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THREAD INDEX
https://futureschool.boards.net/post/69/thread
EARTH'S CATACLYSMIC HISTORY
In my 2014 version of Earth's Cataclysmic History at https://milesmathis.forumotion.com/t73-earth-chronology , I accepted Cardona's ideas that the Saturn system came into the solar system about 10,000 years ago, that it was previously in darkness and that it flared up and the Golden Age began and lasted about 5,000 years, when Saturn flared up again and the system broke up near or within the orbit of Jupiter.
In his new paper, Heliosphere, at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=9774 , Charles Chandler explains that the HCS or heliospheric current sheet only seems to extend to Jupiter's orbit or a little farther and there is likely no heliopause as theorized. This means there was nothing to cause Saturn to flare up if it entered the solar system from outside. At least there was nothing until it reached near the orbit of Jupiter. At that point the HCS may have caused it to flare up. So there may be very little evidence that the Saturn system came from outside the solar system.
The Age of Darkness may have been due to Earth having previously had a very thick atmosphere. The Saturn system may also have been on an elliptical orbit that took the system as far as Pluto or beyond, so its period may have been hundreds of years long. So the system would have been in darkness for hundreds of years. If Saturn flared up near Jupiter and ejected lots of gases, dust and maybe meteors etc into the inner solar system, the debris could have slowed down the planets near perihelion and circularized their orbits, ending the elliptical orbit. Earth's atmosphere appears to have been greatly reduced during the Late Heavy Bombardment.
Here's a tentative summary of my present thinking on Earth's Cataclysmic History.
1a. The Saturn system, whether or not with the rest of the solar system, formed from an imploding galactic filament - CC
1b. Venus, Mars and Earth trailed behind Saturn, which originated in or entered into the solar system, either on an elliptical orbit or a spiraling one. - DC
1c. Earth had a thick atmosphere and oceans where life evolved. - SD
1d. A granite planetoid collided with Earth and became a granite supercontinent. - CC]
2a. The Golden Age began at an unknown time after the suprecontinent formed.
2b. 4,500 years ago Saturn flared up within Jupiter's orbit, creating the asteroid belt and meteor streams.
2c. Venus and Mars went out of alignment from the polar configuration. Venus appeared like a comet and formed a circular trail of dust around Saturn.
2d. Mars escaped from the Saturn system when the system reached its orbit. Then Earth and Venus escaped when the system reached near Earth's orbit.
2e. The Moon became a satellite of Earth at that time and caused the Great Flood as its perigee was too close to Earth for the first 6 months or so before its orbit circularized. The Great Flood laid down the sedimentary rock on the continents etc and washed some of it onto the continental shelves.
2f. The Late Heavy Bombardment formed craters on many of the planets, moons, asteroids etc in the solar system. It removed most of Earth's and Mars' atmospheres. The degassing of the oceans caused calcium to combine with sand, mud and lime to form hard rock layers.
2g. The largest asteroid strike hit the supercontinent, splitting it up and causing formation of mountain ranges and rapid continental drift of the continents over the Moho layer to their present locations.
3a. 4,300 years ago after the Flood, the Ice Age began due to thick volcanic and meteor impact dust and smoke.
3b. Saturn flared up for the last time and caused a conflagration on Earth as well as meteor impacts on the Ice Sheet, melting it and causing major flooding. Saturn then moved to its present orbit.
3c. Civilization probably began before the Great Flood, but all or nearly all evidence of it is now buried under the sedimentary rock strata from the Flood etc.
3d. Civilization began anew after the Flood.
Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
12030
MORE THINKING ON EARTH'S CATACLYSMIC HISTORY
AGE OF DARKNESS
_Cardona said some ancient myths say there was initially an Age of Darkness before a Golden Age and that the Sun was first seen as a dim red star. If Earth had a thick atmosphere, that would have made the Sun dimmer and redder, but there would not then likely have been an Age of great Darkness. Venus' atmosphere is 90 times denser than Earth's present atmosphere and Earth probably didn't have nearly as thick an atmosphere as Venus. Since there is not darkness on Venus in the daytime, it probably was not dark on Earth in the daytime, if it was at its present orbit.
_There's a comparison of the size of the Sun as seen from all of the planets at https://www.foundalis.com/ast/sunview.htm
It looks like Earth would have to be at the orbit of Jupiter or farther in order to be in an age of darkness.
SATURN MYTHS
_Cardona, Talbott et al have found good evidence from comparative mythology that the ancients about 4,000 years ago said Saturn was the first and best Sun. But that was during the Golden Age. See https://www.saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/ . The older mythology suggested that Saturn, Venus and Mars appeared constantly in the sky at the north polar axis. Mars appeared on the face of Venus and Venus on the face of Saturn. So Cardona et al concluded that at that time Venus, Mars and Earth were trailing behind Saturn as the system was spiraling in toward the Sun from the edge of the solar system. Cardona compared the movement of the system to that of the pieces of the SL-9 comet that moved linearly in single file in orbit until they crashed into Jupiter in 1994. Saturn was bright at night, possibly due to light from the Sun, like our full moons now, but Saturn was dim in the daytime because of competition from sunlight. Earth's rotation made the Sun appear to come up in the morning and go down at night, but since Saturn & co. were at the north polar axis, they were always visible form the northern hemisphere.
_Before the Golden Age some of the ancients said there was the Age of Darkness. At that time only Saturn was visible and it looked like a dim red glow worm. The Golden Age began immediately after a Saturn flare-up, when Saturn became bright and Venus and Mars became visible on its face. As the system gradually got closer to the Sun it became brighter at night, again like the full moon.
SATURN SYSTEM ORIGIN
_The Saturn system likely formed from the same galactic filament that formed the Sun. The system either came from outside the solar system, or was on an elliptical orbit whose aphelion was beyond Jupiter's orbit and perihelion was near Earth's or Venus' present orbit.
SATURN FLARE-UPS
_A granite asteroid collided with Earth and formed the supercontinent Pangaea long before the Golden Age. The Saturn flare-up occurred just beyond the orbit of Jupiter when Saturn entered the electrical heliospheric current sheet or something similar. The Golden Age must have lasted at least several centuries, so the aphelion must have been close to the present orbit of Pluto.
_Another Saturn flare-up led to the Great Flood about 4,500 years ago. And the final flare-up occurred during the Younger Dryas impact event about 4,300 years ago. That's when Mars, then Earth, and finally Venus broke away from the Saturn system near their present orbits as Saturn was approaching perihelion. Saturn then returned to its more distant present orbit. Jupiter may have taken Saturn's place temporarily. Also, Jupiter may have been part of the Saturn system as well, possibly in the lead position, but not visible due to being on the other side of Saturn.
So now I have 3 Saturn flare-ups a few hundred years apart, one to start the Golden Age, one to initiate the Great Flood, and one to end the Saturn system. By the way, this article "Responding to liberal scholarship on Behemoth" [Biblical Dinosaur?] at https://creation.com/behemoth-liberal-s ... p-response suggests, like other evidence does, that some dinosaurs continued to live for a time after the Great Flood. That's from my weekly list of titles at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 2770#p2770
MORE THINKING ON EARTH'S CATACLYSMIC HISTORY
AGE OF DARKNESS
_Cardona said some ancient myths say there was initially an Age of Darkness before a Golden Age and that the Sun was first seen as a dim red star. If Earth had a thick atmosphere, that would have made the Sun dimmer and redder, but there would not then likely have been an Age of great Darkness. Venus' atmosphere is 90 times denser than Earth's present atmosphere and Earth probably didn't have nearly as thick an atmosphere as Venus. Since there is not darkness on Venus in the daytime, it probably was not dark on Earth in the daytime, if it was at its present orbit.
