The case for antediluvian telepathy

[tholden]

How so?

I post some of this stuff for the benefit of those who get something out of it. If I see any evidence of anyone else having spent any real time studying these topics and wanting to debate some part of it I'll be happy to oblige.

[Grey Cloud]

How so?

I post some of this stuff for the benefit of those who get something out of it. If I see any evidence of anyone else having spent any real time studying these topics and wanting to debate some part of it I'll be happy to oblige.

Okay then, how about the Iliad and the voices in the heads? You ever 'spent any real time studying' the book?

From the passage posted by StefanR:

Theurgy constitutes a special type of Dialectical Interchange. In all forms of Perennialist Dialectic, prepared participants enter into shared mystical experiences in which they gain union with Higher Forces, discovering Transcendent Ideas and Forms.
Theurgy consists of ritualized, performatory 1 procedures bringing about the transmutation of the Soul and its temporary return to the Eternal World. The initiate, through performing these ceremonies 2, achieves ascent from the conditions of worldly existence and reunion with the Divine One.

That is derived from Egyptian 'magic', and, I would suggest, what religion and ritual was originally - a method of altering one's state of consciousness. It is basically what the Mysteries were about and forms the major thread of the Rig Veda.

All contemporary formal religions use rituals as sorcery: attempting to influence or coerce a pretended deity through concocted rites and ceremonies.

That is idolatry.
In the first example the focus and goal is the elevation of the individual (and by extention, the Universe itself). In the second, the focus is the idol/object and the goal is material benefit for the individual, whether here or in some supposed Paradise.

And, finally, in the last movement of the hymn we have the clear and unmistakable indication of theTruth-consciousness as the goal of the sacrifice, the object of the Soma-offering, the culmination of the work of the Ashwins, Indra and the All-gods in the vitality and in the mind. For these are the three Riks devoted to Saraswati, the divine Word, who represents the stream of inspiration that descends from the Truth-consciousness, and thus limpidly runs their sense:
"May purifying Saraswati with all the plenitude of her forms of plenty, rich in substance by the thought, desire our sacrifice".
"She, the impeller to happy truths, the awakener inconsciousness to right mentalisings, Saraswati, upholds the sacrifice".
"Saraswati by the perception awakens in consciousness the great flood (the vast movement of the Ritam) and illumines
entirely all the thoughts."

Secret of the Vedas, Sri Aurobindo. P90.
Saraswati is, I would hazard, the Athene of the Iliad and the Lady Philosophy and Sophia of the Neoplatonists. The Truth-consciousness mentioned in the passage would be, by my estimation, Zeus as Universal Mind.

Voices in the head? Jaynes was talking through his arse.

[mague]

All contemporary formal religions use rituals as sorcery: attempting to influence or coerce a pretended deity through concocted rites and ceremonies.

That is idolatry.
In the first example the focus and goal is the elevation of the individual (and by extention, the Universe itself). In the second, the focus is the idol/object and the goal is material benefit for the individual, whether here or in some supposed Paradise.

And, finally, in the last movement of the hymn we have the clear and unmistakable indication of theTruth-consciousness as the goal of the sacrifice, the object of the Soma-offering, the culmination of the work of the Ashwins, Indra and the All-gods in the vitality and in the mind. For these are the three Riks devoted to Saraswati, the divine Word, who represents the stream of inspiration that descends from the Truth-consciousness, and thus limpidly runs their sense:
"May purifying Saraswati with all the plenitude of her forms of plenty, rich in substance by the thought, desire our sacrifice".
"She, the impeller to happy truths, the awakener inconsciousness to right mentalisings, Saraswati, upholds the sacrifice".
"Saraswati by the perception awakens in consciousness the great flood (the vast movement of the Ritam) and illumines
entirely all the thoughts."

Secret of the Vedas, Sri Aurobindo. P90.
Saraswati is, I would hazard, the Athene of the Iliad and the Lady Philosophy and Sophia of the Neoplatonists. The Truth-consciousness mentioned in the passage would be, by my estimation, Zeus as Universal Mind.

Voices in the head? Jaynes was talking through his arse.

