What is absolute nothingness?

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
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vector369
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What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by vector369 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 4:13 pm

No time, no space and no matter.

Many have professed that this state, for want of better words, is the source of everything that is. Often referred to as "that" or "it" because it transcends all human concepts and understanding. Called the Atma, The Dao, The Ground or The Absolute, it does not require to be created and so needs no outside entity to exist. As a matter of course and perhaps mysteriously, it appears to be conscious in the sense of pure awareness. Existence, reality, the Universe could be said to be a disruption of this innate natural order. Seen as a perfect state because it has no blocks, all parts in instant communication with itself (Love?). The words used do not represent the thing itself but one must use them as best as one can. It is up to the individual to break the word meanings to get the point, if there is one.

"Zero contains all numbers" was an interesting quote I heard. The idea that this absolute nothingness contains everything in potential gives a different meaning to the nothing we are used to. Are there relative nothings? i.e. the space that a cup encompasses is not nothingness but relative to the cup, it is nothingness and therefore is important as it makles the cup useful. Like the space/nothingness a house creates within it's walls so that we may live and take shelter there. And the space that surrounds the Earth is even more rarefied relative nothingness that allows the planet to exist.

The silence (nothing/no sound) between musical notes is as importasnt as the note itself as it allows the music to be heard by the contrasts of silence and sound. The idea then being that nothingness is what allows physical reality to be and that this state of none being creates being just like the space in the cup allows the cup to exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYgdBRCb88o The Secret of Dreaming: An Australian Aboriginal Myth of Creation- "Once there was nothing except the Spirit of all Life. For a long time, the Spirit of all Life dwelled in the nothing".

Daodejing -Lao Tzu- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxEvRoAaYBM
The Dao (absolute nothingness) is not thought of as a God or Deity but as immutable law. The Dao gives birth to One/1/Unity/God. One gives birth to two/2/duality/physical reality.Two gives birth to three/3/Trinity/Man, Woman & Child and the ten thousand things.
Darkness within darkness is the opposite to lightning. So the darkness allows lightning and the electrical universe to happen, maybe ..

I do note a similar thread but felt this post as a reply to that thread wouldnt have worked.

crawler
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by crawler » Tue Nov 15, 2022 10:03 pm

In a way a volume of space could i suppose be empty of anything that we can easily see or feel or measure.
It would need to be empty of (free) photons & photaenos (em radiation)(emitted by every photon) & elementary particles (confined photons).
It would also have to be empty of a changing aetherwind -- ie the aetherwind in the volume would need to be non-changing (a changing aetherwind manifests as gravity).
However if the volume contained aether then it could be said that inertia & inertial mass could exist in the volume -- koz aether connects all mass to all other nearby mass & hence gives us inertia -- aether being massless cant of itself give inertia, it connects all mass with the rest of the universe in a Machian manner.

The problem with nothingness is that a volume needs to be relative to something nearby.
The volume has to have a relative position -- a relative size -- & a relative velocity ----- otherwize it aint a volume.

I see that that other thread is WHAT IS NOTHING?
https://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3 ... hing#p8101
STR is krapp -- & GTR is mostly krapp.
The present Einsteinian Dark Age of science will soon end – for the times they are a-changin'.
The aether will return – it never left.

Arcmode
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by Arcmode » Sat Nov 19, 2022 6:34 pm

From a theological perspective - God is not a thing, He creates things. Nothing, the absence of all things, is therefore the pure existence of God alone, prior to any of His creations.

crawler
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by crawler » Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:34 pm

Wikileaks tell us that the Bible tells us that……….
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, and it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness.

So, is nothing what we had everywhere before creation?
Did the creation leave large volumes of nothing?
What is void? – is it like nothing?

If God said words, then can his words exist in nothing?
Can they propagate in nothing?
Would the propagation speed exceed c km/s ?

Can nothing include the Spirit of God?

