Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?

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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Fri Feb 24, 2017 1:42 pm

Sorry guys, but a simple google search will show many articles proving that Josephus never existed. And they have known he never existed for hundreds of years. So when the article I posted on Masada points out that they "found" Masada, based on the writings of Josephus, they were knowingly fabricating the Masada myth for political reasons, just like Fomenko points out that people have been doing since the Middle Ages.

What's interesting, is I did a search on the two Fomenko books online, and there was no mention of Josephus. I've looked at the other two books and can't find Josephus. Fomenko didn't use Josephus because real scholars, centuries ago, realized that Josephus was fake.

You guys can dismiss what Fomenko is writing, but the various arguments that you guys are using to dismiss Fomenko would have more standing if you actually read Fomenko.

- Read the four Fomenko books that Grey Cloud found, then take Fomenko's argument apart, point by point(not just vague attacks with no examples from the books), and we will be happy to run with you.

Don't get me wrong, I love the links that you guys have found. You guys have found gold. They are an awesome source of counterfactuals. I'm still reading through them. Please keep it up if you like, but do read the actual Fomenko so that we can get started.

BTW, I found this great quote as I was writing this post, it sums the thread up so far.

I never guess. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:46 pm

Allyn,

but a simple google search will show many articles proving that Josephus never existed.
So provide some links. I've just done a 'simple google search' and got zilch.

You guys can dismiss what Fomenko is writing, but the various arguments that you guys are using to dismiss Fomenko would have more standing if you actually read Fomenko.
I have read all the Fomenko you have referred me to plus various other chunks. Have you ever read any actual history, archaeology, philology, etc?

- Read the four Fomenko books that Grey Cloud found, then take Fomenko's argument apart, point by point(not just vague attacks with no examples from the books), and we will be happy to run with you
That's rich. You have still not answered any point I have made in point by point response to Fomenko's drivel.

I would guess that your quote comes from the pen of Conan Doyle and is said by Sherlock Holmes.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:35 pm

Hi Allynh,
allynh wrote:You guys have found gold. They are an awesome source of counterfactuals.

Haha, I had to look up what was the meaning of 'counterfactual'
(Not sure what you need them for....) :-)

"A counterfactual conditional (abbreviated CF), is a conditional containing an if-clause which is contrary to fact. The term counterfactual was coined by Nelson Goodman in 1947"

So I guess that could mean,
***If all the writings and histories of the first 1000 years of our history are faked and Josephus never existed, then Fomenko must be true" ...

***If Josephus, and all the thousands of other writers existed and wrote their histories, letters and other works in the period between 1 AD to 1000 AD ... then Fomenko's claims about Jesuits faking all this history are proven false... ie not true
allynh wrote: never guess. It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data

OK, with that one settled, here's some facts...
The real point here is the contention that Fomenko makes, ie that history before 1000 AD is fake, then the Jesuits must have faked thousands and thousands of cross-referenced and interlocking histories, including all the manuscripts and letters written in the first four centuries AD, including the histories of Josephus, and all the letters discussing Josephus and other bible topics alone would all have to be forged...
Tertullian, Ireneaus, Origen, Augustine, Jerome, Eusebius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Barnabas, Clement of Alexandria, Hermas, Tatian, Hippolytus, Cyprian, and ***hundreds of thousands of others...

There are approx 25,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament alone, and only approx 900 of the nearest old book, the Iliad...

There are over 32000 quotes from the New Testament in other manuscripts written before the Council of Nicaea in 323 AD, and one man, the incomparable Burgon, collected 86,000 quotes from the bible written in the first few hundred years of the Christian era!

So not only volume of written matter, but the content of these writings discuss issues, people, events, places, ideas, and have internal consistency, ie each author has a vocabulary and style that is generally another way to check the authenticity of ancient writing:

The links below shows how carefully and minutely every word of Josephus has been picked over by Christian, Jewish, ***and atheist historians... no suggestion by all these hundreds of scholars and historians anywhere in all this enormous amount of careful nit-picking that Josephus didn't exist...

"Modern scholarship has almost universally acknowledged the authenticity of the reference to "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James" and has rejected its being the result of later Christian interpolation. Moreover, in comparison with Hegesippus' account of James' death, most scholars consider Josephus' to be the more historically reliable."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

The link below shows how carefully and minutely every word of Josephus has been picked over by Christian, Jewish, and atheist historians... no suggestion here that Josephus didn't exist...

On the contrary, the writing and vocabulary and style of Josephus is used to speculate on the possible addition of a couple of words into one of his writings, he wrote of course thousands and thousands of words..

Early evidence with quotes from Josephus in the first few centuries show that if Josephus didn't exist, then someone else with the same name must have written his stuff :-)

There is controversy about a particular passage in Josephus, related to Jesus Christ, which some people who don't want it to be genuine, maintain was inserted into Josephus' text... some maintain that Eusebius added a few words to this small passage... the existence of Josephus is not an issue, the dispute is a very early testimony to the existence of Josephus as an author and historian of the Jews, some Jews don't like Josephus because they maintain he was a deserter during the Roman crushing of the Jewish rebellion, but all this shows he was a real person who wrote in the years just after 70 AD.

Josephus is quoted by Eusebius in approx 324 AD then....

