Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Lloyd]

153783

GIANT RIPPLES EVIDENCE OF THE GREAT FLOOD

How ripples form in sedentary rocks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsDQi5IxvZU

[GIANT RIPPLES.] Moving from left to right we find the western face of these ripples to be very steep and quite pronounce where as continuing East we see the eastern face to be gentle and gradual. This is the same pattern we see in ripples on the sandy beach. [These ripples seen from satellite are:] The Ruby Mountains of Nevada
https://www.spearfrontapologetics.com/b ... JbLHNpZEww
There are similar giant ripples in many areas of the world. Some in sandy deserts are formed by wind, but others which are hardened into rock likely formed via vast flooding.

WIDESPREAD YD IMPACT LOCATIONS

That webpage toward the top references science papers that have discussed findings of YD impact evidence in widespread locations, i.e. Syria (Middle East), Greenland, Patagonia in southern South America, South Africa, Mexico, etc. A platinum spike was found at several of these places. A map is shown where these locations are.

YOUNGER DRYAS MEGAFLOODS WORLDWIDE

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/megaflood/fantastic.html
_NOVA: You mentioned other great floods in the Pleistocene. Where else have multiple megafloods taken place?
_Baker: We had huge floods around many of the big ice sheets, such as the Laurentide, which blanketed much of arctic Canada east of the Rocky Mountains and southward to the Great Lakes. Huge megafloods were associated with its surrounding lakes, particularly Glacial Lake Agassiz, which covered much of central Canada centered around Winnipeg. That released floods both to the south through the Mississippi River system and also under the ice out through the straits that enter Hudson Bay.
_“One reason I study the Channeled Scabland is that it’s helpful in understanding Mars.”
_There were also massive megafloods in Asia. Some of them were associated with big ice sheets that blocked the rivers that currently flow north from Russia into the Arctic Ocean. Others were associated with mountain areas, such as the Altai Mountains, the Sayan Mountains, and some of the mountains around Lake Baikal. All of these are in southern Siberian Russia, along its borders with Kazakhstan and China and Mongolia. These mountain floods were comparable in magnitude, though perhaps not in volume, to the Missoula floods.

See also Catastrophe and Cartography - Ice Age Floods Visualized
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCBEBIBsJzM&t=53s

MARS FLOODS AT YOUNGER DRYAS?

_Above was mentioned Mars floods. They claim they occurred billions of years ago, but they more likely occurred during YD when the Saturn system apparently started to break up. The ancients saw Venus and Mars interacting probably for decades or centuries and Saturn novas and/or severing of the polar column may have caused floods on Mars and Earth both. The novas may have caused conflagrations and certain deposits like platinum, iridium etc.
_I just read that the desert in Chile was likely hit by a comet or something during the YD event, which melted a great deal of sand into glass. That's near Patagonia where some other YD evidence was found.

[Lloyd]

155156

EARTH HISTORY FOR NEWBIES: EARTH ORIGIN - SATURN THEORY

On my new FB group I tried to explain what the Saturn Theory supposes is the origin of the Earth and the Saturnian planets.
It's on Earth History at https://www.facebook.com/groups/3125304601057811
(I don't think you have to be registered on FB to read that, since it's a public group. Do you?)

THREAD INDEX

I updated the Index for this thread by subject at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... d-subjects
The subjects are:
AD:Catastrophism Promotion
PF:PreFlood
C:Cataclysms
RA:Radioactivity
FL:Flood
SR:Strata
TC:Technology
DA:Dating
IM:Impacts
IC:IceSheet
AR:Arctic
C.PS:PoleShift
MY:Myths
CR:Creationism
SD:ShockDynamics
GC:GrandCanyon
SL:SeaLevels
ST:SaturnTheory
YD:YoungerDryas
BR:BronzeAge

That needs to be improved a lot, but not now.

[Lloyd]

155350

MEGALITHIC BUILDING METHODS BEFORE PANGAEA BREAKUP

I suspected that some of the ancient megalithic building methods seen in several places around the world might have been used before the Pangaea breakup and Flood. If so, those places would have been much closer together at that time, before the continents formed and moved far apart.

Tiahuanaco near the border of Bolivia and Peru seems very likely to have been built before the Andes Mountains formed, because the nearby Lake Titicaca has salty water in which there are seahorses and other saltwater plants and animals and there are said to be strand lines on the Andes where former sea levels are indicated. Also, Tiahuanaco is said to have been buried under about 6 feet of silt when it was first rediscovered and the remains of many of the likely inhabitants were found in a mass grave, apparently buried by flood sediments. Lake Titicaca tilted according to strand lines in that area, so any structures built before the mountains uplifted should probably also be tilted. I don't know if the buildings in Tiahuanaco are tilted or not. There are also some buildings or manmade structures submerged in Lake Titicaca. So they should also be checked to see if they're tilted or not.

Since all mountains likely formed about 2,300 BC during the breakup of the supercontinent, Pangaea, it's likely that any tilted structures were built before that time. I think it was Ralph Bellamy who provided much of the info about Tiahuanaco and I think he said there's evidence that the people of Tiahuanaco were related to the Egyptians and traded with them. That would have been when Tiahuanaco was a seaport city, before Pangaea broke up and the Andes Mountains uplifted. Egypt was in the center of Pangaea and Tiahuanaco was on the western edge of the supercontinent. Without the Atlantic Ocean between them, they would have been 2,000 to 3,000 miles closer together and could have been reached overland. If Egypt was a port city on the former Tethys Sea, they could also have reached each other by sea. Mainstream images of Pangaea show that Egypt would have been on the Tethys sea coast, but Mike Fischer's video at https://youtu.be/_IIE8UnvPUg shows Egypt being far inland. However, there may still have been inland seas that could have connected the two cities.

GREAT PYRAMID WAS FLOODED BY SEAWATER

There's evidence that the Flood caused by the Pangaea breakup covered at least lower Egypt as the pyramids show evidence of being submerged in water. This paper, The Great Pyramid of Giza, by John M Jensen, Jr, at https://www.academia.edu/10380809/800_I ... _Years_Ago says as follows.

The Great Pyramid of Giza was not constructed by the dynastic Egyptians as evidenced by sediments found surrounding the base of the monument, as well as salt incrustations found within its interior, and watermarks on the stones halfway up its sides. Many seashells and fossils have been found around the base of the pyramid in some of the silt sediments rising to fourteen feet. Some of those sediments have been radiocarbon-dated to be nearly twelve thousand years old. Logically, only great quantities of continuous major sea flooding would produce this sediment. ... Legends and records tell of watermarks that were clearly visible on the limestone casing stones of the Great Pyramid before those stones were removed by the Arabs. These watermarks were halfway up the sides of the pyramid, or about 450 feet above present sea level. It is important to keep in mine that sea levels were 361 [feet] lower 13,000 years ago than they are today, making the inundation ... 810 [feet] in ocean rise, if the inundation happened about 12,800 years ago. Further, when the Great Pyramid was first opened, incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. While much of this salt is known to be natural exudation from the stones of the pyramid, chemical analysis has shown that some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. These salt incrustations, found at a height corresponding to the water level marks left on the exterior, are further evidence that at some time in the distant past the pyramid was submerged halfway up its height. [Paragraph] In my opinion, there are 3 different salt lines. I have no idea if they were all of one piece. This is, the water rose to its highest point about 254 [feet] up the side of the Great Pyramid, and remained at that level for some short period of time, because the salt line residue was relatively thin. Then, following that level stasis, the waters receded to the level of the Queen's Chamber, and remained there for a long enough period of time, so that the interior salt line grew much thicker. Then the water fell to the lagoon level of 14 to 18 [feet] as demonstrated by the sediment around its base. Most of the area, as we will document later shows what appears to be a shallow lagoon in terms of stone pitting and [ocean wave] turbulence. ...
_At the Sphinx and the Sphinx Temple, the first twenty courses of the Great Pyramid and the boat pits, which are at lower levels, the deeper water saturation has caused extensive erosion where seawater has absorbed into the stone blocks and wall linings. ... The largest of the tufoni pitting on the top of the blocks reach this size only after millenniums of salt water saturation. A loss of limestone surface structure due to tufoni pitting of 25 centimeters can be calculated in many hundreds of years. [An Echinoid fossil was found on the Sphinx Temple.] What makes this particular exoskeleton so important is that we can clearly see the minute detail and pristine conditions of this exoskeleton’s structure, which indicates this particular Echinoid must have petrified in relatively recent times, and is not an artefact of the original sandstone block [of the Sphinx Temple]. [This paper goes into some more detail about the evidence that the Giza plateau was flooded for some time.]

