Yes, I am speaking of the standard model. In my model, the energy is retained. (See below.)willendure wrote:Is this also true of the standard model with a gravity only collapse? I mean in the sense that the dust cloud needs to lose 99% of its energy to collapse into a star?CharlesChandler wrote: So basically, it has to radiate away 99% of the thermal energy in the original dusty plasma, so that when compressed, it isn't 100 times more temperature and pressure than the force of gravity can contain.
And what a bunch of astro-babble you're getting there!!! In the special case of star formation, hydrogen has a negative heat capacity...willendure wrote:I'm posting some of these questions up on physics stack exchange too:
The standard model starts out with a bunch of assumptions about how the only two factors are gravity and pressure. Then, when the physics doesn't work out, they just corrupt the physics so that they get the answer they want. In reality, hydrogen does not have a negative heat capacity.
You won't find a true answer anywhere in there.willendure wrote:Or is the answer that the energy is contained in the hydrogen that is going to be reacted to helium, and that is far bigger than the gravitational potential energy in the gas cloud?
Yes, in my model, the energy isn't radiated away. Rather, it gets converted, from hydrostatic potential, to electrostatic potential.willendure wrote:In your electrical model, ff you replace standard model gravitational potential energy in the dust cloud, with electrical potential energy in the dust cloud between ions, do you not end up with a far bigger initial energy budget, and therefore need to lose even more energy to get a collapse? Is the energy really being radiated away during the collapse, or does it somehow end up inside the star instead?
To understand my model, let's consider a spherically imploding plasma. As I mentioned in a previous post, at any velocity at all, the implosion will pass the hydrostatic equilibrium, and the kinetic energy in the implosion will get stored in hydrostatic potential, in excess of what the gravity can contain. So the hydrostatic potential will then initiate a rebound. It's just like dropping a tennis ball on the concrete -- gravitational potential is converted to kinetic energy -- on impact with the concrete, kinetic energy is converted to hydrostatic potential inside the tennis ball, and maybe some elastic potential in the rubber -- but the amount of potential is, by definition, in excess of what the gravity can contain -- so the tennis ball bounces, because the excess potential gets reconverted to kinetic energy.
Since we know that dusty plasmas don't bounce off of themselves, and rebound back out to their original dimensions, we know that there has to be an energy sink somewhere in there, to convert the hydrostatic potential into some other form of energy that is not repulsive.
There aren't very many choices here, but in the interest of brevity, I'll just go straight for the conclusion: the energy is converted to electrostatic potential.
When matter is compressed, eventually it gets to the point that electrons start getting expelled from the matter. This is because of the Pauli Exclusion Principle, which is manifested in the incompressibility of solids. Since the atoms are already in a closest packed arrangement, with the electron shells overlapping, a further reduction in volume would force multiple electrons to be in the same place at the same time, and at the same energy level, which they don't like. So electrons are expelled, and then the Coulomb force between +ions resists the compression.
The same is true of plasma. Just to get the overview, we can neglect the equations of state, and just say that once you compress plasma down to a certain density, any further compression will expel electrons, and the Coulomb force will prevent further compression. Well, we certainly have the force for this kind of compression in an imploding dusty plasma of stellar proportions, so we can expect this to happen.
So let's consider that our dusty plasma has collapsed into something the size of the Sun, and we know that it has exceeded the hydrostatic equilibrium, and is about to rebound back out. All of the matter would be under the same pressure, except for the fact that gravity -- the weakest of all of the forces present -- has an interesting property: it is purely attractive. So it adds its own force to the mix. The significance is that it will make sure that the center of the ball has the greatest pressure. As a consequence, the core will start expelling electrons first, leaving the core positively charged. Outside of the core, there will be a layer of excess electrons, attracted to the core, but not able to flow back in, because the core has become too compact for them.
Next we can realize that the charges in the negative layer will induce a positive charge in the plasma around the outside. This is because the plasma near the negative charge feels the force of the negative charge more than the positive charge in the core.
So now we have 3 layers of charge, in a positive-negative-positive configuration, starting in the core.
Interestingly, the force binding these layers together is way more powerful than gravity. Thus the matter is further compacted. Even more interesting is the fact that electric fields remove degrees of freedom from charged particles, since the electric force latches onto the particles, and pulls them into a closest packed arrangement, with no wiggle room. The significance of the removal of degrees of freedom is that it takes away all of the heat. Thus hydrostatic potential has been converted to electrostatic potential. If you eliminate the forced charging of those layers, the opposite charges would recombine, and the arc discharges would regenerate all of the heat. So the Conversation of Energy runs through the whole process. But when sufficiently compressed, the heat goes away, being replaced by electrostatic potential.
Also note that all of this put together constitutes a force feedback loop. The whole thing started with kinetic energy creating excess hydrostatic potential, that should have resulted in a rebound. But gravity concentrated the pressure in one spot (i.e., the core), and the forced charging started. Once the alternating layers of charge got set up, the electric force between them pulled them together even more. This increases the pressure, which increases the forced charging. It also increases the density of the gravity field, which increases the pressure, which increases the forced charging. And the charging makes the alternating layers of charge more robust. So it's a force feedback loop. And this is what preventing the hydrostatic rebound. The plasma was collapsing, but just when it thought that it was supposed to bounce back, something grabbed ahold of it and wouldn't let go, and the tighter it squeezed, the better its grip. That's the action of that force feedback loop.
And yes, there is a lot more potential in my model than in the standard model -- I start out with 1043 J from the adiabatic compression. Then I add in the kinetic energy from the implosion itself. And I don't let any of the energy radiate away, so every bit of it is preserved.