_There's a comparison of the size of the Sun as seen from all of the planets at https://www.foundalis.com/ast/sunview.htm
It looks like Earth would have to be at the orbit of Jupiter or farther in order to be in an age of darkness.
SATURN MYTHS
_Cardona, Talbott et al have found good evidence from comparative mythology that the ancients about 4,000 years ago said Saturn was the first and best Sun. But that was during the Golden Age. See https://www.saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/ . The older mythology suggested that Saturn, Venus and Mars appeared constantly in the sky at the north polar axis. Mars appeared on the face of Venus and Venus on the face of Saturn. So Cardona et al concluded that at that time Venus, Mars and Earth were trailing behind Saturn as the system was spiraling in toward the Sun from the edge of the solar system. Cardona compared the movement of the system to that of the pieces of the SL-9 comet that moved linearly in single file in orbit until they crashed into Jupiter in 1994. Saturn was bright at night, possibly due to light from the Sun, like our full moons now, but Saturn was dim in the daytime because of competition from sunlight. Earth's rotation made the Sun appear to come up in the morning and go down at night, but since Saturn & co. were at the north polar axis, they were always visible form the northern hemisphere.
_Before the Golden Age some of the ancients said there was the Age of Darkness. At that time only Saturn was visible and it looked like a dim red glow worm. The Golden Age began immediately after a Saturn flare-up, when Saturn became bright and Venus and Mars became visible on its face. As the system gradually got closer to the Sun it became brighter at night, again like the full moon.
SATURN SYSTEM ORIGIN
_The Saturn system likely formed from the same galactic filament that formed the Sun. The system either came from outside the solar system, or was on an elliptical orbit whose aphelion was beyond Jupiter's orbit and perihelion was near Earth's or Venus' present orbit.
SATURN FLARE-UPS
_A granite asteroid collided with Earth and formed the supercontinent Pangaea long before the Golden Age. The Saturn flare-up occurred just beyond the orbit of Jupiter when Saturn entered the electrical heliospheric current sheet or something similar. The Golden Age must have lasted at least several centuries, so the aphelion must have been close to the present orbit of Pluto.
_Another Saturn flare-up led to the Great Flood about 4,500 years ago. And the final flare-up occurred during the Younger Dryas impact event about 4,300 years ago. That's when Mars, then Earth, and finally Venus broke away from the Saturn system near their present orbits as Saturn was approaching perihelion. Saturn then returned to its more distant present orbit. Jupiter may have taken Saturn's place temporarily. Also, Jupiter may have been part of the Saturn system as well, possibly in the lead position, but not visible due to being on the other side of Saturn.
So now I have 3 Saturn flare-ups a few hundred years apart, one to start the Golden Age, one to initiate the Great Flood, and one to end the Saturn system. By the way, this article "Responding to liberal scholarship on Behemoth" [Biblical Dinosaur?] at https://creation.com/behemoth-liberal-s ... p-response suggests, like other evidence does, that some dinosaurs continued to live for a time after the Great Flood. That's from my weekly list of titles at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 2770#p2770
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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
So let me get this straight: the biggest thing to hit earth becomes a solo granite continent (instead of a giant hole), but the second biggest thing to hit earth becomes a giant hole (instead of a new continent) which splits the continent that already existed?Lloyd wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:39 am 1d. A granite planetoid collided with Earth and became a granite supercontinent. - CC]
2g. The largest asteroid strike hit the supercontinent, splitting it up and causing formation of mountain ranges and rapid continental drift of the continents over the Moho layer to their present locations.
With this kind of reasoning, how can anything you claim be falsified at all? Every interstellar object becomes an ad-hoc excuse to say whatever is needed to make the whole 'work'.
Secondly, from a creationist perspective, you seem to have a low regard for the history presented in Genesis 1-5. No-where in the above have you acknowledged Genesis 1-5, but you have instead implied that, whatever Genesis 1-5 might claim, it must be reinterpreted by the latest science and theory.
I specifically refer to the fact that, according to Genesis 1:14, there were no stellar bodies in the sky prior to Day 4 of creation. And if Adam's year 1 is 1656 years prior to the Flood (following Genesis 5 chronogenealogies), and Adam was created on day 6, there is no room for another ~4000 years prior in which Saturn made its "Younger Dryas" appearance in the solar system ~10,000 years ago. Saturn, a stellar object created on or after day 4 (Gen 1:14) cannot appear 4000 years before it (or the universe) ever existed. You have 2 days, else the event being described happened later (as I suppose, as the specific agent of the Deluge).
The only other alternative is to go the way of the Gap Theory or Day-Age Theory, and mutilate basic Hebrew narrative hermeneutics to give way to your theory. I believe it should be the other way around: theories should give way to the fiat declarations of our Creator, who by no means made it difficult to understand both how and when He created, although somewhat sparse on some of the details (and yes, I am fully aware that I make this assumption by fiat - I choose to believe God at His word rather than the foibles of fallible humans who were not there at the beginning - the remainder of the OT and NT play out the testimony that God's fiat decrees are 100% reliable, trustworthy and faithful, whereas those who trust in man and abandon God's word have a 100% chance of disappointment and death)
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
FALLIBILITY
JP said: "I choose to believe God at His word rather than the foibles of fallible humans who were not there at the beginning."
The supposed word of God comes to us via fallible humans, therefore, there is no reason to suppose that this supposed word of God is infallible. Even if much of the Bible were true, there's still no reason to accept that the whole thing is true and infallible. There are plenty of known errors in the Bible, although most seem to be very minor. Nonetheless, any error is proof of fallibility.
STARLIGHT
Until there's proof that light can travel faster than the present speed of light, it's unlikely that the universe can be less than ten thousand years old. It's slightly possible that the Earth or especially the biosphere is less than ten thousand years old, and that may be what the Bible was initially referring to, but there's no proof yet of such dating.
SUPERCONTINENT
I think Charles Chandler is the one who figured that the granite asteroid or planetoid made a soft landing on Earth possibly due to having a spiraling orbit around Earth. I don't think either of us is committed to the theory, but it seems to be a simple way to explain how the continents formed in local areas but the granite crust did not cover the entire globe in a thinner layer.
JP said: "I choose to believe God at His word rather than the foibles of fallible humans who were not there at the beginning."
The supposed word of God comes to us via fallible humans, therefore, there is no reason to suppose that this supposed word of God is infallible. Even if much of the Bible were true, there's still no reason to accept that the whole thing is true and infallible. There are plenty of known errors in the Bible, although most seem to be very minor. Nonetheless, any error is proof of fallibility.
STARLIGHT
Until there's proof that light can travel faster than the present speed of light, it's unlikely that the universe can be less than ten thousand years old. It's slightly possible that the Earth or especially the biosphere is less than ten thousand years old, and that may be what the Bible was initially referring to, but there's no proof yet of such dating.
SUPERCONTINENT
I think Charles Chandler is the one who figured that the granite asteroid or planetoid made a soft landing on Earth possibly due to having a spiraling orbit around Earth. I don't think either of us is committed to the theory, but it seems to be a simple way to explain how the continents formed in local areas but the granite crust did not cover the entire globe in a thinner layer.
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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
There is plenty of room for disagreement between people who are deeply committed to the historicity of Genesis 1-11. In particular, the Gap Theory is in harmony with the rest of the books of the Old and New Testament. This means that the universe as created in the beginning is of unknown age and extent, and the present record begins with a period of regeneration after a primordial catastrophe described in Genesis 1:2.
Also, there are lay people and scholars who reasonably read the same books of the Bible and conclude that the date of the Deluge was around perhaps 3300 BC.
