LIGO: Water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

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Michael Mozina
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

LIGO releases a catalog of supposed GW signals.

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Sun Jan 24, 2021 2:17 am

https://phys.org/news/2021-01-largest-e ... ional.html
One of humankind's greatest achievements was made on 14th Sept 2015 when the first direct detection of a gravitational wave event was made using the aLIGO observatories in Washington State and Louisana in the U.S.
I would say that one of the greatest examples of scientific fraud that was ever perpetrated in physics was the day that LIGO submitted their published paper on that particular event and LIGO falsely claimed in that paper that no vetoes were present within an hour of the supposed GW signal, when in fact that very signal was vetoed with "high confidence" within 18 seconds of it being uploaded to the GraceDB database.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/E ... fbf96907cc

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1 ... 34001/meta
”No data quality vetoes were active within an hour of the event.”
https://www.ligo.org/magazine/LIGO-maga ... tended.pdf
LLO – September 14, 2015, 09:53:51 UTC – Alex Urban, Reed Essick:The Coherent WaveBurst (cWB) data analysis algorithm detected GW150914. An entry was recorded in the central transient event database (GraceDB), triggering a slew of automated follow-up procedures. Within three seconds, asynchronous automated data quality (iDQ) glitch-detection follow-up processes began reporting results. Fourteen seconds after cWB uploaded the candidate, iDQ processes at LLO reported with high confidence that the event was due to a glitch. The event was labeled as “rejected” 4 seconds afterward. Automated alerts ceased.
All i can say now is that LIGO better deliver on it's promise to produce additional examples of multimessenger astronomy in the 04 run or all hell is likely to break loose.

Michael Mozina
Posts: 2295
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

It should be an interesting next year or two in astronomy

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:58 pm

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/news/ligo20210716

It looks like LIGO won't fire up and start a new operational run again until the end of the year, but I'm curious to find out of they will ever replicate a "multimessenger astronomy' event.

This seems to be "make or break" time for LIGO. For years now they've been promising that their detection results could be corroborated by external hardware, and for years now they've failed on that promise. The one multimessenger event they cite shows about a 2 second difference between the arrival of a gamma ray signal and their supposed "gravitational wave" signal. The gamma ray detection was published *first* too. That's not all that convincing from my perspective.

Assuming LIGO is actually observing gravitational waves from distant sources, the LIGO team *should* have the ability to replicate their own NS/NS events and deliver on their promise of multimessenger astronomy.

If they can't do so in this observation run, one cannot help but believe that the whole LIGO claim is bogus. With three detectors they should be able to pinpoint a *specific* location (rather than "somewhere out there" like the last time, and they should be able to deliver on multimessenger astronomy on a regular basis.

I'm not holding my breath. This whole LIGO claim has all the earmarks of another Joseph Webber scenario, only the detectors now cost hundreds of millions of dollars to "test" their claims. The pressure is on.....

BeAChooser
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Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:24 am

Re: It should be an interesting next year or two in astronomy

Unread post by BeAChooser » Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:44 pm

Michael Mozina wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 10:58 pm the detectors now cost hundreds of millions of dollars to "test" their claims
Hundreds of millions, Michael?

The European Einstein Telescope (gravitational detector) alone is projected to cost $2 billion dollars!

LISA (a space based gravitational wave detector) has a projected cost of over $1 billion.

Cosmic Explorer (a proposed US follow on to LIGO) has a projected cost of $2 billion.

The gnomists aren't thinking in the hundreds of millions.

jackokie
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:10 am

Re: LIGO: Water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

Unread post by jackokie » Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:40 pm

@BeAChooser You're just not looking at it the right way. They're doing a pretty good job of spreading the juice around. In these troubled times steady employment is not to be disparaged, and if they're able to torture the data to produce a "signal', then that's the cherry on top.
Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once.

Michael Mozina
Posts: 2295
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: LIGO: Water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:01 am

jackokie wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:40 pm @BeAChooser You're just not looking at it the right way. They're doing a pretty good job of spreading the juice around. In these troubled times steady employment is not to be disparaged, and if they're able to torture the data to produce a "signal', then that's the cherry on top.
Well, be that as it may, LIGO will eventually have to deliver on routine multimessenger astronomy events or even fellow astronomers will not take them seriously anymore. You can only cry black hole wolf so many times until people just stop believing you.

