Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Lloyd]

137636

PREVIOUS POST ON SATURN COLORS
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =615#p6497

WATER IN SATURN'S RINGS IS LIKE EARTH'S WATER

Recently Nick posted a link to a 2018 article on this at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... ?f=4&t=692

The article title and link are: The Saturn system has water just like Earth's ... except for Phoebe
https://www.astronomy.com/news/2018/12/ ... for-phoebe

It says "based on spectroscopic observations of the Saturn system from Cassini, the water in Saturn’s rings and moons is surprisingly like the water on Earth".

However, "On Phoebe, the D/H ratio “is the highest value yet measured in the solar system". And "While Iapetus’ 13C/12C ratio closely matches Earth’s, Phoebe’s ratio is also skewed, showing five times more 13C than the “normal” 12C."

"The terrestrial-like D/H of Saturn’s rings and satellites may indicate a similar water source for the inner and outer solar system...."

This paper at https://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1981A%26A....93..189G says the most likely source of enhanced deuterium is chemical reactions at low temperature.

The graph in the 2014 paper at https://sci.esa.int/web/rosetta/-/55118 ... lar-system shows that the gas giant planets, including Saturn, have much lower D/H ratios than does Earth. So it looks like Saturn's rings and moons, not counting Phoebe, have ratios close to Earth's while Saturn itself has much less, even less than the other gas giants. It also shows Saturn moon Enceladus having a higher ratio than Earth, like most comets. Most asteroids are shown with ratios close to Earth's, but some are a little higher, like comets.

I'm not sure what to make of all this. Earth's water may have come from asteroids or from Saturn's rings or moons, or the asteroids may have come from Saturn's rings too, but not from Saturn itself, unless there was a way for the deuterium to increase during novas or flareups.

An abstract at https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11536522/ says the D/H ratio for Mars is 5 times that of Earth and for Venus is 100 times that of Earth.

That means a graph showing Saturn, its rings & moons, Venus, Mars and Earth as they were arranged during the Golden Age of Saturn would have D/H numbers like this:
Saturn near 0,
rings & moons 1,
Venus 100,
Mars 5,
Earth 1.
Jupiter would also be near 0, but not as near 0 as Saturn. Jupiter would have been probably either above Saturn or below Earth.

[Lloyd]

139563

YOUNG CONTINENTS

I want to get these sources posted for future reference. They're supposedly about Young Earth evidence, but I think the continents formed fairly recently and that the rest of the Earth existed prior to that. Charles Chandler and Mike Fischer have similar models that show that the supercontinent likely formed from an asteroid making a soft landing on Earth, possibly by spiraling down gradually. The asteroid would have been granite, while Earth was basalt, which is why the continents are mostly granite, while ocean basins are mostly basalt. Granite can also form from sedimentary rock via heating, but the sedimentary rock likely formed from two Great Floods, which moved continental shelf sediment (and degassed CO2 as lime) onto the supercontinent and later continents to form the sedimentary rock strata.

The 10 Best Evidences from Science that Confirm a Young Earth
https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-f ... ung-earth/

1. Very Little Sediment on the Seafloor
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/se ... -seafloor/
The Sands of Time: A Biblical Model of Deep Sea-Floor Sedimentation
http://www.icr.org/research/index/researchp_lv_r01/
The Sands of Time: A Biblical Model of Deep Sea-Floor Sedimentation
http://www.icr.org/article/deep-sea-flo ... mentation/
“Sea Salt, Erosion, and Sediments” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past1
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... iments.pdf

2. Bent Rock Layers
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/ro ... ck-layers/
Folded Rock Layers
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/ro ... fractured/
“Soft-Sediment Deformation Features” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past2
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... mation.pdf
“Megasequences of North America” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past3
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... uences.pdf

3. Soft Tissue in Fossils
https://answersingenesis.org/fossils/3- ... n-fossils/
Two: Those Not-So-Dry Bones
https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/ ... dry-bones/
More Soft Tissue in “Old” Fossils
https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/ ... d-fossils/

4. Faint Sun Paradox
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... n-paradox/
The Young Faint Sun Paradox and the Age of the Solar System
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... ar-system/

5. Rapidly Decaying Magnetic Field
https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-f ... tic-field/
The Earth’s Magnetic Field Is Young
http://www.icr.org/article/371/
The Earth’s Magnetic Field and the Age of the Earth
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... the-earth/
“The Earth’s Magnetic Field” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past4
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... -Field.pdf

6. Helium in Radioactive Rocks
https://answersingenesis.org/age-of-the ... ive-rocks/
Helium Diffusion Rates Support Accelerated Nuclear Decay
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/ra ... ear-decay/
Young Helium Diffusion Age of Zircons Supports Accelerated Nuclear Decay
http://www.icr.org/article/young-helium ... e-zircons/
The Age of the Earth’s Atmosphere Estimated by its Helium Content
http://www.icr.org/article/age-earth-atmosphere-helium/
“Helium in Rocks and in the Atmosphere” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past5
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... Helium.pdf

7. Carbon-14 in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/ca ... -diamonds/
Carbon-14 in Fossils and Diamonds
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/ca ... -diamonds/
Carbon-14 Evidence for a Recent Global Flood and a Young Earth
http://www.icr.org/article/carbon-14-ev ... nt-global/
Measurable 14C in Fossilized Organic Materials: Confirming the Young Earth Creation-Flood Model
http://www.icr.org/article/young-earth- ... flood-14c/
“The Pitfalls in the Radioactive Dating Methods—The Radiocarbon Dating Method” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past6
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... Dating.pdf
“Carbon-14 Dating” from Thousands . . . not Billions7
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... rbon14.pdf

8. Short-Lived Comets
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... ed-comets/
Comets and the Age of the Solar System
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... ar-system/
Kuiper Belt Objects: Solution to Short-Period Comets?
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... od-comets/
More Problems for the ‘Oort Comet Cloud’
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... met-cloud/

9. Very Little Salt in the Sea
https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-f ... n-the-sea/
The Sea’s Missing Salt: A Dilemma for Evolutionists
http://www.icr.org/article/sea-missing-salt/
“Sea Salt, Erosion, and Sediments” from Earth’s Catastrophic Past8
https://assets.answersingenesis.org/doc ... a-salt.pdf

10. DNA in “Ancient” Bacteria
https://answersingenesis.org/natural-se ... -bacteria/
Bacterial Life in Ancient Salt
https://answersingenesis.org/origin-of- ... ient-salt/

(Full Links)
http://funday.createaforum.com/science- ... essage=387

[Lloyd]

140626

ESKERS SHOW WHERE THE ICE SHEET WAS

Here's a map of North American eskers
https://imgbox.com/2C7uTFoM
_You can see that most of Canada and northern U.S. were covered by the ice sheet. Below, I give links to European esker maps too.

ESKERS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esker
_An esker ... is a long, winding ridge of stratified sand and gravel, examples of which occur in glaciated and formerly glaciated regions of Europe and North America. Eskers are frequently several kilometres long and, because of their uniform shape, look like railway embankments.[3] ... Most eskers are argued to have formed within ice-walled tunnels by streams that flowed within and under glaciers. They tended to form around the time of the glacial maximum, when the glacier was slow and sluggish. ... Eskers may also form above glaciers by accumulation of sediment in supraglacial channels, in crevasses, in linear zones between stagnant blocks, or in narrow embayments at glacier margins. Eskers form near the terminal zone of glaciers, where the ice is not moving as fast and is relatively thin.[5]
[COMMENT: I think the sand and gravel in eskers comes mainly from the ground surface under glacial ice sheets. Tunnels form within and under glaciers and meltwater flows through them and deposits sand and gravel on the floors of the tunnels. The deposits nearly fill the tunnels near the glacier edges where the meltwater flows away from the ice sheet.]

SCANDINAVIAN ESKERS
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The ... _223450127

IRISH ESKERS
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The ... _265324737
_There seem to be eskers in Scotland too, but I haven't found a map of them.

