Thunderbolts Forum v3.0

Brigit wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 9:33 pmI would never do such a thing, JHL. I hope you will take my word for it.

I know; calculator goal-seeking is reserved for standard modelists.

Brigit:

-For the sake of brevity I have called the double layer the heliosheath,

Would you care to comment on the Idea, as proposed by Dr Scott,
that the chromosphere is (or contains) a double layer ?

by jacmac » Mon Jan 04, 2021 6:56 pm

"Would you care to comment on the Idea, as proposed by Dr Scott,
that the chromosphere is (or contains) a double layer ?"

There's that too!
I would love to, as well as explore the topic of the many other double layer striations which would surround a spherical anode. As Parker cruises through the solar atmosphere, I interpret the changes in chemistry, density, and em fields as plasma striations, and the most important DL closer to the sun is of course above the photosphere, which Donald Scott has talked about in great detail in his books and presentations. There we see negatively charged particles and positive ions inbound and outbound in an electric field (DLs have an efield between them); the result is shooting density and temp changes, and accelerated charged particles. Not to mention glow and arc mode plasmas.

• Figure 20
  https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/imag ... w&usqp=CAU
  No circuit, no double layers.
  Mistakes are my own, not those of the Plasma Universe, the Electric Universe, or SAFIRE.

But the worry about double layers is that they are plasma instabilities, they tend to not hold still, they radiate energy in radio frequencies, and also, they explode. They require a current to maintain them. The first criticism any one offers (see page 1) is that a positively charged object in a plasma will be discharged or neutralized by the electrons in the plasma. And that is of course a valid point. But these cosmic plasma sheaths are maintained by currents, therefore, they do not become neutralized any more than an anode in a gaseous discharge tube does. That is to say, no circuit, no sustained double layers -- just transient ones, like the flares which may or may not accompany CMEs. So I have started with the cathode at the heliosheath, and the voltage across it supplied by the interstellar medium; which will be an ample source of Sunward Electrons, and eventually, a closed circuit. Hannes Alfven suggested a circuit which proposes it closes far out from the Sun's poles.

• Figure 21
  https://www.holoscience.com/wp/wp-conte ... ircuit.jpg
  "In the circuit model, it was noted that every circuit that contains an inductance is intrinsically explosive. This is true because a conductive circuit will tend to supply all of the inductive energy to any point of interruption of the circuit. Double layers are known to tend to interrupt current in a plasma. Hence, the entire energy of a circuit can be released at the point where a double layer forms regardless of the source of the energy of the circuit.
  
  Because of their property of generating cosmic rays, synchrotron radiation, radio noise, and occasionally exploding, Alfvén proposed,
  • “DL’s may be considered as a new class of celestial objects… For example, the heliospheric current system must close at large distances, and it is possible — perhaps likely — that this is done by a network of filamentary currents. Many such filaments may produce DL’s, and some of these may explode.”
  To give an idea of their omnipresence in space, DLs are implicated in the earth’s auroral regions, extragalactic jets, stellar jets, novae and supernovae, X-ray and gamma-ray bursts, X-ray pulsars, double radio sources, solar flares, and the source of cosmic ray acceleration." ~W.Thornhill

I believe I am meant to give 5 good reasons why the heliosheath is a plasma Langmuir sheath next.

Brigit:

But the worry about double layers is that they are plasma instabilities, they tend to not hold still, ... and also, they explode.

Yes, the above may be true in general, but what about our sun ?
The basic state of the plasma layers we can easily see, making up the sun, is one of stability.
Our quiet sun has been there for thousands of years; holding its shape, size and output levels.
Regardless of sunspots, flares, CME's, coronal holes, etc. there it is, every day.
The same can be inferred of the double layer at the heliosheath.
Stability, in general, must be the norm to maintain what we call the solar system.
For the plasma density within the heliosheath to be about 1/40 th. the plasma density outside,
there needs be a double layer, as you have described.
It must be a barrier to entry of the interstellar medium, but a porous one, to allow for the external energy to power the sun.
So, with a double layer in close above the photosphere, and another one very far out at the healiosheath,
what might explain the fundamental stability of our sun and its sphere of influence ?
Why has it not exploded, or not held still ?

