Sunward Electrons

[Michael Mozina]

Moreover, I am not sure there is a significant difference in the cosmic ray spectrum between the inside and outside of the heliosphere. If such a difference doesn't exist or is minimal (which I suspect to be the case), one can obviously claim that the heliosphere boundary is not a double layer. Which I do. Instead, I claim that it is a current sheet.

http://www.solarsystemcentral.com/heliosphere_page.html

Can you explain to me how this information helps (or hinders) your position? I think I'm guilty of using the terms "double layer" and "current sheet" interchangeably at times, particularly as it relates to the heliosphere, so I'd appreciate you expanding upon your explanation of the difference between those two terms as it relates to the heliosphere and cosmic rays.

Perhaps the easiest way to show that it's a current sheet is by using an analogy with the Earth's magnetosphere (or any other really). Here we have two current sheets of this sort: the "bow shock" sheet and the "magnetopause" sheet. The plasma regions they separate differ in temperature, density and magnetization, which is also the case (as observations show) in both the heliopause and the heliospheric bow shock.
An easy way to understand why that's the case is to consider magnetization: if you have different magnetic fields at opposite sides of some boundary, there should be a current somewhere to make it possible. Ergo, the boundary itself is a current sheet. And double layer is a different phenomenon entirely.

Thanks for that. I agree with you that there must be currents involved, and it's probably more appropriate and scientifically accurate to refer to the heliosphere as a current sheet.

[jacmac]

This from Michael's link above: http://www.solarsystemcentral.com/heliosphere_page.html

In December, 2012 NASA's Voyager 1 spacecraft entered a new region at the frontier of our solar system that scientists think is the final area the spacecraft has to cross before reaching interstellar space. Much to their surprise, scientists did not previously know this region was there. Astro-physicists refer to this new region as a magnetic highway for charged particles because our sun's magnetic field lines are connected to the interstellar magnetic field lines. ...... This magnetic region is unlike any Voyager has been in before. It is about 10 times more intense than inside the termination shock.

This magnetic pathway allows lower-energy charged particles that originate inside the Heliosphere to move out and allows higher-energy particles from outside to enter. (Before Voyager entered this region, the charged particles bounced around in all directions, as if trapped inside a dome.)

This site claims the solar and ISM magnetic fields are connected, but "ten times more intense". (whatever more intense means )
Perhaps there is a combination of both a sheet current and a double layer ?
AS with everything else in our solar system things are complex.

[Michael Mozina]

This from Michael's link above: http://www.solarsystemcentral.com/heliosphere_page.html

In December, 2012 NASA's Voyager 1 spacecraft entered a new region at the frontier of our solar system that scientists think is the final area the spacecraft has to cross before reaching interstellar space. Much to their surprise, scientists did not previously know this region was there. Astro-physicists refer to this new region as a magnetic highway for charged particles because our sun's magnetic field lines are connected to the interstellar magnetic field lines. ...... This magnetic region is unlike any Voyager has been in before. It is about 10 times more intense than inside the termination shock.

This magnetic pathway allows lower-energy charged particles that originate inside the Heliosphere to move out and allows higher-energy particles from outside to enter. (Before Voyager entered this region, the charged particles bounced around in all directions, as if trapped inside a dome.)

This site claims the solar and ISM magnetic fields are connected, but "ten times more intense". (whatever more intense means )
Perhaps there is a combination of both a sheet current and a double layer ?
AS with everything else in our solar system things are complex.

In actual physics parlance that translates to ten times more current flowing through those regions, but since since current and electric fields are taboo topics in astronomy, their terminology is 'dumbed down" to magnetic field intensity, with no mention of currents at all.

You certainly could be right that it's a combination of current sheets and double layers.