"First, Ambrose <...> Writing around 30 or so years after Eusebius, he quotes from the Testimonium] Flavium [TF]:"

Ambrose says in effect, even Josephus bears witness:

"The Jews themselves also bear witness to Christ, as appears by Josephus, the writer of their history, who says thus: '<...>

"Ambrose has cited from the TF every positive statement about Jesus to use in his argument that Jesus was divine. He notes that Jesus was wise, recites the "if it is lawful" reference, notes that he did "wonderful works," and records that he "appeared to his disciples" and that he did many other miraculous things. However, Ambrose completely fails to note that Josephus claimed that Jesus was the Christ. [the disputed phrase] In fact, he seems to understand that Josephus was clearly an unbeliever. It is very unlikely that Ambrose would have ignored such a strong attestation of Jesus -- if it existed in his manuscript. Clearly, his manuscript did not contain that phrase (though it is possible that he would leave out a statement that "he was called the Christ" because it implied disbelief). Therefore, this citation of the TF strongly suggests that ....

****within 30 years of Eusebius' writings, there existed a Greek manuscript tradition of Antiquities that omitted the phrase "he was the Christ."

"Second, Jerome -- writing at the end of the Fourth Century -- also cites the TF and explicitly differs from Eusebius' version by noting that Josephus merely stated that Jesus was "called the Christ."

"Josephus in the 18th book of Antiquities, most expressly acknowledges that Christ was slain by the Pharisees, on account of the greatness of his miracles.... Now he wrote concerning our Lord after this manner: "At the same time there was Jesus, a wise man, if yet it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of those who willingly receive the truth. He had many followers both of the Jews and of the Gentiles -- he was believed to be the Christ. And when by the envy of our principal men, Pilate had condemned him to the cross, yet notwithstanding those who had loved him at first persevered, for he appeared to them alive on the third day, as the oracles of the prophets had foretold many of these and other wonderful things concerning him: and the sect of Christians so named from him are not extinct to this day."

People may have different opinions about Josephus' writings, but Fomenko is clearly stretching credulity to claim Josephus didn't exist.

http://www.bede.org.uk/Josephus.htm
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:13 am

Sketch,
Thanks, you saved me a lot of typing and reading there, I was going to do something similar using the Greeks. Aren't time-zones great!


Allyn,
Tertullian, Ireneaus, Origen, Augustine, Jerome, Eusebius, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Barnabas, Clement of Alexandria, Hermas, Tatian, Hippolytus, Cyprian.
Most, if not all, of these authors wrote several books. Tertullian for example is credited with 32. There is a huge amount of complex and arcane theology in these texts much of which was no longer dogma. That's a lot of forging.

From sketch's post:
The real point here is the contention that Fomenko makes, ie that history before 1000 AD is fake, then the Jesuits must have faked thousands and thousands of cross-referenced and interlocking histories, . . .
And to this we can add that the forgers would have had to have invented an archaic form of Latin which they would then have to evolve into mediaeval Latin. For example: If ghost author A is supposed to be a contemporary of ghost writer B then their Latin would have to be the same. If ghost author C is later than A or B then C's Latin would have have to reflect that difference.

Furthermore, the ink, vellum and paper which these texts were written with and on would have to be produced in such a way as to fool modern scientific techniques which analyse the chemical composition of the ink and the structure of the paper fibres, and x-rays used in examining the re-use of vellum.

Then we multiply all of the above to include Greek, Aramaic, Ugarit, Hittite, Egyptian, Iranian, sanskrit, etc., etc., etc. Just how many Jesuits were there? And what an education system the SJ must have had to produce such scholars on an industrial scale.

How does Fomenko account for the destruction of Pompeii and the subsequent uncovering of Roman era buildings and artifacts?
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:28 pm

Grey Cloud wrote:So provide some links. I've just done a 'simple google search' and got zilch.

Really? You didn't bother to try the simple search string:

Josephus never existed

or

Josephus was fake

Plenty of links show up, and sketch1946 is clearly quoting from many of them.

Here is another fun quote for Grey Cloud:
allynh wrote:You can lead a man to Google, but you can't make him search.

Then there was the comment by sketch1946:
sketch1946 wrote:People may have different opinions about Josephus' writings, but Fomenko is clearly stretching credulity to claim Josephus didn't exist.

Fomenko never makes that claim, and I never said that he did. It's interesting that you would twist things that way. I simply pointed out that as far as I can tell Fomenko never mentions Josephus. I was the one that pointed out that it was probably because Josephus had been declared a fake centuries ago. Do pay attention. HA!

This brings up the main problem that I have been raising all along. You guys have filled ten pages of the thread, helped generate over 5000 views, and yet you guys have yet to actually read Fomenko. It boggles the mind.

- Let us know when you guys have actually at least read Book One, so that we can get started discussing Fomenko.

It's in Book One that Fomenko goes into detail about the scientific process he used to reach his conclusion. That will answer the points that sketch1946 brought up in the post above. And yes, Grey Cloud, that means that you do have to read and understand the charts and graphs that Fomenko uses to prove his point. You can't just say what you posted way back on page two and expect to learn anything.
Grey Cloud wrote:I'm not reading this drivel. I have some knowledge of the ancient Mediterranean so I looked at what Fomenko had to say. There does not appear to be anything to read, certainly no context or narrarative just a string of assertions interspersed with statistical graphs and charts.

This next part is the perfect example of what I mean:
Grey Cloud wrote:How does Fomenko account for the destruction of Pompeii and the subsequent uncovering of Roman era buildings and artifacts?

