Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Brigit]

@moses

Hello moses, I am sorry I did not get back to you. I just noticed again your remark about gigantism!

[nick c]

Did Velikovsky suggest that the mountains were folded relatively rapidly by plate tectonics? Or is there another cause of rapid uplift he had in mind?

Earth In Upheaval was written before plate tectonics became the standard for geology. The acceptance of plate tectonics does not change the position of catastrophists concerning mountain formation. As with most things in this arena it comes down to the underlying assumption of uniformitarianism vs catastrophism.

Is it reasonable to assume that the geologic processes observed today have proceeded uninterrupted for eons?

So the present consensus geological interpretation of plate tectonics is that movements are measured in inches per millenia, that is that mountains rise at a rate that is imperceptible to humans. Catastrophist (or more correctly neo- catastrophists) interpret the plates themselves as a broken shell covering the Earth - the result of past stresses from external forces exerted upon the planet. Geologic movements of plates were accelerated during those planetary interactions.

[Lloyd]

38253

The following video suggests that the ancient advanced polygonal megalithic structures around the world were built by the same people at different times as they moved from one location to another. It suggests that they originated at or near Gobekli Tepi and moved to Persia and India, then to Mexico, Peru, Easter Island and finally New Zealand just 800 years ago or so. It suggests that Tiahuanaco was ancient when the people went to Peru, so those structures would be much older. Other sources said Tiahuanaco was built by an Egyptian colony.

*The Megalithic Culture: Their Final Journey from Peru to Easter Island | Ancient Architects
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq1VuVoL0_Q

[Lloyd]

Nick said: "Does anyone know where Ralph Juergens suggested that Saturn was originally a brown dwarf that was captured by the Sun?"

I thought Wal Thornhill was the first to suggest that Saturn was previously a brown dwarf star, maybe in the 90s, like in Thoth.

In the 2000 issue 4:1 at https://www.saturniancosmology.org/file ... otiv01.txt he said this.
"In the last few years a new class of faint stars has been discovered. They are called L-Type Brown Dwarfs because the element lithium appears in their spectra. They are the most numerous stellar objects in the galaxy and bridge the gap between stars and Jupiter-sized planets. They are too small to be shining from internal thermonuclear power. A further puzzle is that they radiate blue and ultraviolet light even though they are cool at a temperature around 950K. Water molecules dominate their spectra."

Earlier in the Dec 31, 1998 issue of Thoth at https://www.saturniancosmology.org/file ... 998.20.txt HAROLD TRESMAN said "it is my belief that Jupiter was originally erupted from proto-Saturn" and Thornhill said "That has always been an interesting possibility because it adds weight to proto-Saturn having been a brown dwarf star. The more mass the better for that argument. It also overcomes the objection that Saturn was unlikely to have entered the solar system in practically the same plane as the orbits of the other giant planets".

Juergens died in about 1979, and brown dwarfs had not been discovered by then."

This https://www.britannica.com/science/brown-dwarf says "Brown dwarfs were first hypothesized in 1963"; "Jill Tarter proposed the name 'brown dwarf' in 1975". "Searches for brown dwarfs in the 1980s and 1990s found several candidates; however, none was confirmed as a brown dwarf." "In 1995 ... Astronomers at the University of California, Berkeley, observed lithium in an object in the Pleiades". It "was later accepted as the first binary brown dwarf."

At Catastrophism.com I found this article from 1988 and an excerpt:
Solar System Studies (Part 2) [Aeon]
"... to have formerly been a nearly spherical satellite of Saturn, circling the giant orb in about 28 days, with a slow spin and the same side of the Earth always facing Saturn. Proto-Saturn is vast in comparison to Earth and perhaps much larger than the body we know today. Consider it about the smallest possible red dwarf star or a brown dwarf star, and it is dying. For eons it had sustained by radiant energy the spark of life on its largest planet Earth and possibly also on its second largest planet Mars, revolving on an inner orbit. The huge orb of Saturn lies in the equatorial plane of Earth, and to the observer on Earth it appears as ...."

Then there's this.
"Nemesis" -- A New Idea as Old as the Bible? [Catastrophism & Ancient History] (Feb. 1985)
"... unprecedented impetus to the scholarly debate - still raging - was a series of studies in the British scientific weekly, Nature, and especially its Vol. 308 (issue of April 19, 1984) and Vol.311 (October 18). Initially, the hypothesis put forward was that a companion star to our Sun, a so-called 'brown dwarf' passing in a certain part of the heavens (the 'Oort Cloud') at a certain angle, triggers an avalanche of comets that cause on Earth mass extinctions every 26 million years (as evidenced by fossil records). Later on, the possibility was raised that we are confronted not by a companion star but by'"

[Lloyd]

Okay, Nick, finally, I find you were right according to this.
Prelude to Creation (Aeon Volume VI, Number 5) (Jul 2004)
... proto-Saturn's plasmasphere would eventually come in contact with the Sun's heliosphere. At first both plasmaspheres would have brushed against each other as proto-Saturn spiraled slowly in. And that is when the fireworks began. The hypothesis that proto-Saturn, with Earth in tow, had been an "outside" system which was later captured by the Sun owes its origin to Ralph Juergens.[34] It was he, back in 1977, who claimed that, in such an encounter, the Sun would steal Saturn's fire.[35] "Up to this moment Saturn, as a diminutive star, may have been further along in the process of becoming [electrically] charged to local galactic space potential

So, if anyone has that issue of Aeon, they can check reference 34 or 35 to see where Juergens said that. I guess it had to be in Pensee' or Kronos.