[THE GREAT PYRAMID AS AN ELECTRICAL GENERATOR? from the same paper]
_In researching the Electrostatic Earth, (the last chapter in this book) and after finally being able to define the nature of the ‘G’ force as being an Electrostatic Field Density, I realized quite abruptly that the GP [Great Pyramid] was a machine that could extract that Electrostatic Field from the ambient atmosphere, functioning to a degree something like a lightning rod. One of the specific overall relationships of the design is a real time connection as an antenna sink to the ambient electro-static atmosphere.
[I've posted quite some time ago info from another website suggesting that ancient megaliths were used as lightning rods, due to the severe electrical storms that occurred in ancient times. I suspect that was prior to the Pangaea breakup, when the atmosphere was likely much denser. Huge comets and asteroids during the Pangaea breakup and Younger Dryas event/s likely caused much of the loss of atmosphere.]

POLYGONAL MASONRY

I thought polygonal masonry might have been one of the prePangaea breakup building methods, but the following website quote and a recent Youtube video by Ancient Architects suggest that the Incas and other less ancient peoples could have accomplished such masonry without advanced tools. I'm not convinced yet, but I'm open to the possibility that they're right. However, the Great Pyramid and Tiahuanaco and probably other structures around the world definitely seem to be prePangaea breakup.

The mystery of ancient polygonal masonry
https://mywordworld.ru/en/russkaya-lite ... kryta-tai/
_The author says polygonal masonry was constructed in about the same way that kids build snow forts. "You put the biggest clods down, and put smaller ones on them, which were easier to lift. And so that the upper ones do not fall, you rub them a little against each other, moving back and forth." ... "Now let's take a closer look at the pictures of ancient stone buildings.... So, the first large block of stone is placed down, to which, successively, stone by stone, all other blocks were hewn in turn from bottom to top. ... it was necessary to make a large 'wooden swing' over the wall under construction ... which ... moved along the wall (as today a tower crane moves along the wall of a [building] under construction). ... A block of stone, fixed and suspended from the mounting ledges, was slowly lowered by swinging on the ... 'swings'."
_He said this method of polygonal masonry was used in South America, Egypt, Greece, Baalbek, the Mediterranean countries and Asia. "They can be seen in Ollantaytambo, Tiwanaku, Machu Picchu and, of course, Cusco" in Peru, South America. By the way, some walls contain outlines of animals. I looked at images of the following.
Delphi, Greece (not tight)
Amelia, Italy (not tight)
Machu Picchu, Peru (tight)
Sacsayhuaman, Peru (tight)
Easter Island, west of Peru
_I think Japan also has polygonal masonry and probably some other places. I don't have time to check right now for others.

[Lloyd]

EGYPT & TIAHUANACO ON PANGAEA
https://i.ibb.co/vkFLnpH/CR-Pangaea.png

In my previous post above a couple hours ago I said the Giza Plateau and Tiahuanaco may have been port cities on the supercontinent Pangaea. The map at this link shows Pangaea with its shallow seas and I added 2 arrows to indicate about where Giza and Tiahuanaco would have been. Looks like I was right, that both would have been on the coasts, and shallow seas would have allowed access to both via sea travel. Overland travel would have been feasible too, as South America and Africa were connected. The shallow seas of north Africa and the Gulf of Mexico area apparently separated North America and Eurasia (northern Pangaea) from southern Pangaea.

[Lloyd]

157588

ANCIENT STRUCTURES WITH EVIDENCE OF CATACLYSMS

In my previous posts I showed that the Giza plateau in Egypt and Tiahuanaco in Peru show evidence of inundation by major sea water flooding for an extended period likely at the time of the Younger Dryas event, which I think dates to about 4,300 BP. Below I provide some related info with my comments in brackets.

Conservation of Cuneiform Tablets
https://www.penn.museum/sites/expeditio ... r-rebaked/
_Expedition [magazine] has been published by the Penn Museum since 1958. [Penn = Pennsylvania]
_The Museum’s collection consists of approximately 25,000 clay tablets, the majority of which were excavated in the late 19th and early 20th centuries at the Sumerian cities of Nippur and Ur. [Ur was near the Persian Gulf, Nippur farther north, as seen on this map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... r_(en).svg ]
_The range of the collection is truly astounding. It covers a span of over 3000 years — the oldest tablet being an as yet undeciphered text from the Jemdet Nasr period (approximately 2900 B.C.) [If correct, that would put it before the YD Flood, maybe shortly after the Great Flood].
_More advanced [ancient Akkadian] students learned how to write dictionaries and grammars [on some of the clay tablets] in order to learn Sumerian, since it was no longer the spoken language of the people and had been replaced by the Semitic language, Akkadian. These dictionaries and grammars, the first in man’s recorded history, have proved invaluable in reconstructing and understanding the Sumerian language.
_[Some of the tablets contain the] Epic of Gilgamesh [and some] the famous Laws of Hammurapi [and some] an even older law code dating to the reign of King Lipit-Ishtar (1934-1924 B.C.).
_[There's an image of] A tablet with a heavy salt incrustation on the lower left. These crystals formed after excavation.
_Since their excavation and acquisition, many of the tablets in the collection have begun to deteriorate physically and in the summer of 1974 ... the University Museum was able to build facilities [to stop deterioration].
_Although preserved under the Mesopotamian soil for millennia, once unearthed and exposed to the air, a slow but inexorable process of deterioration begins. The problem is twofold. Firstly, the tablets are usually only sun-dried and, while they appear deceptively hard, in reality even the slightest contact with water causes them to dissolve. The high salinity of the clay from which the tablets were made, and the climatic conditions in which they are now kept, create a second problem. Salt crystals form throughout the tablet and rise to the surface. The evaporation of water from the interior of the tablets transports salts to the surface and deposits them there where they crystallize and eventually cover and obliterate the cuneiform signs. If this is allowed to continue, the entire tablet will crumble. Baking the tablets in a kiln at high temperatures attacks both problems. It renders the tablet virtually indestructible, while breaking down some of the salts. Soaking the tablet then removes the remaining salts not disposed of by baking.
_[A temperature of] 825°C [is needed] to break down the carbonates, one of the more harmful salts in the tablets. [My guess is that the YD Flood is what deposited most of the salt, although I don't know if that would be the source of carbonates].
_even after immersion in water, the soot still clings to the surface and has to be removed after the tablet is repaired. [The soot might also have come from the YD event, i.e. via the widespread conflagration.]
_The fingerprints of the scribe who formed the tablet from wet clay are often discernible. Many economic texts contain the hem prints and fingernail impressions of the men involved in the transaction as well as of the witnesses to the proceedings.

Graffiti in the Temples of Ancient Egypt
https://www.alanfildes.com/graffiti2.php
_The Luxor Temple, sadly feeling its age these days for whatever reason, salt incrustation [was] brought on by the water table rising in modern times or plain over exposure to tourism.... [Again, I suspect that the salt derived from the YD Flood that apparently flooded the nearby Great Pyramid.]

Original Painting Techniques and Materials Used in the Tomb of Nefertari
https://www.getty.edu/conservation/publ ... rnity2.pdf
_Nefertari Died ca. 1255 BC [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nefertari ].
_It is well known ... that the tomb of Nefertari was excavated from fractured limestone interspersed with sodium chloride deposits, and that this poor-quality interior required plastering to create a suitable surface for the high relief work and painted decoration. While disruption from salt activity, most probably present quite early in the tomb's history, had disastrous consequences for the painted plaster, the initial cutting and excavation of the tomb complex must have proceeded without too much difficulty. [I wonder if the tomb complex existed at the time of the YD event. If not, the fractured limestone could have been penetrated by sea water during the YD.]

Salt-weathering, conservation techniques and strategies to protect the rock cut façades in Petra/Jordan
https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... etraJordan
_The ancient stone city of Petra [has] about 4000 individual monuments cut from rock....
_The existence of most of the 2000-year old sandstone monuments of Petra is in danger due to progressive weathering....
_Most of the tomb façades of Petra were chiseled from the rock of the brown sandstone of the Middle Cambrian of the Umm Ishrin formation.
_Especially in areas with arid or semi-arid climatic zones like Petra an increasing amount of salts accu-mulates. Therefore, weathering due to salts plays a crucial rule.
_The typical development of alveolar and tafoni is obvious and completely covers the rocks. During the past centuries, it has also spread to the monuments.
_The largest amount of salt settles in zones in which the drying process is slow and therefore causes damage.
_Those areas that are washed up periodically and freed of the salt deposits are in comparably good condition.
_The rock salt of Petra primarily consists of halite (NaCl).
_In fact, there is a salt mixture.
_The main salts causing structural damage were halite (NaCl), some calcium sulfate (CaSO4) and traces of phosphate (PO4).
_About 80% of the weathering phenomena can be traced back to salt weathering. [Again, I suspect that the salt came from YD Flood sea water.]

See this video: Petra: More Ancient than Assumed?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwvPulzda00&t=40s

Evidence Of Massive Ancient Cataclysm At Megalithic Sites In Peru
https://hiddenincatours.com/evidence-ma ... ites-peru/
_the megalithic works of the Cusco area of Peru were not done by the Inca, but a far older civilization. We can now state with some evidence that these accomplishments were created 12,000 or more years ago, and have written a book about that. They were all damaged or destroyed by a massive cataclysm some 11,700 years in the past. [The dating is wrong though.]