Hi,

its a bit more complicated Why do they offer Soma ? That sounds like a deal, doesnt it ? Why do humans trade Soma with spirits ? *hint*hint*

In that regard there are no false deities. They all trade Soma with spirits. Satanists do it just like the not-so-evil Soma traders. The difference is how they obtain the Soma. Some steal it from others, and some give from what they got. To some you give the small finger and they take the whole body, and others are happy with the small offering. Those who lost the whole body actually may hear voices in their head. The story is the same. Its Soma trading to gain something.

If Soma is anything worth to them, then we may assume that there are a lot of spirits out there. From all over the galaxy, because Soma is rare. So far we know exactly one planet with Soma

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Mague,
According to Sri Aurobindo:

Indra in the psychological interpretation of the hymns represents, as we shall see, Mind-Power. The word for the sense-faculties, indriya, is derived from his name. His special realm is Swar, a word which means sun or luminous, being akin to sura and surya, the sun, and is used to indicate the third of the Vedic vyahrtis and the third of the Vedic worlds corresponding to the principle of the pure or unobscured Mind. Surya represents the illumination of the Ritam rising upon the mind; Swaris that plane of mental consciousness which directly receives the illumination. Vayu on the other hand is always associated with the Prana or Life-Energy which contributes to the system all the ensemble of those nervous activities that in man are the support of the mental energies governed by Indra. Their combination constitutes the normal mentality of man. These two gods are invited in the hymn to come and partake together of the Soma-wine. This wine of Soma represents, as we have abundant proof in the Veda and especially in the ninth book, a collection of more than a hundred hymns addressed to the deity Soma, the intoxication of the Ananda, the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. If we accept these interpretations, we can easily translate the hymn into its psychological significance. The Secret of the Veda pp73-74.

I don't see it as trading but as exchanging; or as tranforming, i.e. alchemy. It's done to re-gain rather than gain.

Perhaps it is the intent of the sacrificer rather than what is sacrificed that is key? In any case, Agni is involved in the first step (both in alchemy and in the Rig).

The negative spirits or entities you refer to are called Dasyus in the Vedic. I've not yet had chance to contemplate upon them properly but I would think that they are connected the maya, illusion etc. They make up the veil, curtain, barrier which has to be penetrated. That's more or less just my first impressions so I'm open to offers.

[mague]

These two gods are invited in the hymn to come and partake together of the Soma-wine. This wine of Soma represents, [...], the intoxication of the Ananda, the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth.

I don't see it as trading but as exchanging; or as tranforming, i.e. alchemy. It's done to re-gain rather than gain.

Perhaps it is the intent of the sacrificer rather than what is sacrificed that is key? In any case, Agni is involved in the first step (both in alchemy and in the Rig).

The negative spirits or entities you refer to are called Dasyus in the Vedic. I've not yet had chance to contemplate upon them properly but I would think that they are connected the maya, illusion etc. They make up the veil, curtain, barrier which has to be penetrated. That's more or less just my first impressions so I'm open to offers.

Hi,

maybe i am getting it all wrong due to multiple translations from sanscrit to english to my language...

Ananda usually means "absence of misfortune". Buddhas brother was called Ananda for example. Why would i want to intoxicate the state of "absence of missfortune" ? With soma ?

In my translation this roughly is a hunger for the radiation of living bio mass

Dasyus is a name, which the first Aryan settlers of India gave to the aborigines of the country. The term Dasyus can often be found in the Rig Veda. In the Rig Veda, the Dasyus are often described as enemies to be slain.

Dasyus are often referred as demons of different orders, or goblins in the Rig Veda. But, they are actually the barbarous aboriginal tribes of India. But the term Dasyus is used in the Aitareya Brahamana and in the Mahabharata for men and not for demons.

Dasyus are also defined as a class of superhuman beings, who are maliciously disposed both to gods and men and are overcome by Lord Indra and Agni in particular. The word Dasyus is a designation of hostile, wicked, or barbarous men. The term Dasyu simply means enemy.

Sounds quite a bit like european settlers in Amerika or european colonists in Africa or british people in Australia or romans in germania and on the british isle. Like Picts or so... Not ?

The question may be what makes those Aryans, colonists and settlers to good for this planet ? While all species are fine with the cycles of life and dead a few want it to be different. They want it better then god/the universe created it.

