Most Thorough Model

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?
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Most Thorough Model

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Mar 18, 2020 2:34 pm

On the 2.0 forum I had a thread by this title devoted to Charles Chandler's model, called Electric Astrophysics, at . That thread ended here last year: ... el#p127668

Lately, I started a thread asking for calculations at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=229 to help determine how much pressure would have been produced by two halves of a galactic filament imploding to form the Sun. If there was enough pressure for a long enough period of time, a large amount of heavy elements would have been formed, which would make up the Sun's core. Fusion in or below the photosphere from megalightning there would constantly add more heavy elements, which would likely settle toward the core.

Charles' model has electric double layers in the Sun, the heavy element core being positive, a negative layer over that, another positive layer of medium heavy elements, another negative layer and the outer layer positive. The gravity is strong enough to force electrons out of the layer and it's called EDP, electron degeneracy pressure. We initially called it Compressive Ionization, which I think is a better description. He figured that meteoric airbursts, like the Tunguska event, etc, are caused by electrons being pulled out of the interior of a meteor via microfissures, leaving positive charge inside that becomes strong enough to blow it apart. I asked him why the positive and negative layers in the Sun would not also blow apart like that. I suppose the Sun's gravity may be strong enough to prevent explosion. I'd like to see a calculation of how much positive and negative charge the Sun's layers would have. Charles thinks the layers rotate at different speeds and that determines the Sun's magnetic field.

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Re: Most Thorough Model

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Mar 23, 2020 4:36 pm


_LK: "Charles, if EDP expels electrons from positive layers in the Sun, what would prevent the positive and negative layers from exploding? You said regarding airbursts, that electrons get pulled out of the interior, causing them to explode. Would gravity be strong enough in the Sun to prevent explosion?"

_CC: In the case of exploding bolides, electrons are pulled out of the bolide by the frictional charging in the air outside the bolide, and there is nothing else holding the bolide together, so it disintegrates. But in the case of EDP from gravitational loading, the forces will always be at equilibrium, with gravity pulling inward, and the Coulomb force between +ions pushing back out. No matter how much gravity is present, the Coulomb force will always be able to match it, the electric force being so much more powerful. So as G increases, so does E, but there won't be more E than G, since G is the prime mover. E will only ever match G, preventing further compression, but not exceeding G and affecting expansion.

Analogously, when I depress the piston in a bicycle tire pump, it compresses the air inside the cylinder. This is hydrostatic potential, and I could put all of my weight on the piston, and there would always be enough hydrostatic pressure the match the gravitational loading, since there's no theoretical limit to hydrostatic pressure. But that doesn't mean that the pressure will rebound — it merely achieves an equilibrium. Unless of course I somehow got the gas inside the cylinder up to that pressure without any gravitational loading, in which case the pressure would ram the piston to the far end of the cylinder. So the bolide blows up when charged, because nothing matches the Coulomb force pushing outward, while the Sun doesn't blow up, with gravity in equilibrium with the Coulomb force.

(See also: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=229 )

_LK: Also, I'm trying to find out how much pressure would have been produced in the final stages when the Sun's filament imploded, to see how much fusion of heavy elements might be expected. I guess EDP would have been achieved at that point. Right?"

_CC: That would be a very complex calculation, with all of the forces in extreme ranges, including inertial, gravitational, magnetic, & electric. So it's going to be a lot more complicated than just two high-velocity jets colliding. I'm actually not even thinking of it as a collision per se. If it's an imploding filament, those extreme-velocity plasma jets would more likely just burrow through each other, instead of "colliding" head-on. So I'm thinking that the plasma jets start to burrow through each other, and would pass straight through each other with almost no friction at all, but the magnetic force brakes the jets, bringing them to a halt at the "collision" point. A positive charge stream generates a magnetic field by the right-hand rule, where the thumb points in the direction of the positive current, and the other fingers point in the direction of the magnetic field. This is true for the plasma jet coming in from the other direction, except that the magnetic field is opposite. So when these charge streams meet, the magnetic force resists them burrowing through each other. As a result, the matter piles up at the "collision" point. Then gravity takes over. It's the weakest of the forces, but it has the distinction of being purely attractive, so it's going to pull everything together. This results in greater pressure at the centroid, so that's where the EDP starts. And once the charged double-layers get set up, that's the organizational framework for holding the whole thing together.

To visualize this, imagine stretching a rubber band tight and then letting it go. With the tensile force running through the whole thing, all of the rubber reaches the center at the same time. Then, of course, it bounces off of itself, because all of the velocity got converted to elastic potential that affected a rebound. So why don't plasma jets on star-building manuevers just bounce off of themselves? The proposed answer is that the matter gets to the center and just stops, because counter-streaming plasma jets generate opposing magnetic fields. So it's a sort of "magnetic friction" that brings the jets to a halt. And if enough matter arrives at the center and just stops, gravity can supply the organizational structure to keep it all together, with charged double-layers clinging to each other.

But to calculate it? Without funding??? ;)

_LK: How much will you need?

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Re: Most Thorough Model

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:29 pm


I'm trying to determine how much fusion is likely involved when filaments collapse to form stars. The filaments contain mostly hydrogen, I think, and interstellar dust. Charles Chandler has these two papers in which he discusses electrically charged Debye cells in filaments.
He doesn't say what Debye cells contain, so I looked online to get some idea.


Interstellar dust grains generally start off as carbon or silicate grains, which later accumulate additional atoms of the most abundant elements (hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen) to form icy mantles of water ice, methane, carbon monoxide, and ammonia. All of this is encased in a sticky outer layer of molecules and simple organic compounds created through interaction of the mantle with incoming UV light.

Dust grains have a .05 micron core of silicate, iron, or carbon, a .5 micron mantle of ice of CO2, H2O, CH4, NH3 and a thin surface of molecules and simple organic compounds.

Typical interstellar dust grains are much smaller than dust on Earth and resemble more closely the soot from a candle flame. They are about the same size as the wavelength of blue light.

Dust grains make up only about 1% of the mass of the interstellar medium.

The surfaces of dust grains operate as little chemical factories, bringing together atoms that might otherwise rarely meet and catalyzing their reactions. For example, with the conditions present in molecular clouds, it is quite rare that two colliding hydrogen atoms would stick to form a molecule. However, H2 molecules can form when the atoms are attached to the sticky tar-like surface of a dust grain which is able to absorb the excess energy of the collision.

Dust helps to reduce the ionisation level of an interstellar gas cloud. The dust grains absorb the ionising UV radiation and protect molecules that have already formed from being destroyed by the radiation field.

Dust grains keep interstellar gas clouds cool by absorbing the energy from both gas-grain collisions and UV radiation. These heated grains later re-emit the energy in the infrared and, so long as the cloud is transparent to infrared radiation, keep the cloud cool.

So filaments start out 99% hydrogen and 1% C, N, O, Si, Fe etc and according to Charles' reasoning at the Sun is now Os, Pt, Ni, Fe, He and H. He says the Sun appears to be fusing elements in the lower photosphere from megalightning, but I reckon most of the interior elements were fused during the initial filament collapse. I showed elsewhere how much pressure is needed to fuse some elements. The above info says dust grains are neutral, but Charles says they are slightly negatively charged due to excess electron collisions. So I'll try to ask him about that sometime.

This is interesting. "Asteroidal dust resembles carbonaceous chondritic meteorites. Cometary dust resembles interstellar grains which can include silicates, polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, and water ice."

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