Electric Sun

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
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spark
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by spark » Sat Jun 25, 2022 2:25 pm

Sun's chromosphere and corona could be same as Inner (positively charged) and Outer (negatively charged) Van Allen Belts but at much higher energy levels. Looking at Sun's photosphere can be like looking at earth's ionosphere (positively charged) but at much higher energy levels. Below the Sun's photosphere (positively charged) would be the cooler gas giant type atmosphere and then below that would be Sun's cool actual surface (negatively charged) made of rocks, metals and radioactive materials. It will kind of blur the line between stars and planets then. Fusion would occur in the photosphere and chromosphere's very powerful lightning discharges and the materials created would fall on the Sun's actual surface due to gravity depositing it there.

jacmac
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by jacmac » Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:53 pm

nick:
So, all these electrons entering at the mind boggling large surface area of the heliopause enter the Solar System and drift to the anode surface of the Sun, where they are concentrated into an incredibly small surface area (compared to the surface of the heliopause} creating arc and glow mode electric discharges as well as nuclear fusion.
If the electrons enter at the heliopause, where do they leave?
You describe the electrons enter, drift into photosphere, then discharge out ....?
to where ? back to the cathode ?
So, the Anode sun makes the electrons turn around and, in a dramatic manner, DISCHARGE out.
What power does the anode sun have that it has not received from the incoming drift electrons ?

To my mind you are describing a single tennis player(cathode) hitting a practice ball into the wall (Anode) where it bounces back
and then trying to call it a tennis game.

How is the anode sun connected to the external circuit ?
We state the heliopause (cathode) is connected to the interstellar medium.
The anode sun is totally within the heliopause cell wall(cathode).

This is why I believe the terms anode and cathode are misleading, incorrect, or both.

For these terms to work don't they both have to be connected to an external circuit ?
Don't they each have to be connected to an external circuit in a different place at different voltage levels ?
In a circuit, don't electrons (current) enter one node, do some kind of electric work, then leave via the other node ?

But, do we not have just one external place to be connected; the interstellar medium. ?
Houston, we have a problem.....

Note:
Please remember I'm on the EU non executive committee.
I propose in house remodeling, not a tear down !

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nick c
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by nick c » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:38 am

If the electrons enter at the heliopause, where do they leave?
You describe the electrons enter, drift into photosphere, then discharge out ....?
to where ? back to the cathode ?
What does the Sun radiate? Electromagnetic radiation from infrared to ultrviolet, also some gamma and x-rays. Fusion reactions in the photosphere probably account for the observed neutrinos, which is much less than expected from a nuclear reactor at the core, powered Sun.

In the ES model the cathode is a virtual cathode or a cathodeless discharge.
Thornhil wrote:Juergens makes the interesting observation that Alfven, the father of cosmic plasma physics, considered the anode region of a discharge as "rather unimportant" and has led everyone since to believe that is so. "Electrons, by virtue of their lesser mass and higher mobility compared with positive ions, usually initiate discharges and ordinarily carry a disproportionate share of the current. On this basis, apparently, it is assumed that the source of the electrons is more essential, and hence inherently more interesting, than the anode. The shortsightedness of such reasoning may be demonstrated simply by pointing out that cathodeless discharges are not unknown. ... Transmission lines carrying high-voltage direct current electric trolley wires, for example discharge almost continuously to the surrounding air. In the case of a positive (anode) wire electrons ever present in the Earth's atmosphere drift toward the wire, attracted by its positive charge. As they penetrate the increasingly intense electric field close to the wire, the electrons gain energy from the field and are accelerated to energies great enough to initiate electron avalanches as they collide with and ionize air molecules. The avalanching electrons, in turn, intensify the ionization immediately surrounding the wire. Positive ions, formed in the process, drift away from the wire in the electric field. In this way, a more or less steady discharge is maintained, although there is no tangible object other than the surrounding air that can be considered a cathode. Such a discharge is classed as a corona discharge. The region of intense activity close to the wire is referred to as the coronal envelope. And since so few "cathode" electrons are involved, and since they move so quickly through the outer region of the discharge, most of the current in this outer region is carried by the positive ions." (ibid., p. 7).
The Photosphere is in arc mode while the Corona is in glow mode, like a scaled up aurora.
Thornhill wrote:The Electric Sun model provides a cathodeless discharge centred on the Sun (as the anode) with two key observed characteristics of the Sun: the solar corona (what irony in using the same term, although a corona usually means a discharge at atmospheric pressure!) and the solar wind. To understand more about the Electric Sun we need to look at laboratory low-pressure glow discharges. Most people will remember seeing a demonstration at school of a long glass evacuated tube with metal disc electrodes at each end connected to a source of high voltage DC. You may recall the resulting glows emanating from the discs, at various places along the tube, and from the glass walls. For those who had a vacuum pump, you will have seen the glows move and disappear as the pressure was reduced. A neon sign is a conspicuous application of a low-pressure glow discharge.
From: "Summary of Ralph Juergen's Electric Sun Model"