Brigit wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:05 pm But these cosmic plasma sheaths are maintained by currents, therefore, they do not become neutralized any more than an anode in a gaseous discharge tube does.

That still leaves the question of what maintains the current in the first place.

jacmac wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:27 am For the plasma density within the heliosheath to be about 1/40 th. the plasma density outside,
there needs be a double layer, as you have described.

Not necessarily.
In fact, I would claim it should be a current sheet, and not a double layer. Same situation is observed at Earth's bow shock and magnetopause, both of which are current sheets and not double layers.

paladin17 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:05 am

Brigit wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 9:05 pm But these cosmic plasma sheaths are maintained by currents, therefore, they do not become neutralized any more than an anode in a gaseous discharge tube does.

That still leaves the question of what maintains the current in the first place.

Continuous ionization maintains the current sheet as in:

A fireball plasma

Pioneer, V1, V2, and now New Horizons have all detected an unusual 'brightness' in Lyman alpha in the direction of the Sun's way ie at the heliosphere "nose". People forget that the solar system is moving through a region that includes rather large molecular clouds:

Local Cloud & G-Cloud

The heliosphere has to also present an Ionizing Front as it interacts with these clouds. This is why there exist increased brightness in Lyman alpha ionizing radiation, interpreted as a "hydrogen wall", at the nose of the heliosphere.

New Horizons Just Found Hints of a Huge Structure at The Edge of Our Solar System

paladin17 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 11:05 am

jacmac wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 4:27 am For the plasma density within the heliosheath to be about 1/40 th. the plasma density outside,
there needs be a double layer, as you have described.

Not necessarily.
In fact, I would claim it should be a current sheet, and not a double layer. Same situation is observed at Earth's bow shock and magnetopause, both of which are current sheets and not double layers.

Part of the problem is that no matter which name one chooses to use one is only pointing toward one of several functions that occur in the interactions of an ionizing sheath within the immediate external environment. Were it a simple case of the solar system and its heliosphere drifting to the vacuum of space there would be no heliosphere. The space within which the sun moves is filled with other species of particles; a lot of which belongs to several other larger 'structures'. It is not beneficial to treat the observations as though a case of the heliosphere being a "bubble" moving in a void because simultaneously those clouds have their own collective motions in different directions as portrayed above. Consider also:

The first encounter between the sun and the surrounding interstellar cloud appears to have occurred 2000 to 8000 years ago. The sun and cloud space motions are nearly perpendicular, an indication that the sun is skimming the cloud surface. The electron density derived for the surrounding cloud from the carbon component of the anomalous cosmic ray population in the solar system and from the interstellar ratio of Mg(+) to Mg degrees toward Sirius support an equilibrium model for cloud ionization (an electron density of 0.22 to 0.44 per cubic centimeter). The upwind magnetic field direction is nearly parallel to the cloud surface. The relative sun-cloud motion indicates that the solar system has a bow shock. - Morphology and ionization of the interstellar cloud surrounding the solar system - P C Frisch 02 Sep 1994 (paywalled)

These questions: Is it a double layer, is it a current sheet, is it a membrane, is it a boundary, a porous sheath...? The answer is YES to all of them owing to the fact that several different functions are inherent properties of this dynamic multifarious (multi-modal) 'structure' known as the "Heliophere". Taking into consideration the dynamics of the immediate external environment, these interacting clouds that are everywhere present, even the details in this next image are incomplete:

Heliosphere

Where is the "Hydrogen Wall" in that portrayal. Where is the increase in Lyman alpha brightness? Where are the LIC and G-Cloud? Or: Where is the IBEX Ribbon, or interstellar magnetic field "draping" across the nose see? Whatever name one chooses it only ever seems to point to (and limit) one of several functions.

Hello All!

First an introduction...

