Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

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Expand view Topic review: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Tue May 20, 2025 10:30 pm

370294

DEADLY ANCIENT RADIATION

Brigit quoted Dave Talbott at viewtopic.php?p=11804&hilit=myths#p11804.
"Earth-shaking electrical activity recorded on stone around the world and recounted in archetypal myths and symbols provoked a collective response from ancient people as if their lives depended on it. In fact the lives of millions of people did depend on their response to these events, since as Peratt himself acknowledged, the synchrotron radiation would have most likely been deadly."
ref: DAVID TALBOTT: Carved on Stone -- New Light on the Electric Universe | Thunderbolts Podcast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piKuO4YeRFQ

Peratt thought the radiation came from extreme solar flares, but some Saturnists figure the polar Saturn configuration may have been the source, or maybe both, if the Saturn train was closing in on the Sun. I found recently that red dwarfs flare a lot and can produce the high current needed for synchrotron radiation from the anciently reported polar column. So that seems like a promising lead. Before that I found that if the crescent in many ancient myths was the sunlit part of Saturn and if the crescent apparition lasted for some years, decades, or centuries, then the angle between Saturn in the lead and Earth trailing behind and the Sun at a distance had to be a constant angle of about 45 degrees. And the crescent would have been visible at least as far as the orbit of Pluto.

Ev Cochrane seems to accept Robert Driscoll's old model of the Saturn train planets in a line revolving around Saturn while the system revolved around the Sun, like someone twirling a single string with 3 balls at different lengths (or like a shishkabob). But nothing else is known to revolve like that and it would not allow a constant sunlit crescent to be visible on Saturn from Earth. Ev also says there is no clear early mention of Saturn in myths. So it's not certain that Saturn was involved in the polar configuration. Nor do the early myths apparently mention Jupiter. And lately, as I tried to find connection between ancient rock art and early myths, I found that all of the rock art images that I figured might have shown the polar configuration planets were said to have been common in the southern hemisphere, as well as in the north. Since the polar planets should have been visible only in the north, it seems that those images (concentric circles, sun in crescent, star in crescent, star in circle) did not represent the polar planets.

I've been reading some of Marinus van der Sluijs's articles and I think he claims that those figures were plasma apparitions in the plasma column. Since rock art from all around the Earth shows the plasma column, he figures there must have been 8 of them or so, in order for one or two to be visible at any location. Either that or the column moved around via magnetic pole excursions.

So in my research, there's still a disconnect between rock art and ancient myths, because rock art doesn't clearly show the planets, but ancient myths seem to clearly refer to them. I found that rock art sites were considered to be sacred by many ancient cultures, so it seems likely that there has to be a connection. I'm keeping my eyes peeled.

How deadly was the radiation? I suspect that it occurred during the Younger Dryas cataclysms and it could help explain the extinction of most large mammals.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Brigit » Wed May 14, 2025 11:38 pm

Lloyd says, "Trivial note: Regarding my view counts, from March 20 - April 6 it was ~100/day, then from April 11 - 25 it was ~300 - 600/day, and since then it's been well under <100/day. So was there bot activity for 2 weeks?"

There are some big concerns about the internet search engines and platforms right now. The concerns are that not only are as much as half of the view counts from non-human users, but the media is also becoming more automated. The twenty-somethings have a name for it. They call it the dead internet theory or the "encrapification" of the internet, but I don't like to be crude. It's just what they call it.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Tue May 13, 2025 2:13 pm

370098

Trivial note: Regarding my view counts, from March 20 - April 6 it was ~100/day, then from April 11 - 25 it was ~300 - 600/day, and since then it's been well under <100/day. So was there bot activity for 2 weeks?

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Tue May 13, 2025 5:30 am

370085

I've been keeping track of how many views my previous posts get for several years. My last post was a few days ago and the count was 370021. Now it's only 64 more. But prior to my last post the count each time was usually many hundreds. So maybe that means bots were raising the count, but now the bots are kept away. Maybe Nick knows. My weekly thread Major SCI News Blog still got many hundreds of views Saturday, so I don't know, but would like to find out what it means.

8 PLASMA COLUMNS, 1 POLAR TRIO

I just posted that at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... mns-1-trio. Whether lots of people are viewing or not, I made another interesting discovery today by reading this article published in 2013: https://www.academia.edu/50051117. The author, Marinus, who was a rock art co-researcher with Peratt, concluded that Peratt was wrong about the ancient polar column being confined to the south pole. Since the plasma figures were seen all around the Earth, Marinus decided that the magnetic poles wandered a lot, or there were numerous poles. I found that there were likely 8 or more poles on several occasions in ancient times that lasted for somewhat long periods of time.

That means only people near the north pole would have seen the plasma apparition overlapping the Saturn Trio, while at other northern locations they would have seen them somewhat far apart in the sky, the Trio being at the pole and the plasma column much farther south. In the southern hemisphere there would have been only plasma columns visible, since the north pole would have been below the horizon.

Saturnists have figured that Saturn, Venus and Mars were depicted in ancient images as concentric circles, crescents, circle within crescent, rayed star, rayed sun, rayed star within circle, rayed star within crescent, and don't forget Venus as dragon. AI tells me those images are found worldwide. Snakes are found in ancient rock art, but not dragons. Sometimes snakes are with wings or legs. The ouroboros snake is also not seen in rock art.