[nick c]

Lloyd, thanks for finding that. Juergens' insight was amazing. I am sure he was inspired to his conclusion by Velikovsky's reference in 1950 In WIC that Jupiter and Saturn are "dark stars" of which some similar object could be captured by the Sun and enter the solar system causing havoc.
Juergens died in 1979 and Brown Dwarfs were first discovered in the late 1980's.

However, Brown Dwarfs were theorized to exist in the 1960's and the name "Brown Dwarf" was coined in 1975, by which time they were thought to be fairly common objects, whose detection was beyond the range of contemporary instrumentation.

According to Cardona in footnote 34 in Prelude To Creation, Aeon VI:5, Juergens theorized the Saturn/Brown Dwarf connection in "Juergens Replies" to "The Critics and Stellar Energy", SIS Review II:2 (December, 1977).

[Lloyd]

38534

SEDIMENTARY ROCKS, BASINS, ICE AGE, LOESS, ESKERS

OLDEST SEDIMENTARY ROCKS
Isua Sequence
The oldest-known sedimentary rocks on the Earth comprise the 3.8-billion-year-old Isua Sequence of southwestern Greenland. The rocks were once sediments formed by chemical precipitation from ocean water. Intermittent eruptions from nearby volcanoes added other sediment layers.
__THESE SO-CALLED OLDEST SEDIMENTARY ROCKS WERE LIKELY DEPOSITED IN THE EARLY STAGES OF THE GREAT FLOOD, IMO.

SEDIMENTARY BASINS
https://www.wattsgeophysics.co.uk/resea ... ary-basins
Sedimentary basins are regions of the Earth's crust dominated by subsidence. The subsidence provides the depocentre for sediments such as sandstones, mudrocks, and limestones to accumulate, in some cases to a thickness >10 km. Each continent has sedimentary basins, including Antarctica. The deepest basins (>15 km) are found in the southern Caspian Sea and in the western Gulf of Mexico. Sedimentary rocks are important because they are the "tape recorder" of past climate, sea-level and environmental change. They are also the world's largest repositories of oil and gas.
__A CREATIONIST ARTICLE FOUND THAT THE BASINS DID NOT SIMPLY "SUBSIDE", BUT WERE FORMED BY LARGE METEOR IMPACTS DURING THE GREAT FLOOD.

__HERE'S A PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION OF THE ICE AGE, IMO, WHICH CAME AFTER THE FLOOD.
ICE AGE
Chapter 16. What about ice ages?
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter16.pdf
Vardiman24 has shown, using standard knowledge of atmospheric circulation, that the warm oceans after the Flood and the large rates of cooling at the poles would have driven extreme atmospheric convection. This would have created an enormous polar hurricane-like storm system covering a large portion of the Arctic. This, he suggests, could have functioned for much of the 500-year period up to the glacial maximum (see next section). Such circulation patterns would have delivered to the higher latitudes the vast amounts of snow that would have quickly become ice sheets, spreading firstly over the continents, and then later over the oceans as the water cooled down towards the end of the glacial period.

__THIS IS A PLAUSIBLE ALTERNATIVE TO CARDONA'S EXPLANATION OF LOESS.
LOESS
Loess problems
https://creation.com/loess-problems
_How is loess produced?
Fourth, how is loess produced? There are now several other mechanisms besides glacial grinding suggested for the formation of loess. These mechanisms include wind abrasion, weathering, frost weathering, salt weathering and fluvial abrasion. However, experiments in the formation of silt particles have demonstrated that these other mechanisms are either ineffective or too slow, except for fluvial abrasion of mixed-size sediment:
_‘The tumbling of sand alone in water resulted in very little comminution or silt production … However, the addition of gravel-sized ceramic spheres to simulate a mixed-size sediment load in a turbulent, high-energy fluvial environment, produced rapid comminution and particle size reduction.’24
Based on a table of the amount of silt and the time needed to produce it, fluvial tumbling with mixed-sized sediment rapidly produced a large volume of silt, while wind abrasion was a distant second.25
_‘Finally, a recent geochemical and isotopic study of loess deposits by Gallet et al. (1998) revealed that all loess particles must have experienced at least one cycle of aquatic transport.’27
_Furthermore, sponge spicules have been found in the ‘loess’.33 Harold Coffin collected sponge spicules, likely marine, at all nineteen locations sampled within the Palouse ‘loess’ of southeast Washington.34 The lower layers of the Palouse silt are layered, and rounded gravel is also found at some locations within the silt.33
_This evidence suggests that the lower portions of many silt and sand deposits on the surface of the earth likely were laid down in the very last moments of the Flood. This material was subsequently reworked during the dry, deglacial phase of the Ice Age. This reworking can explain the fact that loess contains some Ice Age mammals.
_A further implication is that the Flood/post-Flood boundary is in the late Cenozoic in the loess source areas, in particular in the early to mid Pleistocene, such as in the Palouse ‘loess’ and probably in the Chinese loess.