Pull up Book One on Google Books, do a search on "Pompeii" and you will see where Fomenko discusses Pompeii. As I have been saying since page one, all the questions that you have are answered in the books, but you do have to actually read them.

I want to thank everyone for keeping the thread active. As I said above, we are up to over 5000 views, and now ten pages. Thanks...
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:40 pm

Allyn,
Yet again you have dodged around any of the objections I have raised to what Fomenko has written. Your statement:
Let us know when you guys have actually at least read Book One, so that we can get started discussing Fomenko
is nonsense. I have taken my objections directly from what Fomenko has written.

The charts mean nothing if the data used to make them is faulty or false.

Okay, so I googled 'Josephus never existed' and 'Josephus was fake' and I get hits about Jesus not existing and the Josephus passage being an interpolation. These ideas/notions pre-date Fomenko by a long time. Nothing about Josephus not existing.

I'll have a look at Fomenko's take on Pompeii. Meanwhile maybe you could work on answering some of my objections.

Edit. Had a look at Fomenko's nonsense, yet again.

How does he explain the fact that the people in the murals are depicted wearing Roman clothes not mediaeval clothes? Presumably the dead are similarly attired.

Does he provide any mediaeval references for a volcanic eruption which destroyed Pompeii? And I mean mediaeval not ancient writers who he says are mediaeval. Naples is not a million miles away from Rome.

Why does Pompeii have an ampitheatre, a gymnasium and a House of the Gladiators?

Why are the architecture and construction techniques Roman and not mediaeval?

Why is the graffiti, for example, in the vulgar Latin of the C1st and not that of the mediaeval period Fomenko claims?

Some more questions for you to not answer.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:48 pm

Damn, too late to edit so I lost some stuff.

Fomenko, page 62 and Fig. 1.49

Gladiator helmets:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&s ... Axyrf47ioQ

Graffiti:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&s ... YKC6kZ7GrM:
Fomenko's figure is a way down on the RHS - it's a graffito not a Michelangelo.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:51 am

This whole idea of Fomenko that the ancient Greek world is fake is just past logic.. on page 32 of Chron1 he describes how the three oldest (Greek) codices of the New Testament only surface after the fifteenth century... these are not the oldest evidence of the bible at all! People are still finding more first and second century papyrus fragments of the bible every year...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_N ... ent_papyri

"The New Testament has been preserved in more manuscripts than any other ancient work, having over 5,800 complete or fragmented Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Gothic, Ethiopic, Coptic and Armenian. The dates of these manuscripts range from c. 125 (...papyrus, oldest copy of John fragments)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

The famous Dead Sea Scrolls or Qumran texts: a collection found in a cave, dated to a period from approx 200 BC to approx 200 AD:
Fomenko doesn't believe radio carbon-dating is useful to date items whose age may be 2-3 thousand years, and says that 'the American historian S. Zeitlin categorically insists on "the medieval origin of these texts".

Book of Isaiah from the Old Testament found at Qumran:
"The scroll is written in Hebrew and contains the entire Book of Isaiah from beginning to end, apart from a few small damaged portions. It is the oldest complete copy of the Book of Isaiah known, being 1100 years older than the Leningrad Codex, and the most complete scroll out of the 220 found at Qumran. Pieces of the Isaiah Scroll have been carbon-14 dated at least four times, giving calibrated date ranges between 335-324 BC and 202-107 BC; there have also been numerous paleographic and scribal dating studies placing the scroll around 150-100 BC."

On page 38 Fomenko claims "...Scaligerian history is of the opinion that all the events involving the Biblical Abraham and Moses occurred on the territory of modern Egypt..."
What!
IMHO Fomenko is clearly not an author that can possibly be taken seriously!

Fomenko quotes on (page 30) Anton Jirku, a "German specialist in biblical history"
"...The historians have given birth to a hypothesis identifying it as the ruins excavated in the Tell el-Ful Hill six kilometers to the north of modern Jerusalem. However, it is conceded that "not a single inscription was found in town, and no clear evidence that the ruins belong to Saul's palace or a tower that he built"
"....But had Saul's palace really been built there?"

...so then Fomenko decides:
"CONCLUSION: Archaeological research shows that the books of the Old Testament have no archaeological proof of their localization and dating as suggested by the Scaligerian tradition.."

So on this 'evidence' Fomenko dumps the ***entire archaeology of the whole old testament!
He says: "Thus the entire "Mesopotamian" Biblical theory becomes questionable."

Then Fomenko goes on to say:
"The traditional localization of the events described in the New Testament isn't in any better condition." :-)

His evidence? Incredibly, he says:
The lack of archaeological proof of the Scaligerian localization of the New Testament is explained by the fact that "Jerusalem was destroyed in the years 66-73, and that the Jews had been forbidden.. to come anywhere near the city"...

(this 'War against the Jews' was the subject of Josephus' history, but Fomenko just makes the whole history of Jerusalem, the history written by Josephus, Josephus himself, and even the city itself, just vanish in a puff of fantasy!

"Scaligerian history is of the opinion that Jerusalem can be located at the settlement that the locals call El Kuds, whose site used to be perfectly barren before..."

"... it was after some time that "the ancient Jerusalem" was reborn here.... <...> The "historical remnants of Biblical times" shown to tourists today, such as the Wailing Wall, etc, do not hold up to even minimal scientific criticism, in full absence of historical and archaeological proof."

