The Dark Moon

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:06 pm

Higgsy
Nice story. Any evidence for that grotesque claim? I mean published papers not news reports or conspiracy theories
.
I'm still waiting for you or one of your skeptics cohorts or anyone else in the world to prove to me that the Sun emits any visible light or heat. Where is the peer reviewed proof? It is an assumption on which the whole house of cards that is present day astronnomy and astrophysics is built.

P Michael
@GaryN - Do you have any comment on LaFreniere's Light Theory?
A very reasonable theory I'd say. If you search

Code: Select all

lafreniere site:http://thunderbolts.info
you will find our previous posts on the subject.
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Oct 23, 2020 11:00 pm

GaryN wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:06 pm Higgsy
Nice story. Any evidence for that grotesque claim? I mean published papers not news reports or conspiracy theories
.
I'm still waiting for you or one of your skeptics cohorts or anyone else in the world to prove to me that the Sun emits any visible light or heat.
I got your answer to my question and no, you haven’t got any evidence. Thanks.
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

moses
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by moses » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:20 am

Higgsy,
At full Moon there is no reflected light coming from Earth going to the Moon. So near the full Moon there would be very little reflected light hitting the Moon but the dark side of the Moon is still as visible as that of the half Moon.

Ok, the Oren-Nayar model will work if the surface of the Moon is sufficiently rough. So I am leaning towards reflected light rather than predominantly generated light. If the light was generated in the atmosphere then we would not see the Sun.

Cheers,
Mo

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Sat Oct 24, 2020 12:04 pm

moses wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:20 am Higgsy,
At full Moon there is no reflected light coming from Earth going to the Moon. So near the full Moon there would be very little reflected light hitting the Moon but the dark side of the Moon is still as visible as that of the half Moon.
Are you sure about that? Do you have measured data that shows it to be so?
Ok, the Oren-Nayar model will work if the surface of the Moon is sufficiently rough. So I am leaning towards reflected light rather than predominantly generated light. If the light was generated in the atmosphere then we would not see the Sun.
Yes, that is a rational conclusion.
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

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nick c
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by nick c » Sat Oct 24, 2020 4:29 pm

Perhaps this is a naive question, but doesn't the fact that lunar features as seen from Earth (caters, mountains, rilles, etc) are perceived by a telescopic observer because they are defined by their shadows? and what source of light other than the Sun could possibly produce those shadows?

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:26 pm

Hi Nick,
At full moon there would be no shadows but we still see many features on the Moon due to the difference in albedo of the surface materials. The light on the lunar surface, much like Earth is a combination of a beam and diffuse illumination, which is conventionally described as being produced by scattering of visible sunlight. However if it can not be shown by experiment that from space there is any visible sunlight then a different process must be operating. On Earth the conversion from non-visible to visible light is due to the atmosphere, as it is on the Moon, except that it is the silica dust in the lunar daytime atmosphere that is producing the visible light. This is an accepted scientific process.
From Earth we can measure the strength of the beam illumination with the pyrheliometer, but if that was tried on the Moon it would be found that there is very little heat from the Sun, a fact that will be verified if any of the proposed lunar mining operations attempts to use solar concentrators to smelt the ore. The light on the Moon is due to fluorescence, a cold light. The process is much more complex on Earth, but again without experiments I am certainly not going to try and figure out what is no doubt a very complex multi stage process of absorption and emission by assorted molecules in the atmosphere. The heat from the Sun is from IR emissions of CO2 in the lower atmosphere, there is none in the lunar atmosphere. No doubt there is scattering in the lower atmosphere to some degree, but the blue sky is I'd wager is not from scattering but airglow, mainly the 486 nm Balmer line, though wikipedia says the blue sky is mainly 485 nm. I haven't tested that myself. Experiments are the way to go, I have no fear of the results. Maybe not exactly what Ipredict, but certainly far from what mainstream tells us.
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

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nick c
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by nick c » Sun Oct 25, 2020 3:18 pm

At full moon there would be no shadows but we still see many features on the Moon due to the difference in albedo of the surface materials.
Sure, during a full moon an observer can see many features resulting from variations in the brightness of the different surfaces. But any lunar astronomer will tell you that the full moon is the worst time to view.
Rayed craters such as Tycho or Copernicus are bright and readily recognized while the moon is full. But to see them in detail one needs to have shadows. Lunar observers observe along the terminator as it travels across the waning or waxing moon because that is where the shadows are long and consequently craters, rilles, and mountains are sharply defined.

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Sun Oct 25, 2020 4:22 pm

GaryN's post is a combination of extraordinary claims, stated as facts but without any rational support, and assertions which are blatantly wrong.
GaryN wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:26 pm On Earth the conversion from non-visible to visible light is due to the atmosphere, as it is on the Moon, except that it is the silica dust in the lunar daytime atmosphere that is producing the visible light. This is an accepted scientific process.
By considering geometric optics it is obvious that on a clear day the light rays from the sun travel directly from a point on the Sun's surface to Earth's surface. That this must be so, is made clear by the fact that features on the Sun's surface can be observed from the Earth. So what is this "accepted scientific process" that down-converts the frequency of "non-visible" light (ultra-violet, X-ray?) to visible light, with a close to black body spectrum of 5800K complete with the Fraunhofer lines of atomic absorption in the Sun, and with the outgoing photons continuing on the same path as the incoming photons? This process must by inelastic (by definition since it reduces the frequency of the photons) so what happens to the lost energy? Indeed what is the solar mechanism by which the Sun produces only UV and X-ray energy? What about the detailed spectra of all the stars and galaxies that we can measure? Are they also preserved through the same "accepted scientific process".
From Earth we can measure the strength of the beam illumination with the pyrheliometer, but if that was tried on the Moon it would be found that there is very little heat from the Sun, a fact that will be verified if any of the proposed lunar mining operations attempts to use solar concentrators to smelt the ore.
A pyrheliometer measures the total area energy density of illumination coming directly from the Sun, in a band from 200nm to 10,000nm (from the mid-UV-C to the mid-IR, including the visible). It does not measure just infra-red radiation. All absorbed frequencies contribute to heating a target. In fact the shorter wavelength UV consists of photons with a higher energy per photon than visible and IR, and so each UV photon will contribute more energy (and heating) to a target.
The light on the Moon is due to fluorescence, a cold light.
This is not even wrong. What is a cold light (in scientific raather than artistic terms)? All absorbed electromagnetic radiation of whatever frequency contributes to heating a target. If by a cold light, you mean light that does not contain an IR component then this also wrong as fluorescence can occur across the electromagnetic spectrum, including in the IR.
The process is much more complex on Earth, but again without experiments I am certainly not going to try and figure out what is no doubt a very complex multi stage process of absorption and emission by assorted molecules in the atmosphere.
The experiments have largely been done, and you just need to take account of the results.
The heat from the Sun is from IR emissions of CO2 in the lower atmosphere, there is none in the lunar atmosphere.
Apart from the fact that there isn't the slightest shred of evidence to support this assertion, it is wrong in other ways. All solar wavelengths contribute to the heating of an absorbing surface, the heating is not confined to the IR.
No doubt there is scattering in the lower atmosphere to some degree, but the blue sky is I'd wager is not from scattering but airglow, mainly the 486 nm Balmer line,
This is wrong. First of all, hydrogen makes up about half a part per million of the atmosphere, and that tiny trace amount is almost all molecular hydrogen. There simply isn't any atomic hydrogen in the atmosphere to produce the Hβ line. But even more damning is the fact that the spectrum of the blue sky is not a single line but is exactly what you would expect if the standard explanation is correct - the near BB spectrum of the Sun multiplied by the Rayleigh scattering curve for the molecular species present in the atmosphere.
though wikipedia says the blue sky is mainly 485 nm.
Does it really? Where does it say that?
Experiments are the way to go, I have no fear of the results. Maybe not exactly what Ipredict, but certainly far from what mainstream tells us.
Enough experiments have been done to show that this hypothesis is a non-starter.

Perhaps you should also look at the results from SOHO specifically designed to study the Sun, and located at the Sun-Earth L1 point 1.5 million km from Earth, and ACRIMSAT which measured the Spectral Solar Irradiance at 700km orbit.
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:26 pm

By considering geometric optics it is obvious that on a clear day the light rays from the sun travel directly from a point on the Sun's surface to Earth's surface. That this must be so, is made clear by the fact that features on the Sun's surface can be observed from the Earth.
Yes, but can they be observed from space using the same hardware? To me this is what it all comes down to. As a scientist why am I not allowed to see the proof, by way of some very simple experiments, that measures the Suns visible and thermal infrared emissions in the same way that we do from Earth. You are telling me that some assumptions are not to be questioned and that I should base my whole belief system on 'facts' that have never been scientifically proven.
What I am attempting is to show that this very basic 'fact' is not in fact a fact! How can I do that? I can not go to space and perform the tests myself so must look at what science has been performed and if it matches theory. Lets go back to the Apollo video camera. Is it true that the Apollo video cameras were designed for light levels much lower than what would be expected if the accepted values of sunlight were to be used to calculate those levels?
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

moses
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by moses » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:04 am

What about the ozone layer protecting our hardware from undesirable radiation. I doubt we could ever use the same hardware in space.
Cheers,
Mo

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:51 pm

GaryN wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:26 pm
By considering geometric optics it is obvious that on a clear day the light rays from the sun travel directly from a point on the Sun's surface to Earth's surface. That this must be so, is made clear by the fact that features on the Sun's surface can be observed from the Earth.
Yes, but can they be observed from space using the same hardware? To me this is what it all comes down to.
You are missing the point that any frequency conversion mechanism must act without deviating the rays. You said it is an "accepted scientific process". I'd like to know what you think it is.
As a scientist why am I not allowed to see the proof, by way of some very simple experiments, that measures the Suns visible and thermal infrared emissions in the same way that we do from Earth.
The Sun's attributes have been measured over decades from space, including from the satellite experiments that I mentioned in my previous posts. ACRIMSAT specifically measured the spectral irradiance of the Sun over 13 years. Don't you think if there was any startling deviation from the spectrum measured on Earth, for example the complete absence of visible and IR wavelengths, that someone might have noticed?
You are telling me that some assumptions are not to be questioned and that I should base my whole belief system on 'facts' that have never been scientifically proven.
I am not telling you any such thing. You are entitled to believe whatever you like, no matter how lacking in supporting evidence and viable mechanisms it is. You are free to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden if you want. However, when you state your hypotheses, I am entitled to point out the lack of evidence and viable mechanisms for your assertions. I notice that you failed to respond to a single one of the specific points and questions I raised in the previous post. In the meantime, why should anyone lend any more credence to your general hypothesis than to your assertion that the sky is blue because of Hβ line emission?
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:53 pm

Moses
What about the ozone layer protecting our hardware from undesirable radiation. I doubt we could ever use the same hardware in space.
The ISS astronauts take their D4s out on space walks, the Apollo film cameras worked just fine on the Moon. The spectral instruments do suffer degradation of sensor performance with time but fro my experiments there should be no problem

Higgsy
ACRIMSAT specifically measured the spectral irradiance of the Sun over 13 years.
..SOHO specifically designed to study the Sun
You don't seem to understand these instruments at all.

Solspec also from the ISS, but using that data in any meaningful way means ASSUMING that the Sun is a near blackbody, which has not been proven by the most basic measurements with the simplest of instruments from outside of Earths atmosphere. You won't find any proof, I've e-mailed all the big institutions and they can provide me with none, not even with a photograph. All images of the Sun from space are artists impressions or from spectral instruments, or photographed from the ISS looking though Earths atmosphere. There are no solar filters, the ND filter in particular, kept on the ISS and there is no way to look AWAY from Earth to photograph a noon Sun even if they did have such filters.
Yes, we can all believe what we want, and I will until I see PROOF that the Sun emits any visible light or heat using emprical scientific methods. Again, you ask me for the evidence that proves the sun is not visible from space, asking me to prove a negative. No, it's up to you to prove it IS. So I think we are at an impasse here.
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:55 pm

GaryN wrote: Tue Oct 27, 2020 7:53 pm You don't seem to understand these instruments at all.
On the contrary.
Solspec also from the ISS, but using that data in any meaningful way means ASSUMING that the Sun is a near blackbody, which has not been proven by the most basic measurements with the simplest of instruments from outside of Earths atmosphere.
Utter nonsense. The spectral irradiance from the various SOLSPEC and SOSP missions (ATLAS1, ATLAS2, ATLAS3, EURECA and SOLAR), and SORCE plainly show the IR and visible components of direct sunlight above the atmosphere. None of these reference spectra assume that the Sun is a near blackbody. The fact is that they measure the Sun's spectral irradiance. From space. For example , I refer you to figure 8 of Meftah et al, A&A6111, A1 (2018). It is clear that in all of these spectra, far from there being no visible light present, on the contrary, the Sun's output peaks in the visible.
All images of the Sun from space are artists impressions or from spectral instruments...
From spectral instruments. Exactly. Spectral instruments measure the irradiance as a function of wavelength. They clearly show that far from there being no visible light present, on the contrary, the Sun's output peaks in the visible.
Yes, we can all believe what we want, and I will until I see PROOF that the Sun emits any visible light or heat using emprical scientific methods.
I don't know what could be more compelling (or empirical, or scientific) than the reference solar spectra.
Again, you ask me for the evidence that proves the sun is not visible from space, asking me to prove a negative.
I never asked you to prove a negative. I asked you whether you had any evidence for your hypothesis that the Sun emits no visible and IR radiation and that therefore that the visible and IR light on the Earth (and the Moon) comes from some ill-defined down-conversion process in the Earth's atmosphere (and in a supposed silica atmosphere on the Moon). These conversion processes are necessary consequences of your hypothesis that the Sun emits no visible light, and yet we have seen no evidence for any such process, nor any viable proposed mechanism for the process, nor indeed any rationale for why the Sun would emit no visible or IR light. All we get are blatantly and trivially wrong claims such as the blue sky being Hβ line emission. Meanwhile the spectrum of the Sun measured above the atmosphere peaks in the visible.

I don't even understand why you would entertain your idea for more than a millisecond; or why, faced with the dearth of evidence to support it, that you continue to cleave to it like an article of faith.
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

Cargo
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Cargo » Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:39 am

I would like to see a picture of the milky way from the dark side of the moon. Of course basic data about the camera used is important too. Was it a 10-hour exposure and such.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
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Brent72
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Brent72 » Fri Oct 30, 2020 2:48 am

With the recent discovery of water on the moon, you'd think it would have already evaporated off if there was light hitting it at the red end of the spectrum?
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