Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[nick c]

I don't have Pillars of the Past, Nick.

If you ever decide to start investigating Ginenthal's book you should start with Volume 1 since it pretty much demolishes the notion that Mesopotamian civilization dates back to the 3rd M BC. It is available on Nook or Kindle for $8.99.

Ginenthal places emphasis on science, forensics, and technology and lastly on literary references which are the least reliable. He cites the case of an inscription from one of the Ramses telling of the Pharaoh's great victory in a battle over the Hittites. Now given that inscription. historians would conclude that the Egyptians won a great battle; that is. except for the discovery that the Hittites had a report of the same battle and they reported that the Egyptian army was routed and forced to hastily retreat back to Egypt. So much for literary references, they have to be interpreted and taken with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I will reread the 35 page criticism of Rohl in Volume III and post a summary of the salient points here. If I remember correctly there are some technical arguments dealing with the observations of the New Moon positions as cited in the El Lahun papyri that show Rohl's correlations to be wrong. Also, I remember a discussion of Delta T and its implications for using eclipse reports as chronological markers. They are invalid before 700 BC.

[Lloyd]

313557

CHRONOLOGY

I guess I might have access to part of Pillars of the Past. Does it have 17 chapters? Which is best?

Chapter 1 The Foundations of Ancient History
Chapter 2 The Sphinx
Chapter 3 Astronomical Sothic Dating
Chapter 4 Scientific ? Radiocarbon Dating
Chapter 5 Pottery Dating, Faience, and Tin
Chapter 6 Egyptian Stratigraphy
Chapter 7 Iron, Diorite and Other Hard Rock
Chapter 8 Mesopotamia and Ghost Empires
Chapter 9 Mesopotamian Stratigraphy
Chapter 10 Iron, Diorite, and the Sumerians
Chapter 11 Tin Bronzes and the Sumerians
Chapter 12 Pottery Dating and the Sumerians
Chapter 13 Scythian Princes in the Royal Tombs of Ur
Chapter 14 Agronomy and Climatology
Chapter 15 Dark Ages Based on Dark Scholarship
Chapter 16 Hittites ? Lydians
Chapter 17 Corroboration, Convergence, Analysis

[nick c]

CHRONOLOGY

I guess I might have access to part of Pillars of the Past. Does it have 17 chapters? Which is best?

Chapter 1 The Foundations of Ancient History
Chapter 2 The Sphinx
Chapter 3 Astronomical Sothic Dating
Chapter 4 Scientific ? Radiocarbon Dating
Chapter 5 Pottery Dating, Faience, and Tin
Chapter 6 Egyptian Stratigraphy
Chapter 7 Iron, Diorite and Other Hard Rock
Chapter 8 Mesopotamia and Ghost Empires
Chapter 9 Mesopotamian Stratigraphy
Chapter 10 Iron, Diorite, and the Sumerians
Chapter 11 Tin Bronzes and the Sumerians
Chapter 12 Pottery Dating and the Sumerians
Chapter 13 Scythian Princes in the Royal Tombs of Ur
Chapter 14 Agronomy and Climatology
Chapter 15 Dark Ages Based on Dark Scholarship
Chapter 16 Hittites ? Lydians
Chapter 17 Corroboration, Convergence, Analysis

Yes, those are the chapter headings for Pillars of the Past vol. I

[Lloyd]

314121

Nick, I'm reading up on the short chronology quite a bit. Looks like Greenberg also supported it.

EV COCHRANE INTERVIEW

Ev didn't have much to say about my 4th and 5th sets of questions. He gave brief answers to the 4th, but preferred not to discuss the 5th set, which were mainly about ancient floods etc. I'll just show what the questions were anyway, since the references might be useful some day. I'll post his answers to the 6th set of questions in the next post.

4.1.LK: CHINESE DRAGON. In Newborn Star, Dwardu said this on pages 158-159.
"Sutherland was entirely mistaken when, in attempting to corroborate one of Velikovsky's main theses, he misidentified the dragon and its pearl as the planet Venus in its previous near-cometary aspect.11 In all honesty, I have to confess that, in my pioneering days, and in support of Sutherland's thesis, I was just as guilty of so misidentifying the Chinese dragon and its fiery pearl.12 It is now quite apparent that, in comparison with the myths of other ancient nations, the encircling Chinese dragon is to be understood as the outflow of debris from proto-Saturn's axial pole, which debris continued to spiral out so far that, in time, witnesses of the event could actually see it circumventing proto-Saturn's flaming globe. And it is the very watery illusion of proto-Saturn's circumstellar disk across which this debris spiraled that eventually associated the Dragon in Asian minds with water, rivers, lakes, and oceans."
Since you said Dwardu often erred, in attributing to Saturn, events that actually involved Venus and/or Mars, do you disagree with Dwardu on the above?
__1.EC: {DRAGON = VENUS}. I certainly disagree with Dwardu’s proposal with respect to the encircling dragon. First, where is the evidence for this hypothesis? Second, the encircling dragon, as Talbott and I have shown in numerous publications, is best understood as the Venus-comet (think of the Egyptian Uranus serpent, encircling Horus). Third, there is some reason to identify the pearl encircled by the dragon with the planet Mars, although here it must be said that the evidence is far from voluminous and/or compelling on this issue.

4.2.LK: POLAR COLUMN RETRACTION. On page 279 of Flare Star he said this.
"There was a general belief among the ancient Egyptians that, at one time, Ra cut off his own phallus.2 Since, as we have already seen, the phallus of Ra was actually the plasma column or axis mundi we have been analyzing, what this self-castration seems to indicate is a detachment of that axis. This castration motif is one that recurs often enough in myth, although, to be sure, some of it refers to a much later, but similar, event."
Dwardu concluded that a retraction of the polar column caused the Saturn flareup of Creation. But you say there was no retraction before Creation and Creation was a flareup of Venus instead of Saturn. Is that right? And was there a retraction or severing of the polar column later, after Creation, which was interpreted as Saturn's or Mars' self-castration, which led to the tradition of circumcision?
__2.EC: {NO PC RETRACTION}. On the second question, I would argue that Dwardu’s argument is far from well sourced or compelling. Absent a ton more documentation in the Egyptian texts themselves, the entire hypothesis is sheer speculation and hardly worthy of being taken on board by those interested in cosmogonic myth.

5.LK: {FLOODS}. I've been trying to date ancient cataclysms in myths and what effects they had on Earth. For now, I guess I'll focus on Floods and later on Doomsday. You said floods in myths were celestial, but I'd like your comments on the following 8 excerpts anyway, if you like.
5.1. I posted the last installment of my interview of Dwardu on the Thunderbolts forum on Sep 27, 2012 1:16 pm at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/ ... =90#p71027
LK: {Books}. How many books do you still plan to write?
DC: I'm now in the midst of putting Volume Five together, with a proposed four more volumes to follow.
... LK: {South-facing Petroglyphs}. Peratt found that the petroglyphs that showed the plasma column generally faced south. Does that mean that Saturn and the plasma column had moved all the way toward the south pole by then from Earth's perspective?
DC: There ARE indications that that was the case — and this came to light before Peratt entered the scene. Both Talbott and I knew about it right from the start [about 40 years ago?]. However, having accumulated much more material since that time, I might have to rethink this particular series of events. So all I am willing to say at the moment is, let's wait and see.
... LK: {Timing of the Great Flood}. Did the Great Flood likely occur shortly after the plasma column was removed from the north pole and had moved beyond the Arctic circle?
DC: In view of what I said above, it's too early to tell — at least for me.
... On Thoth in 2000 at http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv01.txt {DC said:} that an enormous flood had once swept down from the north to scour the land surface of North America has been suggested by J. Harlan Bretz. So, similarly, with C. Warren Hunt who speaks of evidence pointing to a flood from the north, excavating the land as it went before it emptied into Lake Bonneville. ... Similar signs of a vast scouring flood from the north have also been discovered in Siberia.

5.2. The rest of the excerpts are from Thoth. The first one is yours. After that are Dave Talbott's
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.02.txt
{EC} Indeed, Mars was associated with spectacular disasters of one form or another, not the least of which was a great flood of water descending from the sky.

5.3. http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 997.05.txt
According to the Cheyenne of North America the original race roamed naked, innocent and free, enjoying the natural abundance of an eternal spring. What followed, however, was an age of flood, war, and famine.

5.4. http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 997.22.txt
The memory of the comet is well preserved in the song of German schoolchildren in the time of Martin Luther-- [These] things a comet brings ... Storm, plague, famine, death of kings, War, earthquake, flood, and upheaval.
... An idyllic world, a paradisal condition, a Golden Age ruled by a former "great king" (the CREATOR-king, the Universal Monarch), came crashing down in a world-ending disaster: wars of the gods, earthquake, famine, wind and flood, the arrival of universal night. Of this world-ending catastrophe the Great Comet Venus--the departing heart-soul of the creator-king--was remembered as both symbol and agent.

5.5. http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 997.27.txt
When the creator-king Quetzalcoatl died, his heart was removed from him. The primeval "sacrifice," in the various traditions, occurred at a time of cosmic upheaval, of great wind and drought, of darkness, earthquake and flood, with the god's own heart--the smoking star--presiding over the regeneration of the world.

5.6. http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 998.08.txt
From ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia to the Americas, from India to China, Scandinavia, Africa, and the Pacific Islands, one finds surprisingly similar accounts: celestial temples and cities, a lost paradise or "Garden of Eden," a cosmic mountain, a flaming serpent or dragon in the sky--and surprisingly similar stories of global calamity ranging from wars of the gods, to a great flood or a devastating rain of fire and gravel.

5.7. http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv07.txt
The new theme is evolution by catastrophe, and here the Earth is not the safe place we once imagined. Cometary disasters, global floods or tidal waves, tropical climates giving way to ice ages, sudden extermination of species--once the province of science fiction, the new speculations have given rise to the field of "catastrophics"--the study of EARTH-CHANGING catastrophe.

5.8. http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thothv06.txt
Every ancient culture insisted that a "world-destroying" catastrophe occurred in former times. For the Greeks this was the KATAKLYSMOS, when the world ended in flood and a cosmic winter, or EKPYROSIS, the destruction of the world by fire.

[Lloyd]

Ev is revolutionizing my thinking about the Saturn Theory a little or a lot. He thinks Floods and Conflagrations were celestial, not terrestrial. But he's probably just judging mostly by ancient myths. Now he says Mars was the great King, not Saturn. And there was a primeval hill that was not the polar column before Creation.

EV COCHRANE INTERVIEW - 6 (Part 4 & 5 are in the previous post.)

