Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Brigit]

catastrophism subtopic: lunar capture

The first mention of "months", a word describing the time marked by the lunar cycle, is in Genesis 7, coinciding with the Deluge. Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky made some very bold statements about intense flaring of the star Saturn followed by a mass ejection of water, with a high salt or chlorine content. He said that this water was sufficient "to have filled the Atlantic Ocean," and that the chemical content of the rings of Saturn would be found one day to match the oceans of earth. (Thunderbolts Space News made two presentations on the deuterium found in Saturn's water ice which matched ocean water.) This was published in an interview while he was alive, and also in a posthumous work.

Now Lloyd reminded us that the most important and well-developed model of the Saturnian System has a column of water extending from a pole of Saturn.

However, I think that a second or maybe a distant third optional model for the structure of the Saturnian System is that the water was ejected at the equator, and that is why Saturn's rings are today found in its equatorial region. That is, the source of earth's oceans could very possibly be a Saturnian flare which bathed the earth in vast amounts of seawater, perhaps as it glanced a mist of a stream, just as we pass through solar wind streams or the trails of bodies in space which give us meteor showers each year.

The break up of the Saturnian System, and the possible capture of the moon, was apparently caused by close encounter with a body of sufficient mass to have disturbed the Brown Dwarf/gas giant and its satellites, and to have affected the placement of Saturn in the Solar System. Jupiter is not a far fetch, as it is still known today as the solar system's master slingshot.

But the moon is dry. Very interesting.

[Brigit]

catastrophism subsection: lunar capture; Mercury's atmosphere

On the other hand, Mercury exudes Oxygen and Hydrogen (read: water) in its tenuous atmosphere.




Hydrogen (H) ~ 3 × 109 ~ 250
Molecular hydrogen < 3 × 1015 < 1.4 × 107
Helium < 3 × 1011 ~ 6 × 103
Atomic oxygen < 3 × 1011 ~ 4 × 104
Molecular oxygen < 9 × 1014 < 2.5 × 107
Sodium ~ 2 × 1011 1.7–3.8 × 104
Potassium ~ 2 × 109 ~ 4000
Calcium ~ 1.1 × 108 ~ 3000
Magnesium ~ 4 × 1010 ~ 7.5 × 103
Argon ~ 1.3 × 109 < 6.6 × 106
Water

[JP Michael]

...Thermonuclear Explosions...

I find it interesting that Barry makes no mention of nuclear events. Now that does not mean it is excluded, but that a qualified physicist does not even consider it, either from blindsight or from evidence. I will send him an email and ascertain his thoughts on the matter.

I am pleased by the reasoned, moderate response of Mr. Barry Setterfield. For context, I will include the email I sent him.

-------------------------------------

Dear Mr. Barry Setterfield,

I am writing you this letter on account of your copious research in Biblical creationism, plasma physics, electrical discharge machining (EDM) and crater formation.

A discussion has emerged regarding Electric Universe theory of bolide collisions, namely, that electrically-induced shockwaves are the cause of events like the Tunguska. These result from an explosive charge differential between the mineral composition and charge of the interloping bolide and the planetary atmosphere. This is similar to certain theorising of the Comet Tempel-1 event when the Deep Impact lander was destroyed by an arc discharge from the comet and no impact crater remained. In the case of Tunguska, only the felled trees gave evidence to an incident; there was no obvious crater excavation into the sediment itself.

Others have even suggested that the physical impact of a bolide with the ground exceeding 10 m/s [sic - I meant to write 10 km/s] would result in the necessary temperature-pressures required to initiate a thermonuclear detonation of the bolide, or even that explosive charge differential has somehow initiated nuclear fusion in the materials of the bolide.

To quote:

"[Craters] are difficult to explain purely with Newtonian mechanics, which would predict oval-shaped craters, and we only find circular craters. But that doesn't prove that the craters were gouged out by EDM. I rather think that the impacts generate thermonuclear explosions. With velocities greater than 10 km/s, how could they not? The instantaneous pressure on impact should be off the charts. The circular craters are then created by the relativistic velocities of the nuclear ejecta, where the radial velocities are so much greater than the incident velocities that there is no elongation of the craters."

What do you make of such claims? Is it possible for a bolide to initiate a nuclear detonation assuming both high-intensity electrical energies and high instantaneous pressures at the moment of impact?