I'm not an electrical engineer, or a pure scientist, or theoretical scientist of any sort. Yes, I've had some exposure here and there - but nothing that would amount to anywhere near that which would "qualify" me as having some kind of weight in a "science" discussion.

I've been a long time lurker on this website and forums . . . and of course have followed a lot of the Youtube publications.

The Electric Universe Theory is a rather interesting. Worth examining, but of course, theories are theories and they all have their limitations. At least the proponents overall seem to be more honest - willing to admit that all they have is theory - willing to admit at times, "I honestly don't know!" - when it's called for . . . unlike too many contemporary establishment scientists.

Now I don't know MIchael Mozina, I'm familiar with who Paladin is - but don't really know him nor have I met him. Nor do I have any clue who Higgsy really is. So for all effective purposes, we're strangers arguing with the Internet.

So why did I request a registration, and why am I posting here?

One word:

Higgsy

Why Higgsy?

The following is a portion of Higgys original post in this thread - and he has re-posted it roughly the same throughout this thread:

Quote:

"Thank you. But this is not an answer to my question: "Do you or Wal have any idea or model for how that might work within the Sun and where we can find the currents in the solar system necessary to power the Sun electrically to the tune of 10^26W?" In other words, I am looking for evidence of these sunward electrons, a measure of their flux, a mechanism for converting them into radiation at the Sun, a means for preventing negative charge accumulation in the Sun, and calculations that show that all of this adds up to 10^26W."

That above has been sticking with me for some time now, and more so the past few days.

Why?

I have a nice big massive text book behind me literally titled: "Electrical Circuit Theory"

It's not defined in whole by its discussion of a capacitor....ideal and real. Its not defined in whole by its discussion of a anode...ideal and real. Its not defined in whole by its discussion of a cathode...ideal and real. Actually, it's everything...right down to an "unknown's" applicability to a circuit based upon it's observable and measureable behavior.

In my brain, when I see and hear "The Electric Universe", what my brain processes is:

"Interstellar Electrical Circuit Theory"

However, getting back directly to Higgsy quote, my brain is also saying the following when processing HIggsy's questions :

"What is this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Describe this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Identify the taps of this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Describe how these taps are utilized in this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"How much voltage, wattage, current, power, etc, are these taps on this interstellar or galactic transformer good for?"

That's how I see Higgsy's question from his posts...

Assuming that my interpretation of Higgsy's post is in the ballpark . . . I'd like to see this directly addressed.

That's it!

Thanks for listening!

=8-)

Solar

The answer is YES to all of them owing to the fact that several different functions are inherent properties of this dynamic multifarious (multi-modal) 'structure' known as the "Heliophere"

Yes, "all of them", often seems appropriate to these complicated solar questions.

Higgsy has asked where is all the power to light the sun....good question.
mrrabbit asks the same question, with these:

"What is this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Describe this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Identify the taps of this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Describe how these taps are utilized in this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"How much voltage, wattage, current, power, etc, are these taps on this interstellar or galactic transformer good for?"

I might paraphrase as: How does the galaxy light up the sun ? What is the electric circuit ?
I DONO.
You could help figure it out.
Welcome.

We are all throwing our ideas at the wall to see what sticks.
So far, mine are bouncing off in silence.

Jack

mrrabbit wrote: ↑Thu Jan 07, 2021 1:14 am Hello All!

First an introduction...

Welcome to the forum by the way, and congrats on your first post here.

As you probably know, I personally support Birkeland's *internally* powered cathode solar model, but I'll try to address at least some of your questions about anode model.

One word:

Higgsy

Why Higgsy?

I also think it's *helpful* and useful to have "skeptics" that ask the difficult questions. It tends to keep things scientifically honest. I agree with you by the way that an honest "I don't know" is *lot* better than just "making stuff up" and inventing metaphysical concepts out of whole cloth.