Again, Fomenko is telling a porky... the Wailing Wall has surely been holding up pretty well.... and what is the argument that proves Jerusalem/El Kuds/Al Quds isn't where it's always been? Fomenko dismisses Velikovsky as irrelevant, yet V's discussion of the dating of Ugarit/Ras Shamra, and the anachronistic Hebrew found there, surely relevant to chronology, and V's discussion of the name of Jerusalem as Al Quds, Kadesh, surely relevant, etc etc

so Fomenko has dismissed the ***entire archaeology of the Old Testament:
"By the time of Jesus Christ and the apostles, no physical evidence of Nineveh could be seen. Lucian of Samosata (A.D. 120-180), a Greek writer, lamented: “Nineveh has perished. No trace of it remains. No one can say where once it existed” (Magnusson, p. 175).

"Such a lack of visible remains led some scholars of the 19th century to express skepticism that Nineveh or any part of the Assyrian Empire even existed, much less dominated a significant part of the world."

"... the only historical source in those days that verified the existence of the empire was the Bible. The Old Testament histories and prophecies spoke about Assyria. Jesus proclaimed the existence of Nineveh as a historical fact (Matthew 12:41). Yet some scholars disputed the testimony of Jesus and the prophets—that is, until “one spectacular decade in the middle of the nineteenth century... Austen Henry Layard and Paul Emile Botta rediscovered in northern Iraq the ancient remains of three Assyrian cities [including Nineveh] and evidence of the military panoply that had crushed all resistance from the Tigris to the Nile. The Assyrian empire…in all its awesome power had been resurrected through archaeology” (Magnusson, p. 175).

"...The excavations at Nineveh and other cities in the area yielded a staggering wealth of historical evidence including “tens of thousands of tablets” containing “an immense amount of data” ( The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1962, Vol. 1, “Assyria and Babylon,” p. 275). The Bible had been right all along.

More abundance of history that Fomenko wants to shift to the late middle ages, or just deny altogether?
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:58 am

Archeology vindicates an intricate web of ancient historical accounts, and archaeological evidence linking ***tsunami waves, buried historical places, and other artifacts that link to dates during the period Fomenko claims is fake history:

Did the Jesuits go and bury all the statues and sculptures and coins of these buried cities or did they just overlook these places in their fake history, or did these cities get buried 1000 years later, did Jesuits insert descriptions of disasters they didn't even know about into ancient texts? How did they manage the carbon 14 dates and 800 year periodicity of these tsunamis... or are all the modern archaeologists somehow party to Fomenko's Roman Catholic Conspiracy?

"There is ample evidence indicating that on July 21, 365 AD a great earthquake near the west coast of the Island of Crete generated a mega-tsunami, which was responsible for extensive destruction throughout the Eastern Mediterranean, but particularly on Peloponnesus, the Greek Islands, Sicily, Libya, Cyprus, Palestine and Egypt. It is believed that the combined catastrophic impacts of the earthquake and tsunami were significant catalysts in furthering the declination of the Roman Empire and contributing to its subsequent final division between the East Roman and the West (Byzantine) empires in 395 A.D."

"According to historical records, it was a disaster of major proportions, which shocked the ancient world by destroying major cities and causing the deaths of thousands of people in coastal areas extending from present Croatia, to Greece and to the Nile Delta in Egypt."

"Of all historical disasters in the Eastern Mediterranean region - perhaps because of its severe impact on the ancient world - the best documented by ancient historians was the one caused by the 365 AD great earthquake and tsunami. However, many Greek, Roman and Byzantine historians have documented many more earthquakes and tsunamis prior and after this 365 AD event."

"According to historian Herodotus – considered to be the “Father of History” - the first recorded tsunami in the Eastern Mediterranean region occurred in 479 BC in Potidea of Halkidiki in the Northern Aegean Sea. The waves of this tsunami allegedly destroyed King Xerxes’ fleet during the second phase of the Persian wars. The citizens of Potidea attributed this event to the wrath of the tempestuous god Poseidon (Neptune), because the invading Persians had desecrated his statue."

"Greek historian Thucydides and historian/geographer Strabo describe the effects of another sea wave (tsunami) from an earthquake in 426 BC in Fthiotida and the Gulf of Thermaikos in Central Greece. This tsunami was responsible for damage in the northern part of the Island of Evia, in Atalanta, coastal settlements on the island of Skopelos and for the destruction of Ancient Skarfia and other cities."

"Historians/Geographers Strabo and Pausanias refer to the aforementioned earthquake in the winter of 373/372 BC near Corinth (estimated magnitude up to 9 on the Richter scale) and the combined destruction of Ancient Elike - an important city in Ancient Achaia Province - in the Gulf of Corinth on northern Peloponnesus. Philosopher Aristotle and ancient Greek historian Diodorus Siculus (Diodorus of Sicely, and sophist Ailianos, indicated in their accounts that all animals left this area five days before this earthquake struck and headed towards the direction of Corinth. According to Pausanias, Elike and its inhabitants sunk into the Corinthian Gulf after the terrible earthquake. To this day the ancient city’s exact location is not known...".