I say that matter (eg the earth)(dunnobout heaven) is made of photons – all is photons.
Hence i say that (3) should be (1).
STR is krapp -- & GTR is mostly krapp.
The present Einsteinian Dark Age of science will soon end – for the times they are a-changin'.
The aether will return – it never left.

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Brigit
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by Brigit » Sat Nov 19, 2022 11:35 pm

What is absolute nothingness?
Post by vector369 » Tue Nov 15, 2022 9:13 am
"No time, no space and no matter..." examples: Dao, music theory, Australian Native Legends, etc.

One aspect of the Electric Universe involves comparing myths from around the world. Therefore, it is fair to discuss "nothingness" in that context.

The truth is that the Big Bang is taught in schools and Universities all over the world. That is because most religions and myths can be very easily sychretized with the Big Bang, in which a Cosmic Egg emerges out of nothing and allows the forces of nature to come out from the Egg and conflict with one another.

The one creation explanation that does not fit with this sequence is the Genesis creation account. In those texts, there is intent, forethought, purpose, fiery intelligence, and execution through speech by one single being, his own spirit and word making one with himself. All of this is the opposite of nothing.

I think that if anyone wishes to advance the field of Comparative Mythology, he must also prepare himself to, at times, encounter what can only be termed as Contrastive Mythology.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Cargo
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by Cargo » Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:28 am

The silence (nothing/no sound) between musical notes is as important as the note itself as it allows the music to be heard by the contrasts of silence and sound. The idea then being that nothingness is what allows physical reality to be and that this state of none being creates being just like the space in the cup allows the cup to exist.
I think you miss the point of the silence. 3 dub drop is a classic method for impact. There is never nothing when something is still there, even though you don't hear it.
Or try better music like As I Lay Dying - Nothing Left
Happy Holidays.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
"You know not what. .. Perhaps you no longer trust your feelings,." Michael Clarage
"Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars." Wal Thornhill

danda
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by danda » Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am

== Something or Nothing ==

For me, I can see only two possible states of "existence".

1. there is nothing.
2. there is something.

I think, therefore I am. obviously there is something, so we can rule out (1).

Something cannot be derived from nothing. Therefore, there has always been something.
Something cannot turn into nothing. Therefore there will always be something.

From this I conclude that the universe has always existed and always will exist.

== Boundaries of Something ==

Can something exist next to nothing?

For this to be possible, it would be necessary for "nothing" to exist some "where". Either surrounded by something, or surrounding something.

We have already established that something exists, and nothing does not exist. So we could just stop here. But let's first look at these two scenarios:

scenario: something surrounding nothing: what is the boundary between something and nothing? what prevents something from expanding into nothing, until all of nothing is filled by something? Is there some barrier of exotic "something" that surrounds all of nothing to prevent something from leaking in? If so, we must explain this barrier, or we are left with a problem. Or is there so much nothing, and so little something, that the something would exhaust itself before it could invade all the nothing? This seems more plausible, but it seems to require that something is finitely divisible. If something is infinitely divisible, then it can divide forever until a less dense version of it fills up all the nothing.

scenario: nothing surrounding something: the same logic applies. something would expand out forever into nothing.

== Nature and Divisibility of Something ==

In theory, something might be an indivisible mass/chunk.

But empirically, we observe that something (matter) is always divisible at our scale. So a question must be asked: Is there any limit to divisibility of something (matter)?

If there is a limit to divisibility, it means that there must be one or more "smallest unit". So now let us zoom down to inspect that smallest unit (SU). And we can begin to ask questions about it:

1) what prevents the SU from dividing?
2) what is immediately adjacent to the SU? another SU? or Nothing?
3) if all the SU are packed tightly together how can there be any movement?
4) If the SU are surrounded by areas of Nothing, then we are back to our discussion about boundaries of Something.
5) are the SU simple point particles? Or do they have sub-components? If the latter, are these sub-components not a division of the whole?

