The Saturn Myth & Polar Configuration Analysis & Critique

[evcochrane]

763

ATEN

He has been doing considerable research on the Exodus, the Amarna period etc at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=5675 . He told me privately that he finds that Akhenaten was actually trying to destroy Atenism. He found also that Moses may have been the Egyptian, Ramose, a follower of Akhenaten who took over Atenism and made it into Judaism, I think.

The latter hypothesis is essentially that espoused by Sigmund Freud in Moses and Monotheism and, while endlessly fascinating to read, is a total non-starter. Although an avid collector of Egyptian antiquities, Freud was not an Egyptologist or well versed in Egyptian history and his "findings" reflect that fact. It was this book, and the heresy it represented, that inspired Velikovsky to launch his Ages in Chaos series which, in turn, led to Worlds in Collision. In retrospect, it is difficult to discern which effort was more misguided: Freud's hypothesis on Moses or V's Ages in Chaos monstrosity. By the way, who is this Chris fellow? I went to his website but couldn't find any personal information.

[Lloyd]

865

763
ATEN
He has been doing considerable research on the Exodus, the Amarna period etc at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=5675 . He told me privately that he finds that Akhenaten was actually trying to destroy Atenism. He found also that Moses may have been the Egyptian, Ramose, a follower of Akhenaten who took over Atenism and made it into Judaism, I think.

The latter hypothesis is essentially that espoused by Sigmund Freud in Moses and Monotheism and, while endlessly fascinating to read, is a total non-starter. Although an avid collector of Egyptian antiquities, Freud was not an Egyptologist or well versed in Egyptian history and his "findings" reflect that fact. It was this book, and the heresy it represented, that inspired Velikovsky to launch his Ages in Chaos series which, in turn, led to Worlds in Collision. In retrospect, it is difficult to discern which effort was more misguided: Freud's hypothesis on Moses or V's Ages in Chaos monstrosity. By the way, who is this Chris fellow? I went to his website but couldn't find any personal information.

Ev, his name is Charles Chandler, not Chris. Here's his TB forum member info: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... file&u=446
And here's his bio at his own website: http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=5653

Here's his quote from early in the ... Myths & Catastrophism thread at https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 35#p129613
... post by CharlesChandler [CC] » Fri Dec 27, 2019 11:38 am
_Lloyd wrote (Fri Dec 27, 2019 10:29 am): What was the Aten?
_[CC:] The Aten cannot be equated with the winged Sun disc.
_First, the Sun disc symbol predated Atenism by over a thousand years, during which time its meaning evolved, depending on the definition of the god(s) it represented. _It first appeared c. 2600 bce. See pg. 531 in: https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchica ... TATION.pdf
_So for the winged Sun disc to be useful for catastrophists, the inspiring event would have occurred before 2600 bce.
_Second, it [the Aten - LK] was only used by Akhenaten early in his regency -- he later decreed that the Aten could not be reduced to an icon or an idol, and that if it had to be represented in any sort of permanent medium, it had to be spelled out phonetically.

So, right off the bat he said the Aten was not the winged sun disk. But in the last sentence there, he said "it was only used ..." and "it" seems to refer to the prior sentence, which discussed the winged sun disk, so that seems to have confused me.

[evcochrane]

Thanks much for this clarification, Lloyd. I have had a brief look at Chandler's various webpages and am impressed with his scholarship and breadth of interest. I also agree with him that the Aten and winged disk are likely not identical although it is wise not to be too dogmatic on such matters. To give you an idea of the complexity of the situation: The Egyptian Ra sign, conventionally translated simply as "Sun," depicts a circle/disk with an inner orb. As I have documented in numerous publications, this very sign serves as the logogram for "Sun" in the earliest Chinese script as well and is ubiquitous in rock art around the globe in very ancient (prehistoric) contexts. That said, no one in their right mind would ever depict the present Sun in such fashion. Hence the rub: How to explain the unique form of the pictograph in question? It is my judgment, needless to say, that the Ra image has nothing whatsoever to do with the present Sun. The Aten, similarly, is conventionally translated as "Sun" in most scholarly works, presumably because later Egyptian literature used the term to denote the present Sun. In early Egyptian texts, however, such as the Coffin Texts, the Aten (jtn) is clearly distinguished from Ra and thus cannot be identified as the primordial sun itself (i.e., sun of myth rather than present sun). In such texts the Aten is basically identified with the akhet as the locus of the primordial sunrise or as a vehicle housing the primordial sun. Hence I would argue that it is important to maintain a strict distinction between the two terms as they likely reference different celestial bodies altogether. Hope this helps.

[CharlesChandler]

The latter hypothesis is essentially that espoused by Sigmund Freud in Moses and Monotheism and, while endlessly fascinating to read, is a total non-starter.

I don't know if I'm ready to start debating this yet but at the risk of getting stomped (again) for not having researched this topic enough, why do you find "Moses and Monotheism" to be a non-starter?

BTW, I don't think that I can send a private message for some reason.

[evcochrane]

Charles, perhaps you could just email me directly at ev.cochrane@gmail.com

Thanks much in advance.

[evcochrane]

[why do you find "Moses and Monotheism" to be a non-starter?

It's a long story, I'm afraid. 100 years ago all of the top scholars wasted a ton of time and energy attempting to sort out the chronology of Heracles or Gilgamesh or Samson, making of them a king of this or that tribe or locale. Almost unbelievably, Sumerologists continue to churn out books claiming Gilgamesh was an early king of Uruk who lived in 3000 BCE (or some equally fictitious date). Lost on all of these folks is the unfortunate fact that all of these characters were mythical figures and never walked on Earth at all. I suspect that Moses belongs together with Samson and Noah and various other mythical figures in the Old Testament. Virtually every biography ever written on Moses begins with a disclaimer stating: "Virtually nothing is known of Moses from archaeology or historical sources." And of course Moses never appears in the Egyptian sources either.

[CharlesChandler]

Lost on all of these folks is the unfortunate fact that all of these characters were mythical figures and never walked on Earth at all.

I won't fault you for being skeptical. Certainly we can't take the Torah at face value, since it contradicts itself, so something has to be reinterpreted, and of course one possibility is that it was all made up. But there is a difference between skepticism and dismissal -- the skeptic is still open to new information, while the dismissive one has already made up his mind, and on the basis of what? My attitude is not to have my mind already made up when studying something, and to simply use the tools to see what conclusions can be drawn, and to what degree of confidence.

And of course Moses never appears in the Egyptian sources either.

In Egyptian "Moses" would have been "Mose", which was a very common component in Egyptian names (e.g., Ahmose, Thutmose). I think that his original name was Ramose, and that the "Ra-" was dropped since it was the name of a pagan sun god in Judaism (and Atenism for that matter).

Cheers!

[Lloyd]

972

MOSES = RAMOSE?

Charles, I think the following is where you explained the id. of Moses as Ramose. Isn't it?

Akhenaten, Moses, & Atenism
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=5678

Did you say somewhere that Ramose was buried in Egypt? Or did he just have a tomb there that he was not buried in?

[CharlesChandler]

Did you say somewhere that Ramose was buried in Egypt? Or did he just have a tomb there that he was not buried in?

He had a tomb in Thebes (TT55) and another at Amarna (AST11). Both were found empty, and his mummy was never located elsewhere. Of course, most tombs were found empty, and archaeologists are never surprised when they can't find somebody -- rather, they're surprised when they do. So just because he wasn't found in Egypt doesn't mean that he had to have left.

[Lloyd]

1492

I tried to contact Ev, to see when he expects to be back here, but he hasn't replied yet.

[evcochrane]

On April 24th JP Michael stated that "there is no evidence prior to the 7th century BCE in any extant tradition, oral or literary, that Saturn was Earth's former sun." A day later he doubled down on this claim, adding that Rens van der Sluijs had "checked the sources of used by Talbott, Cardona, and Cochrane and discovered that none of them can be reliably dated earlier than the 7th century BCE." The bone of contention here is Saturn's explicit identification with Shamash in Babylonian astronomical texts, which formed a cornerstone in Talbott's argument in The Saturn Myth (1980). Why exactly Saturn was identified with Shamash remains a subject of much controversy among scholars of Babylonian astronomy. Here's what Ulla Koch had to say in her book Mesopotamian Astrology (1995):

"The association of Saturn and the sun is certainly older [than the 7th century] and far more entrenched in tradition than warranted by such arcane speculations [i.e., those Babylonian astrologers who associated Saturn with justice]." (123)

Elsewhere in the book the same scholar pointed to astronomical texts dating to the 13th century BCE (Emar IV/4) and observed that the several references to Shamash therein "must refer to Saturn."

Note: It is possible to read this book online simply by going to Advanced Google Book Search and typing in the title of the book.

[Lloyd]

1644

SHAMASH = SATURN BEFORE 7TH CENTURY
In this post https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =480#p4978 in which I responded to JP's so-called unanswered questions, I quoted a Cardona (Fkare Star) quote of Ev, stating: "Saturn's identification with Shamash is attested in omen texts from the 13th century BC", ref.: "In Defence of the Saturn Theory," Chronology & Catastrophism Review (2002: I), p. 29

Here's the link to the book Ev mentioned, I think, i.e. Mesopotamian Astrology
https://books.google.com/books/about/Me ... iwAqGlmAQC

[Lloyd]

2182

SEEKING THE TIME OF THE SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP

TIME OF THE VENUS COMET
(I'm copying this from my CMC thread)

I found that Ev estimated the time of the Venus Comet. I posted Highlights from Ev Cochrane's paper, FOSSIL GODS, at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... comparison . On page 123 is this statement. "The natural form referenced by the MUÍ3-sign — i.e., the spiraling comet-like apparition presented by the planet Venus — disappeared from the ancient skies at some point between prehistoric times and the end of the Early Dynastic period. As the planet Venus settled into a more stable orbit, its heaven-spanning tail disappeared together with its terrifying aspect. At that decisive juncture in history new symbols were devised to describe Sumer’s greatest goddess."

Wikipedia says the Early Dynastic Period of Egypt lasted from c. 3150 BC – c. 2686 BC. So the cometary appearance of Venus would apparently have ended (no later than) about 2700 BC. However, I don't know how accurate conventional dating is. I'll try to ask Ev his opinion on that.

This https://www.worldhistory.org/Enheduanna/ says, "The Akkadian poet Enheduanna (l. 2285-2250 BCE) is the world's first author known by name and was the daughter of Sargon of Akkad (Sargon the Great, r. 2334-2279 BCE)." She's the one who apparently wrote about Venus depositing venom upon the land, which was likely the time when Venus appeared to be comet-like. If she was an eye-witness, then the time of the end of the Venus Comet would have been about 2260 BC.

So there's a 440 year difference between the two dates. Hopefully, Ev can comment on that if I can get back in touch.

[evcochrane]

It will be noted that I was talking about the Early Dynastic Period in Mesopotamia, not Egypt. The Early Dynastic is traditionally dated from 3000 to 2300 BCE. The comet-like sign of Inanna-Venus appears already in the previous period, i.e., the Uruk III levels, traditionally dated to 3200 BCE or so. Unfortunately, these texts were found in a rather jumbled context so they are very difficult to date securely. It is my judgment that the Venus-comet period occurred at some point before this period, likely during the Neolithic period and in the prehistoric levels of Mesopotamia and Egypt. Thus the texts allegedly written by Sargon's daughter--attested, you will note, only in much later texts--are not eyewitness accounts (presuming she is even the author at all). Rather, I suspect she is drawing on traditional materials for her tales much like the Biblical authors were drawing on traditional materials in composing the tales pertaining to the dragon combat. In short, there is no way that the Venus-comet material can be dated to as late as 2200 BCE. Hope this helps.

[Lloyd]

2300

Yes, that helps. Thanks for correcting me.
"the spiraling comet-like apparition presented by the planet Venus — disappeared from the ancient skies at some point between prehistoric times and the end of the Early Dynastic period" [of Mesopotamia, 2300 BC].

Has it also been determined by you or others when the planet-gods stopped appearing in the sky?

Do you think Saturn left the configuration first, leaving Jupiter in its place?

And did Jupiter, Venus and Mars then depart to their present orbits shortly after Saturn left?

Also, do you want to say what your new book will be about?