These ancient disaster accounts can be dated or at least sequenced by archaeology, and other corroborating inferences inferred from the various sites all around the Mediterranean, so the idea that all this history and archaeological evidence has to be packed into the second millenium is just not possible.
http://www.drgeorgepc.com/Tsunami365ADeEastMedSea.html
Last edited by sketch1946 on Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:02 am

Hi Allynh,
I hope you don't feel you are personally under attack, I believe that Fomenko is fundamentally wrong because the fundamental claim he makes that all history before 1000 AD is faked, is harder for me to believe than Father Christmas, or fairies at the bottom of the garden...

Many people are led to believe in fantasy to a greater or lesser degree, Fomenko, Fairies, and Father Christmas... but this thread, (seriously :-) ) is about history and chronology,
.....so for Fomenko to be right, makes a ****huge number of people wrong...

but that's not a good argument, I was thinking: "How can I find something that would be almost impossible for the Jesuits or the Roman Catholic wheelers and dealers to fake?

This is a good one.... not Pompeii or Herculaneum, but a city full of intact art, architecture and relics buried beneath the sea, that no-one, not even Fomenko has known about, or mentioned or written about for ***over a thousand years.

Ancient Alexandria:
Found recently, no faking.... how would the Jesuits have managed to bury a whole city, complete with faked artifacts, over 1200 years ago... complete with sculptures and coins and columns and other items some dating back to the Trojan War, and even maybe the fabled 400 foot high great Pharos lighthouse... an enormous and totally unbelievable feat to fake all this stuff....

Nevertheless, the city is still there, mostly still sunk beneath the waves, right where it disappeared beneath the waves in approx 800 AD.

"Thonis-Heracleion (the Egyptian and Greek names of the city) is a city lost between legend and reality. Before the foundation of Alexandria in 331 BC, the city knew glorious times as the obligatory port of entry to Egypt for all ships coming from the Greek world. It had also a religious importance because of the temple of Amun, which played an important role in rites associated with dynasty continuity. The city was founded probably around the 8th century BC, underwent diverse natural catastrophes, and finally sunk entirely into the depths of the Mediterranean in the 8th century AD."

"Prior to its discovery in 2000 by the European Institute for Underwater Archaeology (IEASM), directed by Franck Goddio, no trace of Thonis-Heracleion had been found."

"Its name was almost razed from the memory of mankind, only preserved in ancient classic texts and rare inscriptions found on land by archaeologists. The Greek historian Herodotus (5th century BC) tells us of a great temple that was built where the famous hero Herakles first set foot on to Egypt. He also reports of Helen’s visit to Heracleion with her lover Paris before the Trojan War. More than four centuries after Herodotus’ visit to Egypt, the geographer Strabo observed that the city of Heracleion, which possessed the temple of Herakles, is located straight to the east of Canopus at the mouth of the Canopic branch of the River Nile."

http://www.franckgoddio.org/projects/su ... leion.html

"Canopus was the site of a temple to the Egyptian god Serapis."

"The name of Canopus appears in the first half of the 6th century BC in a poem by Solon. Early Egyptological excavations some 2 or 3 km from the area known today as Abu Qir have revealed extensive traces of the city with its quays, and granite monuments with the name of Ramesses II, but they may have been brought in for the adornment of the place at a later date. The exact date of the foundation of Canopus is unknown, but Herodotus refers to it as an ancient port."

"Homeric myth claims that it was founded by Menelaus, and named after Canopus, the pilot of his ship, who died there after being bitten by a serpent. Legend describes how Menelaus built a monument to his memory on the shore, around which the town later grew up."
gold leaf ptolemy III 246 - 222 BC plaque 50k.jpg

Gold leaf, 11 x 5 cm wide, with engraved words in Greek. I am 5 and a half lines and is a base that was used to sign the money deposits on behalf of the King, Ptolemy III (246-222 BC), responsible for the construction of one of the neighboring buildings.
Credit: © Franck Goddio/Hilti Foundation, photo: Christoph Gerigk
http://chickgeek.org/lost-underwater-city-uncovered/
"A temple to Osiris was built by Pharaoh Ptolemy The Good (the third ruler of Egypt's Ptolemaic dynasty), but, according to Herodotus, very near to Canopus was an older shrine, a temple of Heracles that served as an asylum for fugitive slaves. Osiris was worshipped at Canopus under a peculiar form: that of a vase with a human head.

In Ptolemy III Euergetes' ninth regnal year (239 BC), a great assembly of priests at Canopus passed an honorific decree (the "Decree of Canopus") that, inter alia, conferred various new titles on the king and his consort, Berenice. Three examples of this decree are now known (plus some fragments), inscribed in Egyptian (in both hieroglyphic and demotic) and in classical Greek, and they were second only to the more famous Rosetta Stone in providing the key to deciphering the ancient Egyptian language. This was the earliest of the series of bilingual inscriptions of the "Rosetta Stone Series", also known as the Ptolemaic Decrees. There are three such Decrees altogether.

In Roman times, the town was notorious for its dissoluteness. Juvenal's Satire VI referred to the "debauchery" that prevailed there. The emperor Hadrian built a villa at Tivoli, 18 miles away from Rome, where he replicated for his enjoyment architectural patterns from all parts of the Roman empire. One of these (and the most excavated and studied today) was borrowed from Canopus.