So now I want to determine if the polar Trio was ever depicted in prehistoric rock art, or only in later art. I'll have to ask Ev for his thoughts.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Thu May 08, 2025 4:24 am

370021

That number is kind of easy to remember, because 3x7=21. I think I remember a friend's phone number as 3175171, because 3x17=51 and 71 is 17 backwards and there's progression of odd numbers.

Hi Brigit. You're the one who told me about the Septuagint dating a few years ago. JP Michael disagreed at first, but then he read a book that persuaded him that the Septuagint is indeed much more correct than the Masoretic, which latter was apparently intentionally dated in a way to try to disprove Christianity.

Velikovsky first proposed, I think, that Saturn went nova and poured a lot of water onto the Earth, including salt, but I don't recall him claiming that the oceans formed from that, but were merely added to. Dwardu thought the polar column vacuumed up a lot of ocean water to explain how river beds can be seen on the ocean floor and canyons on the continental shelves. And he thought the column got severed by Mars, I think, and the water in the column filled up our oceans again. But I don't know of evidence that a plasma column can do that.

And Ev says now that Venus, behind Mars, I think, is what myths indicate appeared blindingly bright during the Creation event, so I'm not sure Saturn was involved. Venus is still very hot, so it's plausible that it brightened somehow, but I don't know how. It's more plausible that Saturn had a nova event, but Ev says the evidence that Saturn was in the polar configuration is slim and late. It appears that Mars probably had an ocean, which was possibly removed by Venus, although there is no water on Venus now. AI told me a few weeks ago that a high current polar plasma column would be devastating for a planet with life, but if Earth was shielded by Venus and Mars to some extent, I guess that could have removed the ocean from Mars and sent some of it to Earth. But it seems unlikely to have amounted to a whole lot on Earth. Much of it would likely have dispersed in space.

I think the best explanation of the Ice Age is what Michael Oard has developed. The Earth gradually cooled off after the Great Flood due to dust from volcanism and impacts. It took about 500 years for the ice sheets to reach maximum size. Oard doesn't seem to explain how the ice sheets melted, but others have explained that impacts caused it. That was the Younger Dryas impacts.

TIMELINE
I was just checking out the timeline for the period from the Flood till the Younger Dryas and thence to the Exodus. There seems to be pretty good evidence for the Flood and Noah's Ark and maybe the Tower of Babel and the Exodus. It seems plausible that Moses could have had access to Egyptian records, which he used to write Genesis. Below uses the Septuagint timeline minus a century or so, in order to get the Exodus at 1446 BC, which seems to be the best date for that. The years are birth years etc.
5344 BC Adam
3782 BC Noah
3280 BC Shem
3182 BC NOAH'S FLOOD
3180 BC Arphaxad
3045 BC Cainan
2915 BC Shelah
2785 BC Eber
2651 BC Peleg (239>2412) The Earth was said to be divided during the time of Peleg.
2521 BC Reu
2500 BC YOUNGER DRYAS --- So the Earth divided may mean the Planets divided.
2389 BC Serug
2259 BC Nahor
2080 BC Terah
1950 BC Abraham
1850BC Isaac
1790BC Jacob
1699BC Joseph
1526BC Moses
1446BC EXODUS

So this all seems to work out well. I was afraid it might not, so I'm surprised. I'm surprised that Peleg lived past 2500 BC, which is the date I estimate for the Younger Dryas, because Oard said the Ice Age ended 700 years after the Great Flood. Peleg lived at about the time of the Tower of Babel destruction. So the Tower of Babel was possibly destroyed during the Younger Dryas impacts. The myths could have referred to the polar column as the Tower, or there could have been an earthly tower that was built and was destroyed by the cataclysm. David Rohl seemed to find good evidence that there was an earthly tower that was destroyed and some of the Sumerians moved after that to the Nile where they started or joined civilization there.

Peleg meant divided. Was it the people who divided, or the planets that divided, or both? The Younger Dryas cataclysm seems to be close to the right time for the planets to have dispersed from the polar configuration. So it's plausible that the breakup of the system contributed a lot to the cataclysm. By this timeline, Sumer started building large structures before the cataclysm, while Egypt didn't start building pyramids till a century or more after the cataclysm, although there were people living there prior.

Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Brigit » Mon May 05, 2025 10:25 pm

Also, in the planetary capture model, periods of prolonged cold and heat -- which are also the subject of many myths and legends -- would correspond to the temporarily elliptical orbit of the earth around the Sun. That is, it would have made excursions further away from the Sun and possibly closer in, until it was settled into its current orbit. Therefore, an ice age would be a logical outcome of the model.

re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Brigit » Mon May 05, 2025 9:57 pm

Lloyd says, "GREAT FLOOD I don't believe in "creation", but Creation geologists & scientists have good explanations for the Great Flood as the cause of most of Earth's sedimentary rock. Most Creationists accept the Masoretic Bible's dating of the Great Flood at 2300 something to 2400 something BC, but someone on the TB forum informed me that the Septuagint Bible is more reliable. It dates the Great Flood at about 3200 BC."

