Wormholes and the EU

[Nonafel]

Greetings
Just real quick I'm an author writing what you could call hard science fantasy, IE pushing the limits of what we understand and sticking to reality.
Part of my research lead me to dead ends, the whole dark matter/dark energy nonsense is what started this quest of sorts, only to have the Electric Universe model answer pretty much all of them.

But that's my problem. I write and wrote so much of a setting based upon these ideas which I wasn't aware were... misinformed.
So I seek to try to find if specific aspects would fit within the EU model. As such, question one:

Wormholes, or whatever you want to call something that is used for travel from point A to point B nearly instantly, are based upon what many who adhere to the EU model as a hack.
Yet I wish to use them, or something similar, in my writing and keep it as close as possible to what would be considered hard science.
Please note I'm assuming the technology to create the portal(s) would work, I'm just trying to figure out if the EU model can't have wormholes/portals.
I'm no expert, but I found this document referencing a magnetic wormhole and though I could still use them if I'm sticking to the EU model
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12488
Furthermore my instinct is to use birkland currents to help tie the ends of two portals/wormholes together, or perhaps another interaction... but I just don't know enough and my searching for this information has been coming up dry

As such I see guidance on this matter, and to know if this thread should be in another category!
Either way, glad I happened across the EU and plasma cosmology theories, even if it causes me undo troubles with my work

[BeAChooser]

Hi. I don't think most EU proponents discount the possibility of black holes, white holes, or curved space. Gravity-only based calculations certainly lead to those possibilities. And additional spacial dimensions certainly seem in the realm of possibility. So I think you can safely envision a Sci-Fi universe with some sort of wormholes that one can use to travel about in an electric universe. What I (and many others, I think) object to is the mainstream ascribing all the phenomena observed out there to black holes and "winds" ... and gnomes like dark matter, dark energy, etc. I believe, for instance, that the jets that countless objects (from stars to galaxies) seem to have are not due to black holes and pseudoscientific magnetic reconnection, but to plasmoids. I believe that once you arrive at your destination through your wormhole, you'll find it's not just gravity but electromagnetism, electric current, and plasma related phenomena that dominate what you'll find, just like they seem to do in the solar system. You're space explorers will see Birkeland currents creating filaments. Electrically driven stars of one form or another. Stars and planetary systems that form as the result of electromagnetisms effect on plasmas. You get the idea?

[nick c]

Black holes, worm holes, dark matter, dark energy, and neutron stars are the end result of a faulty a priori assumption: that gravity is the predominant force of the Universe, and that most if not all of the observable universe can be explained within that context.

The Electric Universe is a paradigm shift. While not denying the existence of a force called "gravity" the premise of the EU is that most of the observable universe can be explained through the study of plasmas and electricity.

So, given that, in an Electric Universe there would be no such thing as any of the above mentioned objects, as there are better electrical/plasma explanations for what is observed.

The Electric Sky, by Scott is great place to start:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/resour ... y-preview/

[Brigit]

by Nonafel » Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:58 pm
"Wormholes, or whatever you want to call something that is used for travel from point A to point B nearly instantly, are based upon what many who adhere to the EU model as a hack.
Yet I wish to use them, or something similar, in my writing and keep it as close as possible to what would be considered hard science.
Please note I'm assuming the technology to create the portal(s) would work, I'm just trying to figure out if the EU model can't have wormholes/portals."

Another resource for basic Electric Universe concepts and physics, in addition to the book nick c suggested, is the site holoscience and especially the Synopsis there.
https://www.holoscience.com/wp/synopsis/

Under the section "Some Basics" Wal Thornhill briefly touches Einstein's theories of Special and General Relativity.
https://www.holoscience.com/wp/synopsis ... me-basics/

"The speed of light in galactic terms is exceedingly slow, requiring about 150,000 years to cross our galaxy. However, the astronomer Halton Arp has shown that the redshifts of entire galaxies are quantized which requires some form of near instantaneous, galaxy-wide communication at the sub-atomic level. There are now several reported experiments that demonstrate faster than light effects.

With the Special Theory gone, and the universe in communication with its parts effectively in real-time, there can be no time travel and space and time are independent. Common sense has always suggested that this was so. Einstein’s General Theory was devised to explain gravity. It attempts to discard the observed action-at-a-distance of gravity by proposing a counter-intuitive warping of space in the presence of massive objects.

This unnecessary complication of space is then added to the current metaphysical concepts of what constitutes the mass of an object. But space must also “warp” at near infinite speed to produce the observed planetary orbits."

So the good news, you could say, for your hard science fiction is that there is no speed limit in the Electric Universe. There is near-instantaneous travel of information and of forces. (No SR! (: )

The bad news is that there is no bending of space or of time (no GR), which is what your wormhole requires.

There could be instantaneous communication in this system, but not instantaneous physical travel.

Maybe if some atoms in two different locations were entangled and in instantaneous communication you could have some way of making a physical appearance in another place in the universe. But how to entangle atoms I have no clue.

In Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Fields, there is resonance between like systems, so that information may be exchanged between those systems regardless of distance. For example, once a crystal of a new compound has been synthesized in one place, it does so more quickly all over the world after that, according to his research. All molecules of that compound have a morphic field which learns and communicates with all other molecules of that compound, regardless of time and space.

Portals are still pretty wonderful literary devices though. (:

[jacmac]

BeaChooser:

Hi. I don't think most EU proponents discount the possibility of black holes, white holes, or curved space.

You could be correct about ......"most EU proponents"........ but
put me in the nick c column on worm holes and the others that nick c listed above.

Brigit:

Einstein’s General Theory was devised to explain gravity. It attempts to discard the observed action-at-a-distance of gravity by proposing a counter-intuitive warping of space in the presence of massive objects.

and

But space must also “warp” at near infinite speed to produce the observed planetary orbits."

I agree that Einstein seems to have come up with a new way to talk about the same thing (gravity or warped space)
but I am sticking with the slower light speed limit.
For gravity to work for a planet orbit, for instance, I don't think the attraction needs to be instant.
If a planet is orbiting there is an established relationship with the other body. What it is made of I don't know.
The idea of instant attraction would mean there is a need to send a signal or a pulse or something repeatedly in a digital fashion
to constantly INFORM, then re-inform, then re-inform, then.....etc.....the other body of your presence.
Like the old phone reception tv add: a guy outside takes a couple of steps then he says "can you hear me now"
I just like the analog version of gravity better.

And one more comment about warped space.
The term WARP refers to a bending or twisting of an object out of its NORMAL shape and into an area of space it did not previously exist in.
How does something that is three dimensional, and everywhere, warp ?
Does it warp into itself ? Does it increase its density where it warps into, and lower its density where it no longer is ?
It makes no sense to me.

Nonafel,
There are many things EU proponents disagree on, but "gravity does everything " is not one of them.
Good luck with your project.

[Nonafel]

I noticed I can't edit messages or even the subject line, an-->in for the title

Anyway I was looking for information that would help me describe what's going on without giving away the farm so to speak.
I'm not looking to preserve the idea of wormholes, merely the function. Even if it's not instant.

If it helps, I'm merely looking at this for a solar system to solar system method of travel, and for very short ranges as well.
My original goal was these long(ish) range portals would only drop you out on the outskirts of a solar system.
I had pointed entry near what is refereed to as the Keiper belt, but this also leads me to interact with the heliosphere of a solar systems stars

"A simple calculation shows that the sub-particles that form an electron must travel at a speed far in excess of the speed of light – some 2.5 million light-years per second, or from here to the far side of the Andromeda galaxy in one second!"

This helps at least show me that I don't have to worry about speed limits if I can somehow argue I'm using said sub-particles, and including the below for transmissions

Maybe if some atoms in two different locations were entangled and in instantaneous communication you could have some way of making a physical appearance in another place in the universe. But how to entangle atoms I have no clue.
In Rupert Sheldrake's Morphic Fields, there is resonance between like systems, so that information may be exchanged between those systems regardless of distance.

Of note, what I linked was something I was looking for feedback on, what they refer to in the paper as a "magnetic wormhole"
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep12488
My reading of it shows either this method works for shaping a magnetic field, or the guys working on it interpreted the results incorrectly. As such seeking better read minds on the matter.

you'll find it's not just gravity but electromagnetism, electric current, and plasma related phenomena that dominate what you'll find, just like they seem to do in the solar system...You get the idea?

I do, but I really am not certain what basis I can use electromagnetism, electric current, and plasma for my purposes in interstellar travel.
Thank you for the replies thus far and the links. They do help.

[Brigit]

by Nonafel » Tue Nov 16, 2021 3:29 pm
"If it helps, I'm merely looking at this for a solar system to solar system method of travel, and for very short ranges as well.
My original goal was these long(ish) range portals would only drop you out on the outskirts of a solar system.
I had pointed entry near what is refereed to as the Keiper belt, but this also leads me to interact with the heliosphere of a solar systems stars."

I was thinking about your problem and it occurred to me that in the Electric Universe, the worlds come to you.

Brown and red dwarf stars are abundant in the galaxy and appear to have many fascinating configurations of satellites. They are also more likely to be hospitable to life, so with all that in mind the earth could find itself in a crowd of brown dwarfs one morning. E presto. All that is needed is short range space travel.

Since they are so difficult to detect, a crazy protagonist would have his lonely work cut out for him.

Allynh is another sci fi writer. Maybe he will come by and lend a little expertise on getting light years away from home, within a plasma universe.

By the way, in trying to figure out how to entangle particles which are far far away, I researched how the transporters on the USS Enterprise worked. The traveler's molecules are sent in an energy beam to a new location.

Literally anything would be safer than that! (:

[jacmac]

You might try to travel with, or in, or on, the solar wind.
That gets you out to the boundary of the solar system.
The speeds are reasonable.
Then transfer through the "bubbles" just before the heliopause (that might be an exciting ride).
There should be an interstellar plasma stream outside our solar system to find and continue on to another star system.
Bon Voyage

Ps. I think the edit feature lasts for about one hour.

