Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Plasma and electricity in space. Failure of gravity-only cosmology. Exposing the myths of dark matter, dark energy, black holes, neutron stars, and other mathematical constructs. The electric model of stars. Predictions and confirmations of the electric comet.
Robertus Maximus
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Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:36 pm

Moderator Note - This thread is a continuation from here:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... &start=270


Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =3&t=16299

Continuing from:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... &start=270

I came across this interactive visualization website, the subject in question is the ‘young star’ DG Tau but the various structures could equally be labelled the ‘Heliotube’ and Cassini Belt. Plus, it is far superior to my illustrations!

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/jets-of ... 70185f4d24

Robertus Maximus
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Wed Apr 15, 2020 12:06 am

New Information on the Interstellar Magnetic Field in the Solar Neighbourhood

This thread originally began as a rejoinder to Bob Johnson’s EU2013 presentation in which the validity of the Electric Sun model was questioned. (1)

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =3&t=14943
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =3&t=16299

I had offered a possible route out of the criticisms raised by Bob Johnson by combining Hannes Alfven’s ‘closed circuit’ with Ralph Juergens’ ‘open circuit’ solar models. The result is what I have called a pseudo-Alfven circuit which is ‘open’ i.e. connected to the Sun’s environment, performing the role proposed by Juergens.

Later, I questioned the ‘accepted’ view of the heliosphere suggesting that the Sun, resides in a ‘Heliotube’.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 20#p115766

From the two images in a previous post (https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 25#p127597) it can be seen that the IBEX Ribbon spans the pinched region of the Heliotube covering both northern and southern solar hemispheres. Now, a new study has shed additional light upon the Sun’s environment. (2)

The collected data “… show filament-like patterns of polarization position angles, which are related to both the heliosphere geometry, the kinematics of nearby clouds, and the Interstellar Boundary EXplorer ribbon magnetic field.” (3)

Despite the Interstellar Magnetic Field (ISMF) direction varying “strongly in different parts of the sky” coherent features nevertheless appeared: “The general view may be slightly complicated, but there are several interesting features showing well-aligned polarization vectors. Some of them resemble “arc” or “loop”-like structures.” (4)

“The polarization position angle patterns suggest that the polarizing dust grains are aligned along magnetic filaments, some with spatial extents greater than 90 degrees. Combined with data from several literature sources, Frisch et al. (2015a) found that the position angles for stars in the longitude range l = 315 degrees – 60 degrees reveal a filament in the direction toward the heliosphere nose region, as defined by the flow of interstellar neutral gas through the heliosphere (l - approx. 4 degrees, b - approx. 15 degrees). Our data also clearly show a filament in the opposite direction (l – approx. 180 degrees, b – approx. -15 degrees) corresponding to the (spatially broader) region of the heliosphere tail.” (5)

“The newly discovered filament that is centered near l = 240 degrees, b = -42 degrees roughly follows the direction of the IBEX ribbon ISMF.” (6)

We find a new filament in the ‘tail’ region of the heliosphere to compliment the known filament in the ‘nose’ region of the heliosphere. It can be seen from my illustrations that the discovery of a filament in this region should not have come as a surprise.

“These new polarization data firmly place the filament within the cluster of local interstellar clouds flowing past the Sun and extending to the solar location (Frisch et al. 2011).” (7)

“…a polarization map for the nearby stars at northern Galactic latitudes, for comparison with earlier results for more distant stars (Berdyugin et al. 2014). The most prominent feature seen in the northern (b > 30 degrees) high-latitude polarization map for the distant (d >= 100 pc) stars is a giant “arc” or “loop” between the longitudes 270 degrees and 45 degrees, with the center at l = 330 degrees.” (8)

“The polarization position angles show that the very local ISMF is arranged into distinct magnetic filaments, some with spatial extents greater than 90 degrees. These magnetic filaments provide a new perspective on the structure of local interstellar clouds…” (9)

“Comparison of polarization maps at the high northern Galactic latitudes for distant (100 pc < d < 500 pc) and nearby stars (d < 50 pc) reveals similar features of polarization patterns, that is, local magnetic field structures seen in the distance range d = 100–500 pc also extend to and appear at closer distances.” (10)

It would appear that we have a continuum of observations hinting that filaments in the Local Interstellar Medium (LISM) are directly influencing the heliospheric boundary. It must be kept in mind that I do not accept the consensus view of the heliosphere (I am using the term here for convenience) along with the consensus interpretation of the ‘nose’ and ‘tail’ regions. The discovery of a filament in the ‘tail’ region, I consider to be further evidence that the consensus view is wrong. I would also offer the possibility that the reported circularity of the IBEX Ribbon may be an illusion due to our observational perspective. Instead, the IBEX Ribbon may be related to filaments snaking along the ‘Heliotube’- further observations may confirm or deny this possibility.

References:

1. Johnson. Robert. 2013. The Nature of the Sun reconsidered. Electric Universe 2013: The Tipping Point, Albuquerque, New Mexico 3-6 January 2013.
2. https://www.utu.fi/en/news/press-releas ... ghbourhood
3. Piirola. V. et al. 2020. High-precision polarimetry of nearby stars (d< 50pc). Astronomy and Astrophysics, 635: A46, 2020 January 27 https://www.aanda.org/articles/aa/pdf/2 ... 324-19.pdf
4. Ibid.
5. Ibid.
6. Ibid.
7. Ibid.
8. Ibid.
9. Ibid.
10. Ibid.

Michael Mozina
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Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Michael Mozina » Wed Apr 15, 2020 4:59 am

I don't know how it's even possible to claim to observe magnetic fields in plasma structures in space and not recognize the *current* which must also be present to sustain such fields. I can't even look at higher energy satellite images of the sun and not 'see' the evidence of the massive amounts of electrical current that sustain those multi-million degree coronal loops.

The only real remaining question is *which solar model* is ideally suited to explain what we observe in our own solar atmosphere.

Alfven's model was technically an internally powered net neutral "homopolar generator" model with (negatively charged) currents coming into the sun near the poles and out again through the Parker spiral near the equator. Technically all the other models could also have at least some features associated with a homopolar generator.

Juergen's model was an externally powered anode surface model with respect to a negatively charged space, and it included a less well defined circuit diagram of how the sun connected to the larger universe. Juergens essentially assumed that more electrons came into the solar surface than came out, and more protons came out of the sun's outer surface than came in. I suppose that it too could include homopolar generator-like features as well, but I'm unclear how that would look in terms of current flow patterns.

Birkeland's internally powered cathode model assumed that the surface of the sun had a net negative charge with respect to a more positively charged "space" around it, it emitted *both* types of charged particles toward the heliosphere where the bulk of the current flow interactions took place. This models seems to be at least somewhat supported by the observation that close to 99 percent of the inbound cosmic rays are positively charged and moving at very high velocities. Again the full circuit diagram is somewhat less defined, and most of the bulk transfer of electricity with the rest of the universe probably takes place at the outer edge of the heliosphere.

Both Alfven's model and Birkeland's model were internally powered for the most part, so each sun essentially acts as a net generator of electrical current.

As I understand it, Juergens assumed (based on a perception of a neutrno deficit) that our particular sun was a "net consumer" of electrical energy which helped to heat the sun. His leaves open the possibility that some (presumably larger) suns are net producers of electrical fusion type energy, but it's less obvious where the ultimate power supply of the universe comes from. It could also be the current flow process ultimately causes fusion to occur near the anode surface, so the sun is also a local net "producer" of fusion energy.

Alfven talked about "ambiplasma" being present in the early universe and presumably it could sustain the net current flow process, but that would tend to suggest a limit to the age of the universe.

I'm less clear about how Juergen's model works, so if I've misrepresented or mischaracterized his (or any other) model in some way, feel free to correct me.

Robertus Maximus
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Robertus Maximus » Mon May 04, 2020 2:21 pm

Switchbacks and spikes: Parker Solar Probe data consistent with 20-year-old theory

by James Lynch, University of Michigan

Continued analysis of Parker Solar Probe data is starting to create a clearer picture of the sun's magnetic activity, which may bolster our ability to predict dangerous solar events.

And the more information that comes in, the more it all fits with theories posited at the turn of the millennium by researchers at the University of Michigan. Justin Kasper, professor of climate and space sciences and engineering at U-M, said those current and former U-M researchers, led by Lennard Fisk, the Thomas M. Donahue Distinguished University Professor of Space Science, pieced together an intricate picture of the sun's workings long before Parker launched in August 2018.