6.1. THE TURQUOISE SUN: LOTUS OF CREATION
... {TUMULT} {A} passage from the Coffin text/s describes Horus's inaugural appearance during the tumultuous natural events attending the primeval separation of heaven and earth, a pivotal juncture in cosmogonic myths around the globe.
__LK: I think that's from your latest video. Have you determined how severe the tumultuous natural events were? Were there frequent falls of meteorites? Are those mainly what frightened ancient peoples? A Thunderbolts Picture of the Day showed good evidence that the Chicago fire and fires in Wisconsin and Michigan at the same time were likely caused by acetylene and/or other gases that hit Earth in those locations when Comet Biela broke up (in 1871, I think). Isn't likely or at least very possible that similar cometary emissions hit Earth during the Creation period? And what about large impacts? Why was heaven considered to have separated from Earth? Did the Saturn Configuration appear to get farther away? Did the planets appear to become smaller?
__EC: {THUNDERBOLTS} Great questions. Unfortunately, each of them would require a small book to answer with any detail and/or credibility. I suspect that this was the greatest catastrophe the world ever experienced within human memory. Not only were the planets very close to Earth, but the lightning bolts between the respective planets were prodigious in scale and power. Remember what Tony Peratt said about the power and radiation effects of these thunderbolts (many thousands of times the power of the hydrogen bomb). The thunderbolts were powerful enough to reshape the northern hemisphere of Mars, after all, effectively hoovering off many miles of surface structure. Understand, I would not want to be dogmatic about any of this: Much remains to be established, not the least of which is how the planets could have participated in a polar configuration in the first place. But we can be very confident that they did, well within the memory of homo sapiens (likely between 6000-4000 BCE). Rather than growing smaller, the planets actually appeared to grow larger because of the plasma effects affecting them. Venus, for example, was likely originally seen as a simple orb or round globe while it was located in the center of the so-called Ra-sign. When it flared up and assumed the form of a 8-rayed star or 8-petaled flower, it literally spanned heaven (the Sumerian planet-goddess Inanna is actually said to have spanned heaven in the ancient texts). Mars, as Dave and I have documented at great length, alternately appeared as a dwarf or infant at the breast of Venus and as a towering planet while moving closer to the Earth (Mars is known as the "swelling" planet around the globe). Hope this helps clarify matters.

6.2. MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.02.txt
... Indeed, Mars was associated with spectacular disasters of one form or another, not the least of which was a great flood of water descending from the sky.
... Following Velikovsky's lead - but also modifying and elaborating upon his conclusions and chronology - I have confirmed that the ancients described Mars as being much closer in recent times, close enough, in fact, to dominate the skies. Various Babylonian omens, for example, associate Mars with prodigious eclipses of the Sun.
__LK: {WHEN?} Did those eclipses occur before the Creation event, or afterward, during the Golden Age? Did some of the water come down to Earth? Otherwise, why would they have called it a flood?
__EC: {BEFORE CREATION} I believe that the Mars-eclipse traditions belong to the pre-Creation period that was marked by darkness (this is a universal theme — that the pre-Creation world was marked by darkness). If I understand things correctly, this is where the Venus-comet phase belongs as well (Venus is everywhere credited with darkening the skies — witness the Egyptian Eye of Horus traditions). The raging Eye of Horus events belong to the pre-Creation period and are precisely mirrored in the Sumerian traditions associated with the Inanna-dragon). See The Many Faces of Venus or Fossil Gods. My forthcoming book on Egyptian myth will document this thesis in great detail. With regards to the “flow”: much of this imagery will trace to the period of the four-fold cross in the sky, discussed in detail by Dave in numerous works and in my Turquoise Sun. The four “rays” were everywhere identified as four rivers, canals, four winds, etc., all of which flowed across the sky as plasma forms.

6.3. THE PRIMEVAL HILL
... The fact that the Primeval Hill was known as the “mountain of both heaven and earth” serves to contextualize the natural events in question during that distant period when heaven and earth were still united; i.e., prior to their eventual separation as per the Creation accounts of many ancient cultures.8
... The Egyptian traditions surrounding the Primeval Hill state unequivocally that it traced back to that distant period before heaven and earth were first separated from each other, thereby complementing the testimony from Mesopotamia.
... A hill known as the Holy Mound, then, was the birthplace of the Anuna, and the other gods, at the time before sky and earth were separated. They lived up on it, and mankind lived down below.
... According to a popular Egyptian cosmogonic tradition, it was Shu who first separated heaven and earth and thus this particular passage testifies to the belief that Re originally ruled alone on the Primeval Hill prior to Shu’s formative act of separation.
... the royal tomb was given the shape of a pyramid which is the Heliopolitan stylization of the primeval hill.”31 What was true of the temple and pyramid was also true of the throne.
... there can be no denying the fact that the Egyptian scribes recognized an archaic historical connection between the Horus-star and the Primeval Hill.
... evidence is provided by the abundant Egyptian testimony to the effect that the spectacularly brilliant star that “appeared” at Creation presented a greenish form and effected a “greening” of the cosmic landscape.
__LK: Was the Primeval Hill the polar column? Is that what made heaven appear to be connected to Earth? Didn't the polar column remain connected after Creation during the Golden Age? If so, why was heaven thought to have separated from Earth?
__EC: {NOT THE POLAR COLUMN} The Primeval Hill was not the polar column. Rather it preceded it in time. I try and summarize this material in Turquoise Sun but here, too, this are very archaic traditions and difficult to sort out. There is a reason why Egyptologists and scholars of myth have utterly failed to explain these universal myths. The separation of heaven and earth, in large part, was brought about by the appearance of the four streamers which, as the four sky pillars, pillared apart heaven and earth. This was the ordering of the cosmos at the center of Creation traditions around the globe.

6.4. THE CASE OF THE MISSING SUN
... Images of a flower-like sun are encoded in the sacred traditions, language, and religious iconography of numerous cultures around the globe, thereby attesting to what amounts to a universal cultural memory.
... such traditions constitute the proverbial smoking gun — in this case, a tell-tale sign and permanent record of a lost solar system, one in which a floral-formed sun dominated the celestial landscape together with its Divine Assembly, a veritable circle of stars.
__LK: Was this Sun actually Saturn, Venus, or Mars? Dave's Alien Sky videos said Venus appeared to be a rayed star with rays/streamers flowing toward Saturn in the background and Mars looked reddish-brown in silhouette in front of Venus. The videos showed Venus's streamers as white and 8 in number, then changing to 5, looking like a flower, then like a dove's tail, or a 5-fingered hand with an eye/Mars in it. Do you disagree about the colors, or about which planet was bright and star-like?
__EC: {PLANETS' COLORS} Dave’s discussion of this imagery is pure genius and is unrivaled in the history of science or the study of symbolism. Dave and I worked out this Venus history between 1981 and 2000 or so. Wal Thornhill played a key role in explaining what exactly was going on between the respective planets (material stretched out between Mars and Venus and the latter and Saturn, including the symmetry of the respective streamers). Generally speaking, Mars was ruddy red and Venus green but during the various catastrophic phases other colors were presented. Kali/Venus was black while destroying the world, for example, while Mars took on a turquoise green color when the Venusian streamers enveloped it.

6.5. THE DRILLING OF FIRE AND THE ORIGIN OF THE SUN
... It will be noted that the Aztec fire-god is represented as residing in the navel of the earth
... The navel in question, moreover, is specifically identified as a “circle of turquoise,”
... In addition to his role as Father of the Gods, the Aztec fire-god was also celebrated as the “archetype of all rulers.”
... The first words of the Rig Veda, the oldest collection of religious texts in India, attest to the reverence formerly accorded fire: “I worship the sacred fire”
... Thus it was said: it was claimed that if fire could not be drawn, then [the sun] would be destroyed forever; all would be ended; there would evermore be night. Nevermore would the sun come forth. Night would prevail forever, and the demons of darkness would descend, to eat men…”32
... And Nanauatzin, daring all at once, determined… All at once he quickly threw and ... cast himself into the fire
... the gods sat waiting [to see] where Nanauatzin would come to rise
... And when the sun came to rise, when he burst forth, he appeared to be red; he kept swaying side to side. It was impossible to look into his face; he blinded one with his light. Intensely did he shine. He issued rays of light from himself; his rays reached in all directions; his brilliant rays penetrated everywhere…
... The report that Nanahuatl’s auto-sacrifice by fire occurred during a period when all “was in darkness” is one of several clues that suggests we are likely dealing with an archaic account of Creation
... analogous fears attached to solar eclipses
... the mention of disaster-bringing falling stars is enough to confirm that Sahagún’s indigenous informants were not describing a run-of-the-mill solar eclipse
... He is thus the ‘disease’ Quetzalcoatl. He must have been a very old god ... he is called by them ‘dwarf,’ or ‘green,’ that is, young.
... That Quetzalcoatl himself is to be identified with the Morning Star is well-known.
__LK: So which planet was which color? Do you disagree with Dave who said Saturn was the Universal Monarch? You said Mars was the Morning Star. And I think you're saying here that Mars was the fire-god and was called the blinding Sun. I think Velikovsky had thought Quetzalcoatl was the feathered serpent, Comet Venus, but you're saying it was Mars. Aren't you?
__EC: {MARS WAS KING} I would argue that Quetzalcoatl was the planet Mars. I regard him as the double of the Egyptian Horus. Both were identified with the Morning Star and conceptualized as the first king. Dave eventually agreed that Quetzalcoatl was Mars but he never really managed to sort out the relationship of this figure to Saturn (as the Universal Sovereign, that is). Saturn’s role in ancient myth and religion is a very difficult question and much remains to be sorted out. But Mars was the archetypal king crowned by Venus — and the consort of the Queen of Heaven — not Saturn.

6.6. {CARDONA} Maybe Dwardu didn't show you all of his notes on a topic. Was he secretive? His book, Newborn Star, has c. 400 pages and each page seems to average 4 footnotes each, so it seems to have about 1,600 footnotes. It mentions your name about 80 times.

[Lloyd]

314389

EV COCHRANE INTERVIEW - 7

Here are some excerpts from Ev's paper, The Ladder to Heaven, along with the new questions.
7.1) {HEAVEN ON EARTH.} ... The ladder-to-heaven, as we have seen, was said to have existed during that primeval period when heaven was closer to the earth than at present. This apparently universal belief in a former Age marked by the close proximity (or union) of heaven and earth is intimately related to a correlate belief — namely, that the gods once lived on earth and only departed with its separation from heaven. The gods themselves, in turn, are explicitly identified with the most prominent celestial bodies. We have already encountered this idea amongst the Chamacoco of South America, who held that “before the sky moved upward, when the sky was very near, Sun and Moon were still people.”5
__LK: When they said the gods once lived on earth, what do you think they meant by "earth"? Were the planets on the horizon, instead of up in the sky? If not, then why would the ancients have thought the gods/planets were on earth and then moved to the sky?
__EC: As I try to explain in Turquoise Sun, Creation is always centered on a Primeval Mound, hill, or mountain. As I understand this celestial structure, it consists of Venus (=primeval earth) with Mars in front of it, hence the archaic tradition that Horus/Mars settled upon a mound or the Thundergod's original appearance in the center of the earth. As for how to visualize this structure, I relate it to what I have called the half-star (see the image below, from Mesoamerica). It is this particular celestial structure that the ancients were attempting to model with their pyramids and ziggurats. It will be noted that this half-star is exactly the 8-rayed Venus bisected, as it were, a decisive key to interpreting the imagery (I have discussed this imagery at great length in my Mons Veneris, located on my website, hitherto unpublished). As to how this apparition is to be explained from an astronomical standpoint, much remains unclear. Recently Rick Smith has been trying to model this image by means of the polar configuration and he has succeeded in producing this very image. As I understand it, there are various different ways to produce this image, depending on the tilt of the Earth's axis and the relative positioning of Mars, Venus, and Saturn. I would recommend you reach out to Rick if you want more detail.