ESKERS
__ESKERS ARE LINES OF SAND & GRAVEL 100 FEET WIDE OR MORE THAT GO UP & DOWN HILLS. THEY APPARENTLY FORMED WITHIN GLACIER MELTWATER TUNNELS. BUT I HAVEN'T FIGURED OUT WHERE THE SAND & GRAVEL WOULD HAVE ERODED FROM. I DON'T THINK WATER WOULD HAVE FLOWED UPHILL IN THE TUNNELS VERY EASILY & THE SEDIMENTS WOULD LESS LIKELY HAVE FLOWED UPHILL. SEEMS MORE LIKELY THAT THE TUNNELS WERE ON A SLOPE WITHIN THE ICE & ABOVE THE GROUND, SO THE WATER WOULD NOT HAVE HAD TO BE FORCED UPHILL MUCH. THE FOLLOWING HAS A MAP OF CANADIAN ESKERS AT FIGURE 6.
Morphometry and pattern of a large sample (>20,000) of Canadian eskers and implications for subglacial drainage beneath ice sheets
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9114003618
__EXCERPT FROM THE ARTICLE:
_A seminal paper by Clark and Walder (1994), showed that eskers formed by the LIS and European Ice Sheets are prolific on the more resistant crystalline shield rocks and rare over less resistant sedimentary, and potentially deformable, substrates.
_Observations of eskers ending abruptly over relatively rigid Devonian carbonates in western Canada led Grasby and Chen (2005) to suggest that esker distribution in Canada is controlled by bedrock permeability, where preferential subglacial recharge through carbonate outcrop belts inhibits esker formation as water is readily drained through the subsurface. In contrast, the low-permeability rocks of the Canadian Shield enable high pressure water to exist at the base of the ice sheet, and thus form eskers.

__THIS PAPER SUGGESTS THAT EARTHQUAKES WERE INVOLVED IN FORMING ESKERS, IF I UNDERSTAND IT CORRECTLY. THAT COULD MEAN IMPACTS TOO, WHICH COULD CAUSE EARTHQUAKES.
Global and Planetary Change
Volume 69, Issues 1–2, October 2009, Pages 16-28
Glacial geomorphology in Utsjoki, Finnish Lapland proposes Younger Dryas fault-instability
Author links open overlay panel Raimo Sutinen, Matti Piekkari, Maarit Middleton
raimo.sutinen@gtk.fi -- matti.piekkari@gtk.fi -- maarit.middleton@gtk.fi
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.gloplacha.2009.07.002
Northern Fennoscandia has experienced high-magnitude postglacial fault (PGF) events, yet the role of seismic tremors in subglacial deformations and meltwater discharge has remained obscure. We studied glacial geomorphology in Utsjoki, Finnish Lapland, an area characterized by the Utsjoki drumlin field fanning out north and northeast to the Younger Dryas End Moraines (YDEMs) in northern Norway. Paleolandslides were common on fells (i.e. mountains shaped by Pleistocene glaciations) and were formed in nunatak position evidencing fault-instability in app. 11,900 calibrated (cal) BP. An anastomosing network of eskers was found throughout Utsjoki, and was probably generated through short-lived sliding bed stages during the discharge of subglacial lake(s). The formation of networks is different from time-transgressive evolution of single-ridged eskers in arborescent (treelike) systems. The most probable triggering mechanism for the meltwater outburst(s) was an earthquake tremor(s) associated with fault-instability during the late and post-Younger Dryas (YD). The alignment of the esker network was inconsistent with parallel-to-iceflow streamlining and the eskers erode or superimpose drumlins. Hence the esker network post-dates the streamlining. In some cases, hummocky (Pulju) moraine was observed to coexist with esker network and peculiar ‘kettle’ and ‘liquefaction’ features. We propose that glacio-seismotectonic events contributed not only to landslides but were also the primary force behind subglacial evolution of esker networks and possibly even hummocky moraine.

__I GUESS THE NEXT ABSTRACT IS ONE OF THE FIRST ONES ON THE NEWER IDEAS ABOUT ESKERS BACK IN THE EIGHTIES.
Glaciodynamics of the Younger Dryas Marginal Zone in Scandinavia: Implications of a Revised Glaciation Model
Jan Lundqvist
Geografiska Annaler. Series A, Physical Geography
Vol. 69, No. 2 (1987), pp. 305-319 (15 pages)
https://doi.org/10.2307/521191
https://www.jstor.org/stable/521191
Abstract
The author discusses the glacial episodes in the Baltic area during the Younger Dryas time in the light of the model of Denton & Hughes presented in the final report of the CLIMAP project. The model implies a main, warm-based ice dome in the Gulf of Bothnia. The following sequence of events and their causes are discussed. 1. Bölling-Alleröd deglaciation reached north of the Younger Dryas marginal zone. 2. When the receding ice margin passed the Billingen area, South Sweden, the Baltic Ice Lake was lowered to the ocean level. 3. At the beginning of the Younger Dryas time the thinning of the Barents Sea ice resulted in an intense outflow of icebergs into the North Atlantic. 4. This outflow caused a cooling of the North Atlantic climate and a lowering of the ice dome over the Gulf of Bothnia. 5. The lowered Gulf of Bothnia dome began to collapse. 6. Advancing lobes from the Gulf of Bothnia dome reached the outermost Younger Dryas limit. They were characterized by a marginal zone with compressive, divergent flow, behind which the flow was extending. 7. The climatic deterioration caused expansion of ice spreading from the Scandinavian mountain range. 8. The advancing ice in the west blocked the passage between the ocean and the Baltic basin, and the Baltic Ice Lake was redammed. 9. The marginal zone broke up as dead-ice, and through it the Baltic Ice Lake was finally drained. 10. Because of the lowering of the lake level the ice lobes were grounded and a slower, more continuous recession of their fronts started. 11. The changes of water level in the Baltic basin had created basal crevasses in the ice in which debris could form De Geer moraines. Along the crevasses tabular icebergs were broken off. 12. In interlobe areas glaciofluvial sediments accumulated in crevasse systems to form broad eskers and deltas.

