Impact craters

Historic planetary instability and catastrophe. Evidence for electrical scarring on planets and moons. Electrical events in today's solar system. Electric Earth.
User avatar
GaryN
Posts: 2806
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:18 am

Impact craters

Unread post by GaryN » Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:18 am

Youtube recommended this site based on my watch history. https://www.youtube.com/c/GeologyHub/videos. I was looking at the impact crater videos, and the narrator just sounded so damn smug to me that I had to post some questions and some rather sarcastic comments, trying to draw some response. Very little so far, and my query as to the actual speed of these impactors with Earths surface has not drawn any actual numbers.
The standard model it seems begins with estimates of how many tons of TNT energy would be required to produce the crater, then work backwards and come up with some numbers for the mass and speed necessary to produce the TNT equivalent.
I couldn't actually say myself what the contact speed would be, and I have not even tried to come up with an answer, but my gut feeling based on many accumulated years of science, physics, mechanics etc instantly tells me it is not possible for anything to reach Earths surface in one piece at the high speeds the mainstream tells us they must strike with.

"Hitting anything at 40000 MPH, even air, is like hitting concrete."
From a FAQ on the Chelyabinsk meteorite.

So, at my point in life with not too many years remaining based on accumulating ailments, I have decided that I am going to start putting some or maybe most of my hard earned assets towards attempting to find answers to this and many other questions that I have accumulated over the years. We have much information now from various space based missions to tell us about the composition of possible impactors, the size, composition and density of Earths atmosphere, and of the electrical/plasma conditions surrounding the Earth.
Surely with all the info we have it should be possible to at least begin to numerically and scientifically simulate the conditions and reach a reasonable estimate of the impact speed of a given mass given the composition, approach speed and angle. I have too many other things requiring my attention just now and so am looking to find someone who thinks they could tackle such a project, and if there is anyone within the EU or TB community that would be my preference, keep the money within the community wherever possible.
I also have a number of other projects lined up that will be looking for those with the appropriate skills and abilities needed to design, administer and maintain a web site and phpBB forum. I have been in discussion with some talented local associates regarding the production of videos and possibly original music for some Youtube vids, so things are moving forward, but it may be the winter season here before I can devote some serious organisational time to the projects.
If any members of this forum, the admins, the owners, or their friends or associates are interested in such projects then please feel free to contact me on the BBS or by E-mail at garyinsooke2@gmail.com and we can discuss practicalities, costs and timelines.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

User avatar
GaryN
Posts: 2806
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:18 am

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by GaryN » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:14 pm

Here's a starting point: Kinetic bombardment. The Rods from God idea, which I don't remember as actually having been tested, but from their calculated numbers we can see that the 8,000 m/s entry velocity of their penetrator is reduced to 3.000 m/s at impact. So the speed of an oddly shaped, not very aerodynamic lump of anything, even solid iron, will be much , much slower, add in ablation and I don't think much is going to hit the ground.
Big ugly lumps of rock don't have a chance, likely dissipate in a flash of radiation and the processes that would follow, such as magneto-acoustic shock waves.
What happens when we scale up size and mass of an incoming object? If it could be shown conclusively that an incoming object has no chance of striking in one piece at high speed then there is only one other method for the crater formation that I can think of!
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

User avatar
GaryN
Posts: 2806
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:18 am

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by GaryN » Sat Sep 25, 2021 7:39 pm

It would seem to be another assumption that impactors ever reach Earths surface at greater velocities than those associated with terminal velocity. There are no scientific models that can show hyper velocity impacts of even solid iron or iron core meteors, and the possibility of 'rubble pile' or even chondrites reaching the surface at other than terminal velocities is as far as I can determine, impossible. The reason there are no scientific models is likely because a close examination of any such model would show that it is not possible. There are of course no models that would take into account the electrical characteristics of iron or high metal content bodies and how they would behave when subject to Earths electric or magnetic fields.
That substantial pieces of iron have landed on Earths surface is not in doubt, the strewn fields of such fragments have been found and mapped, but in all cases the pieces are found on or near the surface. Even the Hoba meteorite at an estimated 60 tons and theorised to have impacted at around 720 MPH caused little excavation. I suspect it fell at no more than 250 MPH though.
From "Some Meteorite Realities":
Meteorites hit the ground at terminal velocity, about 200-400 miles per hour. That’s not fast enough to make a crater unless the rock is large (>meter size? I really do not know).
https://sites.wustl.edu/meteoritesite/i ... realities/

So the objects that have created some of the large craters on earth must have been very large and moving very fast, and have sufficient momentum to 'punch through' Earths atmosphere as if it did not exist. If we go to extremes and have a many miles diameter sized object approaching Earth at hyper velocities, what happens? I think the electrical interaction between such bodies would result in firstly a deflection due to electric fields, and if it did get close enough then massive discharging that would lead to the destruction of the object.

On this page is some info on charging of meteoroids:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/ph ... meteoroids

Electric Field on Earth
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/1998/Tr ... ards.shtml

A large fast moving iron object would start to interact with earths magnetic field perhaps 60 thousand miles from the surface, so what happens when the iron is cutting through the field lines? Then there is the 200 KV difference between the top of the Ionosphere and Earths surface...
Nobody I have contacted has shown any interest in developing a scientific model, all I get is some hand waving and the strong belief that large things have collided with Earth at hyper velocities as evidenced by the size of the craters. No real science at all.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

Maol
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by Maol » Wed Sep 29, 2021 4:13 pm

Interesting observation and good reading in the links. it is evident an iron would be decelerated and consequently heated by eddy current drag.