jacmac
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by jacmac » Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:21 pm

Thanks Nick:
In the ES model the cathode is a virtual cathode or a cathodeless discharge.
Juergens makes the interesting observation that Alfven,....considered the anode region of a discharge as "rather unimportant"
The shortsightedness of such reasoning may be demonstrated simply by pointing out that cathodeless discharges are not unknown. .
In the case of a positive (anode) wire electrons ever present in the Earth's atmosphere drift toward the wire, ...............Positive ions, formed in the process, drift away from the wire in the electric field. In this way, a more or less steady discharge is maintained, although there is no tangible object other than the surrounding air that can be considered a cathode.
With a cathodeless discharge, or a virtual cathode, there seems to be some overlap with my concern about
the use of Anode and cathode. The example of a DC trolly power cable discharging to the air is understandable and true,
but it is also a secondary discharge and not the main function of the circuit.
I have expressed my views. Thanks for responding.
I'll focus on the plasma three part sun in my next post.
Jack

jacmac
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by jacmac » Mon Jun 27, 2022 9:10 pm

The ELECTRIC SUN has three distinct plasma parts;
Photosphere, Chromosphere, and Corona.
There are other parts to our solar system, but for now
I'll focus on the sun itself.

It seems obvious, to me, that the chromosphere by its nature as a Double Layer (DL) of plasma,
separates the photosphere from the corona.
Dr. Scott, page 91, The Electric Sky:
"The high-voltage plasma in the photosphere is separated
from the low-voltage plasma of the lower corona by the chromosphere.....It contains a plasma double layer(DL)"
THE INNER PLASMA
He (Scott) goes on to describe what is happening to the plasma below the chromosphere:
The high voltage photosphere acts LIKE an anode, ....operating in the ARC mode at about 5800Kelvin.
The granules are anode tufts that block all but the highest energy Ions.
The tufts also trap electrons causing the tufts to weaken and recede.
The tufts are immediately replaced---"remember the lifelike ability of plasma to sustain itself."
THE OUTER PLASMA:
From Scott again:
The chromosphere has the lowest temperatures near it's bottom (about 4000 kelvin) and also begins the transition to much higher temperatures
(about 2 million kelvin) into the lower corona. The corona plasma operates in glow mode, and has a high ion density in the lower corona.
[some sources indicate a TRANSITION Zone of only about 60 miles thick.
It is unclear to me if this is in the top of the chromosphere or has become a new separate zone.]

In my view the bottom of the corona is an area where a large amount of plasma is prevented to further enter toward the photosphere.
Similar to the top of the granules of the sun, the chromosphere DL rebuffs plasma back out within the corona.
This ,I think, happens IN ADDITION to positive ions leaving the sun.
[Scott p, 93] "Because of their high kinetic energy, any collisions they have at this point are violent and create high amplitude random motions thereby "re-thermalizing" these ions to a much higher temperature."
AND, there seems to be a connection between the photosphere granules and the "magnetic flux tubes"
that make up the solar wind.
From page 5 of this paper by Antonella Greco,
https://lesia.obspm.fr/turbu/talks/Grec ... _turbu.pdf
Turbulent cascade in the solar wind:
anisotropy and dissipation
18/09/2012, Meudon Observatory
A sketch of the flux tube texture of the solar-wind plasma. Each flux tube contains a
different plasma and the flux tubes move independently. An end view (right) depicts
the cross sections of the network of tubes. The scale sizes of the flux tubes correspond
to the scale sizes of granules on the solar surface. (From Borovsky, 2008)
I suggest there are inductive connections between the granules and the bottoms, or beginnings of the
solar wind flux tubes, originating at the lowest part of the corona. With the sun there is always more complexity to find :D