Yours in Christ,
Joshua Michael.

-------------------------------------

Questions from Joshua about craters.

Hi Joshua!

Your post raises several questions. First you introduce the matter of Tunguska and require further information about this.

Let me preface my remarks by noting three points. First, that every planet has an ionosphere or plasma-sphere/magnetosphere enveloping it. Jupiter's, for instance, ranges from 3-7 million miles across. These ionospheres then stretch out behind each planet, away from the sun, like a giant wind sock. Jupiter’s reaches beyond Saturn. In the inner Solar System, satellites and probes have detected “stringy things” from Venus’ plasmasphere reaching as far as Earth’s orbit. Second, the solar wind, a stream of positive particles (mainly protons) from the sun, accelerate away from the sun and keep going faster the farther out in the solar system they are. This indicates that the solar system has a potential gradient being progressively more negative the farther out you go. So all the plasmaspheres are at an increasingly negative electric potential going away from the Sun. Third, when there is a planetary alignment, such as Sun-Jupiter-Saturn, then Jupiter’s plasmasphere interacts with Saturn’s more negative plasmasphere, perhaps with an interplanetary lightning discharge. Today, these plasmaspheres are in dark current mode and so are invisible to our naked eye, but seen by instruments (IR and radio). But in the early days of our solar system currents were higher and voltages greater. Thus Jupiter’s visibly glowing plasmasphere was the largest object in the Solar System in the night sky – larger than the Sun by day but not nearly as bright. And so Jupiter was called the ‘King of the Gods’. When it lined up with Saturn, in the early days, the interplanetary lightning discharge between them would have been very visible. Similarly for other planets, which may be the origin of the idea of the Thunderbolts of the Gods, and the old fear that terrible things will happen when the planets align.

With that introduction let me get back on track about Tunguska. On about June 30th 1908, there was an unusual alignment of the Sun, Mercury, a comet (Encke, I think), Venus, and Earth. The key eyewitness said that they saw a blue-white streak coming in the sky for about 7 minutes before the explosion. A meteorite does not take that long to go through our atmosphere, and no meteoritic debris of any significance has been found associated with Tunguska. However, if it was an interplanetary lightning bolt similar to that experienced in the much earlier days of our Solar System, the 7 minute travel time would make sense. So, too would a lot of other features of the event. So, at the moment, my money is on an interplanetary lightning bolt as the cause of the Tunguska event.

You go on to talk about “electrically induced shock waves” associated with bolides or asteroid fragments coming through our atmosphere. There is an element of truth in this as meteorites and asteroids come from the asteroid belt. Other objects may come from the Kuiper belt. In both cases, these regions of the Solar System are at a more negative potential than the Earth’s environment. Therefore, as they come in to our atmosphere, some electrical discharge might occur, depending on the size of the object: larger bodies might be expected to have a greater charge. So relatively small bodies would probably have a lesser discharge. In these cases, the effects would not be described as “explosive”. However, in the case of very large objects, the story might be different. To put this in perspective, the Tunguska event released something like the energy equivalent of 500 kilotons of TNT. The Hiroshima bomb was only 15-20 kilotons of TNT. This Tunguska event, 25 times stronger than the first nuclear blast, is probably the full size of a blast of an interplanetary lightning bolt – it is top of the range in its class! All other astronomically induced electrical interactions with individual items of asteroidal or meteoritic debris would be significantly less. A whole swarm of such debris might be a different story, however. Such events occurred at the close of each geological Eras (which correspond with key Biblical events according to the research I have been involved with).

You then write that

“Others have even suggested that the physical impact of a bolide with the ground exceeding 10m/s would result in the necessary temperature-pressures required to initiate a thermonuclear detonation of the bolide, or even that explosive charge differential has somehow initiated nuclear fusion in the materials of the bolide.”

These claims do not bear close examination. While some impact events on earth have been so powerful that their energy release has been many times greater than a Hiroshima bomb, the explosion itself was definitely non-nuclear in origin. Even the interplanetary lightning bolt of Tunguska was not from nuclear fission or fusion. Indeed, the huge impacts which closed the geological Eras were not nuclear in origin, nor did they ignite a thermonuclear response. If they had, the relevant chemical elements would still be in evidence, but there are none. To think otherwise is misleading speculation without any evidence.

