Asteroid 2003 EH

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.

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JohnMT
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Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by JohnMT » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:04 am

Ref:

Image

Why isn't this object undergoing an electrical discharge, particularly due to its elliptical orbit?

See also:

http://www.iop.org/EJ/article/1538-3881 ... c3f04b1abe

where the author concludes "that object 2003 EH is an intermittently active comet"

How could this be?
Is the object a comet or not?

Comments welcome.

earls
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by earls » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:41 am

I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at...

If it's "intermittently active," then it is undergoing electrical discharge at some point... It's just that because of it's orbit, the comet is generally neutral in regards to its surroundings. Only at certain points during its orbit does it undergo electrical discharge because of the charge imbalance. This is similar to all comets, when a comet returns to the outer reaches of the solar system, it no longer has a "tail."

JohnMT
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by JohnMT » Fri Feb 27, 2009 11:21 am

Thanks for your reply.

The paper says that '2003 EH1 IS THE QUADRANTID SHOWER PARENT COMET'

Therefore could we suggest that 2003 EH is perhaps the largest surviving remnant of an earlier cometary break-up comprising the now Quadrantid shower (exploding capacitor analogy - having completely lost its insulation properties etc) and that during this splitting process, has also completely lost its charge and thus became a dormant object?

What I am saying here is that not all asteroidal objects on elliptical paths, for one reason or another, can display cometary behaviour especially if their mass is comparatively low.

However, if the object were say tens of kilometers in diameter (which 2003 EH is not), then such a charge might readily be acquired due to its large electrical profile and capacity for storing charge.

ie from TPOD archive - 'When Comets Break Apart'

"The puzzling absence of small (house-sized) comets may be explained in equally simple terms electrically. Such small objects would lose their charge before reaching the inner solar system. But a comet nucleus kilometers in diameter presents a much different electrical profile and its charge could not be dissipated so quickly."

So it would appear that there might be a size/mass limit for an asteroidal object to build up sufficient charge in order to display cometary behaviour.
That is basically my point.

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webolife
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by webolife » Fri Feb 27, 2009 12:35 pm

And a good point it is.
One of the [many] significant predictions of EU is that comets and asteroids are fundamentally the same objects under differing conditions of electrical stress. This is still under much confusion in the SM of comets. Comet Holmes "surprised astronomers" but not EU-ers. There are hundreds of thousands of tracked asteroids with orbits extending into or beyond the asteroid belt, and many more that haven't been yet taken notice of. With this vast cloud of asteroids the electrical environment of any one of them will be predictably chaotic and... "average". So mass may be a factor, but pretty much any change of conditions which exposes one of the objects to a greater electrical stress for an extended period of time could evoke cometary behavior. Stephen Smith, what do you think of this synopsis?
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MGmirkin
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by MGmirkin » Sun Mar 01, 2009 1:44 pm

Well, consider also that part of the theory of comet breakups is that the nucleus is under such stress that it cannot sufficiently bleed off charge and forms a coma. At some point if the electrical stress gets too high, it may fission (break up into smaller pieces). One assumes that is ostensibly to increase the surface area and reduce the volume of each piece, thus making it easier to bleed off charge and maintain some kind of equilibrium. If it's a remnant of a larger body and is only "intermittently active," would that fit with the notion of a breakup reducing volume and upping surface area, thus increasing the ability ot bleed off charge and reducing the likelihood of major flare-ups? Just a speculative thought.