[Lloyd]

39002

COMPARING CREATION.COM WITH CARDONA: FLOOD OR SATURN FLARE

SEDIMENTARY BASINS FORMED BY IMPACTS

_Creation.com and Cardona probably agreed that impacts caused basins, but Cardona thought Saturn Flares produced the meteors that made the impacts. Creation.com doesn't seem to discuss the origin of the meteors. Previously I quoted a conventional geology article that claims that sedimentary basins are due to subsidence, but they can't explain the cause of subsidence.
_This article and excerpts explain why basins are likely formed by impacts: https://creation.com/large-cratonic-basins
_"The crater represents a quick loss of part of the crust forming an instant basin without much stretching of the lithosphere surrounding the basin. Subsidence of basins is one of the basic features of basins that cannot be explained by uniformitarian scientists. In the case of an impact origin, no subsidence is needed to form the basin; an instant circular ‘hole’ in the ground is blasted out. Subsidence or uplift may occur after the basin is filled with sediments."
_"Figure 2. Schematic of the thinned crust and uplifted Moho, the boundary between the crust and mantle, typically beneath an impact crater right after formation."
_I wonder why the Moho uplifts under impact basins. I guess it's because the mantle under the Moho tends to move upward where there are holes in the crust to fill those holes.

PETROLEUM FORMED FROM MARINE ALGAE BURIED IN THE GREAT FLOOD

_Cardona may have thought petroleum came from Saturn Flares, though I need to review his material to be sure about that. Creation.com explains the origin of petroleum as follows at least in part.
_See https://creation.com/south-caspian-basin-flood-boundary
_In total, the South Caspian Basin contains up to 17 km of Tertiary (Paleogene and Neogene) sedimentary rocks (figure 1), spread across a width of about 480 km (300 mi) and a surface area of about 181,000 km2 (figure 2).16 To our knowledge, this is one of the thickest deposits of Tertiary sediment anywhere in the world.
_Indeed, the Miocene marine rocks in the South Caspian Basin are the source rocks for much of the oil produced in the vicinity. These rocks have been studied by oil and gas companies and found to contain tremendous volumes of buried marine algae; some of these shales contain up to 12.39% TOC (total organic carbon).15
_Ref. 15. Ulmishek, G.F., Petroleum geology and resources of the Middle Caspian Basin, former Soviet Union, U.S. Geological Survey Bulletin 2201-A, U.S. Department of the Interior, 2001.
_Ref. 16. Dyman, T.S., Litinsky, V.A., and Ulmishek, G.F., Geology and natural gas potential of deep sedimentary basins in the former Soviet Union, U.S. Geological Survey Open-File Report 99-381, U.S. Department of the Interior, 1981.

ICE AGE & ARCTIC MUCK, LOESS ETC

_Cardona thought there was a polar vortex below the Saturn system (which was over the north pole) and the vortex formed the Arctic muck by uprooting vegetation and animals and soil etc and mixing them altogether and smashing them into pieces and depositing them many meters thick in the Arctic. I think he thought loess formed from Saturn flare debris. In my previous post I quoted this article, https://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter16.pdf/, which said "warm oceans after the Flood and the large rates of cooling at the poles would have driven extreme atmospheric convection. This would have created an enormous polar hurricane-like storm system covering a large portion of the Arctic." So both agree that there were strong hurricane-like winds in the Arctic, which formed the muck
_Quoting again from the article in my last post, https://creation.com/loess-problems/ said "How is loess produced? ... There are now several other mechanisms besides glacial grinding suggested for the formation of loess. These mechanisms include wind abrasion, weathering, frost weathering, salt weathering and fluvial abrasion. However, experiments in the formation of silt particles have demonstrated that these other mechanisms are either ineffective or too slow, except for fluvial abrasion of mixed-size sediment: ‘The tumbling of sand alone in water resulted in very little comminution or silt production … However, the addition of gravel-sized ceramic spheres to simulate a mixed-size sediment load in a turbulent, high-energy fluvial environment, produced rapid comminution and particle size reduction.’24
Based on a table of the amount of silt and the time needed to produce it, fluvial tumbling with mixed-sized sediment rapidly produced a large volume of silt, while wind abrasion was a distant second.25"
_Ref. 25. Artyushkov, ref. 13, p. 192.
_Ref. 13. Artyushkov, E.V., Role of crustal stretching on subsidence of the continental crust, Tectonophysics 215(1–2):187–207, 1992 | DOI:10.1016/0040-1951(92)90081-G.
_So it looks like the Great Flood produced most of the loess, but some of it may have formed afterward during the "Ice Age" due to the strong winds that occurred then. Cardona thought Ice Ages occurred before the Great Flood, but I've concluded for over a year that the conventional dating of the Ice Ages, Younger Dryas etc are wrong by several thousand years and that they were much more recent. And I agree with Creation.com that the Ice Age came after the Flood.