NORTH AMERICAN ESKERS
_This site has a lot of large-scale maps of North American eskers.
https://dcgeo.files.wordpress.com/2015/ ... ptions.pdf
_This map from there shows where eskers, moraines, freshwater mud and marine mud occur.
https://imgbox.com/ogONrqjM
[NO ANTARCTIC ESKERS]
_The site also states that eskers are not found anywhere else, not even in Antarctica or Greenland, I think.

QUESTIONS
1. ICE SHEETS CONNECTION? Was the North American Ice Sheet connected to the European Ice Sheet? It appears that they were connected before the Pangaea breakup. The Great Flood added most of the sedimentary rock strata to the supercontinent Pangaea; then atmospheric dust etc caused the Ice Sheet to form on North America and NW Europe, while Siberia and Alaska and northern Canada had warm climate for megafauna and plantlife; then the asteroid impacted Pangaea and caused the Americas to move away from Eurasia and Africa; then Younger Dryas impacts on the Ice Sheet melted most of the Ice Sheet, causing a second global flood; etc. Greenland would have been between North America and Europe, so it should also have eskers, maybe under its present Ice Sheet.
2. WHY DID ESKERS FORM ONLY UNDER THE NORTHERN ICE SHEET? Was it because of catastrophic melting and flooding?
3. WHY IS THERE NO MUD IN THE ARCTIC? That's a question the DCGEO website asks. Assuming it's true, that there is no mud there, is it connected to the ancient Saturn configuration?
4. WAS THE COLORADO PLATEAU COVERED BY THE ICE SHEET? I think Creation.com has an article stating that it was covered by the Ice Sheet or by Glaciers.

TUNNEL VALLEYS
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_valley
_A tunnel valley is a U-shaped valley originally cut under the glacial ice near the margin of continental ice sheets such as that now covering Antarctica and formerly covering portions of all continents during past glacial ages.[1] They can be as long as 100 km (62 mi), 4 km (2.5 mi) wide, and 400 m (1,300 ft) deep. Tunnel valleys were formed by subglacial erosion by water and served as subglacial drainage pathways carrying large volumes of meltwater. Their cross-sections often exhibit steep-sided flanks similar to fjord walls. They presently appear as dry valleys, lakes, seabed depressions, and as areas filled with sediment. ... They can be found in areas formerly covered by glacial ice sheets including Africa, Asia, North America, Europe, Australia and offshore in the North Sea, the Atlantic and in waters near Antarctica.
_Evidence suggests that erosion in a tunnel valley is primarily the result of water flow. They erode by meltwater, which it has been argued, episodically drains in repeated jökulhlaups from subglacial lakes and reservoirs; examples of such motion have been observed in Antarctica. Although there is evidence of ice erosion such as linear striations in the bedrock, these are observed only in the widest valleys, and are believed to have played a secondary role.[1]

Tunnel valleys can be formed in one ice age by catastrophic flow, by Michael Oard
https://creation.com/tunnel-valleys
_Eskers, often on top of the tunnel valley fill and parallel to the valley, and drumlins in the vicinity of tunnel valleys sometimes also occur. The eskers sometimes end in an outwash fan at an ice-marginal position. The tunnel valleys sometimes cut through drumlins and moraines, indicating that they formed during deglaciation.
[COMMENT: I think the first sentence means the tunnel valleys were formed before the eskers were. The tunnel valleys are much wider, so they would have needed much more and stronger water flow, but the eskers would have needed the ice sheet directly on the tunnel valley fill with a tunnel in the ice for the esker to form. That's confusing. I need to think about that more.]

TILL
Maybe next time I'll get time to discuss this article.
At least some ‘tillites’ may be impact debris
https://creation.com/some-tillites-may-be-impact-debris

[Lloyd]

142676

GREAT FLOOD TILLITES, NOT USUALLY GLACIAL

Tillites are defined as glacial rock debris, but most are likely actually Great Flood debris and some are likely meteor impact debris. Here are excerpts from some Creationist articles.

__What about ice ages?
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/cabook/chapter16.pdf
_Today, glaciers grind up the rock they travel over, creating deposits of fine and coarse material mixed together. This unsorted material is known as till, or tillite when it becomes bound together to form a rock unit. The grinding action of rocks embedded in the glacier also scores parallel grooves in the bedrock the glacier slides over — these grooves are called striations. When some melting occurs in summer, the glacier releases rock ‘flour’, which is washed into glacial lakes and settles to form fine and coarse alternating layers known as varves. Sometimes a piece of ice will break off the glacier or ice sheet and float into such a glacial lake, dropping embedded boulders as it melts. These ‘dropstones’ fall into the fine sediments (varves) on the lake floor, so that stones are sometimes found in the varves.
Geologists have claimed that these features have been found in ancient rock layers, proving that there had been previous ice ages over geologic time. Many lines of evidence now indicate that the observations have been misinterpreted:6
• The ‘tillites’ of lower rock layers are small in area, commonly thick, and probably all of marine origin, whereas those of modern glaciers are relatively large in area, thin, and continental.
• There are limestones and dolomites frequently associated with these ‘tillites’ — carbonates which form today in warm water, not cold.
• The largest boulders in the ancient ‘tillites’ are much smaller than the larger boulders being deposited by glacial action today.
• Underwater mass flows can produce tillite-like deposits, as well as striated bedrock and striated stones in the ‘tillite’. Such mass flows would be expected during Noah’s Flood.
• Turbidity currents can deposit varve-like laminated sediments very quickly.7
_These sediments are more accurately called rhythmites. A varve is defined as a rhythmite deposited in one year. Lambert and Hsu have presented evidence from a Swiss lake that such varve-like rhythmites form rapidly by catastrophic turbid water underflows.8 At one location, five couplets of these varve-like rhythmites formed during a single year. At Mount St Helens in the USA, a stratified deposit 8 m (25 ft) thick, consisting of many thin varve-like laminae, was formed in less than one day (12 June 1980).9 Flow tank experiments have shown how laminations can form rapidly when two different grain sizes are carried together in flowing water.10 The so-called ‘dropstones’ could not have been dropped into the ancient ‘varvites’11 because such a method of placement would result in tell-tale disturbance of the laminations, which is rarely observed. The evidence suggests they were placed with the enclosing sediments by turbidity currents or other mass flows — again consistent with what would be expected during a global Flood. In other words the ‘varvites’ did not come from cyclical, annual, glacial lake deposition.

Glacial-like striations formed in less than 90 seconds
https://creation.com/glacial-like-stria ... ed-quickly
__A glacial-like striated pavement with other ‘glacial-diagnostic’ features.
_A rock avalanche on Jiweishan Mountain, China, occurred on 5 June 2009, killing more than 70 people. It also destroyed farms and covered up an underground iron mine. Some researchers who investigated the avalanche came to believe that the slide was a grain flow with low dynamic friction, and that the base of the slide was heated to about 800°C, producing high-pressure steam and carbon dioxide. They removed a thin covering of landslide debris on the mountain, providing a rare opportunity to examine the sliding surface. They were surprised to find “a well-preserved, polished and striated pavement … highly reminiscent of a classical striated rock pavement from beneath a glacier”.10 Moreover, the striations and grooves were not always straight, but sometimes sets of striations crossed each other at an angle of up to 30°. This was previously thought to be diagnostic of glaciation, but this avalanche shows it can also be explained by shifting rocks in the bottom of the slide. Moreover, the slide displayed chattermarks and plucking scars on the surface. Chattermarks are thought to be indicative of glacier sliding (figure 1). Because some of the striations had beginnings, they are reminiscent of nailhead striations thought to be produced only by glaciation.
__Example offers more support that ‘ancient ice ages’ are Flood landslides.
_Several creation scientists have provided evidence that diamictite, a non-genetic term for a non-sorted or poorly sorted sedimentary rock with a wide range of particle sizes, and other glacial-diagnostic features can be a result of gigantic submarine debris flows during the Flood.11–14 The debris flows would be much larger than those of today because the Flood rapidly laid down huge volumes of sediments over large areas. An earthquake or some other perturbation (e.g. crater impact or tsunami) could easily start a huge slide that would flow rapidly and mostly come to a halt on a generally level surface, as with the Dwyka ‘tillite’ in South Africa. If such a relatively small slide as the Jiweishan Mountain slide (a true post-Flood landslide) produced friction temperatures up to 800°C with highpressure steam and carbon dioxide, the much larger slides of a global Flood would easily and quickly have slid long distances. Submarine landslides would produce all the so-called indicators of glaciation.

Kelp could have produced abundant dropstones during the Flood
https://creation.com/kelp-dropstones
__Dropstones caused by many mechanisms.
_There are lots of problems with the glacial interpretation of dropstones.1,3 These rocks can be deposited by many mechanisms other than floating ice, including bottom-hugging debris flows or turbidity currents, floating kelp, swimming animals, volcanic eruptions, meteorite impacts,4–6 and from floating tree stumps. Uprooted trees commonly contain soil and rock in the root ball (figure 1). The latter presumably explains boulders sometimes found in coal.7

At least some ‘tillites’ may be impact debris
https://creation.com/some-tillites-may-be-impact-debris
_If the origin of the till-like debris is uncertain it is called a diamicton when it is loose and unconsolidated and a diamictite when it is lithified (transformed into stone).
_[Something] worth considering as we investigate diamicton and diamictite formations in the field is that some may have formed from meteorite or comet impacts.
_Rampino points out that shocked rocks are also rare in known impact debris, and hence shocked rocks are a poor diagnostic criterion for impacts. He earlier claimed that shocked quartz was found in a rock from a late Precambrian tillite from southern Utah....
_Rampino also suggests a new impact-diagnostic feature, rocks showing brittle failure, and points out that these have been found in the Precambrian during ‘non-glacial intervals’. He concludes: “The recognition that a number of diamictites in the geological record interpreted as tillites have a subaqueous debris-flow origin and the fact that some features ascribed to glaciation may not be entirely diagnostic suggests that a reinterpretation of some supposedly glacial tillites as non-glacial debris-flow/debris-fall deposits may be necessary.”18

The Late Ordovician striated pavement in North Africa — not directly caused by glaciation
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j19 ... 3_9-10.pdf
_There are four main pre-Pleistocene ‘ice ages’, starting from the oldest within the uniformitarian geological column: (1) the early Proterozoic, (2) the late Proterozoic, (3) the late Ordovician and (4) the Permo-Carboniferous. Creationists are challenged to provide an alternate mechanism to account for the purported glacial evidences in these rocks, since one would not expect an ice age during a one-year Flood. One also would not expect evidence of a pre-Flood ice age, if it occurred, to have survived the onslaught of the globally catastrophic Flood.
_Three main diagnostic criteria are normally considered, one of which is a striated or grooved bedrock surface below what is called a tillite3. Such striated surfaces are often associated with the Pleistocene or post-Flood Ice Age. However, such surfaces can also form below mass movement as the debris scrapes against the bedrock.4
_The recent analysis of the striations and grooves in north-west Africa suggests that none of the three proposed mechanisms for soft sediment grooves and striations is correct,12 because similar marks are found vertically stacked in waterlain sandstones below the main surface....

[Lloyd]

143562

One more posting for this week.

MAMMOTHS & ICE SHEET WERE MORE RECENT

This is from just a few months ago: Mammoths Survived in Canada Until 5,000 Years Ago
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-hea ... 1.10452714
_The paper by researchers at McMaster University, the University of Alberta, the American Museum of Natural History and the Yukon government is based on a new technique: “capture-enrichment” of DNA from mere spoonfuls of soil. Or, in this case, permafrost – a technology that was developed at McMaster’s.
_The DNA found in the permafrost cores shows that both the mammoth and wild horse were still around in the Yukon 5,000 years ago....
_The samples for testing were taken from cored permafrost sediments extracted from the Klondike region of central Yukon....
_In the 1990s, a local artist named Joe Pachak noticed petroglyphs on a rock face in Upper Sand Island that seem to show a mammoth (and a bison), and won scholarly support from rock art expert Ekkehart Malotki in 2011. Malotki confirmed that the art showed a mammoth and a bison
_the mammoths of the Yukon were not the last ones on Earth. That sad distinction still belongs to the mammoths on the Siberian island of Wrangel, who died out only about 3,700 years ago.
[COMMENT: All of the mammoths likely died out about 4,000 years ago. C14 dating isn't accurate beyond that time because there was almost no C14 before the major cataclysms and the amount increased to present levels over numerous centuries. Several cataclysms apparently occurred between 6 and 4 thousand years ago, with minor ones thereafter. This new method of finding fossil DNA doesn't seem to require fossil bones, fossil skin etc, just soil that contains DNA. The permafrost in northern Eurasia and northern North America is a good place to get samples, because the DNA has been mostly frozen for several millennia and hasn't broken down yet. So it may find that the ice sheet and permafrost didn't start until under 5,000 years ago. And that's when many organisms were killed during cataclysms.]

TUNNEL VALLEYS FROM FLOODS?

I recently posted about Tillites, which are said by the mainstream to be formed from glaciers, but which many Creationists and other catastrophists say were often formed by floods. I think the same may be true of Tunnel Valleys.

1. TUNNEL VALLEYS: SEISMIC IMAGING, GENETIC MODELS ANDANALOGUES FOR HYDROCARBON RESERVOIRS IN NORTH AFRICAAND GROUNDWATER RESERVOIRS IN NORTHERN EUROPE
https://www.academia.edu/2813149/Tunnel ... ern_Europe
Tunnel Valleys are enigmatic, highly elongate depressions carved by highly pressured meltwater beneath the margins of former ice sheets. The valleys can be several km wide, 10-100 km long and several hundreds of metres deep, with irregular rising and falling thalwegs. Their infill sediments range from glaciofluvial gravels and sands, tills and diamicts, to glaciolacustrine/-marine and interglacial clays and possibly deltaic sands. The range of infill of buried tunnel valleys is well documented, particularly by groundwater boreholes onshore (Huuse et al., eds,2003). The variation in their infill is often associated with seismic imaging problems in the North Sea hydrocarbon province. Recently, 3D seismic studies have documented that many valleys contain clinoform ‘backfills’ suggestive of syngenetic valley erosion and infill (Praeg 2003) [syngenetic means relating to or denoting a mineral deposit or formation produced at the same time as the enclosing or surrounding rock]. These observations shed new light on a century old problem regarding the genesis and link between the valleys and their infill. However, this concept may not be widely applicable and testing its wider applicability is therefore a key element of the present project. Tunnel valleys from the Pleistocene glaciations are dominant landscape elements in parts of NW Europe and North America where buried tunnel valleys form important groundwater reservoirs in areas where land use is putting increasing pressure on shallower, less protected aquifers. Tunnel valleys from the Permo-Carboniferous and the end-Ordovician glaciations form prolific but poorly understood oil reservoirs in North Africa and the Middle East (Le Heron et al. 2004).
[COMMENT: Creationists seem to mostly accept the North American and European Ice Sheet glaciations, but not others, except for Antarctica.]

2. Wikipedia says
_Africa. Tunnel valleys associated with the Late Ordovician glaciation have been observed in north African countries, including Libya.[20]
In southern Africa a Permo-Carboniferous tunnel valley system has been identified in northern Cape Province, South Africa.[22]
_Antarctica. The active formation of tunnel valleys is observed in the present period beneath the Antarctic ice.[4][9]
_Asia. During the late Ordovician, eastern Gondwana was covered with ice sheets. As a consequence, Jordan and Saudi Arabia exhibit regionally-extensive filled tunnel valley structures.[3]
_Australia. Open-pit gold mines near Kalgoorlie, Western Australia, expose an extensive network of glacially-eroded valleys filled with tillite and shale cut below the Late Paleozoic Pilbara ice sheet.[23]
_Europe. Tunnel valleys and related glacial impacts have been identified in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Poland, Germany, Northern France, the Netherlands, Belgium, Great Britain, Finland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway.[24] ... They are also to be found under the North Sea.[27]
[COMMENT: I believe Creationists would consider the Tunnel Valleys in other areas beyond northern North America & Europe to be caused by other means instead of glaciation.]

