Thunderbolts Forum v3.0

Brigit wrote: ↑Thu Dec 24, 2020 9:31 pm 2/2
Nice eye. We don't want to whistle past the heliosheath. (It isn't the only double layer in the discharge, either.)

As every one has already noticed, we are actually all talking about three different objects, by the same name.

The heliosheath that Higgsy is referring to is a kinetic model based on velocity and such.
In the Plasma Universe the heliosheath is a plasma double layer. And
The Electric Universe picks up where the Plasma Universe leaves off, and the plasma double layer heliosheath also serves as a "virtual electrode" to the anode sun.

Your promised explanation of the anode Sun model and how it gets 10^26W of power electrically hasn't moved on for ten days. Below is my summary of your position as presented up to Thursday 17th December. I can't see that you have made any further substantive statement since then, except the assertion that electrons beyond the heliosheath are streaming towards the Sun radially, for which I have requested a reference in a separate post:

Summary on 26th December 2020
1. A proposition that a double layer at the heliopause is a cathode for the electric Sun
2. The volume of the heliosphere is really big
3. The electron density outside the heliopause seems to double or treble in the first few AU after crossing to the ISM from about 0.05 electrons per cm^3 to about 0.12 electrons per cm^3 at about 23AU.
4. Double layers exist and sometimes carry current and accelerate ions and electrons between the layers
5. The heliopause travels through the ISM encountering electrons. What will they do?
(6. Metals in the Universe being produced by nuclear fusion in the photosphere and chromosphere of stars is proposed as a bare assertion without physical justification)
7. An assertion that electrons beyond the heliopause stream radially towards the Sun (evidence for this assertion has been requested).

There have been questions raised about whether there is a plasma double layer at the heliosheath, how it got there, and how it is sustained and does not short out.

In the Plasma Universe, the universe is made of 99.9% matter in the plasma state. The plasma is inhomogeneous -- it is made up of plasmas of differing temperatures, magnetization, degree of ionization, chemical constituency, and relative motion. Transition regions or double layers form between cells and filaments of differing plasma types. Since the heliosheath is the boundary between the Sun's electrical environment and the interstellar medium, a plasma sheath is formed between the differing plasmas. See the ion thruster in Fig 12 for example.

As the double layer is the first step in your argument (no. 1 above), could you quantify the key elements of this double layer, for example, how thick is it, what is the voltage drop across it, how is this double layer maintained (I know how double layers in general form, but how is this one maintained), what is the potential and electric field as one traverses the DL and so on?

Higgsy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:49 pmYour promised explanation of the anode Sun model and how it gets 10^26W of power electrically hasn't moved on for ten days.

Maybe theories take time to develop. For example, your explanation in the other thread of the workings of the dark matter that balances whole galaxies hasn't moved on in a week either.

Given the respective scales and complexities, let's propose to continue not leaping to cosmological solutions before they're hatched. Because what shape would we be in then, fabricating energy and matter themselves?

JHL wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:43 am

Higgsy wrote: ↑Sat Dec 26, 2020 6:49 pmYour promised explanation of the anode Sun model and how it gets 10^26W of power electrically hasn't moved on for ten days.

Maybe theories take time to develop. For example, your explanation in the other thread of the workings of the dark matter that balances whole galaxies hasn't moved on in a week either.

In that thread I pointed out that the gravitational models, which are supported by multiple lines of independent evidence, produce structues in numerical simulations that are almost indistinguishable from observations. No other theory comes remotely close to fitting the complete set of observations and known physics (do you have one?), although there is some hope for alternative theories of gravity. What more is there to be said? What point is my saying anything to you as your posts never seem to contain any physics content, and you refuse to engage with the actual answers I give you.

So far as this thread goes it results from this exchange on another sub-forum:

Birgit wrote:

Higgsy wrote:Do you or Wal have any idea or model for how that might work within the Sun and where we can find the currents in the solar system necessary to power the Sun electrically to the tune of 10^26W?

I will show you the calcs in a moment, but first I'd like to tell you that the currents they are speaking of do not only power the sun, they power the galaxies.

Sounds like Birgit had some calcs all ready but the "I will show you the calcs in a moment" appears to be taking weeks if not months.

paladin17:

One issue I have with the idea that heliosheath (or heliopause) is a double layer is that in this case, according to Alfven (see also here), it should disrupt magnetic field lines. But it is not observed: instead, the magnetic field beyond these boundaries (as we've briefly discussed in a neighboring topic) retains its toroidal direction.

From the Voyager 2 article abstract you offered:

The magnetic field direction observed by Voyager 2 changed smoothly from the time of arrival at the magnetic barrier, through it, and onwards into the interstellar medium, with a small (a few degrees) or no change across the heliopause.

I focus on " should disrupt magnetic field lines" and "changed smoothly."
Are these not in general or rough agreement ?
Are the magnetic fields not different ?
Perhaps you might expand or discuss that more please.