The final paragraph is a quote which reveals some lack of understanding of what is going on with the impact of asteroidal or meteoric debris, no matter what size. Let me walk you through such an event and clear up some misconceptions as we go.

Bolides, meteorites, asteroids or whatever, can impact the earth at speeds of up to 45 miles per second. The object can approach the ground from any angle. The statement was made that implied that any angle other than vertical produced elongated craters. This is false as will be shown in a moment. Elongated craters can only from low velocity impacts at shallow angles. To understand why, look at the data we have from impact experiments and actual impact events where nickel-iron fragments rich in iridium – only found in asteroids in those isotopes and concentrations - have permeated the whole structure and surroundings. This is obviously not just a lightning-type discharge but an impact of some cosmic body. As the body hits the ground at an angle its high speed causes it to bore its way into the ground. The object is moving so fast that the ground does not have time to get out of its way. The fastest the ground could possibly move to do that is the speed of sound in rock, and the maximum for that is given by the P waves in earthquakes as 5 miles per second. The object is usually traveling at speeds from 7 miles per second (minimum) to 45 miles per second (maximum). As a result, the impacting object bores a hole and pushes ahead of it an increasingly large plug of matter whose temperature and pressure increase as the impact energy is absorbed. The temperature of this plug of matter is over 1200 degrees Celsius (2200 degrees F) and the pressures ranging above 100,000 atmospheres (10 Giga Pascals - GPa). At the point where the impact energy is absorbed and the forward motion of the impactor is stopped, the plug of matter is at a temperature over 1700 C (3100 F) and pressure over 500,000 atmospheres (50 GPa). Since these conditions are in excess of the melting point of silicon dioxide, a major component of rock, it may be assumed that some of the plug of matter has vaporized. At that point a massive, non-nuclear, explosion occurs. While the trajectory of the impactor is at an angle to the ground, this has no effect on the resulting explosion. The resulting crater is radially symmetrical (circular) about the explosion point.

We know these facts from the experimental results of high energy impacts. Furthermore, these results coincide with what we find associated with actual impact craters from asteroids where there is a high concentration of nickel-iron and iridium. The high temperatures and pressures convert silicate rocks into unique forms of shocked quartz, namely coesite (formed at pressures above 2.5 GPa and temperatures above 700 degrees C) and stishovite (formed above 10 GPa pressure and above 1200 degrees C). There are other details which confirm this scenario. While high temperatures may be attainable by electric discharge and its machining, the extreme pressures are not attained by that process as evidenced by the Tunguska event where no coesite or stishovite was produced.

For a detailed comparison between craters formed by Electric Discharge Machining (EDM) and impact and a simple experiment which may be done, please go to our website here:

http://www.setterfield.org/crater_origi ... igins.html

On that URL you will also find a list of the characteristics which distinguish EDM craters from the impact variety. This work was initially praised by the Electric Universe principals in one of their discussion forums. Later they took the view that all craters had to be from EDM in their presentations, despite the experimental evidence. This is disappointing and misleading and has given rise to the sort of discussion you have been involved with.

I hope that answers your basic questions. If you have anything further, please get back to me.

Blessings,
Barry.

[Lloyd]

JP, that's a good informative dialog. Barry supports Charles' ideas quite a bit.

Barry said from your quote:

Bolides, meteorites, asteroids or whatever, can impact the earth at speeds of up to 45 miles per second. The object can approach the ground from any angle. The statement was made that implied that any angle other than vertical produced elongated craters. This is false as will be shown in a moment. Elongated craters can only from low velocity impacts at shallow angles.

Barry and maybe you misunderstood my quote of Charles. Charles said if craters formed by purely Newtonian forces, i.e. gravity etc, they would be elongated when objects impact at an angle other than vertical, as is seen when throwing a rock or something at an angle onto a flat volume of sand or other fine material. The Carolina Bays etc are elongated like that and appear to have formed by ice boulders that were ejected from the ice sheet in Michigan from a Younger Dryas impact. Most craters are circular because objects cause explosions upon impact. The explosion is much faster than the speed of the object impacting, so the crater is circular.

Barry agrees with what I said about strata turned upside-down on the rims of craters from impacts. See Figure XX in his Crater paper that you linked at http://www.setterfield.org/crater_origi ... igins.html . The caption says:

Figures XX: The explosive formation of craters by impact overturns the strata on the crater rim as shown above. The diagram below enlarges what happens. It can be seen that the rock layers on the rim are overturned and the rock sequence inverted a little distance from the crater.

