Plasma and Abiogenesis

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.
jacmac
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Plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Fri Mar 25, 2022 4:40 pm

There are many theories about the origin(s) of living things on earth.
The subject is called Abiogenesis and there is a decent summary of it on it's Wikipedia page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis
I'm getting more interested in the topic, and I'm thinking it deserves more attention from the EU community.
If there have been discussion on previous forums let me know please.

Some theories of abiogenesis have offered lightning as an energy force but,
I have not yet found any more detailed suggestions as to how that would work.
There is this paper that heads in the right direction.
https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn ... m-of-life/
Physicists have created blobs of gaseous plasma that can grow, replicate and communicate – fulfilling most of the traditional requirements for biological cells. Without inherited material they cannot be described as alive, but the researchers believe these curious spheres may offer a radical new explanation for how life began.
I am thinking that the self organizing ability of plasma may play an important role in an EU perspective on the subject.
AS some may know I have been promoting the self organizing of plasma
in discussion of the importance of the chromosphere in understanding the sun.

We know, or have the idea, that plasma can self organize into double layers, and they (DL) can take on different shapes.
These being parallel planes, cylinders (called flux ropes by the mainstream ), and spheres.
The spheres might be ball lightning or plasmoids :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasmoid

I'm of the opinion that the spherical shapes be expanded to include cell membranes.
The scalar nature of plasma structures can go small as well as going large.
It is ironic that cell membranes are already called plasma membranes,
but that refers to blood plasma.
The connection , of course, is Irving Langmuir who named the charged gas he studied "plasma"
due to similarities he saw with blood plasma.

The cell membranes of all animal creatures, us included, all are of a double layer nature.
From a Google statement easily found elsewhere:
Like all other cellular membranes, the plasma membrane consists of both lipids and proteins. The fundamental structure of the membrane is the phospholipid bilayer, which forms a stable barrier between two aqueous compartments.
Also animal cells have an electric potential charge. This from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Membrane_potential
Membrane potential (also transmembrane potential or membrane voltage) is the difference in electric potential between the interior and the exterior of a biological cell.

I would take the small leap, from an EU perspective, and call the membrane charge potential
and the cell "plasma" membrane itself a result , direct or otherwise, from
the ability of plasma to form spherical double layers.

The self regulating nature of plasma in space deserves to be included in discussion of
the possible origins of life on earth, beyond the simple statement that "lightning has supplied the energy."
What do you think ?
Jack
Last edited by ForumModerator on Sun Jan 29, 2023 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: updated thread title

jackokie
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jackokie » Fri Mar 25, 2022 5:21 pm

@jacmac I think you may be on to something. When life arose on Earth the solar system's pattern of Birkeland currents was probably essentially the same as now, so all of the electrical activity we see today - auroras, sprites and elves, Telluric currents, etc. - would have been present, perhaps more vigorous than today. I'm convinced that if at one time there was enough current to drive electric discharge machining (which I believe), then it makes sense that lightening is also a phenomenon of Earth's Birkeland current. With all that current flowing around, and with plasma's self-organizing properties you highlight, you are approaching a plausible hypothesis.

Sitting here speculating whether currents in plasma are the common denominator, the building blocks if you will, of creation, it occurred to me: Might electrical activity account for the discontinuities and major changes that have no satisfactory explanation in evolution theory?
Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once.

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orrery
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by orrery » Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:37 am

Panspermia provides an alternative to abiogenesis and is far more likely.
"though free to think and to act - we are held together like the stars - in firmament with ties inseparable - these ties cannot be seen but we can feel them - each of us is only part of a whole" -tesla

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jacmac
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Sat Mar 26, 2022 2:38 am

jackokie,
I think you may be on to something.
Thank you.
Sitting here speculating whether currents in plasma are the common denominator,
the building blocks if you will, of creation, it occurred to me: Might electrical activity
account for the discontinuities and major changes that have no satisfactory explanation in evolution theory?
I'm not too well versed in evolution theory itself but, in regards to the evolutionary history of animal species ,
I do strongly recommend the Immanuel Velikovsky books, Worlds In Collision and Earth in Upheaval
The latter is full of evidence in the ground of catastrophic events on our planet; effecting animal and human history
and sometimes evolutionary breaks in that history, ie. extinction events.
Also, I remember reading years ago of new species of plants growing in bomb craters in the second WW in England.
Indicating instant creation of plant species from extreme violent events.

Others have rightly said that plasma is lifelike.
Due to the strength of the electromagnetic force,
and the ubiquitous presence of electric plasma
I have taken to saying: Life Is Plasma like !

jacmac
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Sat Apr 02, 2022 2:54 am

orrery
Panspermia provides an alternative to abiogenesis and is far more likely.
Wikipedia on Panspermia:
Critics argue that it does not answer the question of the origin of life but merely places it on another celestial body. It is also criticized because it cannot be tested experimentally.
If it could be shown that life began with the help of space plasmas ability to organize charge separation
and that charge separation at a microscopic level in a spherical form presented as useful for biological life to come to be.....
I would think that would be a step toward more understanding of things in general, and another reason to promote the
Electric Universe version of existence.

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nick c
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by nick c » Sat Apr 02, 2022 3:11 pm

Abiogenesis and panspermia are not mutually exclusive concepts. The two are quite compatible, and may be responsible for the creation and distribution of life through out the cosmos.

jacmac
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:17 am

It seems that Panspermia (that life is all around the universe) is kicking the can down the street , so to speak.
It is not really an answer to how did life start ?
As nick says they are perhaps both responsible for us being here.

But I digress :
I am posting to share an answer to an audience question at a panel discussion of this topic; which I stumbled onto....
Panel: Molecular Frontiers Symposium "Planet Earth: A Scientific Journey"
It was vague as where this came from, but is two years old.
Questioner: member of the audience.
answer given by: prof Jack Szostak from Harvard.
Prof Szostak has made video's on you tube that I have watched. He is all about the chemistry.
Here is the Q and A after the talks that we don't see with this video. ??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJsUc29yajU
It is the first question, that is about the plasma electric discharge in the Miller- Urey experiment from 1952.
The answer explains why they did not look more into the electric part of the experiment.
The question starts at 1 min 20 seconds in.
It sounds to me like they wanted to just focus on the chemistry, and the electricity was put aside,
Also the chemistry developments can be linked to evolution whereas the spark takes you somewhere else IMO.

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orrery
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by orrery » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:11 am

The original question was how life began on Earth - not about how life began in the universe. Abiogenesis on Earth is unlikely unless we ditch 4 billion years as the age of the Earth and allow for the Earth to be much older.
"though free to think and to act - we are held together like the stars - in firmament with ties inseparable - these ties cannot be seen but we can feel them - each of us is only part of a whole" -tesla

http://www.reddit.com/r/plasmaCosmology

jacmac
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:23 am

Why do you, orrery, think that 4 billion years is not enough time
for life to start and get established on earth ??

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orrery
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by orrery » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:24 am

jacmac wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:23 am Why do you, orrery, think that 4 billion years is not enough time
for life to start and get established on earth ??
Gene duplication rates
"though free to think and to act - we are held together like the stars - in firmament with ties inseparable - these ties cannot be seen but we can feel them - each of us is only part of a whole" -tesla

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jacmac
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Sat Apr 09, 2022 1:45 pm

Thanks orrery.
I'll have to leave that for now, as I'm only getting into the subject.
I have a lot of reading to do........

Bice
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by Bice » Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:28 pm

Your hunch seems likely. Life as a plasma layer that allows itself to form and organize molecular symphonies, which repeat, commune and deviate within the capacities of the layer's limitation environment. Below or above layers change as organization potentials allow the form of other organizational expression. These layers are stacked and communicate similar to a yin yang flow into each other and beyond. Consciousness may also extend beyond the current life plasma layer, maybe even before or even after too. Consciousness may be necessary to enter our life organization level or maybe it is synonymous with plasma itself. Possibly indirectly these layers are aware of their sandwiched relations. The age of anything is mostly speculation. Our examples of comparisons are limited by the dominance of our survival perceptions focused on a recognition.

jacmac
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Mon Apr 18, 2022 12:37 pm

I have found this document from 2006 on microscopic ball lightning:
https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LewisEmicroscopi.pdf
It comes from:
Proceedings Ninth International Symposium on Ball Lightning, ISBL-06, 16-19 August 2006, Eindhoven, The
Netherlands. Ed. G. C. Dijkhuis
A copy of the conclusion in the paper:
5. Conclusion
We can see from the similarity of the natural and experimental effects that MBL exists and is
similar to larger BL, and that these kinds of plasmoids are involved in transmutation, energy
production, and anomalous effects involving atoms and the transport of materials.
I am presenting this to report that microscopic ball lightning behaving objects have been reported.
This would support, IMO, that plasma might also have form microscopic spherical double layers under the right conditions,
and those conditions might be created by natural lightning striking the earth.

