Bright Insight has a fun series of videos that shake things up:
Lost Roman Map has ATLANTIS at Eye of Sahara Africa! (Richat Structure)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo_fMcSLp7Q
- He thinks that he found Atlantis in North Africa.
World’s FIRST Map of Ancient AFRICA Will Shock You
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swkZUgqFJxs
Essentially:
During Younger-Dryas coastlines sank (Western Europe) and coastlines rose (Western South America and North Africa) rather than sea levels rising world wide.
I suspect that sea levels have been stable all along, just scientists misinterpreted the coastline of Western Europe as evidence of world wide sea level rise, claiming that a previous Ice Age was where 400 feet of water was stored on the continents.
- There was probably no Ice Age since they assumed one must have existed, with no actual evidence.
He also located a rock wall in North America that seems natural yet looks like the classic ancient structures.
NATURAL or MANMADE? Impossible Ancient Ruins Uncovered in North America? Sage Wall Montana Megaliths
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZ6FkRV5IXM
Fun stuff.
Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
311717
MALE GODS CONFUSION
I've had some trouble understanding which gods referred to Saturn, Mars & Jupiter. Below I'm showing most of a Thoth article by Dave Talbott, which I think may best help clarify things, though the clarity seems a bit nebulous, or it comes & goes. First there was one god, Saturn. Then it was seen that god/Saturn had a spirit/Venus and a soul/Mars. Then the first god was reborn as a new god, Jupiter, and the spirit and soul returned to the new god. Eventually, the new trinity departed, but I don't know yet where that story was told, or if it wasn't told, I don't know why not.
{I guess it was in the Age of Darkness that Saturn appeared alone with a dim reddish color. After the Saturn nova Venus & Mars were in front of Saturn and appeared to be part of Saturn. Sooner or later, and Cardona seems to say it was sooner, Venus & Mars went away from the center axis becoming observable as separate entities, but eventually returning to the center and appearing to reunite with Saturn or later Jupiter. My guess so far is that the Saturn nova occurred at the Younger Dryas c. 2,600 BC, Jupiter replaced Saturn during the Burckle Crater cataclysm c. 2,300 BC, then the Jupiter train broke up during the Dead Sea cataclysm at the time of Abraham c. 1,800 BC.}
MALE GODS https://saturniancosmology.org/othergro ... otiv12.txt
By Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs, Thoth, July 31, 2000
FROM ONE GOD TO 3 GODS IN ONE
Re: Kronos and Ouranos ... This is ... the story of Saturn's emergence as a separate power, in events synonymous with the birth of the goddess and hero.
The subject is the "first activity" of the planetary configuration. Unified heaven (proto-Saturn) gives way to differentiation.
In the Egyptian myth the birth of Shu and Tefnut from the originally inert and unified form of Atum gives rise to THREE--Re, Shu and Tefnut--Saturn, Mars and Venus in the Saturn reconstruction.
The Hindu system also presents the story of a primeval sacrifice of Unity (first form of Brahma-Prajapati) in connection with the birth of male and female principles.
Originally, the male and female powers stood in conjunction. In other words, the variants all answer directly to the Great Conjunction of Saturn's epoch, when Saturn's giant sphere, extremely close to the earth, stood behind the juxtaposed, much smaller spheres of Venus (goddess) and Mars(warrior-hero), these two orbs appearing as the luminous eye, heart, or soul of Saturn.
_The comparative approach will confirm that the severed "testicles" of Ouranos correspond to the "seed" of the Egyptian Atum, holding the goddess and hero in conjunction.
This male-female "seed"-- the_BEN_ stone--typically appears as a single eye (the goddess) together with its "pupil" (hero),
though the emerging male and female forms may also be called the "two eyes" in later elaborations of the myth.
"Castration" and "blindness" thus go together in archaic symbolism (as Jungian symbolists have already noticed).
In the Hindu system as well, the primeval conjunction of Rudra/Shiva and Sati defines the original Unity of heaven.
The original male-female seed--the BINDU--is depicted as a small circle in the center of a much larger circle.
That is the primeval condition of undifferentiated Unity: unborn goddess and hero in conjunction in the center of the vast sphere called "heaven" the gas giant proto-Saturn).
The sign for this condition is among the two or three most common symbols in the world. (It is the sign of Re, for example.)
PASSIVE SATURN/JUPITER, ACTIVE MARS
The universal sovereign (Saturn- Jupiter) tends to be a passive figure, while the goddess and hero are highly active.
In later literature the Martian figure, the warrior-hero, will appear as the servant, messenger, or assistant in the service of a great king.
BECAUSE the story was consistently localized, it was impossible for the original relationships to be maintained.
Archaically, the hero figure does not just act on behalf of the universal sovereign--he is the masculine, innermost soul of the god, the active voice going forth as a visible "command," the externalized "will" or "desire" of the sovereign.
In the margins between the most authentic (earliest) sources, and the highly fragmented (later) sources you will find both versions of the hero--i.e., both the original servant of the universal sovereign and the later "prideful," "foolish," rampaging hero acting AGAINST the sovereign, even "murdering" him. They are {the} same figures.
_Thus, comparative analysis will reveal that the Greek Eros and Ares, who appear so unlike each other, reflect the SAME archetype.
The evolution of the archetype through interpretation and storytelling, however, has taken the two figures in entirely different directions.
Eros, the visible, external will or desire of Zeus is thus seen as a little male figure on the shoulders of Zeus--exactly where we should expect him.
The poetic treatment of the Mars god Ares, however, will typically emphasize the rogue aspect--the warrior, the fool, the murderer.
The ambiguous middle zone will be occupied by Heracles, whose name was also a name for the planet Mars in Greek astronomy.
Here the poets have retained many separate traditions relating to the hero's labors on behalf of "great kings," while including as well the accounts of his murderous rampage, all the while attempting to rationalize the behavior.
_In truth, this ambiguity shows up in virtually all of the well- documented warrior gods around the world, though the chroniclers endlessly strove to separate the heroic and chaos-monster aspects by treating them as independent mythical figures. That way, one figure could represent the enemy (prototype of the devil in all his mythical forms) and the other a standard to be celebrated without ambivalence. (I will return to this tendency as soon possible, in discussing another point raised by Rens.)
ZEUS = MARS IN JUPITER
The overthrow of Kronos by Zeus refers to the same events which--through nothing more than a subtle twist of interpretation--were seen as the warrior Mars murdering or displacing the elder form of the universal sovereign Saturn.
_To this observation I would add a further principle, relating to the archetypal "birth of the hero."
(I am speaking here not of the first appearance of the hero with the differentiation of the unified sovereign,
but the RE-BIRTH of that figure in the great crisis at the conclusion of Saturn's epoch.)
Hesiod's story of the birth of Zeus (Jupiter) within a cave is really the story of the HERO "born" in the cave.
It was not Jupiter that was carried off by the goddess. It was the unborn hero, as in the universal legend.
It is the story of what happens to the masculine, innermost heart of the sovereign, as it passes from the FIRST form of the sovereign (elder god Saturn) to the SECOND(younger god Jupiter).
At this juncture, neither form of the sovereign is necessarily visible, while the externalized Martian "soul," "heart," or "will" of the sovereign--the hero--is very visible and highly active.
In these events, the focus is on the activity, the transmigrating "soul," not its more passive owner.
_Remember that in the discussion of the labyrinth motif, I noted that the entry of the hero into the cavernous labyrinth is the story of the hero's re-birth. Typically, a goddess such as Isis, pregnant with the hero, finds a secret hiding place.
These myths, I said, relate directly to the transition between Saturnian and Jovian epochs, the dissolution of a world age followed by renewal.
Theseus enters the labyrinth where he slays the hidden or imprisoned Minotaur, transcript of the archetypal Bull of Heaven, the primeval form of Saturn.
Though a lot of ground would have to be covered to make the equation clear and convincing,
there is no doubt in my mind that the archetypal "birth [i.e., rebirth] of the hero" IS the story of the passage from Saturnian to Jovian sovereignty.
MALE GODS CONFUSION
I've had some trouble understanding which gods referred to Saturn, Mars & Jupiter. Below I'm showing most of a Thoth article by Dave Talbott, which I think may best help clarify things, though the clarity seems a bit nebulous, or it comes & goes. First there was one god, Saturn. Then it was seen that god/Saturn had a spirit/Venus and a soul/Mars. Then the first god was reborn as a new god, Jupiter, and the spirit and soul returned to the new god. Eventually, the new trinity departed, but I don't know yet where that story was told, or if it wasn't told, I don't know why not.
{I guess it was in the Age of Darkness that Saturn appeared alone with a dim reddish color. After the Saturn nova Venus & Mars were in front of Saturn and appeared to be part of Saturn. Sooner or later, and Cardona seems to say it was sooner, Venus & Mars went away from the center axis becoming observable as separate entities, but eventually returning to the center and appearing to reunite with Saturn or later Jupiter. My guess so far is that the Saturn nova occurred at the Younger Dryas c. 2,600 BC, Jupiter replaced Saturn during the Burckle Crater cataclysm c. 2,300 BC, then the Jupiter train broke up during the Dead Sea cataclysm at the time of Abraham c. 1,800 BC.}
MALE GODS https://saturniancosmology.org/othergro ... otiv12.txt
By Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs, Thoth, July 31, 2000
FROM ONE GOD TO 3 GODS IN ONE
Re: Kronos and Ouranos ... This is ... the story of Saturn's emergence as a separate power, in events synonymous with the birth of the goddess and hero.
The subject is the "first activity" of the planetary configuration. Unified heaven (proto-Saturn) gives way to differentiation.
In the Egyptian myth the birth of Shu and Tefnut from the originally inert and unified form of Atum gives rise to THREE--Re, Shu and Tefnut--Saturn, Mars and Venus in the Saturn reconstruction.
The Hindu system also presents the story of a primeval sacrifice of Unity (first form of Brahma-Prajapati) in connection with the birth of male and female principles.
Originally, the male and female powers stood in conjunction. In other words, the variants all answer directly to the Great Conjunction of Saturn's epoch, when Saturn's giant sphere, extremely close to the earth, stood behind the juxtaposed, much smaller spheres of Venus (goddess) and Mars(warrior-hero), these two orbs appearing as the luminous eye, heart, or soul of Saturn.
_The comparative approach will confirm that the severed "testicles" of Ouranos correspond to the "seed" of the Egyptian Atum, holding the goddess and hero in conjunction.
This male-female "seed"-- the_BEN_ stone--typically appears as a single eye (the goddess) together with its "pupil" (hero),
though the emerging male and female forms may also be called the "two eyes" in later elaborations of the myth.
"Castration" and "blindness" thus go together in archaic symbolism (as Jungian symbolists have already noticed).
In the Hindu system as well, the primeval conjunction of Rudra/Shiva and Sati defines the original Unity of heaven.
The original male-female seed--the BINDU--is depicted as a small circle in the center of a much larger circle.
That is the primeval condition of undifferentiated Unity: unborn goddess and hero in conjunction in the center of the vast sphere called "heaven" the gas giant proto-Saturn).
The sign for this condition is among the two or three most common symbols in the world. (It is the sign of Re, for example.)
PASSIVE SATURN/JUPITER, ACTIVE MARS
The universal sovereign (Saturn- Jupiter) tends to be a passive figure, while the goddess and hero are highly active.
In later literature the Martian figure, the warrior-hero, will appear as the servant, messenger, or assistant in the service of a great king.
BECAUSE the story was consistently localized, it was impossible for the original relationships to be maintained.
Archaically, the hero figure does not just act on behalf of the universal sovereign--he is the masculine, innermost soul of the god, the active voice going forth as a visible "command," the externalized "will" or "desire" of the sovereign.
In the margins between the most authentic (earliest) sources, and the highly fragmented (later) sources you will find both versions of the hero--i.e., both the original servant of the universal sovereign and the later "prideful," "foolish," rampaging hero acting AGAINST the sovereign, even "murdering" him. They are {the} same figures.
_Thus, comparative analysis will reveal that the Greek Eros and Ares, who appear so unlike each other, reflect the SAME archetype.
The evolution of the archetype through interpretation and storytelling, however, has taken the two figures in entirely different directions.
Eros, the visible, external will or desire of Zeus is thus seen as a little male figure on the shoulders of Zeus--exactly where we should expect him.
The poetic treatment of the Mars god Ares, however, will typically emphasize the rogue aspect--the warrior, the fool, the murderer.
The ambiguous middle zone will be occupied by Heracles, whose name was also a name for the planet Mars in Greek astronomy.
Here the poets have retained many separate traditions relating to the hero's labors on behalf of "great kings," while including as well the accounts of his murderous rampage, all the while attempting to rationalize the behavior.
_In truth, this ambiguity shows up in virtually all of the well- documented warrior gods around the world, though the chroniclers endlessly strove to separate the heroic and chaos-monster aspects by treating them as independent mythical figures. That way, one figure could represent the enemy (prototype of the devil in all his mythical forms) and the other a standard to be celebrated without ambivalence. (I will return to this tendency as soon possible, in discussing another point raised by Rens.)