Also, there are lay people and scholars who reasonably read the same books of the Bible and conclude that the date of the Deluge was around perhaps 3300 BC.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Although I would like to point out van der Sluijs' opinion on this:
Rens van der Sluijs wrote:the mythology of 'creation' was not concerned with the actual origins of the universe and of the earth, as creationists and countless others have traditionally thought, but with a relatively recent transformative episode in the history of the earth and its electromagnetic environment. While some traditional societies interpreted these events as the absolute beginning of the cosmos and others - correctly - opined that such episodes are a cyclical occurrence, the entire subject of creation mythology is simply irrelevant to the heated cosmological debate of Big Bang versus 'steady state' theory.[1]
It is van der Sluijs' argument that historical creationism is irrelevant, because Genesis is a mythical account of past fantastic episodes of a possible 'cyclical' occurrence of catastrophism; Genesis 1-2 is not an account of the creation of the universe by any transcendent 'god' but just an ancient snapshot of memorable changes in the sky then recorded by the Hebrews and analagous to other mythic traditions. Van der Sluijs is chained to the scientific method, "The 'hard' sciences will have the last word on what exactly transpired in physical terms," that is to say that he refuses to view the ancient text according to the ancient worldview where gods spoke and revealed their will and deeds to humanity.[1] In this way van der Sluijs remains materialist in his analysis of a text which contains everything but a strict materialist understanding of the universe.
This view assumes that most, if not all, subsequent mentions of mythic catastrophism in the Old Testament refer back only to the creation event, "the god conquering the chaos monster." This view ignores the possibility that later "chaos myth" events were based on their own distinct episode of cyclical catastrophism and not necessarily referring back to an original archetypal version at creation. Moreover, the creation account of Genesis 1 is distinct in that it does not contain several important mythic elements: it has a sea, but no dragon/monster. And the monsters (tanniyn) are creations of God, not his enemies (Gen. 1:21 cf. Ps. 104:26).Brigit wrote: In particular, the Gap Theory is in harmony with the rest of the books of the Old and New Testament.
Again, this brutalises any understanding of Genesis 1 when seen in the light of Exodus 20:11 and 31:17. Furthermore, this understanding defies the usual sense of the Hebrew verb והיה (Gen 1:2) when used in the weqatal grammatical construction. Wehayah means 'become' if it is immediately followed by the preposition ל (le). This is not the case in Gen. 1:2.Brigit wrote: This means that the universe as created in the beginning is of unknown age and extent, and the present record begins with a period of regeneration after a primordial catastrophe described in Genesis 1:2.
Gap theory creates more exegetical problems than it solves, but this by no means explicates rigid creationist approaches to the text, which have some significant issues especially in light of assumptions that the two great lights in Gen. 1:14 are our present sun and moon, an assumption which we both know can be seriously questioned.
[1] Marinus van der Sluijs, "The Age of Myth."
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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
catastrophism subtopic: planetary devastation between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2
Alright, those are all deeply interesting topics. Thanks for the RsvSluijs quote in particular. It would be fun to get to all of it, in an ideal world!
For now I would like to make the most straightforward case for the Gap theory possible. Not in the form of an argument, but as obligatory information; then I can address these objections.
Alright, those are all deeply interesting topics. Thanks for the RsvSluijs quote in particular. It would be fun to get to all of it, in an ideal world!
For now I would like to make the most straightforward case for the Gap theory possible. Not in the form of an argument, but as obligatory information; then I can address these objections.
by JP Michael » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:42 pmBrigit wrote:
In particular, the Gap Theory is in harmony with the rest of the books of the Old and New Testament. This means that the universe as created in the beginning is of unknown age and extent, and the present record begins with a period of regeneration after a primordial catastrophe described in Genesis 1:2.
Again, this brutalises any understanding of Genesis 1 when seen in the light of Exodus 20:11 and 31:17. Furthermore, this understanding defies the usual sense of the Hebrew verb והיה (Gen 1:2) when used in the weqatal grammatical construction. Wehayah means 'become' if it is immediately followed by the preposition ל (le). This is not the case in Gen. 1:2.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
catastrophism subtopic: planet-wide devastation between Gen 1:1 and 1:2
The verses in question are the opening two statements of the Old Testament:
1. It is not necessary for the Maker of All Things to begin creating the world with a step involving vanity, waste, confusion, futility and desolation (tohu and bohu). Not only that, it could be argued that this is impossible, and contrary to His nature.
2. Both the words "waste and void" and the phrase (tohu and bohu) always have a negative connotation, and almost never appear in the rest of the OT outside of the context of Divine Recompense.
3. Genesis introduces the spiritual themes which are further revealed throughout the rest of the 65 books of the OT and NT, as the records unfold across 15 centuries of human history. This is known as "typology" or "the law of the first mention". With this is in mind it is worth noting the strong parallelism between Gen 1:2 and Gen 7:18 :
The days of Genesis in this view are a description of the regeneration and re-ordering of something that has been destroyed: light and darkness are divided, the waters are divided, the waters are gathered and the dry land appears, the earth brings forth the seed-bearing plants; all planetary and stellar objects are ordered in the sky for giving light, and for the purpose of keeping times and seasons. The living creatures on the fifth day are created -- the word is bara -- as well as the Pair called Man. All divine action in the Seven Days is for the end of creating a world that is "very good" and is "blessed".
The other words for make, or made (in particular asa), is used alongside the word for create (bara) in the Seven Days. The word asa/make has everyday connotations of making things out of existing materials such as we do when we cook or build something. The difference between bara and asa is interesting.
Nevertheless, the text is very clear that all of the materials being reconfigured in the Seven Days were, in this view, created in the earlier time, when God created the heavens and the earth in their original glory.
This is the plainest summary of the Gap theory, hopefully informative to those unfamiliar with the basic structure of the cataclysmic interpretation of Gen 1:2.
The verses in question are the opening two statements of the Old Testament:
- In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
- And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
1. It is not necessary for the Maker of All Things to begin creating the world with a step involving vanity, waste, confusion, futility and desolation (tohu and bohu). Not only that, it could be argued that this is impossible, and contrary to His nature.
- For thus says the Lord who created the heavens, who is God, who formed the earth and made it, who has established it, who did not create it in vain (tohu), who formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord, and there is no other" ~Isaiah 45:18
- For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption ~Rom 8:20,21
2. Both the words "waste and void" and the phrase (tohu and bohu) always have a negative connotation, and almost never appear in the rest of the OT outside of the context of Divine Recompense.
3. Genesis introduces the spiritual themes which are further revealed throughout the rest of the 65 books of the OT and NT, as the records unfold across 15 centuries of human history. This is known as "typology" or "the law of the first mention". With this is in mind it is worth noting the strong parallelism between Gen 1:2 and Gen 7:18 :
- And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
- The waters prevailed and greatly increased on the earth, and the ark moved about on the surface of the waters.
The days of Genesis in this view are a description of the regeneration and re-ordering of something that has been destroyed: light and darkness are divided, the waters are divided, the waters are gathered and the dry land appears, the earth brings forth the seed-bearing plants; all planetary and stellar objects are ordered in the sky for giving light, and for the purpose of keeping times and seasons. The living creatures on the fifth day are created -- the word is bara -- as well as the Pair called Man. All divine action in the Seven Days is for the end of creating a world that is "very good" and is "blessed".
The other words for make, or made (in particular asa), is used alongside the word for create (bara) in the Seven Days. The word asa/make has everyday connotations of making things out of existing materials such as we do when we cook or build something. The difference between bara and asa is interesting.
Nevertheless, the text is very clear that all of the materials being reconfigured in the Seven Days were, in this view, created in the earlier time, when God created the heavens and the earth in their original glory.
This is the plainest summary of the Gap theory, hopefully informative to those unfamiliar with the basic structure of the cataclysmic interpretation of Gen 1:2.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
12667
SHOCK DYNAMICS AFTER THE FLOOD
This is part of Mike Fischer's summary of his model of Catastrophism.
The Flood of Noah
https://www.newgeology.us/presentation30.html
_A global flood covers the protocontinent, burying the dinosaurs. A few people, and animals that lived near them, survive in the Ark. The protocontinent is not divided. Flood waters do not have to rise very high to cover everything because the topography is relatively low; there are none of the mountain chains we see today.
What he calls the protocontinent I call the supercontinent, Pangaea. [LK]
_Before the Flood, there is much sand and mud around the edges (shelf) of the protocontinent and East Antarctica.
_During the Flood, massive waves of ocean water wash onto the land, depositing sediment from the continental shelf. Each wave then retreats, but rising water brings the next wave farther inland. As atmospheric pressure falls from 2 or 3 bars to 1, much calcium carbonate precipitates from the sea water by "degassing", forming limestone and cementing the sand and mud. These become the thick sedimentary rock layers that are full of "Paleozoic" and "Mesozoic" fossils.
I think he agrees that the Late Heavy Bombardment of meteors etc (which we "Saturnists" say was from a Saturn flare-up or something) caused the loss of much of our former atmosphere. The degassing of ocean waters caused lime in the water to combine with CO2 from the air to form calcium carbonate (same as calcite, I guess), which cemented lime, sand and mud into hard layers of limestone, sandstone and mudstone. This site http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/book/export/html/1056 says "Cementation is the changing of sediment into rock by filling spaces around the sediments with chemical precipitates of minerals. binding the sediments, and forming solid rock. Calcite and silica are common minerals that cement the sediments together." [LK]
_The first waves bring in sea creatures living in the shallow waters of the continental shelf, as well as land animals living near the ocean. These lowest fossil layers are "Paleozoic".
_Subsequent waves overwhelm and bury the dinosaurs. These fossil layers are "Mesozoic".
_Once the vapor canopy is gone and the atmosphere is thinner, more sunlight reaches the surface and rainbows can appear.
_The flood waters only had to rise hundreds of feet above sea level to cover the hills, rather than many thousands of feet to cover the mountains we have today. Over a period of months, the water filtered down through the new layers of sediment, revealing dry land to Noah. The sediments eventually hardened into sandstone, limestone, and shale sedimentary rocks thousands of feet thick. The filtered flood waters provide the water table under continents from which we draw well water.
_Chicxulub impact
_After the Flood is over and the land is dry, the Chicxulub meteorite hits the Earth. Fallout from the impact covers the world with a thin layer of iridium and shocked quartz.
_The "Age of Mammals"
_Survivors of the Flood land in Mesopotamia and spread throughout the protocontinent on top of the flat sedimentary rock layers. Their populations grow for 531 years (until the time of Peleg, Genesis 10:25, Septuagint text). Up to this point there are only 360 days in a year.
_The Shock Dynamics event
_A giant meteorite impact north of what is now Madagascar divides the protocontinent into the continents and landforms we see today, raises all the mountain chains, and initiates global volcanism. There is widespread extinction of large mammals, many of which are buried and fossilized. These fossil layers are "Cenozoic".
Mike says the Cenozoic rock layers are crumbly, because there wasn't enough cement, like calcium carbonate, to harden them, like the earlier rock layers. I think the Shock Dynamics event actually happened in the late stages of the Great Flood. That's when the supercontinent split up and the continents moved rapidly to their present locations. I'm not sure what the Bible says about when the mountains formed, but that's also when the Grand Canyon also likely formed, i.e. in the regressive stage of the Great Flood, after the continents split off of Pangaea and after the mountain ranges formed. Volcanism was widespread then. In the early stages, the Great Flood covered the supercontinent entirely and then as it was going down, the mountains formed rapidly from the horizontal compressive forces from the asteroid impact by east Africa. The Chicxulub impact happened after the Shock Dynamics impact/s. The Younger Dryas impacts occurred about the time of Chicxulub or later, IMO. The Cenozoic rocks would have formed from floods during the Younger Dryas event etc.
_Also, the most interesting finding to me lately is that the last Saturn flare-up likely occurred after the Great Flood during the Younger Dryas event and that's when the Saturn system broke up and the planets etc each went their separate ways, i.e. orbits. [LK]
SHOCK DYNAMICS AFTER THE FLOOD
This is part of Mike Fischer's summary of his model of Catastrophism.
The Flood of Noah
https://www.newgeology.us/presentation30.html
_A global flood covers the protocontinent, burying the dinosaurs. A few people, and animals that lived near them, survive in the Ark. The protocontinent is not divided. Flood waters do not have to rise very high to cover everything because the topography is relatively low; there are none of the mountain chains we see today.
What he calls the protocontinent I call the supercontinent, Pangaea. [LK]
_Before the Flood, there is much sand and mud around the edges (shelf) of the protocontinent and East Antarctica.
_During the Flood, massive waves of ocean water wash onto the land, depositing sediment from the continental shelf. Each wave then retreats, but rising water brings the next wave farther inland. As atmospheric pressure falls from 2 or 3 bars to 1, much calcium carbonate precipitates from the sea water by "degassing", forming limestone and cementing the sand and mud. These become the thick sedimentary rock layers that are full of "Paleozoic" and "Mesozoic" fossils.
I think he agrees that the Late Heavy Bombardment of meteors etc (which we "Saturnists" say was from a Saturn flare-up or something) caused the loss of much of our former atmosphere. The degassing of ocean waters caused lime in the water to combine with CO2 from the air to form calcium carbonate (same as calcite, I guess), which cemented lime, sand and mud into hard layers of limestone, sandstone and mudstone. This site http://volcano.oregonstate.edu/book/export/html/1056 says "Cementation is the changing of sediment into rock by filling spaces around the sediments with chemical precipitates of minerals. binding the sediments, and forming solid rock. Calcite and silica are common minerals that cement the sediments together." [LK]
_The first waves bring in sea creatures living in the shallow waters of the continental shelf, as well as land animals living near the ocean. These lowest fossil layers are "Paleozoic".
_Subsequent waves overwhelm and bury the dinosaurs. These fossil layers are "Mesozoic".
_Once the vapor canopy is gone and the atmosphere is thinner, more sunlight reaches the surface and rainbows can appear.
_The flood waters only had to rise hundreds of feet above sea level to cover the hills, rather than many thousands of feet to cover the mountains we have today. Over a period of months, the water filtered down through the new layers of sediment, revealing dry land to Noah. The sediments eventually hardened into sandstone, limestone, and shale sedimentary rocks thousands of feet thick. The filtered flood waters provide the water table under continents from which we draw well water.
_Chicxulub impact
_After the Flood is over and the land is dry, the Chicxulub meteorite hits the Earth. Fallout from the impact covers the world with a thin layer of iridium and shocked quartz.
_The "Age of Mammals"
_Survivors of the Flood land in Mesopotamia and spread throughout the protocontinent on top of the flat sedimentary rock layers. Their populations grow for 531 years (until the time of Peleg, Genesis 10:25, Septuagint text). Up to this point there are only 360 days in a year.
_The Shock Dynamics event
_A giant meteorite impact north of what is now Madagascar divides the protocontinent into the continents and landforms we see today, raises all the mountain chains, and initiates global volcanism. There is widespread extinction of large mammals, many of which are buried and fossilized. These fossil layers are "Cenozoic".
Mike says the Cenozoic rock layers are crumbly, because there wasn't enough cement, like calcium carbonate, to harden them, like the earlier rock layers. I think the Shock Dynamics event actually happened in the late stages of the Great Flood. That's when the supercontinent split up and the continents moved rapidly to their present locations. I'm not sure what the Bible says about when the mountains formed, but that's also when the Grand Canyon also likely formed, i.e. in the regressive stage of the Great Flood, after the continents split off of Pangaea and after the mountain ranges formed. Volcanism was widespread then. In the early stages, the Great Flood covered the supercontinent entirely and then as it was going down, the mountains formed rapidly from the horizontal compressive forces from the asteroid impact by east Africa. The Chicxulub impact happened after the Shock Dynamics impact/s. The Younger Dryas impacts occurred about the time of Chicxulub or later, IMO. The Cenozoic rocks would have formed from floods during the Younger Dryas event etc.
_Also, the most interesting finding to me lately is that the last Saturn flare-up likely occurred after the Great Flood during the Younger Dryas event and that's when the Saturn system broke up and the planets etc each went their separate ways, i.e. orbits. [LK]
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5432
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
12694
MY TENTATIVE DATING OF CHAPTER TITLES IN CARDONA'S BOOKS
(I date the Great Flood at about 4,500 years ago. I believe Cardona dated everything in his 5 books at ca. 10k years ago.)
GOD STAR [[PREFLOOD]]
__Contents
1 Myths and Legends; 2 Ancient Astronomical Lore;
3 The Sun Star; 4 The Sun of Night; 5 Dead Suns; 6 Primordial Satellite; 7 Planetary Shuffle;
8 The Solitary Deity; 9 The Immobile God; 10 The Polar Station; 11 Testing the Model;
12 In the Beginning; 13 The Age of Darkness; 14 The Dawn of Creation; 15 The Timeless Era;
16 The Interloping System; 17 Life Beneath a Brown Dwarf Star; 18 A World With One Season;
19 Polar Wandering; 20 The Axial Coupling; 21 The Axis Mundi; 22 Cosmic Genesis
__Epilogue __Index 494
FLARE STAR [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__PART ONE THE DEEP FREEZE
1 THE FRIGID EARTH; 2 THE MILANKOVITCH THEORY; 3 ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESES; 4 UNORTHODOX SCHEMES
__PART TWO THE SATURN THESIS
5 REITERATION; 6 THE CONCEPT OF DEITY; 7 THE BOREAL LOCUS; 8 PROTO-SATURN
__PART THREE THE PRIMORDIAL MILIEU
9 PALEOLITHIC MAN; 10 SETTING THE STAGE; 11 THE CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK; 12 LORD OF THE LINGAM
_PART FOUR THE FLARE-UP
13 PRELUDE TO CREATION; 14 LET THERE BE LIGHT; 15 EXPLODING STARS AND PLANETS; 16 NARROWING THE GAP; 17 MAGNETOSPHERIC UPHEAVAL; 18 OUT OF THE FREEZE
__INDEX 514
PRIMORDIAL STAR [[PREFLOOD]] [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__Part One In the Beginning
1 Ab Origine; 2 Geogenesis; 3 Geognosy; 4 Stellar Flares
__Part Two Revolutions
5 A Thumbnail History of Gigantism; 6 Mass and Gravity; 7 Sudden Violence; 8 Paradigms Lost
__Part Three The Toroids
9 Celestial Bands; 10 Dusty Rings; 11 Earth's Southern Pole; 12 Plasma And All That
__Epilogue __Index 359
METAMORPHIC STAR [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__PART ONE
1 Mythohistory; 2 Theography; 3 Ab Initio; 4 Time Zero; 5 Day One
__PART TWO
6 Blow Outs; 7 The Interglacials; 8 The Clovis Comet; 9 Resetting the Record; 10 Substellar Interactions
__PART THREE
11 Start of a New Era; 12 Divine Colors; 13 Heavenly Transitions; 14 Celestial Unveilings; 15 Serpentine Windings
_Epilogue __Index 330
NEWBORN STAR [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__Part One
1 In the Beginning; 2 The Ruin of Earlier Worlds; 3 In Retrospect; 4 Axial Polarity; 5 Blowup; 6 Meteorological Intensity; 7 Climatic Repercussions; 8 Territorial Infiltrations; 9 Plasmatic Discharge; 10 The Cosmogonic Egg; 11 The Spiraling Enclosure; 12 Ceremonial Celebrations; 13 Orbital Development; 14 Heavenly Multiplicity; 15 The Sibitti; 16 God's Primordial Dwelling; 17 The Basis of Civilization; 18 Culture and Agriculture
__Part Two
19 The Goddess; 20 The Androgyne; 21 Dea Caelestis; 22 Hesiod Versus Homer; 23 Indic Influences; 24 Egyptian Interconnections; 25 Near Eastern Confirmations; 26 The Ba'alim; 27 Lux Divina; 28 Child of Saturn; 29 The Septad; 30 Plasmatic Pinches
__Index 465
CARDONA'S MISDATING
_A Reminder: I believe Cardona misdated the Younger Dryas events at ca. 10k years ago because he didn't realize that the sedimentary rock strata were surely deposited almost entirely by the Great Flood less than 5k years ago and the strata affected by the Younger Dryas event are above the flood-deposited sedimentary rock strata. The main reason we know that most of the strata were deposited during the Flood is that there is very little erosion between conforming strata and mostly only sheet erosions between unconforming strata, which latter are the horizontal boundaries between megasequences of conforming strata. There was apparently a few weeks of time between each deposition event during the ca. 6 month-long Great Flood. Each deposition event was likely caused by a close approach of a body like the Moon on a temporarily elliptical orbit around Earth. Major Glaciation also occurred after the Great Flood.
_I started a Saturn Theory thread on my private forum at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/31/saturn-theory and I'm working on terms from Cardona's Books to help clarify which of his evidence belongs to which phase of the major cataclysms.
_PHASES OF CATACLYSMS
_The phases seem to be 1) a) Saturn Flare-up and b) Bombardment and c) Great Flood and d) Continental Drift; 2) Ice Age; 3) a) Saturn Flare-up and b) Saturn System Breakup and c) Younger Dryas Event.
MY TENTATIVE DATING OF CHAPTER TITLES IN CARDONA'S BOOKS
(I date the Great Flood at about 4,500 years ago. I believe Cardona dated everything in his 5 books at ca. 10k years ago.)
