The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.

Moderators: MGmirkin, bboyer

Re: Arc welding and electric erosion on Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:14 am

This link covers the experiments, done by JPL, Which provide the most likely mechanism for the grooves
mentioned in my previous post..

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2013-200

In outside discussions about these dry ice experiments details have been offered to further explain the
dynamics of CO2 pucks in the low gravity conditions of Mars... These JPL experiments need to be repeated
under varied conditions to get better photographs of the features which are shown in the images below.
Craters formed by spinning CO2 gas and scalloped floors in grooves are just two that stand out as scientific
evidence for "CO2 puck" causation. Another is the disregard for elevated relief,, as these pucks used in
experiments were seen to accelerate after being pushed, then slowing, on a 6 degree slope.. On steeper
slopes they blasted right through raised features with greater demonstration of dynamics.

http://para-az.com/co2-slabs/ridge-dishes.jpg

http://para-az.com/co2-slabs/d-ice-scallopes.jpg

http://para-az.com/co2-slabs/co2-craters.jpg

Image

The block may spend a fair amount of time exposed at the ridge before a piece heads down the slope,
leaving real large dished areas at the ridge... At the bottom and at points where it's movement slows,
it may leave a larger dished out area than the groove's width..
The patterns of deposits around the grooves, in certain location, look very symetrical as though no
atmospheric condition disturbed the material as it settled.

See this image and those from Russel Crater. d...z

http://para-az.com/co2-slabs/pia17261-s45.jpg

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

CO2 blocks make groove erosion features

Unread postby dahlenaz » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:02 pm

This is part of the image of Russel mentioned above. Notice, along the right side of the second
groove from the right, the craters which are outside the groove.. These occur in the same
proximity or orientation as those along the stationary block in the JPL experiment..

This may indicate that these blocks, pucks or sleds moved at varying speeds across the surface. d...z

Image

Larger image; http://para-az.com/co2-slabs/co2-craters-russel.jpg

Original Image; http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/figures/PIA17260_fig1.jpg

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: Arc welding and electric erosion on Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:47 pm

Here is a link to an explanation of phase diagram like the one below used to show CO2
behavior under varied conditions on Mars.

http://stevengoddard.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/understanding-phase-diagrams/

Image

larger version: http://para-az.com/co2-slabs/phase-chart2-co2.jpg

Also see the full chart in the same directory, it includes an h2O chart. d...z

Thanks Jim!
...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

CO2 Scars on Planet Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:01 pm

This Image comparison released in 2011 should settle any doubt of the seasonal nature of
the CO2-grooves in Russel crater as well as cancel out any further speculation about electrical
cause. We see clearly that these features form on mid-slope and apparantly where a
sub-terranian pre-disposition of some form may be present.

Image

You can see in the image a pathway which extends above the termination point in
the formation of the previous year which in the following year has fully become exposed
as a complex of troughs. d...z

The full size original article and image is here:
http://www.uahirise.org/ESP_021496_1255

http://www.uahirise.org/images/2010/details/cut/ESP_021496_1255_cut.jpg

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:41 am

This image zooms in on a specific area of interest and points to details which
may call for a fresh evaluation of mechanisms involved in formation of these troughs.

Read the notes added to the larger image.
http://para-az.com/co2-slabs/aqco2-fric-avlnch-txs85.jpg
But, i would have to ask if CO2 can accumulate as sub-surface veins or
like aquafers and then explode in a vein-wise erruption. d...z



Image

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby Bomb20 » Mon Sep 02, 2013 5:53 am

I think it is not necessary to mourn about the loss of a potential „electric explanation“ for some features on Mars, especially the linear gullies. I think it is positive that this group of NASA researchers did really consider natural conditions on Mars and did not simply transfer observations from Earth to Mars as 1:1 ratio (as often done in the past with water, lava etc.). The rich appearance of dry ice on Mars must influence its surface in some way.