"Radiocarbon dating of wooden planks and other excavated material shows evidence of human activity from the fourth century B.C. to the fourth century A.D"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canopus,_Egypt
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:13 am

Another snippet from that same website:
Dr. George Pararas-Carayannis, (modified paper published in Science of Tsunami Hazards, Vol. 30, No. 4, (2011) of Tsunami Society International) showing how modern science can verify ancient stories, and how 'myths' can turn into history, and from there help to build up a reliable chronology:
sketch1946 wrote:"According to historical records, it was a disaster of major proportions, which shocked the ancient world by destroying major cities and causing the deaths of thousands of people in coastal areas extending from present Croatia, to Greece and to the Nile Delta in Egypt."

"The combined impact of the earthquake and tsunami were described by historian Ammianus Marcellinus (Roman History, Book XXIII, 6:32-36) as the “destruction of all the world”. Other historians referred to this event as a disaster of biblical proportions. More importantly, this disaster occurred at a very critical time in history when the Roman Empire was slowly hemorrhaging with wars and political conflicts. Thus, the great devastation caused throughout the region by the combined effects of the earthquake and the tsunami, were major factors in the declination and eventual collapse of the Roman Empire."

"Many of the cities that were destroyed were never rebuilt. Some of the less-impacted cities did not adequately recover. Thirty years later, in 395 AD, the Roman Empire split between the East and the West (the Byzantine Empire), thus loosing considerable influence and power grip in the region.

"As stated there is ample historical information about the impact of the 365 AD earthquake as having occurred “everywhere" (Theofanis). Reportedly, strong ground motions were felt as far away as Dalmatia, Sicily, Libya, Cyprus and parts of Egypt and Palestine. The quake’s greatest intensities occurred on Crete, Peloponnesus and many other regions of Greece, where many cities were destroyed, with the exception of Athens and other cities in Attica which were spared..."

http://www.drgeorgepc.com/Tsunami365ADeEastMedSea.html
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby allynh » Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:38 pm

skecth1946 wrote:Hi Allynh,
I hope you don't feel you are personally under attack, I believe that Fomenko is fundamentally wrong because the fundamental claim he makes that all history before 1000 AD is faked, is harder for me to believe than Father Christmas, or fairies at the bottom of the garden...

No, of course not. Not at all. I enjoy reading all the counterfactuals that you have gathered from across the Internet. It is a most inventive tactic for avoiding doing the actual work.

- I'm just waiting for you guys to at least actually read Book One so that we can get started discussing Fomenko.

I was confused by a few comments you made above:
sketch1946 wrote:Again, Fomenko is telling a porky... the Wailing Wall has surely been holding up pretty well.... and what is the argument that proves Jerusalem/El Kuds/Al Quds isn't where it's always been? Fomenko dismisses Velikovsky as irrelevant, yet V's discussion of the dating of Ugarit/Ras Shamra, and the anachronistic Hebrew found there, surely relevant to chronology, and V's discussion of the name of Jerusalem as Al Quds, Kadesh, surely relevant, etc etc

I did a search on Book One and Two for "Velikovsky" and only found this brief mention on page XXX of Book One. His comment is in context and clear, your's is not.
Velikovsky.jpg

Then I did a search for "Wailing Wall" that you butchered and only found this in Book One, page 40:
Wailing Wall.jpg

I searched on other quotes you posted after that and can't find them in the Books. All we can tell is that "maybe" you have read the Introduction and up to page 40 of Book One, but I suspect cherry picking rather than actual reading.

But by all means, keep on posting the various consensus history counterfactuals that have nothing to do with Fomenko. It keeps the thread active and the view count climbing. Thanks...
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby Grey Cloud » Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:31 pm

Allyn,
I gave page and book refs in my posts but once again you have failed to address anything. You keep using your new word 'counterfactual' yet you fail to say how or why anything is counterfactual other than it disagrees with Fomenko.

The ten or so pages of this thread are 99.9% criticism of Fomenko, so far your defence has amounted to zilch. Even your latest attempt vis the paragraph about Veilikovsky shows what a liar Fomenko is. Velikovsky is not and never has been 'considered to be the founder of the "critical school" in chronology'. I've never heard of this 'critical school of chronology'. Have you?

You keep telling us to read his books. If you have read them then you should have us at a disadvantage thus allowing you to come back with solid evidence from Fomenko. So blow us away with the 'facts' and the evidence . . .

As an aside: Given that there is a dearth of evidence for the existence of Jesus, do you not think that the Jesuits would have assigned some of their vast forging expertise to producing some? It certainly appears a more logical enterprise to me than fabricating pagan religions for example.
If I have the least bit of knowledge
I will follow the great Way alone
and fear nothing but being sidetracked.
The great Way is simple
but people delight in complexity.
Tao Te Ching, 53.
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:07 pm

Hi Allynh,
I haven't read all of Fomenko's books. Granted.
I have read about 80 pages so far, and then responded specifically to things which seem problematic to put it the mildest way I know how....

I can't understand why you keep saying to read ***all of Fomenko's Chron1?
Surely I can start with the first things that seem wrong, and then see how you can reasonably defend some of Fomenko's assertions. Because so far it seems he is doing exactly what I pointed out earlier, that the description of the methods that writers of fake history, like Fomenko in my opinion, use real facts mixed with jumbled chronology to deliberately distort history.

In the second page of this pdf, there are three quotes, one from George Orwell, the author of 1984... the well-known dystopian novel which incidentally describes 'newspeak' or deliberate lying by the 'ministry of truth and justice' a pretty good description of totalitarian mass propaganda... and how the anti-hero of the book has the task of re-writing history, deliberately erasing politically incorrect individuals from history... a must read, Allynh :-) Have you read it?

