Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Rick]

When you use the term "The Great Flood" are you referring to the biblical story?

[Lloyd]

Here are the topics from my 2 previous posts on the previous page.

IPUWER PAPYRUS FROM 2ND INTERMEDIATE PERIOD OF EGYPT
MYTHS, PETROGLYPHS, ENHANCED AURORA
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =345#p3380

REVISED BIBLE CHRONOLOGY
A Brief Summary of the Evidence for a Gap in the Bible and Much Earlier Dates for Many of its Major Events
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =345#p3384

And now I'll answer Rick.

THE GREAT FLOOD

Yes, by the Great Flood, I mean the Flood described in the Bible and numerous other places. I don't claim that the story of Noah and the ark are necessarily literally true, since that part of the story may be describing planetary etc events in the sky, but the Flood seems to best explain Earth's sedimentary rock record and possibly some of the metamorphic and igneous rock formations as well. John Baumgardner's papers on Noah's Flood explain the Flood better than anything else I know of, except for his idea about continental drift. Mike Fischer's site, https://www.newgeology.us/ , is the best I know of for explaining continental drift, although I think the rapid continental drift event occurred at a late stage of the Flood, whereas he thinks it occurred a few centuries later. There does seem to have been another catastrophe that involved less severe flooding a few centuries after the Great Flood, but it was apparently considerably less destructive and of much shorter duration, i.e. the Younger Dryas impact event, aka the last Saturn Nova event.

Here's some info on one of Baumgardner's papers.
NOAH’S FLOOD: THE KEY TO CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF EARTH HISTORY
by John Baumgardner, Ph.D. | Sep 18, 2013
https://www.socalsem.edu/noahs-flood-th ... th-history
Here's a Table of Contents of the paper, plus a couple excerpts.
_Abstract
One of the main reasons that people trained in the sciences today ignore the account in the Torah of a recent global Flood cataclysm is that they are persuaded that the standard geological timescale is in large measure correct. This paper reviews research that shows that the key assumption underpinning that timescale, namely, the time invariance of nuclear decay processes is false. That conclusion is being affirmed by increasing numbers of publications reporting soft tissue preservation in animal fossils from deep in the geological record. With the barrier of the timescale removed, spectacular physical evidence for a global catastrophic Flood of the sort described in the Torah and Quran becomes obvious. The complete destruction of all land-dwelling, air-breathing life on earth, except that preserved on the ark of Noah, as described in these accounts, immediately suggests that the fossils preserved in the sediment record must represent plants and animals destroyed in the Flood. The logical place in the rock record for the onset of this cataclysm therefore must be where five striking global-scale geological discontinuities—a mechanical-erosional discontinuity, a time/age discontinuity, a tectonic discontinuity, a sedimentary discontinuity, and a paleontological discontinuity coincide (Snelling 2009, 707-711). This unique boundary lies at the base of the Ediacaran in the late Neoproterozoic part of the geological record. Where Ediacaran sediments are missing, it coincides with the Precambrian-Cambrian boundary where Cambrian sediments are present. The identification of this boundary with the onset of the Flood implies that a staggering amount of tectonic catastrophism also must have accompanied the large amount of erosion and sedimentation involved. This paper summarizes some of the work done over the past thirty years to apply numerical modeling to investigate various aspects of this year-long event that dramatically refashioned the face of the earth.
_Introduction
_Radioisotope dating — why the time scale cannot be absolute
_High levels of He retention in zircons
_Polonium radiohalos — from where does the Po arise?
_14C still present in Paleozoic and Mesozoic fossils
_A radically revised time scale
_Original tissue preservation in fossils affirms the RATE conclusions
_Prominent Physical Aspects of Noah’s Flood
_The Great Unconformity
_Megasequences
_Global-scale numerical modeling of Flood erosion and sedimentation
In the context of the global Flood described in the Torah, what could possibly have been the mechanism that resulted in such a large-scale pattern of erosion and sedimentation? Recently Baumgardner (2013) has developed a numerical model designed to explore this issue. The numerical approach applies the equations of open channel turbulent flow to model sediment transport and deposition within the framework of a scheme that solves the shallow water equations on a rotating sphere. The treatment of erosion is restricted to cavitation. Up to this point the continental geometry has been restricted to a single circular supercontinent that covers 38% of the spherical surface. Numerical experiments so far suggest that large tidal pulses are required to drive the water strongly enough to erode, transport, and deposit the required volumes of sediment.
[[COMMENT: I think in another paper he said the tidal waves may have been caused by a body like a moon orbiting Earth elliptically for 6 months or so. The tidal waves would have occurred as the body was near perigee about once a month. If I'm wrong and he didn't say that, then it's what I gathered from the above-described modeling.]]
_General characteristics of the sediment record consistent with a global-scale Flood
_Evidences of catastrophic process internal to the sediment layers
_Fossil graveyards
_Coal deposits point to catastrophic process
_Massive removal of sediment from continent interiors during final stages of the Flood
_Rapid uplift of today’s high mountain ranges and an Ice Age after the Flood
_New insights concerning the Flood from the ocean bottom
_Catastrophic plate tectonics—a logical necessity
_Application of advanced material models developed for metals to study rock deformation
_Seismic tomography support for a recent episode of catastrophic plate tectonics
_Numerical modeling of Flood tectonics in 3D spherical geometry
_Conclusions

[Lloyd]

24815



MY EARTH HISTORY SUMMARY
https://futureschool.boards.net/post/36/thread
1. 1st Age: PREGENESIS -- ENDED WITH 1'. GENESIS "CREATION" EVENT 6,000(±10c) BP
2. 2nd Age: EARLY GOLDEN AGE -- ENDED WITH 2'. GREAT FLOOD 4,700(#2c) BP
3. 3rd Age: LATE GOLDEN AGE -- ENDED WITH 3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT 4,300(#1c) BP
4. 4th Age: PRECHRISTIAN ERA -- ENDED WITH 4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT 2,020-1,990 BP
5. 5th Age: CHRISTIAN ERA 1,990 BP to PRESENT