3. Tunnel valley genesis
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.117 ... 9602000101
_Three main theories of tunnel valley formation exist at present.
_The first ascribes the formation of tunnel valleys cut into unconsolidated sediment to the creep of deformable subglacial sediment into a subglacial conduit from the sides and below, followed by removal of this material through the conduit by meltwater flow. Tunnel valleys are thus created by lowering of the sediment surface on either side of the conduit.
_The second theory argues that tunnel valleys form during deglaciation, at or close to the ice margin, by subglacial meltwater erosion and that the valleys are time transgressive.
_The third theory also argues for an origin by subglacial meltwater erosion but claims that the discharges involved took the form of catastrophic channelized floods and that the tunnel valleys within anastomosing networks formed synchronously.
[COMMENT: The third theory seems likely to apply to the northern and Antarctican glaciations. But Tunnel Valleys elsewhere likely require a fourth theory. Since most theories say meltwater was largely responsible for eroding the Tunnel Valleys, it seems reasonable to suppose that Flood waters could possibly do the same thing, carving out valleys in bedrock and filling them in with diamicts, i.e. mixtures of sand, gravel and boulders. This may have been especially frequent when the bedrock was still unhardened after the Great Flood. The only Tunnel Valleys in Asia are said to be in Jordan and Saudi Arabia, which are adjacent to Africa, so they may have formed in the same way as those in Libya, maybe when the Mediterranean Sea was nearly dry, and/or when the Shock Dynamics asteroid impact that broke up former supercontinent Pangaea occurred. South Africa also bordered land that separated from Africa. So far, Creationists don't seem to have discussed Tunnel Valleys in these presumably unglaciated areas. So they don't seem to have any findings on that for me to reference.]

[Lloyd]

144793

SOTT COMET VENUS MODEL

I posted the following article titles and links on my Sci News Blog a while ago. I'll post highlights from them below. I don't expect this SOTT model to be superior to the Saturn Theory, but I think it has quite a bit of data etc to contribute to the Saturn Theory.

1. Origins of the 30,000-year-old Venus of Willendorf solved
https://www.sott.net/article/464979-Ori ... orf-solved
_The Venus of Willendorf is a 4.4-inch Venus figurine, found in 1908 at a Palaeolithic site near Willendorf, a village in Lower Austria.
_researchers applied high-resolution tomography, suggesting that the Venus originates from a region in northern Italy.
_SOTT Comment: There's strong evidence to suggest that 30,000 years ago the climate [was] quite different: [See] The Seven Destructive Earth Passes of Comet Venus.

__The Berekhat Ram "Venus"
_From: Aeon V:3 (Dec 1998) News Flash: The Berekhat Ram "Venus", Tania ta Maria
_Until recently, man's oldest art works were claimed to have originated in Europe 35,000 years ago. It seems that has now changed. Not only have we moved away from Europe, but much farther back than 35,000 years ago. A two-inch tall statuette of one of those voluptuous females, of which the Willendorf Venus is perhaps the best known example, was discovered in the 1980s by Naama Goren-Inbar, of Hebrew University, at Berekhat Ram in the Golan Heights, Israel. Carved from volcanic rock, the statuette has not weathered well, so that quite a few scholars had formerly expressed doubts concerning its fashioning by the hand of man. Microscopic analysis of the object has since been conducted by Alexander Marshack, of Harvard University, touted as a specialist in prehistoric art. His verdict is that the statuette is a genuine man-made object. The figurine, together with some flint tools, was discovered in a basalt strata which had been dated from 800,000 to 233,000 years old. Opting for a period somewhere around 250,000 years B.P ., no other man-made artifact was previously known to be that old. Similar "Venus" figurines from central Europe had been dated as being 25,000 years old. What this means, given that these dates are valid, is that such figures, often thought to symbolize fertility goddesses, remained in vogue for 225,000 years without any change in their appearance. Is this conceivable?
[COMMENT: No, it's not conceivable that such similar Venus figurines were used for hundreds of thousands of years. The figurine is likely from the Saturn configuration, when observers on Earth saw several planets seemingly close together. I'd guess the body was Saturn and the breasts were Mars & Venus. And since the sedimentary rock strata were surely deposited by one or two recent Great Floods, everything of life and man on Earth is found within or above those strata, making them no more than 6,000 years old.]
__The Many Faces Of Venus - The Planet Venus in Ancient Myth and Religion, by Ev Cochrane (Book Review). C&C Review 2002:1
_Cochrane tries to stick as closely as possible to a consideration of the one planet [Venus] under consideration but again it becomes obvious from the beginning that the role of Venus figures cannot easily be divorced from those of both Mars and Saturn....

2. The Seven Destructive Earth Passes of Comet Venus
https://www.sott.net/article/432498-The ... omet-Venus
_Ca. 12,500 BP cometary Venus was inside the solar system and knocked Mars towards Earth.
[LK COMMENT: I disagree. Venus likely was not visible until much later, during the "Creation" event/s.]
_Venus being a planet is attested as far back as Mesopotamia (ca. 4,500 BP), which likely means that the transformation of Venus from comet to a planet occurred between 12,500 BP and 4,500 BP.
[LK: ... Probably ca. 4,500 BP]
__Venus Markers
_There is no known Venusian meteorite found on Earth, which suggests a limited transfer of solid material, if any. This is due to the fact that escape velocity on Venus is high (10.4 km/s vs. 6.5 km/s on Mars) and elevated drag in the dense Venusian atmosphere would prevent anything reaching escape velocity and leaving the planet. Discarding rocks, we will focus on more volatile materials like the gases in Venus' atmosphere and tail that exist in higher concentrations than they do on Earth. Thus, a close encounter with Venus might be identified by a sharp rise in terrestrial samples (pit cores, ice cores...) of those Venus-abundant gases. The graph below shows the concentration of gases in Venus and Earth's atmospheres: ... As you can see, two gases stand out as notably more concentrated on Venus than on Earth. These are carbon dioxide ... and sulfur dioxide.... [Venus has 2,500 times more CO2, 20,000 times more SO2, 100 times more deuterium. Scientists found considerable methane too, but deny it, apparently because it would support Velikovsky's theory.]
_A close encounter between the [Earth & Venus] should have left concentration spikes for those gases in earthly records.
_Besides the gaseous spikes, cometary Venus should have left the typical signature of cometary encounters: increased dust due to crossing the cometary tail, the impact and/or overhead explosions of cometary fragments, and the induced volcanism/seismicity as described in my article titled 'Volcanoes, Earthquakes And The 3,600 Year Comet Cycle'.