REMAINING MYSTERIES: ESKERS & TIAHUANACO

Yes, these two items remain difficult for me to explain. I'll keep my eyes open.

[Lloyd]

39456

I FINALLY UNDERSTAND ESKERS PROBABLY

I'M QUOTING: Quaternary Glaciations in Illinois
https://isgs.illinois.edu/outreach/geol ... s-illinois
_The Glacier Advances ... — As the glacier (G) spreads out from its ice snowfield accumulation center, it scours (SC) the soil and rock surface and quarries (Q)—pushes and plucks up—chunks of bedrock. The materials are mixed into the ice and make up the glacier’s “load.” Where roughness in the terrain slows or stops flow (F), the ice “current” slides up over the blocked ice on innumerable shear planes (S). Shearing thoroughly mixes the load. As the glacier spreads, long cracks called “crevasses” (C) open parallel to the direction of ice flow. The glacier melts as it flows forward, and its melt-water erodes the terrain in front of the ice, deepening (D) some old valleys before ice covers them. Meltwater washes away some of the load freed by melting and deposits it on the outwash plane (OP). The advancing glacier overrides its outwash and in places scours much of it up again. The glacier may be 5,000 or so feet thick in Canada and tapers to the margin, which was probably in the range of several hundred feet above the old terrain.
_[[Then the glacier melts.]] Meltwater deposits are found not only in the area once covered by the glaciers but also in areas far beyond it. Meltwater streams ran off the top of the glacier, in crevices within the ice, and under the ice. In some places, the cobble-gravel-sand filling of the bed of a stream that flowed within or under the ice is preserved as a sinuous ridge called an esker. Some eskers in Illinois are made up of sandy, silty, gravelly deposits and contain mass-wasted diamicton material. Cone-shaped mounds of coarse outwash, called kames, were formed where meltwater plunged through crevasses in the ice.

SUMMARY
_I previously didn't understand how the esker debris (gravel, sand, silt etc) got onto glaciers and formed into sinuous lines of debris. The above says as glaciers advance, they pick up such material from the ground. I think the glacier front has lobes and the debris goes into the line between two lobes. When the glacier melts, the line of debris is dropped onto the ground, so the line can go up and down hills, because it was up within the glacial ice. In the maps of eskers that I linked to earlier, you can see that the eskers formed at the margins of the glaciers, even though they are up to a couple hundred miles long. I suppose the long esker lines indicate rapid melting of the glaciers. The amount of material in the glaciers deposited as eskers, moraines, etc, may indicate how fast the glaciers formed and flowed forward. The more material/debris left behind, the faster the glaciers formed, I think.

NOW I'M QUOTING CARDONA IN FLARE STAR
[ESKERS]
[SAHARA GLACIATION]
pp. 72-73
glacial signatures have been discovered in that African region which today is covered by the mostly barren wastes of the Sahara desert.1a Among these are glacial striations in the bedrock of southern Algeria where, in some cases, they stretch for hundreds of miles;1b erratic boulders, some of which still bear glacial scratch marks;2 and eskers - long but relatively gravel ridges - one of which snakes along the desert for thirty miles.3
1a W. Chorlton, Chorlton, Ice Ages (Alexandria, Virginia, 1983), pp. 142 ff.
1b Ibid., p. 144.
2 Ibid., p. 146.
3 Ibid., p. 147.

SAHARA STRIATIONS WERE CAUSED BY FLOOD LANDSLIDES, NOT GLACIATION
That's according to these two Creation.com articles etc.
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19 ... 3_9-10.pdf
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j12 ... 70-272.pdf
So I think Cardona is wrong about glaciation in the Sahara, but so far I haven't found confirmation that there is at least one long esker in the Sahara and if there was, how it was formed by a Flood. I know Thornhill disagreed with Cardona somewhat about
striations etc caused by glaciation instead of by Floods. It seems that other ridged material in the Sahara is not eskers, so what may have been thought to be an esker could have been other ridged debris. For example, the ridges in this image from S. Algeria could be wind-blown sand or Flood-formed ridges: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tazrouk ... 72!1m0!3e0

[Lloyd]

39948

TIAHUANACO BLOGPAGE

BUILT BEFORE THE FLOOD? THE MYSTERY OF TIAHUANACO
https://fallencreature.wordpress.com/ge ... iahuanaco/

I plan to read that more thoroughly and maybe comment. I guess Bellamy thought it was built before the Great Flood, but I suspect it was built before the Younger Dryas Flood, not before the Great Flood.

[Lloyd]

40422

CHRONOLOGICALLY REORGANIZED HIGH PROBABILITY THREAD POSTS

I've separated out all of the posts in this thread that seem highly probable due to substantial evidence. The links are to thread pages and the titles after the links can be found on those pages. I'm less certain about where the ice age, supercooling, and ice sheet flooding belong on the timeline, maybe after the Great Flood and/or after the YD Flood. The freezing of mammoths etc seems to belong after the YD Flood, but flooding of the ice sheet seems to belong there too, so it's hard to understand how melting, flooding and freezing could have occurred about the same time in the same places. I still don't well understand the Tiahuanaco sequence either. Most of the posts need a lot more supporting evidence, so they're not included here yet.