Now I start to wonder if Martian storms could also blow melted blocks of dry ice over “flat ground” without any slopes. Maybe a stupid idea but gravitation on Mars seems to play a very little role in afore mentioned and pictured NASA hypothesis but the described “hovercraft effect” plays a very big role. Furthermore I wonder if some of the “lava tubes” at the slopes of “volcanos” can be explained in the same manner. However, I doubt that dry ice sledges can make hard 90° turns or vertical ridings over slopes of the so-called volcanos.
Anyway. No doubt that more experiments have to follow.
User avatar
Bomb20
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: Germany

Self-Scarring Planets and other bodies

Unread postby dahlenaz » Sun Sep 22, 2013 8:31 am

The following post was introduced at the beginning of this month in the hope of input in another forum,
to date receiving no comments yet. So, it has been posted here to entice your responses for better or
worse, refinement or rejection. I've become familiar with the latter but the latest blip that may have
brought you here from the t-bolts update, ;

"The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars"
"One of the principles of the Electric Universe is that planetary surfaces were shaped by past electrical conditions."


might reveal the broadening of initial notions introduced in association with the mythic record
and with emphasis on interplanetary scarring. d...z

Sept 1, 2013, (private forum)
We know with a relatively high level of certianty that our planet is involved in two
levels of lightning or electrical activity,,, one we can reproduce on a daily basis
in the dry environment of our homes and similar conditions where strong electrical
exchange can be effected when the potential develops. In nature, there is a
similar potential which develops due to atmospheric activity,, such as wind blown
across an isolated span of wire, imparting a state of charge in them that creates
a dangerous condition if touched.. Similar conditions reqire static dischargers on
aircraft and the like.

Another level of discharge is not so easily experienced and involves interaction
between the electrical evironment of space and our atmosphere,, seen as those
long-dismissed upper atmospheric light anomolies. These boundary-crossing events
are often associated with large storms. Some people might suggest that all storm
electricity has a boundary-crossing connection,, but that may be a stretch.
Our atmosphere does much to isolate us from the direct affect of those larger
events but what if we had a smaller gap between the ionospheric boundary
and the planet's surface, is this accomplished in part during those huge
storms which produce extreme lightning? The scars of these events could be
consider as a form of self scarring which involves ONLY THE PLANET AND ITS
SURROUNDING ENVIORNMENT, in contrast to what might occur if two
planetary bodies were to come into close proximity.

On a daily basis our planet experiences self-scarring so why not other bodies
that are within the same electrical environment of the sun but have differing
degrees of atmospheric separation from the ionospheric boundary, or could
it be called its double layer? Do planets with thin atmospheres also have
an ionospheric boundary? If so, then their surface features need not be
regarded entirely [added today for clarification] as a remnant of some distant event, yet
rather as ongoing modification of the surface in self-scarring fashion.

The thunderbolts project has focused on the type of scarring which would
be classified as inter-planetary discharges but these events may not
account for as many features as are visibly present today. We should
expect some level of scarring from the huge dust storms on Mars in the
form of common electrical discharge patterns, including craters. We should
also consider the scarring of comets as a form of self-scarring. From this we
can differentiate those scars from those formed by planetary interactions.

Experiments at various levels of electrical potential have given evidence
that calls for considration of various types of planetary electrical activity and
the scarring which results. Craters can be formed without a hint of visible
electrical activity,, just the displacement of material in very specific patterns.
Also, material can be removed en-mass without a hint of visible electrical
activity. The features formed in these experiments match planetary features
in great detail with many residual processes to lend further comparison.

As hinted to years ago with Transient Lunar Phenomona, so to with
activity and features on Mars and elsewhere,, there are self-scarring
processes which can be differentiated from the "proposed" inter-planetary
discharges by the freshness of their signitures.

If the only electrical experiments which get press-time are the high energy
ones which blast at material with little subtilty, then we may be missing
a vast array of conditions which leave signitures of more recent activity
that speaks of the self-scarring nature behind planetary sculpting... d...z

http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/electro-lifting.html

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby Bomb20 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:18 am

Your suggestion of a broadened approach to self-scarring sounds sound to me. If the Universe is electric in nature then it makes sense to consider more than mainly big self-scarring inter-planetary processes of the past (maybe repeating itself one day in a distant or near future). The ongoing daily electrical processes could well be responsible for some of the younger or youngest features on Mars. The current approach is strongly focussed on past and history. A broader approach could result in a better awareness of more little and fine but still running activities which modify the surfaces of planets. I hope others will react to your request for feedback, maybe with detailed ideas and suggestions.
User avatar
Bomb20
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: Germany

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:09 pm

Bomb20 wrote:Your suggestion of a broadened approach to self-scarring sounds sound to me. If the Universe is electric in nature then it makes sense to consider more than mainly big self-scarring inter-planetary processes of the past (maybe repeating itself one day in a distant or near future). The ongoing daily electrical processes could well be responsible for some of the younger or youngest features on Mars. The current approach is strongly focussed on past and history. A broader approach could result in a better awareness of more little and fine but still running activities which modify the surfaces of planets. I hope others will react to your request for feedback, maybe with detailed ideas and suggestions.