Hello Lloyd.
I'm sorry, I did not mean to give any impression about the Septuagint/LXX being more reliable than the Masoretic Text/MT in general. We did discuss the fact that in the LXX and the MT, chapters 5 & 11 in the book of Genesis are quite different from one another. This gives the different chronologies. LXX and Josephus, a historian of the 1st century, follow the older chronology. The Primeval Chronology gives a date of +/-3300 BC for the Deluge.

However, there is a larger question which comes up, and that is the source of the earth's oceans.

In my view, and as I understand Velikovsky's work and Wal Thornhill's Electric Universe model, the oceans were deposited by earth's (former brown dwarf) primary star. And perhaps the salt water depositions happened in several stages, or episodes.

The deluge, remembered near-universally in the folk religions and sacred texts of the world, not just in the Old Testament, would have been the most recent -- and the last -- deposition of salt water on the earth. This is where so many of the myths and legends, once again, overlap with the science of the space age: the rings of Saturn are similar to the waters of the sea. And not only that, Saturn's rings are arguably recent, having had no time to become darkened by interplanetary dust and removed by other forces.







ref: page 48 https://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/php ... &start=705

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Mon May 05, 2025 4:35 pm

369866

SAHARA DESERTIFICATION

I just skimmed over a paper Plasmaglyphs part 1. apparently published about 2018. In that paper at https://www.academia.edu/69494985/Plasm ... view-paper the author said:
Origin of Sahara and “Desert Belt”: The truth is that there is no explanation currently for how the Sahara Savannah turned into hundreds of feet thick of sand, across an entire continent. And no one wants to talk about it, either, including from the EU, Hancock et al…, Sitchin-Donakin et al…, camps. It is a major problem. Though Wal Thornhill has mentioned it, and some of the EU Geology catastrophists, nobody has specifically done a study comparing the Sahara sands with the Martian samples. The author did a brief sampling, but results are not written, as of yet. Eye of the Sahara - Biggest Thunderbolt strike (Credit: Wikipedia, Credit: theecologist.org). “Desertification” (cyclical definition) due to unexplained shifting climate forces. Sometimes a comet is blamed, sometimes Precession/wobble, sometimes humans. The simplicity of the answer is obvious: the desert belt was dumped on Earth. However, not by the moon, but by Venus and then Mars. The shift in climate was first caused by the Moon and the Younger Dryas. The two events go hand in hand. A mutually supportive discordant cycle.
DATING VENUS & MARS ENCOUNTERS
He seemed to have followed Velikovsky's dating of the Venus and Mars encounters. I don't see much support for that. Those encounters seem to me to date to the Younger Dryas, which I date at c. 2500 BC.

SAHARA SAND ORIGIN
He said the sand of the Sahara came from Venus and Mars, but it seems more likely to have come from a Younger Dryas flood of the Sahara by impacts in the Mediterranean Sea and Indian Ocean, which the OzGeologic video channel discussed. I'm willing to discuss for details. I haven't looked yet to see details about the sand etc.

EYE OF THE SAHARA
The Eye of the Sahara surely isn't due to a lightning strike. Is there evidence of lightning making such a pattern? I read that the rock strata there show that there was a sort of bubble in the strata and the top was removed. I'm guessing that the Younger Dryas Sahara flood washed away the top of it, leaving behind the concentric rings patter.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Mon May 05, 2025 3:48 pm

369852

YOUNGER DRYAS DATING CAUTION

I told Ev Cochrane about the La Lindosa rock art and extinct animals images in it. He expressed interest, but also caution about relying on Creationist literature and/or supposed dates of Abraham in attempts to date any extinction event to 2400 BCE. I replied that I'm not making that mistake, as I don't have firm dates for much of anything. Offhand, I don't know what Abraham-related datings put the Younger Dryas at 2400 BC. What I think are the best dates for Abraham are around 1900-1800 BC, which may be the time of the destruction of the Cities of the Plain by the Dead Sea by an impact or airburst. I've seen what seem to be good evidence for that on video.

GREAT FLOOD
I don't believe in "creation", but Creation geologists & scientists have good explanations for the Great Flood as the cause of most of Earth's sedimentary rock. Most Creationists accept the Masoretic Bible's dating of the Great Flood at 2300 something to 2400 something BC, but someone on the TB forum informed me that the Septuagint Bible is more reliable. It dates the Great Flood at about 3200 BC. The fact that most dating methods greatly misdate known events, like the Mt. St. Helens eruption/s and the Hawaiian volcanic eruptions, shows that those dating methods are wrong. C14 seems to a much better method, although it's likely also imperfect. C14 dates dinosaur bones, coal and diamonds at 20-50 thousand years old. So there's good reason to scrap other conventional methods. C14 is now produced by cosmic rays striking N2 in the upper atmosphere, between 9 and 15 km altitude. If C14 levels were different before the Great Flood, that means those dates could come down to 5 thousand years old. We know the sky was different about 5,000 years ago, so C14 levels could definitely have been much less before the Flood.