Is it not simpler to reason that Something is always further divisible?

== What about the vacuum of space ==

"Space" transmits transverse light waves, indicating that it is a medium filled with something. This medium is usually called the Ether or Aether.

We think of space as "empty" and "nothing", but a wave occurs when particles bump together, so "nothing" could never transmit a wave.

Transverse waves are known to transmit along the surface of liquids while longitudinal waves transmit within a liquid such as water. Light in space is considered to be transverse, yet there is no surface of space. So the aether cannot be considered analogous to a liquid. Interesting, solids transmit both transverse and longitudinal waves. example: earthquakes. The aether then can be modeled as something like a solid, sometimes called an elastic solid.

But if "empty space" is permeated with the aether, and the elastic ether is an infinitely dense solid, then why does it seem so empty to us?

answer: because the matter we can see and touch is condensations or super-concentrations of the ether at a very high energy state relative to the rest of the ether, which is the vast majority. Think of a tornado in the atmosphere. It is a physical, cohesive, structured "thing". But only because of an energy input. Otherwise, it reverts to its natural state. So, let's imagine that tornadoes are living beings and there are 20 of them in the state of Texas. They each look around and see 19 other tornadoes but do not notice all the rest of the air of which they are composed. The tornados are like baryonic matter and the air is like the aether.

that seems a good stopping point for now. :-)

except to conclude: logic would seem to indicate there is no absolute nothingness.

(logic also negates black holes, big bang, universal expansion, light speed limit, and many other fairy tales, but that's for another day)

BeAChooser
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by BeAChooser » Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:07 pm

danda wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 9:10 am Something cannot be derived from nothing. Therefore, there has always been something.
Something cannot turn into nothing. Therefore there will always be something.

From this I conclude that the universe has always existed and always will exist.
I notice you don't mention God. Seems to me that if there were *something* called God, then the universe per se might not have existed before God created it. But in any case, as JWST and other instruments look even farther away, we will come to a time when we'll either see galaxies far past when the Big Bang was believed to happen or we will come to a wall beyond which we can't see anything. Either way, knowing this won't affect our lives in any measurable way so I question the need at this time to spend tens of billions trying to get the answer. It's like counting angels on the head of a pin.

Cargo
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by Cargo » Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:30 am

Invaded by AI we are. How dandy danda.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
"You know not what. .. Perhaps you no longer trust your feelings,." Michael Clarage
"Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars." Wal Thornhill

danda
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by danda » Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:32 am

BeAChooser wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:07 pm I notice you don't mention God. Seems to me that if there were *something* called God, then the universe per se might not have existed before God created it.
Let us say that "God" created us and everything we can observe. great. God is clearly "something" and the same logic applies to the realm in which God resides, as applies to what we can observe. To argue otherwise seems to require arguing that God is "nothing" or came from nothing.

The same is true of all of these:

1) Our reality (what we see/experience) was created by God(s).
2) Our reality is a simulation like the matrix, or a vast video game.
3) I am the only being that exists, and everything else is part of my imagination or dream.
4) Some other being exists, and I/we are part of their imagination or dream.

basic logic that applies to my/our reality also applies to the parent/creator reality. As such, these concepts are just complications of the simplest case, which is that our reality is the "true reality". So, while these types of ideas are fun to think about, I personally dismiss them as being unlikely and unnecessary due to Occam's razor, until such time as some solid evidence supports one or the other.

further thoughts:

In all of these cases, I still exist. As Descarte proclaimed, I think therefore I am. My form is irrelevant. I am something, not nothing. What I perceive is also something, not nothing, even if the something is only in my mind.

Our entire galaxy may be like an atom inside a sun which is inside another galaxy which is like an atom inside another sun, and so on.

and nothing does not and cannot exist anywhere, by definition.
But in any case, as JWST and other instruments look even farther away, we will come to a time when we'll either see galaxies far past when the Big Bang was believed to happen or we will come to a wall beyond which we can't see anything. Either way, knowing this won't affect our lives in any measurable way so I question the need at this time to spend tens of billions trying to get the answer. It's like counting angels on the head of a pin.
I predict we will forever meet observation limits at both the small and large scales simply because there is always smaller and bigger/further.

If aether theory is correct, then light is probably a wave travelling in a medium. No medium is absolutely perfect, and thus light will tire, losing energy over distance, until it's wave length becomes so long it is undetectable. This is probably why the night sky is dark, not brilliant, and it also creates a fairly absolute limit on observability.

danda
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by danda » Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:38 am

Cargo wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 6:30 am Invaded by AI we are. How dandy danda.
that seems a rather flippant and rude reply to a lengthy and philosophical post examining the nature of reality/cosmos.

danda
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by danda » Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:47 am

BeAChooser wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 6:07 pm Either way, knowing this won't affect our lives in any measurable way so I question the need at this time to spend tens of billions trying to get the answer. It's like counting angels on the head of a pin.
I kinda agree and disagree at the same time.

Pure logic tells me that the universe is infinite in time, space, scale.

"Quantum physics" seems like largely a physicist make-work project with their particle accelerators about as useful as smashing marbles into each other and then naming and cataloging all the various fragments. And the whole Higgs Boson "discovery" was a last ditch effort (fakery) to keep the funding coming and theory alive. See book: The Higgs Fake.

JWST seems like it has been actually useful in that it has forced many establishment types to admit the cosmos are larger and older than believed, and some may even be re-thinking their foundations. It has provided ammo for electric universe, infinite universe, quantum kinetics, and other theories that challenge status quo dogma. Also, jwst cost a LOT less than particle physics over the decades...

BeAChooser
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by BeAChooser » Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:30 pm

danda wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:32 am Let us say that "God" created us and everything we can observe. great. God is clearly "something" and the same logic applies to the realm in which God resides, as applies to what we can observe. To argue otherwise seems to require arguing that God is "nothing" or came from nothing.
I wasn't arguing that God isn't "something", only that if God exists, God would have to be outside the universe we know, in which case the universe wouldn't always have to have always existed as you claimed. In that case the collection of space-time, matter, and energy we call the universe could have been created at some point in the past ... and necessarily 13.8 billion years ago. But sometime.
I predict we will forever meet observation limits at both the small and large scales simply because there is always smaller and bigger/further.
Not if the Big Bangers are correct. Right now they say we are on the edge of the the ionization era they claim existed, beyond which there were no galaxies or stars. Beyond which we shouldn't be able to see. But again, my point was more ... who cares in any event? Does knowing which, significantly affect any one's life here on earth other than the astrophysicists themselves? Why are we wasting money on this right now so so many other things need funding ... and I'm not talking about AGWalarmist *studies* or new covid vaccines.

danda
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by danda » Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:16 am

BeAChooser wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 9:30 pm God would have to be outside the universe we know
I define "the universe" as "everything that exists". everything,

What we can observe of it, or "know", is probably just the tiniest portion of **infinity**. It's like imagine we are the size of an electron, inside a water molecule inside the ocean. And yet we think that our surrounding 1 billion atoms are "the entire universe". It's silly.

The logic I've stated is 100% compatible with our observable reality being a microcosm in a larger cosmos, such as "God's realm", a computer simulation, or whatever. I simply don't think those are the most likely explanations, again because of Occam's razor. I also don't think "big bang", or a series of big bangs is likely for same reason (plus others).

BeAChooser
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Re: What is absolute nothingness?

Unread post by BeAChooser » Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:53 am

danda wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 12:16 am I define "the universe" as "everything that exists". everything,
I do to, but that can't include God if he exists and created the universe.

So you are denying the possibility that a God exists.

Why didn't you just say so in the first place rather than saying "Let us say that 'God' created us."

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