Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Lloyd]

EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE; HYDROCARBONS FROM COMETS

(Previous post was on COAL ANALYSES ETC at
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =210#p2468 )

The Younger Dryas cataclysms likely occurred from Saturn flare-up some decades or centuries after the Great Flood about 4,000 years ago, instead of before the Flood about 11,000 years ago, as Cardona's books suggest. The flare-ups likely rained hydrocarbons on Earth, contributing to petroleum and maybe coal formation. So that's what we're investigating.

>98. [CO2; ANTARCTICA] Monitor [SIS C&C Review]
_ ... to carbon dioxide levels. These were both higher between 53 and 59 Myrs ago. A likely source for the carbon dioxide was widespread volcanic activity in the North Atlantic at the time, cause unknown. The subsequent drop in carbon dioxide levels may have been rapidly effected by a biological feedback mechanism whereby huge blooms of plankton absorbed much of the excess gas. Evidence for this is found in ocean sediments from the period. There is also evidence of 'the large-scale burial of organic matter on land and in coastal regions, with swamps and ____coal formation'. Both the onset of the high levels of carbon dioxide and the circumstances of its decline appear somewhat catastrophic. More Polar Problems New Scientist 22.1.00, p. 21, 8.4.00, p. 21, 2.9.00, p. 25, New York Times 26.10.99 During the Cretaceous period, high temperatures are supposed to have caused dense forest growth on all continents, including Antarctica. Strange, then, that Antarctica is the only continent where extensive ____coal beds failed to form. Nowadays Antarctica is, of course, covered in

40. [GAS] Methane hydrate: past friend or future foe? [Science Frontiers Website]
_ ... fizzes at its edges, and soon wastes away to a puddle of water? If you wish, you can accelerate the substance's demise by touching a match to it; it is packed with potential energy. The substance is methane hydrate, and it is found in prodigious quantities in oceanic sediments. Each cubic centimeter of methane hydrate contains about 160 cubic centimeters of methane at standard conditions; it is a concentrated source of natural gas. In fact, methane hydrate deposits in the world's oceans hold twice as much carbon as all the ____coal, oil, and gas reserves on land! But methane hydrate may be much more than a future fuel source; it may have been humanity's savior in eons gone by; it may be our future nemesis. You see, methane hydrate is very unstable; changes of temperature or pressure on a global basis can trigger the release of immense volumes of this greenhouse gas from oceanic deposits. For example, when the Ice Ages lowered ocean levels by locking up water in the advancing ice caps, pressures on ocean-bottom methane hydrate lessened

90. [NITROGEN] A Comprehensive Theory on Aging, Gigantism and Longevity [Catastrophism & Ancient History Journal]
_ ... data. The first is an appreciable variation in the amount of nitrogen between the pre-ice age and the post-ice age scenes. We draw on Figure 4. We see that the biosphere, as represented by reservoirs 2 through 6, contains only about percent of the nitrogen contained in the atmosphere, eliminating at once these reserves as possible modifiers. Categories 8 and 9 refer to nitrogen compounds bound in igneous rocks, which are therefore essentially immobile in a 1500 year period. Category 7 refers to nitrogen compounds in shale, oil, and ____coal. The Paleozoic reservoirs are pre-Flood/pre-ice age, and hence are excluded as post-Flood modifiers of atmospheric nitrogen. Cooler post-Flood post-ice age oceans would absorb more nitrogen from the atmosphere than warmer oceans, and a change from 60 degrees down to 38 degrees F. for average oceanic temperature will result in about 50 percent more oceanic nitrogen than for the warmer seas. However, the dissolved nitrogen in the current oceans still is less than 1 percent of the atmospheric nitrogen. The conclusion is, then, that atmospheric nitrogen was a

102. [COOL CLIMATE] Monitor [SIS C&C Workshop]
_Cool ____coal New Scientist 22-29.12.90, p. 13 Scientists have generally assumed that a narrow tropical region of the Earth has remained relatively stable during changing climate regimes. Now an investigator has shown that the geological record indicates that in the Carboniferous period temperatures were much cooler than today and in the Cretaceous, much warmer. The Carboniferous is a particularly interesting case because there were vast glaciers around at the time which indicates cooler temperatures yet there were also the vast tropical forests which supposedly formed the huge deposits of ____coal in modern Europe and North America

[Lloyd]

8445

ESKERS FROM COMETS?

https://futureschool.boards.net/post/56/thread
Poster Presentations Abstracts [SIS Internet Digest]
_Milton Zysman and Frank Wallace, Toronto
_Tails of A Recent ____Comet: The Role ____Cometary Jets Play In Crustal Formation
_Drain away the Earth's oceans and a global pattern of continental and undersea mountain ridges appears. Adjacent to these ridge systems, are layers of silt and clay so thick that they fill the gaps between the ridges, creating extensive plateaus. Ranging across the Earth's higher latitudes are thousands of tiny replicas of these ridges called eskers and drumlins. These swarms run up hills and across streams in roughly parallel discontinuous strands for hundreds of kilometres. Preserved by encapsulation in the ice and snow of our last ice age, eskers, drumlins and their related structures will be the major focus of this paper. We contend that the greater and lesser ridge systems alike, including the water and sediment that fill them, are ____cometary debris. These ridges, which lie directly upon older ridges, are free of fossils, show no signs of organisation by hydraulic processes and the cements necessary for their conversion to rock could not be provided from earthly sources. These ridges can be traced to a stream of "jets" of disintegrating materials emanating from shifting surfaces on a ____comet's nucleus. A band of these jets, captured in planetary orbit, will ____>>deposit its debris in a manner perpendicular to the Earth's surface - a unique configuration that is consistent with the manner in which ____comets discharge in the plane of their orbit. The jet will land in two distinct phases. Jet particles able to resist planetary atmosphere (sand, gravel and boulders), will compact and concretize into their classic ridge pattern. The water and lighter materials, diverted by winds and ____>>post-depositional mobilisation, will flow and become inter-ridge basins. We contend that the establishment of the ridge complexes found on Earth are therefore consistent with the earth's encounter with ____cometary tails, sections of which get captured in the Earth's orbit before descending in swarms.