"This isn't like having the data and coming up with a theory that happens to line up with it," said Kasper, who serves as principal investigator for Parker's Solar Wind Electrons Alphas and Protons (SWEAP) instrument suite. "This is possibly observational closure emerging on a theory that was put out two decades ago."

The new data is summarized and compared with the previous work in Astrophysical Journal Letters.
Sensors aboard the spacecraft have produced data suggesting:
• The sun's atmosphere, composed of plasma and magnetic fields, moves in a general global circulation pattern. Parker Solar Probe can observe a small section at any given time.
• Close to the sun, solar wind—the outward stream of charged particles from the surface—is embedded with abrupt changes in magnetic field direction, called switchbacks, along which the solar wind flows at an accelerated speed.
• The global coronal magnetic field slides over the surface of the sun via a process called interchange reconnection—when closed loops of magnetic field sprouting from the sun's surface explosively realign with open magnetic field lines that extend out into the solar system.

Each of these items reveals fundamental processes occurring at the sun and this understanding has practical applications here on Earth.
"What this gives us is insight into how the sun produces slow and fast solar winds," said Kasper. "Defining that mechanism is key to predicting when a transition from slow to fast solar wind is going to strike Earth and create a geomagnetic storm."

Those conclusions agree with predictions put forth in 1999 and 2001 research papers from Fisk and U-M colleagues. One of those, Thomas Zurbuchen, is currently associate director of NASA's Science Mission Directorate.

"It's amazing to see Parker Solar Probe provide a missing puzzle piece to support and expand ideas we first thought about with spacecraft data from almost 25 years ago," said Zurbuchen. "As Parker Solar Probe flies closer to the sun, I can't wait to see what answers—and questions—we'll learn next."

A long time coming

"Badly."

That's how Fisk, co-author of the new APJ Letters paper, remembers his earlier work being accepted by solar physicists. It offered possible explanations for how several different solar phenomena interact, but the data to verify such things was limited by technology. Effects of the near-sun phenomena were only observed in the more distant heliosphere. The heliosphere is the region of space, including our solar system, that the solar wind influences.

In those earlier publications, Fisk theorized that, in different areas of the corona, so-called open magnetic lines that stretch from the surface of the sun out into space should circulate in a closed pattern, with motions both in the direction of and opposite to the sun's rotation. And he also posited that the individual interchange reconnection jumps would combine to permit overall motions of the corona over the surface of the sun.

Fisk found his first clues about the strange magnetic activity in the sun's heliosphere after combing through data collected during the ESA/NASA Ulysses mission. Launched in 1990, Ulysses was the first spacecraft to pass over the sun's poles. There, the spacecraft recorded particle radiation that originated at lower solar latitudes—a finding that suggested the magnetic field observed by Ulysses had to be in motion in the solar corona.

The team that conducted this research included Zurbuchen and Nathan Schwadron, now a professor of physics and astronomy at the University of New Hampshire.

Since publication of those earlier papers, Fisk has moved on to other research projects. But his office neighbor just happened to be Kasper. And when Parker Solar Probe's first data came rolling in last year, Fisk could see how it all fit together.

"Once you get confirmation of this basic process, all of a sudden, there are all of these implications for how the sun works, how its magnetic field works and how the solar wind is accelerated," Fisk said. "It gives you the opportunity to solve many other solar and stellar physics problems because now you have the basic mechanisms."

As Parker Solar Probe continues to move closer to the sun, the mission will provide ample opportunity to test and validate predictions by the theory.

Parker Solar Probe is part of the NASA Heliophysics Living With a Star program, created to explore aspects of the sun-Earth system that directly affect life and society. The program is managed by the agency's Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, for NASA's Science Mission Directorate in Washington. Johns Hopkins APL designed, built and operates the spacecraft.

The paper is titled "Global Circulation of the Open Magnetic Flux of the Sun."
(1)

The paper referred to in the article is behind a member-wall at the moment, so the only details we have to go on are those provided by the article. An analysis of some of these findings has been provided by Dr Don Scott in an earlier ‘Space News’ presentation- for example, of the so-called ‘switchbacks’.

But, of interest here is what the “…Sensors aboard the spacecraft have produced data suggesting…”, namely, “…The sun's atmosphere, composed of plasma and magnetic fields, moves in a general global circulation pattern…” and “…The global coronal magnetic field slides over the surface of the sun via a process called interchange reconnection—when closed loops of magnetic field sprouting from the sun's surface explosively realign with open magnetic field lines that extend out into the solar system…”

It is only early in the Parker Solar Probe (PSP) mission and further data may alter the preliminary picture- especially as the solar cycle progresses so it may be no more than speculation on my part but why would the “global coronal magnetic field” slide over the surface of the Sun? After all, it is assumed that the interplanetary magnetic field has its origins at, or within the Sun.

In 1973 Ralph Juergens wrote: “On basic principles, one would expect that every magnetic line of force directly related to the sun would have to form a closed curve between two points on the surface of the sun; yet solar-wind theorists seem to treat these lines as if they were somehow detached at one end and sent flailing into space with magnetic monopoles at their outer ends. And all the while, supposedly, the electric currents responsible for these lines of magnetic force roam about on the face of the sun. How much nicer it would be if one could ignore those electric currents!

“My suggestion on this point would be to explore the possibility that the interplanetary magnetic field is the proper magnetic field of the electric current that supplies the sun with all its radiant energy. (A possible clue to this phenomenon is perhaps to be found in lightning discharges on earth. In high-quality photographs of lightning, I fancy I see, not a zigzag path, but a tightly twisted channel strongly resembling a ravelled strand of rope--as if the lightning channel were being forced into an almost helical shape by the proper magnetic field of the discharge current.)” (2)

With Juergens’ statement in mind, is it possible PSP has revealed that the coronal magnetic field is the base of the interplanetary magnetic field i.e. the magnetic field of the “current that supplies the sun with all its radiant energy” and this field is actually independent of the Sun? In one illustration in the Phys.org article we see the term “global circulation of open field lines” this expression seems to hint that ‘open field lines’ are somehow independent of the Sun and follow their own circulation pattern, from standard solar models this would be difficult to explain, from an Electric Sun model the ‘circulation’ and ‘sliding’ would be a feature of the “electric current that supplies the sun with all its radiant energy”.

Again, it is still early in the PSP mission but these initial observations hint that ‘open’ magnetic field lines, which are associated with coronal holes and the fast solar wind, are connected to what I have called a ‘pseudo-Alfven’ circuit which is ultimately associated with what I have called the ‘Heliotube’.

References:

1. Switchbacks and spikes: Parker Solar Probe data consistent with 20-year-old theory, April 30, 2020
https://phys.org/news/2020-04-switchbac ... probe.html
2. Kruskal, Martin. et al. 1973. On Celestial Mechanics. Pensée Vol. 3 No 1: (Winter 1973) "Immanuel Velikovsky Reconsidered III"

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paladin17
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by paladin17 » Fri May 08, 2020 2:58 pm

Indeed a very interesting observation. The corona, as far as I know, rotates independently of the Sun (at least in the sense that it doesn't have differential rotation, i.e. it rotates "like a solid body").
Maybe there is some mechanism that couples the corona directly to the core, bypassing the photo/chromosphere. Or maybe it is indeed a sign of some external influence.

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Solar
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Solar » Wed Aug 12, 2020 3:53 pm

Would someone help me understand what I'm seeing here? This paper comes up in full as Open Access on my computer:
Abstract
The global circulation of the open magnetic flux of the Sun, the component of the solar magnetic field that opens into the heliosphere, and the consequences of the global circulation were proposed by Fisk and coworkers in the early 2000s. The Parker Solar Probe, on its initial encounters with the Sun, has provided direct confirmation of both the global circulation and the physical mechanism by which the circulation occurs, transport by interchange reconnection between open magnetic flux and large coronal loops. The implications of this confirmation of the global circulation of open magnetic flux and the importance of interchange reconnection is discussed. - Global Circulation of the Open Magnetic Flux of the Sun - L. A. Fisk and J. C. Kasper
Can someone explain why this does not qualify as a Triboelectric Sun model? (See Figure 1)
"Triboelectricity means electric charge generated by friction. It comes from the Greek word “tribos”, which means rubbing." - Electrostatics: Charging Objects by Friction Virginia EDU
They are basically saying that the larger "global circulation" of heliospheric scale "open magnetic flux" with is polar configuration of "coronal holes" is somehow anchored to sun with its own separate rotation - and that simultaneously, the smaller "coronal loops" which instead rotate with the sun are interacting. This interaction reconfigures to such extent that solar material in smaller "coronal loops" is accelerated outward along the larger heliospheric scale "open magnetic field" causing a "knot" of of plasma to pass along existing open field lines at a faster rate than 'normal' (aka "switchbacks"). PSP is observing a multiplicity of these events at a variety of different scales.

Might not the sun be said to 'electrostatically sparkle' under these circumstances???
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by GaryN » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm

"Would someone help me understand what I'm seeing here?"
Not me. 8-)
"..transport by interchange reconnection between open magnetic flux and large coronal loops."
Here's an animation:
https://cdn.iflscience.com/images/d6226 ... -maker.gif
In order to change an existing paradigm you do not struggle to try and change the problematic model. You create a new model and make the old one obsolete. -Buckminster Fuller

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Solar
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Solar » Wed Aug 12, 2020 10:22 pm

GaryN wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:02 pm
"Would someone help me understand what I'm seeing here?"
Not me. 8-)
"..transport by interchange reconnection between open magnetic flux and large coronal loops."
Here's an animation:
https://cdn.iflscience.com/images/d6226 ... -maker.gif
Thank you GaryN.

Despite treating this as a "transport" dynamic moving (accelerating) plasma from one place to another its interesting that PSP is detecting "thousands" of these "switchback" events with durations lasting anywhere from seconds to days - just like the duration of coronal loops...
An active region of the sun just rotating into the view of NASA's Solar Dynamics Observatory gives a profile view of coronal loops over about a two-day period, from Feb. 8-10, 2014. Coronal loops are found around sunspots and in active regions. These structures are associated with the closed magnetic field lines that connect magnetic regions on the solar surface. Many coronal loops last for days or weeks, but most change quite rapidly. This image was taken in extreme ultraviolet light. - NASA: Coronal Loops in an Active Region of the Sun
I'm just trying to imagine longer ranged "open magnetic field lines" interacting with these co-rotating coronal loops per the animation with something like this...

NASA | Fiery Looping Rain on the Sun
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Solar » Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:11 pm

For those interested the following document analyses the "interchange reconnection" process MUCH better than the previously referenced paper and articles which leave out some details. One of the things I were having trouble with was - sure - a loop or two here and there; okay fine. However, how would a loop or two lead to something like a "Coronal Cascade" (multiple loops):
With the data from the Atmospheric Imaging Assembly (AIA) and the Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager (HMI) on board the Solar Dynamics Observatory (SDO), we present a magnetic interaction between an isolated coronal hole (CH) and an emerging active region (AR). The AR emerged nearby the CH and interacted with it. Bright loops constantly formed between them, which led to a continuous retreat of the CH boundaries (CHBs). Meanwhile, two coronal dimmings respectively appeared at the negative polarity of the AR and the east boundary of the bright loops, and the AR was partly disturbed. Loop eruptions followed by a flare occurred in the AR. The interaction was also accompanied by many jets and an arc-shaped brightening that appeared to be observational signatures of magnetic reconnection at the CHBs. By comparing the observations with the derived coronal magnetic configuration, it is suggested that the interaction between the CH and the AR excellently fitted in with the model of interchange reconnection. It appears that our observations provide obvious evidences for interchange reconnection. - Interchange reconnection between an active region and a corona hole - L. Ma, Z.Q. Qu, X.L. Yan, Z.K. Xue
From a different source here is simulation:

Dynamics of the Transition corona - Sophie Masson et al

If you read the paper you'll see the amazing way that one pole of dipole "Active Regions" are interacting with "Coronal Hole Boundaries" to induce the 'arching' known as "Coronal Loops". Its an interesting relationship where the "active regions" form a dipole; and its the unipolar "open" - "coronal hole boundary" interacting with one of the poles of the active region dipole that forms the "loops". Fascinating. That is why "Coronal Cascades" ("slinkies") consisting of multiple loops along a distance can be so very long i.e. the mutual interaction can incorporate a rather lengthy section of the "Coronal hole boundary" constituting an "open magnetic field line".
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by JP Michael » Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:44 am

Solar wrote:
Sun Aug 16, 2020 9:11 pm
If you read the paper you'll see the amazing way that one pole of dipole "Active Regions" are interacting with "Coronal Hole Boundaries" to induce the 'arching' known as "Coronal Loops". Its an interesting relationship where the "active regions" form a dipole; and its the unipolar "open" - "coronal hole boundary" interacting with one of the poles of the active region dipole that forms the "loops". Fascinating. That is why "Coronal Cascades" ("slinkies") consisting of multiple loops along a distance can be so very long i.e. the mutual interaction can incorporate a rather lengthy section of the "Coronal hole boundary" constituting an "open magnetic field line".
I have often wondered if this dynamic is also present on earth, and how earth's terrestrial atmosphere alters the dynamics of loop formation.

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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by Solar » Mon Aug 17, 2020 5:16 pm

JP Michael wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 4:44 am
I have often wondered if this dynamic is also present on earth, and how earth's terrestrial atmosphere alters the dynamics of loop formation.
That is something to work with imho. To go out on a limb perhaps the earth’s magnetic field has something to do with the interaction of “Warm Fronts” and “Cold Fronts”. The darker areas of “coronal holes” are considered to be cooler (plasma) than that of the Coronal mist so one could assert that CH’s (the footprints of “open magnetic field lines” of the larger global heliosphere) presents analogous “cold fronts” to the “warm fronts” of localized “active regions”. If I were standing on the Sun looking up, the “coronal holes” would be analogous to looking through various types of Coronal ‘cloud cover’ at an azure blue sky.

Have a look at this satellite image of “cyclonic” and “anticyclonic” circulation patterns here:

A Big Hole Appeared in Cloud Cover Over the North Pacific Ocean Sunday; Here’s What Caused It? Wheather Channel

On the Sun this Earth based weather pattern *might* correspond with the two areas of an “Active Region” where one area is “negative” and the other area is “positive”. Looking at theoretical considerations of “convergent”, “divergent”, and movement of “air currents” between and throughout each feature (as portrayed here) substitute the dynamics of those “air currents” with electric currents instead and consider this: With regard to the Sun there is debate in the literature as to whether electric currents in “Active Regions” are neutralized, or not.
Models for energy storage in the solar corona due to the twisting of coronal magnetic fields by subphotospheric flows imply that coronal currents should be neutralized (i.e., observed currents over a given polarity of the magnetic field should sum to zero). The neutralized current hypothesis is quantitatively tested by examining vector magnetic field data from 21 active regions observed by the Solar Magnetic Field Telescope of the Huairou Solar Observing Station of Beijing Astronomical Observatory. For each active region, the current over the positive polarity of the field, I+, is estimated, as well as the current over the negative polarity, I-, and the total current over both polarities, Itot. In no case is the total current Itot significantly different from zero. The currents I+ and I- are found to be significantly different from zero (at the 3 σ level) in more than half of the active regions studied, implying that large-scale currents in active regions are typically unneutralized. The implications of this result and the relationship of this study to related studies (e.g., of current helicity) are discussed. - Are Electric Currents in Solar Active Regions Neutralized? - M. S. Wheatland 2000
Using time-sequence vector magnetic field observation from Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager, we examined the connection of non-neutralized currents and the observed activity in 20 solar active regions (ARs). The net current in a given magnetic polarity is algebraic sum of direct current (DC) and return current (RC) and the ratio |DC/RC| is a measure of degree of net current neutralization (NCN). In the emerging ARs, the non-neutrality of these currents builds with the onset of flux emergence, following the relaxation to neutrality during the separation motion of bipolar regions. Accordingly, some emerging ARs are source regions of CMEs occurring at the time of higher level non-neutrality. ARs in the post-emergence phase can be CME productive provided they have interacting bipolar regions with converging and shearing motions. In these cases, the net current evolves with higher level (>1.3) of non-neutrality. Differently, the |DC/RC| in flaring and quiet ARs vary near unity. In all the AR samples, the |DC/RC| is higher for chiral current density than that for vertical current density. Owing to the fact that the non-neutralized currents arise in the vicinity of sheared polarity-inversion-lines (SPILs), the profiles of the total length of SPIL segments and the degree of NCN follow each other with a positive correlation. We find that the SPIL is localized as small segments in flaring-ARs, whereas it is long continuous in CME-producing ARs. These observations demonstrate the dividing line between the CMEs and flares with the difference being in global or local nature of magnetic shear in the AR that reflected in non-neutralized currents. - Degree of electric current neutralization and the activity in solar active regions: P Vemareddy Apr. 2019
With these latest findings coalescing over the last 20 years or so the “active regions”, with their negative and positive localized (“closed loop”) configuration are analogous to a relatively stable dipole system. Their configuration is similar to the cyclonic/anticyclonic - convergent/divergent relationship with electric currents circulating as opposed to air currents moving between them as proposed on Earth.