In the shaman tradition life is one of the most holy things in this universe. Its a gift to be alive on this planet for a while and any species and any second of the existance is a precious gift. It is a godly honor to be allowed to incarnate here.
But some are not allowed to incarnate here or some have been here and dont want to leave although already dead and bodyless spirits. Those make contact to humans, offer them "supernatural" favors for soma. For example the dimmension of time is not much of a problem for them. Its easy for them to give hints about future events. Some of them have an endless hunger and help humans to build religions or empires. The only reason for such vast hirarchies is to farm soma big time. The most greedy ones are what we imagine as pure daemon. They really take over the human, steal their incarnation. In that regard our current civilisation exists only to feed Moloch.
Others of them are rather hramless. Like a straying cat that is happy if you give her some food once in a while. But even those offer small favors.

They all do this, because they cant reconnect to universal harmony. In the end its just another trauma. The greedy ones are the tough cases, the "hungry cat" are those who are close to reconnection. They need some soma to keep on regenerating towards harmony, to overcome their trauma.

Some of the human mages are as guilty as possible too. Those have used soma as bait and slaved those spirits to create golem or gain power. Once they die they turn into the same lost souls or worse.

Since i read here i sometimes think is similar how the van Allen belt is catching radiation. A similar (or the same) belt seems to catch spirits that are not completely in harmony. Similar to the biblical purgatory. I am not sure... it might even catch spirits from somewhere out there. It might also be that many of them are remains of an inhabited planet that was destroyed. The traumatic hunger for soma hints to it... not sure though.

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Mague,
I don't know much about Buddhism but I would suggest that Ananda wasn't Guatama's natal brother but more his symbolic brother.

Your quote about the Dasyus (where from?) is the interpretation of the now defunct Aryan Invasion theory. This theory was dreamt up in the C19th by the same racist, colonial mentalies you mentioned. At that time nothing was allowed to be earlier or cleverer than the Greeks. Internal evidence in the Rig, e.g. astronomical and geographical, has pushed back the date of it origin way beyond anything we have from Greece. Also no evidence of an invasion has ever been found. (I can provide some links if anyone is interested in this subject).

Sorry for the brevity of my response but I've a lot on my mind [sic] today.

[seasmith]

Maguey,

But some are not allowed to incarnate here or some have been here and dont want to leave although already dead and bodyless spirits. Those make contact to humans, offer them "supernatural" favors for soma. For example the dimmension of time is not much of a problem for them. Its easy for them to give hints about future events. Some of them have an endless hunger and help humans to build religions or empires. The only reason for such vast hirarchies is to farm soma big time. The most greedy ones are what we imagine as pure daemon. They really take over the human, steal their incarnation. In that regard our current civilisation exists only to feed Moloch.

Sounds like you've been reading Castanadas ?

He explained that sorcerers see infant human beings as strange, luminous balls of energy covered from the top to the bottom with a glowing coat something like a plastic cover that is adjusted tightly over their cocoon of energy.

He said that that glowing coat of awareness was what the predators consumed, and that when a human being reached adulthood, all that was left of that glowing coat of awareness was a narrow fringe that went from the ground to the top of the toes. That fringe permitted mankind to continue living, but only barely.

As if I were in a dream, I heard don Juan explaining that, to his knowledge, man was the only species that had the glowing coat of awareness outside that luminous cocoon. Therefore, he became easy prey for an awareness of a different order; such as the heavy awareness of the predator.

From Lizzie's " On gods, genes, etc." the next drawer down.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3040&start=60


" The World is a Vampire" - Smashing Pumkins via Ray Bradbury

s

[mague]

Hi Mague,
I don't know much about Buddhism but I would suggest that Ananda wasn't Guatama's natal brother but more his symbolic brother.

Your quote about the Dasyus (where from?) is the interpretation of the now defunct Aryan Invasion theory. This theory was dreamt up in the C19th by the same racist, colonial mentalies you mentioned. At that time nothing was allowed to be earlier or cleverer than the Greeks. Internal evidence in the Rig, e.g. astronomical and geographical, has pushed back the date of it origin way beyond anything we have from Greece. Also no evidence of an invasion has ever been found. (I can provide some links if anyone is interested in this subject).

