The Dark Moon

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Wed Dec 09, 2020 1:05 am

GaryN wrote: Tue Dec 08, 2020 8:27 pm I see what I did wrong, I did not include the http://
http://www3.telus.net/myworld/A8Aitken.png

So given the Moons albedo and the 120-130,000 lumens value of Sunlight (measured at the top of Earths atmosphere) then a simple model would show that the lunar surface illumination of Aiken is far below what would be expected.
Really? Why do you think 1/250 @ f/5.6 and a medium sensitiviity film for a somewhat overexposed frame is any different from what we would expect on the Moon. We don't know what the astronauts were measuring (luminance of the scene or illuminance at the camera) but those figures are pretty much what I would expect. The exposure of the moon from Earth is 1/160 @ f/9 ISO100 (my measurement). Seems the same to within one stop. On Earth we have some attenuation due to Earth's atmosphere and we don't know the equivalent ISO of the film or the transmission of the Command module window, but the the exposure from the Earth and from the CM are in the same ballpark. I don't see any anomaly here with the exposure.
As the Apollo astronauts all commented, lighting on the Moon is very strange, and a comprehensive scientific study of those conditions would no doubt lead to some very uncomfortable questions being directed at NASA. No wonder they have been foot-dragging on a return to the Moon for over 50 years.
Pure, unadulterated conspiracy theory.
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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:35 am

"..somewhat overexposed frame .."
That's due to the extended red response of the film, there is lots of light at arounf the 740-780 nm region, no use to our eyes though.

SpaceX plans to race remote-controlled cars on the Moon
https://www.newsbreak.com/news/21177229 ... on-in-2021
Maybe he could fit a light meter in there somewhere? Good to see someone making the Moon fun, it's been a terrible bore under NASA.
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:00 am

GaryN wrote: Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:35 am
"..somewhat overexposed frame .."
That's due to the extended red response of the film, there is lots of light at arounf the 740-780 nm region,
How do you know that? Panatomic-X has little sensitivity past 700nm; the sensitivity is down to by a factor of 100 by 720nm. And, as I said, the exposure is pretty much what we would expect for the Moon's surface, so where is the anomaly? There is none - it's all exactly as we would expect.
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:31 pm

Panatomic-X has little sensitivity past 700nm
You are correct. Still, if it was the 656 nm light they were after then it was fine. I think there is another strong source at 683 nm, have to look what that might be from.
so where is the anomaly? There is none - it's all exactly as we would expect.
It might be as you expect, I'd rather see some solid measurements.

If the lunar race car mission ever gets off the ground then in effect they will have a light meter on board, all that is needed is to know the on-board camera specifications and the exposure settings they use. I have looked at the web sites of the companies involved but don't see any mention of the cameras yet but will contact them if the mission progresses further.
The cost of putting something on the moon is presently around $400,000 per pound but I think the price will fall considerably if SpaceX is involved.
For a dedicated light meter there are some tiny ones that list a weight of just 8 grams, so in theory it would cost around $7000 at present rates to get one to the Moon, though how it would interface with the communications system I have not looked into. Still, this would seem like a very good project as the data would surely be of importance to any future commercial lunar missions.
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Dec 18, 2020 1:32 am

GaryN wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:31 pm
so where is the anomaly? There is none - it's all exactly as we would expect.
It might be as you expect, I'd rather see some solid measurements.
Why did you delete the first part of my statement: "the exposure is pretty much what we would expect for the Moon's surface."

Here's the thing. Everyone who thinks about these things apart from you already knows the answer because these things have been measured over and over and over again, and up and down and left and right. Everyone know the answer, except you, and no-one is going to spend a penny more on light meters for the moon. It's time to give this up. You haven't got a leg to stand on.
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:27 pm

Why did you delete the first part of my statement: "the exposure is pretty much what we would expect for the Moon's surface."
It is irrelevant if they used a film with extended red sensitivity but no filters. ALL the light could be in the extended red unless a visible light bandpass filter was used. What was present at visible wavelengths would have been best determined by using Kodachrome 64, and the exposure settings used would have given a much better idea of actual lighting levels. I'd wager on the lunar surface they would have needed 1/60 at 2.8 to 5.6 depending on viewing geometry.
Everyone know the answer, except you
Nobody knows the answer to the actual lunar surface illumination levels, and I have asked the people who should really know. You do not know either.
You haven't got a leg to stand on.
Ha ha, very good!
The dwarflike figure being trampled by his (Shiva) right foot represents apasmara purusha (illusion, which leads mankind astray).
All of present astronomy models are an illusion if the Sun or stars can not be photographed from cislunar space, or seen by eye. I'll trust the word of the Apollo astronauts who never claimed to have seen either.
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:20 pm

GaryN wrote: Fri Dec 18, 2020 6:27 pm
Why did you delete the first part of my statement: "the exposure is pretty much what we would expect for the Moon's surface."
It is irrelevant if they used a film with extended red sensitivity but no filters. ALL the light could be in the extended red unless a visible light bandpass filter was used. What was present at visible wavelengths would have been best determined by using Kodachrome 64, and the exposure settings used would have given a much better idea of actual lighting levels.
You're right. All the Apollo astronauts commented on the fact that they couldn't see the Sun, and also they were openly amazed by the fact that everything on the Moon appeared a deep red.
I'd wager on the lunar surface they would have needed 1/60 at 2.8 to 5.6 depending on viewing geometry.
So ignore actual data, and present as evidence what you think the data should be. Way to go, bro.
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:26 pm

You're right. All the Apollo astronauts commented on the fact that they couldn't see the Sun, and also they were openly amazed by the fact that everything on the Moon appeared a deep red.
You need to take into account the Purkinje effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purkinje_effect
The Astronauts only saw the Sun from either Earth orbit or the near lunar environment, and from lunar orbit they used the AOT telescope to perform a Sun sighting and as soon as the Sun went behind the Moon to see many stars. That just goes top show the incredible capabilities of the human eye, capable of looking directly at the Sun through a scope and then without any dark adaptation seeing the stars. Incredible. /s"
So ignore the actual data...
What data?
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

Higgsy
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by Higgsy » Sun Dec 20, 2020 12:55 am

GaryN wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 9:26 pm
You're right. All the Apollo astronauts commented on the fact that they couldn't see the Sun, and also they were openly amazed by the fact that everything on the Moon appeared a deep red.
You need to take into account the Purkinje effect:
That only applies in low light levels. But we know the light level isn't low from the exposure data - 1/250s @ f/5.6 and overexposed. You're claiming all that light is in the deep red. With that much exposure, all in the deep red, the envionment woudl definitely appear red not grey. So the Purkinje effect is a non-starter.
So ignore the actual data...
What data?
The actual exposure data that you yourself introduced to this thread.

Why do you hold these absurd beliefs so tenaciously in the face of ovewhelming contrary evidence?
"Why would the conservation of charge even matter?" - Cargo

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Mon Dec 28, 2020 6:12 pm

So the Purkinje effect is a non-starter.
The Apollo astronauts were kept dark adapted all the time, this is in NASA documents. There is a reason for that.
Why do you hold these absurd beliefs so tenaciously in the face of ovewhelming contrary evidence?
You failed to address the Sun check through the AOT during A13, Armstrong and Aldrin also did the same thing during A11. How did they look at the Sun and not go blind? Well, if the only photo of the Sun from lunar orbit was taken with the very high speed 2485 film and no filter then it was obviously not very bright. Why was that?
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:56 pm

How did they know the Moon was dark, and other facts about the heavens?

A Glimpse into Ancient Indian Astronomy | Khurshed Batliwala (Bawa)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ELIeg ... 7685111676

Can meditation really reveal such knowledge, or did they take a trip out there in a Vimana?
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:36 pm

India has done very well with its space missions considering its meager budgets, but it is disappointing to me that they are just as 'cheap' when it comes to releasing photos or scientific data, as are all the other space agancies.

Earth as seen from the camera on the Vikram lander of the Chandrayaan 2 mission. It would appear to be the same or similar Bayer filtered, 2 MP indutrial camera that the has been used on NASA misions.
https://www.straitstimes.com/sites/defa ... 1564911434

Photo from Vicram lander camera of the western far side of the Moon, so would be lit by sunlight but not Earthshine. No details of exposure settings or any post processing are available, but I suspect it had been adjusted to look brighter, as were the later photos available of the Israel photo of the far side.
http://www.thenorthlines.com/wp-content ... 96x438.png

In this 10 minute video by Scott Manley he examines the recently released images of the Moon from the Chandrayaan 2 orbiter and compares them to the LRO images. Very little difference, and when looking into the 'camera' specs it can be seen that both units go into the 'extended red' region, one to 750 nm and the other to 850 nm. They are panchromatic so no filters, which again means that they are likely capturing just the strong IR.
IMO, the photos are very poor resolution, and some images from Earth using high end amateur telescopes seem almost as good, surely better ones must be possible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hy8iWu ... cottManley
I suspect the problem is that taking real photos (the Chandrayaan devices use push broom sensors) would result in a great deal of motion smearing as the exposure times would need to be longish to capture enough photons under the Moons low illumination levels. There is a good reason why they do not send a Lunar orbiter with an Imax type video camera, even though units such as the ones by ARRI are cheap by aeorospace standards.
Meet the 65 Megapixel Cinema Camera Gunning for IMAX
https://nofilmschool.com/meet-65-megapi ... nning-imax
...
Here's a clever technique for moon photography from Earth:
Impossible photo of the Moon.
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/Spksi ... 970-80.jpg
https://www.space.com/terminator-moon-c ... image.html
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:50 pm

An IR Mars?

China's space probe sends back first image of Mars, landing scheduled this year
https://www.france24.com/en/asia-pacifi ... -s-landing

There does not seem to be any info on the instruments the Chinese are using, no surprise there though. There are 3 Mars missions all arriving soon, the USA latest rover, an Arab Emirates mission, and the China one, will we learn anything new?
Even with the MRO HiRISE telescope though we are not really given the straight goods, as it too is heavily reliant on the IR part of the spectrum. There is a blue-green channel, the red channel is again extended to 850nm, and the IR channel goes to 1000nm, so this instrument is not a regular camera and does not take photos in a single shot. Lots of processing involved with the data, so as with Hubble images, there is a large eye candy factor.
From Earth the largest telescopes also use IR, 2.3 microns with this one:
The Moon through an 8 meter eye.
https://skyandtelescope.org/astronomy-n ... meter-eye/
Mount Polamar also uses 2.3 microns.
Hubble also imaged the Moon, but they don't say at what wavelength. Any guesses?
https://hubblesite.org/resource-gallery/images
Here is the eye-candy image:
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/file ... o9914d.jpg
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Wed Feb 17, 2021 7:15 pm

This Twitter page has coverage of the Chinese mission to Mars. The video (20 frames/sec) from another camera is colour so I suspect they both are, and it is overexposure causing Mars to appear white. We don't know exposure time per frame or camera specs so not possible to estimate a Lux value but I'd suspect very low.
https://twitter.com/AJ_FI/status/1360147974282743809
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

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GaryN
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Re: The Dark Moon

Unread post by GaryN » Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:28 am

To (hopefully) clarify my previous post: The inspection cameras were using sunlight to be able to see their targets, but with the ALT model most of the light on Mars is created by its atmosphere and at the altitude of the orbiter there would be very little direct visible sunlight, so in order to be able to see their targets would need to increase camera gain or lengthen the exposure time. At 20 seconds and on in the first video there can be seen the thickness of what is said to be the dust layer, and that, as on the Moon, is probably where most of the visible light is created.
“I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” -Albert Einstein

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