Does faraday-motor model apply to elliptical galaxies?

[BABOafrica]

Stephen Smith wrote:

"When current flows through the homopolar motor's conductive disc in a magnetic field, a force acts on the charges in the conductor, producing torque that causes the disc to spin around its pivot point."

This seems to work well to explain a spiral galaxy. Does it apply to an elliptical galaxy?

[Sparky]

Stephen Smith wrote:

"When current flows through the homopolar motor's conductive disc in a magnetic field, a force acts on the charges in the conductor, producing torque that causes the disc to spin around its pivot point."

This seems to work well to explain a spiral galaxy. Does it apply to an elliptical galaxy?

Why not?...electrical forces would overcome any gravitational ones, if that is what you are thinking. it wouldn't be like the one oblong wheel i have on my car...

[Aristarchus]

"When current flows through the homopolar motor's conductive disc in a magnetic field, a force acts on the charges in the conductor, producing torque that causes the disc to spin around its pivot point."

Stephen Smith attributes this to the research and positing of Hannes Alfvén. I must state that you ask an interesting question that I would also like answered from the more informed members of this forum. I must admit I'm a bit confused as it relates to the following article that has already been discussed at the TPOD forum:

The Sombrero Galaxy by Stephen Smith

The Sombrero Galaxy is actually much larger than what can be seen in the image above. The galaxy is surrounded by a halo of stars, dust and gas that indicate it may actually be an elliptical galaxy that contains a more robust interior configuration. Shorter time exposures reveal distinct spiral arms radiating from the center and it is referred to as a “spiral galaxy” by astronomers. M104 is surrounded by globular clusters in the hundreds – a much richer population than our own Milky Way or most other observed galactic bulges.

Then ... further down:

In 1981, Hannes Alfvén presented his hypothesis for “electric galaxies”. He said that galaxies are actually very much like a device invented by Michael Faraday, the homopolar motor. A homopolar motor is driven by magnetic fields induced in a circular aluminum plate or some other sufficiently conductive metal. The metal plate is placed between the poles of an electromagnet that causes it to spin at a steady rate proportional to the input current. The meter attached to the wall in most backyards that determines monthly electric bills is a homopolar motor. So, what does this mean for galactic genesis and evolution?

Galaxies exist within an inconceivably large filamentary circuit of electricity that flows through the cosmos from beginning to end. There is no way to know where this current flow rises, or to what electrode it is attracted, but we see the effects of its electromagnetic fields in the magnetism and synchrotron radiation that permeate space. That electricity organizes itself within fields of plasma that are sometimes larger than galaxy clusters. The plasma is composed of neutral atoms, but a small fraction of electrons, protons and other charged particles are also present. Those particles, and the charge-neutral ones they sweep along with them, are driven by the larger electromagnetic field to form “pinches” of matter.

For me, I cannot discern whether the author is working on the assumption that the Sombrero Galaxy is elliptical or spiral within the article. Furthermore, it's my understanding that the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy is elliptical but also a satellite galaxy, and since this Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy is now believed to have been the originator of our Sun, as opposed to the Milky Way, and that elliptical galaxies are considered the most massive and contain nothing or almost all old stars, is the Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy a different classification than a regular elliptical galaxy?

My question would be as to just how the EU model views exactly the elliptical galaxies, and does it reflect in some manner to the classification and evolution of galaxies according to Arp?

[Sparky]

if it has electrical currents it will spin.

[BABOafrica]

Saying that it will spin if it has electrical currents isn't saying much. It could be spinning for lots of reasons.

What I'm ultimately driving at is origin.

The consensus model for ellipticals has a pretty good gravity explanation for the formation of an elliptical from two spirals. So, this is the topic that am I raising when I ask:

Does the faraday-motor model apply to elliptical galaxies?

If so, why is the shape elliptical and not spiral?

Joe

[Sparky]

Saying that it will spin if it has electrical currents isn't saying much. It could be spinning for lots of reasons.

hmmmmm, well i thought that you accepted EU....
will a faraday motor spin without current through it?
speculation is that spirals spin because of current.
so, instead of assuming that the other galaxies formed using the same electrical forces, you want to question EU theory by now suggesting that gravity or some other strange force is responsible for spin?

What I'm ultimately driving at is origin.

The consensus model for ellipticals has a pretty good gravity explanation for the formation of an elliptical from two spirals. So, this is the topic that am I raising when I ask:

I reject the consensus model as nonsense.

Does the faraday-motor model apply to elliptical galaxies?