GOD STAR [[PREFLOOD]]
__Contents
1 Myths and Legends; 2 Ancient Astronomical Lore;
3 The Sun Star; 4 The Sun of Night; 5 Dead Suns; 6 Primordial Satellite; 7 Planetary Shuffle;
8 The Solitary Deity; 9 The Immobile God; 10 The Polar Station; 11 Testing the Model;
12 In the Beginning; 13 The Age of Darkness; 14 The Dawn of Creation; 15 The Timeless Era;
16 The Interloping System; 17 Life Beneath a Brown Dwarf Star; 18 A World With One Season;
19 Polar Wandering; 20 The Axial Coupling; 21 The Axis Mundi; 22 Cosmic Genesis
__Epilogue __Index 494
FLARE STAR [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__PART ONE THE DEEP FREEZE
1 THE FRIGID EARTH; 2 THE MILANKOVITCH THEORY; 3 ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESES; 4 UNORTHODOX SCHEMES
__PART TWO THE SATURN THESIS
5 REITERATION; 6 THE CONCEPT OF DEITY; 7 THE BOREAL LOCUS; 8 PROTO-SATURN
__PART THREE THE PRIMORDIAL MILIEU
9 PALEOLITHIC MAN; 10 SETTING THE STAGE; 11 THE CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK; 12 LORD OF THE LINGAM
_PART FOUR THE FLARE-UP
13 PRELUDE TO CREATION; 14 LET THERE BE LIGHT; 15 EXPLODING STARS AND PLANETS; 16 NARROWING THE GAP; 17 MAGNETOSPHERIC UPHEAVAL; 18 OUT OF THE FREEZE
__INDEX 514
PRIMORDIAL STAR [[PREFLOOD]] [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__Part One In the Beginning
1 Ab Origine; 2 Geogenesis; 3 Geognosy; 4 Stellar Flares
__Part Two Revolutions
5 A Thumbnail History of Gigantism; 6 Mass and Gravity; 7 Sudden Violence; 8 Paradigms Lost
__Part Three The Toroids
9 Celestial Bands; 10 Dusty Rings; 11 Earth's Southern Pole; 12 Plasma And All That
__Epilogue __Index 359
METAMORPHIC STAR [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__PART ONE
1 Mythohistory; 2 Theography; 3 Ab Initio; 4 Time Zero; 5 Day One
__PART TWO
6 Blow Outs; 7 The Interglacials; 8 The Clovis Comet; 9 Resetting the Record; 10 Substellar Interactions
__PART THREE
11 Start of a New Era; 12 Divine Colors; 13 Heavenly Transitions; 14 Celestial Unveilings; 15 Serpentine Windings
_Epilogue __Index 330
NEWBORN STAR [[POSTFLOOD]]
__Contents
__Part One
1 In the Beginning; 2 The Ruin of Earlier Worlds; 3 In Retrospect; 4 Axial Polarity; 5 Blowup; 6 Meteorological Intensity; 7 Climatic Repercussions; 8 Territorial Infiltrations; 9 Plasmatic Discharge; 10 The Cosmogonic Egg; 11 The Spiraling Enclosure; 12 Ceremonial Celebrations; 13 Orbital Development; 14 Heavenly Multiplicity; 15 The Sibitti; 16 God's Primordial Dwelling; 17 The Basis of Civilization; 18 Culture and Agriculture
__Part Two
19 The Goddess; 20 The Androgyne; 21 Dea Caelestis; 22 Hesiod Versus Homer; 23 Indic Influences; 24 Egyptian Interconnections; 25 Near Eastern Confirmations; 26 The Ba'alim; 27 Lux Divina; 28 Child of Saturn; 29 The Septad; 30 Plasmatic Pinches
__Index 465
CARDONA'S MISDATING
_A Reminder: I believe Cardona misdated the Younger Dryas events at ca. 10k years ago because he didn't realize that the sedimentary rock strata were surely deposited almost entirely by the Great Flood less than 5k years ago and the strata affected by the Younger Dryas event are above the flood-deposited sedimentary rock strata. The main reason we know that most of the strata were deposited during the Flood is that there is very little erosion between conforming strata and mostly only sheet erosions between unconforming strata, which latter are the horizontal boundaries between megasequences of conforming strata. There was apparently a few weeks of time between each deposition event during the ca. 6 month-long Great Flood. Each deposition event was likely caused by a close approach of a body like the Moon on a temporarily elliptical orbit around Earth. Major Glaciation also occurred after the Great Flood.
_I started a Saturn Theory thread on my private forum at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/31/saturn-theory and I'm working on terms from Cardona's Books to help clarify which of his evidence belongs to which phase of the major cataclysms.
_PHASES OF CATACLYSMS
_The phases seem to be 1) a) Saturn Flare-up and b) Bombardment and c) Great Flood and d) Continental Drift; 2) Ice Age; 3) a) Saturn Flare-up and b) Saturn System Breakup and c) Younger Dryas Event.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5432
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
NOTE: The previous 2 posts are from earlier today and yesterday. Also, a comment: the narration of the Bible seems to give away the fact that "man", not God, wrote the Bible. God is always mentioned in the third person. If God wrote the Bible, he/she should have used the first person. He/she should have said e.g. In the beginning, I, God, created the Heavens and Earth, not In the beginnin, God created the Heavens and Earth etc. For God to use the third person would be dishonest of God, therefore the Bible is obviously the word of "man", therefore it is fallible, even if largely true.
BEFORE AND AFTER GENESIS CREATION
The following quotes are from Cardona's book, NEWBORN STAR.
_p. 12
_ORDER OUT OF CHAOS
_All attempted resolutions between the Genesis account of Creation and the Big Bang theory are based on a series of misinterpretations. The first of these concerns the mistaken belief that God created whatever he did create out of nothing. As Nicholas Sykes thought it necessary to point out, most of us are "familiar with the time-honored view" that the Genesis account "describes 'Creatio ex Nihilo' -God's creation of the Universe out of nothing."1 As we shall soon see, however, creation out of nothing is not even implied in Genesis. In fact, this applies to most other mytho-historical accounts of that same event despite Sykes' claim that Genesis contains "an intentional element" that "marks it off from the others."2
_Aside from the few exceptions we noted in the previous chapter-and even these might have been due to misunderstandings and/or mistranslations by those who received the original accounts-ancient man more than hinted at a pre-existing something. In effect, Creation was seen as having evolved from the wreckage of a preceding existence. A Vedic hymn from India states that "this All," which is often misconstrued to mean "the Universe," was "indiscriminated chaos."3 As it is there maintained: "All that existed then was void and formless.''4 Void and formless it might have been-at least in the eyes of ancient man-but it still existed. Thus, the Laws of Manu rightly inform us that, despite being "without form," the world-or what was later miscomprehended as the world-was believed to have already been in place.5
...
_p. 12-13
_THE MAYIM
_When it comes to the mytho-historical record, ... [Hans Bellamy] was not exaggerating in his discussion of Creation when he claimed that almost everywhere we look, "we find the ordering of a chaotic muddle of pre-existing things, a formation or a re-formation on an improved plan, a re-creation rather than a creation in the primary sense of the word."3
_One of these "pre-existing things" was the very mayim, usually translated as "waters," over which the so-called spirit of Elohim was said to have moved prior to Creation. There will be those who will argue that these waters came after the creation of whatever was supposedly created because the mayim are mentioned after the proclamation of Elohim's Creation, which forms the very first words of Genesis. As with many others of a similar nature, however, this particular objection is usually raised by those of a religious disposition. Scholars of historical linguistics, however, rightly see the proclamation in question as a general statement, a sort of
introduction, preceding the actual act of Creation that follows the first mention of the mayim.1 The validity of this inference is evidenced by the fact that nowhere in Genesis is Elohim said to have ever created the mayim.2 Nor is this concept to be found only in Genesis. Although it has been told that the story of Creation as found in Genesis was borrowed, and adapted, from the one told by the Babylonians,3 it really isn't so since we find the same idea proclaimed in other areas that had no traditional relationship with either ancient Israel or any of the even older Mesopotamian civilizations.
...
_VIOLENT RE-CREATIONS
_Had these worldwide myths of Creation been conceived in order to account for the origin of the world, philosophical demand should have been satisfied with one Creation. Why, then, do we find that this is hardly the case? Why do we find it recorded that God himself found fault with his own creation and, for one reason or another, ended up destroying it in favor of a better model? What is even worse is that this transpired not just once, but many times, andeach time it did so violently.
_That creation consisted of a violent act is found embedded in the very Book of Genesis. There, in its very first verse, it is stated that: "In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the Earth."4 What is not generally known is that the Hebrew word translated as "created," that is hara, which comes from an obsolete primitive root, has the etymological meaning of ''forcing into shape," and contains a connotation of violence.5 For that reason the word is also used in the sense "to cut down," as of a tree, and "to dispatch."6 What this amounts to is that Elohim forced "the heaven and the earth" into shape violently. Not only did Creation not unfold out of nothing, neither did it do so peacefully.