UNIVERSE, SOLAR SYSTEM, EARTH
12. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=165
*UNIVERSE NOT EXPANDING
*John Kierein Compton Effect Redshift
14. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=195
*REDSHIFT COMPTON EFFECT
11. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=150
*CATHODE SUN?
12. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=165
*Relative cathode planets
*Cathode Sun
25. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=360
*THE CONTINENTS ARE ABOUT 6,000 YEARS OLD?; THE CONTINENTS ARE UNDER 8,000 YEARS OLD;
26. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=375
*YOUNG EARTH OR YOUNG SUPERCONTINENT: DATING HELIUM IN ZIRCONS; DATING ARGON IN GRANITE;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
GREAT FLOOD
1'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... 10&t=17502
*LK: Baumgardner's Noah's Flood
*LK: Floods to strata.
*JP: Berthault on Stratification
13. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=180
*STRATA FORMATION
*Baumgartner's megasequences
*GLOBAL ROCK STRATA MEGASEQUENCES
*Maps of sediment thickness & Major basins
25. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=360
*NOAH’S FLOOD: THE KEY TO CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF EARTH HISTORY
*BAUMGARDNER'S PAPER SHOWS THAT SEDIMENTARY ROCK WAS MOSTLY FLOOD-DEPOSITED;
28. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=405
*FLOOD-DEPOSITED STRATA;
15. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=210
*COAL ANALYSES ETC
12. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=165
*Cardona's dating is wrong
13. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=180
*C14 DATING & RADIOACTIVE FOSSILS
*FROM WALTER BROWN'S MODEL: The Origin of Earth’s Radioactivity
*MORE DETAILS ON BROWN'S MODEL (Electrical Forces Produced Radioactivity, which entered some fossils)
20. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=285
*IMPACTS DURING THE GREAT FLOOD; False Glaciation Evidence;
31. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=450
*SEDIMENTARY BASINS FORMED BY IMPACTS
*PETROLEUM FORMED FROM MARINE ALGAE BURIED IN THE GREAT FLOOD
4'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... 2&start=45
*LK: Charles explained craters formed by impacts at
www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... &start=135
9. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=120
*BOLIDE IMPACT THERMONUCLEAR EXPLOSION CRATERS
3'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... 2&start=30
*CC: dinosaurs [couldn’t live now]; atmosphere was a lot thicker? KT impact caused dramatic reduction in atmospheric buoyancy; affected vulcanism, flood basalts
5'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... 2&start=60
*see re Mt. St. Helens creation.com/lessons-from-mount-st-helens re sedimentary deposition;
Canyons; Grooves cut in bedrock; Coal formation; polystrate tree fossils; Radioisotope dating
17. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=240
*DENSER ATMOSPHERE BEFORE GREAT FLOOD
*THICKER ATMOSPHERE BEFORE THE GREAT FLOOD
*LESS DISEASE BEFORE THE CATACLYSMS
*ASTEROID IMPACT DURING GREAT FLOOD; "STREWN FIELD"; ERRATICS, ERRATIC BOULDERS
1'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... 10&t=17502
*LK: Mike Fischer's rapid continental drift
10. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=135
*SOME PROOF OF CONTINENTAL DRIFT
18. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=255
*SD in late stage of Flood
31. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=450
*SAHARA STRIATIONS WERE CAUSED BY FLOOD LANDSLIDES, NOT GLACIATION
19. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=270
*FLOOD; POST-FLOOD; YOUNGER DRYAS FLARFE-UP; RETURN OF CIVILIZATION
22. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=315
*FLOOD WINS;

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ICE AGE
19. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=270
*ICE AGE
31. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=450
*ICE AGE & ARCTIC MUCK, LOESS ETC
*I FINALLY UNDERSTAND ESKERS PROBABLY
25. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=360
*OLDEST TREE IS 4,700 YEARS OLD;
31. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=450
*LK: Megalithic Culture video
29. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=420
*GENESIS CREATION WAS AFTER THE GREAT FLOOD - NOAH'S FLOOD WAS LATER
20. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=285
*MYTHS WERE POST-FLOOD (and mostly before the Younger Dryas Flare-up)
23. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=330
*WORKING ON CHRONOLOGY VIA MYTHS
25. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=360
*THE BIBLE DATES THE FLOOD TO 4,500 OR 5,200 YEARS AGO;
26. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=375
*ANCIENTS WERE CONFUSED RE HEAVEN;
27. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=390
*WORD & SPIRIT OF GOD;
*MT is Correct; LXX is Incorrect
10'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... &start=135
*LK: Cochrane's articles vs revised chronologies

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOUNGER DRYAS CATASTROPHE
5'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... 2&start=60
*YD: King List some 2400 years ago is oldest historical document; Sumerian sources 2000 BC
*YD: close agreement on the lifespans between Sumerian texts, the Bible and King List
7'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... 2&start=90
*<LK--Adonai = Aten? = Venus comet enclosure>
8'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... &start=105
*CC: Atum = formless creator god > Aten = Adon
*CC: shab'aten > Shabbat if shab'aten was illegal
10'. www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/view ... &start=135
*CC: Aten ~= winged sun disk, which originated ca 2600BC (p531 oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchicago.edu/files/uploads/shared/docs/SHONKWILERDISSERTATION.pdf
19. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=270
*SATURN'S RINGS & ITS HOUSE
21. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=300
*CARDONA ON THE POLAR COLUMN (from God Star and Flare Star);
22. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=315
*PROOF OF SATURN'S POSSIBLE FORMER POLAR COLUMN
24. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=345
*PERATT'S PAPER
*PETROGLYPHS PROVE AN ANCIENT INTENSE AURORA EVENT
*PICTOGRAPHS DATE TO 7,000 YEARS BP;
*PETROGLYPHS DATE TO AT LEAST 4,000 BP;
*SATURN THEORY MOTIFS FROM PETROGLYPHS;
20. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=285
*IRON-60 (in solar system space) FROM SATURN NOVA?
*YOUNGER DRYAS CONFLAGRATION (vitrified structures)
16. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=225
*COSMIC METALS ON EARTH
*FLOODED ICE SHEET
22. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=315
*YOUNGER DRYAS CATACLYSMS
26. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=375
*See Randall Carlson on Floods
*RANDALL CARLSON & THE YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT
29. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=420
*SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP AT YOUNGER DRYAS
21. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=300
*SUPERCOOLING
*FORMER ARCTIC FLORA/PLANTS;
*WAS THERE SUPERCOOLING OF THE ARCTIC? EVIDENCE OF FLASH FREEZING
22. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=315
*REMAINING EVIDENCE FOR FLASH FREEZING

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFTER YD CATASTROPHE
6. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... 3&start=75
*Hangeth the earth upon nothing
25. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=360
*Velikovsky, neurological effects: *structures were overwhelmed by hurricanes and powerful electrical discharges;
*people who lost their memory;
21. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=300
*GLOBAL COOLING ABOUT 2300 BC; CAUSE OF THE GLOBAL COOLING; DUST RING;
22. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=315
*MOE MANDELKEHR'S CATASTROPHIST MODEL: CLIMATE CHANGE; METEOROID STREAM; GLACIATION; SEA LEVEL CHANGES; CRUSTAL MOVEMENTS; EARTHQUAKES; GEOMAGNETISM; RADIOCARBON DATING; MYTHS
24. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=345
*SOME CIVILIZATION CAME FROM THE NORTH;
21. www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/vie ... &start=300
*COPPER FOR BRONZE AGE AFTER GREAT FLOOD [no, after YD Flood];

(Full Links)
http://funday.createaforum.com/x/cmc-140/msg287/#msg287

[JP Michael]

CMI’s response to the ‘electric universe’
https://creation.com/electric-universe

Here's my comments on this article, both of which were censored, with the replies by PhD scientist Jonathan Sarfati.

Whoever wrote this is clearly ignorant of actual plasma physics like that portrayed in standard texts such as Hannes Alfvens' Cosmical Electrodynamics (Clarendon, 1950) or Anthony Peratt's Physics of the Plasma Universe (Springer, 2015). To quote the latter,

"Because of their strong interaction with electromagnetism, plasmas display a complexity in structure and motion that far exceeds that found in matter in the gaseous, liquid or solid states. For this reason, plasmas, especially their electro-dynamic properties, are far from understood... Langmuir was also the first to note the separation of plasma into cell-like regions separated by charged particle sheathes. Today, this cellular structure is observed wherever plasmas with different densities, temperatures, or magnetic field strengths come in contact."

"Plasmas need not be neutral (i.e. balanced in number densities of electrons and ions). Indeed, the study of pure electron plasmas and even positron plasmas, as well as the electric fields that form when electrons and ions separate, are among the most interesting topics in plasma research today. In addition to cellular morphology, plasmas often display a filamentary structure. This structure derives from the fact that plasma, because of its free electrons, is a good conductor of electricity, far exceeding the conducting properties of metals such as copper or gold." (Peratt, p.2)

Sorry CMI, but try getting an education in the nature and workings of the real (plasma) universe. And with the majority of the universe existing in the plasma state, the majority of the universe is capable of (and indeed does) conducting electric current, frequently separated into cells, double-layers, filaments, current sheets and anode/cathode sheathes. An Electric universe.

Rejection of the electric universe does not mean rejection of observational plasma science. Similarly, none of the observational facts about plasma support the claims of an electric universe.

It is disrespectful to accuse a Ph.D. scientist of being ignorant. However, I have on file a response to you on the electric universe (20 Jun 2020) that was quoted in the article as a response I've given to several people. Both of us are familiar with the claims.

Rather, we must wonder about your own priorities. We have on file the following from you (2 March 2010)

I am writing to you today just to say another thank you for your soul-saving ministry. The Spirit of the living God by means of a lecture delivered by David Catchpoole in 2005 destroyed the firm evolutionary indoctrination that I had received since high school (and also a few semesters at university in 2001-'02), and I learnt to trust in the Bible as a reliable historical document. Furthermore, I learnt that the Historical-Biblical worldview perfectly explains human history and development, as well as various streams of empirical science (eg. geology, astronomy, biology), and how far short evolutionary theory falls in actually being able to explain anything useful.

So I think we have earned some right to be trusted on other issues we talk about, since we use the same objective biblically grounded science on everything we write about. But unfortunately, after supporting and subscribing for a while, you have parted ways with us because we applied the same methods to articles on vaccination and now the electric universe. Anti-vaxism and pro–electric-universe don't support the Creation/Gospel message, so they should be lower priority areas.

Regards

Jonathan Sarfati

The reference to 'anti-vax' has to do with an 18 email exchange on the topic in reference to Safarti's ignorant pro-vax article on the CMI website which I resolutely falsified.