The formation of cell sized spherical double layers by lightning striking the "primordial soup" of early earth
would have given the chemistry of the "primordial soup" many, opportunities to develop into bio/chemistry
by providing cell like structures, each with an electric charge energy source.

jackokie
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jackokie » Sun May 01, 2022 7:49 pm

As time has permitted I've been trying to learn enough about microbiology to contribute to this discussion. Whew! I don't intend to open an Intelligent Design can of worms, but the complexity of even the "simple" single-cell Archaea is remarkable enough to push me a little in that direction. I am not finished with my education but have come to some conclusions:
  • The demonstrated ability of electric discharges to create amino acids from a “primordial soup” shows that panspermia, i.e., amino acids, etc. carried on asteroids and comets, is unnecessary to account for life’s presence on Earth.
  • Even the simplest microbes (Archaea) are clearly complex and highly evolved organisms. It is highly unlikely they could have been the first primitive life form. A truly simple ancestor? Maybe.
  • Regardless of the abundance of amino acids and proteins, it was the imperative to split that defined the first living cell. Whether that imperative arose spontaneously or was designed is the key to the debate.
  • Microbiology texts call the steps in the fissioning process the “cell cycle”, and they often refer to the cell components that govern fission as a "machine"; some use the term "information processing". The precise steps and various components involved in the cycle certainly reinforce those impressions.
  • The structures and components of microbes exhibit a truly amazing variability and fault tolerance; over a wide range, different amino acids and proteins can play the same role in different genera, and in some cases, alternate substances can substitute when the customary biochemicals are missing. Archaea, Bacteria, and Eukaryotes all possess processes dedicated to genomic stability.
  • Prokaryotes have backup processes/substances that ensure fission even when the primary fission-related substances are missing.
Common Prokaryote Cell Structure
Nucleoid - A central region of the cell contains its DNA.
Plasmid - A small circular piece of DNA that is physically separated from chromosomal DNA.
Cytoplasm - Cellular fluid hosting all other cellular structures.
Cell Membrane - Also known as the plasma membrane, that separates the cell from the outside environment.
Cell Wall - Provides structure and protection from the outside environment.
Ribosome - The site for protein synthesis.
Pilus - Hair-like structures for cell attachment
Archaellum - Tail-like structures that assist in the movement. Similar to the bacterial flagellum
Cannulae* - Hollow tube-like structures connect cells after division; form web to keep cells together
Hamus* - Long tube with hooks at the end. Allow cells to attach.

(*) This structure is unique to archaea.

The link below contains a transparent image of an Archaeal cell that illustrates these structures (scroll down a bit). This article provides a (relatively) non-technical overview of Archaea. It’s definitely worth reading.