MY TIMELINE OF MAJOR EVENTS
1'. 4000 BC = 6000(±10c) BP GENESIS "CREATION" EVENT
2'. 2700 BC = 4700(#2c) BP 2'. GREAT FLOOD
3'. 2300 BC = 4300(#1c) BP 3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT
4'. ~ 0 BC = 2020-1990 BP 4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT

CHARLES CHANDLER'S CHRONOLOGY + MY COMMENTS
-- See http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6883
3761 BC = 5761 BP Sumerians began time-keeping. [[Probably much later after YDE]]
2686 BC = 4686 BP The beginning of Egypt's Old Kingdom. [[ABOUT RIGHT]]
[[2300 BD = 4300 BP YOUNGER DRYAS CATACLYSM]]
2000 BC = 4000 BP People from the East founded Babylon. [[ABOUT RIGHT]]
1803 BC = 3803 BP Noah was born.
[[CC says there was a major flood during Noah's lifetime, but it would likely have been over 500 years earlier during the YD Cataclysm, unless there was another lesser, but major flood thereafter. The Great Flood and YD Cataclysm may have been conflated.]]
1740 BC = 3740 BP The Hyksos gained control of the eastern delta. [[?]]
1700 BC = 3700 BP Nimrod built the Tower of Babel. [[?]]
1550 BC = 3550 BP Ahmose I expelled the Hyksos to Jerusalem.
1415 BC = 3415 BP Terah took Abraham with him to Harran.
1380 BC = 3380 BP Abraham & Sarah were expelled from Egypt. [[SODOM & GOMORRAH DESTROYED by late major impact event]]
1368 BC = 3368 BP Rebekah (Tadukhipa) married Amenhotep III.
1354 BC = 3354 BP Moses was made vizier to Amenhotep III.
1352 BC = 3352 BP Akhenaten became pharaoh.
1338 BC = 3338 BP Moses married Zipporah, daughter of Isaac.
1332 BC = 3332 BP Tutankhamun became pharaoh.
.......... Esau began a 9-year tenure as lord of Hebron.
1319 BC = 3319 BP Horemheb became pharaoh.
1314 BC = 3314 BP The Ten Plagues
1312 BC = 3312 BP The Main Exodus ------- [[THE PILLAR OF SMOKE & FIRE may have conflated the Late Golden Age polar column and an earlier migration with the Exodus]]
1307 BC = 3307 BP Moses gave the Book of the Law to the Hebrews.
1292 BC = 3292 BP Ramesses I became pharaoh.
1288 BC = 3288 BP End of Main Exodus
1208 BC = 3208 BP Merneptah suppressed the Sea Peoples.
1200 BC = 3200 BP Phoenicians came to dominate the Mediterranean.
1042 BC = 3042 BP Saul became king.
1012 BC = 3012 BP David became king. ------- [[DAVID KILLED THE GIANT may have conflated Late Golden Age Giants with David]]
0971 BC = 2971 BP Solomon became king.

[Lloyd]

24815

SOME MAJOR PARTS OF EGYPTIAN, BIBLICAL & CATASTROPHIST CHRONOLOGY

MY EARTH HISTORY SUMMARY
https://futureschool.boards.net/post/36/thread
1. 1st Age: PREGENESIS -- ENDED WITH 1'. GENESIS "CREATION" EVENT 6,000(±10c) BP
2. 2nd Age: EARLY GOLDEN AGE -- ENDED WITH 2'. GREAT FLOOD 4,700(#2c) BP
3. 3rd Age: LATE GOLDEN AGE -- ENDED WITH 3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT 4,300(#1c) BP
4. 4th Age: PRECHRISTIAN ERA -- ENDED WITH 4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT 2,020-1,990 BP
5. 5th Age: CHRISTIAN ERA 1,990 BP to PRESENT

MY TIMELINE OF MAJOR EVENTS
1'. 4000 BC = 6000(±10c) BP GENESIS "CREATION" EVENT
2'. 2700 BC = 4700(#2c) BP 2'. GREAT FLOOD
3'. 2300 BC = 4300(#1c) BP 3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT
4'. ~ 0 BC = 2020-1990 BP 4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT

CHARLES CHANDLER'S CHRONOLOGY + MY COMMENTS
-- See http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6883
3761 BC = 5761 BP Sumerians began time-keeping. [[Probably much later after YDE]]
2686 BC = 4686 BP The beginning of Egypt's Old Kingdom. [[ABOUT RIGHT]]
[[2300 BC = 4300 BP YOUNGER DRYAS CATACLYSM]]
2000 BC = 4000 BP People from the East founded Babylon. [[ABOUT RIGHT]]
1803 BC = 3803 BP Noah was born.
[[CC says there was a major flood during Noah's lifetime, but it would likely have been over 500 years earlier during the YD Cataclysm, unless there was another lesser, but major flood thereafter. The Great Flood and YD Cataclysm may have been conflated.]]
1740 BC = 3740 BP The Hyksos gained control of the eastern delta.
1700 BC = 3700 BP Nimrod built the Tower of Babel.
1550 BC = 3550 BP Ahmose I expelled the Hyksos to Jerusalem.
1415 BC = 3415 BP Terah took Abraham with him to Harran.
1380 BC = 3380 BP Abraham & Sarah were expelled from Egypt. [[SODOM & GOMORRAH DESTROYED by late major impact event]]
1368 BC = 3368 BP Rebekah (Tadukhipa) married Amenhotep III.
1354 BC = 3354 BP Moses was made vizier to Amenhotep III.
1352 BC = 3352 BP Akhenaten became pharaoh.
1338 BC = 3338 BP Moses married Zipporah, daughter of Isaac.
1332 BC = 3332 BP Tutankhamun became pharaoh.
.......... Esau began a 9-year tenure as lord of Hebron.
1319 BC = 3319 BP Horemheb became pharaoh.
1314 BC = 3314 BP The Ten Plagues
1312 BC = 3312 BP The Main Exodus [[THE PILLAR OF SMOKE & FIRE may have conflated the Late Golden Age polar column and an earlier migration with the Exodus]]
1307 BC = 3307 BP Moses gave the Book of the Law to the Hebrews.
1292 BC = 3292 BP Ramesses I became pharaoh.
1288 BC = 3288 BP End of Main Exodus
1208 BC = 3208 BP Merneptah suppressed the Sea Peoples.
1200 BC = 3200 BP Phoenicians came to dominate the Mediterranean.
1042 BC = 3042 BP Saul became king.
1012 BC = 3012 BP David became king. [[DAVID KILLED THE GIANT may have conflated Late Golden Age Giants with David]]
0971 BC = 2971 BP Solomon became king.

[Lloyd]

25187

TRYING TO FIND THE DATE OF THE GREAT FLOOD

BAUMGARDNER'S PAPER SHOWS THAT SEDIMENTARY ROCK WAS MOSTLY FLOOD-DEPOSITED
See https://www.socalsem.edu/noahs-flood-th ... th-history

THE CONTINENTS ARE ABOUT 6,000 YEARS OLD?
Response to Dr Justin Payne's presentation Geochronology: Understanding the Uncertainties, by Jim Mason
https://creation.com/geochronology-uncertainties
Published: 2 April 2015 (GMT+10)
_I submit that the geological record shows considerable evidence that the earth is actually about 6,000 years old, including:
a. measurements of the amount of radiogenic helium retained in zircon crystals from deep in the earth’s crust
b. measurements of the amount of radiogenic argon retained in feldspar in granites from deep in the earth’s crust.
c. measurements of the amount of radiocarbon in coal from various layers in the geological column
d. measurements of the amount of radiocarbon in diamonds from rock deep in the earth’s crust
e. measurements of the amount of radiocarbon in dinosaur bones from various layers in the geological column
f. discovery of various soft biological tissues in dinosaur bones found in various layers in the geological column
_Coal samples from layers in the geological column allegedly ranging in age from about 30 million years to over 300 million years were found to contain significant amounts of 14C, clearly indicating that the coal is only a few thousand years old. Furthermore, the coal samples all had roughly the same amount of 14C regardless of the geological layer from which they had been extracted, indicating that the vegetation that was buried to form the coal all grew at about the same time.
_ In the same study that looked at the level of 14C in coal, the level of 14C in diamonds was also measured. This turned out to be only slightly less than the level in coal [meaning slightly older]....
_Dinosaur bones have been found to contain about the same amount of 14C as the coal samples mentioned above.
_Genetics research indicates that each member of each new generation of humans has 80–300 mutations not present in that member’s parents.... The mutations accumulate and this increasing mutational load represents an inexorable decrease in overall fitness. Geneticists have estimated this decrease in fitness to be of the order of 1%–2% per generation. ... With a 6,000 year scenario at 30 years per generation, the current fitness would be about 13%.
[[COMMENT: I hope to find the details for all of the above.]]

THE CONTINENTS ARE UNDER 8,000 YEARS OLD
Radiometric dating breakthroughs, by Carl Wieland
https://creation.com/radiometric-dating-breakthroughs
_Measuring the rate at which helium leaks out of zircons ... these crystals (and since this is Precambrian basement granite, by implication the whole earth) could not be older than 14,000 years ... [later] updated to give a date of 5,680 (± 2,000) years.
[[COMMENT: Granite is not a primary constituent of seafloor basement rock, but only of contiental basement rock. The former supercontinent seems to have formed from the soft landing on Earth of an asteroid.]]
_Interestingly, [rock?] specimens which appear to definitely be pre-Flood seem to have 14C present, too, and importantly, these cluster around a lower relative amount of 14C. This suggests that some 14C was primordial (existing from the very beginning), and not produced by cosmic rays — thus limiting the age of the entire earth to only a few thousand years.
_Dr Baumgardner sent five diamonds to be analyzed for 14C. ... The diamonds ... formed deep inside the earth.... The diamonds’ carbon-dated ‘age’ of about 58,000 years is thus an upper limit for the age of the whole earth.
[[COMMENT: Again, the supercontinent likely formed from an asteroid soft impact, so the age of the supercontinent is what is likely being measured, not the whole Earth.]]

POST-FLOOD WOOD UNDER 38,000 YEARS OLD
Conflicting ‘ages’ of Tertiary basalt and contained fossilised wood, Crinum, Central Queensland, Australia, Andrew A. Snelling
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/tj_v14n2_crinum.pdf
_Fossilised wood found entombed in a Tertiary basalt flow at Crinum in central Queensland was identified as probably Melaleuca, and yielded a 14C ‘age’ of about 37,500 years BP and a δ13CPDB value of –25.69 ‰ consistent with terrestrial plant organic carbon, and ruling out contamination.
_In the context of the Creation/Flood model of Earth history the fossilised wood is from trees which grew in the immediate post-Flood period. The decelerating Australian plate drifted over a mantle hotspot, a structural weakness in the crust allowing magma to erupt as basalt which engulfed the trees. The fossilised wood’s radiocarbon demonstrates the basalt’s youthfulness and the failure of radioisotopic ‘dating’, but is consistent with a Flood/immediate post-Flood stronger magnetic field.

COAL WAS FLOATING VEGETATION DEPOSITED DURING THE FLOOD
See Forests that grew on water [and became coal]
https://creation.com/forests-that-grew-on-water
_the vegetation which formed the Euro-American coals did not, and could not, have grown in place. In fact, the roots of these now-extinct trees3,4 were not growing in soil at all, but floating in water!
_The evidence that these coal forests grew on water:
1. Such a ‘radial’ root pattern is only found in water plants.
2. The trees were almost entirely hollow inside.
3. The roots and the rootlets were also hollow.
4. The appendices were designed to be cast off.
_Further evidence against the ‘slowly growing swamp with root-soil’ idea:
1. No rot in accompanying fossils.
2. Many evidences of high-energy sedimentation in these layers.
3. Fossilized stigmaria are found in too wide a range of rock types.
_such lycophyte trees would have had their roots intertwined, supporting each other while floating. Fallen leaves and debris would have been caught in this mat, providing a nutrient substrate for the ferns and other species now also found fossilized with these coals. Such a mat (later upon burial to become the coal seam) of living roots, fallen debris and living small plants, would have had substantial structural integrity, its flexibility resisting easy rupture. It would have been buoyant enough to support these ultralight hollow ‘tree’ trunks, aided by the many air-filled appendices twining through it (as shown by coal ball sections).6,7
[[COMMENT: Why did these abundant plants become extinct? Did the ocean waters become too salty?]]
See: The salinity of a floating forest
https://creation.com/the-salinity-of-a-floating-forest
_Fresh water will float on salt water if undisturbed. The extinct, Carboniferous floating forest described by Joachim Scheven would eliminate wind-and wave-driven mixing within and below the ‘mat’, stabilising a salinity gradient of fresh, dew fall water, on a salty sea. This would allow both salt-and fresh-water fauna to coexist in the ecosystem and would explain the mix of fauna found in the Carboniferous coal measures.
[[COMMENT: Looks like the Flood would have mixed ocean waters enough to kill the lycopods and lycophytes of the floating forests.]]