The Cataclysm of Easter Island - The Megalithic Wall of Vinapu
https://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient ... rt-5-00646
_Vinapu consists of a partially-destroyed wall with megalithic construction that is basically unique to the island, but not unique in the world. The main wall consists of enormous slabs very skillfully laid. I stood in front of the wall and was genuinely amazed at the construction which was not just similar, but identical to that at Cuzco, Machu Picchu, Sacsayhuaman and Ollantaytambo in the high Andes of Peru.
_It is often said that the construction at Vinapu is identical to that of Tiwanaku, although Tiwanaku lacks the pillowed walls, which are mainly found around Cuzco. However, pillowed or rounded walls can be found at the ruins of Sillustani and Cutimbo, both on mesas—flat topped mountains—near Lake Titicaca, which are usually said to be of Tiwanaku origin.
_I surmised that Vinapu was part of the original purpose of Easter Island, along with the gigantic statues in Rano Raraku and the ceremonial site there. The other moais and platforms were built later, possibly in an effort to call back the ancients who had abandoned the island, or just to protect the island as legend said.
_Rongo Rongo writing [on Easter Island] has been shown to be identical to Indus Valley writing found at the ancient Rama Empire cities of Mohenjo Daro, Harappa, and Lothal. The ancient city of Dwarka — where Krishna is said to be from — is underwater off the coast of Gujarat.
_[It seems there was] a world-wide network ... stretching from ancient India to the massive platform of Baalbek in Lebanon (here are found the largest cut blocks of stone in the world, estimated to weigh 1000 tons or more) to Abydos in Egypt to Sacsayhuaman in Peru, to ... Easter Island! The wall even faces [toward?] Peru. [So all of those cities likely existed since before the YD Flood.]

Aftershock: The Ancient Cataclysm That Erased Human History (Paperback)
https://www.flyingpigbooks.com/book/9781534907102
_There is mounting scientific evidence that our planet was struck by a devastating cataclysm about 12,000 years ago. Global sea levels, as the result of rapidly melting polar ice rose by more than 300 feet in a very short period of time, causing the planet to become unstable.In Egypt, Peru, Bolivia, Lebanon and other locations we see the existence of ancient damaged but very sophisticated megalithic stone structures which we would be hard pressed to re-create today.... [Except wrong dating again.]

The Unknown Era of the Megalith
https://www.academia.edu/25992421/The_U ... e_Megalith
_Iridium sites around the Mediterranean Sea (Italy, Spain, Tunisia and Morocco) indicate a strong possibility (probability) of one or more asteroids falling within the Mediterranean iridium circle, that is the space in the Mediterranean Sea. [A world map of iridium sites is shown.]

Cosmic and Cometary Induced Cataclysms, and the Megalithic Response
https://www.knowth.com/sacred-geography-1.htm
_To read more about the cosmic object pass-by and the ensuing crustal displacement of 9500 BC, refer to Cataclysm by D.S. Allan & J.B. Delair, The Atlantis Blueprint by Colin Wilson and Rand Flem-Ath, and Catastrophobia by Barbara Hand Clow.
_Approximately 2000 years later, in roughly 7640 BC, a cometary object sped towards the earth. This time, however, rather than passing by the earth as the cosmic object of 9500 BC had done, the cometary object actually entered the atmosphere, broke into seven pieces, and impacted the earth at known locations on the planet's oceans. The following map shows the general location of each of the seven impacts. [Dating is still wrong.]

Evidence Of An Ancient Cataclysm? Megalithic Huaytara In Peru
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEKb4EPfF54

Evidence of an Ancient Cataclysm at the Lesser Known Ancient Site 'Little Petra'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXAUmjoqVkk&t=916s

Evidence Of Ancient Cataclysms At Megalithic Sites Around The World
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzdAT9c95DA&t=638s

[Lloyd]

157992

TOWER OF BABEL, SATURN'S POLAR COLUMN

_Are these findings interesting? If we persist, maybe we'll figure out when the Saturn system broke up. Lately, I figured that the Tower of Babel event might be the time that Saturn departed from the Saturn system, because the Tower of Babel was likely symbolic of the Polar Column that likely existed as a visual connection between polar Saturn and Earth, with Venus and Mars in between. (I suppose that's what this article was about, The Cosmic String of Pearls -- From: Aeon Volume VI, Number 4 Marinus Anthony van der Sluijs, i.e. the string having been the polar column and the pearls being the planets, Mars, Venus and Saturn. The article mentions some other ancient myths that seem to refer to the same event. Jack and the Beanstalk also seems to refer to it). _This paper, "Dating the Tower of Babel events", at https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j31 ... _80-87.pdf , shows a Biblical time graph of the Tower of Babel event at 300-400 years after the Great Flood.
_This paper, "Two date range options for Noah's Flood", at https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j31 ... 20-127.pdf , says: "Finally, two bc date estimates for the Flood, include a Masoretic placement between 2518 and 2532 bc, and a Septuagint placement circa 3168 bc.
_I previously decided that the Masoretic and Septuagint were likely both right, the Great Flood dating to ca. 3100 BC and the Younger Dryas Flood of Noah dating to ca. 2500 BC, or more likely 2800 BC and 2300 BC. 350 years after 2800 is 2450 BC, so it seems that the Tower of Babel event (i.e. end of the Polar Column) may have occurred at the time of the Younger Dryas event (2500-2300 BC).
_In the Jack and the Beanstalk fairytale I think Jack represented Mars and the giant was Saturn. I think Mars appeared to sever the polar column. The goose may have meant Venus. I don't know what would have been the golden egg, unless that was also Saturn, or maybe a gold-looking object or asteroid from Venus.

[Lloyd]