Here's a Map of Eastern Canadian eskers.
Morphometry and pattern of a large sample (>20,000) of Canadian eskers and implications for subglacial drainage beneath ice sheets
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map ... _266561005
Map of interpolated eskers classified by length. Note the radial pattern of long eskers around the Keewatin (west) and Labrador (east) sectors.

Is there any way to see this pattern of eskers as caused by cometary deposition maybe followed by erosion?

Here's a paper about eskers that includes maps and detailed descriptions.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9114003618

HYDROCARBONS IN METEORITES
https://www.google.com/search?q=hydroca ... es&ie=&oe=
That's evidence that comets may contain hydrocarbons too, since meteorites may come from comets. Eskers could then be meteorites too, if Zysman was somewhat correct. And if Saturn was the source of most comets, then it could also be the source of the hydrocarbons, such as in petroleum, tar and coal.

[JP Michael]

I've got too much work on this semester so you wont hear much from me till November, probably.

[Lloyd]

8499

That'll be a long dry spell, JP.

ESKERS

If you look at the eskers maps linked above, you can see the radial pattern with the empty centers. The eskers are linear, so they're like spokes of a large wheel with a huge hub. The material in each esker is said to be clay, sand, gravel and boulders. They contain no fossils. So Zysman figured the eskers came from comets. And that seems possible, but the esker/comet material would initially been on top of the ice sheet in a large circular area with a large clear center, then the heat melted the surface, forming parallel channels/valleys that allowed water to flow toward the center. Or could the center have been an impact crater and the esker material have been ejecta that landed on the surrounding ice sheet? That would make it plausible for the channel waters to flow inward. Any other bright ideas out there?

I hope to have time to look for more inspiration from a search on glacial drift and till at https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... t%5B%5D=-1 and https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... t%5B%5D=-1 etc

I'm basically trying to determine if Cardona's info and ideas from his Saturn Theory may explain drift, till, eskers etc as detritus deposits from a Saturn flare-up or maybe comets from a flare-up etc.

[Lloyd]

8601

GLACIAL OR CATACLYSMIC DEPOSITS?

GLACIAL TILL/DRIFT & LOESS are said to be fossil-free and LOESS is said to blend in with TILL/DRIFT. So where did it all come from? Comets? Saturn Nova? Volcanic Eruptions? The following two differing snippets from older material at Catastrophism.com have some relevant info.

13. New Insights to Antiquity: A Drawing Aside of the Veil by Richard Petersen [Aeon Journal]
_Petersen then calls into question the glacial theory of till, the unstratified admixture of sand, gravel, and clay found in glacial drift, often several hundred feet thick and which is generally fossil-free. These ____>>deposits are found scattered throughout select areas in the northern hemisphere, although a few have been identified in the southern, and have been assumed to have been laid down by the movement of glaciers during Earth's ice ages. To compound the problem, the ____>>deposition of loess mixes smoothly into that of the glacial till in North America, meaning there was no stratification whatsoever between the two so-called drift forms. This loess is also found in scattered locations in Asia, Europe, as well as the Americas, and varies from deposits a few millimeters in thickness to several hundred feet, and has been thought to be wind-blown debris. But, it is composed of very fine particles with an anomalously narrow distribution-- 0.01-0.05 mm-- a restrictive screen-sizing that no known vagary of the wind is capable of. Furthermore, loess is extremely porous, being permeated with myriads of vertically oriented capillaries as if innumerable tiny bubbles had percolated up through the beds. Petersen considers these capillaries to be due to electric discharges, but gives no further explanation of the phenomenon. As if this weren't enough, the loess deposit near Council Bluffs, Iowa, is rife with tiny snail shells that are unfossilized, and as fresh and undegraded as if deposited very recently. In fact, Petersen concludes that these deposits cannot be extremely old, despite radiocarbon dating of the carbonate-based snail shells that show no residual Cl4 at all. Radiocarbon analysis is limited to a maximum of some 47,000 years. However, the bizarre conditions Petersen has developed in his scenario preclude radio-dating of geologic formations with any hope of success. Moreover, he states that decay rates are not affected by conditions achieved in any laboratory, but then he apparently wasn't aware of the decades-old work of Spangler and Anderson, who found that the Poisson distribution in the decay rate of radiocarbon could be modified by a 90 volt charge across a thin carbon layer. [7