Volcanoes, Earthquakes And The 3,600 Year Comet Cycle
https://www.academia.edu/41167422/Volca ... omet_Cycle
_Zechariah Sitchin got a lot of media and popular attention with his book titled the "Twelfth Planet" where, based on his interpretation of Sumerian iconography, he postulated that a planet called Nibiru, the 12th planet of our Solar system, followed a long, elliptical orbit, reaching the inner solar system every 3,600 years. This hypothesis didn't make much sense to me, because, a[n] astronomic[al] body exhibiting a very elongated orbit and crossing our Solar system can’t be a planet. But it might very well match a cometary orbit....
_changes in electric potential difference between the comet and its surrounding space triggers intense current including electric discharges between the comet and its surrounding space, leading to a[n] overheated and glowing cometary body. That's why an astronomical body following a very elliptical orbit around the Sun with a 3,600 year period can not be a planet but has to be a comet. ... the fundamental difference between a comet and planet is not a matter of composition but a matter of electrical activity....
_[In] Sumerian astronomy ... Two features are particularly noteworthy. First, the Sumerians had an excellent knowledge of astronomy in general and comets in particular. Sumerian tablet K 8538 describes with great accuracy the comet that struck Um-Al-Binni ca. 4200 BP. K8538 is the world's first scientific documentation on the approach and terrestrial impact of a large comet on Earth. Second, the Sumerians had an elaborate sexagesimal (base 60) numeral system, which 5 millennia later is still used in the whole world for measuring angles, time and geographic coordinates. Within this numeral system, one of the main units was the Sar (shar, saros) which is equal to 3,600 years.
_Observation confirms that comets with a very long orbital period can follow a stable periodic orbit. This is for example the case of the great comet of 1811 (C/1811 F1) which exhibits an orbital period of approximately 3096 years. ... did a cometary event occur c. 3600 ... years ago?
_[See] GISP2 temperature reconstruction over the past 10,000 years
_Similarly to 14,400 BP, 3,600 BP was marked by a sudden drop in temperature, as shown by the black vertical line in the GISP2 ice core temperature diagram.
_In the diagram below, we can see a spike (140 ppm) in sulfate concentration that is about 10 times larger than the background concentration (15 ppm) of the following centuries. [This] suggests that 3,600 years ago, some catastrophic event occurred. Actually, 1628 BC was the year of the eruption of Thera, later known as Santorini, a volcano located in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea. But, despite its magnitude, it falls short in explaining the major spike in atmospheric dust that occurred during the first half of the 17th century BC. Actually, Thera seems to have been a very small dust contributor.
_If Thera contributed only about 5% of atmospheric dust (sulfate transforming into sulfuric acid in ice cores ...), then where did the remaining 95% [of] dust come from? ... Now we have four major and nearly simultaneous eruptions (Thera, Aniakchak, Vesuvius and [Mt] St Helens) happening ca. 1628 BC, or as Vogel puts it "a coincidence of a number of eruptions", but it still doesn't account for the full acidity spike found in ice cores.... the ca. 1,620 BC SO4 spike is almost four times larger in [the] Antarctica ice core (620 ppm see red arrow) [as] it is in [the] Greenland ice core (180 ppm - see blue arrow)....
_So what could explain the prevalence of atmospheric dust in the Antarctic while eruptions occurred in the Northern Hemisphere? What could explain the 58% of unaccounted for atmospheric dust? What could explain the occurrence of, at least, four virtually simultaneous major eruptions? A cometary event is a prime candidate....
_According to the Bamboo Annals, "In [king Jie's] 10th year, the five planets went out of their courses. In the night, stars fell like rain. The earth shook. Later in the text, the Bamboo Annals state, "The sky was overspread with mists for three days." both [events?] occurred within the c. 1670-1520 BCradiocarbon date range of Thera and the ice-core and tree-ring range of c. 1740-1440 BC.... 1600 BC also marked the end of the Xia dynasty, which had ruled over Eastern Chinafor four centuries.
_7,200 BP (3,600 X 2) ... Similar to 14,400 and 3,600 BP, we discover a sharp temperature drop revealed by ice core analysis, as depicted by the black vertical line in the graph below.... 7,200 BP is also marked by an exceptional spike in mercury (Hg) concentration. The picture below shows the concentration in titanium, bromine and mercury found in EGR2A [ice core], which is a 6 meter long peat core from Switzerland that spans from 12,500 BP to now. It reveals the largest concentration of mercury at 7265 ± 75 BP, as indicated by the red circle.... Mercury is a very rare element on planet Earth ... 3-8 ppb (parts per billion). However, in meteorites, mercury concentration is muchhigher albeit quite variable withconcentrations ranging from ca. 10 ppb to 14,000 ppb. The record 14,000 ppb concentration was found in the Orgueil meteorite, a 14 kg (30 pounds) carbonaceous chondrite meteorite which fell in Southern France in 1864. [It] has a cometary origin, which is also the case for some other carbonaceous chondrite meteorites.... The connection between comets and high mercury concentration is reinforced by the analysis of impact craters on the Moon: The lunar soil in polar ... Cabeus crater was found to contain 2,000,000 ppb Hg.
_7,200 BP is also marked by a sudden increase in atmospheric dust ndicated by the high sulfur (SO2) concentration discovered in the GISP2 (Greenland) ice core ... the 4th largest signals over the past 70,000 years. ... the 53rd century BC exhibits more than 1264 ppm of cumulated sulfate release. ... numerous ... neolithic sites were abandoned in 7,200 BP....
[To be continued, hopefully.]

3. Did Earth 'Steal' Martian Water?
https://www.sott.net/article/420386-Did ... tian-Water#
[To be done.]

4. Of Flash Frozen Mammoths and Cosmic Catastrophes
https://www.sott.net/article/357709-Of- ... tastrophes#
[To be done.]

[NOTE: I plan to write more excerpts from this SOTT model later this week.]

[Lloyd]

145355

SOTT COMET VENUS MODEL (Continued)

Volcanoes, Earthquakes And The 3,600 Year Comet Cycle
https://www.academia.edu/41167422/Volca ... omet_Cycle
https://da.sott.net/article/2273-Vulkan ... ometcyklus
...
_[ICE CORE SO4 SPIKE]
[There is a sulfate spike in the ice core at] 1628 BC.... For a long time, Thera was considered as the sole culprit. Because of the historical interest and time proximity of the event, further research was conducted involving detailed analysis of the dust found in ice cores (isotopes, ratios, spectroscopy) that showed that at least three other volcanoes were involved. Thera was not the sole contributor and, as shown above, there were other contributors besides the four eruptions recently identified.
_[COMETARY VS VOLCANIC EVENTS]
Another example is the onset of the Younger Dryas ca. 12,800 BP. For years it was considered by most scientists as a purely volcanic event. Despite the overwhelming evidence of cometary bombardments, it is still attributed today by some mainstream scientist[s] to volcanic activity exclusively. The confusion between major volcanic eruptions and cometary events is understandable because their "macro" markers are quite similar: a spike in atmospheric aerosols (SO2, SO4, NH4, NO3, ...) [and] a sudden global temperature decrease (because of the above mentioned atmospheric dust)
_[IMPACTS AT YOUNGER DRYAS]
The identification of massive cometary bombardment as the main trigger of the Younger Dryas ca. 12,800 BP is due to the discovery of craters combined with their precise dating and their detailed examination that revealed some specific material (microspherule, fullerene, platinium, titanium, carbon glass, iridium, nanodiamond). Since most of these materials are only found in impact craters and not in volcanoes, scientists could dismiss the volcano-only hypothesis.
_[1808 COMETARY SO4 SPIKE]
So what we can say about the 1808 [ice core] mystery event is that it involved: a spike in atmospheric aerosols (sulphur and magnesium); a subsequent temperature drop; witnesses reporting an atmospheric veil spanning at least 2,600 km [from Colombia to Peru from Dec 1808 to Feb 1809]. These three features are typical of an overhead cometary explosion or an intense meteor shower. Coincidently or not, three comets were observed in 1808. These are namely C/1808 M1,C/1808 F1 and 26P/1808 C1. They all were discovered by French astronomer J.L. Pons from Marseille observatory. ... The latter of these three comets is also known as comet Grigg.... Also, it was discovered that Comet Grigg produces a meteor shower that periodically hits the Earth's atmosphere.
_[COMETARY ELECTRIC EFFECTS]
[Regarding] the above-mentioned magnesium spike found in an Antarctic ice core from ca.1808 AD ..., magnesium is the most abundant element found in some comets [such as Halley's comet]. [And] cometary activity can be a direct cause of volcanic eruptions ... through some kind of electric connection. ... Omerbashich et al. ... discovered a strong correlation between major earthquakes and cometary activity. ... The sun-heliosphere couple acts like a giant capacitor that is discharged by planetary alignments and/or foreign objects entering the solar system, in the same way a bug zapper discharges when a mosquito flies inside it. A prime candidate for triggering such solar discharges are comets, because they are electrically very active (as indicated by their intense glow) and have conductive plasma tails that extend hundreds of millions of kilometers. When a comet triggers a discharge of the solar 'capacitor', the Sun releases Coronal Mass Ejecta (CME) which are massive quantities of protons.... These discharges ... can reach Earth [and maybe trigger earthquakes and volcanic eruptions?].
_[(NO) 3,600 YEAR COMETARY CYCLE]
To summarize, the evidence suggests that a comet (or cometary swarm) interacted with the Earth ca. 14,400 BP, 10,800 BP, 7,200 BP and 3,600 BP. That is to say, on a 3,600 year cycle, meaning that we are due a repeat performance around now. Indeed, the American Meteor Society's records of observed fireballs worldwide over the past 13 years suggest that the 'show' might actually have already begun.... [The graph shows gradual increase to under 20/year from 2006-2010, then a steep increase to over 240/year in 2015, then a gradual increase to over 280/year by 2019. Some of the increase seems likely due to the increase in people who can post or report fireballs online etc. An updated graph at https://fireballs.imo.net/members/imo_fireball_stats/ shows another sharp increase from 287/year to 442 from 2018 to 2021.]
[COMMENT: It may be true that the Sumerians invented a 3,600 year cycle, but there doesn't seem to be any connection with Venus or comets. Their reports about Venus likely were written about 4,200 years ago, not 3,600. It's more likely IMO that the 3,600 years was based on their base 60 number system, which likely derived from 360 or 365 days in a year, which is six 60s. I consider this SOTT model useful for some data etc, but maybe not much more. The SOTT model is based on conventional dating of ice core layers that are assumed to be annual, but Creationists and Catastrophists show good reasons against such uniformitarian assumptions. Hopefully, I'll have more on the SOTT model data soon.]

[Lloyd]

147225

WEB SEARCH ON ANCIENT IMPACTS

An ancient impact on Earth led to a cascade of cratering [Sounds similar to Carolina Bays from ice boulders from ice sheet impacts]
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cra ... pact-earth

Ancient Earth saw a huge spike in meteor impacts - It may be ongoing [Dating clue]
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/scie ... over-space

Ancient asteroid impacts yield evidence for the nature of the early Earth/
https://theconversation.com/ancient-ast ... rth-59675/

Ancient Impact Site on Earth Provides Clues about Mars' Past
https://astrobiology.nasa.gov/news/clue ... mars-past/

Ancient, massive asteroid impact could explain Martian geological mysteries
https://www.colorado.edu/today/2017/07/ ... -mysteries

Cosmic impact destroyed ancient city in the Jordan Valley
https://phys.org/news/2021-09-evidence- ... -city.html

Ancient Meteorite Deposit in Minnesota from Sudbury, Ontario 150 mile diameter Impact Crater
https://cse.umn.edu/mgs/ancient-meteori ... -minnesota

Extraterrestrial Impact Preceded Ancient Global Warming Event
https://science.rpi.edu/earth/news/extr ... ming-event

Giant Ancient 5.5 km Impact Crater Confirmed in Iowa
https://www.universetoday.com/100534/gi ... d-in-iowa/

Ancient asteroid impact in Australia was even bigger (12-18 miles across) than the one that killed the dinosaurs
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/spe ... tists-say/

Polar Relocations - Saturnian Cosmology by Jno Cook [I guess it's about shifting of Earth's axis]
https://youtube.com/watch?v=SnCGRIeSYuA

*Randall Carlson and the Erosion of the Great Sphinx of Giza 59'36" [Asterisk means "important". This shows that the YD megafloods occurred in the Middle East too]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQuL0VYM7c0

*Mid-Cumberland Plateau TN Megaflood Tour [This shows that the YD megafloods occurred in the eastern U.S. too. Randall is guiding a tour the area soon.]
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOZugR71Sug
- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAiuN_prHPg

Civilization Predating Sumerians & Egyptians
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TT4EfwmY5qU

1878 Image of Ancient Egypt’s Mysteriously Destroyed Lost Capital of Tanis Will Shock You
http://youtube.com/watch?v=UvY_o-mLKpo

Melted Granite outside the Second Pyramid?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=etOPM9YhVf0

Meteorite World Map [not craters, just where little meteorites have been found, I think]
http://osm2.carto.com/tables/meteoritessize/embed_map


Curiosity Mars Rover captured this on Martian sand on February 13, 2022
[It doesn't look natural. It also doesn't look like something that might have fallen off of the rover, but that's also possible.]
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jjtFJb6rroU


COMETS & PLAGUES

Gold, Glamour and Destruction
The world wide flu epidemic of 1859 was one of the worst ever, causing half a million deaths (Duffy. J.- Louisiana University press). Could solar flares and the CME's synchrotron radiation stimulate viral growth?
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2011 ... 02gold.htm

Peter Mungo Jupp: The Black Death & Cosmic Chaos
civilization destroying plagues may be governed by electromagnetism such as cosmic rays
http://youtube.com/watch?v=lvOHBjkBpyM
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2021/0 ... nderbolts/

Greenland: Once a Viking Paradise - The virulence and death toll of the 1348 AD plague is totally unmatched by modern examples.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2014/0 ... -paradise/

The 'Little Ice Age' on Melbourne's Port Phillip Bay
periods of high cosmic ray bombardment cause increased positive ion concentration in Earth's atmosphere. Fred Soyka claims this causes bacteria to become highly virulent and invasive. Black Death, Plague, and other relentless infections follow.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2011 ... iceage.htm

Did Cometary Catastrophes Cause the Justinian Plague?
a cometary intruder may have caused an AD catastrophe, leading to the deaths of tens millions of human beings — the so-called Plague of Justinian
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2018/0 ... pace-news/

On the Shoulders of Suppressed Giants Part Two
cometary tails deposited vermin as well as hydrocarbons; religion arose from the fear and worship of comets
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/0 ... art-two-2/


SATURN CONFIGURATION TO RELIGION

Rock Science
The imagery [in rock art] seems steeped in religious symbolism
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/0 ... k-science/

The Origins of Doomsday Anxiety
Early mythic and religious traditions reveal many fears, beliefs, and yearnings shared by all of the early cultures
https://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006 ... omsday.htm

The Spirit of Mythology – Part Two
Why does the mythical axis mundi – a cosmic tree, mountain or pillar – feature so prominently in traditional descriptions of “heaven” or “paradise”, the place where souls go after death or during a mystical vision?
https://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arc ... fmyth2.htm

(Full Links)
http://funday.createaforum.com/mike-mes ... 92/#msg392

[Lloyd]

147633

THE TRANSITORY SATURN SYSTEM (EARLY WANDERING)

I just read much of the section in Cardona's book God Star called THE TRANSITORY SYSTEM. He and the Thunderbolts team were discussing how to account for the fact that ancient myths indicate that Saturn appeared to wander before coming to rest at its position above Earth's north pole. They had considered that the Earth may have initially been orbiting Saturn in phase lock, like the Moon now orbits the Earth, with Earth's north pole facing Saturn, and that when the Saturn system came under the gravitational influence of the Sun, Saturn moved toward the Sun first and Earth was pulled behind into the linear arrangement. But Cardona concluded that such a scenario would have involved too many forces that would have destroyed nearly all life. He concluded instead that Saturn was likely initially at its familiar north polar location and it began to wander for a lengthy time again due to the Sun's increasing pull. That is, Saturn appeared to observers on Earth to wander, but it was really the Earth that merely wobbled or the like. Thornhill had figured that the linear Saturn configuration could only have lasted from 45 to 200 years, while Cardona figured it must have lasted many thousands of years at least back to the Tertiary period (1.8 million years ago and more), which he assumed could not have been misdated drastically. But I've shown in this thread reasons to believe all of the sedimentary strata were likely deposited during one or, more probably, two Great Floods about 4,200 to 5,300 years ago.


ROOFED ROOMS, NOT HANDBAGS

The 'Handbags' of Göbekli Tepe's Pillar 43: Are These Actually the Enclosures?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNrMucrAGjk
[COMMENT: This video shows that the supposed handbag images at Gobekli Tepe were likely showing the rooms there in a side view. This contradicts Graham Hancock's idea that they were symbols of handbags that connect to ancient America's Inca depictions. I had thought that Hancock was right and that it proved that Gobekli Tepe is much younger than conventionally dated, but now I'm back to the drawing board.]