160133

HIGHLIGHTS OF 2001 SATURN THEORY ARTICLE

The Paleo-Saturnian System [Journals] [Aeon]
_From: Aeon VI:1 (Feb 2001)
__Michael Bar-Ron, from Jerusalem, Israel [comments on] Dwardu Cardona's autobiographical essay, [11] as well as other papers on the subject
[ETHIOPIA WORLD MOUNTAIN]
__Lynn Rose identified the Afar Triangle of Ethiopia (a highland region - ground-zero of a three-plate split) as a candidate for the mythic World Mountain. [13]
[AGE OF DARKNESS]
__(We do not ... come across any Saturn myths from Mesoamerica, while Amazonian traditions speak of a perpetual day rather than a perpetual night.)
[ETHIOPIA EDEN]
__In the Book of Genesis it is stated [that] ... man dwelled in Eden from the earliest times.
__A tradition has it that Moses was a king in Ethiopia during his exile from Egypt.
__Yemenite Jewish elders believe that early Hebrews lived in Ethiopia at the time of the theophany at Har Sinai (the giving of the Law), but felt no urge to rejoin the people on their conquest of Canaan.
__Amos [wrote that] YHWH ... criticized the Hebrews [saying]: "Are not you and the Cushites [[Ethiopians]] all the same to me, sons of Israel?" [17]
__And, according to Ethiopian Jewish tradition, a group of Israelites - mostly priests - took the Ark of the Covenant with them to Ethiopia
__the Torah considers Israel as the center of the world.
__And yet, as the above illustrates, Jewish tradition also bestows on Ethiopia something of a unique status.
[ATMOSPHERIC TIDES]
__If the atmosphere was concentrated in one hemisphere [under the pull of Saturn above the North Pole], would the other hemisphere have been left with enough atmosphere to sustain and protect plant and animal life?
[COLD CLIMATE MEGAFAUNA]
__How ... were the mammoths of Earth's northern regions - thousands of years old - covered with permafrost within hours of their death?
__Had these beasts been exposed to the elements for even a few days, they would have been subject to decay and scavenging.
__Also, had these animals lived in a sunny Golden Age, why the need for all that woolly hair?
__The megafauna of the Upper Pleistocene were clearly suited to a cold tundra environment.
__Now isn't it interesting that Adam (before Qayin) was not given animals to eat, but was restricted to a vegetarian diet?
__Evidence indicates that humans devastated the megafauna.
__Now if, because of Saturn's northern placement, the climate in the north was comparable to Africa, I can't see how that would have been the case.
[AGE OF DARKNESS]
__A World Without Sunlight: Had there been no sunlight for thousands of years, how did photosynthesizing forests thrive?
__all those species of trees would have had to suddenly mutate into perfect photosynthesizers [when the Golden Age ended]
[EARTH HABITABLE ZONE]
__Our Sun and its planets linger between two spiral arms of the galaxy, a stable position, since it happens to be a rare star with a galactic co-rotational radius. __If we were to be swept into one of these galactic arms, our Solar System would be in mayhem; I don't know how our spaceship [Earth] would survive.
__shortly after they were formed, Earth, Venus, and Mars all had large amounts of surface water.
__Earth's greenhouse milieu is so perfectly balanced that global temperatures remain high enough to keep the oceans from freezing, and cool enough to keep them from evaporating away.
__how crucial it was that Alvarez's meteor happened to be just the right size, hitting at just the right speed, etc., for it to eliminate 90 percent of Earth's fauna while leaving the mammals intact without a trace of the nasty dinosaurs who had kept us scurrying on the night-time forest floor for eons.
__What the Saturn theory seems to entail is our little Earth flipping upside down, changing suns, losing half its atmosphere, getting it back in a deluge, being plunged into thousands of years of darkness
[HUMAN ORIGINS]
_Dwardu Cardona responds
__Bar-Ron is incorrect when he states that I have "cited a tradition that speaks of mankind having originated in Earth's north polar region."
__What I did cite in the paper referred to by him is William Warren's conviction that "the cradle of civilization was to be found in the north polar regions." [19]
__The cradle of civilization, however, must not be confused with the origin of mankind, concerning which neither Warren nor I had anything to say.
__As I myself wrote, "while it is unlikely that mankind originated in the north, it could have congregated there during the Golden Age." [20]
__But even then, for reasons too complicated to go into here, this congregation must not be thought of as having occupied the north polar region but, rather, a peripheral area surrounding that region [on lands surrounding the Arctic Ocean].
[ETHIOPIA WORLD MOUNTAIN]
__In defense of his own Saturnian scenario, [21] Lynn Rose presented the mythic World Mountain as an actual uplift of land - a lithospheric bulge. [22]
__But, as Roger Ashton's calculations indicated, any such lithospheric bulge, even had it existed, would not have been prominent enough to be visible as a towering massif from any latitude. [23]
__the mythic World Mountain was described as having possessed a serpentine form, a whirling motion, and the capability of sucking material from Earth's surface. [24]
__It is thus obvious that, whatever it was, the World Mountain, which was the same as the Polar Column or Axis Mundi, could not have been a physical uplift of land.
__[The] Axis could have been: (1) a Rankine vortex complete with bolus flow as per Frederic Jueneman ... [25]
__an actual lithospheric bulge [not a mountain] would have been raised by Saturn's proximity, and this would have been aided by the added adjacency of Venus and Mars in the linear configuration.
__And, to be sure, the remnant of such a bulge remains to this day.
__It is, however, to be found at Earth's north polar region - testifying to a force that was once located in Earth's north celestial pole, [26]
___[COMMENT: The idea of the Saturn World Mountain being formerly located in Ethiopia is what attracted me to this article, because it's similar to my recent speculation that the polar column was located over the Great Pyramid of Egypt, and Ethiopia is just south of Egypt. I found that the Great Pyramid was built before the Younger Dryas Flood, so it could have been built at Giza because of Saturn having been located above it. If Saturn were above the North Pole, many of the people on the supercontinent, Pangaea, might not have been able to see much of the Saturn configuration.]
___Cardona, like most EU proponents it seems, accepted much of current geological assumptions about the great age of the Earth, which I've shown are surely wrong. The continent of Pangaea cannot have been very old, but the Earth under the continents could be much older. The continents of Eurasia and North America were farther south when they were part of Pangaea. Pangaea likely broke up about the time that the Saturn System broke up, so the northern forests and the megafauna were not in the Arctic circle until just after Saturn departed. There does seem to be a polar bulge at the North Pole and the Arctic Ocean is within the bulge as a depression. So the bulge could have been pulled up by Saturn and the Ocean basin could have been carved out by the polar column tornado, but that needs more analysis. For one thing, there should be a bulge on the opposite side of the Earth too, since tides work that way, but I haven't heard of such a bulge. By the way, Ethiopia is near where the asteroid hit Pangaea and broke it apart. It could be that Saturn was initially above the North Pole for a long time, which allowed the polar bulge to form, but that impacts during the Great Flood, caused the pole to shift to Egypt, where it remained for only about 500 years, till the Younger Dryas Flood occurred.]
[AGE OF DARKNESS]
__That traditions of the age of darkness are to be found not only in the eastern hemisphere but also in the western and northern hemispheres, I have already documented elsewhere by citing the beliefs held by the Indians of British Columbia and other North American Indians. [27]
__Myths pertaining to Saturn from Mesoamerica are also known.
__And there, too, the age of darkness is spoken of.
__The Aztec Quetzalcoatl, the same as the Mayan Kukulkan, a deity identifiable as a personification of Saturn, [28] was said to have existed in an era of primordial night. [29]
__So, likewise, with the traditions of Central and South America. [30]
__On the other hand, it is true that some myths specify a perpetual day at the beginning of time rather than a perpetual night.
__As paraphrased by Douglas Gifford, this Amazonian myth states that "at the beginning of all time, there was no such thing as night" - "it was always day."
__do [such] myths really contradict those which tell of an endless night?
[GOLDEN AGE GENERATIONS UNDER CONSTANT LIGHT]
__Consider: In the Saturnian events I have reconstructed, the age of darkness finally came to an end with the light shed by Saturn's flare-up. [33]
__Following that, Earth and its inhabitants were flooded by continuous light for generations.
__the myth of the Makiritare [of Columbia] ... specifies that the time when there was "just light" was also a time when evil did not exist, when there was no war, when no one worked, when no one had to look for food, when food was always there [34] - in other words, the Golden Age, an era during which the age of darkness had come to an end to be replaced with one of constant light.
__the coming of night is referred to in the context of a day-night cycle, and not in that of (the previous) perpetual night-like darkness.
__As I explain elsewhere, night, as we know it, did not descend upon the world until the break-up of the Saturnian configuration. [36]
___[COMMENT: I didn't know that Cardona claimed that there was no night during the Golden Age.]
[CELESTIAL EDEN]
__[The biblical claim] that "... man dwelled in Eden from the earliest times" betrays a certain naïveté.
__Yahweh has long been identified as a personification of the planetary god Saturn by both ancients and moderns alike. [37]
__Secondly, the belief that the Hebrew Paradise - i.e. Gan Eden - was situated in the north was, and is, well known. [38]
__that the original paradise was a celestial apparition, rather than a terrestrial "garden," is indicated by the Sanskrit name Saurikah which translates as Saturn, Heaven, and Paradise. [41]
__The name Paradise ... translates as "enclosure" ... [42] ... a golden ring. [45]
__This is the same as the Egyptian duat within which Ra/Kronos/Saturn [46] was said to have resided, described as having been a ring, [47] ... in the sky, [48] and actually depicted as a star surrounded by a ring. [49]
[ADAM & EVE, MARS & VENUS]
__Thus, having been placed in this celestial Gan Eden, Adam and Eve could not have been creatures of flesh and blood.
__Jewish legends ... said that the clothes of the first "human couple," that is Adam and Eve, were "garments of light," [50] and/or that the primordial light, which refers to Saturn's flare-up, [51] was "identified with the splendor of Adam's countenance." [52]
__In fact, various traditions about Adam depict him as a celestial entity, a heaven man. [53]
__the god ... El ... as Saturn was well known to the ancients. [56]
__One of the epithets of El was il ab adm, [57] that is "El Ab Adam," which translates as "El Father of Adam."
__the name Adam itself ... derives from a root meaning "red" or "ruddy." [58]
__it is deities personifying the planet Mars that are usually described as having been of a ruddy, or red, complexion.
__Because of the above, and other data, Adam, "the Red One," may yet turn out to have been an embodiment of Mars (although, to be sure, a dual identity is not ruled out).
__this accounts for the widespread belief among the ancients, including Plato, as well as modern "primitive" tribes, that the first men were circular or spherical in shape [like planets]. [59]
__Meanwhile, that Eve - in Hebrew Haw-wa/Havvah - stood for the planet Venus there seems to be little doubt.
__among the various etymologies of the word Eve ... there is one, according to which it means serpent'." [60]
__various Venerian goddesses ... were also described as having had the form of a serpent - such as Inanna and Ishtar - a reference to the former cometary form of the planet. [61]
[RIVERS OF EDEN]
__the rivers of Eden, like the paradisiacal rivers of other ancient nations, embody a singular characteristic which becomes an impossibility in terms of terrestrial waterways - and that is their dispersion from a single source toward four different directions. [70]
__Originally, Talbott had interpreted these quadrifurcate rivers as four primary paths of light, or rays, radiating out from the Saturnian sun. [72]
__He later specified these effulgent rays as having been emitted by the planet Venus which, as seen from Earth, appeared plumb in the center of the Saturnian orb. [73]
__Thus, rather than radiating out from the Saturnian sun, these cruciform streamers would have been seen to radiate across the face of the Saturnian orb.
__when the Saturnian configuration fell apart, it was said that the North Star took its place [75] and, in many instances throughout the ancient world, the North Star continued to be directly associated with the planet Saturn. [76]
[PANGAEA]
__there is a possibility that Ethiopia and the Afar Triangle had also once faced proto-Saturn, and that the concentration of continents known as Pangaea had once been located at one of Earth's polar regions.
__But this would have had to have been during an era prior to the advent of man, so that there is no possibility that mankind could have retained a memory of such a geographical arrangement.
[ATMOSPHERIC TIDES]
__Atmospheric tides are raised at present through the attractive influence of the Sun and Moon.
__And, very much like oceanic tides, the atmosphere is pulled in both the direction of the attracting body (or bodies) and away from it (or them) at the antipodes. [MEGAFAUNA & ICE AGE][/color]
__that the mammoth (at least mammutus primigenius) was well adapted to cold is not contested by the Saturn thesis.
__One must keep in mind that these beasts, together with other woolly denizens of the Upper Pleistocene, were "left-overs" from the Ice Age.
__Again, the Saturn thesis does not preclude the occurrence of ice ages.
__But keep in mind that, during periods (perhaps all periods) of the Holocene (if not also other periods), the area that should have been the most glaciated, that is the entire Arctic basin, was completely free of ice, [79] again indicative of a north celestial source of heat which, in our theory, can be accounted for by the immobile northern presence of the Saturnian sun.
[SATURN SYSTEM DURATION]
__Wallace Thornhill has opted for a much shorter period of time during which the Saturnian configuration could have sustained itself [80] - a period that would discount a north polar placement of Saturn during the Holocene and earlier periods.
__my own research, however, indicates that the polar emplacement of Saturn predated the advent of man by a very long period
[FORMERLY WARM ARCTIC]
__it has been "admitted by all scientific authorities that at one time the regions within the Arctic Circle enjoyed a tropical or nearly tropical climate." [81]
__The Canadian island of Axel Heiberg, in Nunavut, well above the Arctic Circle, well beyond the present tree line, as well as areas in Siberia, are littered with the sub-tropical remains of ancient forests.
__As James Basinger noted, these vestiges point to "a lengthy warm spell during the Eocene epoch ... when mean annual polar temperatures ranged from seven to 15-deg C [44-59o F]." [82]
___[COMMENT: That temperature range doesn't seem all that warm to me and it sounds about right for the northern parts of Pangaea, which was likely centered near the equator, as per NewGeology.US. The northern shore of Pangaea would then have been around 40 or 50 degrees North Latitude.]
[SATURN RED LIGHT PHOTOSYNTHESIS]
__The problem that has been facing paleobotanists is how such forests, to say nothing of the sub-tropical fauna that inhabited them, could have thrived in a latitude which at present would have forced them to "sleep" through the long polar night.
__how, then, asks Bar-Ron, could forests have photosynthesized for thousands of years during the age of darkness had there been no sunlight to sustain them?
__Well, for one thing, one must keep in mind that the age of darkness was not totally dark; proto-Saturn would still have shed enough light to brighten the land beneath it. [86]
__For another, sunlight being starlight, photosynthesis would have been able to occur just as well under the light shed by the brown dwarf star that once was Saturn. __red light is the most important spectrum necessary for the growing of plants.
__Brown dwarf stars are known to radiate a propensity of red light.
__Thus, the spectrum of received light on Earth during the Saturnian period would have been much redder than at present [87] and, therefore, more conducive to plant growth.
___[COMMENT: Since northern Pangaea was likely not within the Arctic Circle, photosynthesis would not have been a problem. And if Saturn were over the North Pole during the earlier Age of Darkness, southern Pangaea would have been in the Earth's shadow, so photosynthesis could have been a problem there. I think Antarctica and other parts of southern Pangaea had forests too, as I recall from some of Cardona's other statements.]
[SATURN SIZE CHANGE]
__The age of darkness was separated from the following Golden age by Saturn's flare-up. [88]
__It stands to reason that, before its flare-up, Saturn would have been a more massive body shedding a greater amount of heat and light.
[MARS CLIMATE]
__the reason why Mars is freeze-dried has nothing to do with its distance from the Sun but a lot to do with it being a small planet that cooled off comparatively quickly. [92]
[AGE OF DINOSAURS]
__There has never been any valid evidence presented to even suggest that the dinosaurs and man ever coexisted.
___[COMMENT: I've shown in this thread that there's quite a bit of evidence that dinosaurs lived just a few thousand years ago. C14 dating of dinosaur bones shows ages of 20 to 40 thousand years. Since C14 on Earth was likely lacking before and during the Great Flood, those C14 dates are likely excessive.]