Open Mind
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:47 pm

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by Open Mind » Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:11 pm

Interesting thoughts. I've often wondered about the suspected impactor theorized to have hit at the boundary of the younger dryas period. Its fairly well established that an event happened that caused catastrophic melting of the ice from analysis of the massive flooding evidence below the lower margins of that ice that covered Canada.

What's also curious is the theory of ice chunks having been thrown up in the air from an impact around the great lakes, and travelling in a suborbital parabola, hitting the ground and making the curious Carolina Bays craters. They do all happen to have an eliptical shape, all with the long axis lining up with one focal point of source. Considering an impact of the forces you suggest the mainstream indicate, a material impacted with such low density as ice, as compared to rock seems highly unlikely to break up in large chunks and thrown up. The destruction from heat generated would likely atomize all that material completely and possibly only show a narrow ring of broken up ice at the farthest point away from the impact point.

I had considered if in fact instead of an impact, if it were a massive plasma arc. I picture a massive arc passing through ice to the ground underneath where there would be a huge heat signature that would flash evaporate ice from underneath. In that case the force of pressure from under the ice of expanding evaporated water would presumably have a more uniform upward force, expanding the ice sheet into a large bubble, cracking the ice and sending it on its hypothetical path suggested by those Carolina Bay craters.

What is your specific alternative to an impact from an extraterrestrial material in general?

User avatar
GaryN
Posts: 2806
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:18 am

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by GaryN » Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:03 pm

Hi Open Mind,
..the massive flooding evidence below the lower margins of that ice that covered Canada.
This massive flooding evidence can also be interpreted as being of electrical origin, as can the scaring they say must have been from glacially pushed rock wearing grooves in the bedrock. I had a topic in the V2.0 forums, have to read it again myself to refresh my memory of what I said!(many broken links from as far as I have read)
Questoning the ice ages.
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 1c48d8a83a
I do believe there was a great catastrophic event at the ~12-13,000 KYA mark, and that much ice was deposited on the Earth, but that glaciers did not shape the surface, just filled the electrically formed features. The Piri Reis map I think was pre-13 KYA.
the curious Carolina Bays craters
Again I think these electrical in nature. Some geological features just scream electricity, others may be from one of hundreds of electro-magnetic processes we just have not recognised or seen in experiments yet.
What is your specific alternative to an impact from an extraterrestrial material in general?
There are a number of possibilities I think. Firstly I do not think it takes any object heading towards Earth to discharge in the atmosphere to make a crater. Sufficiently strong atmospheric electric fields during a major solar flare/proton storm could result in dark or glow mode discharging and/or mega lightning, but I have also thought about the Van Allen belt becoming much more active and expanding enough so that discharges could leap to ground. The VA belt does come pretty close already, causing the South Atlantic Anomaly. Another could be the passage of an interloper through the solar system, an object with a plasma tail which might form a conductive bridge between the Sun and Earth, or Mars and Earth? A lot of maybes and couldbes but the standard models seem happy with that approach.
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

Maol
Posts: 355
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by Maol » Mon Oct 04, 2021 11:23 pm

GaryN wrote:
Mon Oct 04, 2021 8:03 pm
Another could be the passage of an interloper through the solar system, an object with a plasma tail which might form a conductive bridge between the Sun and Earth, or Mars and Earth? A lot of maybes and couldbes but the standard models seem happy with that approach.
If two planets were of opposite or significantly different potential electric charge when connected by a conductor of sufficient capacity and low enough resistance, that would be an interesting event.

User avatar
JP Michael
Posts: 500
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2019 4:19 am

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by JP Michael » Fri Oct 08, 2021 11:56 am

Some good news on this front: Jacob Gable got himself a new vacuum chamber and has resumed his cratering experiments.

User avatar
nick c
Posts: 2676
Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:12 am

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by nick c » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:07 pm

Maol wrote:If two planets were of opposite or significantly different potential electric charge when connected by a conductor of sufficient capacity and low enough resistance, that would be an interesting event.
Worlds In Collison, Velikovsky, p.114 Doubleday (1950):
A thunderbolt, on striking a magnet, reverses the poles of the magnet. The terrestrial globe is a huge magnet. A short circuit between it and another celestial body could result in the north and south magnetic poles of the earth exchanging places.

User avatar
The Great Dog
Posts: 267
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:58 pm

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by The Great Dog » Thu Oct 21, 2021 3:02 pm

https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2014/0 ... uminosity/
As a meteoroid approaches Earth, it enters regions of varying electric flux. Between 100 and 200 kilometers, it encounters an area of peak amplitude known as “the dynamo region”. This region is where there is the greatest conductivity in Earth’s magnetic field, or its “maximum electric equipotential”. The largest electric charge flow along Earth’s geomagnetic equator takes place in the dynamo region.
There are no other dogs but The Great Dog

User avatar
GaryN
Posts: 2806
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:18 am

Re: Impact craters

Unread post by GaryN » Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:41 am

What happens when a meteor hits the atmosphere?
Scientists are using supercomputers to help understand how tiny meteors, invisible to the naked eye, liberate electrons that can be detected by radar and can characterize the speed, direction and rate of meteor deceleration with high precision, allowing its origin to be determined.
...
In it, (the study)lead author Glenn Sugar of Johns Hopkins University developed computer simulations to model the physics of what happens when a meteor hits the atmosphere. The meteor heats up and sheds material at hypersonic speeds in a process called ablation. The shed material slams into atmospheric molecules and turns into glowing plasma.
https://phys.org/news/2021-10-meteor-atmosphere.html

I wonder if the supercomputer will be able to model BIG meteors?
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest