Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
antosarai
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by antosarai » Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:15 pm

paladin17 wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:19 am
jimmcginn wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:37 pm The anomalies are measurable.
Which anomalies?
I repeat my question: have you predicted anything that other theories do not?
Perhaps the following link — https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 47#p118234 — could, mm, clear the weather for you?

jimmcginn
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by jimmcginn » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:24 pm

antosarai wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 5:15 pm
paladin17 wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 11:19 am
jimmcginn wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:37 pm The anomalies are measurable.
Which anomalies?
I repeat my question: have you predicted anything that other theories do not?
Perhaps the following link — https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 47#p118234 — could, mm, clear the weather for you?
Yes, read this thread. As you will see, MosaicDave thought he proved something--something that is actually impossible. He thought this experiment proved that the evaporated moisture in air is itself gaseous. It isn't. In fact that is a pretty dumb thing to believe. (Which is strange when you consider it is an assumptions of the standard model of storms for meteorology). When you consider the gaseous phase of H2O can only exist (at ambient pressures) at temperatures that are much higher than is possible in earth's atmosphere then you have to assume it is only ignorant or stupid people that would believe such a dumb premise. Fortunately MosaicDave realized his error and conceded the point.

However, this experiment/demonstration did, in my opinion, demonstrate something that is very interesting. The levitative force that causes heavier micro and nanodroplets to rise through the lighter gases of earth's atmosphere (which is probably a result of the fact that earth's atmosphere is electrically charged) is only an upward force. This force cannot/does not cause moisture to travel downward in the bottle.

You must watch this video:
Proof that Meteorology is Pretending to Understand Storms
https://youtu.be/Mp2VwjreqMc

James McGinn / Genius

BipedalJoe
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by BipedalJoe » Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:54 pm

Jim McGinn, self-proclaimed Genius, who has a strong dislike for Gerald Pollack's work, has hijacked this thread a bit. While everyone is always looking for a stage for their work, and "academia" is pushing a lot of good work and ideas to the edges, I opened this forum post for a specific topic. So if possible, let it be focused on that topic, and use other channels for discussing some other topic.

For anyone actually interested in the topic, the proton transfer in osmosis was proven in 2009. The pH decreases in the compartment where water increases, and it increases where water decreases. Instead of saying "Pollack has failed", refute the experimental evidence. The "dense solid phase" is a perfect mechanism for generating that pH gradient, as is stated in the abstract of their 2009 article. The "dense solid phase" is perfect for that, because it is "ionized", electrically polarized, having excluded the protons that link sheets of ice vertically. This is why it has higher density than ice, and higher density than water, so it is favoured at surfaces from pressure forcing water into that phase.

Here is Pollack et al published evidence from 2009, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

jimmcginn
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by jimmcginn » Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm

BipedalJoe wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:54 pm Jim McGinn, self-proclaimed Genius, who has a strong dislike for Gerald Pollack's work, has hijacked this thread a bit. While everyone is always looking for a stage for their work, and "academia" is pushing a lot of good work and ideas to the edges, I opened this forum post for a specific topic. So if possible, let it be focused on that topic, and use other channels for discussing some other topic.

For anyone actually interested in the topic, the proton transfer in osmosis was proven in 2009. The pH decreases in the compartment where water increases, and it increases where water decreases. Instead of saying "Pollack has failed", refute the experimental evidence. The "dense solid phase" is a perfect mechanism for generating that pH gradient, as is stated in the abstract of their 2009 article. The "dense solid phase" is perfect for that, because it is "ionized", electrically polarized, having excluded the protons that link sheets of ice vertically. This is why it has higher density than ice, and higher density than water, so it is favoured at surfaces from pressure forcing water into that phase.

Here is Pollack et al published evidence from 2009, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf
Well, Pollack makes the error of not being as cynical of academia as am I. The study of water is completely screwed up by academia. Their main model is dull-witted, obviously flawed, producing upwards of 72 anomalous observations. Intellectually it is dominated by pretenders who refuse to consider that there model has failed. So all we have is morons following morons. And that is where Pollack fits in. He isn't smart enough to realize the flaw of the standard model that I have fixed:

Why H2O Polarity is Variable
https://youtu.be/KzkxdWWg3HU

The true nature of hydrogen bonding between water molecules has been severely misrepresented by the many dolts, dunces and dingbats of academia. They have completely failed to recognize that the force associated with hydrogen bonding between water molecules, commonly referred to a "Polarity" is highly variable. The reason it is assumed to be static/constant begins with a moron named Linus Pauling, way back in the 1950s.

James McGinn / Genius

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paladin17
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by paladin17 » Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:44 pm

jimmcginn wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:29 pm Try searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.
Simple "no" would have been enough. But whatever.

jimmcginn
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by jimmcginn » Wed Dec 30, 2020 9:02 pm

paladin17 wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:44 pm
jimmcginn wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:29 pm Try searching Google, Wikipedia, etc.
Simple "no" would have been enough. But whatever.
LOL. You got nothing!!!

James Mcginn / Genius

BipedalJoe
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by BipedalJoe » Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:10 pm

jimmcginn wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 7:24 pm James McGinn / Genius
Replying here in general to anyone interested in the topic I opened. While it is always nice to have exposure for ones own ideas, to keep this topic on course, it is good if the conversation is focused around the evidence presented. In 2009, Pollack et al showed that a pH gradient develops from osmolarity gradient, and suggested an explanation for it that is based on the experimentally proven "dense solid phase" of water that forms where water contacts other surfaces and that can be visually observed in a normal microscope. http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

It might not seem too central to the electric universe model, but, I overall think that this topic is central to the electrical properties of biology that could be seen as a subset of electric universe theory. So it is related although it isn't electrical cosmology directly like Thunderbolts.info is focused on, but if "electrical biology" is part of the conversation on the electric universe then I guess this topic fits here in New Insights and Mad Ideas. I also see it tie in to the idea that water is produced during electrical discharges, such as thunderstorms, from protons and O2 in the atmosphere. That would be an analogous process, just at different scale.

jimmcginn
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by jimmcginn » Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:35 am

BipedalJoe wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 10:10 pm . . . based on the experimentally proven "dense solid phase" of water that forms where water contacts other surfaces and that can be visually observed in a normal microscope.
The "dense solid phase" of which you speak is simply surface tension. Pollack didn't discover it. It's been known for quite some time. The current paradigm cannot explain it. I can. In my videos I make it PERFECTLY CLEAR why H2O has surface tension. Pollack is just confused and doing his best to pretend he's not confused. Many people think they see truth in Pollack's words. To me it's obvious he is just confused and otherwise ignorant of quantom mechanics which, as I explain explicity, is where the mistake was made by Linus Pauling that has everybody (except me) confused.

You are wasting your time with Gerald Pollack. He is neither rigorous nor reductive. And he would have to be both, as am I, to solve the problems with the theory of water that I have solved.

James McGinn / Genius

BipedalJoe
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by BipedalJoe » Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:13 pm

jimmcginn wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 12:35 am In my videos I make it PERFECTLY CLEAR why H2O has surface tension. Pollack is just confused and doing his best to pretend he's not confused.
Replying in general to anyone interested in the topic I opened this thread around. As mentioned, it is nice to have space for ones ideas but this thread was opened around a specific topic. Personal attacks against an individual, I think are pretty normal but they can trigger forum moderation and I'd rather not be moderated because someone else is going into ad hominem, so just pointing that out. I personally have a lot of respect for Gerald Pollack's work, as do many others on this forum.

To not stray from the topic, Pollack et al presented strong evidence of the proton transfer in osmosis in 2009, and explain how it is supported by the "dense solid phase" that becomes ionically polarized from normal pressure. This phase is visible in a microscope and it can also be observed as "surface tension", the surface of water actually being a very thin solid (or "gel phase" is what Pollack calls it but seems pretty solid to me) ice phase formed from atmospheric pressure.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/do ... 1&type=pdf

jimmcginn
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by jimmcginn » Fri Jan 01, 2021 6:16 pm

BipedalJoe wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 4:13 pm strong evidence of the proton transfer in osmosis in 2009, and explain how it is supported by the "dense solid phase" that becomes ionically polarized from normal pressure. This phase is visible in a microscope and it can also be observed as "surface tension", the surface of water actually being a very thin solid (or "gel phase" is what Pollack calls it but seems pretty solid to me) ice phase formed from atmospheric pressure.
You are wasting your time. There is no such thing as being, "ionically polarized from normal pressure." I perfectly explain surface tension. It is the variability of H2O polarity that is the source of the variable behaviors. Pollack is not a clear thinker. He has very little understanding of the mechanics of atoms and molecules. It is blatant silliness to suggest that H2O atoms can so easily break their covalent bonds and reform them as he suggests.
the surface of water actually being a very thin solid (or "gel phase" is what Pollack calls it but seems pretty solid to me) ice phase formed from atmospheric pressure.
You are very confused. Why in the world would you conclude/assume that surface tension is caused by atmospheric pressure? This is the problem with people like Pollack and yourself. Instead of just admitting that you are confused you put forth a hunch and then pretend that it is rational. That is not rational. That is blatant nonsense.

OBVIOUSLY the molecules on the surface have different properties than those below the surface. OBVIOUSLY this "difference in properties" causes the molecules along the surface to produce a higher magnitude of attractive forces than do those below the surface. OBVIOUSLY there must be some kind of qualitative difference that is causing this difference in magnitude of attractive forces. You suggest air pressure. OBVIOUSLY your suggestion is just speculation--thus the reason you have not put forth details (you don't want to admit that you don't got any). My model explains the differences by way of QUANTUM MECHANICS. My model also perfectly explains the error that Linus Pauling made that underlies all of this confusion.

Pollack is a waste of the time. He is not being honest with himself or with the public with these ion-based speculations. Worst of all he is giving people like yourself false confidence that we can ignore the mess of stupid thinking that has foisted upon us by a very confused Linus Pauling.

To use an analogy, you can't fix a car with a bad engine unless you are willing to take it apart and get down to the problem. Pollack is lazy. He isn't willing to struggle with the quantum mechanics.

You are wasting your time.

James McGinn / Genius

allynh
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by allynh » Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:02 pm

I'm coming late to this thread, sorry if someone already suggested it.

One simple test would be to have the experiment done in an enclosure filled only with Nitrogen, and see if water keeps pouring out of the membrane.

- If there is no source of external Oxygen, then there should be no water production.

That would prove the point either way.

Check with your local University Engineering Department and see if they would set up a small experiment to test it. It shouldn't cost that much. Designing the experiment, building it, doing it all on camera, would be a fun "Mr. Wizard" online class during the pandemic. That's the kind of video that many would watch on YouTube.

This video still blows my mind.

Laminar Flow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p08_KlTKP50

As an aside, I bought a case of bottled water over 15 years ago that I have never used. They are the pint plastic bottles, very thin plastic. I put them in the cupboard and forgot about them. Five years ago I was looking through the cupboard for something and saw that all of the bottles were half empty. The expiration date was 2007.

Now when I say "half empty", I don't mean that the bottles are now half full, with water up to the midpoint. They are all flat, sideways, still sealed, still with water up to the cap, but they are now flat as if crsuhed.

I suspect that the water broke down into Hydrogen and Oxygen and leaked out through the thin plastic sidewalls, over time. The seal is holding against the vacuum created and the atmosphere is crushing the bottle. I live at 7,000 feet, so that is a strong vacuum, or very thin plastic. HA!

I now have them up on the counter top just to watch them, and see if the water keeps escaping. One of these days they are going to implode. Yikes!

BipedalJoe
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by BipedalJoe » Sat Jan 02, 2021 7:00 pm

allynh wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:02 pm One simple test would be to have the experiment done in an enclosure filled only with Nitrogen, and see if water keeps pouring out of the membrane.
I agree 100%. The reason I shared the topic without having experimentally proven it, is because it is derived from a very logical (chemically) assumption, based on that the proton gradient from proton transfer has been experimentally proven by Gerald Pollack, and the fact that proton gradients are known to produce the exact chemical reactions I suggest, seen in normal acid-base batteries. The overall implications of simple hydrostatic pressure from gravity being able to liberate membrane-based electrical current through a mechanism that is behind one of the (to me) most mysterious phenomena in physics, osmosis (I started out in marine biology, high school program dedicated to it, osmosis even more fundamental in aquatic life) seemed relevant enough to share even without having tested it. But, I 100% agree and I hope to be clear with that I have not tested it, I have just documented and shared the idea, it may be nonsense, the credibility I see in it is indirect things like how it would produce membrane-based currents and membrane-currents are so commonly harnessed in biology (though people think they already explained that with the ion currents, but in my model the ion currents are just facilitating normal electron current released from breakdown of OH- at dense solid phase against membrane. ) I just figured I'd reach out and see if anyone appreciated the thought the way I did.
allynh wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:02 pm As an aside, I bought a case of bottled water over 15 years ago that I have never used. They are the pint plastic bottles, very thin plastic. I put them in the cupboard and forgot about them. Five years ago I was looking through the cupboard for something and saw that all of the bottles were half empty. The expiration date was 2007.

Now when I say "half empty", I don't mean that the bottles are now half full, with water up to the midpoint. They are all flat, sideways, still sealed, still with water up to the cap, but they are now flat as if crsuhed.
Is the volume less or the bottle just deformed?

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paladin17
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by paladin17 » Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:01 am

allynh wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 8:02 pm I suspect that the water broke down into Hydrogen and Oxygen and leaked out through the thin plastic sidewalls, over time. The seal is holding against the vacuum created and the atmosphere is crushing the bottle. I live at 7,000 feet, so that is a strong vacuum, or very thin plastic. HA!
The vapor leakage through walls seems to be the most plausible explanation (see here). However, dissolution of water into O and H doesn't necessarily happen - it may leak in molecular form actually (see picture here). I would assume you bottles are made of PET(E), which "makes a good gas and fair moisture barrier", i.e. fair, but not that great, probably - hence the leakage.

allynh
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Re: Osmosis produces water from external oxygen

Unread post by allynh » Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:02 pm

BipedalJoe,

The volume is less. Looking at them now I'd say that instead of a pint, that they are now a cup of liquid in each.

paladin17,

The pictures are not as extreme as my reality.

No wonder the bottles have an expiration date on them.

Thanks...

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