Then, near this relatively stable dipole “active region”, the boundary of an even larger unipolar “cold front” (of an “open magnetic field line” - belonging to the MUCH larger global magnetic field) approaches. This disrupts, and simultaneously excites, the relatively stable dipole active region resulting in…
Active regions on the Sun are places where the Sun's magnetic field is disturbed. These regions frequently spawn various types of solar activity, including explosive "solar storms" such as solar flares and coronal mass ejections (CME). - NCAR-UCAR
Therefore, if I were to superimpose the aforementioned cyclonic/anticyclonic image onto this image of an Active Region such that they are both visible and 'electrodynamically' compare them .... perhaps there's something in there.

Besides; those kinds of comparison are done on a regular basis. The "Tachocline" was put forth in similar manner via comparison with Earth's oceans“It is therefore worthwhile to see a theoretical rationalization of this velocity boundary layer, which we call the solar tachocline by analogy with the oceanic thermocline.”
Acoustic sounding of the Sun reveals that the variation of angular velocity with latitude is independent of depth in the convection zone. By contrast, deep within the radiative zone, the rotation appears to be rigid. The transition between the two rotation laws occurs in a thin, unresolved layer that the authors here call the tachocline. This paper is an examination of the structure and previous evolution of this layer. It is assumed that the stress exerted by the convection zone is prescribed, much as oceanographers take the wind stress on the sea surface as given. It is concluded that the helioseismic observations are best rationalized by a scenario in which, after an initial adjustment or spindown period, the subconvective rotation settles into a quasisteady state with a turbulent boundary layer. In the tachocline, the advection of angular momentum is controlled by horizontal turbulence. If this turbulence is intense enough, the tachocline is thin and is unresolved. - The Solar Tachocline - Spiegel, E. A; Zahn, J. P.
"Our laws of force tend to be applied in the Newtonian sense in that for every action there is an equal reaction, and yet, in the real world, where many-body gravitational effects or electrodynamic actions prevail, we do not have every action paired with an equal reaction." — Harold Aspden

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JP Michael
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by JP Michael » Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:28 pm

I have often wondered about the relationship between atmospheric temperature and charge polarity. Why is it that high-pressure downdrafts, assuming a generally positive charge region, are warm and dry, whereas low pressure, negatively charged updraft systems, are cool and wet? And why do troughs bring large, thin horizonal regions of cool and wet weather (of course warm troughs also exist, but I hardly see them here in Aus)?

Is this something that has ever been tested in a lab? What is the relationship between polarity and regional temperature in a dynamic current flowing through the earth's atmosphere?

I digress somewhat from the original solar discussion, but my point is that may of the effects witnessed on the sun are analogous on earth as well. The main differences are the magnitude (the earth's system is much weaker electrically) and the primary medium (instead of being mostly pure plasma, earth has far greater preponderance of water and neutral atoms as potential charge carriers).

Anyway, the materials you offered above will keep me thinking for some time.

Cheers @Solar!

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paladin17
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by paladin17 » Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:22 pm

JP Michael wrote:
Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:28 pm
Why is it that high-pressure downdrafts, assuming a generally positive charge region, are warm and dry, whereas low pressure, negatively charged updraft systems, are cool and wet?
In the troposphere the primary source of heating is the Earth's surface. Therefore, when the air moves down, it starts to warm up. And warm air can hold more vapor without condensation. So high pressure corresponds to fair weather. The reverse is true for low pressure: as the air rises and cools down, it can no longer hold as much vapor and some of it condensates into clouds etc.

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JP Michael
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Re: Alfven and Juergens Circuits, a Reconciliation? 2.0 (v3.0)

Unread post by JP Michael » Sun Aug 30, 2020 4:27 am

paladin17 wrote:
Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:22 pm
*snip*
This still isn't really answering some fundamental questions as to why they're hot/cold in the first place. Is there any relationship between charge and temperature? That is, if high pressure systems are anticyclonic positive charge areas, why are they usually warm? If low pressure systems are cyclonic and negative charge regions, why are they usually cold? And high/low pressure systems don't dissipate at night/day when temperatures drop/increase markedly due to lack/presence of sun, so solar heating may not be the sole cause.

Guess I'm interested in the global electric circuit and how movement of charged particles or electric current causes weather, but unfortunately I don't have much time for reading physics right now.

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