Higgsy wrote: "Thank you. But this is not an answer to my question: "Do you or Wal have any idea or model for how that might work within the Sun and where we can find the currents in the solar system necessary to power the Sun electrically to the tune of 10^26W?" In other words, I am looking for evidence of these sunward electrons, a measure of their flux, a mechanism for converting them into radiation at the Sun, a means for preventing negative charge accumulation in the Sun, and calculations that show that all of this adds up to 10^26W."

FYI, I wouldn't "assume" that either Thornhill or Scott is suggesting that *all* of the sun's radiant energy necessarily comes from *external* electrons. In fact they both talk about fusion occurring near the surface which changes with the sunspot cycles, meaning at least *some* of the sun's energy (according to their model) is generated by "local" fusion processes in and around the sun. The current would supposedly drive that fusion process, but local fusion would generates energy *in/on the sun*, so at least some of the sun's radiant energy is coming from the sun itself.

Technically there's nothing to preclude an anode solar model from being entirely internally powered by fusion, however Thornhill and Scott do seem to advocate at least a partially externally powered sun without a lot of fusion happening in the core.

That above has been sticking with me for some time now, and more so the past few days.

Why?

I have a nice big massive text book behind me literally titled: "Electrical Circuit Theory"

It's not defined in whole by its discussion of a capacitor....ideal and real. Its not defined in whole by its discussion of a anode...ideal and real. Its not defined in whole by its discussion of a cathode...ideal and real. Actually, it's everything...right down to an "unknown's" applicability to a circuit based upon it's observable and measureable behavior.

In my brain, when I see and hear "The Electric Universe", what my brain processes is:

"Interstellar Electrical Circuit Theory"

Well, technically EU/PC theory is loosely (generally) differentiated from "standard" cosmology by the application of *circuit* theory to events in space, and the assumption that massive plasma threads carry current over vast distances in space, regardless of what solar model one prefers. There are *at least* three significantly unique solar models to choose from in EU/PC theory, including Birkeland's cathode solar model, Juergen's anode solar model and Alfven's "homopolar generator" model which is basically the "standard" solar model with "circuits" connecting it to the rest of the universe.

However, getting back directly to Higgsy quote, my brain is also saying the following when processing HIggsy's questions :

"What is this interstellar or galactic transformer?"

When you say "transformer", do you mean "generator"? I'd say that galaxies are essentially "transforming" whatever current flow patterns are entiering into the galactic circuits into an interwoven sent of circuits within the galaxy itself.

It you're asking where the original electrical energy might come from, Alfven makes a few suggestions which would tend to be applicable to any and every solar model. Alfven assumed that a sun is not only internally powered, and he assumed that all rotating bodies in space act as "homopolar generators", including suns and entire galaxies. The rotational spin energy of the object is slowly being converted into electrical current via induction. Alfven also assumed the existence of a matter/antimatter universe with primordial "ambiplasma' composed of electrons and positrons in space. Essentially that primordial ambiplasma could provide free electrons to the 'matter" parts of our physical universe, and provide positrons to the antimatter parts of the universe.

It's also possible that the size of the sun determines whether it's a "net generator' or "net consumer" of electrical current, with the largest stars generating excess electrical current that is "used" by smaller stars.

"Describe this interstellar or galactic transformer?"

https://www.plasma-universe.com/unipolar-inductor/

That would be an example of the electrical current patterns which are predicted by Alfven's homopolar generator model.

"Identify the taps of this interstellar or galactic transformer?"

"Describe how these taps are utilized in this interstellar or galactic transformer?"

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by a 'tap' in this instance. The universe would be 'wired' together by large scale Birkeland currents which transport energy into and out of various galaxies.

"How much voltage, wattage, current, power, etc, are these taps on this interstellar or galactic transformer good for?"

Hmmm. Well, Birkeland estimated the voltage difference between the "surface" of the sun's electrode surface and "space" was about 600 million volts, whereas Alfven estimated the working currents in the solar atmosphere to operate at around a billion volts. Wattage and current estimates would depend on how much energy one assumes is generated locally, in local fusion processes in and around the sun compared to the amount of energy flowing into the sun.

