Shine On

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jacmac
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Shine On

Unread post by jacmac » Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:46 pm

From the Shine On POTD from June 19, 2020 by Stephen Smith
the Sun’s heliospheric boundary is a double layer “cocoon”, isolating it from galactic plasmas flowing through the Interstellar Medium. Voltage differences occur within the heliosphere, so the Sun experiences charge/discharge phenomena related to variable electrical input from the Milky Way. Therefore, sunspots and flares most likely derive from changes in its electrical supply, indicating variable input from its galactic circuit.
I am in agreement with the above but would like to speak about the other DOUBLE LAYER in our solar system; our sun itself.
Dr Scott in his book The Electric Sky describes a double layer in the chromosphere.
Page 91:
This chromospheric layer is approximately 2000 km wide(high) It contains a plasma double layer(DL).
And again, see in his summery notes on The Electronic Sun:
https://electric-cosmos.org/Electronic%20Sun.pdf
Figure 2.

Our sun is basically a double layered plasma structure.
The double layer(DL) in the chromosphere separates the two main plasma areas.
The top of the inner plasma is the photosphere.
Above the chromosphere, the outer plasma is the corona.

For some reason the EU community has not focused on this.
No one has said: "The chromosphere IS the double layer(DL) in the sun."
Also, we have not found, in any detail, the solar electric "circuit" beyond general statements
about the anode (or cathode?) sun discharging to the heliospheric boundary.

I have found it hard to follow the discussion in Ralph Juergens 1979 paper here:
https://www.kronos-press.com/juergens/1 ... ergens.pdf
He speaks of a plasma sheath at the anode, but under the tufts and many other details, but I get lost.

Plasma forms double layers.
How do these things work ?
comments...
Jack

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paladin17
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by paladin17 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 4:14 pm

jacmac wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 9:46 pm
From the Shine On POTD from June 19, 2020 by Stephen Smith
the Sun’s heliospheric boundary is a double layer “cocoon”, isolating it from galactic plasmas flowing through the Interstellar Medium. Voltage differences occur within the heliosphere, so the Sun experiences charge/discharge phenomena related to variable electrical input
I find it quite amusing that Smith gives these two contradicting statements and doesn't even notice it. It may indicate a certain lack of critical thinking. Or a poorly developed model. Or both.
(The statements being: 1) there is a double layer around the heliosphere, so it is isolated from Galactic plasma; 2) the Sun is controlled by the input from Galactic plasma).

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Brigit
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by Brigit » Fri Jun 26, 2020 8:41 pm

by jacmac » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:46 pm
Our sun is basically a double layered plasma structure.
The double layer(DL) in the chromosphere separates the two main plasma areas.
The top of the inner plasma is the photosphere.
Above the chromosphere, the outer plasma is the corona.

For some reason the EU community has not focused on this.
No one has said: "The chromosphere IS the double layer(DL) in the sun."
In my view, the plasma double layers surrounding the sun are nested. The heliosheath, which separates the sun's plasma environment from the interstellar magnetic field, is the most important one.

The evidence of the presence of a plasma double layer is accelerated particles.
A double layer is a structure in a plasma and consists of two parallel layers with opposite electrical charge. The sheets of charge cause a strong electric field and a correspondingly sharp change in voltage (electrical potential) across the double layer. Ions and electrons which enter the double layer are accelerated, decelerated, or reflected by the electric field.
~plasma-universe
This means that the heliosheath/double layer accelerates, decelerates or reflects the charged particles it encounters as it moves through the Galaxy.

The two main implications of this are that some of the solar wind that reaches the heliosheath is accelerated, and this is a source of Cosmic Rays on the other side. The double layer sheaths surrounding other stars would also be sources of Cosmic Rays by the same mechanism.

The second function of the heliosheath is that it scavenges up charged particles and these begin their journey to power the Electric Sun. In Stephen Smith's case it is collecting the electrons which constantly drift in a radial field towards the anode sun.

But I think you are right to say that there is evidence of a double layer or two closer in. Look at the transition region of the sun.

graph:
http://solar.physics.montana.edu/YPOP/S ... sgraph.gif

That sudden change in temperature may indicate the presence of a double layer, accelerating those ions in and out. Earth has a similar change in temperature in its upper atmosphere, along with several other boundary layers which are electrical in nature. (In fact there are temperature inversion layers everywhere you look.)

When the article "Shine On" uses the word "isolating" it is understood as modifying, but not canceling, the plasma double sheath, which by definition accelerates ions; it cannot be understood as shielding ions or isolating the sun from charged particles outside the sheath.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

jacmac
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by jacmac » Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:45 pm

Brigit:
When the article "Shine On" uses the word "isolating" it is understood as modifying, but not canceling, the plasma double sheath, which by definition accelerates ions; it cannot be understood as shielding ions or isolating the sun from charged particles outside the sheath.
I agree with that Brigit.
To me the chromosphere double layer is efficient enough to separate the photosphere from the lower corona, and
inefficient enough to allow replacement current through the layers to supply the solar power.
Also, I think there is an induction action happening between the granules and the "flux rope" sections of the lower corona that
extend out in the solar wind.
This paper
discusses the solar wind structures and suggests a connection to the granules.


paladin17:
I find it quite amusing that Smith gives these two contradicting statements and doesn't even notice it. It may indicate a certain lack of critical thinking. Or a poorly developed model. Or both.
(The statements being: 1) there is a double layer around the heliosphere, so it is isolated from Galactic plasma; 2) the Sun is controlled by the input from Galactic plasma).
Yes. I think the model of a " sun discharging to the heliosheath" is vague or underdeveloped.
Also, it overshadows the chromospheric double layer.
I would say, in response to Brigit above, that both double layers, at the heliosheath and the chromosphere, are equally important.
One allows passage of charged particles from the Intergalactic Medium, while being isolating enough to form the solar system, and the other
creates our sun itself.
Jack

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nick c
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by nick c » Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:41 pm

The TPoD in question:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2020/06/19/shine-on/

paladin17 wrote:(The statements being: 1) there is a double layer around the heliosphere, so it is isolated from Galactic plasma; 2) the Sun is controlled by the input from Galactic plasma).
It is obvious to me that Steve Smith is assuming that it is understood that the word "isolated" is not total and complete. Perhaps "insulated" would be better, but then one of the definitions for that has an electrical implication.

example:
I (the Sun) am sitting in my house (the heliosphere) and am isolated from the outdoors (the interstellar medium). Sure its nice and warm in my living room and its snowing and cold outdoors, but while I am isolated from that environment the isolation is not complete. The environment in my house is still affected by the conditions outside.

Another example:
Fiji, by its location, is isolated from the rest of the world but they certainly are affected in some way by many world events.

an analogous situation:
The Earth's magnetic field isolates/insulates the planet from the Solar Wind, but that isolation is not complete, witness the aurora, red sprites, and more. But if the Earth did not have the protection of its magnetic field the planet would be directly scoured by the Solar Wind.

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Re: Shine On

Unread post by paladin17 » Sat Jun 27, 2020 7:20 pm

nick c wrote:
Sat Jun 27, 2020 6:41 pm
The TPoD in question:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2020/06/19/shine-on/

paladin17 wrote:(The statements being: 1) there is a double layer around the heliosphere, so it is isolated from Galactic plasma; 2) the Sun is controlled by the input from Galactic plasma).
It is obvious to me that Steve Smith is assuming that it is understood that the word "isolated" is not total and complete. Perhaps "insulated" would be better, but then one of the definitions for that has an electrical implication.

example:
I (the Sun) am sitting in my house (the heliosphere) and am isolated from the outdoors (the interstellar medium). Sure its nice and warm in my living room and its snowing and cold outdoors, but while I am isolated from that environment the isolation is not complete. The environment in my house is still affected by the conditions outside.
It still makes the point (about double layers) invalid. There is either no isolation (so the Sun can be controlled by external input) or no external input to control the Sun.

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nick c
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by nick c » Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:33 pm

Eugene,
So are you taking the position that the fact that there are Chromospheric DLs, which is inside of the double layer at the heliopause; that is evidence that the Sun cannot be externally powered? Do you consider this a falsification of the theory of an externally powered Sun?

If falsification of the theory is as simple as that then we should be able to move on. If so, I would be curious if you have had any discussion about this with Scott or Thornhill?

My interest here is in learning. I am not a plasma physicist and I do appreciate your contributions to the various discussions on this forum.

It seems to me, that double layers are a characteristic of plasmas. So since the Sun is a plasma and is immersed in a larger plasma (the heliosphere) which is in turn is immersed in the interstellar plasma; why would not there be double layers (albeit at different scales) associated within each of these plasma bubbles? Double layers are everywhere in the cosmos. Aren't there DL's associated with most of the planets too? If I am not mistaken, Alfven considered them to be a type of celestial object.

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Brigit
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by Brigit » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:19 am

Interesting pdf link jacmac.

In it the authors have developed Magnetohydrodynamic models of flux tube structures in the solar wind, which are in turn linked to the sun's granular surface, as jacmac summarized.

They use this model to find a "statistical association between discontinuities and reconnection":
"Such small scale structures are candidates to be active sites of magnetic reconnection. Indeed, reconnection locally occurs relatively frequently at these thin current sheets" -- meaning the flux tubes.
But in Plasma Cosmology and the Electric Universe, the lines of magnetic fields do not break or reconnect. When conventional astronomers see "magnetic reconnection," "they're looking at well-understood plasma phenomena, exploding double layers and electric discharge, not magnetic reconnection."

Exploding double layers are the source of the electromagnetic radiation and relativistic electrons of solar flares, as pointed out so often in POTDs. Including Shine On! And I think the SAFIRE experiment shows plasma may organize itself into more discreet nested shells of plasma regions than we even need for our discussion right now. (:
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
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Brigit
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by Brigit » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:33 am

In my last post on exploding double layers, I found this POTD which describes the basic structures we are talking about.
The Sun’s surface is known as the photosphere. Above that surface layer is the chromosphere, and above that is the corona, the outermost part of the Sun’s visible atmosphere. The photosphere averages 6000 Celsius, while the corona can be as much as two million Celsius! This is the great mystery that has encumbered researchers. How is it that the hottest region of the Sun begins at an altitude of 4000 kilometers and extends over a million kilometers from its surface without any significant temperature drop? Based on the thermonuclear fusion model, as distance from the surface increases the temperature should decrease. It is a matter of simple thermal emission mechanics: temperature decreases with the square of the distance.
Before IRIS was launched, some research groups thought that the temperature increase comes from the “rearrangement of magnetic field lines”, otherwise known as “magnetic reconnection”. SOHO and TRACE satellite observations see small, rapidly changing magnetic regions on the Sun’s surface, so it was suggested that “reconnection events” within those fluctuating fields continuously heat the solar corona. However, as Electric Universe advocate Professor Donald Scott has repeatedly stressed, no one has ever observed magnetic field lines “reconnecting” and no one ever will.
Plasma discharge behavior is a better model for solar activity. Laboratory experiments with a positively charged sphere show that a plasma torus forms above its equator. Electric discharges bridge the torus with the middle and lower latitudes of the sphere. [A reference to sunspots.]
Spicules are consistent with the principle of “anode tufting,” a plasma discharge effect expected of a positively charged electric Sun. The mini-tornadoes observed by IRIS in the chromosphere are spicules.
The Sun’s chromosphere is a plasma sheath, or double layer region of the Sun, where most of its electrical energy is contained. When the current flowing into the Sun’s plasma sheath increases beyond a critical threshold it can also trigger a sudden release of that energy, causing solar flares and gigantic prominence eruptions.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2014/1 ... ging-view/
Stephen Smith, Oct 2014
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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paladin17
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by paladin17 » Mon Jun 29, 2020 2:55 pm

nick c wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 4:33 pm
Eugene,
So are you taking the position that the fact that there are Chromospheric DLs, which is inside of the double layer at the heliopause; that is evidence that the Sun cannot be externally powered? Do you consider this a falsification of the theory of an externally powered Sun?
I am simply saying that Smith's logic in the quoted paragraph is invalid.

jacmac
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by jacmac » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:10 pm

From the Picture of the Day archive: found by Brigit:
Thanks Brigit.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2014/1 ... ging-view/
Stephen Smith says:
The Sun’s chromosphere is a plasma sheath, or double layer region of the Sun, where most of its electrical energy is contained. When the current flowing into the Sun’s plasma sheath increases beyond a critical threshold it can also trigger a sudden release of that energy, causing solar flares and gigantic prominence eruptions.
From the July 19 2020, Picture of the Day: Shine On
Stephen Smith says:
Sun’s heliospheric boundary is a double layer “cocoon”, isolating it from galactic plasmas flowing through the Interstellar Medium. Voltage differences occur within the heliosphere, so the Sun experiences charge/discharge phenomena related to variable electrical input from the Milky Way. Therefore, sunspots and flares most likely derive from changes in its electrical supply, indicating variable input from its galactic circuit.
For his own reasons Mr Smith does not restate, from seven years earlier, that the chromosphere is a double layer.

This is the reason for my first post here.
With a few exceptions mentioned, and others I have missed ?, the EU community does not discuss
THE SUN AS A DOUBLE LAYER.
The language used is electric discharge; and usually indicating a discharge to the heliosphere.
I am trying to encourage more attention onto double layers themselves; what, when, how, etc.

nick c:
My interest here is in learning. I am not a plasma physicist and
I do appreciate your(Eugene) contributions to the various discussions on this forum.
Jack

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Brigit
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by Brigit » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:11 am

by jacmac » Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:10 pm
For his own reasons Mr Smith does not restate, from seven years earlier, that the chromosphere is a double layer.

This is the reason for my first post here.
With a few exceptions mentioned, and others I have missed ?, the EU community does not discuss
THE SUN AS A DOUBLE LAYER.
I see your point.

Maybe part of the problem is that we have such a lot of publications by the EU that it is getting harder to remember where any particular subject is covered -- esp. with the number of Space News features and Conferences, which are verbal presentations.

But I think that one of the primary problems with astronomy is that the solar wind picks up speed as it leaves the sun. "How do you accelerate a charged particle? Put it in an electric field." (Who doesn't remember the first time hearing Don Scott say this?) (: The solar wind increasing in speed as it travels further out into the inner solar system is a natural consequence of an electric sun. This has always been pointed out by the Electric Universe. Double layers have a strong efield between them which accelerates particles. The last double layer is the heliosheath, at the boundary of the interstellar medium.

I will try to get some primary quotes from the books posted on this thread. In the meantime, there are some nice lectures by Don Scott which give very detailed explanation of potential differences experienced by the charged particles coming and going from the sun. He often uses very concrete images, such as water going over dams, to illustrate the motions of the ion traffic around the sun. When the acceleration of particles stops far above the sun, the random motion of the protons commences and is Brownian motion, which is manifested as heat. It is like the white, chaotic water at the bottom of a waterfall. I will link the talk too.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Brigit
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by Brigit » Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:29 am

Don Scott: The Electric Solar Wind
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFGb7NlUvgg&t=183s
Dur. 52:31

Beautiful discussion of SAFIRE observations included.

PS, Using the tool icon on the video, playback speed can be set at 1.25.
I listen to almost everything else at 1.5 to save a little time. You all probably know that setting already. :D
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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paladin17
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by paladin17 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 3:46 pm

Current theories on solar wind acceleration indeed include electric field - the one produced by supra-thermal (strahl) electrons emanating from the Sun and attracting slower thermal protons towards them.
The way this population of electrons is produced is not yet completely clear. One good possibility is that they may be created by Dreicer mechanism (production of runaway electrons by a parallel electric field) in a current-free double layer e.g. somewhere in the chromosphere or slightly above. Such a double layer would form anyway simply due to ambipolar diffusion.

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Solar
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Re: Shine On

Unread post by Solar » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:58 pm

Although it can be said (on the one hand) that the heliosphere “isolates’”, “separates”, and/or “protects” the inner solar environment from the outer; this approach is a relative point of view. Astrophysics itself has made the very same protective "force field" analogy but data from the Voyager probes suggest that …
… the implications of this new finding, said Opher, is also that the heliosheath is very different from what scientists expected. She prefaced by saying that any earlier ideas about the region was only conjecture since no spacecraft has been there before. “We thought heliopause would be a smooth surface and shield us from intergalactic cosmic rays,” she said. “It is not a shield but more like a membrane that is a sea of bubbles.” - Voyagers Find Giant Jacuzzi-like Bubbles at Edge of Solar System
And
It is highly likely the mass of individual magnetic structures actually makes the Solar System more porous to cosmic rays.

"It's more like a membrane that is permeable to the galactic cosmic rays, so we expect the galactic cosmic rays to enter and slowly wander through this sea of magnetic bubbles until they can access field lines that connect back to the Sun and quickly escape," explained Professor Parker. - Voyagers ride 'magnetic bubbles’
So instead of exclusively viewing “double layers” as some type of solid wall, a “force field”, or sheath - despite the fact that they ALSO perform those functions - the Voyager probes suggest that they are actually a type of “membrane” possessing the qualities of being “porous”, and/or “permeable”. It has already been established that material from the ISM and IGM can be found inside the heliosphere and that material from inside the heliosphere can be found just outside of same (Voyager data). In order for that to be the case those species need to bidirectionally travel across said "permeable membrane". Needless to say that were it not for the presence of the heliosphere “double layer(s)” there would be a LOT more cosmic rays bombarding the inner solar system. Therefore, these amorphous “double layer structures” perform “modulation” functions (“modifying, but not canceling” as Brigit says) and might also be characterized as being “leaky”.

The situation can be viewed from either of those interpretations and still be 'correct' relative to the modulation function. Its why one can find papers such as ...

A Study of Heliospheric Modulation and Periodicities of Galactic Cosmic Rays During Cycle 24 - Partha Chowdhury et al
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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