BeAChooser
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Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:24 am

Re: LIGO: Water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

Unread post by BeAChooser » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:46 am

Michael Mozina wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:01 am LIGO will eventually have to deliver on routine multimessenger astronomy events or even fellow astronomers will not take them seriously anymore.
Sure they will, Michael. Mainstream astronomers are "woke" ... in an astronomical sense. Just like mainstream climatologists are "woke". Being "woke" means that nothing has to make sense to be believed. Belief in the narrative is all that matters. A narrative that keeps the money rolling in.

Michael Mozina
Posts: 2295
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: LIGO: Water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Tue Sep 27, 2022 10:06 am

https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/news/ligo20220617
https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/system/new ... 1655496295

Well, not surprisingly, the startup of the 04 LIGO observation run has been delayed again, but it's getting closer, slowly but surely.

I think I'll use this pregnant pause to note that Virgo seems to have been upgraded more significantly than LIGO, and upgraded to the point that it should be quite helpful in pinpointing any sort of directional components of an observed "event" to a relatively constrained region of the sky, instead of a large circular 'swath' in previous runs. That's very encouraging IMO.

Kagra still looks to be a bit of a bust in that respect in the 04 run, unless the distance to the event is quite small. Even that small window of opportunity may prove interesting however if the 'event' is actually caused from a more localized process, like an upper atmospheric discharge, which occurs very close to Kagra, and is also observed in the other three detectors.

It should be noted that to date, the only supposed NS/NS merger observed by LIGO included a 2 second delay between the LIGO signal (observed in only one detector) and the observed gamma ray burst. In that instance LIGO couldn't localize the event to a single "point/region" in the sky, just a relatively large 'swath'. Lots of room for error/coincidence in that one event which shouldn't necessarily be true in any future NS/NS mergers, presuming LIGO signals do of course have anything at all to do with NS/NS mergers.

*If* LIGO is correct this 04 run seems like do or die time for LIGO. They 'should' be able to pickup NS/NS mergers at fairly large distances and they "should" be able to isolate their location with a significantly greater amount of directional precision. In short, the potential for a 'coincidental" gamma ray burst should be significantly reduced if all three primary gravitation wave detectors pick up the signal.

My "prediction", as a LIGO skeptic/heretic of course, is that the 04 run will *not* produce any observed NS/NS mergers, just bucket loads of additional bogus claims about invisible black hole mergers resulting in no "multimessenger" events.

The "scientific" part of me actually hopes that LIGO/Virgo proves me wrong in the 04 run, but alas, after they flat out lied in their very first paper about no vetoes being present within an hour of the original event, when in fact the signal in question was vetoed within 18 seconds, I have no faith at all in the LIGO technology or their "word". I'm sure the 'signals' they observe are quite "real", but I suspect they're caused by high atmospheric discharges (whistler waves), not gravitational waves.

The box is closing in on LIGO IMO. As more detectors become upgraded to the point of directional usefulness, the potential of 'coincidental' gamma ray bursts occurring during LIGO signals becomes much smaller. Even if a gamma ray bursts occurs in space, it's not likely to line up well with a whistler wave observed in multiple LIGO/Virgo detectors, even if it's 'close' in terms of timing (2 seconds).

On the other hand, if LIGO *is* actually observing gravitational waves from great distances, it's possible that waves from a NS/NS merger could be picked up in all three primary detectors, and align beautifully with the resulting gamma ray burst in terms of location and timing. They could even convince a hardcore skeptic like me if their technology works as advertised.

Stay tuned.

jackokie
Posts: 251
Joined: Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:10 am

Re: LIGO: Water water everywhere, but not a drop to drink.

Unread post by jackokie » Tue Sep 27, 2022 4:01 pm

@Michael Mozina Hope springs eternal, but the tenacity of the standard modelers in ignoring the challenges to the Big Bang argues against the gravity wave investigators suddenly discovering ethics and having a religious conversion to science.
Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once.

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