https://rsscience.com/archaea/

Example of Archael Complexity
Archaeal genomes resemble bacterial genomes with respect to form, size, and complexity. All known archaeal genomes are circular DNAs and range in size from 0.5 to 5.8 Mbp. The archaeal genome smaller than 1 Mbp is found in a symbiont that derives nutrients from a host, and the small size of this genome reflects the loss of unnecessary genes. Many archaeal genomes appear to be replicated from a single, bidirectional origin, as in bacteria, but at least one genus, Sulfolobus, initiates replication simultaneously at three widely spaced origins. The base compositions of archaeal genomes cover a wide range, from 28 to 66 mol.% G+C, and do not correlate with the organisms’ optimal growth temperatures. This lack of correlation implies that stability of the DNA duplex in vivo is modulated by other factors, such as counterions and DNA-binding proteins, which compensate for the environmental temperature and alleviate selection on the intrinsic melting temperature of the genomic DNA. Archaeal genomes also resemble bacterial genomes with respect to the number, length, and density of genes they encode. Archaeal genes average about 1 kbp in length and tend to be either adjacent to the neighboring genes or separated by less than about 200 bp; this results in high gene densities with minimal noncoding regions. Only a few protein-encoding genes of archaea have introns, and these introns are short.
Genomics of bacteria and archaea: the emerging dynamic view of the prokaryotic world
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588523/
I included the above paragraph to show that Archaea, supposedly the oldest and therefore "simplest" of microorganisms, are actually complex and highly evolved microbes. They already have distinct structures dedicated to protein synthesis, movement, and of course DNA. Regardless of the availability of amino acids, proteins, etc., some process to divide the cell is the key to a living cell. The process of fission, called the cell cycle, is organized into several distinct steps requiring multiple communications via messenger chemistry so sophisticated that fission is delayed by ‘not yet’ messages until all is in readiness. It is beyond reasonable that something so complex and dependent on such organized behavior could be the result of a happy accident.
On the other hand, given the way the various cell biochemicals respond to one another, it is conceivable that a very simple proto-cell, perhaps consisting only of a semi-permiable membrane, could manage to achieve fission. One possibility is that the cell could grow until the facing membrane sides, attracted to one another, touched and proceeded to split, with no DNA needed in such a basic setup. Having achieved this first level of organization, the newly hatched unicellular organism could embark on its course of adaptive changes and increasing complexity.

I knew diving into biochemistry was going to be challenging, but the sheer diversity and complexity of the microbial world are stunning. I have reviewed a fair amount of literature but have mostly learned how much more there is to learn. Since these little critters are so small a visible light microscope is useless in examining them, I think it unlikely some plasma artifact spurred the formation of the first microbes. It’s more likely the mix of substances in that primordial mélange formed the natural covalent bonds their chemistry dictated and produced a membrane conveniently organized as a sack – the ab initio platform for a cell.

If Wal Thornhill’s hypothesis is correct - that electric charge is the fundamental source of gravity - then positive and negative charges are the foundation of the universe from the smallest to the largest manifestations. We have seen that electric discharges can create elements and complex molecules. If my speculation about the beginnings of life is anywhere close to reality, then what we see in the cosmos – the filaments, galaxies, stars – is a web of life, a factory that creates the raw materials and provides the resulting life with the energy it needs to thrive. Is electric charge the Yin and Yang of Life?
Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once.

jacmac
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Re: plasma and Abiogenesis

Unread post by jacmac » Mon May 02, 2022 8:07 am

Thanks for your comments jackokie .
Here are a few replies:
you said
Archaea, supposedly the oldest and therefore "simplest" of microorganisms,
are actually complex and highly evolved microbes.

They might be the oldest and simplest but their complexity is how they are now, not Gazillions of years ago.
A truly simple ancestor? Maybe.
In his book, IN SEARCH OF CELL HISTORY (University of Chicago Press 2014) Franklin Harrold makes it very clear
that he, and others, believe the cell membrane is of equal importance as is the complex content of the cells.
Page 14--- " I take the continuity of membranes as a broad hint that genes were expressed in a cellular context
from the very beginning and that structural heredity reaches equally far back in time."
His structural heredity is the plasma cell membrane structure.

Harrold also comments about electric currents in the cells.
Page 71--- "microorganisms have found many ways to apply the principle of energy coupling by ION CURRENTS to their particular circumstances.....All prokaryotes, without exception, generate and utilize ion currents in one way or another.....
members of all three domains rely on ION currents to couple energy sources to physiological work..."

IN Harold's book, he states the importance of the cell plasma membrane
but does not explore the topic at all.
You have reported on the complexities of the contents of the cells and then say:
It is beyond reasonable that something so complex and dependent on such organized behavior could be the result of a happy accident.
I am suggesting many many many accidents (incidents) over many many many years, decades, centuries, and millennia.

I am proposing that if lightning strikes can produce cell sized spherical double layers, then the PRIMORDIAL SOUP would get a giant boost
toward reproducibility out of countless random events by finding itself provided with tiny little houses already wired with electricity to do stuff.

I do thank you for your contribution and your time invested.
Jack

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