ZEUS = MARS IN JUPITER
The overthrow of Kronos by Zeus refers to the same events which--through nothing more than a subtle twist of interpretation--were seen as the warrior Mars murdering or displacing the elder form of the universal sovereign Saturn.
_To this observation I would add a further principle, relating to the archetypal "birth of the hero."
(I am speaking here not of the first appearance of the hero with the differentiation of the unified sovereign,
but the RE-BIRTH of that figure in the great crisis at the conclusion of Saturn's epoch.)
Hesiod's story of the birth of Zeus (Jupiter) within a cave is really the story of the HERO "born" in the cave.
It was not Jupiter that was carried off by the goddess. It was the unborn hero, as in the universal legend.
It is the story of what happens to the masculine, innermost heart of the sovereign, as it passes from the FIRST form of the sovereign (elder god Saturn) to the SECOND(younger god Jupiter).
At this juncture, neither form of the sovereign is necessarily visible, while the externalized Martian "soul," "heart," or "will" of the sovereign--the hero--is very visible and highly active.
In these events, the focus is on the activity, the transmigrating "soul," not its more passive owner.
_Remember that in the discussion of the labyrinth motif, I noted that the entry of the hero into the cavernous labyrinth is the story of the hero's re-birth. Typically, a goddess such as Isis, pregnant with the hero, finds a secret hiding place.
These myths, I said, relate directly to the transition between Saturnian and Jovian epochs, the dissolution of a world age followed by renewal.
Theseus enters the labyrinth where he slays the hidden or imprisoned Minotaur, transcript of the archetypal Bull of Heaven, the primeval form of Saturn.
Though a lot of ground would have to be covered to make the equation clear and convincing,
there is no doubt in my mind that the archetypal "birth [i.e., rebirth] of the hero" IS the story of the passage from Saturnian to Jovian sovereignty.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Allyn said he doesn't think there was an Ice Age or sea level changes. My online book has a chapter on the Ice Age at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... he-ice-age . I just added an update to it at the bottom showing a map of eskers and moraines deposited under the North American ice sheet. There are similar features in Scandinavia where there was another ice sheet. There's a section in that chapter called RISING SEA LEVEL STRANDED MAMMOTHS ON ISLANDS. Mammoths and other megafauna were able to graze out to what later became islands far north of Siberia until rapid sea level rise due to rapid melting of the ice sheets due to cataclysms stranded some of them on the islands. The whole book is at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/cataclys ... th-history .
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
PS, the Ice Age apparently only lasted about 700 years and it was only severe for the last few centuries of that time. The Younger Dryas, the coldest period, lasted a few decades at the end of the Ice Age. And the Ice Age started after the Great Flood, c. 3,300 BC. Impacts on the Ice Sheet caused secondary impacts on the eastern half of the U.S., obliterating nearly all animal life there, and meltwater floods and volcanism etc wiped out most of the rest of the megafauna elsewhere. There are many lakes at the northern tip of Alaska close together, almost similar to the Carolina Bays, but I read lately that such depressions can form when large chunks of glacial ice get buried under sediment and then melt. The only way that would be likely to occur is if there were big floods with a lot of large chunks of ice and thick sediment in the floodwater.
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nick c
- Posts: 3002
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
The megafauna extinction took place after 1500 BC. These animals survived the Ice Age and lived into the hipsithermal. The final extinction probably took place around 1000 to 800 BC at the same time as the world saw the great desertification with the appearance of the Sahara, Arabian, Gobi deserts as well as climate change in Mesopotamia and India.
source: The Extinction of the Mammoth, Ginenthal
source: The Extinction of the Mammoth, Ginenthal
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
313324
VS. VERY SHORT CHRONOLOGY
Nick said:
Ginenthal, Heinsohn, Rose & Sweeney favor a Very Short Chronology. I have copies of these articles which critique that Chronology.
____EC, RETROCALCULATIONS [MavSci]
____DC, The Two Sargons and Their Successors (PART ONE) [Aeon]
____DC, The Two Sargons and Their Successors (Part II) [Aeon]
____DC, A Return to the Two Sargons and Their Successors [Aeon]
____DC, Alalakh and the Collon Affair [Aeon]
____EC, Heinsohn's Ancient "History" [Aeon]
____DC, Bouquets and Brickbats: A Reply to Martin Sieff [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
____DC, Pillars of Straw [Aeon]
____TP, Science, Technology and the Chronology of the Ancient World [Aeon]
____EC, Velikovsky and the Problem of Planetary Identification [Aeon]
____EC, {PILLARS OF CG}
____JB, Finding the Limits of Chronological Revision [SIS Review]
____DC, Velikovsky's Martian Catastrophes [Aeon]
____DC, Antiquated Textbooks: Redesigning the Solar System [Aeon]
Below are excerpts from RETROCALCULATIONS, Pillars of Straw and Science, Technology and ...
RETROCALCULATIONS
https://www.maverickscience.com/wp-cont ... ations.pdf
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... chronology
Pillars of Straw
_From: Aeon Volume VI, Number 6 Dwardu Cardona.
_From: Aeon Volume VI, Number 6. Thoughts on Charles Ginenthal's Pillars of the Past, Trevor Palmer.
VS. VERY SHORT CHRONOLOGY
Nick said:
What's the main evidence for giant mammals extinctions having occurred after 1,500 BC?The megafauna extinction took place after 1500 BC. These animals survived the Ice Age and lived into the hipsithermal. The final extinction probably took place around 1000 to 800 BC at the same time as the world saw the great desertification with the appearance of the Sahara, Arabian, Gobi deserts as well as climate change in Mesopotamia and India.
source: The Extinction of the Mammoth, Ginenthal
Ginenthal, Heinsohn, Rose & Sweeney favor a Very Short Chronology. I have copies of these articles which critique that Chronology.
____EC, RETROCALCULATIONS [MavSci]
____DC, The Two Sargons and Their Successors (PART ONE) [Aeon]
____DC, The Two Sargons and Their Successors (Part II) [Aeon]
____DC, A Return to the Two Sargons and Their Successors [Aeon]
____DC, Alalakh and the Collon Affair [Aeon]
____EC, Heinsohn's Ancient "History" [Aeon]
____DC, Bouquets and Brickbats: A Reply to Martin Sieff [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
____DC, Pillars of Straw [Aeon]
____TP, Science, Technology and the Chronology of the Ancient World [Aeon]
____EC, Velikovsky and the Problem of Planetary Identification [Aeon]
____EC, {PILLARS OF CG}
____JB, Finding the Limits of Chronological Revision [SIS Review]
____DC, Velikovsky's Martian Catastrophes [Aeon]
____DC, Antiquated Textbooks: Redesigning the Solar System [Aeon]
Below are excerpts from RETROCALCULATIONS, Pillars of Straw and Science, Technology and ...
RETROCALCULATIONS
https://www.maverickscience.com/wp-cont ... ations.pdf
REVISED ANCIENT CHRONOLOGY... How, then, can we arrive at a secure means for dating a particular king or civilization? For the purposes of illustration, let’s consider the reign of Nebuchadnezzar, one of the most famous kings of all antiquity, singled out in the Old Testament for his cruelty and for leading the Jews away into captivity (II Kings 25:1-21). Nebuchadnezzar’s relative place in history is securely attested by the numerous documents that have come down to us from this period. The so-called canon of Ptolemy, for example, provides a complete list of kings from the time of Nabonassar (746 BCE) to Antonius Pius (138-161 AD). There Nebuchadnezzar appears as the 16th king of Babylon after Nabonassar. As it turns out, the accuracy of Ptolemy’s canon can be confirmed at every step and in great detail. As Carl Jonsson has shown in a masterful summary of the available evidence, a variety of king lists, chronicles, economic transactions, and astronomical documents from ancient Babylon and elsewhere all serve to confirm the reign#lengths of the kings from Nebuchadnezzar’s time until the time of Alexander the Great (see C. O. Jonsson, “The Foundations of the Assyro-Babylonian Chronology,” Chronology and Catastrophism Review 9, pp. 14-23).
... If the celestial order described by Nebuchadnezzar’s royal astronomers is unique to that period — and it is — the odds are literally astronomical that astronomers’ computer-aided retrocalculations would produce the very date (-567 BCE) otherwise assigned this ruler by historians working solely with the historical records. Even more improbable are the odds that the respective reigns of Nebuchadnezzar, Artaxerxes I, Alexander the Great and various other kings mentioned in these documents would likewise conform with the very order and dates deduced by historians. Impossible in fact.
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... chronology
Pillars of Straw
_From: Aeon Volume VI, Number 6 Dwardu Cardona.
Science, Technology and the Chronology of the Ancient World{AGREED: EGYPTIAN HISTORY IS TOO LONG.}
... Ginenthal and I have been acquainted with each other for quite some years. Despite that, it seems he does not know me very well. This is indicated when, more than once, he accuses me of upholding "the established chronology" of ancient history. [1] Where, if I may ask, has Ginenthal ever seen or heard me state such a thing? Just because I do not agree with the chronological revisions of ancient history that the revisionists he champions have concocted does not mean that I accept "the established chronology." In fact, I do not and have never done so. Like Ginenthal and others, I, too, deem Egyptian history as presently "established" to be far too long. Like Ginenthal and others, I, too, believe that the various dark ages which have been foisted on ancient Near Eastern history by Egyptologists to have been non-existent. Like Ginenthal and others, I, too, would shorten ancient Near Eastern history. And, like Ginenthal and others, I, too, realize that this cannot be done until Egyptian history itself is shortened. But not by the amount that Ginenthal would have us believe. The problem here is that shortening ancient history is one thing; how it is done is quite another. And, personally, I have not yet been satisfied that current revisionists - those whom Ginenthal champions as well as those he does not - have done a good job.
{SHORT CHRONOLOGY THEORISTS DISAGREE WITH EACH OTHER.}
... Ginenthal, of course, swears mainly by the revisionist attempts of Velikovsky, Rose, Heinsohn, and Sweeney. One can safely say they are his heroes. But there is no consensus among them either. Lynn Rose, for instance, thinks highly of Gunnar Heinsohn's revision of ancient history, [12] except, of course, when it tends to step on his own toes - the subject of calendrics. Thus, following more than a page in which he lauds Heinsohn's method in what can be considered his opus magnum, Rose ends up with the following remarks: "On the other hand, Heinsohn may be committing too much to the flames. His focus on stratigraphy leaves him with many serious blind spots concerning matters that seem to him to lie out at some irrelevant periphery. Thus he tends to dismiss without further thought or investigation any considerations that are brought to him from the fields of calendrology or astronomy....[13] What this indicates is that even Ginenthal's own revisionist heroes are not all of one mind. He cannot, therefore, blame me for not adhering to any of these reconstructions. But that is not to say that I adhere to the orthodox scheme....
_From: Aeon Volume VI, Number 6. Thoughts on Charles Ginenthal's Pillars of the Past, Trevor Palmer.
... Ginenthal accepts the orthodox interpretation of the Senusret III inscription but, disregarding archaeological evidence for the relative positioning of sequences in the orthodox chronology, whatever the precise dates, he follows Lynn Rose in moving forward the entire Middle Kingdom by 1477 years, approximately an entire Sothic cycle, to make the 7th year of Senusret III 395 BC. This is because observations of the lunar cycle from the reign of Senusret III fit this date better than 1872 BC. It also brings the Middle Kingdom within the range of the Heinsohn-Sweeney short chronology. [13] ... Ginenthal adds that Rose has "solved the problem" of reconciling Sothic dating with lunar observations, but the reality is somewhat different. What Rose has done is provide one possible solution. ... David Lappin pointed out in 2002 that the lunar observations in the time of Senusret III are consistent with his reign commencing in 1698 BC, which fits in with the "New Chronology" of David Rohl and his collaborators.
... In any case, how could inscriptions from the 18th and 19th Dynasties have referred to 12th and 13th Dynasty rulers, as they appear to do, if Rose is correct in his belief that these came later in time?
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
313351
JUPITER HAS NO PART IN THE SATURN MODEL
I contacted Ev Cochrane on his website https://MaverickScience.com regarding the Saturn Myth. Following are my questions and his answers. I've been confused about how the Saturn train broke up and evolved into the Jupiter train, but now it looks like there was no Jupiter train, if Ev is correct. If Jupiter was not involved, then how did Dave Talbott find ancient depictions of a banded sphere that he said resembled Jupiter? And if Saturn departed and appeared to be replaced by another planet, if that planet wasn't Jupiter, was it Mars instead? And if Jupiter didn't escort the inner planets to their present orbits, did Saturn do so? Otherwise, how did the Earth go from the orbit of Saturn to its present orbit without the whole Earth freezing over?
SATURN FLARE AT YOUNGER DRYAS?
LK-1: Message: Hi Ev. I have some questions for you. I've been working on the Saturn Myth, trying to determine which celestial events occurred with which Earth cataclysms. In the past year I found that Cardona's books seem to put the Saturn nova and "creation" at the Younger Dryas, with the Golden Age following (and the Age of Darkness apparently preceding the Younger Dryas). Do you think he was right about that?
CARDONA CONFUSED ROLES
EC-1: To answer your questions: I have no help for you on the first question vis a vis Cardona's thesis on the Younger Dryas. That is not my area of research/expertise. But I have grave doubts about his whole reconstruction (he consistently confused the Mars/Venus events with supposed Saturn events).
JUPITER'S ROLE
LK-2A: I know that Dave Talbott concluded that Jupiter replaced Saturn at the end of the Golden Age. I don't see anything on your website or in your articles that discusses Jupiter replacing Saturn. Do you agree with Dave on that? I think you said somewhere that Marduk was Saturn, and I think Cardona said Osiris was Saturn, but Dave said those were Jupiter in the following: From Myth to a Physical Model By Dave Talbott, Aeon Oct 1993 ... Primeval Sun God. Now the flowering of commemorative Sun-symbolism does not make the mythical "sun god" different from those figures of the creator-king whose saga was celebrated every New Year. An and Marduk, Atum-Ra and Osiris, El and Yahweh, Zurvan and Ahura Mazda, Kronos and Zeus, Saturn and Jupiter. It is impossible not to notice that the elder figure is continually associated with Saturn and the younger with Jupiter. ... Note in the image of Zeus (Jupiter) placed on the cover of A. B. Cook's book, Zeus, that the bands constitute the primary design motif and are distinguished by the very elements expected. Zeus (Jupiter) (I should add that in the cover illustration, which cannot be fully duplicated in black and white, the dress of Zeus is further enhanced by spots or dabs of gold.) It occurred to me that in Egypt all of the key images of the age of the gods, in addition to countless well-developed human and zoomorphic depictions, found pictographic representation in simpler, more literal forms. So I wondered if there was an elementary hieroglyphic representation of the banded Jupiter, perhaps in connection with the "youthful" or re-born sun god. Among hundreds of hieroglyphs there is only one that fits the image of a banded sphere. In the writing system, it is the glyph for the kh-sound: Enigmatic Egyptian Glyph. ... the glyph is employed with the determinative for "high" or "to be high" ... {and} combined with the determinative for "babe," "boy," "child," "youth." So do you disagree with Dave there? I think you said somewhere that Zeus was Mars.
LK-2B: Do you agree with Dave in the following? And here are excerpts from MALE GODS By Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs, Thoth, July 31, 2000 {Rens} ... When Zeus kills Kronos we envision the Mars God as Inner Soul overcoming the Golden Age God. The soul, i. e. Venus with Mars, subsequently reenters another body, notably the planet Jupiter, and in this way the same Zeus is said to have achieved kingship. {Dave} ... Rens is correct here. This is not the parricide myth. It is the story of Saturn\'s emergence as a separate power, in events synonymous with the birth of the goddess and hero. The subject is the "first activity" of the planetary configuration. Unified heaven (proto-Saturn) gives way to differentiation. In the Egyptian myth the birth of Shu and Tefnut from the originally inert and unified form of Atum gives rise to THREE--Re, Shu and Tefnut--Saturn, Mars and Venus in the Saturn reconstruction.
JUPITER HAD NO ROLE
EC-2A: I do not agree with Dave that Jupiter replaced Saturn. Dave's reasoning was valid, but it relies on very late sources (Greek and Roman). You mentioned his article in Aeon: I regard that article as an all-time classic. Vintage Dave. I spent several years trying to track down his sources and/or reasoning. I could not find anything that supported his conclusions (that Jupiter was depicted in the Egyptian kh-glyph). If you are familiar with Dave's earliest writings in Network, you will remember that he early on argued that Horus was Jupiter and that he was the child-hero of ancient myth, employing many of the same arguments as in this Aeon article. But Horus was not Jupiter: He was Mars. Dave eventually realized this and offered some brilliant arguments in this regard (remember his classic Warrior Hero article). But for one reason or another, this new-found revelation never led him to revise his earlier beliefs about Jupiter. Without Horus as Jupiter, Dave's entire argument falls to the ground. Horus was the child-hero; Horus was the child at Venus's breast (hard to imagine about the massive Jupiter); Horus was the King of the Gods; Horus is the god consistently identified as a "youth" (Egyptian hwn and h'). And what is true of Horus is true of the Vedic Indra and sundry other analogous gods, all of whom Dave eventually agreed were Mars.
EC-2B: I have never seen the article "Male Gods," so I will not comment on that thesis.
END OF GOLDEN AGE AT 2,300 BC?
LK-3: {Moe} Mandelkehr thought there was a major cataclysm c. 2300 BC. Do you think that could have been the end of the Golden Age? An Australian geologist said Burckle Crater in the Indian Ocean apparently caused tsunamis that swept over the Sahara maybe around that time. If so, could the reign of Jupiter have lasted until the time of Abraham and Lot with the Dead Sea catastrophe? Dave Talbott thought Jupiter may have gone close to the orbit of Venus before retreating to its present orbit. Do you agree?
GOLDEN AGE ENDED BEFORE PYRAMID TEXTS
EC-3: {Moe} Mandelkehr's thesis can never be made to square with that of Dave and myself. As you state, Mo pointed to an event that supposedly happened circa 2300 BCE. I see little or no evidence for such an event. In any case, that is the very time the pyramids were being built (Unis's, for example, the one with the Pyramid Texts). There is simply no way to place the Golden Age or any of the major cataclysms that late as they are already mentioned in the Pyramid Texts written before that!!!!! Finally, since we have yet to determine any role for Jupiter in the polar configuration, I see no reason to speculate that it ever moved in the inner solar system. Hope this helps address your questions. Thanks much for your continued interest in our ideas.
JUPITER HAS NO PART IN THE SATURN MODEL
I contacted Ev Cochrane on his website https://MaverickScience.com regarding the Saturn Myth. Following are my questions and his answers. I've been confused about how the Saturn train broke up and evolved into the Jupiter train, but now it looks like there was no Jupiter train, if Ev is correct. If Jupiter was not involved, then how did Dave Talbott find ancient depictions of a banded sphere that he said resembled Jupiter? And if Saturn departed and appeared to be replaced by another planet, if that planet wasn't Jupiter, was it Mars instead? And if Jupiter didn't escort the inner planets to their present orbits, did Saturn do so? Otherwise, how did the Earth go from the orbit of Saturn to its present orbit without the whole Earth freezing over?
SATURN FLARE AT YOUNGER DRYAS?
LK-1: Message: Hi Ev. I have some questions for you. I've been working on the Saturn Myth, trying to determine which celestial events occurred with which Earth cataclysms. In the past year I found that Cardona's books seem to put the Saturn nova and "creation" at the Younger Dryas, with the Golden Age following (and the Age of Darkness apparently preceding the Younger Dryas). Do you think he was right about that?
CARDONA CONFUSED ROLES
EC-1: To answer your questions: I have no help for you on the first question vis a vis Cardona's thesis on the Younger Dryas. That is not my area of research/expertise. But I have grave doubts about his whole reconstruction (he consistently confused the Mars/Venus events with supposed Saturn events).
JUPITER'S ROLE
LK-2A: I know that Dave Talbott concluded that Jupiter replaced Saturn at the end of the Golden Age. I don't see anything on your website or in your articles that discusses Jupiter replacing Saturn. Do you agree with Dave on that? I think you said somewhere that Marduk was Saturn, and I think Cardona said Osiris was Saturn, but Dave said those were Jupiter in the following: From Myth to a Physical Model By Dave Talbott, Aeon Oct 1993 ... Primeval Sun God. Now the flowering of commemorative Sun-symbolism does not make the mythical "sun god" different from those figures of the creator-king whose saga was celebrated every New Year. An and Marduk, Atum-Ra and Osiris, El and Yahweh, Zurvan and Ahura Mazda, Kronos and Zeus, Saturn and Jupiter. It is impossible not to notice that the elder figure is continually associated with Saturn and the younger with Jupiter. ... Note in the image of Zeus (Jupiter) placed on the cover of A. B. Cook's book, Zeus, that the bands constitute the primary design motif and are distinguished by the very elements expected. Zeus (Jupiter) (I should add that in the cover illustration, which cannot be fully duplicated in black and white, the dress of Zeus is further enhanced by spots or dabs of gold.) It occurred to me that in Egypt all of the key images of the age of the gods, in addition to countless well-developed human and zoomorphic depictions, found pictographic representation in simpler, more literal forms. So I wondered if there was an elementary hieroglyphic representation of the banded Jupiter, perhaps in connection with the "youthful" or re-born sun god. Among hundreds of hieroglyphs there is only one that fits the image of a banded sphere. In the writing system, it is the glyph for the kh-sound: Enigmatic Egyptian Glyph. ... the glyph is employed with the determinative for "high" or "to be high" ... {and} combined with the determinative for "babe," "boy," "child," "youth." So do you disagree with Dave there? I think you said somewhere that Zeus was Mars.
LK-2B: Do you agree with Dave in the following? And here are excerpts from MALE GODS By Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs, Thoth, July 31, 2000 {Rens} ... When Zeus kills Kronos we envision the Mars God as Inner Soul overcoming the Golden Age God. The soul, i. e. Venus with Mars, subsequently reenters another body, notably the planet Jupiter, and in this way the same Zeus is said to have achieved kingship. {Dave} ... Rens is correct here. This is not the parricide myth. It is the story of Saturn\'s emergence as a separate power, in events synonymous with the birth of the goddess and hero. The subject is the "first activity" of the planetary configuration. Unified heaven (proto-Saturn) gives way to differentiation. In the Egyptian myth the birth of Shu and Tefnut from the originally inert and unified form of Atum gives rise to THREE--Re, Shu and Tefnut--Saturn, Mars and Venus in the Saturn reconstruction.
JUPITER HAD NO ROLE
EC-2A: I do not agree with Dave that Jupiter replaced Saturn. Dave's reasoning was valid, but it relies on very late sources (Greek and Roman). You mentioned his article in Aeon: I regard that article as an all-time classic. Vintage Dave. I spent several years trying to track down his sources and/or reasoning. I could not find anything that supported his conclusions (that Jupiter was depicted in the Egyptian kh-glyph). If you are familiar with Dave's earliest writings in Network, you will remember that he early on argued that Horus was Jupiter and that he was the child-hero of ancient myth, employing many of the same arguments as in this Aeon article. But Horus was not Jupiter: He was Mars. Dave eventually realized this and offered some brilliant arguments in this regard (remember his classic Warrior Hero article). But for one reason or another, this new-found revelation never led him to revise his earlier beliefs about Jupiter. Without Horus as Jupiter, Dave's entire argument falls to the ground. Horus was the child-hero; Horus was the child at Venus's breast (hard to imagine about the massive Jupiter); Horus was the King of the Gods; Horus is the god consistently identified as a "youth" (Egyptian hwn and h'). And what is true of Horus is true of the Vedic Indra and sundry other analogous gods, all of whom Dave eventually agreed were Mars.
EC-2B: I have never seen the article "Male Gods," so I will not comment on that thesis.
END OF GOLDEN AGE AT 2,300 BC?
LK-3: {Moe} Mandelkehr thought there was a major cataclysm c. 2300 BC. Do you think that could have been the end of the Golden Age? An Australian geologist said Burckle Crater in the Indian Ocean apparently caused tsunamis that swept over the Sahara maybe around that time. If so, could the reign of Jupiter have lasted until the time of Abraham and Lot with the Dead Sea catastrophe? Dave Talbott thought Jupiter may have gone close to the orbit of Venus before retreating to its present orbit. Do you agree?
GOLDEN AGE ENDED BEFORE PYRAMID TEXTS
EC-3: {Moe} Mandelkehr's thesis can never be made to square with that of Dave and myself. As you state, Mo pointed to an event that supposedly happened circa 2300 BCE. I see little or no evidence for such an event. In any case, that is the very time the pyramids were being built (Unis's, for example, the one with the Pyramid Texts). There is simply no way to place the Golden Age or any of the major cataclysms that late as they are already mentioned in the Pyramid Texts written before that!!!!! Finally, since we have yet to determine any role for Jupiter in the polar configuration, I see no reason to speculate that it ever moved in the inner solar system. Hope this helps address your questions. Thanks much for your continued interest in our ideas.
-
nick c
- Posts: 3002
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
That is the theme of The Extinction of the Mammoth by Ginenthal.Lloyd wrote:What's the main evidence for giant mammals extinctions having occurred after 1,500 BC?
The author methodically demolishes the mainstream positions:
-that primitive human hunters caused the extinction of the megafauna (Blitzkreig hypothesis)
-that the mammoths lived in an Arctic climate (where their carcasses are currently found) and became extinct at the end of the Ice Age
-that there was something called "the Mammoth Steppe" which was somehow a warm strip of grassland encircling much of the pole, which had a more hospitable climate during the Ice Age
-Then the book focuses on the evidence that there were two pole shifts (involving a change to the Earth's inclination to the ecliptic) and that the final extinction and desertification of the Earth took place from the period of 1500 BC to 800 BC.
I am not going to go into detail here, the book is available digitally in Kindle or Nook at a reasonable price. Also, hard copies are more difficult to come by but used book sellers and ebay have them but that is hit or miss. I think on other posts on this thread I made some points about RC dating of mammoths revealing different results for different parts of the Mammoth, varve dates contradicting RC dates and supporting a recent extinction, and wood from trees that cannot grow in the Arctic today being found in strata associated with mammoth carcasses, stomach contents showing plants that cannot grow in the Arctic today, an 18th Dynasty (Egypt) tomb painting of what is unmistakably a wooly mammoth, mollusks remains in the Arctic Ocean of creatures that cannot live there today, and so on.
With regard to the recent post listing all the criticisms of the revised chronology of Heinsohn, Rose, and Ginenthal; I don't have time to look up all the responses to those points. If you took the time to find those criticisms then perhaps you should take the time to read responses by Ginenthal and Rose?
Here is an incomplete list of reading material dealing with responses to critics:
"Answering Critics", The Velikovskian, Vol VII #1....
P82-117 "Trevor Palmer's Critique of Pillars of the Past;
P118-121 "Ev Cochrane, 'Beside the Point'"
P122-140 "Arguments of Straw: Dwardu Cardona and Pillars of the Past"
"A Review of Well's Review of Sun, Moon, and Sothis" Lynn Rose.. Aeon Vol VI #5
"A Review of Spallinger's Review of Sun, Moon, and Sothis" Lynn Rose...The Velikovskian Vol V #3
"Anthony Spallinger's Review of Sun, Moon, and Sothis" Charles Ginenthal The Velikovskian Vol V #3
Also, Pillars of the Past is a 4 Volume work. Volumes 2 and 3 deal in detail with criticisms of that work. There is also a detailed critique of Rohl's chronology which I believe is in Volume 3, but will have to get back to you on that if your are interested.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Yes, Nick, I'd like to see the detailed critique of Rohl.
You referenced The Velikovskian Vo. VII, but I can't find that. Below is all I can find so far.
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=12
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 1: Contents
A Word about the Planetary Debate Irving Wolfe Page 7
Reflections of the Persian Wars Charles Ginenthal Page 16
Ancient Near Eastern Chronology ... Gunnar Heinsohn Page 27
Calendars Revisited Lynn E. Rose Page 3
Indeterminacy: Temporary, Permanent or Indefinite? Roger W. Wescott Page 53
The Moon in Upheaval Charles Ginenthal Page 56
In the Beginning- A Review Charles Ginenthal Page 102
Pseudo-Scientists, Cranks, Crackpots and Henry Bauer Charles Ginenthal Page 107
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 2: Contents
Common Sense about Ancient Maps Charles Ginenthal Page 7
Dark Matter Charles Ginenthal Page 18
William H. Stiebing, Jr. and ... Velikovsky Charles Ginenthal Page 38
Comparing Magnetic Fields: Neptune and Uranus Charles Ginenthal Page 80
Is Space a Superconducting Medium? Charles Ginenthal Page 101
Velikovsky's "The Dark Age of Greece" Clark Whelton Page 103
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 3: Contents
James Hutton: A Non-Inductive, Theological Catastrophist Charles Ginenthal Page 7
Puzzles of Prehistory Roger W. Wescott Page 19
Proof of ... Celestial Counterforce to Gravity Charles Ginenthal Page 32
Measurements of the Electromagnetic Properties of "Space" George R. Talbott and Charles Ginenthal Page 37
The Nature of Venus' Heat Charles Ginenthal Page 56
Revisiting the Temperature of Venus George R. Talbott Page 95
The Cornell Lecture: Sagan on a Wednesday Lynn E. Rose Page 101
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 4: Contents
Giants in the Earth Ted Holden Page 7
Point-Counterpoint The Method of Science James E. Oberg Page 18
Oberg's Unscientific Method Charles ... Page 24
Checking the Checkered Checker George R. Talbott Page 78
Hardy, Tess and Psychic Scotoma Duane Leroy Vorhees Page 82
Reviews Grain collection: Human's Natural Ecological Niche- A Review Roger W. Wescott Page 87
Before the Day Breaks- A Perspective Charles Ginenthal Page 92
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 1: Contents
Mind and Its Methods: A Reflection on Neurotic Science Antoinette Mann Paterson Page 7
Scientists, Journalists and Editors as Suppressors Charles ... Page 13
sTARBABY Dennis Rawlins Page 17 Scientific Dating Methods in Ruins Charles Ginenthal Page 50
Reviews Early History of the Israelite People: Biblical Fundamentalism in History (I ) Gunnar Heinsohn Page 80
Early History of the Israelite People: Biblical Fundamentalism in History (II) Gunnar Heinsohn Page 88
The Emerging Revision of Ancient History: Recent Research Martin Sieff Page 94
Books by the Author: George Robert Talbott Page 102
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 2: Contents
Interviewing Immanuel Velikovsky: An Introduction Robert Nichols Page 7
CHZ and Solar System Stability Charles Ginenthal Page 34
Point-Counterpoint Old World Maps ... A Response to Charles Ginenthal Norman Schwarz Page 46
Analysis of Old World Maps Charles Ginenthal Page 52
Trisms and Planetary Iconography Charles Raspil Page 55
Scientists, Journalists and Editors as Suppressors (Part II) Charles Ginenthal Page 88
Books by the Author: George Robert Talbott Page 107
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 3: Contents
June 15, 762 BCE: A Mathematical Analysis of Ancient History Robert T. Russell Page 7
The Kensington Runestone, John ... and The Skeptical Inquirer (Part I) Alice Miller Page 70
The Kensington Runestone, John Whittaker and The Skeptical Inquirer (Part II) Alice Miller Page 78
The Origin of the Moon Charles Ginenthal Page 89
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 4: Contents
The Flood Page Charles Ginenthal Page 7
A Lowered Chronology for the Twelfth Dynasty Lynn E. Rose Page 46
Ice Core Evidence ... Ginenthal Page 53
Spatters and Planetary Iconography Charles Raspil Page 91
Response to Raspil Charles Ginenthal Page 121
Resubscription Notice Page 45a
The Velikovsky Conference Page 45b
The Velikovskian Vol. III, No. 1: Contents
Cyrus and the Mardian/Amardian Dethroner of the -6th Century Medes and Aziru the Martu/Amurru (Amorite ... Dethroner of the -14th Century Mitanni, by Gunnar Heinsohn
The Origin of Craters on the Moon and Large Lunar Boulders by Charles Ginenthal
Sagan on the Run, The Florida State Lecture: Sagan on a Wednesday Night by John Godowski
By Eva Danelius: The Identification of the Biblical "Queen of Sheba" with Hatshepsut, "Queen of Egypt and Ethiopia" Did Thutmose III Despoil The Temple in Jerusalem? Ancient Myths and Legends of the African Bantu People by Cecily Marchesi
The Papyrus Ipuwer, Egyptian Version of the Plagues - A New Perspective by Henry Zecher
The Velikovskian Vol. III, No. 2 & 3: Contents
The Problem of the Extinction. The Age of Man in America. The Hunting or Blitzkreig Theory ... The Climate Hypothesis.
Arctic Tundra: Mammoth Steppe or Velikovskian Poleshift? The Environment and Preservation of the Mammoth.
Radiocarbon Dating the Extinction. Poleshift. Uniformitarian or Catastrophist?
Ice Age Theory. Poleshifts, Catastrophes and Myths. Did the mammoth live in Alaska and Siberia during the Ice Age?
The Velikovskian Vol. III, No. 4: Contents
Thales: The First Astronomer, William Mullen.
Paradise and Disaster in T.S . Eliot's "Four ... ", Roger W. Wescott.
Quantalism and Prehistory, Roger W. Wescott.
The History of the Revisionist Debate: A Personal View, Martin Sieff.
The Hyksos Pyramid Builders, Emmet J. Sweeney.
Confessions of a Philosophical Velikovskian, Hugo Meynell.
Sagan's Pseudo-sagacity: Style as a Reflection of Character, Hugh M. Martin.
Carl Sagan Exposed, Charles Ginenthal.
The Wayward Sun, Rand and Rose Flam-Ath.
Scientific American and Owen Gingerich on Velikovsky, Charles Ginenthal.
Stephen J. Gould and Immanuel Velikovsky, Essays in the Continuing Velikovsky Affair, edited by Dale Ann Pearlman, Reviewed by Hugo Meynell.
Phobos and Deimos, Lynn E. Rose.
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 1: Contents
Ocean Sediments, Circumpolar Muck, Erratics, Buried Forests, and Loess as Evidence of Global Floods, Charles ... .
The Oceans Arctic Muck Erratics Buried Forests Loess
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 2: Contents
Metamorphic Evolution, Charles Ginenthal
Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, by Richard Milton; Reviewed by Roger W. ...
The Relevance of the Velikovksy Scenario to the Homeric Question, Hugo Meynell
Reviewing Velikovsky's Venus and Mars Theories, Donald W. Patten
A Tale of Two Venuses, Charles Ginenthal
Chain Reactions -A Victory for Mars, Lynn E. Rose
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 3: Contents
Contents The Electro-Gravitic Theory of Celestial Motion
The Electro-Gravitic Theory of Cosmology
Origin and Evolution of Galaxies Origin and ... of Stars
Origin and Evolution of Solar Systems
Conclusion: Entropy Appendix: Measurements Of The Electromagnetic Properties Of "space"
The Electro-Gravitic Theory of Celestial Motion & Cosmology
(A Special Issue of The Velikovskian, by Charles Ginenthal)
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 4: Contents
Sean Mewhinney's Critique Based on Bombastic Subterfuge, Evasion and Denial Hyprocrisy
Ice Cores or Crystalline Spheres
Oxygen ... Layers, Snow Layering or Diffusion Layering
Corroboration or Disconformation of Ice Cores from Volacanic Material in Ice
Varves as Corroboration or Disconformation of Ice Cores
Heinrich Layers and the Greenland Ice Cores
Dendrochronology and Varves and Greenland Ice Cores vis a vis The Younger Days
Ice Modeling vs. Reality
Contradiction between the Different Ice Cores
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 1: Contents
[PDF] The Aristotelian Cosmos by Charles Ginenthal [PDF]
Were the Hitites Lydians? By Emmet Sweeney ... PDF]
The Periodic Cyclicism of Ancient Catastrophes by Donal W. Patten [PDF]
Propaganda and Scientific History by Charles Ginenthal [PDF]
The Bible Myth, Reviewed by Lynn E. Rose [PDF]
"The Subject of Defamation", a letter by George Robert Talbott [PDF]
Sean Mewhinney's Missing Subglacial Topography By Charles Ginenthal
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 2: Contents
"Ramessides, Medes and Persians" by Emmet J. Sweeney Introduction [PDF]
Chapter 1: Distorting ... Reconstructing the Past [PDF] Stratigraphy and Chronology; The Medes; The Chaldeans; The Lydians; The Scythians
Chapter 2: Bringing Light to a Dark Age [PDF] A Problem and a Solution; Ramessides and Neo-Assyrian; The Neo-Hittites of Syria; Malatya and Karatepe; Carchemish and its Remains; The Sukhis Dynasty
Chapter 3: The Great Kingship of the Medes [PDF] Mitanni and Middle Assyrians; The Median Kingdom of Assyria; Shalmaneser III Battles Suppiluliumas; Sardanapalus; The Kingdom of Urartu; The Chaldean Empire; Shamshi-Adad V; Adad-Nirari III and his Contemporaries; Arame
Chapter 4: In the Days of Seti I and Ramses II
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 3: Contents
The Velikovsky Theme by Charles Ginenthal
Who Built the Great Pyramid? by Charles Ginenthal
Anthony L. Spalinger's Review ... Lynn E. Rose's Sun, Moon and Sothis, prepared by Charles Ginenthal
A Review of Spalinger's Review of Sun, Moon and Sothis, by Lynn E. Rose
The Egg and Identity of Royalty in Early Korea by Duane Vorhees
Ramessides, Libyans and Nubians by Emmet Sweeney
An Open Letter to Peter James by N. H. Mathews Pseudoscholars and Pseudoscience by Lewis M. Greenberg
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 4: Contents
The Relative Simplicity of Ptolemaic and Copernican Theories, by Lynn E. Rose
Were the Hittites Lydians? A ... Approach, by Eric J. Aitchison
The Strange and Terrible Story of the Kensington Runestone, by Jim and Allen Richardson
Science, History, Rameses II and Velikovsky, by Charles Ginenthal
Sedimentology Evidence by Ulrike Rosner about Tel Munbaqa, by Charles Ginenthal
The Velikovskian Vol. VI, No. 1: Contents
Vol. VI, No. I, II & III (2003) Quota pars operis tanti nobis committitur Pillars of the Past History, Science, Technology, as they relate to Chronology By Charles ... Preface What is historical evidence? [PDF] 1
Chapter 1 The Foundations of Ancient History [PDF] 11
Chapter 2 The Sphinx [PDF] 38
Chapter 3 Astronomical Sothic Dating [PDF] 80
Chapter 4 Scientific ? Radiocarbon Dating [PDF]
118 Chapter 5 Pottery Dating, Faience, and Tin [PDF] 156
Chapter 6 Egyptian Stratigraphy [PDF] 187
Chapter 7 Iron, Diorite and Other Hard Rock [PDF] 197
Chapter 8 Mesopotamia and Ghost Empires [PDF]
244 Chapter 9 Mesopotamian Stratigraphy [PDF]
272 Chapter 10 Iron, Diorite, and the Sumerians [PDF]
290 Chapter 11 Tin Bronzes and the Sumerians [PDF] 296
Chapter 12 Pottery Dating and the Sumerians [PDF] 300
Chapter 13 Scythian Princes in the Royal Tombs of Ur [PDF]
304 Chapter 14 Agronomy and Climatology [PDF] 390
Chapter 15 Dark Ages Based on Dark Scholarship [PDF] 444
Chapter 16 Hittites — Lydians [PDF] 489
Chapter 17 Corroboration, Convergence, Analysis [PDF] 524
Bibliography [PDF] 553 Index [PDF] 565
Pillars of the past is a 600 page, referenced, indexed book,
(Vol. VI, Nos. 1, 2 & 3 of The Velikovskian by Charles Ginenthal).
You referenced The Velikovskian Vo. VII, but I can't find that. Below is all I can find so far.
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=12
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 1: Contents
A Word about the Planetary Debate Irving Wolfe Page 7
Reflections of the Persian Wars Charles Ginenthal Page 16
Ancient Near Eastern Chronology ... Gunnar Heinsohn Page 27
Calendars Revisited Lynn E. Rose Page 3
Indeterminacy: Temporary, Permanent or Indefinite? Roger W. Wescott Page 53
The Moon in Upheaval Charles Ginenthal Page 56
In the Beginning- A Review Charles Ginenthal Page 102
Pseudo-Scientists, Cranks, Crackpots and Henry Bauer Charles Ginenthal Page 107
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 2: Contents
Common Sense about Ancient Maps Charles Ginenthal Page 7
Dark Matter Charles Ginenthal Page 18
William H. Stiebing, Jr. and ... Velikovsky Charles Ginenthal Page 38
Comparing Magnetic Fields: Neptune and Uranus Charles Ginenthal Page 80
Is Space a Superconducting Medium? Charles Ginenthal Page 101
Velikovsky's "The Dark Age of Greece" Clark Whelton Page 103
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 3: Contents
James Hutton: A Non-Inductive, Theological Catastrophist Charles Ginenthal Page 7
Puzzles of Prehistory Roger W. Wescott Page 19
Proof of ... Celestial Counterforce to Gravity Charles Ginenthal Page 32
Measurements of the Electromagnetic Properties of "Space" George R. Talbott and Charles Ginenthal Page 37
The Nature of Venus' Heat Charles Ginenthal Page 56
Revisiting the Temperature of Venus George R. Talbott Page 95
The Cornell Lecture: Sagan on a Wednesday Lynn E. Rose Page 101
The Velikovskian Vol. I, No. 4: Contents
Giants in the Earth Ted Holden Page 7
Point-Counterpoint The Method of Science James E. Oberg Page 18
Oberg's Unscientific Method Charles ... Page 24
Checking the Checkered Checker George R. Talbott Page 78
Hardy, Tess and Psychic Scotoma Duane Leroy Vorhees Page 82
Reviews Grain collection: Human's Natural Ecological Niche- A Review Roger W. Wescott Page 87
Before the Day Breaks- A Perspective Charles Ginenthal Page 92
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 1: Contents
Mind and Its Methods: A Reflection on Neurotic Science Antoinette Mann Paterson Page 7
Scientists, Journalists and Editors as Suppressors Charles ... Page 13
sTARBABY Dennis Rawlins Page 17 Scientific Dating Methods in Ruins Charles Ginenthal Page 50
Reviews Early History of the Israelite People: Biblical Fundamentalism in History (I ) Gunnar Heinsohn Page 80
Early History of the Israelite People: Biblical Fundamentalism in History (II) Gunnar Heinsohn Page 88
The Emerging Revision of Ancient History: Recent Research Martin Sieff Page 94
Books by the Author: George Robert Talbott Page 102
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 2: Contents
Interviewing Immanuel Velikovsky: An Introduction Robert Nichols Page 7
CHZ and Solar System Stability Charles Ginenthal Page 34
Point-Counterpoint Old World Maps ... A Response to Charles Ginenthal Norman Schwarz Page 46
Analysis of Old World Maps Charles Ginenthal Page 52
Trisms and Planetary Iconography Charles Raspil Page 55
Scientists, Journalists and Editors as Suppressors (Part II) Charles Ginenthal Page 88
Books by the Author: George Robert Talbott Page 107
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 3: Contents
June 15, 762 BCE: A Mathematical Analysis of Ancient History Robert T. Russell Page 7
The Kensington Runestone, John ... and The Skeptical Inquirer (Part I) Alice Miller Page 70
The Kensington Runestone, John Whittaker and The Skeptical Inquirer (Part II) Alice Miller Page 78
The Origin of the Moon Charles Ginenthal Page 89
The Velikovskian Vol. II, No. 4: Contents
The Flood Page Charles Ginenthal Page 7
A Lowered Chronology for the Twelfth Dynasty Lynn E. Rose Page 46
Ice Core Evidence ... Ginenthal Page 53
Spatters and Planetary Iconography Charles Raspil Page 91
Response to Raspil Charles Ginenthal Page 121
Resubscription Notice Page 45a
The Velikovsky Conference Page 45b
The Velikovskian Vol. III, No. 1: Contents
Cyrus and the Mardian/Amardian Dethroner of the -6th Century Medes and Aziru the Martu/Amurru (Amorite ... Dethroner of the -14th Century Mitanni, by Gunnar Heinsohn
The Origin of Craters on the Moon and Large Lunar Boulders by Charles Ginenthal
Sagan on the Run, The Florida State Lecture: Sagan on a Wednesday Night by John Godowski
By Eva Danelius: The Identification of the Biblical "Queen of Sheba" with Hatshepsut, "Queen of Egypt and Ethiopia" Did Thutmose III Despoil The Temple in Jerusalem? Ancient Myths and Legends of the African Bantu People by Cecily Marchesi
The Papyrus Ipuwer, Egyptian Version of the Plagues - A New Perspective by Henry Zecher
The Velikovskian Vol. III, No. 2 & 3: Contents
The Problem of the Extinction. The Age of Man in America. The Hunting or Blitzkreig Theory ... The Climate Hypothesis.
Arctic Tundra: Mammoth Steppe or Velikovskian Poleshift? The Environment and Preservation of the Mammoth.
Radiocarbon Dating the Extinction. Poleshift. Uniformitarian or Catastrophist?
Ice Age Theory. Poleshifts, Catastrophes and Myths. Did the mammoth live in Alaska and Siberia during the Ice Age?
The Velikovskian Vol. III, No. 4: Contents
Thales: The First Astronomer, William Mullen.
Paradise and Disaster in T.S . Eliot's "Four ... ", Roger W. Wescott.
Quantalism and Prehistory, Roger W. Wescott.
The History of the Revisionist Debate: A Personal View, Martin Sieff.
The Hyksos Pyramid Builders, Emmet J. Sweeney.
Confessions of a Philosophical Velikovskian, Hugo Meynell.
Sagan's Pseudo-sagacity: Style as a Reflection of Character, Hugh M. Martin.
Carl Sagan Exposed, Charles Ginenthal.
The Wayward Sun, Rand and Rose Flam-Ath.
Scientific American and Owen Gingerich on Velikovsky, Charles Ginenthal.
Stephen J. Gould and Immanuel Velikovsky, Essays in the Continuing Velikovsky Affair, edited by Dale Ann Pearlman, Reviewed by Hugo Meynell.
Phobos and Deimos, Lynn E. Rose.
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 1: Contents
Ocean Sediments, Circumpolar Muck, Erratics, Buried Forests, and Loess as Evidence of Global Floods, Charles ... .
The Oceans Arctic Muck Erratics Buried Forests Loess
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 2: Contents
Metamorphic Evolution, Charles Ginenthal
Shattering the Myths of Darwinism, by Richard Milton; Reviewed by Roger W. ...
The Relevance of the Velikovksy Scenario to the Homeric Question, Hugo Meynell
Reviewing Velikovsky's Venus and Mars Theories, Donald W. Patten
A Tale of Two Venuses, Charles Ginenthal
Chain Reactions -A Victory for Mars, Lynn E. Rose
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 3: Contents
Contents The Electro-Gravitic Theory of Celestial Motion
The Electro-Gravitic Theory of Cosmology
Origin and Evolution of Galaxies Origin and ... of Stars
Origin and Evolution of Solar Systems
Conclusion: Entropy Appendix: Measurements Of The Electromagnetic Properties Of "space"
The Electro-Gravitic Theory of Celestial Motion & Cosmology
(A Special Issue of The Velikovskian, by Charles Ginenthal)
The Velikovskian Vol. IV, No. 4: Contents
Sean Mewhinney's Critique Based on Bombastic Subterfuge, Evasion and Denial Hyprocrisy
Ice Cores or Crystalline Spheres
Oxygen ... Layers, Snow Layering or Diffusion Layering
Corroboration or Disconformation of Ice Cores from Volacanic Material in Ice
Varves as Corroboration or Disconformation of Ice Cores
Heinrich Layers and the Greenland Ice Cores
Dendrochronology and Varves and Greenland Ice Cores vis a vis The Younger Days
Ice Modeling vs. Reality
Contradiction between the Different Ice Cores
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 1: Contents
[PDF] The Aristotelian Cosmos by Charles Ginenthal [PDF]
Were the Hitites Lydians? By Emmet Sweeney ... PDF]
The Periodic Cyclicism of Ancient Catastrophes by Donal W. Patten [PDF]
Propaganda and Scientific History by Charles Ginenthal [PDF]
The Bible Myth, Reviewed by Lynn E. Rose [PDF]
"The Subject of Defamation", a letter by George Robert Talbott [PDF]
Sean Mewhinney's Missing Subglacial Topography By Charles Ginenthal
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 2: Contents
"Ramessides, Medes and Persians" by Emmet J. Sweeney Introduction [PDF]
Chapter 1: Distorting ... Reconstructing the Past [PDF] Stratigraphy and Chronology; The Medes; The Chaldeans; The Lydians; The Scythians
Chapter 2: Bringing Light to a Dark Age [PDF] A Problem and a Solution; Ramessides and Neo-Assyrian; The Neo-Hittites of Syria; Malatya and Karatepe; Carchemish and its Remains; The Sukhis Dynasty
Chapter 3: The Great Kingship of the Medes [PDF] Mitanni and Middle Assyrians; The Median Kingdom of Assyria; Shalmaneser III Battles Suppiluliumas; Sardanapalus; The Kingdom of Urartu; The Chaldean Empire; Shamshi-Adad V; Adad-Nirari III and his Contemporaries; Arame
Chapter 4: In the Days of Seti I and Ramses II
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 3: Contents
The Velikovsky Theme by Charles Ginenthal
Who Built the Great Pyramid? by Charles Ginenthal
Anthony L. Spalinger's Review ... Lynn E. Rose's Sun, Moon and Sothis, prepared by Charles Ginenthal
A Review of Spalinger's Review of Sun, Moon and Sothis, by Lynn E. Rose
The Egg and Identity of Royalty in Early Korea by Duane Vorhees
Ramessides, Libyans and Nubians by Emmet Sweeney
An Open Letter to Peter James by N. H. Mathews Pseudoscholars and Pseudoscience by Lewis M. Greenberg
The Velikovskian Vol. V, No. 4: Contents
The Relative Simplicity of Ptolemaic and Copernican Theories, by Lynn E. Rose
Were the Hittites Lydians? A ... Approach, by Eric J. Aitchison
The Strange and Terrible Story of the Kensington Runestone, by Jim and Allen Richardson
Science, History, Rameses II and Velikovsky, by Charles Ginenthal
Sedimentology Evidence by Ulrike Rosner about Tel Munbaqa, by Charles Ginenthal
The Velikovskian Vol. VI, No. 1: Contents
Vol. VI, No. I, II & III (2003) Quota pars operis tanti nobis committitur Pillars of the Past History, Science, Technology, as they relate to Chronology By Charles ... Preface What is historical evidence? [PDF] 1
Chapter 1 The Foundations of Ancient History [PDF] 11
Chapter 2 The Sphinx [PDF] 38
Chapter 3 Astronomical Sothic Dating [PDF] 80
Chapter 4 Scientific ? Radiocarbon Dating [PDF]
118 Chapter 5 Pottery Dating, Faience, and Tin [PDF] 156
Chapter 6 Egyptian Stratigraphy [PDF] 187
Chapter 7 Iron, Diorite and Other Hard Rock [PDF] 197
Chapter 8 Mesopotamia and Ghost Empires [PDF]
244 Chapter 9 Mesopotamian Stratigraphy [PDF]
272 Chapter 10 Iron, Diorite, and the Sumerians [PDF]
290 Chapter 11 Tin Bronzes and the Sumerians [PDF] 296
Chapter 12 Pottery Dating and the Sumerians [PDF] 300
Chapter 13 Scythian Princes in the Royal Tombs of Ur [PDF]
304 Chapter 14 Agronomy and Climatology [PDF] 390
Chapter 15 Dark Ages Based on Dark Scholarship [PDF] 444
Chapter 16 Hittites — Lydians [PDF] 489
Chapter 17 Corroboration, Convergence, Analysis [PDF] 524
Bibliography [PDF] 553 Index [PDF] 565
Pillars of the past is a 600 page, referenced, indexed book,
(Vol. VI, Nos. 1, 2 & 3 of The Velikovskian by Charles Ginenthal).
-
nick c
- Posts: 3002
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Yes, Velikovskian Vol VII #1 is correct. it was a special edition from 2006, I have it right here as I am typing...pp 1-80 are "EMPIRE OF THEBES - Ages In Chaos Revisited" by Emmet Sweeney and the Addenda is "Charles Ginenthal's Response To Critics", pp 81-140Lloyd wrote:Yes, Nick, I'd like to see the detailed critique of Rohl.
You referenced The Velikovskian Vo. VII, but I can't find that. Below is all I can find so far.
I will try to locate Ginenthal's critique of Rohl, more on that later...
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Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
313437
Ev Cochrane has agreed to an interview. He already answered a few questions which I posted above recently. I intend to ask him similar questions to those soon, but this time I only asked some questions for an introduction. There are 7 questions below. #5 asked if he'd like for me to plug his site and videos etc. I'll do that here. His site is https://www.maverickscience.com/ . He has a lot of articles there and links to his books. I don't know if he has links there to his videos, but the ones I know about are on the Thunderbolts channel at https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... t+cochrane or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPorzEu ... B51gYykjyF .
1. What's your background?
(1) My "background"--not sure what you're really asking here--is that of a serious scholar interested in the Big Questions. While in college and grad school I was primarily focused on evolutionary biology and studied genetics at Iowa State University.
2. What got you interested in Catastrophism and when?
(2) In 1977, as an undergrad, a professor introduced me to the works of Velikovsky. I was initially intrigued by the spectacle of a maverick scholar taking on the establishment (guys like Carl Sagan). Almost immediately I read everything I could find on the man and his theories (Pensee, Kronos, SIS, all books pro and con).
3. Mythology seems to be your strongest suit. Do you agree? What got you interested in that?
(3) While at ISU in the early 80's, I studied Greek and Sumerian myth. One of my first major projects was to compose a lengthy essay on the catastrophic elements in Inanna's mythology. These early writings, in turn, inspired me to reach out to Dave Talbott in 1980 and that led to a collaboration that has lasted some 40 years now. Dave and I wrote a number of articles on the Comet Venus for Kronos in the mid-80's and we later published the journal Aeon, beginning in 1987. Although I have published articles and books on numerous different subjects--evolutionary theory, Martian meteorites, ancient chronology, archaeoastronomy, basketball (Dave and I were both huge Bill Walton fans), etc.--comparative myth remains my primary focus as it provides a unique interface between Earth history, cultural evolution, language, and human psychology.
4. Do you think your grasp of Ancient History is as good as your grasp of Mythology?
(4) My grasp of ancient history is fairly solid, especially that of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.
5. Would you like me to plug your website and your books and videos?
(5) Not sure what you mean here. How would you go about doing that? I don't subscribe to Donald Trump's motto that all publicity is good publicity. I like to be slightly more discerning with regards to where my material appears.
6. Would you like to help develop improved Scientific Methodology?
(6) No idea what you mean here. That said, much of my work is devoted to offering a new approach about how best to reconstruct ancient Earth history, so an evidence-based scientific methodology is very important to me.
7. Otherwise, isn't there a big danger that all of the knowledge that Catastrophism has gained for humanity will be lost?
(7) The prospect that much of our findings will disappear with our deaths is certainly very much on my mind given the recent deaths of Dwardu Cardona, Wal Thornhill, and other leading lights in our movement. I am always interested in learning more about what we can do to vouchsafe our knowledge for future generations.
Ev Cochrane has agreed to an interview. He already answered a few questions which I posted above recently. I intend to ask him similar questions to those soon, but this time I only asked some questions for an introduction. There are 7 questions below. #5 asked if he'd like for me to plug his site and videos etc. I'll do that here. His site is https://www.maverickscience.com/ . He has a lot of articles there and links to his books. I don't know if he has links there to his videos, but the ones I know about are on the Thunderbolts channel at https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... t+cochrane or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPorzEu ... B51gYykjyF .
1. What's your background?
(1) My "background"--not sure what you're really asking here--is that of a serious scholar interested in the Big Questions. While in college and grad school I was primarily focused on evolutionary biology and studied genetics at Iowa State University.
2. What got you interested in Catastrophism and when?
(2) In 1977, as an undergrad, a professor introduced me to the works of Velikovsky. I was initially intrigued by the spectacle of a maverick scholar taking on the establishment (guys like Carl Sagan). Almost immediately I read everything I could find on the man and his theories (Pensee, Kronos, SIS, all books pro and con).
3. Mythology seems to be your strongest suit. Do you agree? What got you interested in that?
(3) While at ISU in the early 80's, I studied Greek and Sumerian myth. One of my first major projects was to compose a lengthy essay on the catastrophic elements in Inanna's mythology. These early writings, in turn, inspired me to reach out to Dave Talbott in 1980 and that led to a collaboration that has lasted some 40 years now. Dave and I wrote a number of articles on the Comet Venus for Kronos in the mid-80's and we later published the journal Aeon, beginning in 1987. Although I have published articles and books on numerous different subjects--evolutionary theory, Martian meteorites, ancient chronology, archaeoastronomy, basketball (Dave and I were both huge Bill Walton fans), etc.--comparative myth remains my primary focus as it provides a unique interface between Earth history, cultural evolution, language, and human psychology.
4. Do you think your grasp of Ancient History is as good as your grasp of Mythology?
(4) My grasp of ancient history is fairly solid, especially that of ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.
5. Would you like me to plug your website and your books and videos?
(5) Not sure what you mean here. How would you go about doing that? I don't subscribe to Donald Trump's motto that all publicity is good publicity. I like to be slightly more discerning with regards to where my material appears.
6. Would you like to help develop improved Scientific Methodology?
(6) No idea what you mean here. That said, much of my work is devoted to offering a new approach about how best to reconstruct ancient Earth history, so an evidence-based scientific methodology is very important to me.
7. Otherwise, isn't there a big danger that all of the knowledge that Catastrophism has gained for humanity will be lost?
(7) The prospect that much of our findings will disappear with our deaths is certainly very much on my mind given the recent deaths of Dwardu Cardona, Wal Thornhill, and other leading lights in our movement. I am always interested in learning more about what we can do to vouchsafe our knowledge for future generations.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
313440
PREP FOR EV'S INTERVIEW
YOUNGER DRYAS NO COMMENT
Last Friday in this post viewtopic.php?p=10820#p10811 I asked Ev what he thinks of Cardona's idea that the Saturn flareup (that was called Creation in myths) occurred during the Younger Dryas event. He said he hasn't looked into that.
NO JUPITER INVOLVEMENT IN POLAR CONFIGURATION
He said he disagrees with Dave Talbott that Jupiter replaced Saturn in the Saturn Configuration, as Dave discussed in the article, From Myth to a Physical Model, in Aeon in Oct 1993.
NO EVIDENCE OF 2,300 BC EVENT
He also said: "{Moe} Mandelkehr's thesis can never be made to square with that of Dave and myself. As you state, Mo pointed to an event that supposedly happened circa 2300 BCE. I see little or no evidence for such an event. In any case, that is the very time the pyramids were being built (Unis's, for example, the one with the Pyramid Texts). There is simply no way to place the Golden Age or any of the major cataclysms that late as they are already mentioned in the Pyramid Texts written before that!!!!! Finally, since we have yet to determine any role for Jupiter in the polar configuration, I see no reason to speculate that it ever moved in the inner solar system."
BANDED SPHERE IMAGES ARE JUST INTRIGUING
1. If Jupiter was not involved in the Saturn Configuration, then was Dave Talbott mistaken when he found ancient depictions of a banded sphere that he thought referred to Jupiter?
(1) I have yet to find any evidence that Jupiter was involved in the polar configuration of planets. And believe me, I am looking! Nor am I aware of any positive evidence presented by anyone else. Dave's suggestions with regards to the banded sphere remain fascinating and well worth further investigation, but they do not appear to support the radical proposal that he offered.
SATURN WASN'T APPARENTLY REPLACED
2. If Saturn departed from the Configuration and appeared to be replaced by another planet, if that planet wasn't Jupiter, was it Mars instead?
(2). I am not aware of any evidence that Saturn "appeared to be replaced by another planet." Again, that is a speculation by Dave that has yet to find any support in the ancient sources or by any other researcher.
INNER PLANETS APPARENTLY DIDN'T MIGRATE FROM ELSEWHERE
3. If Jupiter didn't escort the inner planets to their present orbits, did Saturn do so, because, otherwise, how did the Earth go from the orbit of Saturn to its present orbit without the whole Earth freezing over?
(3). Neither Dave nor I ever supported the idea that Earth and the other planets migrated into the solar system from somewhere else so it's not relevant to our hypothesis.
Ev's answers surprised me, so now I have several questions to ask about the Saturn Configurartion, as well as other questions about myths and history.
PREP FOR EV'S INTERVIEW
YOUNGER DRYAS NO COMMENT
Last Friday in this post viewtopic.php?p=10820#p10811 I asked Ev what he thinks of Cardona's idea that the Saturn flareup (that was called Creation in myths) occurred during the Younger Dryas event. He said he hasn't looked into that.
NO JUPITER INVOLVEMENT IN POLAR CONFIGURATION
He said he disagrees with Dave Talbott that Jupiter replaced Saturn in the Saturn Configuration, as Dave discussed in the article, From Myth to a Physical Model, in Aeon in Oct 1993.
NO EVIDENCE OF 2,300 BC EVENT
He also said: "{Moe} Mandelkehr's thesis can never be made to square with that of Dave and myself. As you state, Mo pointed to an event that supposedly happened circa 2300 BCE. I see little or no evidence for such an event. In any case, that is the very time the pyramids were being built (Unis's, for example, the one with the Pyramid Texts). There is simply no way to place the Golden Age or any of the major cataclysms that late as they are already mentioned in the Pyramid Texts written before that!!!!! Finally, since we have yet to determine any role for Jupiter in the polar configuration, I see no reason to speculate that it ever moved in the inner solar system."
BANDED SPHERE IMAGES ARE JUST INTRIGUING
1. If Jupiter was not involved in the Saturn Configuration, then was Dave Talbott mistaken when he found ancient depictions of a banded sphere that he thought referred to Jupiter?
(1) I have yet to find any evidence that Jupiter was involved in the polar configuration of planets. And believe me, I am looking! Nor am I aware of any positive evidence presented by anyone else. Dave's suggestions with regards to the banded sphere remain fascinating and well worth further investigation, but they do not appear to support the radical proposal that he offered.
SATURN WASN'T APPARENTLY REPLACED
2. If Saturn departed from the Configuration and appeared to be replaced by another planet, if that planet wasn't Jupiter, was it Mars instead?
(2). I am not aware of any evidence that Saturn "appeared to be replaced by another planet." Again, that is a speculation by Dave that has yet to find any support in the ancient sources or by any other researcher.
INNER PLANETS APPARENTLY DIDN'T MIGRATE FROM ELSEWHERE
3. If Jupiter didn't escort the inner planets to their present orbits, did Saturn do so, because, otherwise, how did the Earth go from the orbit of Saturn to its present orbit without the whole Earth freezing over?
(3). Neither Dave nor I ever supported the idea that Earth and the other planets migrated into the solar system from somewhere else so it's not relevant to our hypothesis.
Ev's answers surprised me, so now I have several questions to ask about the Saturn Configurartion, as well as other questions about myths and history.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
313483
SATURN MYTH: EV COCHRANE'S ANSWERS TO 14 MORE QUESTIONS
SATURN CONFIGURATION BREAKUP, NO INFO
1.LK: I was surprised that you said you don't think the inner planets migrated to the inner solar system from the outer solar system. Yet you support the Saturn Configuration in which Saturn, Venus and Mars were close to Earth in very ancient times. So you apparently accept that Saturn was previously in the inner solar system. And, since it long ago moved beyond the orbit of Jupiter, what do you suppose caused it to move so far outward?
__EC: Not sure why you should be surprised as this is one of the two leading possibilities. Either Saturn had to be removed from near Earth or vice versa. Certainly it is easier to imagine Earthian life surviving the removal of Saturn than a trip across the solar system? As for what caused the breakup of the system and Saturn/Mars/Venus's departure, I do not speculate and leave that to the astronomers/physicists to sort out.