[nick c]

I noticed I can't edit messages or even the subject line, an-->in for the title

If you make a post it can be edited until someone makes the next post to that thread. Once someone posts a response the edit feature is no longer available. If there is no response the edit feature lasts for about an hour.
Moderators/Administrators can edit, however we don't normally do that unless there is some extenuating circumstances such as replacing a bad link, or a legal issue, violation of forum rules, grammar, and so on.
My advice is if you have made a mistake, and we all do, then post a follow up correction. Quote yourself and state your correction.
Otherwise, contact me via PM if you wish to edit something like the thread title, and your request will be reviewed.

[Brigit]

We had this interesting conversation earlier about applying Electric Universe science to space travel, and in particular, how to write "hard science fiction" within an EU framework.

The problem for a sci-fi writer is that without wormholes or some other "bending of space time," it is not possible to reach the other side of the Milky Way Galaxy, because even at the speed of light that would take 150,000 years.

I suggested that in the electric universe, the worlds would come to you. In the EU, it is possible that the earth could find itself surrounded by a cloud of brown and red dwarf stars, each with a unique configuration of planets within its orbit.

A month or two later in the news, astronomers released this announcement:

"Using observations and archival data from several of NSF's NOIRLab's observatories, together with observations from telescopes around the world and in orbit, astronomers have discovered at least 70 new free-floating planets—planets that wander through space without a parent star—in a nearby region of the Milky Way. This is the largest sample of such planets found in a single group and it nearly doubles the number known over the entire sky."

The only problem left would be to find a way to reach this "nearby" region of the Milky Way.

In this case, the protagonist of the hard science fiction story needs only travel 420 light years away, which is still too far to be accomplished in a lifetime, so the author would need to move the brown and red dwarfs much closer, perhaps 1 or 2 light years away.

Another solution would be to have them less than a light year away. These are also very realistic possibilities for the Electric Universe.

[Brigit]

I have thought about the main problem for space travel in the Plasma Universe, and that is that space is full of plasma and any traveler at very high speeds, say the speed of light, would not be in a perfect vacuum but would be traveling through particles within at least every cubic centimeter, or at least every cubic meter.

It wouldn't work. Not at the speeds you require to get to another planet within a year or two.

But an even greater problem is that of charge.

Based on the cometary science of the Electric Universe, any body spending a great deal of time in one region of space, and entering a region of a different charge, may begin to form a coma and electrically discharge in streamers, like a comet.

But since we are talking about writing science fiction, I thought that perhaps the very problem with space travel in the EU could become an asset.

Suppose your space craft actually used an oscillation similar to a capacitor, in which it built up a separate charge from the plasma region it travelled through. If the capacitance was calculated correctly, once the space craft had reached high speeds, it would be able to build charge and discharge it, not only to keep from becoming overly charged wrt its environment, but also to use the electricity to run additional operations on the ship, or to propel it further.

[allynh]

I have been playing with that for my stuff as well.

I have an aether drive that acts like the classic "space drive" like in Star Trek with their "warp" drive.

The ship sits in a bubble of aether. The bubble moves at any speed, the ship floats inside the bubble not picking up kinetic energy. The bubble flows through space, so avoids hitting anything.

- They "bleed" off energy to equalize the charge and the velocity to be in orbit when the bubble of aether is turned off, to avoid the charge problems you mentioned.

Instead of "wormholes" I mentioned the "Alderson Drive" over at:

https://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3 ... 6220#p6218

In Ken MacLeod's series, Engines of Light Trilogy, he uses a Light speed drive. The ship is instantly moving at the speed of light, like a photon. No time passes inside the ship, yet it still takes 150k years to cross the galaxy.

- The ships lift off from the planet, and arrive at the next, no time passing inside, so they don't need life support.

I see this working best if the stars are close like in a Globular Cluster or an Open Cluster like the Pleiadeas, where the stars are light months away. Globular Clusters have millions of stars in a small volume, and Open Clusters have thousands. Think of one like a continent, and the other like an archipelago, with the volume of space where we are as isolated islands out in the Pacific.

Most civilizations would develop in the Globular and Open Clusters, ignoring isolated places like our Solar System.

Fun stuff.

[Cargo]

You almost had it okay except when you played with time, which is irrelevant mostly except as a measure to keep track of.
Star Trek is Right, in so many ways. The 'deflector shield' facing forward and the two nacelles create a birkliend aligned dual coil field around the ship which puts it in phase with a current. Some currents are faster then Light, which is only 1% of the Universe really.

This device can only operate in common space, outside harsh planet atmospheres or high solar 'winds'. This is why the Impulse Engine was used. There is a lot of cannon from many series which contradict of course, but the common theme was that Warp was impossible or at least extremely dangerous and foolish to try to close to other EU fields. There is one engine for real space travel, and another for outer space travel. Usually..

Wormholes don't work, except out in space between field align stable chains (something which could break at any moment, like the novel Hellhole iirc, or was it ), perhaps akin to the near solar orbit transport rings that basic planet bound ships have to use fuel to get to.

Anyway, my shelf is full of books from TOR. Lot's of great work, best of luck to yours.