FOSSILS & METALS AGAIN

17 Most Amazing Permafrost Discoveries From Siberia & Alaska
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BA1BKkwcjGg

Toxic metals such as iron, lead and arsenic may have helped cause mass extinctions in the world’s oceans millions of years ago
https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news ... ds-largest

Earth's earliest and deepest purported fossils may be iron-mineralized chemical gardens
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/ ... .2019.2410

Metal Mines
https://www.prehistoriclife.xyz/fossil- ... mines.html
_Dumps of iron, fluorite, lead, zinc, and other mines may contain fossils for the collector, because nearly all common metals are mined from fissures and cavities in limestones.
_The best fossil hunting will be found in mines in the flatlands of the Midwest and South; the metamorphism that occurred during mountain building in the East and West destroyed or grossly distorted fossils in the rocks, though there are some undisturbed areas. The iron mines in Minnesota are in Cretaceous rocks that contain excellent fossils. The iron is believed to be a fossil itself, concentrated from the sea water by innumerable bacteria. The seabed that is now the iron mine was the home of clams and snails which can be found in the dumps, turned to dark-brown hematite or limonite.
[COMMENT: I didn't know that mines occur mainly in limestone, or that many metals derived from fossils. Etc.]

How does a Military Tank Turn to Stone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PyrRtnxScM

Mysterious Fossils Science Still Can't Explain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=816oA9KG60c

[nick c]

How does a Military Tank Turn to Stone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PyrRtnxScM

I don't know if this tank is actually fossilized. The Norwegian army in post WWII Europe took leftover tanks as there were many to be had, and put them in a hole and poured concrete until it covered the tank up to the turret. It would then be used as a fortification canon. That seems to be what was done to the German tank in the linked video.
see:
http://armchairgeneral.com/panzer-tanks ... norway.htm

Back in 1953 the army built a defensive fort at a hill very close to the airport of Bardufoss. The purpose was to have close range heavy weapons with the range to cover all entrances to the airfield and the airfield itself in case of enemy forces trying to take over the place. So these PzIIIs were half buried in defensive positions, using wooden covers for the turret as protection for weather only. All of the interior parts of the panzers are gone including the engine, transmission and almost everything in the hull. A hole was also cut into the bottom for use with a tunnel that would allow ammo to be hoisted straight up into the tank.

At a later stage in the 1960s these guns were rendered obsolete due to their limited range. New fortified positions in concrete were also built next to the PzIIs. Another opening was taken into the left rear side of the panzers so the ammo-tunnel could be used to bring ammo to the new guns. In this process the whole of the PzIIIs were totally buried These tanks were almost forgotten about until a few years ago. The whole fort was disbanded sometime probably in the 1970s or 1980s so therefore it wasn’t a problem getting the permits to release these PzIIIs.

[Lloyd]

148256

Thanks, Nick. I didn't see the video, but the title seemed worth posting.

ZEALANDIA ON PANGAEA

I saw a video about the newly defined continent of Zealandia a few days ago, which I figured may need to be added to the former supercontinent of Pangaea, so I checked to see what Mike Fischer may have said about it on his site. He has info about it at https://www.newgeology.us/presentation13.html . I read it before, but didn't remember till rereading it now. Here's what he said.

Now it's a "continent"! Geologists have decided that the outlined area in the picture below is a continent; they call it Zealandia. [It extends from near NE Australia to a little beyond New Zealand - LK.] There is enough thinned and stretched continental-type crustal rock to distinguish it from oceanic crust. To qualify as a continent, the crust has to 1) be elevated above oceanic crust; 2) consist of siliceous continental rocks such as the Paleozoic and Mesozoic greywacke, schist, and granite found throughout Zealandia; 3) cover an area greater than 1 million square kilometers, as the 4.9 million square kilometers of Zealandia does; 4) show continental crustal structure: extended continental crust averages 30 km thick, compared to the 7 km thickness of oceanic crust. Zealandia's crust is in between, ranging from 10 to 30 km thick throughout except for the South Island of New Zealand which is over 40 km thick, typical for mountainous continental crust. Pressure (P) wave velocity, measured with seismic tomography, for continental crust is 6.5 km/sec, compared to 7.5 km/sec for the lower portion of oceanic crust. Again, Zealandia's P wave velocity is in between, being generally less than 7 km/sec.

After that he shows an illustration of some flightless birds, 2 in Africa, 2 in Australia and 2 in New Zealand. Biologists expected the ones in each location to be most closely related, but mitochondrial genome analysis indicated that the kiwi of New Zealand is most closely related to the elephant bird of Africa and is distantly related to the other New Zealand bird, and the elephant bird of Africa is also distantly related to the ostrich of Africa. Mike says this is understandable, because New Zealand and Australia were initially adjacent to E Africa before Pangaea broke up. But Mike's model shows New Zealand starting out adjacent to what is now NE Australia, while south central Australia was initially adjacent to E Africa. So that puts the kiwi and elephant bird at least a thousand miles apart on Pangaea. So that doesn't seem persuasive. But after that he shows a possibly more persuasive illustration, in which crops on Madagascar, an island near E Africa, are common to Asia, not to Africa, and many of the people of Madagascar are Asians from Indonesia and Oceania who initially settled in Madagascar up to 2,000 years ago. Since the breakup of Pangaea likely occurred about 4,300 years ago, Mike seems to think maybe the Asians of Madagascar actually were there when Pangaea broke up.
_He says there are 14 large tectonic plates around the globe and 38 small plates, most of which are in the west Pacific ocean near Australia and SE Asia. He thinks these small plates formed when the Australian plate collided with Asia and much of it broke up. New Zealand was one of those small plates. Mike seems to think the rest of Zealandia formed from ocean crust and only New Zealand was already land.

SATURN TIDAL FORCES POSSIBLY RAISED PANGAEA

_Sea levels changed over the centuries, due to uplifts and sinking of some lands and due also to glaciation and possibly even due to some water coming from Mars or the polar column. So sea levels would have determined how large a supercontinent Pangaea was. Cardona thought Saturn was above Earth's north pole in very ancient times, but I'm wondering if our north pole may have been in the center of Pangaea and caused it to form into a supercontinent by uplifting oceanic crust and causing it to form into continental crust, with oceanic basalt changing into continental granite. Mike Fischer and Charles Chandler figured that part of the Moon hit the Earth and became the supercontinent, but I don't know if the Moon is granite. The lunar maria are said to be basalt. Here's a web search on lunar granite https://www.google.com/search?q=lunar+g ... nt=gws-wiz and one of the sites says it's rare. Mike and/or Charles said lunar rocks are very similar to Earth rocks, so that suggests that they were once connected. But I hope to pursue this issue further, since it seems plausible that Saturn raised up Pangaea from ocean crust and the Great Pyramid may have been at or close to the former north pole, directly under Saturn (& Venus & Mars). If it was built after the breakup, it may still have been built on the site of the former north pole. Being directly below warm Saturn, it would not have been cold like the present north pole.


PANGAEA AREA & CIVILIZATION

_The former supercontinent, Pangaea, that broke up about 4,300 years ago was shallow with no mountains and with some large shallow seas. A previous post on Creationist findings about the Great Flood and sedimentary rock formation included a link to an map of Pangaea. The Americas were a few hundred miles wider than now before the breakup, but were narrowed that much due to the orogeny, i.e. mountain formation. N. India was also a few hundred miles wider before it slid under the Eurasian plate at the breakup and raised the Himalaya Mountains. Australia, New Zealand, Antarctica and Europe were similarly shortened by mountain building. If Mike is wrong that Zealandia was not a continent, then it would also have added to the size of Pangaea. The Americas have an area of 9.5 + 6.9 M sq. mi. = 16.4 M sq. mi. = 42.5 M sq. km. The mid-Atlantic ridge is 10,000 miles long = 26,000 km. The mountain ranges on the east and west coasts of the Americas are about that long and at least 300 km wide. 300 x 26,000 =~ 8 M sq. km. Add the areas of the other mountain ranges in the eastern hemisphere, maybe 2 to 3 M sq. km. and the total is Pangaea had 10 M sq. km. more area than the present land masses. The present land area is 149 M sq. km. So Pangaea's area was likely 159 M sq. km. or 164 M sq. km. if Zealandia is added.
_This shows the Giza pyramid in Egypt as in the center of the present land masses.
https://www.google.com/search?q=giza+py ... 97&dpr=1.1
_Perhaps it was also the center of Pangaea before it broke up. The Great Pyramid was probably built right after the breakup. Civilization probably remained partly intact after the breakup. Some other Egyptian and Sumerian structures were likely built before the breakup. Floods accompanied the breakup, but the Great Flood deposited most of the sedimentary rock strata a few centuries earlier. My guess is that the shocks from the asteroid impact on Pangaea would have severely damaged and reoriented structures built before the breakup. I think some of Tiahuanaco was likely built before the breakup, and the Andes mountains uplift that raised the city 12,000 feet likely ruined many of the structures. Any structures that are still perfectly horizontal seem likely to have been built after the breakup, since orogenesis would not likely have maintained level conditions.