COAL IS UNDER 35,000 YEARS OLD
Radiocarbon in an ‘ancient’ fossil tree stump
https://creation.com/stumping-old-age-dogma
_... A fossilised tree stump was found by miners in the Newvale No. 2 (underground) Coal Mine north of Sydney, Australia....
_Small pieces of the coalified bark and the silicified wood immediately underneath it were sent for radiocarbon (14C) analyses to Geochron Laboratories in Cambridge, Boston (USA), a reputable, internationally-recognized commercial laboratory. The laboratory staff were not told exactly where the samples came from, or their supposed evolutionary age, to ensure that there would be no resultant bias. This laboratory uses the more sensitive accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) technique for radiocarbon analysis, now recognized as producing the most reliable results, even on minute quantities of carbon in samples.
_There was detectable radiocarbon in the coalified bark, yielding a supposed 14C ‘age’ of 33,700 ± 400 years BP (before present).
_However, a 33,700 ± 400 years BP radiocarbon ‘age’ for this fossilised tree stump is neither inconsistent nor unexpected. A stronger magnetic field before, and during, the Flood would have shielded the Earth more strongly from incoming cosmic rays,9 so there would have been much less radiocarbon in the atmosphere then, and thus much less in the vegetation. [The dating of 34,000 years BP would only apply, if the atmosphere were the same then as now, but if it had less 14C then, the dating would be younger.]

SOME OIL IS UNDER 5,000 YEARS OLD
How fast can oil form? by Andrew A. Snelling
https://creation.com/how-fast-can-oil-form
_[A] ‘natural refinery under the ocean’ is found under the waters of the Gulf of California, in an area known as the Guaymas Basin (see Fig. 1). Through this basin is a series of long deep fractures that link volcanoes of the undersea ridge known as the East Pacific Rise with the San Andreas fault system that runs northwards across California. The basin consists of two rift valleys (flat-bottomed valleys bounded by steep cliffs along fault lines), which are filled with 500 metre thick layers of sediments consisting of diatomaceous ooze (made up of the opal-like ‘shells’ of diatoms, single-celled aquatic plants related to algae) and silty mud washed from the nearby land.
_Along these fractures through the sediments in the basin flows boiling hot water at temperatures above 200°C, the result of deep-seated volcanic activity below the basin.
_The hydrothermal oil from the Guaymas Basin is similar to reservoir crude oils.9
_Other key analytical techniques on the oil give results that are compatible with a predominantly bacterial/algal origin of the organic matter that is the source of the oil and gas.10
_This oil and gas has probably formed by the action of hydrothermal processes on the organic matter within the diatomaceous ooze layers in the basin. Of crucial significance is the radiocarbon (C14 ) dating of the oil. Samples have yielded ages between 4,200 and 4,900 years, with uncertainties in the range 50–190 years.11

OLDEST TREE IS 4,700 YEARS OLD
Patriarchs of the forest, by Gary Bates
https://creation.com/patriarchs-of-the-forest
_Possibly the world’s oldest living1 organism [is] a Bristlecone Pine tree, ... [having an] estimated age (from counting the number of its tree rings) of 4,723 years.2

THE BIBLE DATES THE FLOOD TO 4,500 OR 5,200 YEARS AGO
Two date range options for Noah’s Flood, Brian Thomas
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j31 ... 20-127.pdf
_Finally, two bc date estimates for the Flood, include a Masoretic placement between 2518 and 2532 bc, and a Septuagint placement circa 3168 bc.

I RECKON A FEW THINGS
In this post I showed Tom Chetwynd's revised Bible Chronology
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =345#p3384
He gave:
_2850 B.C.: for the Rise of the Sumerian city states and Abraham's departure from Sumer.
Charles Chandler gave:
_3761 BC: for when the Sumerians began time-keeping.
_1380 BC: for when Abraham & Sarah were expelled from Egypt. He found evidence that certain Egyptian characters were Abraham and Sarah.
Gary Bates above gave:
_2700 BC: for the age of the oldest tree, which may date from shortly after the Great Flood.
I RECKON:
_2700 BC: was about the time of the end of the Great Flood and the time civilization began in Sumer.
_2200 BC: was about the time of the Younger Dryas cataclysm, when Venus & Mars became unstable. Venus was called Inana. I think the Sumerians saw Inana deposit venom [hydrocarbons?] on the land. (See https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1 )

Tom said:
_2700 B.C.: The Vizier Imhotep of Egypt was Joseph.
_2600-2200 B.C.: The Age of Pyramids was when the Israelites lived in the Nile delta of Egypt.
Charles said:
_1320 BC: was when Joseph was born. I don't see an explanation for that yet.
I RECKON:
_2700-2300 BC: was the Age of Machined Megaliths after the Great Flood and before the Younger Dryas cataclysm. The bases of one or more main pyramids has machined megaliths, so those were apparently likely built before YD and the pyramids were built on top of them after YD. There was advanced megalithic technology before YD, like at Tiahuanaco and many places, but apparently not after YD.
_2200-1600 BC: was the Age of Pyramids.

Tom said:
_2200 B.C.: was when The Old Kingdom in Egypt collapsed due to global cataclysms.
I RECKON:
_2300 BC: was the time of the collapse, just about the same as Tom's idea. Charles doesn't seem to cover that.

Tom said:
_2100 B.C.: there was Evidence of a freak occupation of the Negeb desert (which I think he considered to be the Israelites under Moses in the Wilderness).
_2050 B.C.: was the Canaan conquest (followed by Israelite settlement under the Judges).
Charles said:
_1312 BC: was The Main Exodus
_1288 BC: was the End of Main Exodus
I RECKON:
Tom may be right and the Bible may have events from different times conflated. The Pillar of Smoke and Fire of the Exodus and the killing of a Giant by David seem like events from earlier times, the YD cataclysm. But the characters may have lived later.

HORIZONTAL LANDSLIDES
I posted some excerpts on this at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/197/thread

[Lloyd]

25518

TREE-RING DATING INACCURACY
(I forgot to post this a couple days ago.)

14C dating—who is fooling whom?
https://creation.com/carbon-dating-fooling-whom

That article shows that the dating of the oldest tree to 4,700 some years ago, as mentioned in my previous post, is likely inaccurate. Each ring doesn't necessarily indicate one year. Sometimes 2 rings form in one year. So the oldest tree is likely somewhat younger than 4,700 years, so the Flood may have occurred after 2700 BC.

GOBEKLI TEPE

Search on Gobekli Tepe, Labyrinth
https://www.google.com/search?q=gobekli ... 66&bih=657

I noticed that Gobekli Tepe looks like a labyrinth, so I did a search and some articles indicate that it was indeed a labyrinth and a temple. The labyrinth dates probably from the time of the breakup of the Saturn System, when Venus or Saturn looked like a labyrinth. So that would have been during the Younger Dryas event, about 2300 BC, it seems.

UPDATE
DATING THE GREAT FLOOD BY ROCK STRATA
Can the relative timing of radioisotope dates be applied to biblical geology?
https://creation.com/can-the-relative-t ... al-geology
_What is the nature of Precambrian rocks?
_Baumgardner considers practically all Precambrian rocks as dating to the Creation Week. In addition to the problems cited above, the nature of the Precambrian rocks argues against their formation in the Creation Week by accelerated uniformitarian scenarios. There are many different lithologies that do not appear to fit into the Creation Week. These include: banded iron formations (BIFs) throughout the Precambrian,27 carbonates, dolomites, salt, gypsum, and chert.
_Many of these are found during the Paleozoic, which suggests a common source in the Flood. Even unusual Phanerozoic Flood rocks are found in the Precambrian.27 Black shale, containing 3–15% organic carbon, is found in both.31
_It is possible that these imprints are not from rain but from water or fluid escape.
Why would high organic shale be deposited during Creation Week, especially before the end of Day 3 in Baumgardner’s scheme? Quartz arenite is another unusual type found in both Precambrian and Phanerozoic sections. It is almost pure quartz sandstone, with greater than 95% quartz, that is very well sorted and highly rounded.31
_It likely formed by intense turbulence over large areas, the kind of action one would expect very early in the Flood. Quartz arenite in the late Precambrian and early Paleozoic suggests that the lower Flood boundary is well down in the Precambrian. Phosphate rich rocks are another type found in both eons,27 even straddling the Precambrian/Cambrian boundary.32 This also suggests the basal Cambrian is not the beginning of the Flood. Raindrop imprints provide strong evidence that Precambrian sedimentary and metasedimentary rocks are from the Flood. They occur in the Precambrian in the Uinta Mountains33, India34, Norway35, and South Africa.36
_Some of these locations have multiple stratigraphic levels of raindrop imprints. One such site is the late Archean Ventersdorp Supergroup, conventionally dated at 2,700 Ma, before the end of Day 3 in both Snelling’s and Baumgardner’s relative dating scheme. It is possible that these imprints are not from rain but from water or fluid escape. However, the size distribution of the Archean raindrop imprints in South Africa (figure 6) has recently been favourably compared to raindrop imprints today and from experiments of falling water drops of known sizes and fall velocities.37,38 So, as seen from figure 6, the marks are likely real raindrop imprints and not escape structures.
_Since rain did not fall at least until after man was created (Genesis 2:5, 6) and some even speculate until the Flood,39 raindrop imprints indicate that the sediments were laid down after the Creation Week. Since many Precambrian sedimentary rocks were deposited in deep troughs or basins in significant thicknesses, it is unlikely that they date before the Flood, since the antediluvian is considered a time of benign geological activity.7 If so, even the late Archean sedimentary rocks represent Flood deposition.
[[COMMENT: As Cardona suggested, I think there was no "Creation Week", but a "Re-creation" Event. I mean the so-called Creation was actually the end of a prior cataclysm. Since I recently posted on the Earth, i.e. Earth's continents and former supercontinent, being only 6,000 or so years old, I'm wondering if the supercontinent could have formed that recently (from an asteroid soft-landing). If so, I don't know where humans, animals, plants etc would have come from, unless maybe Mars etc. But I don't know how they would have landed on Earth. I think those who said in the Bible "Let us create man" etc may have been angels, i.e. angels of God, where God would mean universal consciousness or something.]]

[Lloyd]

25787

NORTH POLE TO THE SATURN SYSTEM?

ANCIENT MAPS ARE REAL?
[[COMMENT: I stated some months ago here that Ginenthal's article on Ancient Maps seemed to be fraudulent, since some of the maps do not show Antarctica at all, but only the bottom of South America etc. The following, however, suggests that the maps truly are ancient, even though they likely do not show Antarctica.]]

Old World Maps - - A Response to Charles Ginenthal [The Velikovskian] Vol 2 No 2 (1994) Norman Schwarz
_Charles Ginenthal's article, "Common Sense About Ancient Maps", in Vol. 1, No. 2 of The Velikovskian adduced evidence that various Renaissance and earlier world maps were really the product of an old, but historical civilization that went back to a time before the present polar ice reformed.
_Charles Hapgood presented clear evidence of three former north poles before our present one at 90 N. (2) Moving back from the present, they are: A) Hudson Bay (60 N, 83 W), B) Greenland Sea (73 N, 10 E) and C) Yukon (63 N, 135 W). In an earlier essay, I offered geographic evidence for two more former north poles to go along with the Hapgood list. (3) Including these poles, the list would be:
A) Hudson Bay (63 N, 83 W),
D) Off N.E. Brazil (0, 37.72 W),
X) Siberia (55.67 N, 52.28 E),
B) Greenland Sea (73 N, 10 E) and
C) Yukon (63 N, 135 W).
[[COMMENT: Below, the author indicates that the Babylonians showed the North Pole at 56.35 N, 52.28 E. (nearly 500 miles east of Moscow, Russia). That then would have been the most recent pole position. But, since the supercontinent likely broke up near the end of the Great Flood, around 4,700 years ago, the list of former polar positions is likely wrong. However, the Babylonian polar position may be correct, as it would have been hundreds of years after the Flood. I don't know what to make of that offhand, though, since it would mean that the pole has changed since the time of the Babylonians, which seems unlikely, or it was the position of the Saturn System above the Earth, which wouldn't work either, since the Saturn System could not have appeared above one spot on Earth if Earth was rotating, as it surely was. So why would the Babylonians have placed the North Pole there? Following is the author's explanation for determining the position.]]
_Researchers into ancient history have shown that the Babylonians correctly measured the length of one degree of longitude millenni[a] before the chronometer was invented. (4)
_Hapgood illustrates many old maps. The World Map of Ptolemy has its 90 longitude line through the eastern tip of the Arabian peninsula. (5)
_Ninety degrees west of this line is the present 38 west longitude which was used, in the Papal Bull Inter Caetera of May 4, 1493, to delimit the Spanish and Portuguese division of the Earth. (6) Christopher Columbus returned to Spain on March 15, 1493, so the principals to the agreement (Portugal, Spain, the Vatican) had only seven weeks to arrive at an understanding. They must have had a reliable map of the world (at least the 180 degrees from Brazil to Japan) that everyone trusted. And if they started to negotiate before Columbus got back, the point is even more valid.
_The 90 [degree] meridian is at the same place (through the eastern tip of the Arabian peninsula), though the degree numbering has been reversed on the Robert Thorne map of 1525. (7)
_The Bordone map of 1528 indicates this same meridian of longitude, in the center of the figure, at the diagonal crossing. (8)
_The center line of the Oronteus Finaeus map of 1532 is the same meridian through the eastern tip of the Arabian peninsula. (9)
_Mercator's World Map of 1538 shows this same line as the horizontal division of the two hemispheres. (10)
_One of the more amazing indications of this meridian (through the eastern tip of the Arabian peninsula) is on the Reimal map, where it is identified as the "Prime Meridian of [the?] Portuguese Map." (11)
_If true Christians had made these maps (originally), the center (Prime Meridian) would have been through Rome, like on the Ben Zara map of 1487. (12) If Jews had made them, the Prime Meridian would have been through Jerusalem; and if Moslems had made them, the Prime Meridian would have been through either Mecca or Medina. As they stand, the Prime Meridian goes through the Indian Ocean and 90 W is through the middle of the Atlantic Ocean!
_For everyone, ever since the time of the Babylonians, the Zero of Longitude was an abstract; for the Babylonians, it was a matter of geography. The Babylonians put their Prime Meridian (call it the First Meridian - - F. M.) through the present North Pole and the location where the gods had resided in the North. That point is North Pole X (NPX), located on our present grid at 56.35 N, 52.28 E. [[NOTE: That's nearly 500 miles east of Moscow in Russia.]]

Regarding DATING THE GREAT FLOOD BY ROCK STRATA in the previous post, if the "Creation Week" in the Bible was actually a cataclysmic event prior to the Great Flood, some precambrian strata etc could date from that prior event, instead of from the Flood event itself. Here's a world map of precambrian rock formations: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/61/c7/0c ... 18615e.jpg . A lot of it is said to be metamorphic. Hopefully, we'll eventually find ways to date it and see if it occurred before the Great Flood, or during it, as the author previously suggested.

[Brigit]

Regarding DATING THE GREAT FLOOD BY ROCK STRATA in the previous post, if the "Creation Week" in the Bible was actually a cataclysmic event prior to the Great Flood, some precambrian strata etc could date from that prior event, instead of from the Flood event itself. Here's a world map of precambrian rock formations: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/61/c7/0c ... 18615e.jpg . A lot of it is said to be metamorphic. Hopefully, we'll eventually find ways to date it and see if it occurred before the Great Flood, or during it, as the author previously suggested.

catastrophism subtopic: the worldwide deluge and the founding of the Sumerian cities

I love that sentiment, that hopefully, we'll eventually find ways to date these strata. But the real challenge is the work of understanding how the strata were laid down. In my view, the waters of the flood could not have laid down the stratigraphy of the earth alone. Nor could massive interplanetary thunderbolts have sculpted the landscape alone. But the riches of the earth in minerals, ores, gems and fossils is extraordinary, and could only have come about through the forces of both water and electric arcs acting on the dust of the earth. And how would anyone begin the task of dating such a process as the electrical sculpting of the earth?

[Brigit]

by Lloyd » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:19 am

Regarding DATING THE GREAT FLOOD BY ROCK STRATA in the previous post, if the "Creation Week" in the Bible was actually a cataclysmic event prior to the Great Flood, some precambrian strata etc could date from that prior event, instead of from the Flood event itself.

Catastrophism subtopic: a catastrophic event in Gen 1:2 followed by regeneration; the Biblical date of the second cataclysmic flood in Gen 6

We have discussed the Gap Theory and whether it was consistent with the text of Genesis, and with the rest of the Old Testament, and with the New Testament. Although it is a minority view, I think the catastrophic one is a legitimate interpretation of Genesis 1:2.

It is possible for people who are committed to the truth of the events related in Scripture -- but especially in Genesis 1-11 -- to believe that the entire Universe is of unknown age and extent. We still affirm that it was spoken into existence through the forethought, love, purposes and wisdom of God.

Then, the events after the cataclysm of Gen 1:2 begin a human timeline for world history. And, although chapters 1-11 are very brief, these relate selected events before 2000 BC. These chapters not only relate a physical history, they also introduce the deepest and most important spiritual themes which unfold in the rest of history. (For example, What is a person? Why man and woman? Why is there evil? Why do we have to work so hard? What went so wrong in the earliest cities? etc etc)

There are two different dates for the global deluge. The reason is that there are different numbers given in the Masoretic Text and the Septuagint, plus Josephus. I am persuaded that the correct date of the Second Deluge of Gen 6 was +-3300 BC following the Septuagint and mentioned by Josephus.

Does this mean that the Masoretic text is wrong? Does this mean it has been edited for a political reason? Does this mean it is not reliable?

Let me suggest something. Although there is a difference of about 5 centuries between the MT and the LXX, it is possible that the way that a single year was counted could have gone through a huge transition. This is one way that one text could lead to this very late date of 2700+-, and another equally valid text could lead to the Primitive Chronology of the Deluge, c. 3200 BC.

If the earth had previously been a satellite of a brown dwarf, or if earth was once a satellite of binary brown dwarf stars**, then the reckoning of a year would have been different than the later era, when earth became a planet in the Sun's system of orbiting companions. But either way, there was from the beginning a way of marking the passage of time by using the movement of the bodies in the sky, according to the text.

[Brigit]

Catastrophism subtopic: the Sumerian cities of the plain and Genesis 10

After the Deluge (and the appearance of a rainbow from the refraction of sunlight into a spectrum, probably not seen before), and after the Table of Nations, Genesis 10 picks up with several verses about the cities in the plain of Shinar.

• 6 The sons of Ham were Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. 7 The sons of Cush were Seba, Havilah, Sabtah, Raamah, and Sabtechah; and the sons of Raamah were Sheba and Dedan.
  
  8 Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. 9 He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, “Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord.” 10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel, Erech, Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar. 11 From that land he went to Assyria and built Nineveh, Rehoboth Ir, Calah, 12 and Resen between Nineveh and Calah (that is the principal city).

These cities, unknown to the Modern Age, have since been identified and excavated. Most of them. They are the cities of Sumer.
Uruch = Uruk (also, Iraq!) and Accad = Agade and Babel = Babel (there are many) and in Nineveh, Ur, Calah and Resen in the Bible are Ur, Kullah, and Isin.

Studying them is nothing short of fascinating. Is it possible that this represents the era when people all spoke a single language?

The text continues with the disruption of human language, or the loss of an original shared language. How could this have happened?

Velikovsky published an amazing hypothesis relating to the confusion of languages. He of course included many more mentions within myths and legends of a time when there was one language. Then he said,

[Brigit]

Catastrophism subtopic: Velikovsky on the potential neurological effects of an interplanetary bolt

It appears that after the Flood the plain of Mesopotamia became one of the few cultural centers of the world. Another flood would have caused the utter destruction of the human race, and this was feared because the memory of the Flood a few centuries earlier was very vivid. Observations of the movements of the heavenly bodies may have provided a warning of a new catastrophe and large structures were built for refuge. But when the event came, the structures were overwhelmed and destroyed by hurricanes and powerful electrical discharges.

In the rabbinical concept of the seven earths, molded one out of another in successive catastrophes, the generation which built the Tower of Babel inhabited the fourth earth; but it goes on to the fifth earth where the men become oblivious of their origin and home:(17) those who built the Tower of Babel are told to forget their language. This generation is called “the people who lost their memory.” The earth which they inhabited was “the fifth earth, that of oblivion (Neshiah)(18)

In the ancient Mexican traditions it is told that those who survived the catastrophe of the “sun of wind” lost “their reason and speech.” (19)

The characteristic of this catastrophe was its influence upon the mental, or mnemonic, capacity of the peoples. The description of it, as told by many tribes and peoples, if it contains authentic features, arouses the surmise that the earth underwent an electromagnetic disturbance, and that the human race experienced something that in modern terms seems like a consequence of a deep electrical shock.

The application of electrical current to the head of a human being often results in a partial loss of memory; also a loss of speech may be induced by the application of electrodes to specific areas of the brain.(20)

[Brigit]

catastrophism subtopic: what we really fear

In every case, the worst global cataclysms, which more and more appear to coincide with electrical exchanges between planets, were mentioned alongside the corruption of the cities. The Deluge follows a description of the Cities of Cain; the Dispersion of the Families and Languages is related directly to the bloody unification of the Cities of Shinar by Nimrod; and the destruction of the five cities of the plain follow a description of Sodom and Gomorrah.

But there's more. These are not the only Cataclysms in the Scriptures. The other global catastrophes are the World Empires, that is, the Empires of Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome. An entire segment of the Bible is devoted to describing the destruction to be caused by these. Biblically, the most terrifying was the Roman Empire. And what the psychoanalysts might be missing is that these are just as bad or worse than the natural disasters. A perfectly acceptable psychological prognosis must include the trauma of independent nations having been invaded and nearly erased by these world empires, one after the other.

Let's test to see if this might be the case.

With the psychoanalyst, let's assume that the trauma of past events lingers, and is expressed in spiritual/religious traditions. Let's examine a projected future event, yet to be fulfilled, that is reportedly the culmination of the ages of history, according to the spiritual tradition:

• 1 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
  
  13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who was wounded by the sword and lived. 15 He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

• 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads, 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Now that is scary. That is what we don't want to happen.

[Lloyd]

26014

GREAT FLOOD & PRE-FLOOD STRATA

World map with terranes of Precambrian, Archean and Proterozoic crust
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/--RJOXLKu_y0/U ... colors.jpg
Dark areas are Archean crust: unshaded with numbers. Proterozoic crust: shaded lines in areas either under ice or preventing direct access. Phanerozoic orogenic [mountain] belts: dot pattern. Proterozoic terranes are divided into three categories: 1 (confirmed), 2 (incomplete analysis) and 3 (exposed but unconfirmed).
Modified from Proterozoic Crustal Evolution by K.C. Condie, 1992.
http://written-in-stone-seen-through-my ... l?spref=pi
(Map is over halfway down the page.)