[Solar]

• Figure 21
  https://i.ibb.co/937bXmL/heliosphere-vi ... -scott.png
  The virtual cathode at the Sun's heliosheath is an electrical phenomenon, as evidenced in part by: 1. the sudden standstill or "collapse" of the solar wind protons; 2. the reversal of the electric field at the heliospheric boundary; 3. the passing of the Voyagers into denser plasma; 4. the acceleration of positive ions away from the Sun

Please see "Space News: Voyager 1 Mystery: Solar Wind Ceases"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98GdebTOIak
dur 6:32

Unfortunately it appears that the EU’s “virtual cathode” in the form of a “wall of electrons” by way of their reinterpretation of the “stagnation region”; might be in trouble. So is the official interpretation of a “stagnation region” itself in trouble. There are discrepancies that are not understood at this time that are said to "casts doubt on the existence of the stagnation region reported from V1 observations" :

We present anisotropy results for anomalous cosmic-ray protons in the energy range ∼0.5–35 MeV from Cosmic Ray Subsystem (CRS) data collected during calibration roll maneuvers for the magnetometer instrument when Voyager 2 (V2) was in the inner heliosheath. We use a new technique to derive for the first time the radial component of the anisotropy vector from CRS data. We find that the CRS-derived radial solar wind speeds, when converted from the radial components of the anisotropy vectors via the Compton–Getting (C–G) effect, generally agree with those similarly derived speeds from the Low Energy Charged Particle experiment using 28–43 keV data. However, they often differ significantly from the radial solar wind speeds measured directly by the Plasma Science (PLS) instrument. There are both periods when the C–G-derived radial solar wind speeds are significantly higher than those measured by PLS and times when they are significantly lower. The differences are not expected nor explained, but it appears that after a few years in the heliosheath the V2 radial solar wind speeds derived from the C–G method underestimate the true speeds as the spacecraft approaches the heliopause. We discuss the implications of this observation for the stagnation region reported along the Voyager 1 trajectory as it approached the heliopause inferred using the C–G method. - No Stagnation Region before the Heliopause at Voyager 1? Inferences from New Voyager 2 Results: A. C. Cummings , E. C. Stone , J. D. Richardson , B. C. Heikkila et al - The Astrophysical Journal, 906:126 (15pp), 2021 January 10

Recall that the plasma wave sensor (PLS) aboard V1 stopped working in 1980. Voyager 1 could not directly measure plasma velocities. A different method was used that involved purposefully and periodically rolling Voyager 1, a technique normally used to calibrate its magnetometer ("magrols"), so that data from a different device, the LEPC, could be used in conjunction with "Compton getting effect" in order to INFER solar wind velocities. Data from that technique with V1, appeared to indicate that the solar wind initially slowed and eventually went to zero km s−1. This is what induced the idea of there being a "stagnation region".

Later, here comes Voyager 2 probe with a woking PLS, at roughly the same distance but different location of course. Data from the PLS onboard Voyager 2 was measuring radial speeds near 80 km s−1. That's odd compared to magrols/LEPC/Compton getting technique. So, they took Voyager 2 through the same "magrol"/LEPC/Compton getting technique.

It turns out that the two different spacecraft V1 & V2 (using different energy rages) get the same radial velocities but the values "are not always in agreement with the direct measurements from the working plasma instrument on V2."

"PLS on V2 did not observe a real trend of VR toward zero across the heliosheath. Thus, the question is raised about whether the trend in VR inferred by LECP at V1 was a real trend of the radial solar wind speed or not."

Why are the "magrol"/LEPC/Compton getting techniques seeing the trend towards zero km s−1 when the only working PLS instrument detects radial speeds near 80 km s−1? There were a period of time 2009-2010 when the CRS and LEPC values were some 2.5 times higher than the working PLS aboard V2. With Voyager 1 it was thought that there may have been contamination from Oxygen but that seems to have been ruled out. Is there some other feature of the solar wind, or cosmic rays causing this? Is there something wrong with the technique that infers radial velocity?

No answers yet.

[jacmac]

The virtual cathode at the Sun's heliosheath is an electrical phenomenon,

This is sort of a side question to the main thread:
If the heliosheath is VIRTUAL, should we not call the sun a VIRTUAL Anode ?
And what do people take the word Virtual to mean ?

[paladin17]

The virtual cathode at the Sun's heliosheath is an electrical phenomenon,

This is sort of a side question to the main thread:
If the heliosheath is VIRTUAL, should we not call the sun a VIRTUAL Anode ?
And what do people take the word Virtual to mean ?

I propose the term "dark cathode".

[nick c]

[The virtual cathode at the Sun's heliosheath is an electrical phenomenon,
This is sort of a side question to the main thread:
If the heliosheath is VIRTUAL, should we not call the sun a VIRTUAL Anode ?
And what do people take the word Virtual to mean ?

I propose the term "dark cathode".

Semantics. Dark or virtual, take your pick. It is called virtual because there is not an actual object acting as the cathode. I like "cathodeless discharge". How does that work? Actually it is not unusual, nor is it an ad hoc addition to the model:

....cathodeless discharges are not unknown. ... Transmission lines carrying high-voltage direct current electric trolley wires, for example discharge almost continuously to the surrounding air. In the case of a positive (anode) wire electrons ever present in the Earth's atmosphere drift toward the wire, attracted by its positive charge. As they penetrate the increasingly intense electric field close to the wire, the electrons gain energy from the field and are accelerated to energies great enough to initiate electron avalanches as they collide with and ionize air molecules. The avalanching electrons, in turn, intensify the ionization immediately surrounding the wire. Positive ions, formed in the process, drift away from the wire in the electric field. In this way, a more or less steady discharge is maintained, although there is no tangible object other than the surrounding air that can be considered a cathode. Such a discharge is classed as a corona discharge. The region of intense activity close to the wire is referred to as the coronal envelope. And since so few "cathode" electrons are involved, and since they move so quickly through the outer region of the discharge, most of the current in this outer region is carried by the positive ions." (ibid., p. 7).
The Electric Sun model provides a cathodeless discharge centred on the Sun (as the anode) with two key observed characteristics of the Sun: the solar corona (what irony in using the same term, although a corona usually means a discharge at atmospheric pressure!) and the solar wind....

[Bold Added]

from "Summary of Ralph Juergens Electric Sun Model"


Here is an interesting discussion of various Electric Sun models:
https://vixra.org/pdf/1711.0293v1.pdf

[Brigit]

by nick c » Thu Jan 28, 2021 10:26 am

"Transmission lines carrying high-voltage direct current electric trolley wires, for example discharge almost continuously to the surrounding air. In the case of a positive (anode) wire electrons ever present in the Earth's atmosphere drift toward the wire, attracted by its positive charge. As they penetrate the increasingly intense electric field close to the wire, the electrons gain energy from the field and are accelerated to energies great enough to initiate electron avalanches as they collide with and ionize air molecules. The avalanching electrons, in turn, intensify the ionization immediately surrounding the wire. Positive ions, formed in the process, drift away from the wire in the electric field. In this way, a more or less steady discharge is maintained, although there is no tangible object other than the surrounding air that can be considered a cathode. Such a discharge is classed as a corona discharge." ~Wal Thornhill

Yes, you are so right to point that out nick c -- the corona discharge from a wire is the alternate way that the cathode is identified in the Electric Universe book, on page 67.

In fact, I did want to bring up the corona discharge model earlier, esp. in response to jacmac's comment some time ago. We were discussing the instability of the double layers surrounding the solar discharge (see Fig 21, pg 6)
(and the comment following,
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... t=75#p4212 .)

If you watch Lowell Morgan's outstanding presentation on the series of experiments and observations of anode discharges in low pressure plasma discharges, you will notice that he says that there was no cathode. He said, "The world itself became the cathode"; and "the metal surrounding the anode is the ground."

Lowell Morgan: The Physics of Plasmas | EU2015
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88g_2tIHN-0
dur 23:33

Dr. Lowell Morgan said that they were able to get the spherical double layers surrounding the anode discharge to last for minutes at a time. So in a self-organized plasma it is a configuration that the plasma prefers.

[Brigit]

Now in the case of the corona discharge surrounding an anode, those experiments are super-interesting. It's some of the most entrancing video on all of y-tube. In some of Lowell Morgan's proof-of-concept experiments with Monty Childes, they did not have a cathode. If we just focus in on that one detail of the experiment (which I hate to do because the whole discussion of plasma behavior is so enlightening), we see that when all of the voltage is applied to the anode, a corona forms and the electrons are drawn in, and the electron cascading that follows causes even more ionization. It's lovely.

And there's so much more to the experiment. Notice how the anode spots or tufts themselves are columns of positive ions flowing into the plasma from the anode. Just like the Sun.

However, may I point out that at the time we had company. And I did not think that it was going to be very helpful to bring up the corona model of the anode sun. The question about how the sun came to be the source of all of the voltage (as the anode in the experimental set-up) would immediately arise. This would force us, in an already long thread devoted to the externally powered sun, to introduce the sun's electrical birth in a plasma z-pinch. Instead of bringing the sun's electrical formation into the discussion, I felt it was better to demonstrate the cellular nature of the sun's plasma sheath as it interfaces with the filamentary plasma of the interstellar medium. This seems uncontroversial to me.

The interstellar medium is rich and of a different characteristic than the sun's plasma environment. A plasma double layer at this boundary is not an unreasonable claim. And in the event that there is a plasma double layer surrounding the sun, the Birkeland current local to the sun is a constant, measurable supply of sunward electrons. Plus, it is perhaps a natural outflow of the model that the Birkeland current supplying the sunward electrons would also exhibit a cyclical input of power to the sun, resulting in a 22-year sunspot cycle. I do not think that the sunspot cycle arising from randomly arriving cosmic rays from all over the sky is very likely.

Remember, we had a visitor. And I think it is reasonable to demonstrate that the source of the sunward electrons is sufficient to light up the sun. As far as the sun's electrical formation in a plasma z-pinch, and the interesting plasma structures and filaments at the sun's poles, and the solar plasma circuit -- those subjects should come up only after the current is shown to be sufficient to cause the sun to exhibit glow and arc plasma discharges at the photosphere, chromosphere, and corona.

Besides, the Galactic Federation forbids me from leap-frogging a visitor too quickly down the path of discovery.

ref: The Virtue of Heresy: Confessions of a Dissident Astronomer
Hilton Ratcliffe, 2008

[jacmac]

Brigit:

If you watch Lowell Morgan's outstanding presentation on the series of experiments and observations of anode discharges in low pressure plasma discharges, you will notice that he says that there was no cathode. He said, "The world itself became the cathode"; and "the metal surrounding the anode is the ground."

In the graph Lowell Morgan uses, at about 13 minutes, the labels at the top seem to be placed in error.
From left to right they are: Internal, Chromosphere, Photosphere,...with the Corona labeled below.
Am I missing something or is this someone's mistake ?
It should be: Internal, Photosphere, Chromosphere, ... then Corona. Just checking.

Brigit:

The question about how the sun came to be the source of all of the voltage (as the anode in the experimental set-up) would immediately arise. This would force us......to introduce the sun's electrical birth in a plasma z-pinch. Instead of bringing the sun's electrical formation into the discussion, I felt it was better to demonstrate the cellular nature of the sun's plasma sheath as it interfaces with the filamentary plasma of the interstellar medium. This seems uncontroversial to me.

If the internal sun is not to be taken as a perpetual provider of voltage, we then need to provide an external source to maintain an externally powered electric anode sun. In agreement with your "cellular nature of the sun's plasma sheath" we then must say the external source comes from, or through, the very same cellular plasma sheath that is acting as the virtual cathode to the anode sun.
This is, a re-statement of reasons I have previously used to draw attention to discussion of the use of anode/cathode terms and the hunt for the electric circuit. In the Safire project and in other electric circuits these terms make sense.

