Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.
BeAChooser
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Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 2:24 am

Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by BeAChooser » Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:15 am

https://e-catworld.com/2021/10/26/aureo ... nd-method/
Aureon Energy Patent: “Plasma heating apparatus, system and method”

Abstract: A plasma heating apparatus including a boiler vessel for holding water to be heated, a cathode housed in the vessel, the cathode defining a watertight cathode chamber isolated from the water in the vessel, and, an anode housed in the cathode chamber, the anode including an internal passage for receiving a gas from outside of the vessel when the passage is connected to a gas supply, and wherein the anode is connectable to a power source for receiving power for generating a plasma in the cathode chamber. In another aspect, the present disclosure relates to a heat or power generating system or plant including the plasma heating apparatus.
Is this a LENR nuclear process (taking place in a double layer plasma) using hydrogen to heat water?

This sounds interesting and of importance to the electric universe …

jacmac
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Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by jacmac » Sun Oct 31, 2021 4:12 pm

Great find !
The SAFIRE people have been busy.
It certainly looks like a LENR situation to my ignorant self.
It could be a very big deal in power generation.
Good luck to them and congratulations for their discoveries.

jacmac
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Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by jacmac » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:16 pm

This also could influence and confirm our understanding of the sun.
SAFIRE uses plasma double layers to achieve their results.
I have proposed more attention to the solar Double Layer we call the Chromosphere.
General discussions on this forum, and in talks by Wal Thornhill and Donald Scott,
seem to talk only about a solar discharge but do not get into the solar double layer.
We need to understand how a double layer forms and maintains itself to be the sun.
Also, if a similar LENR does happen on our sun then there should be less required input of electric charged plasma
to explain how the sun works then previously thought.
Jack

BeAChooser
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Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by BeAChooser » Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:53 pm

jacmac wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:16 pm
This also could influence and confirm our understanding of the sun.
SAFIRE uses plasma double layers to achieve their results.
I have proposed more attention to the solar Double Layer we call the Chromosphere.
General discussions on this forum, and in talks by Wal Thornhill and Donald Scott,
seem to talk only about a solar discharge but do not get into the solar double layer.
We need to understand how a double layer forms and maintains itself to be the sun.
Also, if a similar LENR does happen on our sun then there should be less required input of electric charged plasma
to explain how the sun works then previously thought.
Jack
Yes. I suspect double layers and plasmoids have a lot to do with what is observed happening out there (not only in the sun).

Michael Mozina
Posts: 2279
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:04 am

jacmac wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 5:16 pm
This also could influence and confirm our understanding of the sun.
SAFIRE uses plasma double layers to achieve their results.
I have proposed more attention to the solar Double Layer we call the Chromosphere.
General discussions on this forum, and in talks by Wal Thornhill and Donald Scott,
seem to talk only about a solar discharge but do not get into the solar double layer.
We need to understand how a double layer forms and maintains itself to be the sun.
Also, if a similar LENR does happen on our sun then there should be less required input of electric charged plasma
to explain how the sun works then previously thought.
Jack
One of the many things that the mainstream has yet to "explain" about solar physics are the layering and temperature patterns of the solar atmosphere. The sun's outer most layer, the corona is assumed to be *millions* of degrees Kelvin, whereas the chromosphere is only about 10-20+ Kelvin, and the photosphere is around 6 thousand Kelvin. Double layers seems like a "natural' explanation regardless of whether SAFIRE's anode experiments have direct application to solar physics, but it certainly does produce them.

I'm personally inclined to believe that the sun's atmosphere is mass separated by the elements with the lightest elements out in the corona, the helium located predominantly in the chromosphere, and all the heavier elements, including neon making up the photosphere.

Michael Mozina
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:08 am

This is by the way consistent with measurements of solar wind ions from the sun, which are mostly composed of H+, He+2, and He+1, in that specific order. The lightest and most positively charged ions in the solar atmosphere are the most likely to be affected by the electron beams which are flowing from the sun.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sune ... trahl.html

Birkeland's cathode solar model predicts all these observations and more.

I'm wondering if the SAFIRE program's future is more likely to be applicable to sustained fusion. The production of elements in their experiments remains to be 'explained' properly.

Michael Mozina
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:19 am

Michael Mozina wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 5:08 am
This is by the way consistent with measurements of solar wind ions from the sun, which are mostly composed of H+, He+2, and He+1, in that specific order. The lightest and most positively charged ions in the solar atmosphere are the most likely to be affected by the electron beams which are flowing from the sun.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/sune ... trahl.html

Birkeland's cathode solar model predicts all these observations and more.

I'm wondering if the SAFIRE program's future is more likely to be applicable to sustained fusion. The production of elements in their experiments remains to be 'explained' properly.
And by the way......

During his cathode core experiments, Birkeland noticed that parts of the metal cathode sphere were being deposited onto the glass walls of his experiments, creating a type of "soot', particularly around the areas containing grease, where they were being trapped by the grease itself. He ultimately attributed this process to what we would today refer to as "sputtering".

One then has to wonder if it's also possible for parts of SAFIRE's "cathode chamber" to be stripped off (sputtered from) the cathode chamber walls, and deposited onto the anode sphere. I'd be inclined to believe that any additional elements found on the surface of the anode of SAFIRE could come from the chamber walls themselves. It may not be a 'transmutation" process so much as a mechanical 'redistribution" process. The amount of heat being generated at such 'modest' energy inputs is interesting however.

jacmac
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Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by jacmac » Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:26 pm

Michael M:
whereas the chromosphere is only about 10-20+ Kelvin,
I don't understand your 10-20+ number Michael.
The chromosphere is about 4,400 kelvin in its lower region and shoots way up to about
400,000 kelvin near the uppermost region; according to ESO.org

Also Don Scott labels the chromosphere as a double layer in his diagrams of the solar atmosphere.
Sorry, I'm not good about moving images around on my computer, but I'm sure you have seen them.

Michael Mozina
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Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Tue Nov 02, 2021 9:10 am

jacmac wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 2:26 pm
Michael M:
whereas the chromosphere is only about 10-20+ Kelvin,
I don't understand your 10-20+ number Michael.
The chromosphere is about 4,400 kelvin in its lower region and shoots way up to about
400,000 kelvin near the uppermost region; according to ESO.org

Also Don Scott labels the chromosphere as a double layer in his diagrams of the solar atmosphere.
Sorry, I'm not good about moving images around on my computer, but I'm sure you have seen them.
That should have been 10-20 thousand Kelvin at the lowest levels of the chromosphere. Suffice to say the atmosphere/chromosphere is presumed to heat up consistently as it originates near the 6K photosphere, and meets up with the sun's hot outer corona, but it's not quite that simple. The whole solar atmosphere has massive coronal loops containing multi-million degree plasma pinches running through the whole solar atmosphere.

The 304A images are mostly He ion wavelengths and they do seem to show evidence that the helium emitting 'layer' of the sun is located directly above the surface of the photosphere, and between the photosphere and the sun's outer corona.

I think the sun's atmosphere is essentially mass separated by the element in distinct double layers of different densities and temperatures. The inner layers are thicker and cooler and conduct electrical current quite efficiently, whereas the outer layers are hotter and thinner.

jacmac
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Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by jacmac » Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:24 pm

You speak of double layers of the elements:
I think the sun's atmosphere is essentially mass separated by the element in distinct double layers of different densities and temperatures.
I refer to a single double layer(DL) of VOLTAGE that Don Scott has on his diagrams of the sun,
which IS the chromosphere.... OR.... which is within the chromosphere.
It is this DL that I think is overlooked in our EU discussions,
and overlooked in public talks by Don Scott and Wal Thornhill.
I seems that the idea of ELECTRIC DISCHARGE has overshadowed
the idea of plasma ,self organized, double layers.

Layers of elements of hydrogen and helium in the sun may be concurrent with a voltage DL.
Do you have an opinion about a voltage double layer ?

Michael Mozina
Posts: 2279
Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:35 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Tue Nov 09, 2021 7:24 am

jacmac wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 3:24 pm
You speak of double layers of the elements:
I think the sun's atmosphere is essentially mass separated by the element in distinct double layers of different densities and temperatures.
I refer to a single double layer(DL) of VOLTAGE that Don Scott has on his diagrams of the sun,
which IS the chromosphere.... OR.... which is within the chromosphere.
It is this DL that I think is overlooked in our EU discussions,
and overlooked in public talks by Don Scott and Wal Thornhill.
I seems that the idea of ELECTRIC DISCHARGE has overshadowed
the idea of plasma ,self organized, double layers.

Layers of elements of hydrogen and helium in the sun may be concurrent with a voltage DL.
Do you have an opinion about a voltage double layer ?
I think it's likely that the sun's "electrode surface" (located about 4800KM under the surface of the photosphere) is surrounded by numerous double layers of various elemental compositions, with voltage changes being possible (likely) IMO.