2. Letters [SIS C&C Workshop]
_Cometary Origin of Sediment Queried
_Dear Sir, Regarding the Zysman theory of cometary origin of sediment [M. Zysman: 'Sediment', Catastrophism 2000 {Toronto, 1990}, pp. 97-137], I sent him a critique and would have no objection to your publishing the following points that I made to him. I am in agreement with Zysman that 'Hutton's perpetual heat machine' is deficient for explaining the renewal of massive sedimentation in the geological record over time. A cometary origin, however, is obviated by the absence of fused coatings on sedimentary clasts. Tektites are the classic representatives of atmospheric entry. For sixty years the debate has seesawed between whether they originated by impact splash from the Moon or the Earth. Initial high temperature melting is overplated with re-entry melting of surficial layers on larger clasts, clearly simulating meteoritic entry to Earth's atmosphere. The clasts of Pleistocene till, the 'drift', do not show this. Neither do those of cyclothems of the North American mid-continent. Loess is not fused and, hence, is not cometary material. Current bedding, cross-bedding, interleaving with argillaceous or calcareous layers, while temporally showing changed geological regimes of local nature, also show the passage of time during which everyday riverine and marine processes worked. These sedimentary fabrics cannot have been originated by sudden deposition from the atmosphere. My explanation for the renewal of sedimentation is the recognition that energy release occurs by reactions of a chemical nature at the core/mantle depth level. It is not an exaggeration to say that explosives are stored there and are released from time to time by interaction of the reactive components, hydrogen and carbides (especially silicon carbide). This causes a rise of volatiles: methane, etc and silane, the silicon analogue of methane (SiH 4 vs. CH 4). The rising gaseous reaction products produce earthquakes and dilate great welts above them. The silane, on first contact with water (at upper mantle/basal crust level) sequesters its oxygen. This releases hydrogen and deposits its SiO2 as quartz or chert, plugging off its own conduit and creating explosive conditions. This is the set-up for volcanic explosion, which often blows out siliceous ash, the formerly deposited SiO2. It also transfers silicon for development of granite and may force the rise of mountains and the underplating of the mountain belt with siliceous (quartz-rich) rock to form a continental 'keel'. I think the loess is originally volcanic, being the explosion product after the deposition of silica from rising silanes. Curiously, coal can also be attributed to the hydrogen/silicon carbide reaction. After silane has fully reacted with water, its accompanying hydrocarbon gas along with hydrogen emitted by oxidation of silane in the absence of free oxygen, if able to rise further, will sooner or later encounter oxygen. If the oxygen supply is meagre it will all be taken up by the hydrogen, and free carbon in finely divided form will be released in the water produced by the oxidation of the hydrogen component. If peat and other terrigenous plant debris accumulations stand in the way of water flowing on the surface with entrained finely divided carbon (perhaps as small as micron-sized smoke particles) they will preferentially adhere to their plant carbon counterparts. Residual hydrogen or methane in the effluent water should strip away remaining oxygen from the plant material. In this way a bed of soft coal can be produced on the surface. Methane in hydrate form can be captured along with the carbon 'smoke' and survive until buried. This can account for the methane content of coal measures, especially for its divers levels among different localities and mines in measures that are correlated with one another geologically, which otherwise should be the same. This origin for coalification addresses the question of inadequacy of macerals (plant parts) in known seams where they are separated from one another and pure carbon seems to be all that fills the space between them. Zysman's idea of cometary origin for coal follows on Velikovsky's idea of hydrocarbons from the sky. Their impact into the atmosphere would oxidise unprotected hydrocarbons or carbon. Thus the idea is untenable. Zysman's opening exposition of the conundrum that 'persistent ancient tradition [says] that the earth was originally brought down from the sky' can be better accommodated by an explanation of volcanicity than by cometary encounter. C. Warren Hunt, Calgary, Canada

The Eskers paper I linked to earlier is at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9114003618 . Conventional geology says the till/drift, loess etc came from glacial action on bedrock, but bedrock normally contains fossils. I hope to get more detailed info on the composition of the stuff before long.

WORKSHOP: I'm working on search results for
CARDONA; LOESS; & COMET; DEPOSITION
at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/56/thread
and GLACIAL TILL/DRIFT
at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/59/thread

[Lloyd]

GLACIAL LANDFORMS

See: A COMPARATIVE ANALYSIS OF GLACIAL LANDFORMS: SKE...SANDUR ICELAND AND NORTHWESTERN PENNSYLVANIA
https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file ... n%3Dinline

That study of landforms in Iceland that formed in recent decades strongly suggests that Eskers and other glacial landforms and the till/drift in them formed from subglacial meltwater, probably under catastrophic conditions. So the till/drift material doesn't seem likely to be cometary. Maybe the lack of fossils is due to the rock in Canada being mostly "Precambrian" granite of the Canadian Shield, after the Flood removed all of the sediments from the shield during the regression stage, when flood waters flowed off the continent. Elsewhere, it is suggested that the large volume of meltwater was caused by Saturn's nova or flare-up heat, and/or cometary deposition of burning hydrocarbons.

[Lloyd]

8648

FLOODED ICE SHEET

Excerpts from: The Flood -- Charles Ginenthal [The Velikovskian]
[RE GLACIAL LANDFORMS, DRUMLINS]
[C. Warren Hunt said:] My observations in northern Alberta and northeastern British Columbia led me to consider the drumlins [glacial hills] I observed on air photographs as fluvial features because of the regularity in orientation, spacing and length -- the same characteristics attributed by Shaw to flood deposition.... Curiously, Shaw does not contemplate (in print, at any rate) where the water could have originated, apparently assuming it to be sub-glacial meltwater. But how could such melting take place without a heat source such as volcanic heat, which precipitates Icelandic jokulhaups (glacial floods in Iceland produced by volcanic melting of subglacial ice)? What climate regimen would allow such melting in the first place? ____What containment mechanism would allow accumulation of a great under-ice lake, 84,000 km^3 ( cubic kilometres) of water 18 times the volume of the Bonneville flood release beneath [3,000 meters] of ice? And would not water beneath the maximum ice thickness tend to escape the lesser confining pressures under peripheral areas of the ice sheet? Is there any possible way such a huge under-ice chamber of water could accumulate? Ice has no effective tensile strength. Thus, any unconstrained portion of an ice sheet above a moving torrent would move with the water, breaking up and flowing as icebergs with it. Any rock load that might be encased in the ice would go with the flood. Catastrophic emergence of flood waters from under an ice sheet would rapidly destroy the ice sheet....