(When Comets Break Apart)
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... comets.htm
The “puzzling” absence of small (house-sized) comets may be explained in equally simple terms electrically. Such small objects would readily lose their charge before reaching the inner solar system. But a comet nucleus kilometers in diameter presents a much different electrical profile and its charge could not be dissipated so quickly.
(The Explosive Demise of Comet Linear)
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/ ... linear.htm
A comet nucleus can be compared to the insulating material in a capacitor. As charge is exchanged from the comet’s surface to the solar wind, electrical energy is stored in the nucleus in the form of charge polarization. This can easily build up intense mechanical stress in the comet nucleus, which may be released catastrophically, as in a capacitor when its insulation suffers rapid breakdown. The comet will explode!
(Comet Schwassmann-Wachmann 3 Disintegrates)
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... reakup.htm
A capacitor, one of the most commonly used devices in electrical engineering, stores electrical charge between layers of insulating material. And that is what a comet moving through regions of different charge will do—it will store electric charge. A comet nucleus can be compared to the insulating material, the dielectric, in a capacitor. As charge is exchanged from the comet’s surface to the solar "wind" (actually an electrically active plasma), electrical energy is stored in the nucleus in the form of charge polarization. This can easily build up intense mechanical stress in the comet nucleus, which may be released catastrophically. And just as a capacitor can explode when its insulation suffers rapid breakdown, a comet can do precisely the same.
(Comet Schwassman-Wachmann 3 Disintegrates [2])
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... eakup2.htm
The most noticeable thing is that the comet fragments do not "light up" until they are a considerable distance from the comet nucleus. This is contrary to the argument that the cometary display is due to exposed ices sublimating in sunlight. We should then expect that the fragments would expose fresh ices and appear bright from the moment they leave the nucleus. In contrast, the electrical model expects the fragments to be at the same voltage as the parent nucleus, so that they will not begin to discharge and form their own cometary display until they leave the immediate electrical influence of the parent. In addition, the brightness of each fragment will vary as it moves in and out of the current filaments from the parent comet and other fragments. And it will fade as the charge on the fragment is dissipated.
Although it doesn't pertain specifically to comets, the note by Thornhill about electric stars seems applicable:

(Assembling the Solar System)
http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=7y7d3dn5
Electric stars are not nuclear furnaces! They shine because they remain embedded in the galactic power grid. The decay of the z-pinch exposes the newborn star to a new electrical environment. The critical factor in the star’s stability is the current density at its photosphere. If it is excessive, the star may electrically “fission” into two or more pieces in order to expose a greater surface area and reduce the current density to a manageable level.
My line of thought is that a similar process and result happens with comets / fragments, as noted in the opening of the post.

Just my 2c.

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
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"For every PhD there is an equal and opposite PhD." ~Gibson's law

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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by JohnMT » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:31 pm

Hi Michael,

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Unfortunately, most of what you posted I have read before and (with respect), still does not answer my question.

I think there is a crucial factor involved when attempting to resolve whether a small wayward asteroid such as 2003 EH might develop into a comet or not and that is its mass.

Its all very well to suggest that Asteroid 2003 EH may have inadvertantly in the past encountered a Birkeland filament, which gave this object cometary virtues etc, but it does not explain why the object PRESENTLY is not behaving as a comet.

Surely, even at its present distance, even a slight wisp of discharge phenomena should be detectable by now (as with the more remote Chiron), but the evidence is apparently to the contrary.

I don't think it is quite right to invoke straying Birkeland filaments here and there to explain unusual cometary behaviour as in the case of Comet Holmes sudden "brightening".

Any comet/asteroid approaching the Sun, especially from the distance of Jupiter, must surely undergo very serious chemical decomposition, especially at the atomic level, during its comparative gradual motion into increasing areas of more intense plasma (ie the so-called solar wind), so why not 2003 EH?

Are we perhaps being selective here?

Or, as I suggested earlier, is mass a decisive factor?

John

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Tzunamii
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by Tzunamii » Mon Mar 02, 2009 8:40 am

The past year or so We've read article after article concerning the lack of sunspots, and other unusual solar behavior, as well as strange cometary behavior (double tails, incredibly bright comas).

Wouldn't that imply a change in the suns electrical environment?

Or another way of posing the question, Wouldn't we expect comets to behave differently, if the electrical environment they inhabited were to change, and wouldn't changes in the behavior of the sun be indicative of such a change?

Is there data out there that could make a correlation between the two?

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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by StefanR » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:10 pm

JohnMT wrote:Its all very well to suggest that Asteroid 2003 EH may have inadvertantly in the past encountered a Birkeland filament, which gave this object cometary virtues etc, but it does not explain why the object PRESENTLY is not behaving as a comet.

Surely, even at its present distance, even a slight wisp of discharge phenomena should be detectable by now (as with the more remote Chiron), but the evidence is apparently to the contrary.

I don't think it is quite right to invoke straying Birkeland filaments here and there to explain unusual cometary behaviour as in the case of Comet Holmes sudden "brightening".

Any comet/asteroid approaching the Sun, especially from the distance of Jupiter, must surely undergo very serious chemical decomposition, especially at the atomic level, during its comparative gradual motion into increasing areas of more intense plasma (ie the so-called solar wind), so why not 2003 EH?
Maybe there is some more information you might find to be going into your direction of questioning in the Comet Holmes thread?
Recovered: Holmes gets very bright

especially at page 5 and 6
Page 5
Page 6

It's a little of a read and the lay-out is not nice (as it is recovered from TB-1), but the topic of asteroids/comets is there and also possible options for discharge delays are put forward (a resistive dust-layer?). Speculation of course. ;)
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by mnemeth1 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 6:22 pm

If the asteroid never leaves the solar system it will not aquire the negative electric charge required for cometary outbursts.

It looks like this asteroid stays relatively close to the inner solar system.

A space rock has to spend a significant amount of time outside the influence of the suns positive electrical field for it to become a real comet.

An elpitical path is only part of the requirement.

Plus its small, so as a body it will rapidly equalize its charge ending any outbursting that does occur rather quickly.

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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by webolife » Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:05 pm

mnemoth1,
What you just said ignores pretty much everything known about Comet Holmes.
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by MGmirkin » Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:55 am

JohnMT wrote:I think there is a crucial factor involved when attempting to resolve whether a small wayward asteroid such as 2003 EH might develop into a comet or not and that is its mass.

Its all very well to suggest that Asteroid 2003 EH may have inadvertently in the past encountered a Birkeland filament, which gave this object cometary virtues etc, but it does not explain why the object PRESENTLY is not behaving as a comet.

Surely, even at its present distance, even a slight wisp of discharge phenomena should be detectable by now (as with the more remote Chiron), but the evidence is apparently to the contrary.
Well, I don't have all the answers. Wish I did.

I didn't see anything noting where the asteroid is presently, nor its speed. However, looking at the initial animation, it appears the object never comes closer to the sun than appx Earth's orbit and doesn't go much further out than Jupiter's orbit. What is the typical eccentricity of a comet and how close do they generally come to the sun? It also looks like the body moves on a plan perpendicular to the sun's equatorial plane (or at least the plane where everything else orbits, more or less).

I finally managed to find an applet with its orbital information...

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=2003+EH1;orb=1

It still seems to be a pretty considerable distance from the sun and considerably below the plane everything else orbits on (and probably the plane where solar flares and CMEs get ejected, primarily?)... One wonders, then whether it would encounter as high a plasma density in that region so far below the equatorial plane? Just thinking out loud.

~Michael Gmirkin

P.S. Running it backward, it looks like September of '08 would have been its closest approach, though still past Earth's orbit.
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by mnemeth1 » Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:26 am

webolife wrote:mnemoth1,
What you just said ignores pretty much everything known about Comet Holmes.
Holmes is almost double the size of EH1.

EH1 does display some cometary properties as well so its not totally dead.

Holmes also for the most part remains dead.

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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by MGmirkin » Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:47 pm

MGmirkin wrote:Well, I don't have all the answers. Wish I did.

I didn't see anything noting where the asteroid is presently, nor its speed. However, looking at the initial animation, it appears the object never comes closer to the sun than appx Earth's orbit and doesn't go much further out than Jupiter's orbit. What is the typical eccentricity of a comet and how close do they generally come to the sun? It also looks like the body moves on a plan perpendicular to the sun's equatorial plane (or at least the plane where everything else orbits, more or less).

I finally managed to find an applet with its orbital information...

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=2003+EH1;orb=1

It still seems to be a pretty considerable distance from the sun and considerably below the plane everything else orbits on (and probably the plane where solar flares and CMEs get ejected, primarily?)... One wonders, then whether it would encounter as high a plasma density in that region so far below the equatorial plane? Just thinking out loud.