...
_THE CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK
_p.35
_In ancient Hebraic nomenclature, this nebulosity ended up as the tohu wa bohu of the Book of Genesis, which phrase is traditionally translated as "without form and void" or "void and empty" in relation to whatever it was that Elohim was said to have created. Tahu wa bohu, however, can also mean "utter chaos," 1 which conforms with the "chaos" that presided as the ruling principle before Creation in various ancient cosmogonies.2
...
_THE SEVEN DAYS
_p.220
_Those who have read this far will correctly connect this number to the seven coils of the spiraling matter that was emitted by proto-Saturn following its blinding flare-up. And that this spiral was seen by some as a celestial serpent need not be repeated. William Ward came close to the mark when he described the Biblical serpent known as Leviathan as "a symbol of the primeval chaos God had to conquer to bring creation under control."5 Or as Isaac Asimov expressed it, "the supreme god" accomplished Creation "out of the remnants of that monster ,"6 to which he added that this can be taken as "symbolizing the victory of order over disorder, of cosmos over chaos."7 Yet, even so, how did the serpent's sevenfold spiral c[o]me to be understood as seven days? Why days?
...
_THE DAY OF REST
_p.223
_Truth be told, Genesis vouches for only six days of Creation since Elohim did nothing but rest on the seventh.' It is for that very reason that the seventh day of the week became named after the Saturnian deity. As we have already seen, in Hebrew· 'this day is known as the Sabbath, cognate with the Assyro-Babylonian fobattu. 2 To be sure, the Jews resented, as many of them continue to resent, the association of the Sabbath with Saturn's day,3 but that cannot be helped.
...
_p.224
_Looking at the situation from our point of view, what does Elohim's resting really amount to? Before we discard this problematic act as a religious absurdity, let us look a little deeper into the question. The Hebrew word that is used in Genesis for "rested" is shabath, the meaning of which is given by James Strong as "to repose, i.e. desist from exertion."2 A related word is shebeth which means "to cease" or "sit still."3 The implication in context thus seems to be to "stop from moving." This leads us to ask: Did Elohim rest from his services, or did he come to rest? As we have already indicated, due to Earth's minor wobbling following proto-Satum's light-emitting disruption, the proto-Satumian orb was seen to meander around a central point. ... Once Earth stopped wobbling, proto-Satum was seen to come to rest. In other words, the proto-Satumian sun regained its previous immobility in Earth's north celestial pole. More than that, it did so upon, - that is, in the centre of-the innermost ringlet of the sevenfold spiral. To some of those who saw it happen, Elohim had come to rest on the seventh sea.
...
_p.228
_THE FIRMAMENT
_In the sixth verse of the very first chapter of the Book of Genesis it is written that Elohim said "let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters."' The word "firmament," which in the original Hebrew is raqia-variant raqiya or rakhia-has mainly been understood as the inverted canopy, or arch, of the sky or heaven.2
...
_p.230
_... the word raqia properly signifies "an expanse."2 ... Charles McDowell just about hit the nail right on the head when he wrote that: "I regard the raqia as the linguistic equivalent of the Indo-European torque (as it appears in English) and, therefore, as a collar, ring or disk. In the physical sense, then, I believe the firmament consisted of orbiting rings similar to those of Satum."3
BEFORE AND AFTER GENESIS CREATION
The following quotes are from Cardona's book, NEWBORN STAR.
_p. 12
_ORDER OUT OF CHAOS
_All attempted resolutions between the Genesis account of Creation and the Big Bang theory are based on a series of misinterpretations. The first of these concerns the mistaken belief that God created whatever he did create out of nothing. As Nicholas Sykes thought it necessary to point out, most of us are "familiar with the time-honored view" that the Genesis account "describes 'Creatio ex Nihilo' -God's creation of the Universe out of nothing."1 As we shall soon see, however, creation out of nothing is not even implied in Genesis. In fact, this applies to most other mytho-historical accounts of that same event despite Sykes' claim that Genesis contains "an intentional element" that "marks it off from the others."2
_Aside from the few exceptions we noted in the previous chapter-and even these might have been due to misunderstandings and/or mistranslations by those who received the original accounts-ancient man more than hinted at a pre-existing something. In effect, Creation was seen as having evolved from the wreckage of a preceding existence. A Vedic hymn from India states that "this All," which is often misconstrued to mean "the Universe," was "indiscriminated chaos."3 As it is there maintained: "All that existed then was void and formless.''4 Void and formless it might have been-at least in the eyes of ancient man-but it still existed. Thus, the Laws of Manu rightly inform us that, despite being "without form," the world-or what was later miscomprehended as the world-was believed to have already been in place.5
...
_p. 12-13
_THE MAYIM
_When it comes to the mytho-historical record, ... [Hans Bellamy] was not exaggerating in his discussion of Creation when he claimed that almost everywhere we look, "we find the ordering of a chaotic muddle of pre-existing things, a formation or a re-formation on an improved plan, a re-creation rather than a creation in the primary sense of the word."3
_One of these "pre-existing things" was the very mayim, usually translated as "waters," over which the so-called spirit of Elohim was said to have moved prior to Creation. There will be those who will argue that these waters came after the creation of whatever was supposedly created because the mayim are mentioned after the proclamation of Elohim's Creation, which forms the very first words of Genesis. As with many others of a similar nature, however, this particular objection is usually raised by those of a religious disposition. Scholars of historical linguistics, however, rightly see the proclamation in question as a general statement, a sort of
introduction, preceding the actual act of Creation that follows the first mention of the mayim.1 The validity of this inference is evidenced by the fact that nowhere in Genesis is Elohim said to have ever created the mayim.2 Nor is this concept to be found only in Genesis. Although it has been told that the story of Creation as found in Genesis was borrowed, and adapted, from the one told by the Babylonians,3 it really isn't so since we find the same idea proclaimed in other areas that had no traditional relationship with either ancient Israel or any of the even older Mesopotamian civilizations.
...
_VIOLENT RE-CREATIONS
_Had these worldwide myths of Creation been conceived in order to account for the origin of the world, philosophical demand should have been satisfied with one Creation. Why, then, do we find that this is hardly the case? Why do we find it recorded that God himself found fault with his own creation and, for one reason or another, ended up destroying it in favor of a better model? What is even worse is that this transpired not just once, but many times, andeach time it did so violently.
_That creation consisted of a violent act is found embedded in the very Book of Genesis. There, in its very first verse, it is stated that: "In the beginning Elohim created the heaven and the Earth."4 What is not generally known is that the Hebrew word translated as "created," that is hara, which comes from an obsolete primitive root, has the etymological meaning of ''forcing into shape," and contains a connotation of violence.5 For that reason the word is also used in the sense "to cut down," as of a tree, and "to dispatch."6 What this amounts to is that Elohim forced "the heaven and the earth" into shape violently. Not only did Creation not unfold out of nothing, neither did it do so peacefully.
...
_THE CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK
_p.35
_In ancient Hebraic nomenclature, this nebulosity ended up as the tohu wa bohu of the Book of Genesis, which phrase is traditionally translated as "without form and void" or "void and empty" in relation to whatever it was that Elohim was said to have created. Tahu wa bohu, however, can also mean "utter chaos," 1 which conforms with the "chaos" that presided as the ruling principle before Creation in various ancient cosmogonies.2
...