[RE ESKERS]
It has generally been assumed that eskers were formed from glacial rivers that deposited sand and gravel under the ice. However, rivers do not run up hills. Hills under the ice sheet would halt the natural river flow; therefore, rivers would have to either erode or flow around the hills. ____If eskers were created from cracks in the ice sheet, into which water and detritus poured, then evidence of this should be found. This is supported by the fact that marine shells have been found in North American and European eskers: In North America, "fossils [were] discovered in an esker-like glacial ridge of sand and gravel. It is suggested that the deposit was formed as a crevasse filling.... [The fossils] are mostly intact, many with both valves together, in place...." (32)

[RE SUBGLACIAL MELTWATER]
Curiously, Shaw does not contemplate (in print, at any rate) where the water could have originated, apparently assuming it to be sub-glacial meltwater. But how could such melting take place without a heat source such as volcanic heat, which precipitates Icelandic jokulhaups (glacial floods in Iceland produced by volcanic melting of subglacial ice)? What climate regimen would allow such melting in the first place? ____What containment mechanism would allow accumulation of a great under-ice lake, 84,000 km^3 ( cubic kilometres) of water 18 times the volume of the Bonneville flood release beneath [3,000 meters] of ice? And would not water beneath the maximum ice thickness tend to escape the lesser confining pressures under peripheral areas of the ice sheet? Is there any possible way such a huge under-ice chamber of water could accumulate? Ice has no effective tensile strength. ____Thus, any unconstrained portion of an ice sheet above a moving torrent would move with the water, breaking up and flowing as icebergs with it. Any rock load that might be encased in the ice would go with the flood. Catastrophic emergence of flood waters from under an ice sheet would rapidly destroy the ice sheet.... Earth heat cannot have melted continental ice to produce floodwater in the volumes required for drumlin formation. A cometary heat source could have served the purpose. (30) … [HUNT or SHAW?] admitted that there is no evidence of cometary debris in the regions where such evidence should be found. Nevertheless, there is clear evidence that drumlins were formed by water action. Even during floods, water tends to lay down sediment as stratified deposits. Neither glacial action nor the pushing of surface materials into long narrow hills will separate the materials deposited into separate strata, according to their natural grain size and mass. This is crucial! Only water action will segregate materials into distinctly separate, stratified deposits which are oriented in the direction of the water's flow.

[MY QUESTIONS]
1. Why would Eskers form a spoked wheel pattern? Is it because the ice sheet fractured in that pattern and the Esker material flowed into the cracks from flood waters?
2. Why would the ice sheet fracture in a spoked wheel pattern? Would a cometary or nova heat source from above cause melting in such a pattern? Or would electrical forces cause the pattern?
3. Where did the Flood waters gather the Esker material from, i.e. silt, clay, sand, gravel and boulders? From continental shelves and continents, or from cometary or nova material? Since marine shells etc are found in Eskers, it seems that the material must have come from continents and continental shelves via Floods.

[JP Michael]

Creation.com censoring my comments on Electric Universe theory again.

On the recently reposted article "Warped Earth" I commented:

This article unfortunately over-emphasises the role of the Flood and the soft sediments resulting therefrom as the singular cause of such bending and folding. I have no doubt that this was an important cause, but it was not the only cause.

What remains under-emphasised, not only by Creation geology but almost all geology, is the role of dynamic electric current in the melting, folding and bubbling of geologic layers subsequent to the Flood itself. There were numerous, smaller catastrophes subsequent to the Flood involving intense electrical events which deformed, scoured, excavated, bent, melted and bubbled certain areas of the world (especially Iran, the US Rockies, the Rift Valley in Africa, the European Alps, and central Australia) subsequent to the deposition of the Flood layers. None of this is at variance with the Word of God, as my upcoming PhD thesis on the Old Testament instances of catastrophism shall demonstrate amply. This is just another example of ignorance of the most important force still alive and active in the shaping of our planet: dynamic electric currents, be they telluric, atmospheric, ionospheric, or extra-terrestrial (e.g. solar).

And please, stop dismissing the electric universe model with your just-so handwaving. It's not going to go away simply because the mainstream (and creationist) models do not allow it, primarily because of their a priori assumptions simply exclude it as a significant force. And no, current models do not explain the data 'just fine', e.g. the excessive heat problem of runaway subduction. They are woefully inadequate because they refuse to acknowledge the central role of the universe's most pervasive and powerful force, a force which can come and go wholly at the whims of external influences.

Not allowed!

[Lloyd]

8696

CREATIONIST BIAS

I posted a link to that article, Warped Earth, in my last weekly Sci Blog update and I skimmed through it. Maybe your comment just didn't provide a good explanation of anything that they considered worth posting. Walter Brown had no trouble discussing electrical forces in his online book. He explained how electrical forces produced the radioactive elements in continental crust, which I posted on here a few weeks ago. I've also discussed Andy Hall's ionic winds theory with you in this thread. I wasn't convinced of his model because I don't see geologic cross-sections of flatirons etc as supporting his model. Electrical forces are certainly a major factor in geologic processes, but Charles Chandler's model seems to me to explain best, along with Walter Brown's model, exactly how electrical forces operate. Shock waves can briefly melt rock and then it refreezes again quickly. This is shown to have happened in the area of the Chicxulub crater in Mexico. But sediments are already soft and bendable anyway before they lithify. So it's not obvious how electric charges have much to do with folded rock strata in mountain areas. What I posted lately from Hunt here seems promising for helping explain granite, oil and coal formation. Anyway, you might get some comments accepted if you ask questions or refer to Walter Brown's material etc. Eh?

[Lloyd]

8775

ORIGIN OF LOESS

(From my workshop at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/61/thread )

6. The Flood [The Velikovskian]
From: The Velikovskian Vol 2 No 4 (1994) Home¦ Issue Contents
_The Flood -- Charles Ginenthal
_All the supposed glacial floods described above flowed south but did not generate either the amount or depth of muck found around the Arctic Ocean. Again, this indicates that the original flood flowed northward and dropped most of its debris and sediment into and around the Arctic Ocean. The backflow travelled southward, breaking up the icecap, over the land and into other oceans. This backflow has been described as the floods occurring from the Washington scablands to Siberia's Altay Mountains. However, this backflow carried with it less massive sediment particles, or ____loess. The ____loess is found south of the Pleistocene icecaps as a broad band across Europe, Asia, the United States and parts of southern Canada -- between the 40 and 70 north latitudes. Southern hemispheric ____loess deposits are found in the Argentinean pampas, southwestern Australia, New South Wales and New Zealand. The band of ____loess in the northern hemisphere is broken in many places and is missing from the far eastern end of Siberia, which experienced the largest flood. However, south of the Siberian flood, in China, some of the largest ____loess deposits on Earth are found. This, of course, would be congruent with a large Siberian flood.
_[The glacial/aeolean theory of ____loess formation] is denied by the evidence. As J. K Charlesworth pointed out in 1957, there is "some dissent [with the aeolian {wind} theory of ____loess formation] because the entire profile should resemble a humus horizon, [yet] the tubes [in the ____loess] have scarcely a trace of vegetation." (76)
_Even if some of the ____loess, after being built up, had been moved by gigantic glacial floods to its present locations, it would be filled with humus and plant remains from top to bottom. What the aeolian advocates expect one to accept as probable is that glacial floods washed away the ____loess from the humus and vegetative remains, leaving these behind. Only by ignoring the evidence which supports a strictly fluvial origin for ____loess have the aeolian proponents been able to maintain their theory. No aeolian, gradualistic production of ____loess will create deposits nearly devoid of humus and other decayed vegetation, even by invoking later floods. Before any critics address the question of the ____loess, they must explain how fertile material, which built up year after year during the Ice Age, would create a strata hundreds of feet deep [[without being]] filled with humus and decayed plant remains.
_The Pampean ____loess deposits, like those in Europe, Asia and America, were supposedly laid down over many thousands of years and, therefore, should be loaded from top to bottom with vegetative loam; but such is not the case.

9. Scientific Evidence for A Major World Catastrophe About 11,500 Years Ago: A Preliminary Selection [SIS C&C Review]
_[____Loess]
_Covering great swathes of the world's land areas is a surface formation known as the ____loess. It is especially prominent in parts of China and North America, locally attaining impressive thicknesses. Explanations of its origin have ranged from the aeolian (wind-blown) to the aqueous (water-borne). For present purposes we focus on the formation's basal layers. In Northern China the lowest ____loess beds are crowded with red-hued manganese nodules called Pisolites [63. The ____loess of other Chinese regions also exhibits similar metalliferous associations, a characteristic also true of the American ____loess. That in Nebraska, for instance, contains as much as 20.26% aluminium and 7.80% iron [64. Indeed, the mineral content of ____loess is generally dominated by silica and heavy minerals [65, thereby paralleling the previously noted occurrences of heavy (high temperature) metals here and there in the 'drift' deposits. A striking example of the latter occurred in the 'drift' gravel redeposited as a deltaic formation at the mouth of the Fraser River in British Columbia. There, unexpected concentrations of manganese, cobalt, iron, lead, zinc and copper have been found [66. Such high temperature ores are not produced by agencies which accumulate ____loess or 'drift'-like deposits. They are produced deep within the Earth or arrive meteorically, having formed elsewhere under extremely hot conditions. The occurrence of silica in the ____loess correlates with the aforementioned silicate origins of diamonds, locally present in the drift of many areas and both with the marked volcanism of late Pleistocene times. Is it coincidence that immense banks and lenses of now frozen volcanic dust and ejecta occur confusedly among the mountains of mangled late Pleistocene animals and plants comprising the Siberian and Alaskan graveyards? At least one high authority, particularly familiar with the relevant field evidence, concluded that great falls of volcanic ash had contributed to the wholesale slaughter of the animals and plants preserved in these refrigerated deposits [67. That the ____loess is apparently of comparably recent age is indicated by studies of the myriads of mineral grains composing the bulk of the deposit as a whole, for it is widely conceded that these are 'singularly fresh and angular looking' [68.

"THE LATELY TORTURED EARTH: PART II: EXOTERRESTRIAL DROPS: 8.Falling Dust and Stone [Quantavolution Website]
_In the most ancient legends it is common to find references to more than comets and deluges of water. Deluges from the sky consist also of ____dust, ____loess, stones, glass, tar, oil, salt, gold, iron, ashes, carbohydrates -all of them sometimes hot and sometimes aflame. They are invariably tied to catastrophes. Donnelly collected some of the stories....
_The origin of ____loess may be in an immense fall-out of dust from a comet or an explosion of Earth material into the highest atmosphere whence most of it fell back to form ____loess and clay covering many hills and valleys to this day. Since humans seem to recall such an event, the time might not be far off. Donald Cyr, a California amateur and devotee of the Canopy Theory of Isaac Vail, has studied ____loess. He has a story to tell too. "____Loess is mixture of silica and clay, with particle size ranging from 0.1 mm down to 0.005mm. Where ____loess in unoxidized, it has a greyish color, but may also be yellow, orange, or brown because of presence of ferric oxides. Deposits of ____loess occur in North America, Europe, Russia, Siberia, China, and also in Argentina and New Zealand...." [10 The State of Kansas is estimated to be overlain by more than 50,000 cubic miles of ____loess. There is little glacial outwash in Kansas, Cyr writes, and he does not see how glaciers had the power to grind down sufficient rock within the Pleistocene age, wherein it is placed, to supply the ____loess. He estimates the worldwide deposits at 7,000 cubic miles per degree of longtitude per hemisphere. And he suggests that the ocean "blue" mud may be part of it.