"The Ministry of Truth is the propaganda ministry. As with the other ministries in the novel, the name Ministry of Truth is a misnomer because in reality it serves the opposite: it is responsible for any necessary falsification of historical events."

"As well as administering truth, the ministry [in Orwell's Nineteen-eighty four] spreads a new language amongst the populace called Newspeak, in which, for example, "truth" is understood to mean statements like 2 + 2 = 5 when the situation warrants. In keeping with the concept of doublethink, the ministry is thus aptly named in that it creates/manufactures "truth" in the Newspeak sense of the word. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministrie ... ighty-Four
"The book [1984] describes the doctoring of historical records to show a government-approved version of events."

In Orwell's novel, the definition of 'unperson' in the politically controlled language of 'newspeak':

"An unperson is someone who has been "vaporized"—not only killed by the state, but erased from existence. Such a person would be written out of existing books, photographs and articles so that no trace of their existence could be found in the historical record. The idea is that such a person would, according to the principles of doublethink, be forgotten completely (for it would be impossible to provide evidence of their existence), even by close friends and family."

"Mentioning an unperson's name, or even speaking of their past existence, is itself thoughtcrime; the concept that the person may have existed at one time and has disappeared cannot be expressed in Newspeak."

Interesting that Fomenko would choose his first quote from this particular book, '1984' by George Orwell:
"Who controls the past controls the future.
Who controls the present controls the past"

the second quote in Fomenko's Chron1 is from Johannes Kepler, who was accused by some of stealing Nicolas Copernicus' data when he died.
"Scaliger seduced me. Chronological studies terrify me."
(Yet Isaac Newton wrote extensively about chronology...)

the third quote from Fomenko's title page is from Augustine of Hippo, a Roman city in North Africa. the full quote really is about Christians avoiding Astrologers... especially those who make fake predictions, very relevant...

"According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 3rd edition, the word "mathematician" still meant astrologer as late as 1710."

" II, xvii, 37
Translation published in Mathematics in Western Culture (1953): "The good Christian should beware the mathematician and ***all those who make empty prophecies***. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell."
Modern translation by J.H. Taylor in Ancient Christian Writers (1982): "Hence, a devout Christian must avoid astrologers and all impious soothsayers, especially when they tell the truth, for fear of leading his soul into error by consorting with demons and entangling himself with the bonds of such association."
Note: The well known, but incorrect English translation was published on page 3 of Morris Kline's Mathematics in Western Culture (1953). This book is a favorite with math students and is still in print. The Latin word mathematici derives from the Greek meaning of "something learned" and refers mainly to ***astrologers***. This was the chief branch of mathematics at the time but has been replaced in modern times by a plethora of other branches. According to the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 3rd edition, the word "mathematician" still meant astrologer as late as 1710."

on page xvii, in a Foreward by Alexander Zinoviev titled "A Global Falsification of History" (which in my opinion is ***exactly what Fomenko is trying to do, create a global fake history....)

"...what A. T. Fomenko and his colleagues had learnt over the course of their research was the fact [sic] that the entire history of humanity up until the XVII century [1600's AD] is a forgery of global proportions ("old history" in their terminology) - a falsification as deliberate as it is universal...
I [Zinoviev] had not been aware of its scale ...or ***its social type..."

So these guys are fully aware of the social implications of rewriting history as a manipulative social power force, and are attempting to do exactly that... create a 'new history' in Orwellian newspeak, erasing a few thousand years of history and unpersons from the world, in a global lying forgery....

It's a very tedious process to attempt to fully address each of the assertions in this first book of Fomenko, the task would be monumental, and so this sort of writing technique, full of snippets of quotes from third-party authors, followed by unsubstantiated assertions, is confusing to anybody not willing to methodically check out each assertion...
in Zinoviev's words:
xvi "De facto, this [computer] technology allows for the possibility of drowning a scientific approach to historical events in an ocean of meaningless facts."

"...One becomes aware of the necessity to update our view of the past in accordance with ***whatever the present stipulates***..."

"...it has to be a large-scale organised operation; one that shall result in an epochal falsification of the entire history of mankind..."

"... the actual falsification is achieved via the selection of facts, their combination and interpretation..... I call such a system logical sociology...."
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Re: Anatoly Fomenko: False Chonology

Unread postby sketch1946 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:15 am

Fomenko and Morozov make a fuss of one eclipse reported by Thucydides where the eclipse was observed with the sun not completely obscured, yet stars were visible according to Thucydides. So Fomenko uproots the entire world history and relocates Thucydides (and the eclipse) to two dates in the 12th and 13th century...

Yet a simpler answer was Thucydides wasn't in Athens at the time of the eclipse, but observed it from near Adrianople, he was connected with Thrace, and this makes a believable solution to an apparent problem.

But there's more!
There are lots of eclipses reported in ancient records...
(Quoted from Fotheringham, J.K.)
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1920MNRAS..81..104F

The eclipse of Babylon: "On the twenty-sixth day of the month Sivan in the seventh year the day was turned to night, and fire in the midst of heaven..."
The eclipse of July 31st, 1062 BC at Babylon would have been the only one that can have been total at Babylon for that century....