ICE AGE
Michael Oard is a Creationist climate scientist and he has some well-reasoned articles and videos explaining that the Ice Age only lasted about 700 years right after the Great Flood. So that would put the end of the Ice Age at 2500 BC by Septuagint dating of the Flood. Oard seems to go with Masoretic dating, which would put the end of the Ice Age at 1800 BC, which I think is way too recent. Most Creationists seem to believe there was only one Great Flood, so they seem to prefer to believe that the Younger Dryas event was not a Flood, but the ice sheets melted rapidly and caused sever flooding over much of the Earth. So they seem to confuse that Flood with the Great Flood, wrongly confirming the Masoretic.

PANGAEA BREAKUP
Mike Fischer has a site, NewGeology.us, at which he shows that the Pangaea supercontinent broke up due to an asteroid impact and the continents moved rapidly to their present locations by sliding on the plasma Moho layer. He thinks that occurred a few centuries after the Great Flood, but it makes more sense that it occurred late during the Flood. Some Creationists tend to date the rapid continental "drift" to the beginning of the Flood. I think it occurred late in the Flood. First, impacts hit the ocean and the supercontinent, causing severe rain. The Moon or another body may have been close enough to Earth to cause tsunamis, especially if its Earth orbit was elliptical. I guess earthquakes could have caused tsunamis too. Baumgartner says there were 30-70 thousand tsunamis during the Great Flood.

SEDIMENTARY ROCK FORMATION
If there were no mountains on Pangaea, the tsunamis would have been able to cover all of the land eventually and to deposit the mile-thick sediments, which became sedimentary rock. The continents broke off the supercontinent after much of the sediment was deposited, since some sedimentary layers cover areas on several continents. The shock of the impact on Pangaea caused impulse mountains to form right away, like the Appalachians. India shoved under Asia forming the Himalayas. Australia broke off of India. The Rockies and Andes formed as the Americas came to a halt. The east Pacific rise stopped North America, although the plate slid a few hundred miles over the rise first, raising the Colorado plateau etc. Creationist scientist John Baumgartner has a video that explains the sediment deposition during the Flood in detail, which I plan to write about soon.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Mon May 05, 2025 3:28 am

369778

Somehow, my last post didn't post. Now I have to remember what it said, while I add more to it.

VENUS & FLIES
I got AI to make these comments, Nick.
Both Peratt’s plasma figures and Talbott’s Saturn theory propose that ancient motifs like the winged disk and flying insects (such as scarabs) are stylized records of spectacular plasma and planetary events witnessed in the ancient sky. Peratt’s research shows that high-energy plasma discharges create luminous, winged shapes similar to those found in ancient art, suggesting these motifs depict real atmospheric phenomena. Talbott’s Saturn theory argues that close planetary alignments and electrical activity produced radiant disks with “wings” or “arms,” inspiring myths of winged suns and beetles. Thus, these symbols may reflect ancient observations of dramatic celestial events, rather than just abstract religious or solar imagery.

The association of Venus with swarms of bees, flies, or wasps in myths-such as the Sherente story where Venus is trailed by bees-mirrors a global pattern where Venus is linked to insect motifs, as seen in the Maya calling Venus the "Wasp Star" and in various traditions where Venus is connected to buzzing or stinging creatures. This convergence aligns with Peratt’s and Talbott’s theories, which suggest that ancient observers interpreted dramatic celestial phenomena (possibly plasma discharges or planetary apparitions) as living beings or swarms, leading to myths that describe Venus accompanied by insect-like entities. Such motifs reflect a mythological encoding of striking visual events in the sky, with the persistent, sometimes overwhelming presence of insects serving as an apt metaphor for the awe-inspiring and sometimes fearsome manifestations of Venus in ancient cosmologies.
So maybe a plasma apparition accounted for the wings of the winged disk and winged creatures. In my post on the Evolution of Religion I found that the Squatterman and the Tree of Life were apparently the same plasma figure seen on Venus/Mars. Dave Talbott and Ev Cochrane figured Venus gave off streamers, but the plasma figures seemed to be in the same place as the streamers, so I wonder if they were the same thing or if they were two different things, kind of overlapping.

IS GENESIS HISTORY? VIDEOS
I organized their video titles along with the links into convenient categories at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ory-videos.
The categories are PREFLOOD — NOAH’S FLOOD — GEOLOGY — DATING — MOUNTAINS — GRAND CANYON — COAL — DINOSAURS — FOSSILS — POST-FLOOD — BIBLE EVENTS

SATURNIST MYTHS & PHYSICAL MODEL
I also organized all my posts on myths and the Saturn Model in one post at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... cles-index.

LA LINDOSA ROSETTA STONE?
See https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... cles-index. While making the previous post, I came across Ancient Architects' video about the 8-mile-long La Lindosa rock art site in Colombia and realized that the images of extinct animals, such as the giant sloths, means at least some of the site must predate the Younger Dryas event, since that event likely wiped out those now extinct animals. So I figured if it includes any plasma figures or "sun" figures, it may show what apparitions were seen before the YD cataclysm. And that might provide a clue about how ancient myths evolved and guided civilization. Mainly, I want to know when and how the Saturn trio broke up and how they were involved in cataclysms on Earth. The smoking gun needs to turn up any day now.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by nick c » Thu May 01, 2025 2:24 am

Lloyd wrote:And Venus was said by some cultures to be connected with flies or wasps,
I read a while back in The Raw and the Cooked [by Claude Levi-Strauss, First Harper Colophon Edition, (1975) p 250] a Sherente (South American) myth about Venus being followed by a swarm of bees. When I read your post it immediately brought it to mind.
M138 Sherente. "The Planet Venus"

Venus (a masculine personage) was living in human shape among men. His body was covered in malodorous ulcers and behind him was a buzzing swarm of bees. All the people turned up their noses when he passed and refused him when he asked for permission to rest in their houses.
Only the Indian Wainkaura, made the poor wretch welcome and gave him a new mat on which to sit. He asked his guest whence he came and whither he was bound. Venus explained that he had lost his way.