COSMIC DUST

Vox POPVLI [Aeon Journal]
_Polar Column Mike Twose, from Toronto, Ontario, writes: In reading Ev Cochrane's interesting article on the Milky Way,[1] it occurred to me that no one, that I know of, has delved into the conditions that must have influenced the gases and ____dust that must have stretched between Earth and Saturn during the time of the Saturnian configuration.[2] In the beginning, the difference in electrical charge between the two planets must have been quite large.

4. The Mythical History of the Comet Venus (Part I) [Aeon Journal]
_The Polar Configuration
_The configuration reached its greatest brilliance when the crescent was directly below Saturn (at midnight). In the original language of the daily cycle this was the to diminish as it rose to the right of Saturn, reaching its weakest point as it arched above Saturn, the archaic "night." From the viewer's northern horizon a great column of light rose toward Saturn along the polar axis, looking very much like a pillar holding aloft both the planet and the celestial enclosure. The small orb at the apex of the column was the reddish planet Mars, the heaven-sustaining giant and warrior-hero of global myth. Spiralling out from the polar axis was a turquoise stream of gas or ____dust, terminating in the orb of Venus, remembered around the world as the mother goddess. Myth-making imagination perceived this projection as a revolving curl of "lifebreath," a circling beard or sidelock, or the termination of a rope or cord extending from its coil (to name a few of the most prominent symbols). Also visible were four streams of gas or dust appearing to radiate from the shared polar axis.

DRIFT

9. Scientific Evidence for A Major World Catastrophe About 11,500 Years Ago: A Preliminary Selection [SIS C&C Review]
_The 'Drift'
_Blanketing many parts of the world's land surface is an extensive geological deposit known as the 'drift'. Like its thickness, its composition varies from district to district, consisting of intractable clay in one place, of coarse gravel and assorted rocks in another and of mixed sand, volcanic dust and angular grits in yet others. Its deposition appears to have been unusual, for it is found plastered up against the northern flanks of many hills and mountains but not on their southern slopes. Elsewhere it occurs on upland summits but not on neighbouring low ground, or it fills up entire valleys adjacent to others wholly devoid of it. In short, its geographical distribution is singularly patchy. The 'drift' is also largely unstratified but, where stratification is discernible, this is highly contorted vertically and extremely irregular laterally. All observers agree that 'drift' accumulated quickly and confusedly, perhaps in pellmell fashion like snow whirled about during severe snow storms - but a drifting of gravel and boulders?

MUCK

The Demands of the Saturnian Configuration Theory [Aeon Journal]
_To begin with, or to continue, we are all acquainted with the destructive force that tornadoes exhibit. Should not Saturn's Rankine ____vortex, therefore, have left signs of an even greater destruction? This would have been especially so since this titanic maelstrom would have wrought its devastation while laterally standing still. A full exposition concerning the history of the Axis Mundi requires a volume to be told in full. I cannot here do it justice beyond providing a few isolated items. I point, first of all, to the Arctic ____muck, or frozen soil, which "covers no less than one seventh of the land surface of earth," all of which encircles the Arctic Ocean and lies within the Arctic Circle. [147 Composed mainly of silt, sand, pebbles, and boulders, it is often accompanied by "preserved, semi-decayed, or fully decayed vegetable and animal matter." [148 Its depth, in some places, "has always caused even the most open-minded geologists to boggle." [149 The Russians, who have conducted studies on this ____muck, have in some places drilled down more than 4000 feet without reaching rock bottom [158. Entire forests have been found buried in this area, including plum trees complete with their leaves and fruits [159 and also palm trees and huge exotic ferns [160. Animals are also found buried in this ____muck, the most notable of which is the mammoth. As George Gaylord Simpson was astute enough to realise, catastrophic events at the end of the Pleistocene were not only much more severe in North than in South America

6. The Flood [The Velikovskian]
_Velikovsky described the ____muck beds across Alaska and Canada, which are hundreds of feet deep along river valleys.(39) The river valleys contain hundreds of feet of frozen ____muck, comprised of the shattered bones of Ice Age fauna and man, splintered forests and artifacts -- all of which is highly indicative of an immense flood. As this water reentered the ocean at the Bering Strait, it would have carved immense submarine canyons in that region. One would expect an immense backflow off the land, based on having a tidal flood flow north in the Pacific basin and into the inverted V created by the meeting of Asia and Alaska at the Bering Strait. This, of course, is well supported by the muck-filled river valleys. However, some of the world's largest submarine canyons are also found on the Bering Sea's continental margin. The detritus carried by flood water would cut deep canyons. According to Paul R. Carlson and Herman A. Karl of the U.S.G.S.: Seven large submarine canyons cut the Beringian [Bering] Sea continental margin. Three of these are among the world's largest submarine canyons. Bering is 400 [kilometres] long. Navarinsky and Zhemchug are each 100 [kilometres] wide at the shelf break and volumes of sediment removed from these three canyons range from 4,300 to 5,800 km^3, an order of magnitude [ten times] larger than any submarine canyons incised in the margin of the lower 48 states. (40

7. Pole-Shift [Catastrophism & Ancient History Journal]
Frank C. Hibben, in his book, The Lost Americans, describes the resulting mass graves: "Interspersed in the muck depths and sometimes through the very piles of bones and tusks themselves are layers of volcanic ash." There were, he adds, "volcanic eruptions of tremendous proportions ... [and atmospheric disturbances of unparalleled violence." Such eruptions on a great scale are a corollary of any shift of the earth's crust. Too, as one side of the crust moved south, the other side of the globe was moving north.

[Lloyd]

8912

COSMIC METALS ON EARTH

PARAPHRASED SUMMARY FROM:
9. Scientific Evidence for A Major World Catastrophe About 11,500 Years Ago: A Preliminary Selection [SIS C&C Review]
_The Metal Factor
[NOTE: Drift means glacial drift, i.e. rocks, sand, silt, soil etc, deposited by glaciers and/or floods.]

_Especially noteworthy are the numerous instances of 'drift'-age animals and plants found agglutinated by, embedded within, or unexpectedly associated with, certain ores.

Metals with Fossils; and Locations:
.in a vein of lead; Derbyshire UK [35,
.cemented in a cave; Gailenreuth, Germany [36,
.cemented in red iron-oxide stained breccia; Kesslerloch, Switzerland [37,
.within nearly pure iron-ore infilling rock-fissures descending to 720 ft deep; Carniola, Austria [38
.cemented in caves; Wellington Valley, Australia [39.
.strongly ferruginised cave breccias; Tea Tree Cave in Queensland, Australia [40.
.with metalliferous staining in 'drift'-age sands and gravel; Turnham Green and Acton, Middlesex, UK last century 1800s [41.
.with pronounced ferruginous patina in blue-grey iron-sand; Vilyui in Siberia, Russia [42.

Metals with Non-fossils, Drift etc; and Locations:
.small soapstone idol with reddish iron oxide in 'glacial' deposits over 280 feet deep; Nampa, Idaho, late last century 1800s [43.
.ferruginised (oxide of iron) stones and sand grains in the 'drift'; At many UK localities: Thorne in South Yorkshire UK [44; Alderbury in Wiltshire UK [45; Everthorpe in Humberside UK (as much as 15 feet thick) [46.
.black manganous staining in the 'drift' gravels; Radley UK and other places around Abingdon UK (formation of 'brief duration') [47.
.ferruginisation [iron oxide] accompanied by gold, platinum and diamonds in 'drift' deposits; France, Germany, Poland, western Russia [48 ; and various other European and near-eastern countries
.ferruginisation with manganese, copper, asphalt and oil; Israel and Jordan [49,50,51,52.
.flakes of gold (sometimes at great depths) along with platinum, lead, zinc and iron ore in 'drift'; Indiana, Michigan and Minnesota [54, Virginia and the Carolinas [55, (occupying the uneven surfaces of the underlying bedrock)
.nickel and innumerable pieces of nearly pure copper in 'drift'; Sudbury in Ontario, Canada [56 metal'.
.one piece, almost 3,000 lbs. of copper, in ferruginous clay;
.smaller copper pieces with good quality diamonds [57, in same deposits; Ontario to Ohio (58).
.diamonds (which occur in silicate rocks [59 associated with volcanism [60] ) in 'drift'; southern margins of Hudson Bay, Canada [61] (where no recent volcanic activity has occurred)
.polymetallic nodules & massive sulfides, manganese nodules; on the ocean floors: see maps: http://www.geol-amu.org/notes/be2c-3-5.htm

_Metals with Loess; and Locations:
.with red-hued manganese nodules called Pisolites; Northern China [63.
.with similar metalliferous; other Chinese regions
.with up to 20.26% aluminium and 7.80% iron; Nebraska [64. generally dominated by silica and heavy minerals [65,
.'Drift' gravel with manganese, cobalt, iron, lead, zinc and copper; mouth of the Fraser River in British Columbia, Canada [66.

_"Some of these ores (which are high-temperature products) occur in non-metamorphosed [non high heat product] sediments [53.
Under normal circumstances such ores would be produced in conjunction with metamorphic or metamorphosed rocks, not with non-metamorphosed sediments. These examples appear to have been ____injected into the sediments by some external mechanism.
_"Such high temperature ores are not produced by agencies which accumulate loess or 'drift'-like deposits. They are produced deep within the Earth or arrive meteorically, having formed elsewhere under extremely hot conditions.
_"The occurrence of silica in the loess correlates with the aforementioned silicate origins of diamonds, locally present in the drift of many areas and both with the marked volcanism of late Pleistocene times.
_"The deposition of volcanically produced dust, ash, diamond forming silicate rocks and high-temperature ores coevally with the slaughter on all continents of organisms of practically every kind, as well as the chaotic burial of all this diverse material, would seem to be valid reflections of a once terrible reality traceable on many of Earth's land areas. The same scenario is also apparently discernible under the sea, albeit in less detail.
_"Sea bed clays and muds from the Arctic possess brown colours due to the huge quantities within them of oxidised ferric iron particles,
.while others from the White Sea, the Barents Sea and off the Siberian coast contain a notably high amount of manganese oxide [69.
."Floor sediments from the Pacific Ocean proved to contain layers of volcanic ash and large amounts of nickel and radium - two elements almost completely absent from sea water. Nickel, moreover, is very rare in most terrestrial rocks and continental sediments [70.
_"The brown and red clays which extend across large areas of the ocean floors also contain huge numbers of ferromanganese concretions or nodules. They are irregularly shaped and vary in size from that of garden peas to lumps as much as 3 feet (0.9 m.) in long diameter [71. Like the red clays they are naturally radioactive [72. These nodules occur in unbelievable numbers in certain areas although, overall, their distribution is patchy, the reason for which remains unclear [73. In the areas of their greatest abundance, however, they cover almost 100% of the sea bed [74. ____Collectively they are thought to represent between 100 and 200 billion tonnes of material [75. The nodules are rich in cobalt, nickel, copper and other heavy ores ... [and] these metals are rare in sea water.... The fact [is] a very high percentage of these nodules occur on the surface of the uppermost layers of the red clay.... [77. Moreover, ____these red clays are themselves geologically youthful. That being so, ____the nodules which lie upon them must be at least as youthful if not more so - i.e. they cannot be very old (terrestrially) at all. Consideration of all the foregoing facts indicates that ____these nodules have been acquired by Earth en masse in geologically very [recent] times, more or less simultaneously everywhere. This implies a cosmic origin which, if correct, signifies ____a sudden arrival in vast numbers of a veritable blizzard of metallic missiles. Interestingly, ____the oceanographer Petterson concluded that the nickel and iron in the brown Pacific clays were of meteoric origin [78, an idea broadly in agreement with others about the origins of other sea floor deposits [79, 80."