7.2) {WORLD TREE & LADDER.} ... According to the Chamacoco, it will be remembered, the celestial bodies only moved to heaven with the destruction of the World Tree: “This story is about the time when the sky was near… There was a tree called eebe… It had many leaves which they could climb on like a ladder, and they would climb all the way up to the sky… There was no sun and no stars; all these were living among the people. Sun and Moon lived like human beings… When the insect cut down the tree and it fell, Sun and Moon left and moved up to the sky.”57 The spectacular events remembered as the “departure of the gods” were so mesmerizing and traumatic that ancient cultures everywhere sought to recreate or re-experience the Eden-like conditions that prevailed during the Golden Age. Indeed, countless rites were conducted with the express purpose of commemorating and reenacting the glorious time of the beginnings.
__LK: Was the World Tree the same as the ladder to heaven? Did the chain of arrows appear to turn into a ladder, or a rope ladder? One of your figures shows a copy of rock art of a ladder reaching to a shining Sun with the ladder being made of horizontal lines, no vertical lines. Was the ladder the polar column? Was it different from the primeval hill or World Mountain? What was meant by the "departure of the gods"? Did the 3 planets move away from the Earth toward their present orbits right after the Creation event?
__EC: To reiterate: The events in question trace to the prehistoric period, well before the birth of human civilization. The only "records" we have of such events are ancient rock art and human testimony--that is, of course, until we can securely date the relevant high-energy discharge events on Earth and Mars (well into the future, I trust). Thus it would be foolhardy to be dogmatic about any of our findings, but of some things we can be certain, such as the fact that the World Pillar was indeed a tangible structure in the sky, formerly visible but no longer visible today. That said, I will attempt to answer your specific questions. The full-fledged World Tree, as I attempt to argue in Turquoise Sun, was the so-called "solar cross" in the sky and, as such, is not strictly identifiable with the ladder to heaven, which descended below the polar configuration. The chain of arrows, rope of heaven, and ladder to heaven belong together and seemingly represent related but different phases in the evolution of the polar column. In Fossil Gods, as well as in several of my articles on the ladder to heaven, I show a petroglyph from South America where all three forms are preserved side by side, as if the ancient skywatchers knew the evolving forms were one and the same (i.e., the rope evolved into a helix-like structure that presented the appearance of a runged-ladder). See here Tony Peratt's discussion of the evolving toruses associated with high energy discharge events. Obviously, we need Tony or someone else with his knowledge of plasma behavior to tell us how or why these different forms evolved over time. But it is clear that the column changed shape over time and it is possible to reconstruct this history in great detail given enough data and time. Personally, I distinguish between the Primeval Mound and the polar column because the former describes Heaven and Earth in conjunction, as explained in a previous email, and belongs to any earlier period in Creation. The formation of the polar column is a later development although still intimately connected to the unfolding of Creation (the prototypical "sun" climbs a ladder or lotus stem to ascend to heaven, for example). The three planets you mention definitely did not depart right after Creation but stayed aligned in the polar configuration for some time, eventually morphing into a myriad of other clearly reconstructible forms (the initial appearance of the crescent; the White Crown phase, etc.). Hope this helps clarify matters.

[Lloyd]

315469

EV'S TIMELINE & THE DEAD SEA CATACLYSM

My timeline:
L1. FLOOD(3,200BC) - L2. ICE AGE(till 2,600BC) - L3. YD(2,600BC) - L4. EARLY CIVILIZATION(till 2,100BC) - L5. DEAD SEA CATACLYSM(2,200BC)

Ev Cochrane's timeline:
E1. ICE AGE - E2. GOLDEN AGE - E3. CHAOS/DARKNESS/DOOMSDAY - E4. MARS & VENUS RECESSION - E5. END OF SATURN CONFIGURATION(by 2,400BC) - E6. CIVILIZATION

DATING. So I think Ev only has one date, c. 2,400 BC (E5), in his timeline. E4 & E3 lasted some years or decades each. E2 (the Golden Age) lasted some decades or centuries.
E1: Ev assumes that the Saturn Configuratin was always in the inner solar system, so when the system broke up Earth didn't have to travel through space from Saturn's orbit to Earth's orbit without a heat source, such as Saturn. Instead, he assumes that Saturn moved from the inner to the outer solar system, while Earth stayed put. He prefers not to speculate much on the celestial mechanics of the Saturn Configuration.
He said to see Cardona's writings regarding the Ice Age. Cardona seemed to accept that the Ice Ages ended during the YD (Younger Dryas), which is conventionally put at between 11 & 12 millennia ago, but which I date to after the Great Flood, from c. 3,200 to 2,600BC.
E2: He says the Golden Age occurred before the Creation event. I think Creation was also called Doomsday.
E3: He says the Flood & Conflagration occurred only in the sky during E3 (a period of celestial chaos).
E4: He says the Saturn Configuration remained for a period of time during E4 (post-chaos).
E5: He says E5 occurred before the first pyramid texts, conventionally dated to 2,400BC or so.
My guess is that E3 occurred at L3, i.e. at the Younger Dryas event c. 2,600BC.

DEAD SEA CATACLYSM DATING. Several Creation.com articles conclude that Abraham was born in 2,166BC, so the Dead Sea Cataclysm would then have occurred c. 2,100BC. (See e.g. Two date range options for Noah's Flood https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j31 ... 20-127.pdf ). That event apparently deposited a lot of sulfur in an area close to the Dead Sea, so I asked Perplexity.AI which solar system bodies have sulfur.

SULFUR IN SOLAR SYSTEM. Several bodies in our solar system contain sulfur in various forms. Here's an overview of some key locations where sulfur has been detected:
Venus: The atmosphere of Venus contains sulfuric acid clouds and sulfur dioxide.
Earth: Sulfur is present in Earth's crust, atmosphere, and various life forms.
Mars: Sulfur compounds have been detected in Martian rocks and soil.
Jupiter: The atmosphere contains sulfur compounds, and its moon Io is particularly sulfur-rich.
Io (Jupiter's moon): Io's surface is covered with sulfur and sulfur dioxide from its active volcanoes.
Europa (Jupiter's moon): Sulfur compounds are present on its icy surface, likely due to irradiation from Jupiter's magnetosphere.
Ganymede and Callisto (Jupiter's moons): These moons also receive sulfur ion irradiation, though at lower levels than Europa.
Saturn's system: While Saturn's magnetosphere has a low density of sulfur ions, some of its moons like Enceladus show evidence of organic sulfur compounds.
Asteroids: Some asteroids, like Ryugu, contain sulfur compounds. Researchers have found diverse sulfur-bearing organic molecules in samples from Ryugu's surface1.
Comets: Sulfur compounds have been detected in various comets.
The presence of sulfur in these bodies is significant for understanding their composition, potential for supporting life, and the chemical processes occurring in different parts of the solar system. Sulfur plays a role in space weathering, the formation of organic compounds, and potentially in prebiotic chemistry.

VENUS SULFUR. We can infer the following about the distribution of sulfur in Venus' atmosphere:
Lower atmosphere:
Most sulfur species on Venus reside in the atmosphere, with concentrations about 100,000 times higher than in Earth's atmosphere due to the lack of an ocean.
The lower atmosphere contains significant amounts of sulfur dioxide (SO2) and other sulfur compounds.
Upper atmosphere:
Sulfur dioxide abundance drops significantly at higher altitudes, reaching parts per billion (ppb) levels in the upper atmosphere.
Observations showed a decrease in SO2 abundance from 380±70 ppb in 1979 down to 50±20 ppb in 1988 at cloud top levels.
Middle atmosphere (cloud layers):
Dense sulfuric acid clouds form at altitudes of 50-70 km when sulfur dioxide from volcanoes combines with water vapor.
These clouds are a key component of Venus' atmosphere and contain high concentrations of sulfuric acid droplets.
High altitude (90-110 km):
A mysterious sulfur dioxide layer was detected at this altitude, which was unexpected as SO2 should be rapidly destroyed by intense solar radiation above 70 km.
This layer is now explained by the evaporation of some sulfuric acid droplets at high altitudes, releasing gaseous sulfuric acid that is then broken apart by sunlight, releasing sulfur dioxide gas.
In summary, while exact quantitative comparisons are not provided, the information suggests that sulfur concentrations are generally higher in the lower atmosphere and cloud layers of Venus compared to the upper atmosphere. The lower atmosphere contains more stable sulfur compounds, while the upper atmosphere has lower concentrations of sulfur dioxide due to photochemical processes. The middle atmosphere, particularly the cloud layers, contains high concentrations of sulfuric acid, a key sulfur-containing compound in Venus' atmosphere.

JUPITER & SATURN SULFUR. It appears that Jupiter likely contains more sulfur than Saturn overall. Here are the key points supporting this conclusion:
Jupiter's composition:
Jupiter's atmosphere contains trace amounts of sulfur compounds, including hydrogen sulfide.
The nitrogen, sulfur, and noble gas abundances in Jupiter's atmosphere exceed solar values by a factor of about three.
Saturn's composition:
Saturn is described as "less intensely and more uniformly coloured" compared to Jupiter, partly due to having less complex hydrocarbons in its atmosphere.
Saturn's magnetosphere is low in density of sulfur ions.
Comparative factors:
Jupiter is more massive than Saturn, which suggests it likely retained more elements overall during formation.
Jupiter has a larger metallic hydrogen shell compared to Saturn, which could indicate more retention of heavier elements like sulfur.
Saturn has less leftover energy than Jupiter, which correlates with its overall composition.
Formation process:
The core accretion model suggests that larger cores (like Jupiter's) were able to accumulate more material, including trace elements like sulfur, during planetary formation.
While exact quantitative comparisons are not provided in the search results, the overall evidence suggests that Jupiter, being larger and more massive, likely contains more sulfur than Saturn. However, it's important to note that precise measurements of sulfur content throughout both planets' entire structures are not available, and this conclusion is based on atmospheric observations and theoretical models of planetary formation and composition.

NO JUPITER AGE? I wanted an idea whether Jupiter is needed to supply the sulfur. Apparently, it's not needed. So the Dead Sea sulfur could have come from Venus, or a comet, or an asteroid. And Venus could have gotten it from Saturn. I think Ev says Jupiter doesn't seem to have been ever seen up close, although he conceded that Dave Talbott's finding of ancient images of a banded sphere may have been images of Jupiter up close. So Ev doesn't have the Jupiter Configuration in his timeline. He apparently never found any gods to have portrayed Jupiter, but ancient gods were only identified as Mars, Venus, or Saturn. Even Saturn is seldom referenced in Ev's writings. So I want to ask him which gods were definitely Saturn. Any god identified with a crescent, such as Kronos, were likely Saturn, I think.

DEAD SEA SULFUR? Since Ev has the Saturn Configuration gone by 2,400BC, the Dead Sea sulfur could only have come from Venus if Venus was on an elliptical orbit after the Saturn Configuration broke up. I should ask Ev if he's found any evidence that Venus returned in later times. Mars has sulfur too, but I don't see an easy way for concentrated sulfur to have escaped from Mars and hit the Dead Sea area. So, if Venus did not return, that leaves a comet or asteroid as the most likely source of the Dead Sea sulfur.