[snip]

Venus made a large boat in which Wainkaura took his place along with his family. Venus took leave and departed, a whirlwind lifted him up to the sky.
At once a distant noise became audible. Then the flood came and carried them all away. Before long all drowned or died from hunger. Only Wainkaura and his family escaped.
(emphasis added)

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Wed Apr 30, 2025 10:11 pm

365914

ROCK ART & WINGED DISKS

I copied images from a few Kronos videos today at https://lenkinder.substack.com/p/rock-a ... eos-images.

The first half are rock art images. The rest are mostly winged disk images not from rock art.

I think Dave Talbott first had the idea that the winged disk was Saturn and its magnetic field. But Ev Cochrane said recently that the wings were not likely its magnetic field. That seems true because one would need to be above Saturn's equator to see the magnetic field as wing-shaped. However, the ancients were apparently below Saturn's south pole, so the field should have looked circular, if it was visible. AI said planet magnetic fields could be visible if there's thick plasma or dust etc, but we're looking for wing shapes, not circle, at this point.

The thunderbird may have been closely related to the winged disk. The scarab beetle is pretty definitely related. And Venus was said by some cultures to be connected with flies or wasps, which seems to indicate that the flying scarab beetle image is related to the fly and wasp image.

The Kronos author found a pattern in ancient images involving 4 parts: 1. a winged disk above; 2. a person or tree standing under it; 3. an animal under the person; 4. two identical objects or animals or person on each side of the person under the winged disk. Each of those varied a lot, but the same pattern was passed on all the way down to present. I wrote about that in The Evolution of Religion at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... f-religion. I copied a lot of images from one of the Kronos videos there to show how the pattern apparently evolved.

I've been thinking for a few months that, since rock art was likely created by the ancients while they were observing polar plasma apparitions, it should be better to analyze those moreso than later images that were created in early civilizations, which were likely relying on memories of how their elders or ancestors described the apparitions. Gobekli Tepe and a few other similar sites nearby in Turkey are said to be older than any other ancient community facilities. However, it still seems likely that the images at those sites were still based on memories or traditions. So they likely were not creating images as events were occurring in the sky. I think places like Stone Henge were likely contemporary with Gobekli Tepe etc. Petroglyphs have continued to be made down to recent times, but the earliest ones are the ones we need to study the most. I think rock art first appeared after the Great Flood about 5,200 years ago and civilizations may have started a century or more after the Younger Dryas cataclysms, which I date at about 4,500 years ago, which may be when the Saturn Trio broke up.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Tue Apr 29, 2025 9:00 pm

