar Catastrophe
Ancient myths worldwide, filled with motifs of floods, fiery skies, and cosmic destruction, are presented by Schoch as cultural memories encoding humanity’s experiences of solar plasma events and associated environmental trauma. These narratives symbolize collective psychological and spiritual responses to the catastrophic transformations wrought by cosmic forces at the Ice Age’s close.
Geological and Physical Evidence of Plasma Events
Schoch points to vitrified rocks, magnetic anomalies, and surface features better explained by high-energy solar plasma discharges than by mechanical impact. These include glassification occurring at temperatures exceeding 2,000°C and complex geomagnetic disruptions, which impacts alone struggle to explain. Plasma activity produces conditions for massive lightning strikes and electromagnetic pulses that fundamentally alter earth materials and terrain.
{Red dwarf stars, like possibly ancient Saturn, are more inclined to produce huge outbursts than are sun-like stars.}
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