The Afar Triangle As the Nether Reaches of Eden and Babel [Journals] [Aeon]
_From: Aeon II:4 (1991) Lynn E. Rose.

CHRONOLOGY
I organized pretty much all of my posts from this thread that deal with Cataclysmic Chronology
https://futureschool.boards.net/post/807/thread
The last ones are mainly the ones I accept now.

[Lloyd]

I see I forgot to color my first Comment in my previous post all green. The first paragraph is green, but the second isn't. Drats.

[jackokie]

@Lloyd As much as you contribute you must be quite busy - pretty easy to overlook a color now and then.

Thanks again for your efforts - one of your links bore directly on an exploration of microbiology I've embarked on. You are much appreciated!

[Lloyd]

Thanks for coloring my comment properly, Forum Moderator.

And I'm glad to see some of my links are useful, Jack.

[Lloyd]

162324

WHEN THE MID-ATLANTIC RIDGE WAS ABOVE SEA LEVEL

In one of his books, Worlds in Collision or Earth in Upheaval, Velikovsky said a ship in 1949 got a sample of volcanic rock from the MidAtlantic Ridge which was found to have formed in air instead of under water. It could be evidence that sea level was much lower, or, more likely IMO, it could be evidence that the ridge formed when the Americas started to break away from Africa and Europe as the supercontinent of Pangaea was hit by an asteroid that broke it into the present continents. What I'm visualizing is the Atlantic Crack formed on Pangaea (as the asteroid hit Pangaea north of Madagascar) and the crack filled with magma that came up from under the supercontinent. (Mike Fischer [http://newgeology.us/] thinks the crack started by Madagascar and continued on around the southern coast of Africa and up the western side of Africa and Europe. Here's a map of the sea floor. https://assets.spe.org/dims4/default/6b ... p-hero.jpg ) I guess the magma in the Crack hardened enough to form the mid-Atlantic ridge while still exposed to air, then the Crack continued to widen and within a few hours the Pacific Ocean began filling up the Crack with sea water as it continued to widen much more. (Remember that what I've found is that the Pangaea breakup likely occurred about the time of the Younger Dryas event. It may also have been the time of Saturn's departure from Earth's north polar position in the sky. At that time Earth and the other Saturn system planets were about at the position of the asteroid belt between the present orbits of Jupiter and Mars. It seems that Saturn suffered a nova, which may have been involved in the Younger Dryas event, causing a heat wave and ejecta. Maybe the asteroid belt somehow formed from its nova. Also, I've speculated that the Taurid meteor stream may have formed about the same time in the same way. That stream is in an elliptical orbit extending from the orbit of Mercury to that of the asteroid belt. Comet Encke at 4.8 km. or 3 mi. diameter is the largest body in the stream.)

[Lloyd]

162513

CORRECTING SATURNISTS' MAIN ERRORS

_Catastrophists are those who think early history or prehistory involved one or more global cataclysms or catastrophes.
_Saturnists are Catastrophists who think Earth was part of the Saturn planetary system and that the transition from that system to the solar system caused the global cataclysms of ancient times.
_Velikovsky was a Catastrophist and somewhat of a Saturnist, but Cardona, Talbott & others are the primary Saturnists and they have corrected many of Velikovsky's errors. However, they have made major errors of the‏ own and we should correct those as well.
_Creationists are Catastrophists to an extent, who think the Great Flood was a global cataclysm. Saturnists have largely ignored Creationists, but the latter have contributed much excellent science that helps to correct Saturnist errors.
_Shock Dynamics is Mike Fischer's contribution to Catastrophism. It's at NewGeology.us. He supports much of Creationism, but corrects some of their errors as well.
_Personally, I'm for correcting all errors. I'll start next with showing some of Cardona's corrections of Velikovsky, then I'll try to list Saturnist errors, which I think holds back major progress in Catastrophism.

VELIKOVSKY'S ERRORS

_Dwardu Cardona wrote a good autobiography on Saturnism in the late 80s, called The Road to Saturn. It was in two parts. The first part is online at https://www.aeonjournal.com/articles/ro ... aturn.html
_The following are excerpts from Part II.

"One of the first things I unearthed was that the idea of cosmic catastrophism did not originate with Velikovsky. Granted that he might not have been aware of his precursors when he first embarked on his work, Velikovsky himself soon realized it and, despite the accusations of his detractors, did not hide the fact. ...free thinkers have been writing on cosmic catastrophism since the 17th century. Among the best known have been William Whiston ... deputy at Cambridge to Sir Isaac Newton; Ignatius Donnelly, member of Congress, ... Hans Hoerbiger and Philipp Fauth (astronomy enthusiasts) and Hans Schindler Bellamy, a British student of mythology who became Hoerbiger's disciple....

"Through Jan Sammer, then acting as his secretary, Velikovsky let me know that he was emphatically against the concept of Saturn's polar configuration that Talbott and I were independently working on.

"As Peter James had earlier pointed out to de Grazia, Velikovsky had been in error when he identified Aphrodite as the Moon. [Aphrodite was Venus. I think it was confused with the Moon because of the Crescent in the Saturn system, which later people mistook for the Moon.]

"Velikovsky explained Saturn's flare-up as the demise of [Saturn, but ancient texts] leave no doubt that the flare-up constituted the birth, and not the death, of [Saturn]. It does not take much browsing through ancient literature to realize that the shedding of the light heralded the creation and that the long and prosperous era of the Golden Age intervened between it and the deluge. Velikovsky had unfortunately confused the flare-up with the much later dismemberment of the god.... [I think there was a flare-up when Saturn departed from the system too.]

"In Ramses II and his Time, Velikovsky promised that, in a future work, he would show "that what is known as the catastrophe of the Tower of Babel ... was caused by a close passage of Mercury." ... Ancient texts, however, more than intimate that the Tower was not a man-made edifice but, rather, a celestial apparition that was nonetheless physical. As Frederic Jueneman had much earlier surmised, the celestial object that was originally called Mercury was itself the Tower. In fact it was nothing more than the Tower of Kronos/Saturn or, to be more specific, Saturn's churning axis mundi [polar column of light & dust].

"the paper I prepared for the San Jose seminar sponsored by KRONOS, was meant to raise more than just a few eyebrows. ... I not only took Velikovsky to task for his erroneous planetary identifications [the Moon & Mercury above] and the chronological misplacement of mytho-historical events [the first & second millennia BC, instead of earlier], but also those supporters of his who had relied blindly on his statements without having checked the original sources on which Velikovsky had based them. ... and I pleaded for a cognizance of the rising tide of Biblical fundamentalism which I saw, and still see, as a colossal detriment to our cause. [I see it as a partial detriment, but also more an ally, especially in helping to correct the dating of catastrophes.]

"In Worlds in Collision Velikovsky had utilized the events connected with this goddess indiscriminately. Thus, much of what he stated about Venus rightly involves the feminine aspect of the Saturnian deity. Moreover, with one exception, there seems to be no mythic record of the Venerian deity having been given birth by the Jovian one. [I get the impression here that Cardona was suggesting that the polar column was thought to be an umbillical cord to Saturn, since he was discussing the "world navel".]

"1980 finally saw the publication of David Talbott's book. To those who were already familiar with his earlier works, The Saturn Myth contained no surprises. It nevertheless was, and remains, a work of high standards. Talbott had not only done his home-work, he set an excellent example among Velikovskian scholars concerning the thoroughness with which research should be conducted.

"the book failed to gain popularity. Talbott's publishers did not promote it as well as they should have. Book reviewers virtually ignored it and it received very little notice in the "outside" world. This was probably due to the work's lack of sensationalism. Worlds in Collision it was not. While, other than in a pioneering way, it was, in my opinion, superior to Velikovsky's opus, it lacked the latter's epic sweep. For that reason it was not about to grab the public's imagination. This short-coming should have been compensated for on the scholarly front but there, also, the response was meagre. Velikovskian scholars, if no one else, should have embraced it but, sad to say, few of them were prepared to acknowledge, let alone laud, it. Most of those with whom I discussed it were not impressed. ... [They] missed the fact that Talbott's work was the logical fall-out of Velikovsky's own endeavors. It was of course already widely known by then that Velikovsky himself had refused to stand behind Talbott's scheme and my near-identical one. And this might have had a lot to do with the unfortunate repudiation of Talbott's work.

"[Besides] the unverifiable birth of Venus from the planet Jupiter, I had also failed to discover any concrete connection between cometary Venus and the Exodus. Granted that the tale of [the] Exodus hinted at a natural catastrophe of sorts, it had by now become obvious that Velikovsky had mistaken many earlier occurrences as parallels of this event. Granted also that a celestial body had been associated by the ancients with the Exodus ... I could find nothing by which to identify this body as Venus. Moreover, whatever the disaster of the Exodus, it was much smaller in scale than Velikovsky had assumed. So, also, with the proposed Martian catastrophes of the 8th and 7th centuries B.C. I accept that some cosmic disturbances occurred during those times but nothing in ancient literature connects those [mild] commotions ... with the planet Mars. [Randall Carlson explained that as the Earth passed through the Taurid meteor stream twice a year, there were more relatively large bodies in the stream in ancient times, which resulted in occasional smaller-scale collisions. The deaths from these collisions which usually occurred in late October gave rise to the celebration of Halloween, in memory of those who died.]

SATURNIST ERRORS

SEDIMENTARY STRATA FROM A GREAT FLOOD

I first read Velikovsky's books, Worlds in Collision, Earth in Upheaval, and Ages in Chaos in 1969, a few months before I quite college in my second year. I followed developments in the magazines, Pensee', Kronos, Thoth (online) and Aeon. I think it was in the 90s that I read several books about the Great Flood. The best one was probably "In the Minds of Men" by Ian Taylor. His best evidence for the Flood I think was the fact that sedimentary rock strata are mostly parallel to each other and nearly horizontal, with no significant evidence of erosion between strata. If there was no erosion, then there must have been very little time between depositions. Another fact he pointed out is that in a stratum in Ohio there are many fossils from a school of mud sharks that obviously died while being buried under a very heavy load of sediment. Their bodies were in swimming positions, indicating that they were trying to swim away until they suffocated. Their bodies were smashed to about a fourth of an inch thick. A recent book, Noah's Flood: The Key to Correct Interpretation of Earth History by Dr John Baumgardner explains further that all or nearly all of the sedimentary rock layers on Earth were deposited in 6 megasequences, with very little erosion, except brief sheet erosion, between megasequences.

RECENTNESS OF CATACLYSMS

What all this means is that the millions of years attributed to each stratum are wrong. The sedimentary strata are only some thousands of years old, not millions. Something I figured out myself is that flooding is the only way to sort out the different kinds of strata, i.e. shale, sandstone and limestone. So they all had to be deposited at the same time, instead of over long ages. There weren't highlands of just sand that eroded and deposited it to form sandstone. There weren't mountains of just mud or clay either. And these facts are the main ones overlooked by Saturnists. Creationists are much closer to the truth in this matter. (But Creationists deny that ancient myths describe ancient cataclysms as well as does the Bible.)

TWO GREAT FLOODS, TWO OR MORE SATURN FLARE-UPS

Cardona thought the Younger Dryas event occurred 10,000 or more years ago, like conventional dating says, but I've shown that the dating is wrong and that it occurred probably at the end of the Polar Configuration. A Saturn flare-up may have caused or contributed to the Younger Dryas event. I found that there must have been two Floods, an early one when Pangaea was all lowland that was easy to flood with tsunamis, and another during the Younger Dryas event when Pangaea broke up and the continents moved rapidly apart. If iridium, nanodiamonds etc came from Saturn flare-ups, then there were at least two flare-ups, since there is one layer of them from the dinosaur times of the ‏first Great Flood and another layer from the Younger Dryas.

PANGAEA WAS RECENT & NOT IN THE ARCTIC

So far, it's not clear if and when the Earth tipped over. Cardona wrote a lot about Saturn having been over Earth's North Pole. He thought the Arctic was warmed by Saturn and that forests etc growing in the Arctic circle received light from Saturn overhead. And animals thrived there in an ideal climate. But, since Pangaea was centered close to the equator and did not extend beyond 50 or 60 degrees north latitude, the northern parts of Pangaea would not have been within the Arctic circle at that time, not until the Younger Dryas event. It was probably about the time of the Younger Dryas event that the Earth may have tipped over just before Saturn's departure. And it was about the same time Pangaea was broken into separate continents, with the northern ones reaching into the Arctic circle.

CAUSE OF SATURN FLARES

It's still plausible that Earth and the entire Saturn system either came from outside the solar system, or were on a highly elliptical orbit whose aphelion was beyond the orbit of Pluto, partly because of the evidence of the Age of Darkness. However, as Charles Chandler explained, it's highly unlikely that Saturn flared up due to crossing the heliopause, since there's no obvious, distinct boundary that would have any effect on Saturn. Instead, I've suggested that it may have been Saturn encountering the heliospheric current sheet that triggered its flares. That sheet presently only extends about to the orbit of Saturn, so it would have been much closer to the Sun when the flare-ups occurred.

It occurs to me that Catastrophism is like trying to solve a murder mystery, for which we need a Sherlock. Right?

[Lloyd]

163154

ADDING EVERYTHING UP

I'm now trying to put all of the puzzle pieces in place. I haven't found all the pieces yet, but I have quite a bunch and will start with those and put them in a logical order. After I do that, I'll probably need to explain the logic. First, I'll list the main characters.