369404

2012 EU CATASTROPHISM PAPER HIGHLIGHTS
Trevor Palmer's 2012 paper, Science and Catastrophism, from Velikovsky to the Present Day
https://www.academia.edu/22585665
{Following are excerpts from the above 2012 paper, which have the most significance for my studies. You may find other excerpts there interesting too. I plan to add this to my bibliography as a reference at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/cataclys ... ient-myths.}
__VENUS COMET TAIL
Further considerations involving escape velocity apply to Velikovsky’s theory that the object which became the planet Venus left Jupiter as a comet. In part I chapter II of Worlds in Collision, Velikovsky wrote that red dust, followed by gravel, fell on Egypt as the Earth entered deeper into the tail of this comet at the time of the Exodus. Five chapters later, he stated that stones from the same cometary tail fell on the Canaanites in the days of Joshua. It has now been established that cometary tails are formed by the evaporation of volatile material from the nucleus as it passes close to the Sun, with non-volatile material such as dust and gravel being carried along with the escaping gases. Typical comets, with nuclei a few kilometres in diameter, have two tails, one consisting of the gases, which are ionised (i.e. electrically charged), this tail always pointing directly away from the Sun, and the other consisting of dust, gravel and perhaps larger stones, this tail trailing behind the comet in its orbit, and normally appearing as the more spectacular of the two (Burnham, 2000; Steel, 2000, pp. 74-75; Man, 2001). A comet the size of Venus, i.e. one very much larger than a typical comet, could still have an ion tail, but not one containing dust and larger solid material, because the evaporation process could not possibly raise it to a speed in excess of 37,000 km/hr, the escape velocity necessary for solids to escape the gravitational constraints of a body like Venus. Thus, the possibility that Venus once had a cometary tail cannot be excluded, but it would not have been a particularly conspicuous one, and it could not have contained dust, gravel and stones to deposit on the Earth. ... we cannot entirely exclude the possibility that there was a cloud of dust, gravel and stones following Venus, which may have looked like a cometary tail, even though it could not have been thrown out from the planet.
__In the “Saturn Theory” developed during the 1980s by David Talbott and colleagues from the initial ideas of Velikovsky (and to which we shall return later), Venus was no longer thought to have been ejected from Jupiter as a comet, nor to have been a newcomer to the Solar System at the dawn of civilisation. As the theory developed, it was argued that the comet-like appearance of the planet inferred from ancient writings and depicted in rock-art images was the result of the discharge of plasma streamers, this relating to a period much earlier than the time of Velikovsky’s supposed Venus catastrophe (Talbott and Cochrane, 1984; Cochrane, 1988; Talbott, 2008).
__ORBIT CIRCULARIZATION
Regardless of timescale, British mathematician, Laurence Dixon, showed that considerations of the principles of conservation of energy and angular momentum demonstrated that it would have been possible for Venus to have moved to its present orbit following encounters with the Earth and Mars, but, assuming the masses of the planets remained constant, only if the first contact took place when the Earth was in an orbit in which its average distance from the Sun was around half of what it is now (Dixon, 2001). That is roughly consistent with what Velikovsky wrote in his 1942 summary, but, as currently understood, it would have put the Earth’s position at the time well outside of the “habitable zone”, where water could exist in liquid form at the surface of the planet (Fogg, 1992; Kasting, Whitmire and Reynolds, 1993; Weed, 2002). Neither human beings nor any other animal life could have existed under those conditions.
__VENUS FLIES
Worlds in Collision: all around the world people have associated the planet Venus with flies {probably due to a Peratt plasma apparition IMO. AI says, "The Maya referred to Venus as Xux Ek’, which translates as “Wasp Star” or “Fly Star”. This name appears in the Dresden Codex and other Maya sources, reflecting a cultural association between the planet Venus and stinging or flying insects."}
__EARLY BRONZE AGE CATASTROPHES
At the first SIS Cambridge Conference in 1993, John Bimson and Bob Porter, separately, gave assessments of Schaeffer’s findings in the light of subsequent developments in archaeology. They agreed that there was strong evidence of widespread catastrophic destructions of cities at the end of the Early Bronze Age, but the evidence for similar destructions at the end of the Middle Bronze Age, the time of the Venus catastrophe, was much more tenuous. Although there was evidence of earthquake damage at many of the sites, there was nothing to indicate the kind of cosmic catastrophe envisaged by Velikovsky, and the main reason why the destructions at the end of the Middle Bronze Age had seemed of particular significance to Schaeffer was that he found evidence to suggest they had been followed at each site by an occupational gap of 100 – 150 years. However, to Porter, it seemed likely that this apparent hiatus was simply an artefact of the dating procedure used by Schaeffer (Bimson, 1993; Porter, 1993).
__ICE CORES
Whilst it cannot be said that the ice-core evidence has provided conclusive proof against the theory of a global catastrophe in the fifteenth century BCE, it is evident that it has not provided any positive support for the notion.
__LINEAR SATURN MODEL PROBLEM
The “polar configuration” hypothesis ... maintains that Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars and Earth once orbited the Sun as a single linear unit, rotating about a point close to Saturn. ... “The most obvious objection to the Saturn theory is its apparent incompatibility with conventional astrophysics. ...{The theory needs} a viable physical model for the polar configuration” An early attempt at such a model (Grubaugh, 1993) was found by Slabinski to be untenable (Slabinski, 1994). In the year 2000, Italian mathematicians Emilio Spedicato and Antonino Del Popolo developed a model which showed that the polar configuration could hold together, but only for a very short period of time (Spedicato and Del Popolo, 2000). This model did not take into account tidal effects or electromagnetic forces, which offered some hope to the supporters of the Saturn theory, but the formulation of a viable physical model is still awaited. {At https://www.velikovsky.info/saturn-theory/: On Spedicato’s model, Cardona notes that: “.. the results from the equations involved did not confirm the required sustained dynamical stability of the model.[43] 43 On the contrary, it was found that the stability of such an axially aligned system would be lost “rather fast, with its maximum duration corresponding to only about 3 months, when its “expected stability should extend at least over several thousand years”}