I am encouraged to hear your input, especially the ongoing possibilities, but we should also consider
recent historical evidence to broaden our awareness of present-day possibilities.

In discussions withT-bolts primaries i have gained the impression that all the mythical content is
based on events which did not repeat themselves beyond the myth-making period of catastrophic
upheaval. I have my doubts that this can withstand scrutiny. How could culture-guiding myths
retain followers if some contemporary events did not occur which helped
to solidify the age-old beliefs for the new generations?

We in our time see many terrestrial events which are often associated with only terrestrial process
and most people pay little attention to non-terrestrial factors.
If our near neighboring planets once moved in close proximity, with catastrophic consequences,
then would not their be a period of slow departure from those interactive proximities?
Specifically, venus, mars and our moon need to be considered for the ongoing effects based on
historical events going back as far as we care to go... I often use an online Orrery, (orbital plotter)
to see where planets were during modern weather events,, see this link for where that led.
http://para-az.com/The_Hypersensitive_S ... stem_d.pdf
This paper was primarily looking at hurricanes, but many other terrestrial events came into focus
for thier timing to orbital reationships, a few being earthquakes, volcanic erruptions, oddly located
tornados and on the sun solar outbursts. I didn't dig into those as much as hurricanes but while
using the orrery i rolled it back to about 4000bc to a time when "all" the planets were in line on the
same side of the sun and then tried to calulate when that repeated itself. It was during this time that
i suggested repeatedly that in the many years that followed that alignment there must have been events
which the human population associated with the timing of celestial bodies. I've heard that some military
planners were all over the timing of lunar and solar eclipses, so i dug deeper and remained attentive
to present=day events,, continually suggesting the need to backtrack and also consider what else might fall
into this pattern. In 2001 a notable event expanded the pattern to include what might happen on other planets.
It was then that a global dust storm on Mars drew much attention and the timing could not have been more
revealing it may have turned some heads and minds.
That dust storm sealed the deal for ongoing avtivity for there was earth-based traces which if it occured
in times passed could have coaxed our ancestors into ongoing adherance to myths and its useful to us to
firm up the need for historical reconstruction..
Of course some of our ancestors came to their senses and ceased from the fear and worship
of celestial bodies as gods but that took more years than could be expected if initial catastrophic event were
the end of the show and nothing further occurred with influence upon myth-sustaining.

Venus, Mars and our moon are still to be watched
for their interaction with us in our Hypersensitive Solar System.

Experiments conducted in recent years give us a hint to what might cauase expansion or modification
of some features on Mars, it may be only a direct result of the global dust storms and the electrical
potential of that cloud of dust,,, but it may be even more than that, in the form of near-body interactions,
even to include Earth and its tail. The experiments showed that a single discharge at a raised object
on a charged surface draws charge from the surrounding area and leaves behind coronal patterns
in the loose material of the surface. Those coronal patterns reflect the geometry of the object which
which facilitated the discharge. At an axial feature the discharge produces perpendicular features
along the axial feature. For a circular object the coronal patterns leaves radial features,,, even a moat of
excavated material...
At Vales Marinaris, Hebes canyon, and Olympus mons we see evidence which fits into contemporary
modification of features, possibly associated with the global dust storms triggered by Earths tail as it
swept past Mars in the closest passage of 400 years...
There is much to consider with reference to ongoing alterations and the grand causes, we just need to
stay focused on what can be forwarded by experiments,,, so that some day we can dig-in to those features
for added factoring evidence... d...z

http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/electro-lifting.html

http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/hebes-grooves.html

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby Bomb20 » Tue Oct 01, 2013 6:26 am

I think you are right with an approach which is connecting the search for ongoing possibilities of electric discharges under consideration of more recent historical evidence. However, it will last some time (days or even weeks) before I can come up with something (hopefully) useful because I am neither an electro engineer nor a planet scientist and I am still struggling to read most of the basic information about the Electric Universe and to view related pictures from Mars etc pp. I bookmarked NASA and ESA homepages but have not enough time to search for most interesting phenomena. I will also have a longer look at your PDF´s and video clips with the experiments (It sounds like some birds are already discussing your research work in the background?).

Therefore I can only present some more unspecific first remarks for the start if nobody else is able or willing to make more detailed remarks right now.

In discussions withT-bolts primaries i have gained the impression that all the mythical content is
based on events which did not repeat themselves beyond the myth-making period of catastrophic
upheaval. I have my doubts that this can withstand scrutiny. How could culture-guiding myths
retain followers if some contemporary events did not occur which helped
to solidify the age-old beliefs for the new generations?