[Lloyd]

316849

NON-SATURNIST CRO-MAGNON ART

In FLARE STAR, p 195, Cardona said: While the later Neolithic art, out of the Ice age, proliferated with unmistakable astronomical objects, there is nothing that is even faintly recognizable as anything cosmological in all of bona fide Cro-Magnon art that has so far come to light. There are no depictions of crescent moons or radiating suns - not even the Saturnian sun with which this work is concerned. And why should there have been? Of Sun and Moon there were none. The Saturnian sun, on the other hand, was paid absolutely no attention for the simple reason it had always just hung there, neither rising nor setting, immobile in the north of heaven, doing absolutely nothing. Being born, and living their entire life, beneath its immutability, the CroMagnons and Neanderthals would have taken it for granted just as they did the ground beneath their feet.

ICE AGE
Michael Oard showed that the Ice Age occurred over about a 700 year period after the Great Flood. The Septuagint Bible indicates that the Flood occurred about 3,200 BC. Nearly all traces of life and artifacts from before the Flood were surely wiped out by the Flood, considering that there were no mountains or high elevations before the Flood, so it would have been easy for large tsunamis to overwhelm everything on land. The rising Flood waters then buried all of the land under a mile or more of sediments, but the receding Flood waters than removed 30% or so of the sediments onto the continental shelves (after Pangaea broke up).

MAINSTREAM DATING OF ANCIENT HUMANS

Quoting Perplexity.ai.
Cro-Magnon (45,000 to 10,000 BP) remains have been found at several locations across Europe, with the most notable discoveries including:
_Les Eyzies, France: The original Cro-Magnon rock shelter, located in the Dordogne region of southwestern France, is where the first Cro-Magnon remains were discovered in 186812. This site yielded partial skeletons of four adults and one infant, along with tools and ornaments1.
_Abri Pataud, France: Located near Les Eyzies, this site has provided numerous Cro-Magnon artifacts and some skeletal remains dating back to around 35,000 years ago.
_Peștera cu Oase, Romania: This cave in southwestern Romania yielded some of the oldest modern human remains in Europe, dated to approximately 40,000 years ago.
_Mladeč Caves, Czech Republic: These caves contained early modern human remains, including skulls that show similarities to the Cro-Magnon 2 specimen from France1.
_Grotta del Cavallo, Italy: This site in southern Italy provided some of the earliest evidence of Cro-Magnon presence in Europe, with remains dated to around 45,000 years ago.
_Other Notable Locations: Various sites in France: Including La Ferrassie, Lascaux, and Chauvet Cave, which while not necessarily yielding Cro-Magnon remains, have provided significant evidence of their culture and art.
_Iberian Peninsula: Several sites in Spain and Portugal have yielded Cro-Magnon artifacts and occasional skeletal remains.
_Eastern Europe: Sites in countries like Hungary and Bulgaria have also provided evidence of early modern human presence, though not always specifically labeled as Cro-Magnon.
_Note that the term "Cro-Magnon" is now generally used to refer to early modern humans in Europe, rather than a specific subspecies2. As such, many early modern human remains found across Europe from the Upper Paleolithic period (roughly 40,000 to 10,000 years ago) could be considered part of the Cro-Magnon population.

Neanderthal (400,000 to 40,000 BP) remains and artifacts have been discovered at numerous sites across Europe and parts of Asia. Some of the key locations include:
_Europe: France: Vaucluse; Bau de l'Aubesier; Biache-Saint-Vaast; Bruniquel Cave; Châtelperron; La Chapelle-aux-Saints; La Ferrassie; Le Moustier; Saint-Césaire
_Germany: Neanderthal, 1 in the Neander Valley (the original discovery site); Ehringsdorf; Salzgitter-Lebenstedt
_Spain: Atapuerca Mountains; Sidrón Cave (Asturias); El Salt (Valencian Community); Zafarraya (Granada); Gibraltar; Gorham's Cave (one of the last known Neanderthal occupation sites)
_United Kingdom: Creswell Crags (England); La Cotte de St Brelade (Jersey, Channel Islands)
_Asia: Israel: Several sites (not specified in the search results)
_Uzbekistan: Sites present (not specified in the search results)
_Note that Neanderthal remains and artifacts have been found at many more locations across Europe and parts of Asia than those listed here. The search results provided a limited selection of sites, focusing primarily on some of the more well-known or significant locations. Neanderthal discoveries span a wide geographic range, from Western Europe to the Middle East and parts of Central Asia.

The locations of some other human species:
_Homo erectus (#4 2,000,000 to 110,000 BP) remains have been discovered in multiple locations: East Africa; Indonesia; China; Georgia
_Homo heidelbergensis (#6 600,000 to 200,000 BP) remains have been found in various parts of Europe and Africa.
_Denisovans (#8 ) are primarily known from remains found in Denisova Cave in Siberia, Russia.
_Homo floresiensis (#9 100,000 to 50,000 BP) remains were discovered on the island of Flores in Indonesia.
_Homo sapiens (#10 300,000 BP to present) remains have been found across the globe, with some of the oldest discovered in Africa.

REDATING

Perplexity.ai tells me that the above human remains are found in Pleistocene strata.
It says: Pleistocene strata thickness varies considerably across different locations, but there are some areas where these deposits are notably thick:
_Glacial Deposits: Pleistocene deposits are particularly thick in areas that were heavily glaciated during the ice ages:
_Filled Valleys: The thickest Pleistocene deposits are often found where major pre-existing valleys were filled with glacial sediments. In some cases, these filled valleys can contain Pleistocene deposits up to 600 feet (approximately 183 meters) thick.
_Moraines: Areas where glacier fronts remained stationary for extended periods, building up thick ridges of glacial debris called moraines, also feature substantial Pleistocene deposits.
_Regional Variations: Some specific regions with thick Pleistocene deposits include:
__Illinois: In parts of Illinois, Pleistocene deposits can reach thicknesses of approximately 600 feet (183 meters), especially where glacial moraines cross filled valleys.
__Coastal Areas: Pleistocene marine deposits are often found in shallow marine basins, typically within a few tens of kilometers of modern shorelines. In geologically active areas like the Southern California coast, these deposits can be found at elevations of several hundred meters.
_Loess Deposits
__Wind-blown silt deposits called loess, which are characteristic of the Pleistocene, can also be quite thick in certain areas:
__Valley Margins: Loess deposits are thickest along the margins of major valleys, where they can reach up to 100 feet (30.5 meters) in thickness. These deposits thin rapidly away from the valleys, sometimes decreasing to less than 20 feet (6 meters) thick within 10 miles (16 kilometers).
_It's important to note that Pleistocene deposit thickness can vary sharply over relatively small areas due to the complex nature of glacial, fluvial, and aeolian deposition processes during this epoch.

That means the Pleistocene sediments were deposited during and at the end of the Ice Age, after the Great Flood, and ended c. 2,500 BC. So all of the above human or hominin remains need to be redated to between 3,200 BC and 2,500 BC.

SCHOLARS SAY MOSES COPIED GENESIS
Some Saturnists think Moses was a mythological figure, but again it's possible that there was an Earthly Moses and a celestial myth attributed to him. If other scholars are right that Moses was also a real person and that he copied the family histories written down by the ancients.
Here I wrote about Toledoths https://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum/phpB ... 20#p129582
There I quoted from an SIS article that said toledoths came at the end of Genesis family histories.
But in this new article, Genesis — its author and its structure https://creation.com/genesis-its-author ... -structure
it says toledoths came at the beginning of each family history.
What's mainly of interest is that several of the ancients were apparently responsible for recording their family histories, which Moses later had access to and included in the Book of Genesis. Following are the apparent authors of each toledoth.
Heavens and Earth (Genesis 2:4) {author unknown}
Adam (Genesis 5:1)
Noah (Genesis 6:9)
Sons of Noah (Genesis 10:1)
Shem (Genesis 11:10)
Terah (Genesis 11:27)
Ishmael (Genesis 25:12)
Isaac (Genesis 25:19)
Esau (Genesis 36:1)
Esau (repeated in Genesis 36:9)
Jacob (Genesis 37:2)
Saturnist mythology suggests that Adam and Eve were actually the planets Mars and Venus. There may nonetheless have been actual humans who had similar roles as founders of the human race, or a branch of it. What interests me is that it seems reasonable that the ancients could have passed down their family histories and Moses could then have copied them into Genesis.

YOUNGER DRYAS & DURATION OF THE SATURN CONFIGURATION
So, if the Cro-Magnons did not draw images of the Saturn Configuration during their time in the Ice Age, before the Younger Dryas catastrophe, this suggests that the Creation event was the Younger Dryas catastrophe. Ev said Venus and Mars were visible before the Creation event, but there was a period of darkness, apparently for months to years, then Creation. The Golden Age occurred at lower latitudes at the same time that the Ice Age occurred at higher latitudes. Ev said the first images of the Saturn Configuration appeared in pre-dynastic Egypt. If the first dynasty started at c. 2,400 BC, the pre-dynastic period would have been c. 2,500 to 2,400 BC. Pyramids were built all around the world, and Ev said they were imitations of the Primeval Hill. In a recent interview question for Ev at viewtopic.php?p=10906#p10867 I quoted from his article, The Primeval Hill: "A hill known as the Holy Mound, then, was the birthplace of the Anuna, and the other gods, at the time before sky and earth were separated. They lived up on it, and mankind lived down below." Ev said that was before the Creation event and the polar column came after the Creation event. He also said the Saturn Configuration was gone by about the time of the first dynasty. So that would be about the same period from 2,500 to 2,400 BC. So it seems that the Saturn Configuration was likely only prominent from about 2,800 to 2,400 BC. The Cro-Magnons were mostly in Europe, so maybe the weather there didn't allow the Saturn Configuration to be visible there for much of that time.

[Lloyd]

317036

CAVES FORMED DURING THE GREAT FLOOD

Were Caves Carved Fast from the Bottom Up?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm7JldMKo2M
{This is a new video by Kurt Wise. Speliogenesis means formation of caves. Hypergene means by water flowing downward. Hypogene means by water flowing upward. About the first 2 thirds of the video are pictures of water channels on the roofs of caves in Tennessee. Following is a transcript of the remainder of the video.}

1. Since conventional geologists believe most of the western U.S. caves are formed by hypogene speliogenesis, it's very possible (I'm going to make that jump) ... to suggest that all limestone caves (I'm gonna say worldwide) were formed by hypogene speliogenesis, not by hypergene speliogenesis, as J. Harlan Bretz suggested. ... One thing about hypogene speliogenesis {is that} the speed at which it operates is really dependent upon the temperature and the acidity of the water. Hypergene spieligensis takes a long time, almost certainly hundreds to thousands of years. But hypogene spleogenesis can potentially occur in a matter of hours, days or weeks - actually just about any amount of time that you postulate, depending upon the concentration of the acids. So, as a result, hypogene speliogenesis can occur within biblical timescales. It could occur within the flood, after the flood, it could fit into the biblical time.