I would like to see a full (complete) series of Birkeland's experiments performed in the 21st century, particularly his cathode experiments with various elemental changes to the chamber. I think if you put three elements into the chamber, including hydrogen, helium and neon, you'd end up with three distinct double layers around the cathode.

jacmac
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by jacmac » Tue Nov 09, 2021 2:29 pm

Thanks Michael.
We shall disagree then about the chromosphere being a DL.
I am not set on the anode OR cathode nature of the sun though.
You may recall I have proposed that the inner solid body below the photosphere is a PSUEDO node.
It acts like a node because it is charged by the external plasma,
including the high energy, charged and neutral particles, we have discussed in other posts.

The solar core is not charged by a separate strong current coming in at the poles , IMO,
as described in the Alfven circuit diagram, but is charged through
the current carrying chromosphere DL which surrounds the entire photosphere.
The core might be either a psuedo anode or a psuedo cathode;
I have not tried to figure that out.

SiriDas
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:59 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by SiriDas » Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:01 am

BeAChooser wrote:
Sun Oct 31, 2021 1:15 am
https://e-catworld.com/2021/10/26/aureo ... nd-method/
Aureon Energy Patent: “Plasma heating apparatus, system and method”

Abstract: A plasma heating apparatus including a boiler vessel for holding water to be heated, a cathode housed in the vessel, the cathode defining a watertight cathode chamber isolated from the water in the vessel, and, an anode housed in the cathode chamber, the anode including an internal passage for receiving a gas from outside of the vessel when the passage is connected to a gas supply, and wherein the anode is connectable to a power source for receiving power for generating a plasma in the cathode chamber. In another aspect, the present disclosure relates to a heat or power generating system or plant including the plasma heating apparatus.
Is this a LENR nuclear process (taking place in a double layer plasma) using hydrogen to heat water?

This sounds interesting and of importance to the electric universe …
"SAFIRE is a medium temperature plasma reactor"
https://youtu.be/7GFFfmBGb5U?t=350

Lloyd
Posts: 5071
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:05 am

I haven't been following many threads on this forum besides my own, but JacMac shared his bio at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=635&p=5981#p5981 lately, so I decided to check out some of his other stuff briefly. And this looks like a good place to chime in. I also recommend others here share a bit of their bios in my Members' Bios thread at that link, so we can all get a little better acquainted. Michael Mozina writes quite a bit on this board, apparently, and he, Brant Callahan and Charles Chandler and I had some good, long discussions about the electric sun model in 2012 or so. I was not knowledgeable about the subject to speak of, but all three of them were, so I learned a lot from their discussions, and I contributed by asking quite a few questions. It was quite a coincidence that all three of them had independent views, but all three shared the belief that the Sun is a cathode, instead of an anode. Brant and Michael both considered the Sun to be made of solid iron just under the photosphere. Brant thought it was powered by aether from the galactic center, while Michael thought it was powered by a neutronium core. Charles thought it was powered by mostly current-free double-layers. Michael's model was similar or identical to Oliver Manuel's iron sun model. They're probably not actually identical. That's hard to come by. (Brant left the forum a few years ago, at least as Upriver. I had a thread at that time to explain his Aether Battery Iron Sun model, in which he answered my questions about it.) I ended up deciding that Charles' model was most realistic. He has numerous papers at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6031 . All three models consider the Sun's power source to be internal "batteries", instead of external wiring to some unknown generator. Michael and/or Charles mentioned that external sources of power should show strong magnetic fields easily detectable, so there appears to be no credible evidence for external wiring (i.e. plasma filaments etc). I agreed with Charles that an iron sun should short out any electric currents, so there should be no currents going from an iron shell into the photosphere and back down to the shell. I didn't think there's any good evidence for the existence of neutronium for Michael's and Oliver's models.
JacMac said:
We shall disagree then about the chromosphere being a DL. I am not set on the anode OR cathode nature of the sun though. You may recall I have proposed that the inner solid body below the photosphere is a PSUEDO node. It acts like a node because it is charged by the external plasma, including the high energy, charged and neutral particles, we have discussed in other posts.

The solar core is not charged by a separate strong current coming in at the poles, IMO, as described in the Alfven circuit diagram, but is charged through the current carrying chromosphere DL which surrounds the entire photosphere. The core might be either a psuedo anode or a psuedo cathode; I have not tried to figure that out.
So, JacMac and company, what do you have against Charles' model, linked above? Or will the real electric universe please stand up?

jacmac
Posts: 730
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:36 pm

Re: Anyone see this (SAFIRE related) …

Unread post by jacmac » Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:00 am

Charles's model is both internal and externally powered as I remember.
About 1/3 external plasma, 2/3 internal.
It is quite complicated, but I'm not so much against it as I have a different notion.
I am going down the path of plasma self organizing to see where it leads.

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