SATURN TRAIN: Ancient Saturn Dwarf Star system

_The train apparently included in this order Jupiter, Jupiter Moons, Saturn, Saturn Moons, Venus, Mars, Earth, Neptune & a polar column of dust & debris connecting them all.
_Uranus, Mercury, Pluto, Asteroids, Comets & debris may also have accompanied the train.
_Stars & Planets likely form in filaments via electrical implosion as per CC.
_So the train may have been forming with the Sun being a distant part that the train was approaching.
_LOGIC NOTE: Cardona thought Jupiter followed Earth, whereas Talbott thought it preceded Saturn. It makes more sense if Talbott was right, because when Saturn probably later left the train near the Asteroid Belt and Jupiter replaced Saturn, Jupiter was likely in the lead position where it provided heat for Earth so that life did not freeze to death while moving to its present orbit. Saturn may have encountered Jupiter as the former began to leave the train, which may have changed Jupiter's axis tilt. And Jupiter's new axis tilt may have affected Venus' tilt as well, since it was next in line after Jupiter when Saturn left. The other planets retained Saturn's tilt, except for Uranus, Mercury & Pluto, which latter may have been jostled around during the extended breakup of the train. I'm not confident that axis tilts are important, but for now I'll assume they are.
_Below I'll call the ancient Saturn system the SATURN TRAIN.
_Question marks indicate that the time of the event or feature is less certain.

__4,000-3,000 BC
__ST: SATURN TRAIN: passed through the Kuiper Belt & reached the orbit of Pluto (The mythical Age of Darkness suggests that the system was far from the Sun.)
_S: SATURN: was dimly VISIBLE from Earth (The Sun was not visible at all, but Saturn, which was maybe at the distance of our present Moon, or beyond, was visible as a large dim circle, not just a point, like stars are seen now.)
_O: OTHER PLANETS: were NOT VISIBLE
_O: ?NEPTUNE: left the Train, retaining Saturn's Tilt
_O: ?URANUS: left the Train, but tripped on something & got an eccentric Tilt, while its Moons retained its previous Tilt
_EA: EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE: was THICK (thicker than now, because impacts surely removed a lot after that)
_P: EARTH'S LANDMASS: was the PANGAEA SUPERCONTINENT
_P: PANGAEA'S INHABITANTS: were
_D: DINOSAURS
_T: LYCOPOD TREES, FORESTS
_MM: EARLY MAMMALS
_TC: EARLY HUMANS
-----

__3,000 BC
_ST: SATURN TRAIN: reached the orbit of Saturn
_SN: ?SATURN: went NOVA due to reaching the ‭Sun's electric current sheet (I can't tell yet if it likely went nova at the outset of the Great Flood, or just toward the end, when the iridium layer was deposited)
_P: PANGAEA: was all lowland (easy to flood)
_F1: PANGAEA FLOOD: was caused by
_A1: AN ELLIPTICALLY ORBITING ASTEROID OR MOON: which caused tsunamis & the Flood
_A2: AN ASTEROID SWARM: caused many impacts
_EC: EARTH'S IMPACT BASINS: have the thickest sediments
_MC: ?MOON IMPACT CRATERS: formed & the Moon was NOT VISIBLE yet
_SR: FLOOD DEPOSITS: were Sedimentary Strata, Coal, Oil & Fossils
_VE: ?VOLCANOES & EARTHQUAKES: possibly occurred
-----

__3,000-2,300 BC
_ST: SATURN TRAIN: SATURN, SATURN MOONS, VENUS, MARS & THE POLAR DUST COLUMN became VISIBLE
_SO: OTHERS remained HIDDEN
_P: PANGAEA:
_A3: ?CHICXULUB IMPACT: caused tsunami to North Dakota
_PI: NORTHWEST PANGAEA HAD AN ICE SHEET: covering most of Canada, NW. U.S. & W. Europe
_PO: ICE-FREE PANGAEA HAD A GOLDEN AGE: in Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, Australia, Antarctica, South America, S. North America
_D: DINOSAUR EXTINCTION: occurred due to impacts & flooding
_TC: ADVANCED CIVILIZATION Sumeria, Egypt {first Intermediate Period}, Tiahuanaco ...
_MM: GIANT MAMMALS
_T: FORESTS
_EA: MODERATELY THICK ATMOSPHERE Some loss due to impacts
_F2: ?SATURN DUAL WATER STREAMS ORBIT
_V: ?VENUS SPIRAL ORBIT
_M: ?GIANT MARS
_V,M: ?VENUS & MARS RETURN TO POLAR COLUMN
_PC: ?POLAR COLUMN RETRACTED
-----

__2,300 BC
_ST: SATURN TRAIN reached the Asteroid Belt
_A2: ASTEROID SWARM at Asteroid Belt
_SN: ?SATURN NOVA
_P: PANGAEA
_H: CONFLAGRATION from Nova heat
_PI: ICE SHEET IMPACTS NW Pangaea: MI, Greenland,
_EC: SECONDARY IMPACTS Carolina Bays, Nebraska basins, ?MN craters, North Sea craters
_F3: ICE SHEET MELT FLOODS from Conflagration & Impacts
_VE: MAGMA FLOODS, VOLCANOES & EARTHQUAKES Washington, India, Siberia
_EC: HUDSON BAY IMPACT
_MC: MOON CRATERS, MOON INVISIBLE
_EC: SEYCHELLES ASTEROID IMPACT near east Africa
_SD: SHOCK DYNAMICS
_P: PANGAEA BREAKUP
_VE: MID OCEAN RIDGE formed above sea level
_OC: ATLANTIC & INDIAN OCEANS
_CT: SEPARATED CONTINENTS
_MT: MOUNTAIN CHAINS
_MM: GIANT MAMMALS EXTINCTION
_TC: CIVILIZATION SETBACK Egypt second Intermediate Period, Tiahuanaco Flood & Uplift ...
_VE: YELLOWSTONE SUPERVOLCANO STRING
_F4: PANGAEA BREAKUP FLOODS
_SR: FLOOD DEPOSITS, i.e. the last one or two megasequences, Zuni, Tejas
_D: ?NOVA OR IMPACTS DEPOSITS iridium, nanodiamonds ...
_GC: ?GRAND CANYON
_AC: ?ANTARCTIC CANYON
_AI: ANTARCTIC ICE SHEET
_GI: GREENLAND ICE SHEET REMNANT
_S: ?SATURN DEPARTURE
_J: ?JUPITER ARRIVAL
_MO: MOON ARRIVAL
_MS: ?TAURID METEOR STREAM FORMATION
_EA: THINNER ATMOSPHERE from more impacts
_JT: JUPITER TRAIN: JUPITER WARMED EARTH from Asteroid Belt to present Orbit
-----
__2,300-0 BC
_TC: BRONZE AGE, CIVILIZATION REBUILT
_R: SATURN-JUPITER RELIGIONS & MYTHS spread
_MS: TAURID METEORS continued to cause occasional local cataclysms usually around Halloween

[Lloyd]

164145

GLEANINGS FROM CARDONA'S 1988 ESSAY

[VELA SUPERNOVA WAS FIRST THOUGHT TO BE THE RETURN OF SATURN]
The Road to Saturn (Excerpts from an Autobiographical Essay)
_From: Aeon I:3 (1988) - Dwardu Cardona PART II
__I. 1977 saw the publication of George Michanowsky's The Once and Future Star. In this work Michanowsky maintained that the rise of civilization and the origin of religious beliefs owe their impetus to the ____sudden appearance of a bright light in the sky.
_[A] pulsar was detected in the southern constellation Vela and thus received the popular designation Vela X. The stellar explosion that gave birth to this pulsar occurred somewhere between 1300 and 1500 light years away and must therefore have appeared in Earth's sky for many months as a prominent light that might even have shone as a smaller second sun by day. Searching in Sumerian documents for a possible reference to this ancient stellar outburst, Michanowsky believed he found it in a cuneiform list of star names. The item that matches the event reads: "The gigantic star of the god Ea in the constellation Vela of the god Ea."
_What is curious about Vela X is its Sumerian connection with the god Ea since Ea was one of the personifications of the planet Saturn. In fact, as I have already noted elsewhere, Michanowsky's entire work is littered with purely Saturnian motifs, though he did not seem to recognize this.
_in one Greek-written version of the Mesopotamian Deluge myth, the god Ea is rendered Kronos, which is Greek for Saturn.
_In classical literature and in subsequent esoteric writings, the name Cronus is identified with a former Golden Age and its eagerly awaited return." [Emphasis added.] It was, however, not merely the return of the Golden Age that was eagerly awaited by the ancients, but also the return of the god-king that had ruled over it. The Jews are not the only ones who await the coming of their Messiah. Christians also await the second coming of Jesus who was said to have been born under a star. Both these beliefs, as well as others, trace to an ancient hope. The Saturnian deity, who had once disappeared only to return and disappear again, had long been expected to affect another appearance.
_Had he been aware of the Saturnian scenario that others had been slowly unfolding, [Michanowsky] might have realized that this ancient hope culminated, albeit falsely, rather than originated with Vela X. Judging by the Sumerian record discovered by Michanowsky, the supernova of Vela X would have to have occurred sometime around 4000 B.C. In that much I agree. It would, however, have occurred too late to inaugurate the rise of civilization and its attendant religious beliefs. What it might have done is help to perpetuate both. As the appearance of a sudden bright light in the sky, it would have been enough to remind our ancestors of that more ancient burst of light that had heralded the appearance of their god and the beginning of the Golden Age.

[JUPITER WARMED EARTH'S SOUTH POLE?]
_As the mythological record implies, Saturn would only have shone as a sun following its flare-up through the period of the Golden Age.
_How would the Earth's southern hemisphere have been warmed enough to sustain life? This question could be answered by again positing a southern placement for Jupiter where the Earth would have been suspended between the two giants as some myths seem to imply.
[COMMENT: The south pole didn't need warming, because Antarctica didn't move there till ca. the Younger Dryas event, i.e. during the breakup of Pangaea.]

[SATURN'S CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK OBSCURED STARS]
_As for the invisibility of stars, Griffard was of the opinion that the Earth "could have been enshrouded in some obscuration emanating from the parent body [Saturn] itself."
_Griffard's suggestion directed me to the accretion disc, or placental cloud, theory.
_[With] Saturn ... prior to its flare-up ... surrounded by a placental cloud ... The sky would have been completely obscured by the colossal accretion disc, thus effectively hiding not only the stars but also the Sun; Saturn's southern hemisphere would have protruded bodily through its equatorial cloud, thus rendering itself quite clearly as a fast rotating globe to Earthly eyes; and its red glow would have been sufficient to heat the Earth at close proximity without actually dissolving the gloom. The same placental cloud, rotating as a giant whirlpool in the sky, would also have been the dark abysmal deep out of which creation was said to have progressed, the very chaos out of which Saturn was to organize his heavenly realm. The flare-up, when it finally occurred, would then have blown this placental cloud into the far reaches of space to be replaced, but only temporarily, by the new spiraling matter that Saturn was seen to spew from its still rotating orb.

[THE GOLDEN AGE BEGAN AFTER SATURN'S FLARE-UP]
_Velikovsky explained Saturn's flare-up as the demise of that planetary deity with the deluge following seven days after the occurrence. The texts, however, leave no doubt that the flare-up constituted the birth, and not the death, of the Saturnian deity. It does not take much browsing through ancient literature to realize that the shedding of the light heralded the creation and that the long and prosperous era of the Golden Age intervened between it and the deluge.
_Ancient texts ... more than intimate that the Tower [of Babel] was not a man-made edifice but, rather, a celestial apparition that was nonetheless physical. As Frederic Jueneman had much earlier surmised, the celestial object that was originally called Mercury was itself the Tower. In fact it was nothing more than the Tower of Kronos/Saturn or, to be more specific, Saturn's churning axis mundi [the polar column].

[DIFFERENT LIGHT IN THE PRIOR AGE OF DARKNESS]
_"[In order] for the vast assemblages of diurnal creatures to have survived {Saturn's Dark Age}, some measure of visible light would have been required ... Above all, ultraviolet and infrared would have been required for all links in the terrestrial food chain. This suggests a form of light that was low in the visible wavelengths, but ascending from red into strong infrared, and from violet into strong ultraviolet. Since there would have been no sunlight to scatter pale blue in the sky, the sky would have appeared a deep purple or magenta."

[SATURN SYSTEM BUBBLE]
_Ashton ... [supposed that] a shell of gas, or gas bubble, ... would effectively have shielded the stars from mortal eyes while leaving Saturn clearly visible in the sky; and it would have reflected back the infrared and ultraviolet radiation emanating from Saturn. ... I could visualize such a shell as having been formed from the gases expelled by an even more ancient Saturnian flare, which gases would then partly have been held back and sustained by the double attraction of Saturn and Jupiter between which the Earth would have been suspended.
[COMMENT: The bubble might be the same as the placental disk mentioned above.]

[CLOTHING & COLOR CHANGE AFTER SATURN FLARE-UP]
_Following Saturn's flare-up and the formation of the axis mundi, the atmospheric environment would have changed. If, as per Jueneman, the axis was a cosmic cyclone, it would have drawn much of the Earth's atmosphere into its hungry vortex. This would have lessened the density of the air while the increased heat from the unveiled Sun, augmented by the increased heat from Saturn itself, would have evened out the atmospheric temperature. The mirage-like effect would have come to a sudden end. Of miraculous colored stones of light, which could be understood as the fluorescence activated by ultraviolet light on certain minerals, there were also some hints in the myths. The most rewarding evidence, however, came from a particular source which claimed that, during the age of darkness, the human skin was of different hue. Under ultraviolet light, it definitely would have been. Moreover, this source describes the awe with which men looked upon the changed color of their skin in the light of the unveiled Sun. In fact it is stated that humans did not easily get accustomed to this change and that it was for this very reason that clothing was invented. This brings to mind the indigo dye extracted from the plant Isatis tinctoria, popularly known as woad, with which the ancient Britons were said to have dyed themselves. Was this custom originated in an effort to retain the "original" hue of the human epidermis prior to the Golden Age? And what of the dyes extracted from the sea snails, murex trunculus and murex brandaris, of the eastern Mediterranean, a dye that was reserved for the violet robes of monarches, the well known royal purple? Were the kings of ancient times not perhaps imitating the hue of their Saturnian forebear, from whom it was said that royalty itself descended, the very first king of the world? Was Saturn himself not described as having once been blue-black in color?

[BEARDED VENUS COMET ON SATURN'S BAND]
_In some of the earliest literature from Sumer, the planet Venus is referred to as the "edge star" or "star of the periphery." Together with other mythological motifs, this had led me to conclude that Venus had once orbited Saturn on the periphery, or edge, of its encircling band(s). Its cometary tail - which, unlike my colleagues, I did not conceive of having been curled - would have thus appeared as a short protrusion, lending the human-shaped likeness of the Saturnian configuration a tufted countenance. This, in my opinion, could account for the descriptions of a bearded Mother Goddess as encountered in the mythology of the races.

[Lloyd]

164409

CARDONA'S ARCTIC ERROR
_Cardona didn't realize that Pangaea didn't break up until about the Younger Dryas event ca. 2,300 BC. So the dinosaurs and other megafauna and megaflora weren't in the Arctic when they lived and so they didn't need Saturn's heat from above the north pole. I think Saturn was more likely above Egypt's Great Pyramid where Earth's north pole may have been initially.

DINOSAURS IN WEAKER GRAVITY BEFORE THE GREAT FLOOD
_As Ted Holden has found, there was likely weaker gravity before the Great Flood, which was some centuries before the Younger Dryas event. The weak gravity allowed some dinosaurs and plants to grow exceptionally tall. The Great Flood and impacts killed them and deposited about half or more of the sedimentary rock strata on Pangaea, burying them. Large mammals, much smaller than the large dinosaurs, were then free to enter the former dinosaur territory of northern Pangaea.

MEGAFAUNA DIED ON PANGAEA BEFORE NORTHERN CONTINENTS MOVED INTO THE ARCTIC
_Mammoths and other megafauna remains found in the Arctic likely were not originally in the Arctic. Eurasia, North America, and the animals there, were likely at lower latitudes that were warmer, because the land was part of the supercontinent, Pangaea. When Pangaea broke up into separate continents that rapidly moved apart, many mammoths etc were killed by the Younger Dryas flood and some were killed by an ice comet or a Saturn nova that dumped ammonia or nitrogen on Siberia after the flood, which made the very deep permafrost. If it was an icy comet, the comet was likely part of the asteroid swarm that produced the Younger Dryas impacts. When the asteroid broke up Pangaea, the northern parts of Pangaea moved northward into the Arctic Circle.

EARLY CIVILIZATION CONTEMPORARY WITH MEGAFAUNA
_South Pangaea had civilization before the YD (probably at Egypt, Sumer & Tiahuanaco at least). So they were contemporaries of the mammoths and other megafauna. Certain kinds of megalithic structures may tell us if there was civilization in north Pangaea, like maybe in China or Europe. There was apparently an inland sea that seems to have separated north and south Pangaea.

QUESTIONS.
1. What caused gravity to get stronger at ca. the time of the Great Flood?
2. Where did the megafauna live before the Great Flood? Mike Fischer said they and humans lived on the part of Antarctica that was a separate island away from Pangaea before the later Pangaea breakup, which I think would have been near the south pole. So, if correct, then was the south pole warm?
3. How long did it take for Flood sediments to lithify? And how did soil form on top of the sediments? Did plants colonize the moist sediments and form soil?