Michael Mozina wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:41 am Technically there's nothing to preclude an anode solar model from being entirely internally powered by fusion

There actually is: the law of electric charge conservation. One can't simply create positive charges (without negative counterparts) ex nihilo.

Creating the entire universe from a Big Bang though, no problem. Feel free to use the Laws as you need them, and not when you don't.

a recent comment:

"'I have a nice big massive text book behind me literally titled: "Electrical Circuit Theory"
However, getting back directly to Higgsy quote, my brain is also saying the following when processing HIggsy's questions :
"What is this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Describe this interstellar or galactic transformer?"
"Identify the taps of this interstellar or galactic transformer?"

When you can't tell whether it's science or science fiction . . . get away . . . seriously . . . run if you can!'"

Correct me if I am misunderstanding this Michael Mozina, but these remarks appear to be the result of a complete lack of familiarity with the Plasma Universe, implying instead that he expects a solid state power station to supply electric current to each and every galaxy.

This thread begins on the premise of the Plasma Universe Model, which successfully predicted the filamentary and cellular structures we see in space, revealed by radio and infrared astronomy. That is, cosmic plasma in filamentary and cellular structures at a stellar, galactic, and intergalactic scale are taken to be true, and the rest of the discussion is based on it. I have requested a couple of times on this forum on Sunward Electrons that if any one would like to dispute the premise, please start a different topic. Either on New Insights and Mad Ideas, or on Electric Universe Resources, if someone (MM?) wants to start a really good repository of full quotes from papers and publications. I can wish, can't I? (:

I mean after all, apparently Hannes Alfven has a 12' shelf of papers on plasma behavior published.

by Solar » Wed Jan 06, 2021 8:08 am:
"Part of the problem is that no matter which name one chooses to use one is only pointing toward one of several functions that occur in the interactions of an ionizing sheath within the immediate external environment. Were it a simple case of the solar system and its heliosphere drifting to the vacuum of space there would be no heliosphere. The space within which the sun moves is filled with other species of particles; a lot of which belongs to several other larger 'structures'. It is not beneficial to treat the observations as though a case of the heliosphere being a "bubble" moving in a void because simultaneously those clouds have their own collective motions in different directions as portrayed above."

That's what we're talking about. (:

According to the Plasma Universe model, if there is movement of different plasma regions in relation to each other, that produces currents in those plasmas.

• Figure 20
  https://plasmauniverse.info/graphics.WI ... aments.jpg
  "Any imbalance in the constituitive properties of plasma can set it in motion...The moving plasma, ie charged particle flows, are currents which produce self-magnetic fields, however weak. The motion of any other plasma across weak magnetic fields produces and amplifies electromotive forces, the energy of which can be transported over large distances via currents that tend to form along magnetic lines of force." ~A.Peratt

This suggests that the Birkeland current local to the Sun sustains the Sun's Langmuir sheath; but there are several morphologies that have been suggested and we only have two points of crossing, Voyagers 1 & 2. And also, we probably shouldn't expect it to hold too still.

Brigit:

That is, cosmic plasma in filamentary and cellular structures at a stellar, galactic, and intergalactic scale are taken to be true, and the rest of the discussion is based on it. I have requested a couple of times on this forum on Sunward Electrons that if any one would like to dispute the premise, please start a different topic.

In deference to this post originator I ask of Brigit:
If I agree with the premise, and agree with "Sunward Electrons" should I stay here and share my disagreements about other parts ??

As a ten year fan of the Electric Universe I have yet to see the complete electric circuit.
In his 14 year old book, on page 114, Dr Scott asks "What is the exact circuit diagram ?
Brigit:

No circuit, no double layers.

And to Michael Mozina, who champions an electric circuit sun, as does Brigit, but in reverse polarity.
If the heliosheath electrode connects to the interstellar medium, how does the sun electrode connect to a different voltage
and where does this connection take place ?
I "see" double layers but not the completed circuit.
Therefore, I see an electric cellular solar system completely inside the interstellar medium.
Jack.