[Lloyd]

8971

FOSSIL CONCRETIONS

Trying to figure out how fossils got coated or associated with metals as mentioned above. Now here we see they can be found within concretions. This tries to explain them by uniformitarian means, but delicate fossils can only be formed catastrophically, by being rapidly buried and sealed off from decomposition. I'm working on this at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/66/thread

Mazon Creek fossil beds
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazon_Creek_fossil_beds
_The Mazon Creek fossil beds ... fossils are preserved in ironstone concretions
_These concretions frequently preserve both hard and soft tissues of animal and plant materials, as well as many soft-bodied organisms that do not normally fossilize.
_The Mazon Creek fossils are found in the Upper Carboniferous Francis Creek Shale ... 25 to 30 meters of shale
_The fossiliferous concretions are usually found within the thickest deposits of Francis Creek. The concretions occur in localized deposits within the silty to sandy mudstones, in the lower four metres of the formation.
_The remains of plants and animals were rapidly buried by the sediment deposited in the deltaic system. Bacterial decomposition of the remains produced carbon dioxide that combined with dissolved iron from the groundwater. This process formed siderite in the sediments surrounding the remains, forming detailed casts of their structure. Lithification of the sediments formed protective nodules of ironstone around the now fossilized remains. This mode of preservation is known as authigenic mineralisation.

Scientists Have Cracked The Mystery Of How Fossil Concretions Form
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbress ... 1094513857
_Some documented concretions are more than nine feet in diameter.
_Concretions were thought to take hundreds of thousands to millions of years to form. However, they instead apparently grow at a very fast rate over just several months to several years. This new observation could also explain why the fossils found inside the concretions are so well preserved.
_As an animal or plant dies, the remains become embedded in sedimentary layers deposited on the bottom of a lake or of the sea. The decaying organic matter releases calcium, which reacts to form the mineral calcite. The calcite then cements together sand and clay particles. This happens quickly, before the animal or plant decays completely, helping preserve the fossil.
More and more sediment is cemented together over time, forming the hard, compact concretion around the fossil. As soon as the formation of calcite stops, as there is no more ... calcium present in the sediment, also the growth of the concretions suddenly stops, forming a sharp contact between the concretions and the surrounding sediment.

[Lloyd]

9188

COMETARY DEBRIS

In my workshop I posted Catastrophism.com search results for cometary debris at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/67/thread

It got 32 results, which I haven't perused yet. I guess it will be hard to determine if debris found on Earth in strata and associated with fossils etc is from a comet or a nova. Comets may have come from a Saturn nova, so the debris then would be from both. There seems to be different debris in different locations, different metals and other debris. Some hydrocarbons seem to be from comets and meteors, but Thomas Gold may have good evidence that they also come from volcanism etc.

I think I'll have time on Saturday to investigate this issue a bit.

[JP Michael]

Have you had any thought about the Saturn myth of that planet "eating his own children"? What's the possibility that the asteroid belt, comets, space debris and Saturn's rings being comprised of the remnants of several (perhaps several dozen, even!) destroyed Saturnian moons?

[Lloyd]

9299

COSMIC DEBRIS FALLS ON EARTH

JP, I don't have significant evidence yet that cosmic debris in the inner solar system comes from destroyed moons of Saturn. The myth of Saturn having children and then eating them suggests that Saturn produced some large asteroids or moons, possibly from a nova-like flare-up, and then reconstituted some of them. Since Earth, Venus and Mars were apparently in polar alignment with Saturn, they may have received less cosmic debris than any moons that were orbiting Saturn equatorially. It seems that Saturnian moons would only have been destroyed by falling back into Saturn, I guess except for any moons that may have orbited very closely.

I'll try to see how much info Cardona had on flare-ups eventually. In the meantime the best info I have is by Charles Chandler at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=8292 and http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=18943. The second linked paper explains toward the end how flares cause a star to become a red dwarf star etc.

MAJOR FINDING
My major finding recently was that Cardona's books seem to show that, despite his own idea that a major Saturn flare-up occurred about 10,000 years ago, it actually likely occurred about 4,300 years ago or so some decades to centuries after the Great Flood. That's based on the reasoning that the Flood deposited almost all of the sedimentary rock on the continents and ocean floors and that glaciation and the Younger Dryas impacts, which Cardona associated with the main Saturn flare-up, occurred on top of the sedimentary rock strata.

Actually, a greater Saturn flare-up must have occurred before the Great Flood, which produced the comets and other debris that rained down onto Earth during the Flood and is found throughout much of the sedimentary rock record, along with many of the fossils. So there were likely 2 or more Saturn flare-ups over the time period of about 4,500 to 4,200 years ago. And the breakup of the Saturn system, where Earth, Mars, Venus and possibly some large moons drifted away from Saturn, must have occurred within that time period.

Recently, I've been looking for evidence that specific materials in the rock record is likely cosmic debris that fell to Earth during the major cataclysms. I hope to get a lot of the evidence organized and better confirmed before long.