GREAT UNCONFORMITY

The Great Unconformity seems to be a possible boundary between Flood and Pre-flood strata. That's what the map above shows, i.e. locations of strata below the Unconformity. In the Grand Canyon the Unconformity is fairly level, but the strata below it are at an angle and are cut off by the Unconformity. Apparently the precambrian strata were laid down, then an earthquake or other seismic event caused the strata to drop on one side. Then the Flood eroded the high parts by sheet erosion, leaving a level surface again. I don't know if that could have happened everywhere where there is the Great Unconformity. Geologic cross-sections seem to show only the Grand Canyon Unconformity. Actually, the Unconformity seems to be only a boundary between an early phase of the Flood and a successive stage, because the strata that were eroded were likely still soft, because otherwise the Flood would not likely have been able to plane the tilted strata smoothly. So it looks like I haven't yet found evidence for the Creation cataclysm. Cardona figured that Let there be light, etc in the Bible indicated a Saturn Flare-up, if I understand him.

BIBLICAL CATACLYSMS

Brigit mentioned some or all of them. 1. "Creation"; 2. Great Flood; 3. Tower of Babel event; 4. Sodom and Gomorrah event. To that I add the Younger Dryas event, which may be the same as the Flood event. I mean the Septuagint and Masoretic versions may have dated two different Floods, the Great Flood of 3200 BC and the Younger Dryas Flood of 2500 BC. I think very little is left of civilization remains from before the Great Flood. I think Advanced Megalithic construction was from the centuries after the Great Flood, when Saturn was still present and caused weak gravity on Earth so heavy objects weren't nearly as heavy and people may have been larger. After Saturn left our immediate sky during the Younger Dryas Flood/event smaller stone structures were built often on top of advanced megalithic structures.

[Lloyd]

26186

TOWER OF BABEL

I just realized that the Tower of Babel incident was likely a late retelling of the breakup of the Saturn configuration, so it occurred during the Younger Dryas event, according to my recent findings. The tower was also seen by the ancients as a stairway to heaven, which meant it appeared to connect to the Saturn configuration. So the tower was also the polar column. When Saturn left the configuration, the column fell and released a flood of water that had been suspended within the column for centuries, according to Cardona. The tower, stairway, or column fell. The story of Samson may have referred to the same event, although it speaks of two pillars. Jack and the beanstalk is also the same story, I think.

Catastrophism.com has a lot of articles that discuss the
_Tower of Babel. See https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1
_For Samson and the pillars, see https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1
_For Jack and the beanstalk, see https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1

[JP Michael]

Alrighty, now that my essays are done for the year it's time to return to this thread.

I just realized that the Tower of Babel incident was likely a late retelling of the breakup of the Saturn configuration, so it occurred during the Younger Dryas event, according to my recent findings. The tower was also seen by the ancients as a stairway to heaven, which meant it appeared to connect to the Saturn configuration. So the tower was also the polar column. When Saturn left the configuration, the column fell and released a flood of water that had been suspended within the column for centuries, according to Cardona. The tower, stairway, or column fell. The story of Samson may have referred to the same event, although it speaks of two pillars. Jack and the beanstalk is also the same story, I think.

This quote introduces an extremely troublesome epistomology and exegetical methodology, Lloyd.

When I open to Genesis 11 and the Tower of Babel incident, I read the following (English Standard Version [ESV]):

Now the whole earth had one language and the same words. And as people migrated from the east, they found a plain in the land of Shinar and settled there. And they said to one another, “Come, let us make bricks, and burn them thoroughly.” And they had brick for stone, and bitumen for mortar. Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a name for ourselves, lest we be dispersed over the face of the whole earth.” 
And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of man had built. 
And the LORD said, “Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language, and this is only the beginning of what they will do. And nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them. Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.” So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city. 
Therefore its name was called Babel, because there the LORD confused the language of all the earth. And from there the LORD dispersed them over the face of all the earth. (Genesis 11:1-9)

Notice the repeated concrete depiction of the scene: people migrated, found a plain, settled, built a city of brick and mortar, and built a tower of the same. YHWH 'came down' (I will comment on this shortly), confused their language and dispersed them across the world.

Could you please specify which part of this narrative is referring to the axis mundi, and the criteria by which you arrived at that conclusion?
Could you please specify why 'brick' and 'mortar' and 'city' and 'tower', etc, do not mean 'brick' and 'mortar' and 'city' and 'tower' but supposedly mean 'plasma column', 'birkeland currents', 'stairway to heaven' etc?
Could you please specify other internal (to Scripture) or external evidence of 'confusion of language' and 'dispersal across the earth' occuring at the same time as the supposed collapse of the axis mundi?
Could you please specify other internal (to Scripture) or external evidence of a watery cataclysm that took place at this time resulting in the confusion of human languages and their dispersal across the world?
Could you please explicate your criteria or methodology by which you decide which portions of the biblical text are historical narrative (like how you determine that the world is 6,000 to 10,000 years old, a YEC position) and which portions are "late retellings" of earlier incidents (I presume you might rather mean 'mythological' narrative)?

The only portion of this narrative which is of any use to your argument is the vague and inconclusive "YHWH came down to see the city and the tower which men had built."

If men built the city and the tower, how can it have been an unmade-by-human-hands plasma polar column? And if you say that the latter is what it 'really' means, on what basis do you conclude this? For it will only expose your epistomology and exegetical methodology as a pick-and-choose absurdity, and interpretation of the Bible becomes an impossibility, excepting whatever I (or you) feel like we want it to mean at the time.

Could you also explain the same of the Samson incident (Judges 16:3):
*By what criteria do you decide which portions of the Bible are historical narrative and what is mythological narrative?
*By what criteria do you suppose the references to "the doors of the gate of the city and the two posts, bar and all" refer to the plasma polar column(s) and not to the doors of the gate of Gaza city, posts and bar and all?

How do you know the world is 6,000 years young when your epistemology can simply decide, with no rationale or justification, that certain portions of biblical history are talking about mythological (= 'made-up' later? Poorly reconstructed ex eventu?) events, but other portions of history are talking about actual (=reliable?) history? On what basis do you conclude the chronogenealogies of Gen. 5 or 1 Chronicles 1-9 are not made up mythologies and can therefore be utilised to reliably date the age of the universe?

etc.