The solar system is however different.
I offer the "cell" nature of the solar system also, but am trying to promote more attention to the self organizing nature and abilities of the plasma itself. If one can imagine the plasma density of the Inter Stellar Medium existing through out the solar system, and then think of all that plasma greatly concentrated in and around the sun; that scenario is where my thoughts are.
The sun discharges to the heliosheath.....
Is that the end of the story or the beginning ?

[Solar]

This description has historically been referred to as "Dielectric Breakdown":

....cathodeless discharges are not unknown. ... Transmission lines carrying high-voltage direct current electric trolley wires, for example discharge almost continuously to the surrounding air. In the case of a positive (anode) wire electrons ever present in the Earth's atmosphere drift toward the wire, attracted by its positive charge. As they penetrate the increasingly intense electric field close to the wire, the electrons gain energy from the field and are accelerated to energies great enough to initiate electron avalanches as they collide with and ionize air molecules. The avalanching electrons, in turn, intensify the ionization immediately surrounding the wire. Positive ions, formed in the process, drift away from the wire in the electric field. In this way, a more or less steady discharge is maintained, although there is no tangible object other than the surrounding air that can be considered a cathode. Such a discharge is classed as a corona discharge. The region of intense activity close to the wire is referred to as the coronal envelope. And since so few "cathode" electrons are involved, and since they move so quickly through the outer region of the discharge, most of the current in this outer region is carried by the positive ions." (ibid., p. 7).
The Electric Sun model provides a cathodeless discharge centred on the Sun (as the anode) with two key observed characteristics of the Sun: the solar corona (what irony in using the same term, although a corona usually means a discharge at atmospheric pressure!) and the solar wind....

"Electrical breakdown or dielectric breakdown is a process that occurs when an electrical insulating material, subjected to a high enough voltage, suddenly becomes an electrical conductor and electric current flows through it." Wikipedia et al

The relationship "can be considered a cathode" but, save by analogy, it isn't. I'm not throwing out classics such as:

Dielectric phenomena in high voltage engineering by Peek, F. W. (Frank William), b. 1881

[Brigit]

Inre: physics of plasmas

Lowell Morgan: The Physics of Plasmas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88g_2tIHN-0
dur 23:33

@jacmac, yes labels appear to be switched on that graph. I believe the speaker made it clear, or mentioned several times that he knows next to nothing about the Sun.

He is presenting experiments and a paper on the physics of a plasma discharge surrounding an anode. That's all.

(If I were to guess, he is not getting involved in the affairs of the Solar Physics Cartel.)

[Brigit]

Where angels fear to tread.

[Michael Mozina]

It seems to me that the only way to make real progress in understanding solar physics would be to duplicate *all* of Birkeland's laboratory work with modern measuring equipment, take a lot of information down from such experiments in terms of particle flow patterns in the atmosphere inside the chamber, and compare the various results to what we measure in space.

From my perspective at least, the 'dead give away' as to whether the electrode surface of the sun acts as a anode or a cathode with respect to the heliosphere, is the solar 'strah', electrons beams which we measure coming from the sun. I don't recall SAFIRE even mentioning such a process inside their experiments, so I'm convinced that we would also need to experiment with a cathode solar surface to see how that model compares that important respect. I can only go by Birkeland's experimental results with a cathode model, but he measured and observed cathode "rays" coming from the sphere, as well as positive ions coming from the surface of the sphere.

It also seems to me that the "fastest" transfer of electrical current takes place within the cathode rays, and positively charged particles slamming into our solar system at close to the speed of light. Whatever happens at the boundary of the heliosphere, it has to take that type of current into account as well to get a full picture of what's happening in space with respect to the flow of current, through various current sheets and/or double layers in space.

[Brigit]

Let me see if I can at least present a case for sunward electrons supplied by the Birkeland current local to the sun. That is, as the heliosheath surrounding the sun moves through the interstellar medium, it picks up electrons from the interstellar plasma, and directs them radially towards the sun.

Rather than work out the sun's origins, or its age, or the filamentary formations at the sun's poles which would complete the circuit, let me at least give some situational evidence for the double layer at the sun's heliosheath as a vital celestial object in its own right.