It's interesting to note how CMI actively censors responses that refute their false claims (and ignorance of plasma physics), and then attempt to emotionally blackmail the respondent. Sarfati claimed:

"none of the observational facts about plasma support the claims of an electric universe."

Here are the claims in propositional format (you can find these in works especially by Gunnar Falthammar, a student of Alfvens):

1. If 99.999999999% of the universe is plasma,
2. If plasma is an excellent conductor of electricity (better than copper and gold),
3. Then 99.999999999% of the universe is an excellent conductor of electricity (better than copper or gold).

Dr. Sarfati, please demonstrate with experimental evidence from plasma physics laboratories which of those protases (1 or 2) is false. Until then, my claim that you are ignorant of plasma physics, in spite of being a PhD scientist, remains, and you disrespect your readship by pretending otherwise.

I strongly suggest that your priorities are wrong if attacking vaccination and promoting the electric universe are more important than creation and the Gospel.

I don't know what "protases" means. Did you mean "premises"?

Regards
Dr Jonathan Sarfati

I don't think i need to comment on Safarti's vacuous evidence, logical fallacies or emotional blackmail, or how he presumes to know what are the most important things for me to be occupied with (then again, false dichotomies are part and parcel of the creationist fallacy handbook).

What is sad is that the entire field is dismissed with a handwave of irrelevance, when it is absolutely relevant to discovering new answer's to some of the Bible's most perplexing problems.

Farewell, CMI. I wont miss your biased, ignorant and scientifically incompetent ministry.

[Brigit]

Catastrophism subtopic: diversity amongst catastrophists

I deeply appreciate hearing an account of JP Michael's recent exchange with CMI. Thank you JP.

I don't know anything about where JP Michael goes to church. This particular church I have been in since 1994 was founded in the early part of the 60s by Chuck Smith, and one of the distinctives of this fellowship is that we go through the entire Bible verse by verse; the mid-week service usually teaches through the Old Testament, and the Sunday service involves the teaching of the New Testament. There are 39 books in the OT and 27 in the NT.

I can tell you right away that in the course of preaching and teaching through 66 books, there is no body of believers, large or small, who agree on everything! In every congregation, there are differences in interpretations between the members, and with the pastor. It is not possible that people will agree on everything. The truth is, most of us do not dispute or debate with one another in person about secondary interpretations. Our fellowship is in Spirit, in the gospel, in sufferings, in thanksgiving and songs and hymns, and in the essentials of the word. Our differences are rarely discussed, but in small groups it can come up as a side-topic. To discuss science and catastrophism, I like to find forums online, where there is also great diversity -- and also, little chance of agreement on everything! alas. Even my own mate likes standard geology for the most part, but it is rather fun to have dueling theories about the rocks wherever we go.

Let it be understood that when differences arise over doctrine or interpretation, the believer is to either pass over the nonessential issues, or to prayerfully bring it up with witnesses, or find another congregation and church where there is more agreement with the teachings of Scripture. We do not have a national or international body of experts who interpret the Bible for us or who have authority to either impose or to change the essential doctrines of faith. The CMI does not have authority to interpret science or scripture for any one; all association between Bible-believing people is voluntary, just as belief in Jesus must be.

[Brigit]

It is always amusing to remember that Roger Williams, having obtained a charter for Rhode Island that established freedom of re lig ion, being a Baptist, would then often row 10 miles in his boat to argue with the Quakers! (:

[JP Michael]

The CMI does not have authority to interpret science or scripture for any one; all association between Bible-believing people is voluntary, just as belief in Jesus must be.

Yet this is precisely their pretentious position. It's not so much the disagreement itself as the manner thereof that irks me. To artificially bifurcate electric universe as intrinsically non-essential may be within the scope of CMI's ministerial objectives, but that restriction applies to them, not me. I am not at all obliged to constrain my life goals by theirs. I will no longer subscribe to this cult-like belief.

Further, to imply that I am not engaged in Gospel ministry, or that my priorities in life are somehow 'wrong,' purely because I pursue EU (or anti-vax, for that matter) theory is a non-sequitur (especially in the CV-19 vax case, which at current rates of injury and death is looking at 200 million injuries and 10-15 million deaths if all 7.8 billion of us take it - is mass murder by needle of the elderly and infirm a 'Gospel' issue, Jonathan?)

These kinds of experiences make you reflect on the state of your own soul, however. I am immediately struck with the thought that "You did the same thing to others" during earlier debates with Lloyd and especially Charles Chandler, which I now sincerely regret (not the content, but the manner). It takes a long time to understand that life does not exist in a strict binary of choices, and those who constrain themselves with such thinking ably build the walls of their own mental prisons.

As an aside, I just finished reading John Barton's book, Reading the Old Testament: Methods in Biblical Study (Louisville: John Knox, 1997). This work basically demonstrates in historical terms what Brigit said above: there are multiple ways of reading a text, and you simply cannot argue that "one" way is superior or preferrable to another. All complement one another; all have weaknesses and flaws, be they older historical-grammatical methods, historical-critical methods (source, form, redaction), or newer literary-rhetorical methods. We attempt to do the best with the tools available to us, but we must be humble enough to admit that our preferred methods are not others preferred methods, and our methods do not, on their own, invalidate other methods. It's complex and difficult, just like real life.

"How are you reading the text?" is one of the hardest questions of all to answer, but also one of the most profound.