Sorry for the brevity of my response but I've a lot on my mind [sic] today.

Hi,

after the weekend i think i got the original Text wrong. I had that feeling form the start somehow...

This wine of Soma represents, [...], the intoxication of ...

I think he rather wanted to say that the Ananda itself is the drug (drug here in a positive view). that flows into the mind. If this is the right translation, then i ll agree with him.

[mague]

Maguey,

But some are not allowed to incarnate here or some have been here and dont want to leave although already dead and bodyless spirits. Those make contact to humans, offer them "supernatural" favors for soma. For example the dimmension of time is not much of a problem for them. Its easy for them to give hints about future events. Some of them have an endless hunger and help humans to build religions or empires. The only reason for such vast hirarchies is to farm soma big time. The most greedy ones are what we imagine as pure daemon. They really take over the human, steal their incarnation. In that regard our current civilisation exists only to feed Moloch.

Sounds like you've been reading Castanadas ?

He explained that sorcerers see infant human beings as strange, luminous balls of energy covered from the top to the bottom with a glowing coat something like a plastic cover that is adjusted tightly over their cocoon of energy.

He said that that glowing coat of awareness was what the predators consumed, and that when a human being reached adulthood, all that was left of that glowing coat of awareness was a narrow fringe that went from the ground to the top of the toes. That fringe permitted mankind to continue living, but only barely.

As if I were in a dream, I heard don Juan explaining that, to his knowledge, man was the only species that had the glowing coat of awareness outside that luminous cocoon. Therefore, he became easy prey for an awareness of a different order; such as the heavy awareness of the predator.

From Lizzie's " On gods, genes, etc." the next drawer down.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3040&start=60


" The World is a Vampire" - Smashing Pumkins via Ray Bradbury

s

I have read all from Castaneda, i saw the movie Matrix and i have read a few other books, papers and websites about the topic.

But usually nothing exists until i was able to observe something myself. I am a victim myself Just, unlike many people, i can be very stubborn and opposed it. All i can describe you is the shaman view of it.

Castaneda has two big topics in his books. First its the eagle and 2nd is the flier. The eagle was mentioned in one of the first books, the flier appears rather late. Both have similar qualities but its not clear if they are the same. If they are not the same, then in Castaneda's world there are a lot of beings (at least two species) who "eat" something we humans have. I tend to think they are not the same. Because Juan has different long term strategies to deal with the eagle, but only one directive to deal with the flier.

I do not agree with Castaneda in many points. This may be, because Juan is a descendant of very weird thinking, power and might orientated mages. Actually i think those mages or their ancestors probably have been one cause of the problem. I do agree that soma is a rare raw in this universe and it attracts beings. Btw. soma is not consciousness.

This makes it very complex. There is no simple "Satan-god" theory. Simplified there are two forces. There is the force stealing from others and there is the force reacting to the lack of a natural soma coating.
A natural apple from a tree has its wax like coating which keeps him stable for a long time. Just make a small hole with your finger nail into it and watch what happens. The decay and the bacteria who create the mildew are not the cause. Cause was the finger nail.
So, whatever out there is stealing/removing/disturbing soma is the cause. The little daemons are just the effect. And they can be removed They just enjoy to infect "damaged" people and even their dead corpses. They are destructive and humble. Any remaining soma will do for them. While they can be annoying, they are just part of the energetic cycle. Like any scavenger is.

Back to the mages. As today so in the past. One of the biggest ill thinking of "black" mages is the accumulation of energy/power. The more of this "energy" the more they can alter the world. Why not stealing it ? Why not creating a hierarchic political system ? A system where either the mage is the king/master or the gray eminence ? Quite stupid so far, but there is more Lets assume the guy on the top of the "energy collector" is worshiping some kind of being and the being is asking for energy and more and more and more through centuries. I d say this society is pretty much f*cked up forever.
But it getting even more worse. Those guy taking part in this mess knowingly need a steady flow of soma or the little decay guys will grab them. Those guys would rot instantly but live because of the steady flow of soma. We are able to observe this, its the same pattern heavy drug addicts show. Demand and drug-related crime.

Independent of those funny mages there are sort of beings or distorted energy spots. If you are sensible then go out into the forest in a few weeks when the birds breed. Just not in deep forests, only in small ones surrounded by "civilisation". The eggs and the young birds attract them. But the grown up birds are able to deal with them on their own. As masters of vibrations i tend to think they are the most developed species on the planet anyways

[StevenJay]

Hello, mague -

After reading some of the Castanada's material years ago, I was rather put off by the complexities of all of the miriad entities and their mischievous behavior. My Heart just kept going

Years later, after being introduced to the EU model, and especially the Saturn Theory, I've relegated much of his writings to the over-all emotional fallout and confusion resulting from the collective trauma of the Saturn system break-up, same as with all of the world's religious institutions (Your "daemons" picture illustrates that fairly clearly, to me anyway). I see them as a mash-up of inherent human gnosis tweaked by experience-induced psychosis - something we as a species are just now beginning to awaken to (hence, the increased turmoil).

I know this is an over-simplification, but that's how I'm seeing things these days; in simplicities. I view the scientific method as a means to demonstrate to the fear-filled egoic mind what Heart Intelligence already knows. I see a mass exodus of boats pushing off from the shore in search of what lies beyond the dark stormy horizon of fear and limitation.

As an aside (since the topic of this thread deals with telepathy), I interpret telepathy as the ability to not necessarily know the exact thoughts of others, but rather to be able to know their feelings and intentions. If you're able to know the intentions of others, you can never be fooled or manipulated.

[timeworm]

Heyas! (my first post - whee - \o/)

could this be type of telepathy:

You have a desire to know something and someone appears with the information/knowledge you desire. Like you somehow worded your wish to the reality and someone heard that wish.. even if it all happened without either party being conscious of it.

I do know someone who insists she can 'talk' with animals and says it's done via emotions. Don't know about that, but I wouldn't be surprised if it came be known that empathy and sympathy were remnants of some greater unity we people might have had in the past.

I read this thread few days ago and am actually mostly confused what it is all about
So please do help and tell...

What is Soma? I have always thought it was entheogen. And hoping it would be fly agaric since they grow on my backyard. But what exactly you guys mean by it? and what do you base it on?

Someone also mentioned shamans world and shamanic tradition. Could you specify which shamanic tradition you are talking about. I can understand (and believe) that the basis for all shamanistic knowledge is same, but I also tend to believe that socio-cultural aspects play no small role in the interpretation of that knowledge. And we need to be aware of it to be able see the knowledge as it is, unless we gain direct experience of shamanic knowledge ourselves.

And on topic of Castaneda..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 106173390#

They say some pretty harsh things about Castaneda...

[Grey Cloud]

Hi Timeworm and wlecome aboard,

You asked about Soma:

This wine of Soma represents, as we have abundant proof in the Veda and especially in the ninth book, a collection of more than a hundred hymns addressed to the deity Soma, the intoxication of the Ananda, the divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. If we accept these interpretations, we can easily translate the hymn into its psychological significance. The Secret of the Veda pp73-74.

You wrote:

I can understand (and believe) that the basis for all shamanistic knowledge is same, but I also tend to believe that socio-cultural aspects play no small role in the interpretation of that knowledge.

Well stated and I fully agree.

Not had chance to watch your video link yet but I'm not a fan of Castenada.

[seasmith]

Hi Timeworm,

“What is Soma? I have always thought it was entheogen.”

“divine delight of being, inflowing upon the mind from the supramental consciousness through the Ritam or Truth. If we accept these interpretations, we can easily translate the hymn into its psychological significance. The Secret of the Veda pp73-74.”

The Rig Veda (oldest Veda) is, like all myth, repleat with dual figures. The Rig is especially fond of fire (Agni), Soma, horses, cows, clarified butter, rivers, sun, moon and the like. “Dual in the symbolic sense that they name a physical entity or phenomenon in the story and at the same time, with its symbolic meaning(s), tell a parallel story, on a more esoteric level. Common knowledge.
For example, symbolic interpretations of some physical items might be: fire as the divine spark of truth or will, cow as the bringer of light, horse as divine force, clarified butter as the clear light of inspiration, and so on. The shades of interpretation could vary, depending if a psychological (as per Sri Aurobindo’s interpretations above)
~ or a revelatory meaning, for the myth is sought.


Soma might be a symbol for holy communion with spirit, but there is no reason why it could not also have been a real “entheogen”, like peyote (as the Hopi use it), amanita, ayahuasca, or even ascetic meditation.



Rig Veda-

4.29 v.9
...let the hero rase the goblet to drink until ecstatic with Soma..

9.74 v.9
Clarifying Soma, when you are sated with waters your juice runs through the sieve made of wool. Polished by the poets, Soma who brings supreme ecstasy...

10.94 v.8
The stones are swift horses; their bridle with ten thongs fits them comfortably. They have tasted the filtered juice of the first pressing of the Soma juice milked from the stalk.
" v.9
These Soma -eaters kiss Indra's pair of bays. As they milk the stalk they sit upon the ox (the Soma stalks are placed upon an oxhide). When Indra (the higher self) has drunk the honey they have milked he grows great and acts like a bull.

10.101 v.7
Keeps the horses happy and you will win the stake, Make your chariot in to a vehicle of good fortune. Drink at the fountain that has Some vats for buckets, a pressing stone for it's wheel, a consecrated goblet for its casing (wooden bowls); this is the fountain where ... men drink.

10.71 v.
Those who move neither near nor far, who are not real Brahmins nor pressers of Soma; using speech in a bad way, they weave on a weft of rags, without understanding.

[mague]

Soma is a form of radiation of biomass.

Mainstream knows psycho-somatic illness. This hints to a mind-body bridge.

It is part of the autonomic nervous system indeed.

A thought creates an uncomfortable emotion and the emotion may harm the body. For example if a certain picture makes you feel sick and you continue to observe the picture then your body will become sick. Its just a question of time and the intensity of the impression on your Soma. Look how some people have to puke once they saw a certain picture. Mind- emotion-body reaction. All based on Soma.

Soma is the radiation field on the layer where mind and emotion and body are connected. It is not only a interface/function in your body, it really radiates.

Soma works both ways. A sick child radiates his Soma and the mother is able to feel it. The mother's mind/emotion reacts and radiates back her own Soma. Which will help the child to feel comfortable. But it does not only help to feel better, it really supports the healing of the child on the Soma layer. This is, because the Soma is connected to mind and body, it eases on all levels. Mainstream doctor's use strong pain killers at a certain stage of an illness/injury. The painkiller has no healing properties, it removes only pain. The removal of pain is comfortable for the patient and frees energy that was bound to the pain. This free energy helps the body to recover. This is Soma again. The mind doesnt have to deal with pain, which is a pure mind emotion, and doesnt need energy to resist the pain. This freed energy then is added to the self healing mechanism.

Any living organism radiates Soma. Actually we are supposed to live in a coherent Soma field. The oldschool attempt to discover healing plants is to recognize their Soma. Based on this the oldschool herbalist's observes the sick Soma field and tries to find the right plant with a Soma field that suits the sick Soma field best.

[mague]

Heyas! (my first post - whee - \o/)

c
Someone also mentioned shamans world and shamanic tradition. Could you specify which shamanic tradition you are talking about. I can understand (and believe) that the basis for all shamanistic knowledge is same, but I also tend to believe that socio-cultural aspects play no small role in the interpretation of that knowledge. And we need to be aware of it to be able see the knowledge as it is, unless we gain direct experience of shamanic knowledge ourselves.

And on topic of Castaneda..
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 106173390#

They say some pretty harsh things about Castaneda...

Hi

lets forget about Castaneda. I didnt bring him up and i said allready that i do not agree with him in may points. Heck even Starship Enterprise: Revolution tells a similar story IMHO even better then Castaneda

You ask about tradition ?

The history of Shamans in central Europe is extremely poor. The inquisition did a proper job back then.
But even the catholic church has a rich knowledge about obsessions. And the healing of it. They know that is has nothing to do with Satan
Well, since a decade or two we have Vatican 2.0 and they do not support this idea officially anymore.

Since there is not tradition left i have to borrow a word form the American natives: Heyoka.

Heyoka have no tradition. They have no teacher-scholar tradition. This is because Planet earth/the biosphere creates them on their own. They are all new and without any tradition.