All this solar structure happens due to the ability of plasma in space to self organize, and especially to self organize into a sun.
It is said that plasma will collect on the surface of a foreign body in space to isolate it from the plasma.
I take that another step and say plasma collects onto a foreign body to anchor itself onto that body.
I think the chromosphere DL is the anchoring mechanism of the solar plasma, and therefore perhaps the most important
part of our sun for further study.
As the WEBB telescope becomes more operational I look forward to more discoveries about other suns and their structures.
Jack

allynh
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by allynh » Sun Jul 10, 2022 9:17 pm

This adds to my last post.

Buddy James: Magnetohydrodynamics | Thunderbolts
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2cAn-Gl2gU

That rips me to pieces. Yikes!

It looks like Buddy James is doing everything by hand. The Team needs to let him know about Blender.

What are Geometry Nodes?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDB7c0ZiKA

Poppa Tom
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by Poppa Tom » Tue Nov 22, 2022 4:58 pm

Poppa Tom wrote: Sat Jun 11, 2022 12:11 pm Thank all of you for your perspectives. Soooo 20 years then :lol:

Just kidding.
It is actually what I was looking for. Not 20 yrs:)
BUT...
Do neon lights burn out the encased neon gas or does it go inert or change, is more what I meant, but yeah, the convo is most excellent. TJ

Now take the sun's quantity, how long?

allynh
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by allynh » Thu Nov 24, 2022 2:35 am

Poppa Tom wrote:Now take the sun's quantity, how long?
That question keeps haunting me.

- We don't know.

The simple answer is:

- As long as the power stays on. As long as there is plasma in space, as long as the Birkeland currents keep forming to power the Sun.

But there has to be a physical limit to how long the Sun keeps shining in that electric current.

The Sun is constantly "growing" adding new atoms. I see the Sun as a gas ball with new planets being built, swirling around inside. Hollow geodes that are spit out like a string of pearls when they grow too large and are expelled. The Sun itself growing too large and splitting, becoming a binary system, to spread the current across the surfaces of the stars.

The planets we have were spit out like a string of pearls. They were stable for a while in the Polar configuration, until the rocky planets grew too large to stay in that Polar configuration, then moved into "orbit" around the Sun.

- How long does it take for each cycle of new planets to form in the Sun.

- How many times can that happen.

We don't know.

We have spotted many "Hot Jupiters" that orbit close to their stars. Who knows if they have rocky planets in a Polar configuration.

Based on the fact that it took time for the Earth to develop life while in that Polar configuration, that gives a certain minimum on time. How long it took for life to develop on Earth is another unknown.

So all that I can say is:

- Make a "guess".

BTW, I did a search and found this article about neon lights that is evocative.

How do neon lights work?
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... ghts-work/
April 17, 2006
Eric Schiff, chair of the department of physics at Syracuse University, provides this explanation.
https://static.scientificamerican.com/s ... _arch1.jpg

Image: Courtesy E. SCHIFF/Syracuse University

GAS DISCHARGE TUBES emit different colors depending on the element contained inside. Neon signs are orange, like the word physics above.
By definition, the atoms of inert gases such as helium, neon or argon never (well, almost never) form stable molecules by chemically bonding with other atoms. But it is pretty easy to build a gas discharge tubesuch as a neon lightwhich reveals that inertness is a relative matter. One need apply only a modest electric voltage to electrodes at the ends of a glass tube containing the inert gas and the light begins to glow.

It's much easier to explain why neon isn't inert in a discharge tube than it is to explain why it is inert to chemical reactions. The voltage across a discharge tube will accelerate a free electron up to some maximum kinetic energy. The voltage must be large enough so that this energy is more than that required to "ionize" the atom. An ionized atom has had an electron plucked out of an orbital to make it a "free" particle, and the atom it leaves behind has become a positively charged ion. The resulting plasma of charged ions and electrons carries the electric current between the tube's electrodes.

The photo (above) shows a gas discharge sign designed by Sam Sampere of Syracuse University. This sign incorporates a neon discharge tube (the orange word "Physics") and mercury discharge tubes (the blue word "Experience" and the outer frame). The sculpture at the bottom of the sign represents the electric and magnetic fields of light. The white and yellow sine waves in the sculpture are actually fluorescent lights. These fluorescent lights are mercury discharge tubes with special coatings on their inner walls. The ultraviolet light emitted by the mercury discharge inside a tube is absorbed by the coating, which subsequently emits light of a different color (and with a lower photon energy). Depending on the exact material of the coating, a whole range of colors can be obtained.

So why do these gas discharges emit light? As an alternative to being removed by an energetic collision, an electron on an atom can be excited. One speaks of the electron as having been promoted to an orbital of higher energy. When the electron eases back down to its original orbital, a particle of light (a photon) carries away the energy of excitationand the discharge tube glows! A photon's energy (its wavelength or color) depends on the energy difference between orbitals. A given atom can emit photons at many energies corresponding to its different pairs of orbitals. This series of photon energiesthe emission lines to a spectroscopistis unique to a particular atom. As can be seen in the sign, the mercury discharge tubes have a very different hue than the neon discharge tube does. The inert gas helium was actually discovered this way, and observations of sunlight revealed a series of photon energies that had never before been seen in discharges on the earth.

The chemical inertness of certain gases is subtler to explain. Generally speaking, when two atoms come into proximity, the highest energy, or valence, orbitals of the atoms change substantially and the electrons on the two atoms reorganize. If this reorganization lowers the total energy of the electrons involved, a chemical bond can form. For ordinary, non-inert atoms, the electrons are relatively pliable and bonds often form. The electrons in inert gases, however, are relatively resistant to this proximity effect, so these gases very rarely bond to form molecules.

The apparent contradiction between the inertness of a gas (with respect to chemical bonding) and its liveliness (in a glow discharge) is an example of a broader phenomenon that we might call the unbearable inertness of matter. An atom may be considered as an inert, unreactive particle as long as the energy of its interaction with other particles (including photons) is small enough so that the atom's electrons don't get excited. Atoms of inert gases like neon are the most tenaciously laid back. Still, as interaction energies increase, even they lose their inertness, and we ultimately get a soup of inert nuclei and electronsa highly excited plasma. Increase the energy more (actually, a lot more), and the nuclei are no longer so inert either. We get instead a brew of nucleonsas in a neutron star. Step up the energy some more, and we enter the realm of quarks. Here even nucleons are no longer inertand we have returned to the incredibly energetic, primordial conditions that prevailed shortly after the big bang.

Answer originally posted December 4, 2001.

Poppa Tom
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by Poppa Tom » Tue Dec 19, 2023 1:44 pm

:shock: :lol:
Sounds good to me.

Poppa Tom
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by Poppa Tom » Sat Jan 27, 2024 6:29 am

nick c wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 1:45 pm Lloyd,
Your argument is a strawman. Magnetic fields are ubiquitous in and surrounding the galaxy, and they are generated by electric currents.
In the Electric Sun model, the filaments are not directly attached to the VISIBLE Sun. The Sun actually extends beyond the orbit of Pluto to the heliopause. That is where the galactic filaments contact the Sun. From there, there is a net flow of electrons moving toward the Sun.

Have you even read Scott's Electric Sky? or The Interconnected Cosmos?

Electrostatics do not apply to plasmas.
Of Pith Balls and Plasmas

Note: this thread is in the Electric Universe board.
Personal or favorite theories should not be posted here.

I mustn't understand something Nick, can't he post a link? I find it very interesting.

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nick c
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by nick c » Sat Jan 27, 2024 4:26 pm

Hi Poppa Tom,
Poppa Tom wrote:
nick c wrote:Note: this thread is in the Electric Universe board.
Personal or favorite theories should not be posted here.
I mustn't understand something Nick, can't he post a link? I find it very interesting
When I made that post, this thread was on the "Electric Universe" board which is reserved for discussion of the published material of the Thunderbolts Project. Since then, the thread was moved to the NIAMI board.

So yes, now that the thread has been moved, links can be posted to non TBP subject matter or theories that run counter to those of TBP.

Poppa Tom
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Re: Electric Sun

Unread post by Poppa Tom » Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:07 pm

Mahalo Nick.....we're becoming friends aren't we. :lol:

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