__EARTH SURVIVAL PROBLEM
Speaking after Cochrane at the SIS Silver Jubilee conference, historian Peter James said that the most obvious problem with the Saturn Theory was not the lack of a viable physical model, nor the shortage of specific details which had so far been supplied, but how to explain how the Earth - and its inhabitants - could possibly have survived the upheaval of being wrenched from its position which was always close to Saturn and hurled into an independent orbit around the Sun. James suggested that the apparent description of Saturn in ancient writings as a brilliant object could be explained if a large body had crashed into Saturn at around this time and turned the planet into an incandescent ball of vapour, out of which Saturn’s rings were eventually formed (James, 2000).
__PERATT SOLAR WIND
Peratt has shown that an aurora would take the form of an enormous column if the solar wind was one or two orders of magnitude greater than it is at the present time, so the ancients may have witnessed a long-lasting high-energy auroral storm (Sluijs, 2008).
__COMET ENCKE CATASTROPHES
(Clube, 1984). Estimates of the range of diameters of cometary nuclei in the regions beyond Jupiter suggested that, although most would be between 1 and 10 km, there were likely to be a significant number as large as 200 km. Although small by planetary standards, a giant comet of this size could pose a very serious threat to Earth if propelled into the Inner Solar System. Even if there was no direct collision with the Earth, the giant nucleus could well disintegrate under the gravitational influence of the Sun, releasing large amounts of dust and boulders, to cause significant problems for life on Earth. Such a scenario, involving devastation on Earth because of a cluster of impacts over a short period of time, couple with global cooling caused by the dusting of the upper atmosphere, has been termed coherent catastrophism (Steel, 1995). Clube and Napier have argued that the present orbits of Comet Encke, the Taurid meteor stream and several asteroids, e.g. Oljato, indicate that they were all part of the same body, probably the nucleus of a giant comet, a little over 20,000 years ago. This giant comet, proto- Encke, came into the Inner Solar System and began to disintegrate during the Pleistocene epoch. They linked the glacial conditions of the Late Pleistocene to the dusting of the Earth’s atmosphere by some of the breakdown products. This situation eased around 10,000 years ago, allowing temperatures to rise, but remnants of the giant comet continued to threaten the Earth. Clube and Napier have suggested that the Earth encountered a swarm of meteors and cometary debris between around 2,500 and 2,100 BCE, when there appeared to have been a general deterioration in climate, and again at the time of the Exodus, which they dated to 1369 BCE. At times during the Early and Middle Bronze Ages, Comet Encke would have appeared as a brilliant object in the morning and evening sky, so myths and legends arising from catastrophes during this period may subsequently have been transferred to deities associated with the planet Venus, which would have been the brightest object in the morning and evening skies after Comet Encke dimmed following further disintegration (Clube and Napier, 1990, pp. 181-204). ... However, questions have been raised about how well the Clube-Napier theory can explain details of ancient literature and ancient art (Cochrane, 1998).
__3200 BC CATASTROPHE
Moving forward a few thousand years, Lonnie Thompson, a geophysicist and climatologist at Ohio State University, has assembled evidence from around the world of an abrupt climate change at approximately 3200 BCE, which was co-incident with structural changes in several emerging civilisations (Thompson, Mosley-Thompson et al, 2006; Thompson, 2010). Plants were covered by the Quelccaya ice cap in the Peruvian Andes at this time, and the Sahara switched from a habitable region to a barren desert. Also, tree rings from Ireland and England were unusually narrow, and there was an acidity peak in Greenland ice-cores (Baillie, 1999, pp. 51, 54). Thompson attributed the various indications of climate change and its consequences at around 3200 BCE to a dramatic fluctuation in solar energy reaching the Earth (http://www.researchnews.osu.edu/archive/5200event.htm). The University of Vienna geologist, Alexander Tollmann, together with his wife, Edith, had previously proposed that there had been an impact event at around 3150 BCE, following a larger one at around 7640 BCE (which they linked to the legend of Noah’s Flood) (Tollmann and Kristan-Tollmann, 1994). More recently, British engineers Alan Bond and Mark Hempsell have argued, on the basis of their claimed decipherment of an Assyrian inscription, that Sumerian astronomers in 3123 BCE recorded the passage of a fireball across the sky in a low, flat trajectory, heading in the direction of Austria. Bond and Hempsell went on to deduce that the fireball, an Aten asteroid, exploded in the vicinity of Köfels, causing an enormous landslide, of which evidence still exists (Bond and Hempsell, 2008).
__2300 BC CATASTROPHE
Clear indications of climate change, coincident with the collapse of civilisations, are also found at the end of the Early Bronze Age, dated to around 2300 BCE by conventional scholars, and also by Velikovsky in chapter XII of Earth in Upheaval. This was the period of Velikovsky’s proposed catastrophic episode associated with “Jupiter of the Thunderbolt”, when the Old Kingdom of Egypt fell, the impressive Troy II civilisation ended, and the cities of the Jordan plain, including Sodom and Gomorrah, were destroyed by fire from above. Irish oaks show an episode of reduced growth centred on 2345 BCE (Baillie, 1999, p. 54), and the American engineer, Moe Mandelkehr, compiled a wealth of evidence of catastrophic events and rapid climate change at this time, this being presented in a series of papers in the publications of the SIS from 1983 to 2007, and towards the end of that period as a book in three volumes (Mandelkehr, 2006). Similar evidence was also presented by others at the 2nd SIS Cambridge Conference in 1997 (Peiser, Palmer and Bailey, 1998, pp. 93-139).
__OLD KINGDOM CATASTROPHE
Investigations by Fekri Hassan of University College London have demonstrated that the Old Kingdom of Egypt came to an end at a time of droughts and famine (Hassan, 2007). Similarly, a detailed examination at Tell Leilan in northern Syria by a team led by Yale archaeologist Harvey Weiss, showed that the climate in the region of this previously thriving site had suddenly become arid at the end of the Early Bronze Age, resulting in its abandonment for a period of several centuries (Weiss, Courty et al, 1993; Kerr, 1998; Marshall, 2012). This seemed to be typical of what happened throughout the Middle East, and a layer of tephra particles at the level of climate change at several sites implicated a volcanic eruption as the cause. On the other hand, Peter James and Nick Thorpe considered it more likely that the prime cause had been an extraterrestrial impact (James and Thorpe, 1999, pp. 50-58). Mandelkehr suggested that, at this time, there had been an encounter with the Taurid complex (Mandelkehr, 2001, 2006), as in the Clube-Napier model. French geologist Marie-Agnès Courty, who had worked with Weiss, found that a dust layer at Tell Leilan and other sites in the Middle East showed evidence of having been formed as a result of an impact into igneous rock (Peiser, Palmer and Bailey, 1998, pp. 93-108). However, no appropriate impact crater has yet been discovered.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:25 pm