Reason it out....If you hold to the speculation of how galaxies form from electrical input, and that electrical currents initiate and maintain a spin, such as a faraday motor, then why would some galaxies not have electrical current and thus spin.?

No one knows from actually measuring the forces within a galaxy.
It is all experiment based, and observed speculation. I accept the logic that it is all electrical in the beginning of galaxy formation, and as electrical forces wane, gravitation becomes locally dominate.

If so, why is the shape elliptical and not spiral?

Joe

Computer models, speculations, show that galaxies evolve.


Electrical forces and gravity combine to exert extremely complex forces. Make up a theory. If you can get a computer simulation to produce what you want, then you can say that you Know Why. It will be a speculation, but as good as any!

[BABOafrica]

For the record, please note that I think that the EU theory is a reasonable theory that deserves more attention than it is getting. My only regret is that is does not get enough attention by the mainstream astronomers.

That said, I would like to come back to my original question: Does the faraday-motor model apply to elliptical galaxies? So far, I have noticed that most of the Thunderbolts articles speak only of the spiral galaxies when explaining how they closely resemble the workings of a faraday motor. Ergo, the question. Does the faraday-motor model apply to elliptical galaxies?

The fact that ellipticals rotate, as do spirals, does not necessarily mean that faraday-motor model explains why they are rotating. Not knowing enough about the topic to say one way or the other, I was hoping for an explanation that covers the peculiarity of the elliptical shape -- which resembles a enormous globular cluster more than the disk shape one associates with a faraday motor.

It is not sufficient to say that gravity influences the mix in complex ways. There is just as much gravity working in a spiral galaxy as an elliptical. So why the difference in shape?

Cheers,
Joe

[davesmith_au]

Giday Joe, whilst I cannot give anything like a definitive answer to your query, I can say this:

The gravity-centric models of the universe (and thus all the bodies/formations within it) must ASSUME initial rotation. Angular momentum, whilst at pains to tell us it must be conserved, is none-the-less never explained. It's just "there".

Contrast that with the knowledge that rotation is a natural consequence of electric current flow, particularly so when Birkeland currents interact.

Some will ask, of course, where the electric currents come from, and will point out that because we don't know, we're indulging in pseudoscience. Yet they cannot explain the origin of angular momentum either. The gravity-centric models require exotic, unknown entities which even allow the breakdown of the "known laws of physics" (black holes, for instance). I'd rather put my money on a model which negates the need of these entities, instead relying on the known laws of physics (and electrodynamics). The big bang and all it evolves seem to me to be a requirement of those who want to be able to say they know the origin of the universe. I'm quite happy to accept that I don't know, nor am I likely too.

As to the differences between spiral and elliptical galaxies, I cannot even speculate. I hope this helps, though it doesn't answer your query.

Cheers, Dave.

[Sparky]

For the record, please note that I think that the EU theory is a reasonable theory that deserves more attention than it is getting. My only regret is that is does not get enough attention by the mainstream astronomers.

That said, I would like to come back to my original question: Does the faraday-motor model apply to elliptical galaxies? So far, I have noticed that most of the Thunderbolts articles speak only of the spiral galaxies when explaining how they closely resemble the workings of a faraday motor. Ergo, the question. Does the faraday-motor model apply to elliptical galaxies?

The fact that ellipticals rotate, as do spirals, does not necessarily mean that faraday-motor model explains why they are rotating. Not knowing enough about the topic to say one way or the other, I was hoping for an explanation that covers the peculiarity of the elliptical shape -- which resembles a enormous globular cluster more than the disk shape one associates with a faraday motor.

It is not sufficient to say that gravity influences the mix in complex ways. There is just as much gravity working in a spiral galaxy as an elliptical. So why the difference in shape?

Cheers,
Joe

well, your question was answered in my first post...that you still do not understand indicates, to me, confusion. Joe, life, the world, the solar system, the universe is not neat and tidy!

Siblings from the same parents look different! That we can study, but still do not have many of the answers that we seek. Even so, there is much speculation.

Galaxies are a long way off and difficult to study. We infer! We speculate from what knowledge we have. We reason!

If the shape of a galaxy, because of electrical and gravitational forces that we can not measure comes up, during it's evolution, with a shape that appears to be unusual then we can only speculate from what little we understand.

The short answer was my first post, for those who understand that no one has a tidy, complete explanation that can be given to someone who needs a tidy explanation.

If you need a tidy explanation, make up one, dark matter, black hole, warped space, etc., otherwise there isn't any, other than speculation, reasoning, using a small amount of knowledge ....

sorry , but the universe is not tidy and neat.