2. ... Secondly, for hypergene speliogenesis to work, you need water from above and you need a water table that's below the land surface. Well that doesn't work during the flood. During the flood the water table is above the land surface, so hypergene speliogenesis doesn't {cause} any cave formation during the flood. The flood doesn't speed up hypergene sphelogenesis, it stops it. In contrast, hypogene speliogenesis needs water from below that is acidic. And then the nice thing about the flood model is, if in fact most of the limestone is formed during the flood, and most of the limestone is not formed at the beginning of the flood, but during the flood, then all of the water-laden sediments that are laid down before the limestone are the way for eroding the limestone above it. Plus, we've got all sorts of chemistry going on that can add the acidity that we need. So the flood actually provides the water necessary for hypogene speliogenesis to work and to work very quickly. What's interesting here too is that, as we argue that hypogene speliogenesis is the only, or the primary, method by which caves are formed. The conventional model has a very difficult time explaining where those waters came from. The flood model produces an explanation for it. It becomes a challenge to the other model.

3. Also, another thing that's very curious as far as the fossil record is concerned, one thing that is very curious about the fossil record of caves is that we have no fossils in cave sediments that are older than the Pleistocene. This is amazing. So we're now talking about a cave with some mud in it. And then you got bones of things that crawled into the cave and they're fossilized inside of the cave. It's what most people would think of as fossils in a cave. They're not in the limestone that the cave is carved out of. They're in the mud that fills the cave. And again, this is the first time I realized this. We have no fossils in cave sediments that are older than the Pleistocene. So in a pile of rocks tens of thousands of feet thick across the surface of the earth, cave fossils are only found in the very top {of the fossil record}. They are not found in any of the other caves. We have caves that are older than that, but they're filled with sediment that does not have fossils in it. They don't have animal or land fossils. Thet's not what you would expect if the earth is very old and it's always had caves and there's always been some land animals that wandered into a cave and got buried in there, and you should find land animal fossils in caves all the way back to the oldest rocks of the planet. We have caves, we have holes in rock full of younger sediment, but we have no land fossils in any of those caves until the Pleistocene. And that makes a whole lot of sense here, because if the rocks that the caves are cut into were formed in the flood, and the rising waters that eroded them and created the caves occurred in the flood or thereafter, that's the very first time in Earth history that you'd have been able to crawl into a cave.

4. A limestone cave would have been after the floodwaters have left the continents, brought the water table down, dried out the caves and allowed the animals to get into the caves, which thus we can explain why there are no cave sediment older than the Pleistocene, even. We've got fossil bats in the fossil record. They're beautiful, beautiful fossil bats. The oldest fossil bats are not found in cave sediments. They are found in lake sediments. We have cave animals also in the fossil record. But when we find them, the oldest ones are not found in cave sediments, they're found outside of cave sediments. It's not until the Pleistocene that we finally get bats preserved in cave sediments. So hypogene speliogenesis explains why land animal fossils do not get into caves until the Pleistocene, and that also would indicate the Pleistocene is after the Flood, which we already believed it was. The conventional model has a very hard time explaining that. So I believe in hypogene speliogenesis. Not only do we have a model for the origin of caves in a biblical timescale, but we actually have a model that explains features of caves that cannot be explained by the conventional model.

ELECTRIC FORCES. Kurt mentions acidic waters etching channels in limestone caves, but the Flood and other cataclysms surely involved very enhanced electrical activity, so electrical forces seem likely to have enhanced the acidity or the etching or erosion capability of the water on the ceilings of caves.
PLEISTOCENE FOSSILS. I found yesterday that the Pleistocene rock strata were those deposited during and at the end of the Ice Age from glaciation, melting glaciers, wind-blown loess, etc. Velikovsky listed in his book, Earth in Upheaval, many fossils found in caves and rock fissures due to cataclysmic floods. Those floods likely occurred during the Younger Dryas cataclysm c 4,500 years ago.

ESKERS FROM IMPACTS?

Eskers are ridges of rock and soil that extend for many miles mostly in Canada and Scandinavia. They show where the main ice sheet/s were located. Eskers were deposited by running water in cracks in the ice sheet. A thought that just occurred to me this morning is that rock and soil could have gotten onto the surface of the ice sheet when large meteorites hit Michigan and maybe other places, like northern Greenland, and the impact explosions ejected rocks and soil onto the ice sheet. It's pretty certain that the impacts ejected ice boulders that formed the Carolina Bays and Nebraska rainwater basins, but there was likely some rock and soil also ejected. If that's the source of the esker sediments, the rocks should surely be angular like breccia instead of rounded. But no, Perplexity.ai gives me a different idea, which I'll discuss after these quotes.

Rocks in eskers are typically rounded rather than angular1,3,4. Here's a more detailed explanation:
Characteristics of Esker Sediments
Eskers are ridges composed of glaciofluvial sediments, primarily sands and gravels, deposited by meltwater flowing through tunnels within or underneath glaciers1. The sediments in eskers have several key characteristics:
Roundness: The rocks and gravels in eskers are generally well-rounded to sub-rounded1,4. This rounding occurs due to the transport process:
As meltwater flows through glacial tunnels, it carries rock fragments and sediments.
These materials experience significant abrasion and erosion during transport.
The constant movement and friction cause the edges and corners of rocks to wear down, resulting in rounded shapes.
Sorting: Esker sediments are often well-sorted, meaning particles of similar sizes are grouped together. This sorting is typical of water-transported sediments.
Composition: Eskers contain a mix of particle sizes, from fine sands to larger gravels and boulders1.
Comparison to Other Glacial Deposits
The rounded nature of esker sediments contrasts with some other types of glacial deposits:
Till: Glacial till, deposited directly by ice, often contains more angular rocks because they haven't undergone the same degree of water transport and abrasion4.
Moraines: While moraines can contain some rounded rocks, they generally have a higher proportion of angular fragments compared to eskers.
Significance
The roundness of rocks in eskers is an important indicator of their formation process. It reflects the role of flowing water in shaping and depositing these sediments, distinguishing eskers from other glacial landforms formed by different mechanisms1,4.
1 https://www.antarcticglaciers.org/glaci ... ms/eskers/
2 https://geologyistheway.com/sedimentary/roundness/
3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conglomerate_(geology)
4 https://www.britannica.com/science/glac ... deposition

{GLACIAL TILL FROM IMPACTS?}

Glacial till and eskers are often found in proximity to each other, but they are distinct glacial deposits formed through different processes. Here's an explanation of their relationship:
Glacial Till and Eskers
Glacial Till:
Glacial till is a direct deposit of glacial ice, consisting of unsorted sediments ranging from clay to boulders.
It is typically deposited beneath or at the margins of glaciers as they advance or retreat.
Till is characterized by its lack of sorting and stratification.
Eskers:
Eskers are long, winding ridges of stratified sand and gravel deposited by meltwater streams flowing within or beneath glaciers13.
They are formed by the accumulation of sediments in subglacial tunnels or channels.
Unlike till, esker sediments are sorted and stratified due to water transport.
Relationship and Proximity
Spatial Association: Eskers are often found in areas where glacial till is present, as both are products of glacial activity.
Sediment Source: The sediments that form eskers may partly originate from the erosion and reworking of glacial till by meltwater streams.
Depositional Environment: While till is deposited directly by ice, eskers represent the paths of meltwater streams that flowed under or within the glacier.
Landscape Context: In formerly glaciated areas, you might find eskers rising above a landscape covered in glacial till.
Composition Differences
Till: Typically consists of a mixture of unsorted sediments, from fine clay to large boulders.
Eskers: Composed primarily of sorted sands and gravels, with occasional boulders3.
Formation Timing
Glacial till can be deposited throughout the glacial period.
Eskers often form during the later stages of glaciation, particularly as glaciers stagnate or retreat3.
While glacial till and eskers are distinct features, their presence in the same area provides valuable information about past glacial environments and processes. The coexistence of these features helps geologists reconstruct the complex history of glacial landscapes.
1 https://www.britannica.com/science/esker
2 https://www.reddit.com/r/geology/commen ... oraine_se/
3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esker

Glacial Till Thickness
In north-east Scotland, thicknesses of 10 m or more are common.
Individual till units up to 15 m thick have been observed in some sequences.
Average Thickness:
The average thickness of glacial till varies. Some examples include:
In central Buchan (Scotland), tills are generally less than 5 m thick.
In some areas, tills become patchy and rarely exceed 2 m in thickness.

Glacial till thicknesses in Canada vary considerably across different regions:
Greater Toronto Area (GTA)
In the Greater Toronto Area, glacial till deposits show significant variability:
The thickness of glacial till deposits can range from a few meters to over 30 meters in some areas.

Rocks in till are called tillites. In a 2018 article at https://creation.com/some-tillites-may-be-impact-debris Michael Oard said some tillites were formed from landslides during the Great Flood and some tillites "may have formed from meteorite or comet impacts. This idea had been put forward by some researchers in the 1990s,11,12 but the idea was strongly challenged by others.13-15"
I think this is an image of Till: https://www.antarcticglaciers.org/wp-co ... 68x543.png
This is a map of eskers in Canada, moraines in the northern U.S. and mud in both areas: https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ice-sheets .

ICE SHEET IMPACT THEORY. Impacts seem to have spread rock, sand & soil ejecta onto the Canadian Ice Sheet. Cracks formed in the ice where the esker lines are shown on the esker map. Melting ice water flowed in these cracks, carrying along some of the till from the surface, which rounded the rocks that formed into eskers. The angular till rocks left on the surface landed on the ground as the ice sheet melted, leaving them angular. I don't know why the rocks in moraines would be mostly angular, unless with the ice pushing the rocks downhill against the ground, the rocks were not carried in streams like the esker rocks were. The Greenland ice sheet is said to have rock fragments within 50 feet of the bottom, but wouldn't impacts have also spread till over the surface there? The till would tend to sink down through the ice, but maybe it's too thin to detect in the 3 locations where ice cores were taken. The following says eskers are still forming today, but in much smaller amounts.

Modern Esker Formation
Active Ice Sheets
Eskers are currently forming beneath the ice sheets in Greenland and Antarctica5. These modern ice sheets provide environments similar to those that created the extensive esker networks found in formerly glaciated regions.
Retreating Glaciers
Some of the best examples of modern esker formation can be observed at retreating glaciers:
Breiðamerkurjökull, Iceland: Researchers have documented the annual evolution and internal structure of an englacial esker emerging from this glacier4. This study provides valuable insights into contemporary esker formation processes.
Svalbard: Eskers have been observed forming at glaciers in this Arctic archipelago, including at Høybyebreen1.
Characteristics of Modern Esker Formation
Formation Environment
Modern eskers can form in various glacial settings:
Subglacial: Within tunnels beneath the ice
Englacial: Inside the glacier ice, often exploiting crevasse networks
Ice-marginal: At the edge of glaciers, sometimes entering glacial lakes
Timescales
The formation of eskers can occur relatively quickly in geological terms:
Englacial eskers may evolve significantly over the course of a single year4.
Longer esker systems likely form "time-transgressively," growing at their headward ends as glaciers retreat1.
Preservation Potential
It's important to note that not all forming eskers will be preserved in the long-term geological record:
Englacial eskers, for example, may have low preservation potential due to post-depositional modification as they melt out of the ice4.
Eskers forming on soft, deformable beds are less likely to be preserved than those on harder substrates2.
Implications
Studying modern esker formation provides valuable insights into glacial processes and helps interpret the extensive esker networks left behind by past ice sheets. However, the smaller scale of most modern glaciers means that the eskers forming today are generally not as extensive as the large systems formed during continental glaciations1.
1 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 2/esp.5664
2 https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/mou ... esker.html
3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esker
4 https://www.britannica.com/science/esker
5 https://www.gov.nt.ca/sites/ecc/files/w ... s_2001.pdf

Esker tunnels form beneath glaciers through a complex interplay of glacial hydrology, ice dynamics, and sediment transport. Here's an overview of how these subglacial tunnels develop:
Tunnel Formation Process
Meltwater Accumulation
Meltwater from the surface of the glacier can reach the base through:
Moulins (vertical shafts in the ice)
Crevasses
General percolation through the ice
This water, combined with meltwater produced at the base of the glacier, accumulates under high pressure beneath the ice1.
Channel Initiation
As water accumulates, it begins to flow in the direction of least resistance:
Initially, water may flow through a network of interconnected cavities
Over time, some flow paths become preferential, concentrating water flow3
Tunnel Expansion
The concentrated flow of water in these preferential paths leads to tunnel formation:
Frictional heat from water flow melts the ice walls, enlarging the tunnel
The tunnel expands upward into the ice due to the inability to erode the bedrock below1
Factors Influencing Tunnel Development
Ice Pressure
The pressure of the overlying ice tends to close the tunnel
This closure is counteracted by the melting of the tunnel walls
Water Pressure
High water pressure can force water to flow uphill against gravity
Pressure fluctuations affect the tunnel's size and shape1
Sediment Supply
Debris from the surrounding glacial ice is released into the water as the tunnel walls melt
This sediment is crucial for esker formation, as it's deposited within the tunnel34
Bed Topography
The underlying terrain influences the path of the tunnel, though not entirely determining it
Tunnels can cross topographic divides due to pressure gradients in the ice4
Tunnel Characteristics
Shape: Tunnels often develop an arched or semi-circular cross-section
Size: Can vary greatly, from small conduits to large tunnels several meters in diameter
Stability: Tunnels may open and close seasonally or in response to changes in water supply
Esker Formation
As these subglacial tunnels carry sediment-laden water:
Coarser sediments (gravel, sand) are deposited within the tunnel
Finer sediments may be carried to the glacier margin
Over time, this deposition builds up the ridge-like structure of the esker3
The process of esker formation is often "time-transgressive," meaning the esker grows at its headward end as the glacier retreats, potentially over thousands of years5.
Understanding the formation of these subglacial tunnels is crucial for interpreting the extensive esker networks left behind by past ice sheets and for studying modern glacial hydrology.
1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esker
2 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/ful ... 2/esp.5664
3 https://www.gov.nt.ca/sites/ecc/files/w ... s_2001.pdf
4 https://serc.carleton.edu/vignettes/col ... 36395.html
5 https://uphere.ca/articles/how-are-eskers-formed

[Lloyd]

317138

EV COCHRANE RE SATURN CONFIGURATION

FEW GODS WERE SATURN
_LK: Ev, do you have any papers in which you identified which ancient gods referred to Saturn? I know your paper, The Saturn Theory, identified Babylonian Shamash as Saturn. I think Dave and/or Dwardu identified An or Anu, Kronos, El, Helios and Sol as Saturn. Were there Crescent gods identified as Saturn, besides Sin, I think?
_EC: There are no crescent gods identified with Saturn. Why would there be? Yes, Dave occasionally spoke as if Sin was Saturn but he was well aware that the crescent was simply a recognizable structure associated with the polar configuration and not explicitly identifiable with any particular planet. Sin and Thoth are identifiable with the polar crescent, pure and simple. Dave's article on the Ship of Heaven examines all of this in great detail and remains an all-time classic analysis. I discuss some of the evidence on my website in an article on Sumerian celestial geography.

PYRAMID AS PRIMEVAL HILL
_LK: Were pyramids built to represent the Primeval Hill? And were obelisks meant to represent the polar columns? If so, were any other structures used similarly, such as totem poles, may poles, etc?
_EC: The pyramids were indeed intended to model or reproduce the primeval mound. That much is agreed upon by virtually every Egyptologist.

PREDYNASTIC GODS
_LK: Is there any evidence that pre-dynastic people also worshiped the same Saturn Configuration gods?
_EC: The polar configuration was definitely observed and recorded in rock art well before the Early Dynastic period. Witness the Irish pictographs at Newgrange reproduced in my various publications. Documenting the worship of such objects is difficult, however, for obvious reasons.

POLAR SYSTEM ENDED BEFORE CIVILIZATION
_LK: I'm trying to get a good approximation when the Saturn Configuration ended and what role Saturn played. Are there any myths that seem to describe the gods leaving the polar configuration permanently?
_EC: As for when the polar configuration disappeared, it certainly occurred during the prehistoric period, perhaps several thousand years before the origin of human civilization in circa 3000 BCE. Here, too, however, it is very difficult to be precise because the history of this period is so uncertain.

SIN CRESCENT & OTHER CRESCENTS
_LK: I haven't posted any of your recent replies yet to the forum. I'm doing some reading and thinking first.
If Shamash is the only god identifiable as Saturn, is it still fairly certain that Saturn was part of the polar configuration. And if the crescent in ancient myths was not the lit part of Saturn, what was it most likely?
_EC: It is comforting to know that someone, somewhere, is still paying attention to these important questions and matters. Additional thinking and pondering is always helpful. Your previous question was whether Sin should be understood as Saturn. Sin was the crescent, pure and simple, much like Thoth was in ancient Egypt. I think it is misleading to attempt to identify either one of these gods with the planet Saturn. As for what the crescent represented from an astronomical standpoint, I continue to operate under the assumption that the crescent was actually on Saturn. But there are other possibilities as well. Remember the crescent-like "claws" of the hour-glass forms reconstructed by Tony Peratt which parallel numerous forms in ancient rock art. These seem to refer to something else than the Sin crescent. So, too, there is reason to believe that the upturned toruses associated with the polar column were conceptualized as a series of crescent link "rungs" or steps. You see these kind of crescentine shapes in ancient royal crowns of Mesopotamia, for example. Once again, I don't think these multi-stacked crescents can be squared with the Sin crescent. As is so often the case in ancient cosmogonic myth, one size, or one theory, rarely explains all the data.

COMMENT
So it seems that crescents in ancient images don't necessarily refer to Saturn, although the god Sin was probably part of Saturn. Ev said Shamash is the only god who likely referred to Saturn, so that makes it sound like the evidence for Saturn being part of the Polar Configuration isn't nearly as strong as I thought. The evidence for Mars and Venus is strong. And the configuration ended before civilization began.

[Lloyd]

317244

MY ONLINE BOOKS

I found that it's pretty easy to write books on Substack, first by writing posts, then by putting links to each post in another post and giving that post the title of the book. The Electric Astrophysics book is Charles Chandler's. I put it on Substack for him. Luckily I did it before his website became inaccessible. Some of it's still accessible by searches. His posts on this forum are still accessible too. I haven't heard from him for over a year, but he had said he suffered a stroke. Hopefully, he can recover.

Another neat thing about Substack is that my books can be updated as often as I like. And they can be called books before they're even completed. I want to revise my dates for ancient cataclysms a little, when I get a chance. I found a few shortcuts for adding links and images to posts. You can add images by using Substack's Image icon, but you can also skip that and just copy an image from online or from an app like Paint and paste it directly into the post. I sometimes get Copilot AI to make a picture and I then paste that in. I also get images from videos, using the PrntScrn key on my computer. Youtube videos get embedded just by writing the URL in the post.

There's another book I started on called Science Revolution, but I haven't done much with it yet. I want to include in it arguments against a lot of mainstream nonsense and for a lot of sensible alternative science.

CATACLYSMIC EARTH HISTORY (2023) https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/cataclys ... th-history
ANCIENT MYTHS ARE EARTH HISTORY (2023) https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/ancient- ... ry-history
CATACLYSMIC HISTORY SOURCES & BIBLIOGRAPHY (2023) https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/cataclys ... ient-myths
ELECTRIC ASTROPHYSICS (2024) https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/electric-astrophysics

CONTENTS OF EACH BOOK

CATACLYSMIC EARTH HISTORY
CONTENTS:
1..4 PROOF SEDIMENTARY ROCK IS NOT OLD
2..4 DATING METHODS and MORE ON DATING METHODS
3a..3 THE GREAT FLOOD ———————— 3300 BC
3b..3 PREFLOOD TO POSTFLOOD WORLD
3c..3 PREFLOOD MEGALITHIC STRUCTURES?
4..1 EARTH & MOON IMPACTS ———————— 3300 BC
5..2 MEGATSUNAMIS
6..5 SEDIMENTARY ROCK MEGASEQUENCES — CAVES FORMATION
7..6 STRATA FORMATION ———————— 3300 BC
8..-1 PANGAEA FORMATION ———————— 5000 BC or before
9..-1 OCEANS, AIR & GIANT CREATURES
NOAH’S ARK ———————— (to do)
10a..6 THE FOSSIL RECORD
10b..6 ELECTRIC FOSSILIZATION
10c..6 DINOSAURS LAST STAND
DINOSAURS HAD WEAKER GRAVITY
DINOSAUR BIOTENSEGRITY V. GRAVITY
11a..6 COAL FORMATION ———————— 3300 BC
11b..6 PETROLEUM & NATURAL GAS
12..7 PANGAEA BREAKUP ———————— 3300 BC
13a..8 CATACLYSMIC VOLCANISM
13b..8 SUPERVOLCANOES
13c..8 OZ GEO VOLCANISM VIDEOS
14..8 CONTINENTAL RADIOACTIVITY
15..9 GRAND CANYON FORMATION ———————— 3300 BC
16a..10 ICE AGE
16b..10 FROZEN MAMMOTHS
17a..11 YOUNGER DRYAS CATACLYSMS ———————— 2600 BC
17b..11 Y.D. ICE SHEET IMPACT & MASSACRE — ESKERS & ICE SHEETS
GLACIAL MELTWATER FLOODS
17c..11 COLUMBIA RIVER BASALT GROUP ———————— 2600 BC
WASHINGTON SCABLANDS FLOOD
17c..11 ORIGIN OF MATRIARCHIES & AMAZONS
18a..12 POST Y.D. TSUNAMIS & IMPACTS
18b..12 2300 BC IMPACTS & MEGATSUNAMIS ———————— 2300 BC

ANCIENT MYTHS ARE EARTH HISTORY
CONTENTS:
SATURN THEORY OVERVIEW
UPDATE 4/17/24: I think mythology might have had this chronological order: CREATION> POLAR CONFIGURATION> WAR IN HEAVEN> SATURN DEPARTURE> NEW KING
10/20/24: NEW TIMEFRAME FOR THE SATURN CONFIGURATION
CARDONA’S SATURN FINDINGS 5/8/24 (partly completed)
-2 THE AGE OF DARKNESS (E.C. thinks it was of short duration.)
-1 SATURN NOVA
— SATURN NOVA AT YOUNGER DRYAS
— OARD V. CARDONA ON YOUNGER DRYAS
1 THE GOLDEN AGE
2 THE GOLDEN AGE - EYE OF ZEUS
FROM GOLDEN AGE TO DOOMSDAY
EC: MARS/VENUS EVENTS
3a ANCIENT CIVILIZATION TIMELINES
3b THOTH ON ANCIENT CIVILIZATION
3c TOWER OF BABEL
3d ORIGIN OF EGYPTIAN CIVILIZATION
4 EARLY ANCIENT CIVILIZATION WAS FAIRLY ADVANCED
4 MATHIS ON ADVANCED ANCIENT CIVILIZATION
5 NO SUPER-ADVANCED ANCIENT TECH
6 ARTIFACTS IN COAL ARE NOT ANCIENT
7 ANCIENT MYTHS
8a LANGUAGE ORIGINS - PART 1 — PART 2
9 SATURN THEORY
10 SATURN-MADE CATASTROPHES
11 SATURN SYSTEM CATACLYSMS
12 HISTORY OF THE SATURN TRAIN
13a JUPITER SYSTEM
13b THE JUPITER TRAIN
14 HALLOWEEN & YOUNGER DRYAS - PART 1 — PART 2
15 DEAD SEA AIRBURST
16 BIBLICAL JACOB & JOSEPH
17 MOSES & JOSHUA
18 ISRAELITE EXODUS
19 THE EXODUS COMET
20 BRONZE AGE COLLAPSE
21 REVISED ANCIENT CHRONOLOGY
22 RELIGION
23 TYING MYTHS TO EARTH HISTORY

CATACLYSMIC HISTORY SOURCES & BIBLIOGRAPHY
CONTENTS:
BIBLIOGRAPHY
CREATIONISM, MYTH & CATASTROPHISM p. 51
CREATIONISM LINKS: ARTICLES & VIDEOS
MYTHOLOGY VIDEOS LINKS: THUNDERBOLTS
MYTHOLOGY ARTICLES LINKS: THOTH
MYTHOLOGY ARTICLES: THOTH 1:1 - 2:16
MYTHOLOGY ARTICLES: THOTH 2:17 - 4:13
MYTHOLOGY ARTICLES: THOTH 4:14 - 7:7
ELECTRIC UNIVERSE VIDEOS LINKS
LAND OF CHEM MEGALITHS CHANNEL

ELECTRIC ASTROPHYSICS
CONTENTS:
(Note: TBF means from this TB Forum)
OVERVIEW #1. 8/28/23
ELECTROSTATIC STELLAR ACCRETION #2. 9/4/23
INTERSTELLAR FILAMENTS #3. 9/19/23
TBF INTERSTELLAR FILAMENTS STAR FORMATION #33. 8/23/24
SUPERNOVA #6. 10/16/23
TOKAMAK EXOTIC STARS FORMATION #4. 9/22/23
EGG NEBULA NATURAL TOKAMAK #5. 10/4/23
MAIN SEQUENCE STARS #21. 2/8/24
STELLAR LIFE SPANS #22. 2/9/24
STELLAR DISTANCES #22. 2/9/24
TBF STELLAR METAMORPHOSIS 1 — SM2 — SM3 — SM4 — SM5 #35. 10/26/24
QUASARS #7. 10/18/23
TBF NO BLACK HOLES #27. 3/31/24
GALAXIES #23. 2/20/24
SPACE IS A SUPERCONDUCTOR #34. 9/16/24
THE SUN
Motivation #8. 10/24/23
Surface: Non-Newtonian #8. 10/24/23
Interior: Zones #9. 10/31/23
Elements: Solar Composition #10. 11/9/23
Potential: Electric Double Layers #11. 11/20/23
Conversion: Electrical Energy Source #11. 11/20/23
Energy Budget of Sun-Forming Filament #12. 12/1/23
Black Body Radiation from Sun’s Supercritical Fluid #13. 12/16/23
Granules #14. 12/20/23
Sunspots #15. 12/30/23
Coronal Mass Ejections #16. 1/2/24
Arcades #16. 1/2/24
Corona #16. 1/2/24
Heliosphere #17. 1/12/24
Solar Cycle #18. 1/16/24
Conclusion & Appendices (Model Checker) #19. 1/23/24
Appendices 2 (Cathode Sun) #20. 1/24/24
Appendices 3 (Composition) #20. 1/24/24
TBF THE SUN’S DENSITY GRADIENT #29. 6/27/24
TBF CRITIQUE OF SCOTT'S ELECTRIC SUN #30. 7/9/24
TBF CHARLES CHANDLER’S 2011 MODEL OF THE SUN #32. 8/18/24
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ELECTRIC GEOPHYSICS
THE PLANETS
INTRODUCTION #24. 3/4/24
TBF AXIAL & ORBITAL ROTATIONS #31. 7/27/24
ORBITAL SPACING: TITIUS-BODE LAW #24. 3/4/24
SURFACE CRUSTS #24. 3/4/24
GEOMAGNETISM #25. 3/8/24
TIDES #25. 3/8/24
EARTH: MOHO DISCONTINUITY #35. 10/26/24
EARTHQUAKES #25. 3/8/24
VOLCANOES #25. 3/8/24
TBF ATMOSPHERES LOCKED ON PLANETS #31. 7/27/24
THUNDERSTORMS & TORNADOES - PART 1 - - PART 2 - - PART 3 #25. 3/8/24
JET STREAMS & HURRICANES #28. 4/17/24
SENECA GUNS OR SKYQUAKES #25. 3/8/24
(MISCELLANEOUS)
COMETS #26. 3/20/24
METEORIC AIRBURSTS #26. 3/20/24
IMPACT CRATERS #26. 3/20/24
MIRAGES #28. 4/17/24
WIND-BLOWN SLIDING ROCKS #28. 4/17/24
TBF CHARLES’S THUNDERBOLTS.INFO FORUM DISCUSSIONS #12+. 12/2/23

[Lloyd]

318417

WAS SATURN PART OF THE POLAR CONFIGURATION?

Ev Cochrane said Shamash, the Sumerian sun-god, is the only god that he could find that was clearly associated with planet Saturn. So that makes me wonder how solid the evidence is that Shamash actually referred to Saturn, because why wouldn't other peoples also mention Saturn as their sun-god? Dwardu Cardona identified numerous gods of other peoples as Saturn, so I hope to get Ev's opinion on why Dwardu's identifications are wrong. I plan to start with Helios and El. Helios isn't all that ancient, it seems, but El should be pretty ancient. I suppose Helios could have derived from El. Below is what I plan to send to Ev shortly.

Ev, you said Shamash is the only ancient god you've been able to identify as Saturn. So below I'm quoting from Dwardu's book, Newborn Star, regarding Helios and El, which he identified with Saturn, along with the references that he used. Would you please comment on why he was wrong and tell us which planet these gods actually referred to and which of your articles help prove this? Was the circular serpent actually Venus? Thanks for any help. Which of your writings have identified Shamash as Saturn? And, if Saturn was part of the polar configuration, why would other peoples not have mentioned Saturn? Is it because Saturn was inactive and people focused on the active planets, Venus and Mars? If some of the Israelites worshiped El and/or Moloch, was that Venus instead of Saturn?

NEWBORN STAR: HELIOS
p.180. An ancient Greek tract dictates the manner in which the god Helios should be engraved on a purple gem. While keeping in mind that the ancient Greeks themselves equated Helios with Kronos, that is Saturn, before the name got transferred to the Sun,1 we note that, according to this tract, Helios should be shown as a "thick-bodied snake in the shape of a wreath" with "its tail in its mouth." As in the Egyptian example mentioned above, a scarab was also to be engraved within the circular coil of the serpent.2
1 F. Boll, "Kronos-Helios," Archiv fur Religionwissenschaft, XIX (1916-1919), pp. 343 ff.
2 H. D. Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation: Including the Demotic Spells (Chicago, 1992), spell 12: 274-276.

p.291. That Dionysos was the embodiment of Saturn, we need not repeat.1 Moreover, Dionysos was also called Helios,2 whom the Greeks themselves identified as the planet Saturn before the name got transferred to the present Sun.3
1 D. Cardona, God Star (Victoria, British Columbia, 2006), p. 312; idem, Flare Star (Victoria, British Columbia, 2007),pp.92, 114, 127-128.
2 W. A. Heidel, The Day of Yahweh (London, 1929), p. 481.
3 F. Boll, "Kronos-Helios," Archiv fur Religionwissenschaft, XIX (1916-1919), pp. 343 ff.

NEWBORN STAR: EL
p.296. In the end we could simply point to Claudius Ptolemy who reported that the inhabitants of Mesopotamia revered the star of Saturn "as Mithras Helios,"8 which again presents Helios as one of the original names of the planet Saturn. It might have been due to this particular name that Anthony Aveni referred to Mithras as "the Persian sun god."9 He did, however, indicate that the god's "dualistic counterpart was Saturn, the sun of night."10 This is so true that, unlike the present Sun, the Helios in question was said to have "come to the celestial pole," 11 where proto-Saturn had for long been stationed.
8 Claudius Ptolemy, Tetrabiblos, 2:3:64.
9 A. Aveni, Conversing With the Planets (Boulder, Colorado, 2002), p. 156.
10 Ibid. (emphasis added); D. Cardona, God Star (Victoria, British Columbia, 2006), pp. 141 ff.
11 H. D. Betz, The Greek Magical Papyri in Translation (Chicago, 1986), p. 51.

p.28. Philo Byblius, and other classical sources, as well as inscriptions in Greek and Latin, wrote Frank Moore Cross, all establish the identity of El as the Greek Kronos, the same as the Latin Saturnus.2 Moreover, as Cross well pointed out, this equation has long been known, while new information continues to confirm the older data.3 William Albright was therefore right on track when he identified El as the Latin Saturnus without much ado.4
2 F. M. Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic: Essays in the History of the Religion of Israel (Cambridge, 1973), p. 25.
3 Ibid.
4 W. F. Albright, Yahweh and the Gods a/Canaan (N. Y., 1968), p. 144.

THE BOUND AND BINDING GOD
p.253. In conformity with this understanding, we point to khalamuth, an ancient Hebrew word for "egg" that is derived from khalam-both words variously transcribed-the latter of which means "to bind."4 Together with the binding of Khima as derived above, this, again, has special meaning since it was the resulting encircling bands we have been discussing that ended up "binding" the Creator. In fact, despite Aimo Nurtonen's disputation,5 the Hebrew Creator's name of El had earlier been suggested by Otto Procksch to be derived from a root meaning "to bind."6
4 J. Strong, op. cit., p. 40.
5 A. Murtonen, A Philological Treatise on the Old Testament Divine Names (Helsinki, 1952), pp. 34-35.
6 O. Procksch, Theologie des Alten Testaments (Giltersloh, 1950), p. 444.

p.342. On the other hand, that "Goddess" is there rendered "Elohim" needs clarification. That Elohim is the plural of the god known as El or Eloah is well known.5 This is what is known as the "majestic plural" that is used "to confer status or majesty" on whoever it is applied to.6
5 A. Murtonen, A Philological Treatise on the Old Testament Divine Names (Helsinki, 1952), pp. 34-35.
6 O. Procksch, Theologie des Alten Testaments (Giltersloh, 1950), p. 444.

p.393. Let no one now surmise that the Egyptians may have incorrectly identified Anat's Canaanite father as their own Ra. In the Ugaritic pantheon itself, Anat was considered to have been the daughter of El,9 whose identity as Saturn should be well known to the readers of this volume and its prequels.
9 F. G. Bratton, Myths and Legends of the Ancient Near East (N. Y., 1970), p. 110; H. Shanks, "Goddess Cleared
of Cannibalism," Biblical Archaeology Review (January/February 1998), p. 22.

p.410. Once in Israel, they continued to honor Baal-zephon as is evidenced by the fact that a city of Ephraim was actually called by his very name.9 Needless to say, the Israelites knew exactly who Baal-zephon was. This is indicated by the Israelite name Elizaphan,10 the meaning of which is El is Zephon. Since El, as we have seen, was one of the god Saturn's Semitic names, Ba'al Tsaphon's identity is all the more finnly established.
9 Aavius Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, VII: 174
10 Numbers 3: 30-31; I Chronicles 15: 8; II Chronicles 29: 13.