[Lloyd]

148650

FORMATION OF PANGAEA

I suggested above that the continental granite of Pangaea may have formed due to the nearness of Mars, Venus and Saturn over the center of the supercontinent, which would have been the location of the north pole (in Egypt). So I'm looking into the relationships between basalt and granite for clues about how the granite congregated on one side of the Earth. I'm reading these sites first.

https://lisbdnet.com/what-does-basalt-turn-into
http://www.differencebetween.net/scienc ... d-granite/
https://www.e3s-conferences.org/article ... _02024.pdf

But other processes may have been involved or dominant. Impacts, electrical forces etc may have caused the granite to form in that one location, Pangaea. It's not clear if tidal forces would have been sufficient.

[Lloyd]

151005

CAROLINA BAYS IN EUROPE TOO BEFORE PANGAEA BREAKUP

Michael Oard, a Creationist geologist, has suggested that most geological basins around the world were likely formed by impact craters during the time of the Great Flood.

This video title
Carolina Bays and The Michigan Basin
at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS79c8EuFL8&t=196s
reminded me of geologic cross sections of the Michigan basin that I first saw a few years ago, that I thought was likely formed by an impact.

Dwardu Cardona mentioned craters in the North Sea by Norway in his writings. I've been considering the possibility lately that those craters were formed like the Carolina Bays during the same impact event. It would likely mean that they formed before the Pangaea supercontinent broke up from an asteroid collision. That was before the Atlantic Ocean formed when the Americas broke away from Africa and Eurasia. So the continental shelf off of Norway would have been very close to the east coast of North America where the Carolina Bays are, especially near the New York area, I think. Antonio Zamora recently noted that there are Carolina Bays just south of New York, so the Norway craters could be an extension of the Carolina Bays.

This article
Researchers Reveal Origin of Giant Craters in the Barents Sea
https://webtopnews.com/researchers-reve ... 4228-2017/
shows an image of some of the craters on the sea floor by Norway. Geologists tend to think they formed by underground methane exploding, but that seems unrealistic offhand. A crater formed in Siberia recently, possibly from an methane explosion there, so it may be possible. But the article says the Norway craters date to 12,000 years ago, about the time of the Younger Dryas event. The craters in the image don't greatly resemble the myriads of overlapping elliptical Carolina Bays on the U.S. east coast, but the Norway craters are underwater and were likely affected somewhat by flooding when the Atlantic Ocean basin filled from surrounding ocean waters, or possibly water from Mars or the polar column. This would also mean that the ice sheet on North America and Europe didn't have to cover the Atlantic Ocean at all, since it wasn't there yet.

My thinking, as you may recall, is that there were two Great Floods. The Flood during the Younger Dryas impacts was apparently partly from a rapidly melting ice sheet due to impacts, and from tidal waves due to the continents moving rapidly apart through the oceans and possibly extra water coming down from Mars or the polar column. The first Flood was caused probably by a large body elliptically orbiting Earth briefly raising tidal waves when Pangaea was all lowland with no mountains, so tsunamis could more easily have flooded all of the land. Along with the tsunamis there were impacts during the first Flood too, probably 500 or more years before the YD event. Several impact basins likely formed at that time, possibly including Hudson Bay in Canada.

So far there doesn't seem to be definite remnants of civilization from before the first Flood, because most of the sedimentary rock strata were deposited on the supercontinent, which likely destroyed and buried everything. So Egypt, Gobekli Tepe, Sumeria, Tiahuanaco etc likely were built after the first Flood and before the second. The second one was less destructive.

[Lloyd]

153374

I just started a Facebook group on Catastrophism at https://www.facebook.com/groups/3125304601057811

I figure there are surely lots of folks out there who don't read this forum but who are interested in Catastrophism, so I hope to find them. They'll be welcome to check out this site and you all are welcome to share the link above with others.

I guess there will be some advantages to having a group on Facebook. It looks like people there are used to posting images and videos for one thing, or two.

You all are welcome to check out my description there to see if it sounds okay or if it could use some changes. I can only use 3,000 characters for the description, so I can't say everything I'd like to there.

[Lloyd]

153694

MY EARTH HISTORY CATACLYSMS TIMELINE & QUESTIONS

I named my Facebook group Catastrophism, Creationism, Velikovsky, Saturn Theory at https://www.facebook.com/groups/3125304601057811
Here's the description.
... I don't believe the Bible is infallible. But Creationists are otherwise good scientists. Velikovsky made some sound findings, but Saturn theorists improved on them, IMO.
Here are highlights of my present best guesses about Earth History.
1. Earth formed in the Saturn or Jupiter system (Jupiter may have been in front of Saturn and not visible from Earth) outside the solar system. Saturn was a small red dwarf star that flared as a nova periodically.
2. The supercontinent, Pangaea, formed from an asteroid collision or tidal pull from Saturn.
3. The Moon or a large asteroid on an elliptical orbit around Earth caused tsunamis at each perigee (close approach). Pangaea was lowland with no mountains, so the tsunamis flooded the entire supercontinent. The Flood deposited most of the sediments that formed Earth's sedimentary rock strata. A Saturn nova possibly produced the iridium, nanodiamonds etc found at the K/T boundary of the time of the dinosaur extinction. Many asteroid or meteor impacts occurred at the time of the Flood.
4. The ice sheet formed on northwestern Pangaea (now Canada and northwestern Europe), due to volcanic and impact dust, but the north pole and Siberia were warmed by Saturn over the north pole, which may have been in Egypt at that time, or maybe not.
5. Another Saturn nova caused the Younger Dryas impacts and more iridium and nanodiamonds etc. A large asteroid struck Pangaea on the central eastern side of Africa and broke it up into continents, which slid rapidly over the Moho layer to their present locations. The impact caused all of the mountain chains to form. Flooding again occurred which deposited more sedimentary strata.
6. Earth and the Saturn/Jupiter system were at the asteroid belt at that time. Saturn was destabilized and moved away back to its present orbit. Jupiter was then seen in its place. Myths spoke of Jupiter deposing Saturn. Earth continued to be warmed by Jupiter as it moved to its present orbit and the other planets moved to theirs.
7. Earth continued to encounter large objects in the Taurid meteor stream over the following centuries, which caused occasional cataclysmic impacts on a smaller scale. Halloween became a tradition to commemorate those who died when Earth crossed the meteor stream.
So there were two Great Floods. Little if any remains of human society exists from before the first Great Flood, because it deposited rock strata over it or washed it away. But Egypt, Sumeria, Tiahuanaco etc seem to have been built shortly after the first Flood. The second Flood was apparently less severe.
See my forum threads, Evidence of Ancient Global Cataclysm, at https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 10&t=16025
and Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism, at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 6665#p6665

Here's my second post on the Facebook group.
#catastrophism
3 QUESTIONS for New Members.
I just created this group yesterday. Then I invited several members of other groups to join and Katrina is the first to accept the invitation (Thank you). Here are my first questions.
1. Do you think it's likely or unlikely that there was a Great Flood less than 7,000 years ago which caused the extinction of most dinosaurs?
2. Also, do you think it's likely or unlikely that the ice age occurred only after the Great Flood?
3. And do you think it's likely or unlikely that the Younger Dryas impacts occurred less than 5,000 years ago which caused the extinction of most large mammals, including mammoths?

VIDEO CHANNEL PLAN

The Thunderbolts Project on Youtube is said to have 197K subscribers. But the videos only get about 20k views usually. Andy Hall got 70k & 56k views there some months ago. The number of subscribers doesn't mean a lot. My Thunderbolts.info forum thread gets about 2k views a week. If I had a video channel, I think my videos could get as many views as Thunderbolts videos. And I hope to start a channel within a few months from now.