Also,

So the outer boundary of Sol must be a current sheet, not a double layer

A double layer lends itself to a spherical shape, But what might a current sheet look like, in terms of direction, on or near a sphere ?

I am thinking of the heliospheric current sheet; the waves of which become higher in amplitude and closer to each other, as in a higher frequency per distance (see the extended version of a Parker spiral illustration as it reaches the heliopause.)
Could this current sheet be mistakenly substituted for a double layer, which may occur over the entire heliopause; due to its (the current sheet's) termination at the double layer/heliopause. ??

Then what comes next, The Bubbles ???
jack

jacmac wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:10 am

The magnetic field direction observed by Voyager 2 changed smoothly from the time of arrival at the magnetic barrier, through it, and onwards into the interstellar medium, with a small (a few degrees) or no change across the heliopause.

I focus on " should disrupt magnetic field lines" and "changed smoothly."
Are these not in general or rough agreement ?
Are the magnetic fields not different ?
Perhaps you might expand or discuss that more please.

In my books "changed smoothly" or even "no change across the heliopause" at all means no discontinuities such as double layers.

jacmac wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:10 am A double layer lends itself to a spherical shape, But what might a current sheet look like, in terms of direction, on or near a sphere ?

Well, simply a current that is flowing on a spherical (or quasi-spherical) surface. See Earth's bow shock as an example. Or this picture of Mars (from a recent paper).

Higgsy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:21 amSounds like Birgit had some calcs all ready but the "I will show you the calcs in a moment" appears to be taking weeks if not months.

Actually, Brigit doesn't live here like some of the other lurkers. And she can quite often vanish for weeks or months on end before suddenly reappearing and resuming posting as if she never left.

Higgsy wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 2:21 am In that thread I pointed out that the gravitational models, which are supported by multiple lines of independent evidence, produce structues in numerical simulations that are almost indistinguishable from observations. No other theory comes remotely close to fitting the complete set of observations and known physics (do you have one?), although there is some hope for alternative theories of gravity.

Not to derail this thread, folks, but in that thread Higgsy did yet another drive-by to holler that because the equation involving magic invisible matter and magic invisible energy was made to fit the universe both were validated. Make a formula to prove the universe, in other words, and double check your work by making a universe to fit the formula.

That says nothing of another theory here in this thread, of course, although I wouldn't be surprised to find another enormous leap of logic related to the next time it became handy to "prove" a standard model by way of writing an equation that tacitly resembles it.

As you were; apologies for the thread-jack. This has been your friendly neighborhood reminder what metaphysical science looks like...

JHL wrote: ↑Sun Dec 27, 2020 12:07 pm Not to derail this thread, folks...

You already did.

My reply is in the original thread.

paladin17

Pioneer 10 has 8.6 degrees, New Horizons has 9.3 degrees, Pioneer 11 has 17.4 degrees. Compare that to 38.1 degrees of Voyager 1, 72.1 degrees of Voyager 2 and 79.5 degrees of Ulysses.

Thank you.

Brigit seems to have disappeared. She promised to explain how the Sun gets its 10^26W from sunward electrons in the anode electric Sun model. I'll explain in a minute, she said. It's so disappointing as now, it seems, we'll never know. After many weeks the explanation had got this far:

Summary on 26th December 2020
1. A proposition that a double layer at the heliopause is a cathode for the electric Sun
2. The volume of the heliosphere is really big
3. The electron density outside the heliopause seems to double or treble in the first few AU after crossing to the ISM from about 0.05 electrons per cm^3 to about 0.12 electrons per cm^3 at about 23AU.
4. Double layers exist and sometimes carry current and accelerate ions and electrons between the layers
5. The heliopause travels through the ISM encountering electrons. What will they do?
(6. Metals in the Universe being produced by nuclear fusion in the photosphere and chromosphere of stars is proposed as a bare assertion without physical justification)
7. An assertion that electrons beyond the heliopause stream radially towards the Sun (evidence for this assertion has been requested).

Does anyone else want to pick it up from here, or do we need to wait for Brigit?

Higgsy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:40 pm Brigit seems to have disappeared. She promised to explain how the Sun gets its 10^26W from sunward electrons in the anode electric Sun model. I'll explain in a minute, she said. It's so disappointing as now, it seems, we'll never know.

Is there a time limit? I ask because unless I'm mistaken dark matter was postulated in the early thirties by the guy who invented a cloud of self-spawing icy comets - where none have been shown and while apparently none of them have yet to be ice - with the unique ability to target just earth.

When does such a theory time out, exactly? Asking because the rules for cosmology seem different somehow.

Who knows; maybe Brigit is super-computerizing a perfectly rational substitute for physical evidence at this very moment, that being the way science is done these days.

I hereby postulate that having violated its own subsequent laws in order to exist, the universe must be powered by an endless web of extra-dimensional wormholes that all terminate in the cores of stars. Either that or Heisenberg shows that in an unimaginably energetic universe there is no energy because quantum fluctuations prove that the universe is actually a zero environment because stuff appears and disappears all the time, which is all sorts of plausible because my refrigerator just reappeared in said Oort Cloud.

I'm pleased to announce that I have instead a nice ball of ice hovering where it used to be. Give it a few billion years and this will be Waterworld. Science!

May the research commence, and someone set up a gofundme to keep it well-financed.

Higgsy, what model of the electron do you favour?

I hope every one here had a wonderful Christmas and I see you all had happy beginning of this new year. If we suppose human happiness to include arguing about the beautiful plasma instabilities we call home. Which I do!



by JHL » Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:28 am

Higgsy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:40 am
"Brigit seems to have disappeared. She promised to explain how the Sun gets its 10^26W from sunward electrons in the anode electric Sun model. I'll explain in a minute, she said. It's so disappointing as now, it seems, we'll never know."

"Is there a time limit? I ask because unless I'm mistaken dark matter was postulated in the early thirties by the guy who invented a cloud of self-spawning icy comets - where none have been shown and while apparently none of them have yet to be ice - with the unique ability to target just earth.

When does such a theory time out, exactly? Asking because the rules for cosmology seem different somehow.

Who knows; maybe Brigit is super-computerizing a perfectly rational substitute for physical evidence at this very moment, that being the way science is done these days."

I would never do such a thing, JHL. I hope you will take my word for it. In fact, to be absolutely honest, the young lad on youtube who built a discharge tube from a glass bottle to film the changing plasmas surrounding the anode is much more interesting and far more useful to this discussion, for my part. Not to ignore the important insights gained from the particle-in-cell simulations of the plasma physicists -- but those are not "substitutes for physical evidence," they are just scientific diagrams that move.

What they visually describe is the filamentary and cellular formations of plasma, already known from the lab, but shown in cosmic plasma. These in turn have been detected by radio telescopes; see for example fig 15 and fig 16 pg 3, where clusters of galaxies "comprise a vast filamentary structure, with typical scales measured in billions of light years."

• Figure 17
  https://earth-chronicles.com/wp-content ... /fsdvf.jpg
  "The ALMA telescope complex made beautiful galactic filament photos in the Orion Nebula. This is one of the few telescopes that are technically able to make a similar picture....The images were made thanks to the complex of radio telescopes “Atakama Large Millimeter Range” (Atacama Large Millimeter / submillimeter Array – ALMA).
  Galactic threads are long jets of cold gas, from which new stars form....In the photo, the study shows the accumulation of filaments in the Orion Nebula, which is located at a distance of 1350 light years from Earth. This is the region of star formation closest to the Earth, which makes the nebula as convenient for studying the processes occurring at the birth and development of the stars."

And it is within a local filament that our local cellular double layer resides.

• Figure 18
  https://www.holoscience.com/wp/wp-conte ... onment.jpg
  The circuit supplying DC electrical power to the Sun. The solar cycle is controlled by variability in its local galactic Z-pinch.

by Higgsy » Sat Dec 26, 2020 7:21 pm

"So far as this thread goes it results from this exchange on another sub-forum:

Higgsy wrote:
Do you or Wal have any idea or model for how that might work within the Sun and where we can find the currents in the solar system necessary to power the Sun electrically to the tune of 10^26W?
Brigit wrote:
I will show you the calcs in a moment, but first I'd like to tell you that the currents they are speaking of do not only power the sun, they power the galaxies.

Sounds like Birgit had some calcs all ready but the "I will show you the calcs in a moment" appears to be taking weeks if not months."

As we agreed earlier, we take it as axiomatic that the plasma pervading the visible and invisible universe takes filamentary and cellular forms at the planetary, galactic, and intergalactic scales. These are bounded by plasma double layers which can radiate in all frequencies across the em spectrum. In this model, it is a plasma filament pair which powers the galaxy, and in turn, smaller filaments of star forming regions are found within the galaxy (see for example fig 16 and fig 17).

• Figure 19
  https://public.nrao.edu/wp-content/uplo ... 70x600.jpg
  "As a natural extension of the size hierarchy in cosmic plasmas, the existence of galactic dimensioned Birkeland currents or filaments was hypothesized (Alfven & Falthammer, 1963; Peratt, 1986). A galactic magnetic field in the order of
  
  • B(Galactic) = 10^-9 - 10^-10T
  associated with a galactic dimension of 10^20 - 10^21m suggests that the galactic current be of the order of
  • I(Galactic) = 10^17 - 10^19A."
  A.Peratt

It is proposed that the Sun partakes of the filamentary electric current where it was formed (see fig 18).

I don't deny that Higgsy's time is very valuable and we now continue to look at this very intriguing region of space, the heliosheath/heliopause.
And is the Sun surrounded by its own Langmuir sheath, a plasma double layer?

What shall we call this beautiful and awe-inspiring astrophysical object? --For the sake of brevity I have called the double layer the heliosheath, but that does not mean I am referring to the same heliosheath as in the conventional model. I am sure someone could object but please make another suggestion.

No. I am sorry. STEVE is taken.

Steve! lol