The Assyrian eponym canon eclipse: "Isid-Raki's-rabe [or rather Ishdi-Sagale] of the city of Gozan. Insurrection in the city of Assur. In the month Sivan the sun was eclipsed."
The date is beyond question, since the Assyrian eponym canon overlaps Ptolemy's Canon of Kings, and the year 762 BC is obtained from counting backwards to the year of Ishdi-Sagale.
The Assyrian Chronicle is a fuller form of the eponym canon, containing not merely lists of eponyms, but striking events from all parts of Assyria, and Assyrian wars beyond Assyria. The reference to Sivan gives the time of year, and the identification with the eclipse of June 15th, 762 BC is certain...

The eclipse of Archilochus: " Nothing there is beyond hope, nothing that can be sworn impossible, nothing wonderful, since Zeus father of the Olympians made night from midday, hiding the light of the shining sun, and sore fear upon men"

The eclipse of Thales, from Herodotus: "War broke out between the Lydians and the Medes, and continued for five years, with various success. In the course of it the Medes gained many victories over the Lydians, and the Lydians also gained many victories over the Medes. Among their other battles there was one night engagement. As, however, the balance was not inclined in favour of either nation, another combat took place in the sixth year, in the course of which, just s the batle was growing warm, day was on a sudden changed into night. This event had been fortold by Thales, the Milesian, who forewarned the Ionians of it, fixing for it the very year in which it actually took place. The Medes and Lydians, when they observed the change, ceased fighting, and were alike anxious to have terms of peace agreed on."
The war fell according to Herodotus, and several other writers, in the reign of Alyattes of Lydia, and Cyaxares of Media.
Cicero places the eclipse in the reign of Astyages, the successor of Cyaxares.
Eusebius, who separates the eclipse from the war, places both in the reign of Astyages;
and Solinus places the war in the reign of Astyage.
Several ancient writers give the date of the eclipse, generally within a few years of 584 BC.
There was previously a problem ... Herodotus had Astyages dead in 557 BC... it is now known from the annalistic tablet of Cyrus, that the reign of Astyages lasted to 549 BC... it is impossible to say whether Cyaxares or Astyages was reigning on May 28th of that year, but there is no longer any reason for calling the date in question.

The eclipse of Pindar: "Beam of the Sun! O thou that seest afar, what wilt thou be devising? O mother of my eyes! O star supreme, reft from us in the daytime! Why hast thou perplexed the power of man and the way of wisdom, by rushing forth on a darksome track? "

also Pindar: "God can cause unsullied light to spring out of black night. He can also shroud in a dark cloud of gloom the pure light of day."

The eclipse was identified by Ideler with that of April 30th, 462 BC, which was certainly the largest at Thebes in the time of Pindar.

The description by Thucydides 430 BC: "During the same summer at the beginning of the lunar month (the only time it seems, when such an occurrance is possible) the sun was eclipsed after midday; it assumed the shap of a crescent, and became full again, and during the eclipse some stars became visible"

"..in order to render it possible for Thucydides to have seen stars, and guided by the narrative of negotiations with Thrace, which follows the record of this eclipse, suggested the real place of observation was at the Odrysian capital in the neighbourhood of Adrianople..." it is here that Fomenko takes a right-hand turn time-warp and ends up in the 12th century AD.... :-)

The eclipse of Agathocles: 'Since the year is specified by Diodorus... the eclipse was observed by the fleet of Agathocles the day after it had set out on a voyage lasting six days and six nights, from Syracuse to Latomiae on the African coast..'

The partial lunar eclipse cited by Ptolemy from Hipparchus at Alexandria Sept 22nd 200 BC, then another four lunar eclipses are reported 173 BC and 140 BC were partial eclipses, then another full eclipse at 128 BC...
The Babylonian astronomers of the time of Hipparchus not only observed, but predicted, the magnitudes of lunar eclipses.
so it's not possible to relocate all them to solve an apparent chronological problem....

The eclipse of Phlegon: "And Phlegon also who compiled the Olympiads writes about the same things in his thirteenth book in the following words: 'In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (32-35 AD) an eclipse of the sun took place greater than any previously known, and night came on at the sixth hour of the day, so that stars actually appeared in the sky; and a great earthquake took place in Bithynia and overthrew the greater part of Nicaea'

The eclipse of Plutarch: "...remembering that recent concurrence of sun and moon, which, beginning just after noon, showed us plainly many stars in all parts of the heavens, and produced a chill in the temperature like that at twilight..." March 20th 71 AD

The eclipse of Theon "... the time reckoned by civil days and equinoctial hours of the exact ecliptic conjunction which we have discussed, and which took place according to the Egyptian calendar in the 1112th year from the reign of Nabonassar 2 and five sixths equinoctial hours after midday on the 24th of Thoth, and according to the Alexandrine calendar reckoned by simple civil days in the 1112th year of the same reign two and five sixths equal or equinoctial hours after midday on the 22nd day of Payni... etc..' the date defined by Theon is clearly June 16th, 364 AD. This is the only ancient eclipse of the sun for which an astronomically observed time is recorded. The place, Alexandria, is equally certain.

So it's very obvious that Fomenko and Mozarov's reasons for relocating the whole edifice of human history based on the observations of eclipses by one man, Thucydides, and T's comment about seeing the stars during the eclipse, and then deciding to rewrite world history on that basis is pretty far fetched, to put it mildly... unless they have other motives for writing this unbelievable chronological reconstruction :-)
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