[Lloyd]

Ev replied already as follows.

{HELIOS & DIONYSUS}
I conducted an extensive analysis of Saturn's (and/or Kronos') cult at some point although I can't locate it at the moment. I'll send it along later this week once I can locate it.... Suffice it to say that all of Dwardu's evidence is late (Helios=Saturn), secondary in nature, and/or fundamentally flawed
(i.e., Dionysus has absolutely nothing to do with the planet Saturn. No serious scholar has ever made this claim. Mind you, this does not necessarily prove it wrong, but it should warrant caution).
Take Helios: There is no compelling {evidence?} whatsoever from the Greek sources, all late, that this god has anything to do with the planet Saturn. All we have is a very late, obscure, identification of Helios with Ra and/or other gods in some text (Boll). Again, these are all very late planetary identifications modeled after the Babylonian parallels (Nabu=Mercury, for example). One might as well try and identify the Greek Apollo with Stilbon/Mercury based on the same logic (or lack thereof).

{SATURN & KRONOS}
Note also that there is an additional level of confusion in Dwardu's argument: He simply assumes that Roman Saturn and Greek Kronos are to be identified with the planet Saturn. Once again, there is nothing whatsoever in the Greek or Latin texts to support such an identification in early times (in the Iliad or Odyssey, say). Rather, the very late identification of Kronos/Saturn with the planet of that name is Babylonian in origin. At no point does Dwardu offer a systematic study of Kronos's religion to see what the god was actually all about.

{SHAMASH}
So far as I know, I am the only comparativist to perform such an exercise and it provides zero support for a Saturnian identification. In short, the whole house of cards crumbles under its own weight of bogus assumptions. The case of Babylonian Shamash is entirely different: He is identified with the planet Saturn already in the second millennium BCE in astronomical texts. It is not quite clear why the Babylonians made this identification and there's simply not enough extant evidence to sort it all out satisfactorily. It's a fascinating datum, but not exactly the sort of datum that provides a secure foundation for overturning all of modern astronomy.

CREATION EVENT
Ev didn't comment yet on whether Helios etc might be Venus. Maybe I'll ask again. But mainly I think my next questions might be: Was there a black sun, a sun of night? Which planet appeared to brighten severely at "Creation"? How could such brightening have occurred if it wasn't a brown dwarf flaring up? All these years I thought Dave Talbott and Dwardu Cardona had very similar findings about Saturn being the original sun-god. But now Ev is undermining those assumptions. I thought Dwardu had tended to confirm Velikovsky's original supposition that Saturn went nova in ancient times, but Ev suggests that that's all doubtful. I'm curious if there could have been a polar column without Saturn. I guess that's what Ev may be implying. There are plenty more questions. If you go back through my early posts in this thread, you'll see numerous discussions by me and occasionally others of the Saturn Configuration. I guess I need to go back through all those and say Oops, my mistake. Well, I'm curious what he found out about Shamash being Saturn. How was Shamash/Saturn described? Why is he sure of the identity?

{SHAMASH}
Here's how Perplexity.ai summarizes info on Shamash.

Shamash, also known as Utu, was an important deity in ancient Mesopotamian mythology, particularly in Babylonian and Akkadian cultures. Here's a summary of the key aspects and stories about Shamash:
Nature and Attributes
Shamash was primarily known as:
The god of the sun
The god of justice, truth, and morality
A member of the astral triad along with Sin (moon god) and Ishtar (Venus goddess)
The twin brother of Inanna and son of the moon god Sin/Nanna
Powers and Responsibilities
Shamash was believed to:
Bring light, warmth, and life to the world
Disperse darkness and expose evil
Judge both gods and humans
Protect travelers and vagabonds
Govern the universe and the underworld at night
Depictions and Symbols
Shamash was often portrayed as:
An old man with a long beard and rays of light emanating from his shoulders
Riding across the sky in a chariot pulled by fiery mules
Holding symbols of justice like a staff and a ring
Associated with a solar disc, sometimes winged in later periods
Mythology and Stories
Key stories involving Shamash include:
Providing the laws to King Hammurabi for his famous code
Helping Gilgamesh defeat Humbaba in the Cedar Forest
Judging the underworld during the night
Assisting in divination rituals and providing fair answers
Worship and Influence
Major cult centers were in Sippar and Larsa
Temples called E-babbar ("White House" or "Shining House") were dedicated to him
He was invoked for justice, protection, and guidance
His worship spread throughout Mesopotamia and influenced later cultures
Shamash was viewed as a benevolent and ethical deity, rarely appearing in myths unless circumstances warranted his intervention1,3,4.
1. https://mythlok.com/shamash/
3. https://www.britannica.com/topic/Shamash
4. https://ancientart.as.ua.edu/shamash-the-sun-god/

[Lloyd]

SHAMASH, SUN-GOD, SATURN

Ev indicated that Shamash was definitely identified as Saturn by the Babylonians. And A.I. above said Shamash was called the sun-god, so that seems to put Saturn back in the polar configuration. So now I looked for Shamash in Dwardu's book, Metamorphic Star.

METAMORPHIC STAR: SHAMASH
p.59. El, whom we've already met, the very deity at the head of various Canaanite pantheons, was equated with the Assyro-Babylonian Shamash8 - and Shamash, as we have shown,9 was a name which the Babylonians bestowed on the Sun as well as on the planet Saturn. At a later time, the Phoenicians (who were also Canaanites) continued to refer to the same El as Kronos,10 the Greek name of the planet Saturn. But, in the meantime, El was also the name they applied to the Roman Sun-god, Sol,11 since that name, too, had originally belonged to Saturn (see below).
8 W. F. Albright, Yahweh and the Gods of Canaan (N. Y., 1968), p. 141.
9 Check the Index to God Star; see also Flare Star, pp. 113, 132, 137.
10 W. A. Heidel, The Day of Yahweh (N. Y., 1929), p. 470.
11 T. W. Doane, Bible Myths and their Parallels in Other Religions (N. Y ., 1882), p. 484.

p.66. Enlil himself was referred to as Belos and/or Bel,6 sometimes as the "older" Bel,7 whose identity as Saturn we have elsewhere shown.8 In addition to that, Enlil was also equated with Shamash,9 which, again unfortunately, rendered him a Sun-god in the minds of some mythologists.10 But that, very much like Surya, the name Shamash was originally bestowed on Saturn need not be re-stressed.
6 F. Guirand, "Assyro-Babylonian Mythology," New Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology (London, 1972), p. 55.
7 D. A. Mackenzie, Myths of Babylonia and Assyria (London, 1915), re-issued as Mythology of the Babylonian People (London, 1996), p. 35.
8 Flare Star, pp. 303, 347, 472, where various sources are cited.
9 S. H. Langdon, Semitic Mythology, Vol. V of The Mythology of all Races (N. Y., 1964), pp. 61, 63.
10 Ibid.

p.308. More recently, on the basis of additional evidence, Ev Cochrane has ably demonstrated that Huwawa was merely "Shamash in monstrous guise," since both these deities share certain specific mythological attributes.4 As he, in fact, concludes: " ... the similarities between Huwawa and Shamash are so close as to amount to a virtual identification. And given the fact that Shamash was originally identified with the planet Saturn, it is most significant to find that Huwawa has also been identified with that planet."5
4 E. Cochrane, "Heracles and the Planet Mars," AEON 1:4 (1988), p. 96.
5 Ibid., p. 97; see also idem, Martian Metamorphoses: The Planet Mars in Ancient Myth and Religion (Ames, 1997), pp. 9-10

MORE SATURN GODS?
So Dwardu thought those people in his references showed that El, Shamash, Kronos and Sol were Saturn, Enlil, Belos, Bel, Surya and Shamash were Saturn, and he said Ev apparently said Huwawa and Shamash were Saturn. I'd better ask Ev if he has read all those references and if he disagrees with Dwardu's conclusions.

[Lloyd]

318527

ROCK ART TO SUMER & EGYPT?
I said to Ev, "Since petroglyphs apparently were made from direct observation of the polar sky, is there evidence that any of the images made in Sumerian or Egyptian etc structures were copied from petroglyphs? Or is there evidence that the Sumerians, Egyptians etc were aware of petroglyphs and their meanings?"

Ev replied: "At this very moment I am researching the earliest Mesopotamian images of the swastika and perusing the various scholarly works online. Swastikas already show up around 6000 BCE. At that time, of course, precious little remains to allow us to be certain about much of anything. But it is well known, and commonly acknowledged, that the earliest hieroglyphic scripts of Mesopotamia and Egypt derived their glyphs from preexisting pictographs and, in most cases, must have assigned a "meaning to them" -- i.e., the Egyptian image for "town, city" features a cross-like image doubtless referencing the polar configuration and the solar wheel. The same is true of the earliest Mesopotamian glyph for wall/city. Of course much of that "knowledge" remains unknown to modern scholars."

ORGANIZING/ARRANGING ANCIENT IMAGES

HUMANOIDS AS POLAR COLUMN?
I wrote to Ev saying, "lately, since Dave initially found that the ancients saw the polar configuration as a standing angel form with upraised arms etc, I've been wondering if many of the humanoid forms of gods and goddesses were also based on the same polar column appearance etc. I copied about all of the humanoid images from your Turquoise Sun videos at https://lenkinder.substack.com/p/ec-images and organized them by similar themes or motifs.
I.e. pole star, crescent, winged person, ball hat, hawk head, sit on lotus, bishop hat (looks like a chess bishop), ball in air, man throw trident at winged creature (Mars & Venus?), eye goddess, twin peaks, head gear.
I thought it might be worthwhile listing the place & date for each image."

DOES ROCK ART CONVERT TO ANCIENT RELIGIOUS THEMES?
"I also listed common ancient rock art themes at the bottom. I thought of adding squatterman images, but that would probably need a separate post. I'm wondering if many rock art figures can convert into many of the Sumerian & Egyptian etc images, similar to the way you and Dave have sometimes shown with squatterman & concentric circles etc."

CONDITIONS NEEDED FOR RAYED STARS
"Just now I started wondering what conditions would have been required for a light source, the pole star, to appear to have rays, to look like a 4, 8, or 16-pointed star etc."

WHAT WERE THE GOD HATS & HAWK HEAD?
"What ideas do you have about the various hats that the gods wore? I remember that Dave figured the "bishop hat" could have been the appearance of Mars and Venus in close conjunction with streamers, plasma, or dust between them. Do you think something in the polar column could have resembled a hawk head (Horus)?
The hat types I noticed are beehive hat, dunce hat, ball hat, bishop hat, pipe hat, pipe-bishop hat, comet hat, horn hat.
Just wondering if you think this sort of arranging of ancient images may be productive, or if it's already been done."