_THE SEVEN DAYS
_p.220
_Those who have read this far will correctly connect this number to the seven coils of the spiraling matter that was emitted by proto-Saturn following its blinding flare-up. And that this spiral was seen by some as a celestial serpent need not be repeated. William Ward came close to the mark when he described the Biblical serpent known as Leviathan as "a symbol of the primeval chaos God had to conquer to bring creation under control."5 Or as Isaac Asimov expressed it, "the supreme god" accomplished Creation "out of the remnants of that monster ,"6 to which he added that this can be taken as "symbolizing the victory of order over disorder, of cosmos over chaos."7 Yet, even so, how did the serpent's sevenfold spiral c[o]me to be understood as seven days? Why days?
...
_THE DAY OF REST
_p.223
_Truth be told, Genesis vouches for only six days of Creation since Elohim did nothing but rest on the seventh.' It is for that very reason that the seventh day of the week became named after the Saturnian deity. As we have already seen, in Hebrew· 'this day is known as the Sabbath, cognate with the Assyro-Babylonian fobattu. 2 To be sure, the Jews resented, as many of them continue to resent, the association of the Sabbath with Saturn's day,3 but that cannot be helped.
...
_p.224
_Looking at the situation from our point of view, what does Elohim's resting really amount to? Before we discard this problematic act as a religious absurdity, let us look a little deeper into the question. The Hebrew word that is used in Genesis for "rested" is shabath, the meaning of which is given by James Strong as "to repose, i.e. desist from exertion."2 A related word is shebeth which means "to cease" or "sit still."3 The implication in context thus seems to be to "stop from moving." This leads us to ask: Did Elohim rest from his services, or did he come to rest? As we have already indicated, due to Earth's minor wobbling following proto-Satum's light-emitting disruption, the proto-Satumian orb was seen to meander around a central point. ... Once Earth stopped wobbling, proto-Satum was seen to come to rest. In other words, the proto-Satumian sun regained its previous immobility in Earth's north celestial pole. More than that, it did so upon, - that is, in the centre of-the innermost ringlet of the sevenfold spiral. To some of those who saw it happen, Elohim had come to rest on the seventh sea.
...
_p.228
_THE FIRMAMENT
_In the sixth verse of the very first chapter of the Book of Genesis it is written that Elohim said "let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters."' The word "firmament," which in the original Hebrew is raqia-variant raqiya or rakhia-has mainly been understood as the inverted canopy, or arch, of the sky or heaven.2
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_p.230
_... the word raqia properly signifies "an expanse."2 ... Charles McDowell just about hit the nail right on the head when he wrote that: "I regard the raqia as the linguistic equivalent of the Indo-European torque (as it appears in English) and, therefore, as a collar, ring or disk. In the physical sense, then, I believe the firmament consisted of orbiting rings similar to those of Satum."3
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Brigit
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:37 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Hi Lloyd, I have been wanting to check in on your wonderful forum. It is a great archive! Thank you.
That is a lot of very interesting material, and your source appears, for just a bit in the first verses, to be more careful than usual in his attempt to understand the Book of Genesis in a strictly material manner. Of course, he then (much sooner than later) concludes that the text mirrors other cultures with which he is familiar. He does so by interpolating his own meanings into select ancient Hebrew words.
In other words, he omits that which does not make for his own philosophy. I would say that is always an occupational hazard for comparative mythologists, and for historians who are openly psychoanalytical in their approach.
But I do see what he is saying and your quotes are very helpful for that!
That is a lot of very interesting material, and your source appears, for just a bit in the first verses, to be more careful than usual in his attempt to understand the Book of Genesis in a strictly material manner. Of course, he then (much sooner than later) concludes that the text mirrors other cultures with which he is familiar. He does so by interpolating his own meanings into select ancient Hebrew words.
In other words, he omits that which does not make for his own philosophy. I would say that is always an occupational hazard for comparative mythologists, and for historians who are openly psychoanalytical in their approach.
But I do see what he is saying and your quotes are very helpful for that!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
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Brigit
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:37 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
catastrophism subtopic: planet-wide cataclysm between Gen 1:1 and 1:2
Why do some believers interpret Genesis 1:2 as a describing an utter and complete cataclysm, and the Seven Days as a re-ordering and regeneration of a devastated world?
I gave some main reasons (1-4) in their simplest form and I also said that there are some serious, and some less serious, objections from other believers. --Apparently some of them even think that the Gap theory and those who hold it are actually responsible for the downfall of Western Civilization.
But for most followers of Jesus, this is a secondary issue and not something they would even consider breaking fellowship over. Using Genesis to confirm pagan, polytheistic, or idolatrous "archetypes" is an interesting, but separate, topic altogether.
Now a fifth reason. What is Old Scratch doing in the Garden of Eden in Chapter 3?
Why do some believers interpret Genesis 1:2 as a describing an utter and complete cataclysm, and the Seven Days as a re-ordering and regeneration of a devastated world?
I gave some main reasons (1-4) in their simplest form and I also said that there are some serious, and some less serious, objections from other believers. --Apparently some of them even think that the Gap theory and those who hold it are actually responsible for the downfall of Western Civilization.
But for most followers of Jesus, this is a secondary issue and not something they would even consider breaking fellowship over. Using Genesis to confirm pagan, polytheistic, or idolatrous "archetypes" is an interesting, but separate, topic altogether.
Now a fifth reason. What is Old Scratch doing in the Garden of Eden in Chapter 3?
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
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Brigit
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:37 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
catastrophism subtopic: cataclysmic events between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2
One important aspect of the Gap theory is that there is no direct statement within Genesis itself about the events leading up to the devastation of the primeval earth. It picks up afterwards, and is silent.
Nevertheless, there is a possible indirect statement.
In Gen 2, having regenerated and reconfigured the earth, the clearest reading of the text in any language is that He has done it with the view of creating and placing a Pair called Adam into the beautiful world. New creatures are also created and introduced. This is the way Man is created:
Now there may have been someone watching. In fact, it is more reasonable than not to assume that there were angelic witnesses at this time. Especially since Genesis 3:1 introduces this player:
One important aspect of the Gap theory is that there is no direct statement within Genesis itself about the events leading up to the devastation of the primeval earth. It picks up afterwards, and is silent.
Nevertheless, there is a possible indirect statement.
In Gen 2, having regenerated and reconfigured the earth, the clearest reading of the text in any language is that He has done it with the view of creating and placing a Pair called Adam into the beautiful world. New creatures are also created and introduced. This is the way Man is created:
- And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground (adamh), and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
- So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Now there may have been someone watching. In fact, it is more reasonable than not to assume that there were angelic witnesses at this time. Especially since Genesis 3:1 introduces this player:
- Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the filed which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, 'You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
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Brigit
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:37 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
I think this serves as one of the earliest references for the hostility of the fallen angels and spirits to this creature called Man:
A weak, worthless broken jar of clay, who learns nothing, and dies like a dog! Not a really friendly spirit.
- 12“Now a word was secretly brought to me,
And my ear received a whisper of it.
13 In disquieting thoughts from the visions of the night,
When deep sleep falls on men,
14 Fear came upon me, and trembling,
Which made all my bones shake.
15 Then a spirit passed before my face;
The hair on my body stood up.
16 It stood still,
But I could not discern its appearance.
A form was before my eyes;
There was silence;
Then I heard a voice saying:
17‘Can a mortal be more righteous than God?
Can a man be more pure than his Maker?
18 If He puts no trust in His servants,
If He charges His angels with error,
19 How much more those who dwell in houses of clay,
Whose foundation is in the dust,
Who are crushed before a moth?
20 They are broken in pieces from morning till evening;
They perish forever, with no one regarding.
21 Does not their own excellence go away?
They die, even without wisdom.’
A weak, worthless broken jar of clay, who learns nothing, and dies like a dog! Not a really friendly spirit.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
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