~Michael Gmirkin

P.S. Running it backward, it looks like September of '08 would have been its closest approach, though still past Earth's orbit.
However, as they say, the truth will out, eventually. So, Now that I sort of know where to look, it's possible to look up other objects. For instance 17p Holmes:

http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=17p;orb=1

It's orbital is a bit less perpendicular to the equatorial plane of the solar system (or at least where the other planets more-or-less orbit). However, it seems to indicate that it comes little or no closer than the orbit of Mars. However it does seem more elliptical in the orbital applet than the 2003 EH1 does. 2003 EH1 seems to be a more circular orbit.

Of course, when you run the Holmes comet backward and forward through time to October 24, 2007, it doesn't seem to be anywhere "special" in its orbit. IE, I don't think it was at perihelion. It was maybe a little after one of its closer approaches & passing through the equatorial plane (though that was around Feb/Mar 2007?)...

So, it seems like mechanism behind the exact timing of major flare-ups is still up in the air.

Though I can't find a quote at the moment, I recall Thornhill saying that it's nearly impossible to predict precisely when a comet will flare up due to electrical interactions (not knowing the precise charge on the comet or the conditions in the varying plasma regions it's passing through, in terms of charge density, etc.). But sometime at or after closest approach seems to be the "most likely" time to see activity. Don't recall where I read the quote. I thought it was in an article on Holoscience, but seem to be unable to track it down.

Anyway, I do agree that nailing down the reasons that say "Holmes 17p flared but 2003 EH1 didn't flare" will inevitably help to understand the mechanism, timing, circumstances, etc. The answer may not be overly "simple" though. But it's questions like these that do eventually (in an ideal world) lead to better answers.

As another example, comet Lulin ([url-http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?ID=dK07N030;orb=1]Comet C/2007 N3[/url]; not to be confused with 145523 Lulin [2006 EM67]) seems to be on a far more eccentric orbit (more typical of what the EU seems to say would be the typical "comet" case)...

http://www.space.com/spacewatch/090206- ... lulin.html
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?ID=dK07N030;orb=1

Or there's Halley's Comet (1P/Halley)

Comet Encke seems to vacillate between just inside Jupiter's orbit and just inside Mercury's orbit, but again seem close to the equatorial plane and more elliptical than circular.

Comet Hale-Bopp is extremely elliptical, spending a lot of time in the far outer reaches...

Comet McNaught (C/2006 P1) is also an extremely elliptical outer reaches comet.

It's seeming like the elliptical orbit plays a bit role in the "major comets?" Maybe it's just me. What are some of the other major comets? LINEAR (moderately eccentric, but still between Earth and Jupiter)? Shoemaker-Levy 9 (D/1993 F2; in various pieces), NEAT (C/2002 V1, C/2001 Q4; both seem designated "NEAT," go figure!), Schwassmann-Wachmann, Biela, Borrelly, Hyakutake (another long-period comet), etc.

There seems to be something of a range of eccentricities & perihelion / aphelion locations. One wonders if it's possible to get a list of the comets with the highest known magnitude and match them up on NASA's orrery to see if there's a correlation with eccentricity and/or inner solar system vs. "outer limits" objects.

Perhaps the "Great Comets"?

Apparently Halley, Biela, Hyakutake, Hale-Bopp and McNaught all make the list of "great comets"...

Just something for us all to chew on, I guess.

If nothing else: http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi seems to be a good spot for getting orbital data on small bodies like asteroids / comets, as long as you know the designation (or occasionally the name if it's well-known enough)...

~Michael Gmirkin
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webolife
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by webolife » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:16 pm

Here's another ?? to chew on. Asteroid 2003EH may come mighty close to the clan of the Trojans in its outer reach. I wonder if there is any significant interaction with those planetoids that would affect its behavior?
Last edited by webolife on Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Asteroid 2003 EH

Post by MGmirkin » Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:17 pm

mnemeth1 wrote:Holmes is almost double the size of EH1.

EH1 does display some cometary properties as well so its not totally dead.

Holmes also for the most part remains dead.
Umm, when we say bigger, do we mean the nucleus or the coma? Just wondering...

Regards,
~Michael Gmirkin
"The purpose of science is to investigate the unexplained, not to explain the uninvestigated." ~Dr. Stephen Rorke
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