369384

MY DRAFTS

I have a bunch of unfinished drafts of catastrophism and other things at https://lenkinder.substack.com/p/drafts-contents. The section on Catastrophism is at https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/162152 ... astrophism. I just updated the Rock Arts draft at https://lenkinder.substack.com/p/rock-a ... ws-ladders. Here are the contents. I just added the section on Petry Rock Art.

PERATT PLASMA FIGURES https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... ma-figures
STICKMEN & BIGHORNS https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... d-bighorns
PETRY ROCK ART https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... y-rock-art
PATTERNED BODY ANTHROPOMORPHS (PBA) https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... morphs-pba
ROCK ART BLUEPRINT https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... -blueprint
ARROWHEADS IN ROCK ART https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... n-rock-art
ARROWHEADS COMMON https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... ads-common
ARROWHEAD MORPHING https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... d-morphing
ARROWHEAD MEANINGS https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... d-meanings
LADDERS, ROPES https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... ders-ropes
CONNECTION TO HEAVEN https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... -to-heaven
PERATT’S PLASMA LADDERS https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... ma-ladders
PLASMA LADDER CONNECTORS https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... connectors
CHINVAT CONNECTOR https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... -connector
ACADEMIA.EDU, ROCK ART, PERATT https://lenkinder.substack.com/i/158378 ... art-peratt

I'm trying to determine how rock art morphed into ancient civilization images on monuments, cylinder seals etc and what aspects of the Saturn model are explainable by rock art etc.

I don't know if everyone is aware of this, but AI makes research much easier than ever. It's not perfect, but a hello of a lot easier and faster than previously possible. It was able to find detailed info from Thornhill's, Kierein's, Van Flandern's, Peratt's, and even Charles Chandler's (when I provided a link to Charles material). It makes research more fun than ever.

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

by Lloyd » Sat Apr 26, 2025 2:59 am

369140

AI HELPS SOLVE EARTH'S FORMER WEAK GRAVITY?

Earlier today AI helped me understand John Kierein's push gravity model, which I wrote about at https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... sh-gravity.
Then I got curious if that could help explain how Earth's gravity could have been much weaker in the past. So one question led to another and another. Each question was answered by AI. It even had the manners to avoid pushing mainstream models, for the most part. What AI helped reveal is that Kierein's push gravity is caused by longwave EM radiation, i.e. radiowaves. Here is the Table of Contents, clickable, of that earlier post of today.
KIEREIN’S GRAVITY THEORY https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... ity-theory
WHY ONLY RADIO WAVES CAUSE GRAVITY https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... se-gravity
SIMPLER EXPLANATION https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... xplanation
GENTLE RADIO WAVES V. VIOLENT X- & G-RAYS https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... and-g-rays
HOW EM WAVES PENETRATE MATTER https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... and-g-rays
HOW EM WAVES ARE ELECTRICAL & MAGNETIC https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... d-magnetic
MILES MATHIS ON PHOTONS https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... on-photons
KEIREIN & MATHIS SIMILAR VIEWS https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... ilar-views
PARTICLES MADE OF PHOTONS https://electricastrophysics.substack.c ... of-photons
HIGHLIGHTS OF MATHIS FORUM https://ilki.substack.com/p/miles-mathis-science

Then this evening I completed this post.
EARTH'S FORMER WEAK GRAVITY at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ak-gravity.
The earlier post showed how gravity seems likely to work. Then for this next post, AI contended that several probable aspects of the Saturn Train could very possibly have interfered with background longwave radiation, thus causing a reduction of Earth's gravity. Namely, dense large diameter plasma and/or dust cloud, possibly containing water vapor, but not needed, and involving much more intense lightning, along with flaring, could well have caused a reduction of Earth's gravity, which then could explain the largest dinosaurs and plants.

And here is the Table of Contents for that.
KIEREIN’S GRAVITY THEORY https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ity-theory
HOW TO DECREASE A PLANET’S GRAVITY https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ts-gravity
GRAVITY SHADOW INSIDE OBJECTS https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... de-objects
SMALL OBJECTS TOWARD GRAVITY SHADOW https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ity-shadow
VAN FLANDERN TANGENT https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... rn-tangent
REDUCING EM RADIO WAVES https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... adio-waves
RED/BROWN DWARF EM RADIATION https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -radiation
PLASMA & DUST REDUCE RADIOWAVES https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... radiowaves
PLASMA/DUST CLOUD DENSITY REQUIREMENT https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... equirement
COMBINING DWARF EMISSION & PLASMA/DUST https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... plasmadust
CONCLUSION: SATURN TRIO COULD CAUSE LOWER EARTH GRAVITY https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... th-gravity

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