When I had a look at some PDF of Jno Cook I got the impression that he listed a lot more recent catastrophes, also some which happened long after the original myth-making period and lasted until the early Middle ages. I could imagine a pattern or series of incidents after the end of the original myth-creating period but with declining magnitude like far echoes of the original catastrophes, enough to keep the human beings in a steady but decreasing fear and terror.
Resulting task: A diligent routine piece of work would be required to tie all major (also younger and current) catastrophes to certain constellations of planets and other “suspicious” cosmic events. I think it is that what you had in mind already. A well-organised combined effort would be helpful here because a single person can hardly cope with this task.

The main problem is the ongoing believe that Earth is an isolated system. Therefore the focus of scientists is directed on Earth without proper consideration of the role of our sun system.
If a planet comes very deep into the magnetotail (obviously a misleading or one-sided term) of another planet then one can probably expect more catastrophic events than in normal times.
I will have a closer look at your work and other sources before I address and comment some points in detail.
User avatar
Bomb20
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: Germany

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Tue Oct 01, 2013 11:04 am

Your interest may open new pathways for discovery. i have been just a backyard experimenter
with no formal background to prop up my impressions, just some interesting details which
emerged from research and more than amazing results from experiments which point to sculpting
processes which remove great volumes of material without a traveling arc, just exploitation
of the electrical properties of the material and massive lifting in short order, like coronal
fingers grasping at the material. Where craters formed, the fingers leave radial grooves
down the walls. This is probably just one the means by which electrical sculpting occurs and
it all probably depends on how much charge there is to drive the exchange and if it can be
sustained, but i am just guessing since most of my experiments involved electrostatic surface
charge of CRT's or driven by devices such as an ionizer. and a fly-back setup, which
are not fully understood for their working.
In my fly-back experiments i observed that mass-lifting takes place when an arc can't be
established,, the electromagnetic stresses going to work on large amounts of material. When
an arc established itself the lifting ceased and smaller amounts of material were displaced.
There is almost ceartianly numerous electrical process which need to be considered. d...z

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby Bomb20 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 3:16 am

I will give you my first impression because I don´t want to make you wait too long.

The Thunderbolts are always underlining the importance of arcs for the sculpturing of Mars. IMHO it is clear that the whole scenario with the encounter of another or other bodies in space is a process with discharges in different modes. After the sculpturing in the (mainly) arc mode the other sky body will finally move away, the many arc mode discharges finally cease but some discharges in glow mode and dark mode are still going on until they find an end as well. This is my admittedly primitive understanding. It means that already immediately after the huge sculpturing work of the arcs a first re-shaping of still loose material on the surface happened. Therefore I find it very interesting that mass-lifting occurs in your experiments if no arc can be established.

Today we have not only dust devils with dark mode discharges on Mars. I read huge thunderbolts were observed on Mars or at least certain phenomena interpreted as lightning. (And I wonder what the huge global dust storms are hiding to our view.) So, we have still mass-lifting by dark mode winds and maybe (?) even a little ongoing sculpturing by glow mode and arc mode discharges.

To your first link to your website:
There I have a little problem with the comparison of your picture(s) with the Thunderbolts TPOD picture displayed there. I agree that the landscape on TPOD is not necessarily a result of a traveling arc discharge but I am a bit missing the point which you are trying to make there in reference of your own research. You did not explain in detail what is really pictured by the Thunderbolts or I missed it.

The experiments results described on this page at your website are instructive and I would wish they could be repeated on a bigger scale with other technological and financial means and “playing” with more input variations and different Mars-like materials. I know this wish is often staying a dream because of simple financial limitations but with a bigger set one could probably also get a better idea about the relation between the “coronal fingers” and voltage etc. After a short look at your work I can share your idea that there are numerous electrical processes at work in the shaping and re-shaping of planetary and other surfaces of sky bodies.

To the second link to your website:
IMHO the first (impressive) picture from Mars displays some results of arc discharges in the far background but you are especially pointing to the material which was sinking down. It looks “wet” to me and you wrote that electrical processes could have “undermined” the material there but I wonder about the more horizontal features across the slope and some patterns around the “tongue” (it is hard to see for me; Are they Lichtenberg figures?) in the middle. Could they indicate electric discharges of lower intensity as well?

I am still hoping that any other knowledgeable experimenter will join the discussion.
User avatar
Bomb20
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Sun Sep 01, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: Germany

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:01 am

Bomb20 wrote:I will give you my first impression because I don´t want to make you wait too long.