NO EVIDENCE INNER PLANETS CAME FROM OUTER SOLAR SYSTEM
2.LK: I know that Dave for a while considered the idea that Venus, Mars and Earth were originally phase-locked with Saturn and orbited Saturn while Saturn orbited the Sun. But I thought Dave later accepted Dwardu's idea that the Saturn configuration came from outside the solar system, in a linear formation, similar to the way the SL9 comet fragments moved linearly from 1992 to 1994 on their way to impacting Jupiter. ... because I thought it was decided that Venus, Mars and Earth would not likely have been able to line up well with Saturn for the polar configuration if they were all orbiting Saturn, since outer satellites always normally orbit much slower than inner satellites. Or do you figure that Venus, Mars and Earth followed Saturn in a line like the SL9 comet fragments, instead of orbiting Saturn?
__EC: Dave never accepted "Dwardu's idea." In fact, it wasn't Dwardu's idea at all, rather Wal's. Mind you, Wal's hypothesis is utterly novel and fascinating and definitely deserves further investigation. But I try and argue based on evidence and I see no evidence for Earth moving to its present orbit from the outer solar system.
MAJOR PREHISTORY EVENTS
3.LK: Can you describe briefly what major events likely occurred in prehistory and when, according to your mythology research?
__EC: Every major event that we have discussed occurred in prehistory. These traditions were well known and "old hat" already by the time of Unis's pyramid in 2450 BCE so they must have been prehistoric in nature. Of the events included I would number Creation itself, the Venus/Mars catastrophes, the tenure of the polar configuration, the Flood, the ladder to heaven and/or World Pillar, etc. In short, every major mythological theme will trace to the prehistoric period.
VENUS COMET DARK PERIOD BEFORE CREATION
4.LK: Was there an Age of Darkness and was the polar column visible then?
__EC: World myth is unanimous that a period of Darkness prevailed before Creation. But this need mean no more than some serious catastrophe darkening the skies for a period of a month or so prior to order being restored. In that sense, there was no Dark Age at all--otherwise how would photosynthesis and a host of biological functions survive? There is a wealth of evidence that the comet-like phase of Venus belongs to this period of darkness and numerous myths credit it with darkening the world and bringing it to the brink of destruction.
VENUS/MARS MARRIAGE WAS CREATION
5.LK: Was there a huge Saturn flareup that ended the Age of Darkness and was described as Creation?
__EC: Here opinions differ. Dave and Dwardu were definitely of that opinion. In my recent book The Case of the Turquoise Sun I offer a different view. Creation itself was marked by the sacred marriage between Mars and Venus. That was the event that is credited with bringing "light" to the world and ushering in a period of luxurious turquoise radiance. So far as I'm aware, there is no ancient account that links either Saturn or a flareup of Saturn to Creation and/or a period of Darkness.
POLAR COLUMN DID NOT RETRACT BEFORE CREATION
6.LK: Did the polar column retract just before the flareup and lead to belief in Saturn's self-castration and rites of circumcision etc?
__EC: No. Long story.
VENUS CROWNED MARS KING
7.LK: Did Venus appear like a comet circling Saturn after the flareup and did the Venus comet tail appear to form a ring around Saturn, called Aten and Ouroboros?
__EC: As mentioned earlier, the period of the Venus comet in its destructive phase preceded Creation. That said, during the unfolding events of Creation it returned to Horus (Mars) and encircled it as the uraeus-crown or ouroboros like object. It was Venus's encircling of Horus/Mars that signaled the latter's "crowning" and universal kingship.
SATURN'S RINGS, NO INFO
8.LK: Did Saturn's rings form at that time?
__EC: I am not aware of any evidence to that effect.
SATURN'S CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK, NO INFO
9.LK: Did Saturn have a separate circumstellar disk that resembled an ocean?
__EC: I am not aware of any evidence to that effect.
GOLDEN AGE DURATION, NO INFO
10.LK: Can you estimate the minimum and maximum duration of the Golden Age?
__EC: No.
CELESTIAL FLOOD
11.LK: Was there one or more Great Floods?
__EC: Ancient myth seems to remember one great flood associated with the unfolding of Creation. By Flood, Dave and I have in mind entirely celestial events. We do not subscribe to a Noah-like flood scenario destroying the Earth ala Velikovsky and so many other writers.
ICE AGE, SEE CARDONA
12.LK: Was there one or more Ice Ages?
__EC: I have never investigated or discussed the Ice Ages. I see no reason to believe any have occurred since the events discussed by Dave and myself. See Dwardu's work if you're interested. He has collected some very compelling evidence for earlier events.
CELESTIAL CONFLAGRATION
13.LK: Was there one or more Great Conflagrations?
__EC: Same answer as with respect to the Flood. The Conflagration in question was wholly celestial in nature and has nothing to do with a global Earth event ala Donnelly and other theorists.
CONFLAGRATION JUST BEFORE CREATION
14.LK: When did those events occur relative to the Saturn flareup Creation event?
__EC: The Conflagration, such as it was, evidently traces to the unfolding of Creation--i.e., it was prehistoric in nature. See my chapter on Demophon in Turquoise Sun. {See https://www.maverickscience.com/ }
SATURN MYTH: EV COCHRANE'S ANSWERS TO 14 MORE QUESTIONS
SATURN CONFIGURATION BREAKUP, NO INFO
1.LK: I was surprised that you said you don't think the inner planets migrated to the inner solar system from the outer solar system. Yet you support the Saturn Configuration in which Saturn, Venus and Mars were close to Earth in very ancient times. So you apparently accept that Saturn was previously in the inner solar system. And, since it long ago moved beyond the orbit of Jupiter, what do you suppose caused it to move so far outward?
__EC: Not sure why you should be surprised as this is one of the two leading possibilities. Either Saturn had to be removed from near Earth or vice versa. Certainly it is easier to imagine Earthian life surviving the removal of Saturn than a trip across the solar system? As for what caused the breakup of the system and Saturn/Mars/Venus's departure, I do not speculate and leave that to the astronomers/physicists to sort out.
NO EVIDENCE INNER PLANETS CAME FROM OUTER SOLAR SYSTEM
2.LK: I know that Dave for a while considered the idea that Venus, Mars and Earth were originally phase-locked with Saturn and orbited Saturn while Saturn orbited the Sun. But I thought Dave later accepted Dwardu's idea that the Saturn configuration came from outside the solar system, in a linear formation, similar to the way the SL9 comet fragments moved linearly from 1992 to 1994 on their way to impacting Jupiter. ... because I thought it was decided that Venus, Mars and Earth would not likely have been able to line up well with Saturn for the polar configuration if they were all orbiting Saturn, since outer satellites always normally orbit much slower than inner satellites. Or do you figure that Venus, Mars and Earth followed Saturn in a line like the SL9 comet fragments, instead of orbiting Saturn?
__EC: Dave never accepted "Dwardu's idea." In fact, it wasn't Dwardu's idea at all, rather Wal's. Mind you, Wal's hypothesis is utterly novel and fascinating and definitely deserves further investigation. But I try and argue based on evidence and I see no evidence for Earth moving to its present orbit from the outer solar system.
MAJOR PREHISTORY EVENTS
3.LK: Can you describe briefly what major events likely occurred in prehistory and when, according to your mythology research?
__EC: Every major event that we have discussed occurred in prehistory. These traditions were well known and "old hat" already by the time of Unis's pyramid in 2450 BCE so they must have been prehistoric in nature. Of the events included I would number Creation itself, the Venus/Mars catastrophes, the tenure of the polar configuration, the Flood, the ladder to heaven and/or World Pillar, etc. In short, every major mythological theme will trace to the prehistoric period.
VENUS COMET DARK PERIOD BEFORE CREATION
4.LK: Was there an Age of Darkness and was the polar column visible then?
__EC: World myth is unanimous that a period of Darkness prevailed before Creation. But this need mean no more than some serious catastrophe darkening the skies for a period of a month or so prior to order being restored. In that sense, there was no Dark Age at all--otherwise how would photosynthesis and a host of biological functions survive? There is a wealth of evidence that the comet-like phase of Venus belongs to this period of darkness and numerous myths credit it with darkening the world and bringing it to the brink of destruction.
VENUS/MARS MARRIAGE WAS CREATION
5.LK: Was there a huge Saturn flareup that ended the Age of Darkness and was described as Creation?
__EC: Here opinions differ. Dave and Dwardu were definitely of that opinion. In my recent book The Case of the Turquoise Sun I offer a different view. Creation itself was marked by the sacred marriage between Mars and Venus. That was the event that is credited with bringing "light" to the world and ushering in a period of luxurious turquoise radiance. So far as I'm aware, there is no ancient account that links either Saturn or a flareup of Saturn to Creation and/or a period of Darkness.
POLAR COLUMN DID NOT RETRACT BEFORE CREATION
6.LK: Did the polar column retract just before the flareup and lead to belief in Saturn's self-castration and rites of circumcision etc?
__EC: No. Long story.
VENUS CROWNED MARS KING
7.LK: Did Venus appear like a comet circling Saturn after the flareup and did the Venus comet tail appear to form a ring around Saturn, called Aten and Ouroboros?
__EC: As mentioned earlier, the period of the Venus comet in its destructive phase preceded Creation. That said, during the unfolding events of Creation it returned to Horus (Mars) and encircled it as the uraeus-crown or ouroboros like object. It was Venus's encircling of Horus/Mars that signaled the latter's "crowning" and universal kingship.
SATURN'S RINGS, NO INFO
8.LK: Did Saturn's rings form at that time?
__EC: I am not aware of any evidence to that effect.
SATURN'S CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK, NO INFO
9.LK: Did Saturn have a separate circumstellar disk that resembled an ocean?
__EC: I am not aware of any evidence to that effect.
GOLDEN AGE DURATION, NO INFO
10.LK: Can you estimate the minimum and maximum duration of the Golden Age?
__EC: No.
CELESTIAL FLOOD
11.LK: Was there one or more Great Floods?
__EC: Ancient myth seems to remember one great flood associated with the unfolding of Creation. By Flood, Dave and I have in mind entirely celestial events. We do not subscribe to a Noah-like flood scenario destroying the Earth ala Velikovsky and so many other writers.
ICE AGE, SEE CARDONA
12.LK: Was there one or more Ice Ages?
__EC: I have never investigated or discussed the Ice Ages. I see no reason to believe any have occurred since the events discussed by Dave and myself. See Dwardu's work if you're interested. He has collected some very compelling evidence for earlier events.
CELESTIAL CONFLAGRATION
13.LK: Was there one or more Great Conflagrations?
__EC: Same answer as with respect to the Flood. The Conflagration in question was wholly celestial in nature and has nothing to do with a global Earth event ala Donnelly and other theorists.
CONFLAGRATION JUST BEFORE CREATION
14.LK: When did those events occur relative to the Saturn flareup Creation event?
__EC: The Conflagration, such as it was, evidently traces to the unfolding of Creation--i.e., it was prehistoric in nature. See my chapter on Demophon in Turquoise Sun. {See https://www.maverickscience.com/ }
-
nick c
- Posts: 3002
- Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Lloyd,
If you are interested, here are the pages that contain the refutation of Rohl's chronology as written by Ginenthal in his book Pillars of the Past Volume III
Note: the page numbers below are from the Nook version and are different than the hard copy. I don't know why. Also note that Chappell is a colleague and defender of Rohl's chronology.
"David Rohl, Peter James Et Al., and Astronomical Dating" P.252 -259
"Daphne Chappell's Critique and Evidence" P. 259 - P274
"Chappell and the 12th and 18th Dynasties: Technology and Chronology" P. 274-287
If you are interested, here are the pages that contain the refutation of Rohl's chronology as written by Ginenthal in his book Pillars of the Past Volume III
Note: the page numbers below are from the Nook version and are different than the hard copy. I don't know why. Also note that Chappell is a colleague and defender of Rohl's chronology.
"David Rohl, Peter James Et Al., and Astronomical Dating" P.252 -259
"Daphne Chappell's Critique and Evidence" P. 259 - P274
"Chappell and the 12th and 18th Dynasties: Technology and Chronology" P. 274-287
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5720
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
313492
CHRONOLOGY REVISIONISTS
I don't have Pillars of the Past, Nick. But I did find some critiques of Rohl's chronology. Below is part of the results of a search on Murphie from https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... zoom_query , which I make stand out with a line before the name: ____. I re-organized the results chronologically. The first two are probably the same or similar paper published in two different periodicals. I have the second version. And Murphie seems convincing in explaining how Rohl erred in his chronology. Murphie seems to favor much of Velikovsky's chronology. It looks like I'll need to look up Atchison's and Greenburg's complete articles that are excerpted below, as well as more of Murphie's. Are you familiar with any of those? Do you disagree with them?
14. Critique of David Rohl's A Test of Time
From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1997:1 (Oct 1997) by Dale F. ____Murphie. Dale ____Murphie has spent his working life in accountancy and commerce. He is also a research consultant on family history and genealogy. He is currently preparing for publication a book on a revised chronology, based on Velikovsky's Ages in Chaos but bringing in many changes. According to David Rohl, The evidence from the Egyptian monumental reliefs, artefacts and documents points to the identification of Ramesses II as the historical counterpart of the biblical Shishak, conqueror of Jerusalem' [1 ]. The evidence certainly points to Ramesses II
30. Testing Rohl's Test of Time
From: Aeon V:1 (Nov 1997) Dale F. ____Murphie. In the main it is very difficult to resist saying pleasant things about David Rohl's excellent book, A Test of Time, inasmuch as it sets new industry standards in information organisation and presentation and stirs the imagination in ways probably never achieved by any other writer on the subject of Egyptological and Bible research, save his erstwhile mentor Immanuel Velikovsky. The following statement may therefore appear out of place, even trite, but it must be said: David Rohl's impressive book is unlikely to weather the test of time. Lending itself towards an eight word summary-
7. It's Time to Get Serious About Manetho
From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1998:1 (Sep 1998) by Dale F. ____Murphie. Dale F ____Murphie was educated in technical matters but followed a career in commerce, travelling throughout the world, particularly in and around the Middle East. Retired through ill health, he is a research consultant for a leading Australian genealogical service organisation. He has researched a wide range of subjects related to the history of Egypt and is currently fine-tuninga 1500 page study on the chonology of Egypt and contemporary civilisations. Summary The kinglists of Egyptian priest Manetho in c. -260 represent the foundation plank of all reconstruction of that
13. After 200 Years It's Time to Get Serious About Dynasty XVIII and Tuthmose III
From: Aeon V:3 (Dec 1998) Dale F. ____Murphie. Introduction. There are those souls indoctrinated under consequence of the prevailing scholarly view that Egypt's post-Hyksos recovery was some type of metamorphosis instanta, where her pharaohs returned almost immediately to centre stage, surging into Syria and beyond as it pleased them. An elementary meander through her written records will uphold the alternative proposition that Dynasty XVIII's march to megapower status was an orderly evolution over an extended period. The current notion probably springs from the entrenched academic belief that the Hyksos occupation of Egypt only lasted a hundred or so years
12. The Mosaic Calendar and the Sabbath
From: Aeon V:3 (Dec 1998) by Eric Aitchison. If Immanuel Velikovsky was obsessed with proving Biblical accuracy, as many of his detractors assert, and should such have been his intention, there is ample evidence for a changed year length within the Old Testament. I do not wish to be seen as a Biblical fundamentalist but, in this context, I am prepared to acknowledge that a nation in its early impressionable years could create a calendar system which it saw as the direct result of God's instruction to Moses. The population of Egypt was subservient to the priestly caste who calculated the calendar or, in
... good enough for them. It was only Roman power, backed by the edict of Augustus, that forced Egypt to reluctantly accept the new 365.25 day calendar. ACKNOWLEDGEMENT: The concept of the moving Sabbath and its reliance on the 365-day year, as discussed above, was originally outlined in a privately circulated paper by Dale F. ____Murphie in 1976. The author wishes to acknowledge his indebtedness to Mr. ____Murphie for allowing him access to, and use of, this material. Eric Aitchison. Notes [1 ] Leviticus 23. [2 ] Ibid., 23:26-32. [3 ] Ibid., 23:11, 21. Dealing specifically with Sivan
8. Another Velikovsky Affray: the Histories
From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1999:1 (Jul 1999) by Dale F. ____Murphie. Introduction. My critique of David Rohl's A Test of Time [1 ] presented objections to the New Chronology which has been offered as a replacement for Velikovsky's now generally discarded Revised Chronology', itself put together twixt 1944 and 1978. Many new theories for the history of the ancient world are emerging, inspired by notions that Velikovsky lost the plot in at least his last two books [2 ] and some claim glaring inconsistencies in his first [3 ]. I advocate amendments at many points in Velikovsky's work but believe
47. The Mosaic Calendar
From: Aeon V:4 (July 1999) Lisa Liel, from Efrat, Israel, writes: I'm not quite sure what to make of Eric Aitchison's paper on the Mosaic calendar. [7 ] Some of the things I would comment on are minor, others are major. Let me just go through them all and then sum up at the end. Aitchison states: "The Book of Leviticus contains a rambling set of instructions..." [8 ] Here, the term gratuitous comes to mind. The word "rambling" adds nothing to Aitchison's thesis. It may be his personal opinion, but if the
... solemn feasts." As will be readily seen, each of the objections raised by Liel are easily covered by these more expansive notes and represent effective defense of the decision by AEON to publish an article supporting the intrinsic beauty of the ancient Mosaic calendar and its important role in enabling modern man to systematically unravel the past. Dale F. ____Murphie, from New South Wales, Australia, adds: In terms of catastrophism, the Mosaic calendar, as pointed out in Eric Aitchison's article, is a unique document. Strictly solar, this intricate and comprehensive model speaks to us from a distant period. No similar calendar existed in any other nation of the past. It is a
5. The Lion Gate At Mycenae Revisited
From: SIS C & C Review 2003 (Nov 2003) Conference Proceedings. Ages Still in Chaos. Lewis M. Greenberg. Summary. For more than a century, the academic community - by and large - has accepted the putative dates for the monuments of pre-Hellenic Mycenaean Greece which were first established via synchronisms with Dynastic Egypt. Despite challenges to the chronological reliability of the latter, the current schema of Egyptian history remains the primary standard for assigning dates to pre-Classical civilisations. The present paper, which focuses on the most notable work of Mycenaean art - the Lion Gate, reexamines both the basis and sources of its chronological placement and
... Rohl deigned to acknowledge or respond to Velikovsky's earlier proposal that it was Thutmoses III who plundered the Great Temple of Solomon - a thesis fundamentally supported by Eva Danelius in a lengthy and scholarly article published in the very pages of the SIS Review [43] and also ignored by James and Rohl in a remarkable oversight. More recently, Dale ____Murphie has challenged Rohl's identification of Ramesses II as the Biblical Shishak [44]; and, in a lengthy essay of his own, ____Murphie reaffirmed Velikovsky's identification of Thutmoses III as the Shishak of the Bible [45]. In turn, Eric Aitchison has written a lengthy criticism of ____Murphie, proposing Ahmose - the first pharaoh of Dynasty
CHRONOLOGY REVISIONISTS
I don't have Pillars of the Past, Nick. But I did find some critiques of Rohl's chronology. Below is part of the results of a search on Murphie from https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... zoom_query , which I make stand out with a line before the name: ____. I re-organized the results chronologically. The first two are probably the same or similar paper published in two different periodicals. I have the second version. And Murphie seems convincing in explaining how Rohl erred in his chronology. Murphie seems to favor much of Velikovsky's chronology. It looks like I'll need to look up Atchison's and Greenburg's complete articles that are excerpted below, as well as more of Murphie's. Are you familiar with any of those? Do you disagree with them?
14. Critique of David Rohl's A Test of Time
From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1997:1 (Oct 1997) by Dale F. ____Murphie. Dale ____Murphie has spent his working life in accountancy and commerce. He is also a research consultant on family history and genealogy. He is currently preparing for publication a book on a revised chronology, based on Velikovsky's Ages in Chaos but bringing in many changes. According to David Rohl, The evidence from the Egyptian monumental reliefs, artefacts and documents points to the identification of Ramesses II as the historical counterpart of the biblical Shishak, conqueror of Jerusalem' [1 ]. The evidence certainly points to Ramesses II
30. Testing Rohl's Test of Time
From: Aeon V:1 (Nov 1997) Dale F. ____Murphie. In the main it is very difficult to resist saying pleasant things about David Rohl's excellent book, A Test of Time, inasmuch as it sets new industry standards in information organisation and presentation and stirs the imagination in ways probably never achieved by any other writer on the subject of Egyptological and Bible research, save his erstwhile mentor Immanuel Velikovsky. The following statement may therefore appear out of place, even trite, but it must be said: David Rohl's impressive book is unlikely to weather the test of time. Lending itself towards an eight word summary-
7. It's Time to Get Serious About Manetho
From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1998:1 (Sep 1998) by Dale F. ____Murphie. Dale F ____Murphie was educated in technical matters but followed a career in commerce, travelling throughout the world, particularly in and around the Middle East. Retired through ill health, he is a research consultant for a leading Australian genealogical service organisation. He has researched a wide range of subjects related to the history of Egypt and is currently fine-tuninga 1500 page study on the chonology of Egypt and contemporary civilisations. Summary The kinglists of Egyptian priest Manetho in c. -260 represent the foundation plank of all reconstruction of that
13. After 200 Years It's Time to Get Serious About Dynasty XVIII and Tuthmose III
From: Aeon V:3 (Dec 1998) Dale F. ____Murphie. Introduction. There are those souls indoctrinated under consequence of the prevailing scholarly view that Egypt's post-Hyksos recovery was some type of metamorphosis instanta, where her pharaohs returned almost immediately to centre stage, surging into Syria and beyond as it pleased them. An elementary meander through her written records will uphold the alternative proposition that Dynasty XVIII's march to megapower status was an orderly evolution over an extended period. The current notion probably springs from the entrenched academic belief that the Hyksos occupation of Egypt only lasted a hundred or so years
12. The Mosaic Calendar and the Sabbath
From: Aeon V:3 (Dec 1998) by Eric Aitchison. If Immanuel Velikovsky was obsessed with proving Biblical accuracy, as many of his detractors assert, and should such have been his intention, there is ample evidence for a changed year length within the Old Testament. I do not wish to be seen as a Biblical fundamentalist but, in this context, I am prepared to acknowledge that a nation in its early impressionable years could create a calendar system which it saw as the direct result of God's instruction to Moses. The population of Egypt was subservient to the priestly caste who calculated the calendar or, in
... good enough for them. It was only Roman power, backed by the edict of Augustus, that forced Egypt to reluctantly accept the new 365.25 day calendar. ACKNOWLEDGEMENT: The concept of the moving Sabbath and its reliance on the 365-day year, as discussed above, was originally outlined in a privately circulated paper by Dale F. ____Murphie in 1976. The author wishes to acknowledge his indebtedness to Mr. ____Murphie for allowing him access to, and use of, this material. Eric Aitchison. Notes [1 ] Leviticus 23. [2 ] Ibid., 23:26-32. [3 ] Ibid., 23:11, 21. Dealing specifically with Sivan
8. Another Velikovsky Affray: the Histories
From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 1999:1 (Jul 1999) by Dale F. ____Murphie. Introduction. My critique of David Rohl's A Test of Time [1 ] presented objections to the New Chronology which has been offered as a replacement for Velikovsky's now generally discarded Revised Chronology', itself put together twixt 1944 and 1978. Many new theories for the history of the ancient world are emerging, inspired by notions that Velikovsky lost the plot in at least his last two books [2 ] and some claim glaring inconsistencies in his first [3 ]. I advocate amendments at many points in Velikovsky's work but believe
47. The Mosaic Calendar
From: Aeon V:4 (July 1999) Lisa Liel, from Efrat, Israel, writes: I'm not quite sure what to make of Eric Aitchison's paper on the Mosaic calendar. [7 ] Some of the things I would comment on are minor, others are major. Let me just go through them all and then sum up at the end. Aitchison states: "The Book of Leviticus contains a rambling set of instructions..." [8 ] Here, the term gratuitous comes to mind. The word "rambling" adds nothing to Aitchison's thesis. It may be his personal opinion, but if the
... solemn feasts." As will be readily seen, each of the objections raised by Liel are easily covered by these more expansive notes and represent effective defense of the decision by AEON to publish an article supporting the intrinsic beauty of the ancient Mosaic calendar and its important role in enabling modern man to systematically unravel the past. Dale F. ____Murphie, from New South Wales, Australia, adds: In terms of catastrophism, the Mosaic calendar, as pointed out in Eric Aitchison's article, is a unique document. Strictly solar, this intricate and comprehensive model speaks to us from a distant period. No similar calendar existed in any other nation of the past. It is a
5. The Lion Gate At Mycenae Revisited
From: SIS C & C Review 2003 (Nov 2003) Conference Proceedings. Ages Still in Chaos. Lewis M. Greenberg. Summary. For more than a century, the academic community - by and large - has accepted the putative dates for the monuments of pre-Hellenic Mycenaean Greece which were first established via synchronisms with Dynastic Egypt. Despite challenges to the chronological reliability of the latter, the current schema of Egyptian history remains the primary standard for assigning dates to pre-Classical civilisations. The present paper, which focuses on the most notable work of Mycenaean art - the Lion Gate, reexamines both the basis and sources of its chronological placement and
... Rohl deigned to acknowledge or respond to Velikovsky's earlier proposal that it was Thutmoses III who plundered the Great Temple of Solomon - a thesis fundamentally supported by Eva Danelius in a lengthy and scholarly article published in the very pages of the SIS Review [43] and also ignored by James and Rohl in a remarkable oversight. More recently, Dale ____Murphie has challenged Rohl's identification of Ramesses II as the Biblical Shishak [44]; and, in a lengthy essay of his own, ____Murphie reaffirmed Velikovsky's identification of Thutmoses III as the Shishak of the Bible [45]. In turn, Eric Aitchison has written a lengthy criticism of ____Murphie, proposing Ahmose - the first pharaoh of Dynasty
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