Barry says craters are formed either by EDM or by impact. He has a table at the bottom of the paper that he says shows how to tell the types of craters apart. He also provided small-scale lab experiment photos of supposed EDM craters, but I haven't noticed any convincing info on that yet, though I'm open-minded that he may be right to some extent.

His research papers look possibly very helpful. I started reading one called Reviewing a Possible World-wide Event c. 2400 BC at http://www.setterfield.org/Worldwide_Event.html . It covers some info that Jonathan Gray reported on, which I discussed briefly in my thread, Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm. I'm eager to read the entire paper and look over his other papers, but it'll have to wait a little bit.

[JP Michael]

Barry's point about oblong craters is that it assumes no penetration of the bolide into its impact surface. The only way for this to occur is at lower velocities of presumably post-impact ejecta as you suppose for the Carolina bays.

I found the reasearch quite informative and a necessary correction for the all-EDM no-impact tendencies of some EU proponents. EDM is significant to cratering, and so is physical impact. A new study would need to categorize different craters and attempt to ascertain percentages.

[Lloyd]

Maybe this would help date the Amarna period:

http://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sear ... t%5B%5D=-1

Here are search results for Hazael:
http://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sear ... t%5B%5D=-1

[JP Michael]

I am postponing further responses on Amarna/Akhnaton in this topic in order to dedicate my time to my MTh/PhD candidature process. While the topics are of interest to me, they do not pertain to my current focus of introducing plasma cosmology to the compartmentalised world of Old Testament studies where it is sorely needed.

[perpetual motion]

b14643.de
Well I guess everybody's mind is pretty much made of concrete and rebar.
No response for this second opinion.
Hmmm!

[Lloyd]

774

perpetual motion, where's that 2nd opinion? It's more likely that folks don't have much time for discussion.

JP, what's your major and where?

[nick c]

b14643.de

774

Not to derail this thread. You can PM me with your answer, but I have noticed that several posts have some seemingly random numbers/letters/punctuation at the beginning of the post. Did either of you (Lloyd and perpetual motion) intentionally put that there and if so what is the reason? and if you did not, did these just appear after you pressed "submit"?
I am wondering if this is some sort of 3.0 glitch.

[JP Michael]

@nick c
Lloyd likes to note weekly thread/topic views for whatever reason. You will see numbers commencing quite a few of his posts. There is no glitch.

I also have no idea what perpetual motion is talking about. There has not been a post from perpetual in this thread since here.

@Lloyd
Australian College of Theology. I majored in NT Greek and OT Hebrew Textual Exegesis with a minor in Textual Criticism. I have some coursework to complete in my pathway program so I'm looking at more Hebrew language exegesis (Psalms & Samuel) and a research project next year in which I intend to introduce plasma mythology to the world of OT interpretation. In all the 'standard' OT scholarly materials I have scoured regarding myth and the OT (eg. John Day, Hermann Gunkel, K. William Whitney, Joel Soza) not once has plasma cosmology/mythology come up.

[nick c]

JP Michael,

Okay, no glitch for Lloyd. That explains it.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

There has not been a post from perpetual in this thread since here.

perpetual motion's last post is immediately above Lloyd's last post on this thread. That post too, has some seemingly random letters/numbers at the start of the post.
I wasn't sure if these were intentionally put there or not. Just curious.

[perpetual motion]

b14643.de
Sorry for that one.It was supposed to come up highlighted, but???
It's a cite from Europe is why the number stuff.
Just type in these numbers and it will come up.
Disregard the top half rocket stuff and read the lower half
that is about volcanic activity on this planet.

[nick c]

Okay, no problem. My concern was that the forum software was adding something unwanted to some posts.

[Lloyd]

Nick, I sometimes post the number of current views of the thread at the top of my posts, to get an idea of how many people read the thread.

JP, have you heard the theory that the Ark of the Covenant generated static electricity? Someone theorized probably over ten years ago that the Israelites considered God to be electricity, because the OT said God dwelled between the cherubim on the Ark. The person noted that the description of the ark and accessories suggested that it could generate static electricity like leyden jars do. If so, maybe the myth of Zeus throwing lightning bolts and other myths involving lightning etc were related.

What evidence of plasma cosmology do you find in the OT?