The Thunderbolts are always underlining the importance of arcs for the sculpturing of Mars. IMHO it is clear that the whole scenario with the encounter of another or other bodies in space is a process with discharges in different modes. After the sculpturing in the (mainly) arc mode the other sky body will finally move away, the many arc mode discharges finally cease but some discharges in glow mode and dark mode are still going on until they find an end as well. This is my admittedly primitive understanding. It means that already immediately after the huge sculpturing work of the arcs a first re-shaping of still loose material on the surface happened. Therefore I find it very interesting that mass-lifting occurs in your experiments if no arc can be established.



As you roll this all over in you mind, don't forget that the bodies were probably not wandering strangers, but arethought to have been in the grip of some larger axial orientation.. Aside from that Wal Thornhil states, in
reference to asteroid collision threats, the the two approaching bodies would sense each other electrically
long before they got into the proximity of collision. I draw upon this when looking at my experiments which show
that electric wind [a darkmode discharge- (according to Wal)] always led the way in the sculpting process.
Arcs occurred but usually after material was already pealed away, at least partly. That was how the mass-lifting
occurred as well; a lot of invisible forces moving the loose surface material around and then toward the end
of the pass, and suddenly, large chunks of material left the surface,, then some small visible ares appeared
followed buy several large ones, making the craters at the right side of the picture.
You can see many similar features in the image described at the TPOD link.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2012/11/16/electric-sculpting/
I don't know much about that image or location other than then what is writen in the article..
That article came out around the same time as i was explaining these experiments to
a labgroup privately... The page was a supplement to that discussion so i need to fill in some blanks at this stage.

Image

The comparison image at the link below was to point out the, with a zoomed image, the ridges coming
off the walls of the trench..
http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/sbs-utoppln-tbacktrnch-s85p.jpg
The experiment effort had the specific purpose of attempting to replicate features that might be comparable
to the dendritic ridge systems seem around Mars in various places.
That was what the lab group was tasked to address and both of those links were being shown to them
as results from two different experiments which both crated alcoves with adjacent ridges descending into
the trench or valley. Sad to say, my results didn;t win any attention or sway the minds of those followers.



The second link you mention, points to Hebes cut and there you can see a scorched central ridge with
perpendicular features occuring at right angle to the ridge.
http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/hebes-grooves.html
At the canyon perimeter you see neatly spaced alcoves and ridges descending towward the central ridge..
The experiments with an axial discharge path, surrounded my loose material, gave the same features
as a discharge was taken from the simulated ridge placed on the CRT screen. Repeated discharges
further enlarged the excavated material showed that coronal streamers in one form of discharge may
have their excavating twin brother during the diacharge of a surface through an elevated point...

I must emphasize that these are just impressions with little more than thin understanding of the dynamics
of large scale electrical interactions... These were just experiments conducted to offer a low scale point
of reference for other to use in larger evaluations.. I did not intend to launch new avenues for consideration
but that possibility sure seems to be lurking in the background.. I can only hope someone can stitch the
details together and keep us from going astray with half-baked notions... d...z

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby dahlenaz » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:19 pm

This image may help show the dramatic extent to which coronal excavation demonstrated its
potential. I overlooked this image when i was placing images for inspection.
The metal ridge-simulator was removed for this shot.

Image

http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/ridge-corona13255-s75c.jpg

I've also added this other image which i found which shows nicely
some of the features made during mass-electro-lifting. Notice the rubble
field early in the pass and small craters in the remnant floor as well as
the bead left behind in a crater at the end of the pass. Hanging remnants
can also be seen at the lower right of the mass-lifting area. d...z

Image

http://para-az.com/eltricu-lbgrp/t-back-trnch13241-s75c.jpg

...
User avatar
dahlenaz
 
Posts: 465
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:58 am
Location: SD Arizona

Re: The Lightning-Scarred Planet Mars

Unread postby GaryN » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:05 am

Martian scars
http://cdn.physorg.com/newman/gfx/news/ ... nscars.jpg
No other canyon on Mars has a similar feature and its origin is not entirely clear. Its layers include volcanic materials – just like in the main canyon walls – but also wind-blow dust and lake sediments that were laid down over time.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-10-martian-scars.html#jCp
How long can they avoid the obvious truth for?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller
User avatar
GaryN
 
Posts: 2645
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:18 pm
Location: Sooke, BC, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Electric Universe - Planetary Science

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest