Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Rick]

Further info regarding a prolate tide sea level capable of flooding Lake Titicaca.
There would be a very thin strip of the Andes and the Himalayas area above water. Nothing else!

IF the Andes were at their present elevation.

[JP Michael]

The question is: How big a bulge with how much water to reach the elevation of Titicaca. The angle of the remanent shoreline might be useable to make an estimate.

What if, for the sake of hypothesis, the planet Mars came between the Earth and the Moon on 20th March, 701 BCE? [1] What kind of bulge would that cause and would it be high enough to flood the Andes?

[1] D.W. Patten and S.R. Windsor, Earth-Mars Wars (Seattle: Pacific Meridian, 2003), ch. 10.

[moses]

Creationism
But not as a religious discussion.
Velikovsky compared with Creationism. Well they both have about 6,000 year timescales. So if a Creationist does a lot of study into short time periods compared with the standard timings, then the conclusions can also be used by Velikovskians.

So we need to look at 6,000 years ago so we look at Sumeria. There is the flood story there that looks like Noah's flood is the same story. So we look before the flood story in Sumeria. Weird stories are found that suggest Velikovskian type things were happening in the sky. Creation could have started 6,000 years ago at a great junction in human history.

If there was only one flood then the Precambrian was 6,000 years ago. That is too large a constraint. A longer time is easier. Bible interpretation is most complex.

Cheers,
Mo

[nick c]

Velikovsky compared with Creationism. Well they both have about 6,000 year timescales.

For clarification, Velikovsky was not a creationist. It can be inferred from his writing that he theorized that most of the features of the Earth's surface are of geologically recent origin, but that is not indicative of a young Earth. No doubt the Earth is very old.
With regard to the age of the Universe Velikovsky did not acknowledge that we presently have enough information to know its age, or even if there ever was a "creation." This is basically the Electric Universe position.

from Pensee: IVR I, (May 1972) P.21, "When Was The Lunar Surface Last Molten?"

Concluding, I wish to raise a fundamental question. When we measure the age of the universe, why do we assume that at creation the heavy elements like uranium predominated and not the simplest ones, hydrogen and helium?
It is philosophically simpler to assume that all started - if there ever was a start - with the most elementary elements.

Underline added.

[Lloyd]

20750

TIAHUANACO

I spent quite a bit of time analyzing info on Tiahuanaco, including what I posted recently, to see what may make the most sense.

[UNDERWATER CITY IN LAKE TITICACA]
_Legends said there are stone structures in Lake Titicaca
_In November 1980 Hugo Boero Rojo announced archaeological ruins were found in Lake Titicaca about 15 to 20 meters deep near Puerto Acosta
_The ruins included temples built of huge blocks of stone, stone roads, and flights of steps
_The ruins were of probable Tiahuanaco origin
_They must have been built before the lake formed
_The lake is now 281 meters deep

1. [The submerged city must have existed before the lake formed or before it inundated the city. If the city was built on the lake shore, the lake must have previously been no more than 265 meters deep.]

[TIAHUANACO & LAKE TITICACA]
_Tiahuanaco is at altitude 13,300 feet, 800 feet above Lake Titicaca
_Tiahuanaco has quays indicating a flourishing port at the former edge of the lake
_The water has receded almost 12 miles from Tiahuanaco and has dropped about 800 feet
_The lake is in a basin and is shrinking, due mainly to evaporation, with no outlets to the ocean
_The lake contains salt water and oceanic organisms

2. [The lake must have grown 800 feet deeper when Tiahuanaco was built on its shore.]

[TIAHUANACO FLOOD]
_Tiahuanaco is 400 acres of archaeological remains that were found buried 6 feet deep
_Peruvian legends tell of a world-wide flood in the distant past
_[J Gray] After the disaster, the populace lay buried in gullies that had become mass graves, covered by silt

[TIAHUANACO SUN GATE]
[See: The Calendar of Tiahuanaco: A Disquisition on the Time Measuring System of the Oldest Civilization in the World
Hans Schindler Bellamy, Peter Allan; Faber & Faber, 1956 - Bolivia - 440 pages]
https://www.worldcat.org/title/calendar ... 1008398959
_Professor Bellamy found that the Sun Gate is an intricate "calendar" depository of astronomical, mathematical, and scientific data
_The "solar year" of the calendar had only 290 days, divided into 12 months of 24 days each [[= 288]], plus 2 intercalary days
_The Moon was an independent exterior planet
_Tehre was then Earth's satellite, just 5 Earth radii away, orbiting Earth more than once a day
_It revolved from west to east and eclipsed the Sun 37 times per 24-day month
_Earth's axial tilt was about 16.5 degrees, instead of 23.5
_Tiahuanaco's latitude was 10 degrees, now 16.27
_[J Gray] The Subterranean Temple, the Kalasasaya and the Akapana at Tiahuanaco are precisely oriented to the cardinal directions of the present day
_Thus Tiahuanaco was built after the Great Flood
_The depictions among the ruins of Tiahuanaco of numerous now extinct animals are readily explainable

[HORBIGER THEORY]
_Tehre's tidal force drew the oceans into a belt or bulge around the equator, drowning the equatorial region but leaving the polar lands high and dry
_Tehre broke into fragments and impacted the Earth
_The oceans then were released from its tidal pull and flowed back toward the poles, exposing tropical lands and submerging polar regions

[TIAHUANACO AGRICULTURE]
_Agricultural terracing goes to the very tops of the steep peaks, which appear to have the oldest terraces
_Down the mountains at lower levels are more terraces of more recent origin

3. [A large flood must have inundated Tiahuanaco and left the deep silt covering it. Tiahuanaco farmers apparently farmed the upper terraces, and later people farmed farther down after water levels went down.]

[SUMMARY]
After the Great Flood:
1. A small moon orbiting Earth closely, raised equatorial ocean levels about 12,000 feet and a megalithic city was built on the shore of a smaller Lake Titicaca;
2. The lake grew much larger and Tiahuanaco was built on its shore;
3. Another flood occurred flooding Tiahuanaco suddenly, drowning the residents

[Q&A]
_Regarding #1, if a large enough body orbited Earth closely enough and fast enough the tides could have been high enough to raise the equatorial ocean levels. The tides start to go down when the body reaches the other side of the Earth, but a fast orbiting body would soon be back to raise them up again, so the low tides may not have time to go very low.
_Also, if Earth had only 290 days per year its spin rate would have been slower, unless the orbit was initially closer to the Sun. A faster spin rate would be needed to help raise equatorial ocean levels. It would help to see Bellamy's book to see if his interpretation of the Sun Gate is likely correct, to ascertain the likelihood that a small moon orbited Earth closely.
_Regarding #2, what caused Lake Titicaca to expand after the Great Flood after a megalithic city was built on its shore?
Perhaps heavy rains caused it.
_Regarding #3, what caused the flood of Tiahuanaco?
Perhaps the small moon began to orbit too closely, causing a tidal wave, before impacting the Earth.
The Saturn flare could have caused the decaying orbit. As the ocean levels went down polar regions would have flooded, but not equatorial regions, other than by an initial tidal wave.

REFERENCES
_TIAHUANACO
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =285#p2941
_TIAHUANACO AND THE DELUGE, By Helmut Zettl
https://www.crystalinks.com/tiahuanaco2.html

[Lloyd]

20982

SATURN MYTH

I want to look into ancient myths to see if we can get clues from them about ancient catastrophist chronology. I've said lately that the age of myths appears to have occurred during the Golden Age, which I think lasted only a few centuries, from right after the Great Flood ca. 4,500 years ago and the Younger Dryas event ca. 4,250 years ago. For now I'll jump into an interesting random location within the Golden Age.

In one of my files (DT Aeon3.3) I have these notes:
1. Venus stole Mars' atmosphere & oceans
2. The ancients pictured Jupiter with bands
3. Here is why we know Jupiter was probably part of the Saturn configuration
The following Aeon magazine article excerpts have some of the details about note #1. Maybe I'll show details on notes 2 and 3 later.

From Myth to a Physical Model [Aeon Journal]
From: Aeon III:3 (Oct 1993)
_Saturn was not alone in the sky, but part of a gathering of planets moving in unison to constitute a nearly overwhelming celestial presence. The participating planets in the proposed configuration are: Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars and Earth. Each planet receives its assigned place in the assembly for very specific reasons, and all of the threads of evidence supporting this lineup are interconnected: change the sequence of planets and the argument as a whole unravels. But allow the planets to fulfill their mythical roles, and neither the planets nor the myths will disappoint us.
Venus stole Mars' atmosphere & oceans; ancients pictured Jupiter with bands; why Jupiter was part of the Saturn configuration
_The thesis holds that in the earliest-remembered phase of the configuration, the participants were held in alignment, so that from a terrestrial vantage point, Saturn occluded the view of Jupiter, Venus appeared in the center of Saturn, and Mars appeared inside the orb of Venus. Additionally, the Earth itself was aligned axially to the other planets, so that the giant configuration appeared fixed in the polar sky.
_The colors associated with the participating planets in this early stage are -- Saturn: yellow, gold, i.e., as god of the Golden Age; Venus: white, silver, gray, later turning to bright turquoise; Mars: rusty red and dark. The two images presented below represent the view of the celestial configuration from Earth under two closely related conditions, without any attempt to accommodate the light from the Sun (a critical component). In the first, the dark orb of Mars appears in the center of a spherical Venus, which in turn rests visually in the center of Saturn; in the other image Venus' "atmosphere" has acquired an ovoid shape. ***In the second part of this series, I will give the reasons for believing that this evolving form of Venus was due to Venus pulling atmosphere from Mars, this gas then spiraling around Venus. What happens to this gas-or dust-cloud is fundamental to the mythical history of the configuration.

[Lloyd]

21070

MYTHIC CLUES TO CATASTROPHIST CHRONOLOGY

_In my notes on Talbott's article, From Myth to a Physical Model in Aeon magazine III:3 (Oct 1993), I said Venus stole Mars' atmosphere & oceans, but I don't see that Talbott actually mentioned oceans, so I guess I was just thinking that, if it was close enough to take away most of Mars' atmosphere, maybe the waters of Mars were also taken. He said an ancient image shows Venus with an oval shape, which he suspected was due to Venus drawing from Mars most of its atmosphere. He said the cloud of gas and dust from Mars is important to the evolution of the Saturn system. I suspect that Mars' loss of atmosphere occurred near the time of the Younger Dryas event, shortly before or after Saturn flared up for the last time.
_My notes on the article also say the ancients showed Jupiter with bands. That means Jupiter was likely close enough for the ancients to see its bands. And that means Jupiter must have been hiding behind Saturn until Saturn left the Saturn system. If Jupiter was part of it, it might someday have to be renamed the Jupiter system, or the Jupiter-Saturn system. I can't readily find an ancient image of Jupiter with bands, but this one shows the swirling forms visible in Jupiter's bands: https://ancientreasures.com/products/an ... home-decor
Maybe there's a good image here: https://www.google.com/search?q=ancient ... 7&biw=1366
_In the section, "The Surprising Coherence of Myth", Talbott said in his early encounters with ancient myths "the mass of random details didn't even look interesting", but gradually he "could see distinctive patterns that simply couldn't be explained away" and the more confident he became that something incredible happened. He then provided "some general observations on the character of world mythology, noting a few of the 'anomalous' facts one must confront in seeking an explanation of myth as a whole." I list them here.
1. No recurring mythical theme is explained by the present celestial order.
2. There is no evidence that early man was a fabricator in the sense commonly assumed.
3. Recurring mythical themes are almost certainly prehistoric.
4. All myths are associated with "the age of the gods."
5. The gods are no longer present.
6. Through storytelling over time, the gods are brought down to earth.
7. The first civilizations arose from attempts to celebrate or recapture the age of the gods. "In the upward movement of early civilizations, one does not discover the introduction of new prototypes or a new vision, only more ambitious, larger-scale, and more fully elaborated expressions of the original prototype."
_He then listed some "clearly universal mythical themes", but "only a few of hundreds": i.e. Age of the gods; Golden Age; Creator-King; Heaven; One-eyed God; Cosmic Temple, Cosmic City; World Mountain; Superior sun, central sun [i.e. Saturn]; Goddess [Venus]; Warrior Hero [Mars]; Consort of Queens and Princesses [Mars]; Sword-God [Mars]; Four rivers = four streams of light, or four winds = Four pillars; Dying or Displaced God [Saturn]; World Catastrophe; Ill-Omened Comet [Venus]; Raging or Lamenting Goddess [Venus]; Serpent-Dragon [Venus]; Star of the Heart-Soul [Venus]. He said not one of these themes "explains itself or answers to any known or observable experience, though each theme seems to have established itself on every continent. ... How has it happened that, at the level of universal myth, all references point to unrecognized experiences?" In the section, "Confusion through Localization", he suggested that since the sky had changed, later generations didn't know what the gods etc referred to, so they assumed they referred to things in their own new environment, or to invisible entities.

My plan now is to review Talbott's and Cardona's [and others'] writings to learn more about how myths evolved. I have a general idea, but not coherent. Saturn was first seen alone, then Venus and later Mars became visible, either after the Great Flood or after the Creation/Re-creation event hinted at in the opening of Genesis. Then the Golden Age occurred, followed by Venus and Mars becoming unstable, then Saturn departed, leaving Jupiter in its place, then the system ended at the Younger Dryas event. Here are Talbott's and Cardona's writings in Thoth, which is only a small part of their material. I have others from Aeon, Kronos etc. Those listed below are online, so everyone here can read from them directly.

THOTH BACK ISSUES: TALBOTT & CARDONA
https://www.saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/
TALBOTT:
THOTH 1997 01 SATURN THEORY OVERVIEW.............................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 02 SATURN THEORY OVERVIEW (2)....................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 03 SATURN THEORY, OVERVIEW (3).....................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 04 SATURN THEORY, OVERVIEW 4................................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 05 THE MYTH OF THE GOLDEN AGE....................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 06 THE MYTH OF THE GOLDEN AGE (PART 2)..................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 07 THE MYTH OF THE UNIVERSAL MONARCH................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 08 THE MYTH OF THE UNIVERSAL MONARCH (3)............David Talbott
THOTH 1997 09 THE MYTH OF THE UNIVERSAL MONARCH (3)............David Talbott
THOTH 1997 10 SATURN: THE ANCIENT SUN GOD.........................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 11 THE MYTH OF THE CENTRAL SUN (1)................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 12 THE MYTH OF THE CENTRAL SUN (2).....................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 13 THE MYTH OF THE CENTRAL SUN (3)....................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 14 THE MYTH OF THE CENTRAL SUN (4).................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 15 VELIKOVSKY AND PLANETARY CATASTROPHE..........David Talbott
THOTH 1997 17 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS.......................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 18 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS..................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 19 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS(3)....................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 20 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS(4)...........................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 21 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS(5)...........................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 22 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS(6)...........................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 23 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS(7)...........................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 24 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (8)..........................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 25 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (9)..........................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 26 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (10)...................David Talbott
THOTH 1997 27 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (11)...................David Talbott
THOTH 1998 01 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (12)...................David Talbott
THOTH V2-02 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (13)...................David Talbott
THOTH V2-03 VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (14)..........David Talbott
THOTH V2-04 A Hearty Welcome to Amy. . . . . . . . . . . . . .David Talbott
THOTH V2-06 ON THE RELIABILITY OF HUMAN WITNESSES. . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-07 THE LOGIC OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE . . . . . . . . . David Talbott
THOTH V2-08 A BRIEF ORIENTATION. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-09 ON THE USE OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE. . . . . . . .David Talbott
THOTH V2-10 THE GOLDEN AGE. . . . . . . . . . Dave Talbott and Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V2-12 GROUNDRULES FOR RECONSTRUCTING ANCIENT EVENTS (1). David Talbott
THOTH V2-13 RESPONSE TO A CRITIC . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-14 HEROES OF THE ILIAD. . . . . . . . . . . . . David Talbott
THOTH V2-15 THE TWO FACES OF "PLAUSABILITY" . . . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-16 THE COMET VENUS AND THE COMPARATIVE METHOD . .Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-17 ON STABLE AND UNSTABLE WORLDS. . . . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-18 THE WARRING GODDESS ATHENA . . . . . . . . . .Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-19 VISUALIZING COLLINEAR SYSTEMS . . . . . . . .Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-20 THE "TERRIFYING GLORY" OF VENUS. . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 01 MERCURY IN MYTHOLOGY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 02 SACRIFICE AND AMNESIA . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 09 SATURNIAN STUDIES . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott and Kronians
THOTH 1999 10 SATURN AND VENUS . . . . . . .Ted Bond, Ev Cochrane, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 11 COSMIC SYMBOLS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . By Dave Talbott
............. RITUAL BALL GAMES . . . Dave Davis, Dwardu Cardona, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 12 BY JOVE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
............. ASTROBIOLOGY . . . . . Ev Cochrane, Dwardu Cardona, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 13 STAR WORDS . . . . . . . . . . . . . .by Ted Bond, Roger Wescott, Ev Cochrane, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 14 THE MYTHIC ROOTS OF LANGUAGE . . . . . . . . . .by Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 15 MYTHIC ROOTS OF LANGUAGE part II . . . . . . . . .by Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 16 MYTHIC ROOTS OF LANGUAGE part III . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-03 CONJUNCTION THEMES . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-04 THE NATURAL REFERENCES OF MYTH . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-05 WORLD MOUNTAIN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-06 PATTERNS OF HUMAN MEMORY. . . . . by Michel Tavir and Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-07 MEMORIES AND SYMBOLS OF PLANETARY UPHEAVAL . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-08 RECONSTRUCTING THE SATURN MODEL . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-09 THUNDERBOLTS OF THE GODS: an intro . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-10 LABYRINTH AND FORTRESS OF THE GODS . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-11 LABYRYNTHS . . . . . . . . . Kronia discussion with Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-12 MALE GODS . . . . . . . . .by Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs
THOTH V4-13 A UNIFIED THEORY . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-14 SATURN'S REVOLVING CRESCENT . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
........... LOCALIZATION OF THE WARRIOR-HERO. . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-15 ONE STORY TOLD ROUND THE WORLD. . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
........... HUMAN NATURE AND SATURNIAN RITUAL . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-16 EGYPTIAN WHITE CROWN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . by Dave Talbott
........... RENS' OUTLINE OF MYTHICAL THEMES . . . . . . . by Rens van der Sluijs, Ev Cochrane, Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-01 YEAR TWO THOUSAND AND ONE. . . . . . . . . . . . .by Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-04 THE THUNDERBOLT IN MYTH AND SYMBOL. . . . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-05 OF THUNDERGODS AND CELESTIAL MARVELS . . . . . . . . Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-06 POLAR CONFIGURATION AND COSMIC THUNDERBOLT. . . . . .Dave Talbott
THOTH V6-07 SERPENTS OF CREATION . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dave Talbott

CARDONA:
THOTH V2-07 MORE THAN ONE TYPHON . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V2-10 THE GOLDEN AGE. . . . . . . . . . Dave Talbott and Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V2-11 VENUS AS THE DOVE . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Robert Lugibihl, Comments by Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V2-19 TIDBITS ------------------------ Notes and comments by Dave Talbott, Dwardu Cardona, and Wal Thornhill
THOTH 1999 06 THE BIG BANG AS A RELIGIOUS WORK . . . . . . . .by Dwardu Cardona
THOTH 1999 08 SATURN CONFIGURATION DISCUSSION . . . . . . . . . .Wal Thornhill, Robert Lugibihl, Dwardu Cardona
THOTH 1999 09 ARE WE GETTING THERE? . . . . Dwardu Cardona and Wal Thornhill
THOTH 1999 11 RITUAL BALL GAMES . . . Dave Davis, Dwardu Cardona, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 12 ASTROBIOLOGY . . . . . Ev Cochrane, Dwardu Cardona, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 17 THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY . . . . . . . . . . . . . excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper
THOTH 1999 18 THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part II . . . . . . . . excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper
THOTH V4-01 THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part III . . . . . . . .excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper
THOTH V4-02 THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part IV . . . . . . . .excerpts from Dwardu Cardona's SIS Silver Jubilee Paper
THOTH V4-03 THE NEUTRINO QUESTION . . . . . . . . . . . . . .by Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V6-01 THE CAPTURE QUESTION AGAIN . . . . . . . . . . . .Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V6-08 BIRTH OF VENUS . . . . . discussion with Ken Moss, Dwardu Cardona, and Wal Thornhill

[Lloyd]

21165

TALBOTT ON SATURN MYTHS

I'm showing some slightly paraphrased excerpts from Dave Talbott's article. These are mostly themes from the early phases of the Golden Age and some from the late phase, when Jupiter possibly replaced Saturn at the polar position and Venus and Mars became unstable etc.

__From Myth to a Physical Model [Aeon Journal]
From: Aeon III:3 (Oct 1993)
__"Holographic Paradigm"
_There was no Golden Age without the creator-king -- anywhere.
_The province of the creator king is the cosmic temple, city, or kingdom -- always.
_And the creator-king was the primeval sun god, the superior sun that lit the world from one spot.
_That spot was the summit of the world mountain -- in every well-developed mythical system.
_The land ruled by the creator-king was the land of the four rivers, also depicted as a celestial domain supported by the four pillars, which turn out to be four extensions of the central mount or column.
_None of the recurring mythical themes can be separated from any of the others.
_The eye of the one-eyed god turns out to be his own spouse, daughter or consort -- who is called, appropriately, the "eye-goddess.
_But the same goddess-figure was the heart-soul that ascended as a star upon the death of the creator-king.
_When the king died, the heart-soul was also claimed to depart as a great comet, which happens to be the form taken by the lamenting goddess, who was the same figure as the eye- and heart-soul goddess.
_But this raging goddess was also depicted as a great serpent or dragon attacking the world.
_Nor can the legendary warrior-hero be treated as an isolated figure. He appeared universally as the servant of the creator-king.
_But this turns out to be the very same figure who won the daughter or spouse of a [the same] famous king or chief in a great contest, while the most popular form of the contest was the hero's battle against the serpent or dragon [Venus?] that attacked the world.
_The birth of the hero was from the womb of the eye- or soul-goddess, and the event itself was inseparably connected to the formation of the world mountain or world pillar, a column with which the hero was, in fact, identified -- though prior to this identification the hero existed as the pupil in the eye of the one-eyed creator king, which is provably the same thing mythically as the hero's pre-existence in the womb of the great goddess.
_The pillar or mountain, on the other hand, turns out to be the famous weapon -- the sword, mace or club -- used by the hero in his battle against the chaos monster.
_The substratum of myth demonstrates, in the most dramatic way, that originally the central mythical images possessed multiple meanings that were subsequently lost to differentiation.
_Originally there was a warrior god who was his weapon -- a sword, club, mace, or spear.
_That weapon was also a pillar or cosmic mountain supporting heaven, but the same column appeared as a stream of luminous "wind" stretching between heaven and earth, but also the underworld fount or river.
_In archaic terms, one interpretation sits comfortably alongside the others, because a singular form in the sky produced a series of equally compelling interpretations. But how long could the unified image of the celestial "sword-pillar-mountain-wind-river" survive, once the external reference -- the actual celestial form -- had been removed? Eventually the sword of the warrior hero is only a sword carried by a god that has come to look like a man. The pillar too is differentiated and perhaps now stands beside the human form of the god as a semi-independent symbol. The god may continue to be represented hieroglyphically by the sword or by the pillar, but he is no longer identified conceptually as the sword or as the pillar.
_Over time the separation of god, sword, pillar, mountain, wind and river will leave only the anomaly of archaic language and images:
a single hieroglyph or pictograph with a dual meaning of sword and pillar;
a mythical fragment recalling a sword embedded in, or functioning as the central pillar of a palatial dwelling;
a sword-god bearing the epithet "north wind" or "south wind" (always meaning the wind below the land of the gods, identical to the fountain welling up from the deep); a mountain that bears the name of the celestial wind or river, but is launched as a sword or weapon.
_At every turn we confront "anomalies" that point not to confusion or irrationality (the common assumption), but to the original integrity of myth. For example: all of these echoes of that underlying unity literally surround the fully developed warrior hero figures -- Assyrian Nergal, Hindu Indra, Rudra and Shiva, Greek Ares, Hercules, Apollo, and of course the Egyptian Shu, Horus, Set, Sept, Anup and others. It is the earliest instances that illuminate the later, for the obvious reason that the farther back you reach, the closer you are to the original, unified experience.
_So it is not surprising to find that the Egyptian Shu, or Shu-Anhur, a sword-god par excellence, reveals the full range of anticipated motifs. In addition to worshipping the god as heaven-reaching sword or scepter, the Egyptians invoked the celestial "waterway" of Shu, celebrated the god as the North Wind (literally, the "wind of the below," rising to vivify the stationary sun god Ra), and depicted the god as the great pillar of the sky, even as they declared the very same god to be the Primeval Hill, the resplendent mountain of beginnings.
_As to this unified portrait, not one Egyptologist in a hundred and fifty years has even attempted an explanation. For what explanation is possible? The images, in their own terms and deprived of a celestial reference, are as contradictory as night and day.
_Celestial forms no longer present and events no longer occurring left their signature, not just on the landscape of affected planets, but in the collective memory of man as he strove to align himself with the experienced powers, to be true to the gods.
_The existence of the "Saturnian enclosure" is certain, but it was visually inside Saturn instead of around Saturn, at least in the beginning. The gases of the elliptical Venus-egg were resolved into a band that expanded outward.
_It is likely that Saturn and the planetary orbs juxtaposed with Saturn, were the only bodies seen at the time that Saturn was said to have dominated the sky. The stars were probably not visible because the night sky was so brightly lit by this primary congregation of planets.
_In the earliest remembered age the creator-king and heaven were synonymous.
_What was originally void of form acquired a more elaborate organization, with distinctive motions of the parts. Primeval "void" "chaos," and "formlessness" signify one and the same state. The flowering form of the Heaven Man was the creation. In several versions of the myth, the god's own body is the "primeval matter" of creation; then in later lore the mythical figure frequently appeared as a primordial monster or giant (Norse Ymir, Hindu Purusha, Chinese Pan Ku) sacrificed to produce the varied forms of a new cosmic order.
_The original myth told of the organization, disruption and transformation of a visible celestial dwelling, the land of the gods.
_The majority of myths say that only water stretched across "heaven" or the unformed world in the beginning. Imagine the gas-giant Saturn (with no visible rings) hovering above ancient man and brought to a golden glow in the night sky. Mythically the heaven-god was "the golden waters," the sea. The gaseous, turbulent envelope of Saturn, for the observer on earth, had all of the features of a wind-driven "ocean" above the boundless, formless sea, the misty place or backdrop of certain, more focused events. Cosmic sea and heaven-god are originally synonymous. In more than one astronomical tradition, of course, Saturn is not only the sphere of "heaven," but the water planet.
__Planetary Motifs -- Earliest Phase
_In the earliest phase of the configuration, the crucial ideas are sphericity (both the spherical and ovoid forms of Venus), centrality (Venus was seen squarely in the middle of Saturn or "heaven"), and the planet's role as an enclosure housing a smaller orb.
_It is only with the beginning of differentiation that Venus emerged as an independent power, and the Venusian character as celestial womb and female principle is clearly an overarching motif.
_The mythical identity of Venus starts as an enclosure and ends as one
_Venus was the soul-star and the heart of the creator-king.
_The Martian hero, on the other hand, was the enclosed sphere (stone, ball, small orb) inside the heart, what the Egyptians called "the heart of the heart". For the ancient Sumerians, the "heart" of heaven meant the womb of the hero's birth.
_Venus was "the Eye Goddess."
_The creator-king possessed a single eye.
_And it is impossible to separate the Eye Goddess from the warrior hero, for he appeared explicitly as the pupil of the Eye, or the red apple of the eye.
_Venus was seen as Vase, Navel of the World, Nave of the Sun-Wheel and Cosmic Egg. One of the mythical events consistently placed in an early phase of creation is the birth of the cosmic egg or world egg. "The Great Chronos fashioned in the divine Aether or cosmic waters a silver egg. And it moved without slackening in a vast circle".
__Saturnian Crescent
_A series of interconnected images, revolving ships, revolving horns, horned peaks, outstretched arms and outstretched wings, all presented in alternating positions around a central figure, with a distinctive relationship to an apparent celestial column, and in explicit association with a cycle of day and night, led to understanding Saturn's bright crescent, similar to the crescent Moon. The crescent was produced by light from the Sun. If a rotating Earth was in any relationship to the Sun that could produce such an image, then the celestial form would go through a daily cycle, with the crescent moving around Saturn's limb, a revolving crescent.
_One planet signified the original creator-king, god of the golden age; the other the re-born or rejuvenated creator-king whose saga was celebrated every New Year. It is impossible not to notice that the elder figure was continually associated with Saturn and the younger with Jupiter.
_The underlying events suggest that with Saturn's removal from the polar center and a period of general confusion, Jupiter came to occupy the visible position previously held by Saturn.
_Egyptian sources repeat again and again that Horus [Mars], the warrior-hero and former pupil of the Eye, delivered the Eye [Venus] to Osiris [Jupiter], and the texts also confirm that the Eye and heart-soul are synonymous.
_A small descent of Mars from the polar center visually produces a much larger orb visually. In fact, Mars becomes much larger than Venus even before it has fully emerged from the Venus-womb (cf., the myth of the hero's birth: he bursts from the womb, is of giant size at birth, then quickly grows immense after birth.) If one imagines Mars continuing toward the Earth, eventually the planet appears as a giant mound on the northern horizon.

[Lloyd]

21305

WORKING ON CHRONOLOGY VIA MYTHS

This is my 5th post on this thread so far this week. I'm now reviewing articles on ancient myths from the former Thoth online magazine (and some from Aeon journal) to see how myths can help us determine Earth's Chronology. The articles are mostly at http://www.saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/ . I'm quoting and paraphrasing the following excerpts and adding comments to try to help find clues.

[SEVEN SATURN MYTH THEMES]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 997.03.txt
_SATURN THEORY, OVERVIEW (3) _By David Talbott
THE ONE STORY TOLD AROUND THE WORLD.
RULES FOR RE-ENVISIONING HUMAN HISTORY.
1. we will always work from the general motif to the specific;
2. only broadly recurring themes count as evidence, particularly in the early stages of the reconstruction;
3. Earlier-recorded versions of the recurring themes must be permitted to explain later variants;
4. we must allow ancient drawings to illuminate the myths and rites, while permitting the myths and rites to illuminate the drawings.
How many archetypal figures of myth are there? SEVEN
1. UNIVERSAL MONARCH [Saturn]
2. QUEEN OF HEAVEN [Venus]
3. WARRIOR-HERO [Mars]
4. PRIMEVAL SEVEN ([Saturn moons] satellite figures: wise men, patriarchs, seers, children, dwarves, stones of fate, stars, orbs, heads of the chaos monster[?], the first reason for the sanctity of the number seven in ancient symbolism)
5. CHAOS MONSTER (menacing powers, linked to the mother goddess or warrior-hero, that presides over the twilight of the gods until defeated, bringing in a new age -- The Chaos Monster denotes the interacting forms of Mars and Venus in periods of instability or cosmic *disorder*, as gas and dust or other material stretched between planets, giving shape to the evolving forms of the monster in different phases of the configuration.)
6. CHAOS HORDES (companions of the chaos monster, swarming powers of disorder, flaming, devouring demons - Valkyries, Erinyes, Pazuzu-demons, Fiends of Set - a sky-darkening cloud ushering in the cosmic night)
7. REJUVENATED CREATOR-KING [Jupiter]
[COMMENT: It doesn't seem that the Primeval Seven should include the heads of the Chaos Monster, since those would seem more appropriate in the category of Chaos Monster itself.
_TENTATIVE CHRONOLOGY. Dim Saturn was there first, then it brightened and Venus became visible and then Mars. The Primeval Seven, Saturn moons, may have become visible early on as well. Things were apparently serene for decades to centuries, then Mars and Venus became unstable, the Chaos Monster (Mars, Venus etc) and Hordes arrived. Then Saturn departed, but was replaced by Jupiter with involvement of Venus and Mars. I wonder if there are myths about Jupiter, Venus and Mars departing. I'm pinning the instability and chaos to the time of the Younger Dryas event. It's hard to tell so far if the Golden Age started right after the Great Flood, or 1,500 or so years before the Flood at the time of Genesis Creation/Re-creation. But it seems pretty certain the Golden Age ended at the Younger Dryas event.]

[JUPITER AS SATURN REBORN]
Numerical Analysis of Planetary Distances in a Polar Model [Aeon Journal]
_From: Aeon V:4 (July 1999)
_During a remote time in the human experience, our Solar System was radically different than now. The ancient configuration [was a] polar model. Saturn was the dominant body in the sky. It loomed large and its position in the [polar] sky appeared fixed. Venus appeared centered in the middle [in front] of Saturn. It was thus seen by the ancients as the eye of Saturn. Mars appeared centered in the middle [in front] of Venus, but with variable angular size. It appeared dark red in colour and was widely referred to as the pupil of the eye. No other planets [were seen].
_The invisibility of Jupiter, Uranus, and Neptune can be explained by their being much farther away, [or] by their location directly behind Saturn, or merely by their absence. It is tempting to hypothesize here that Jupiter might have been recently captured and that this event led to the collapse of the polar configuration. (Numerical study of the capture of Jupiter from the molecular cloud in the Orion region that was crossed by the Solar System a few millions years ago is a work presently under way.)
[COMMENT: I think Jupiter didn't arrive in myths until the final phase, when Jupiter was thought to be Saturn reborn. Let's try to analyze this before long, to see which of the above scenarios seems most likely. I don't think we'll need to consider the Orion region of the sky of millions of years ago at this point though.]

[WARS OF THE GODS OR TITANS]
"Reconstructing the Saturn Myth [Aeon Journal]
From: The Cataclysm (Aeon) I:1 (Jan 1988)
_Wars of the Gods
_As a mythical archetype, the cataclysm is not merely a terrestrial disturbance, it is the story of celestial upheaval. The gods themselves battle in the sky, wreaking havoc on the earth and rearranging the heavens. Their weapons include thunderbolts and stone, flaming "arrows," fire-breathing dragons, celestial wind and flood. The tale is most familiar to us, perhaps, as the famous wars of the Titans, the catastrophic aftermath of the Golden Age of Kronos, when "wide heaven was shaken and groaned, and high Olympos reeled from its foundation under the charge of the undying gods. So, then, they launched their grievous shafts upon one another, and the cry of both armies as they shouted reached to starry heaven; and they met together with a great battle-cry. Then Zeus showed forth all his strength. From Heaven and from Olympos, he came forthwith, hurling his lightning; and the bolts flew thick and fast from his strong hand together with thunder and lightning, whirling an awesome flame".
[COMMENT: These wars occurred at the end of the Golden Age, IMO.]

[260-DAY YEAR]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 997.24.txt
_VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS (8) _By David Talbott
_The other [Aztec] calendar was based on a 260-day cycle whose original meaning is still being debated. Enigmatically, this ritual calendar appears to have no self- evident logic in terms of the natural cycles one would expect to find reflected in calendar phases. And yet, for ritual reasons, the sacred 260-day calendar dominated the solar calendar.
_The 260-day ritual calendar combined two different sequences, one a series of 20 days-signs, the other a sequence of 13 day-numbers, so that there were a total of 260 combinations of the two sequences to complete a sacred calendrical period.
[COMMENT: Maybe the 260-day Aztec/meso-american calendar was related to the 290-day Tiahuanaco meso-american calendar.
_The Venus comet probably appeared at the end of the Golden Age too.]

[MARS CLOSE TO EARTH]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.01.txt
_MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE: Part I of II _By Ev Cochrane
_According to Dodd, these crystallization age analyses have "shown beyond reasonable doubt that all of them [the SNCs] come from the same body, certainly a planet and probably Mars."
_Analysis of the noble gases trapped in some of the shergottites (EETA79001 and ALHA77005) has revealed the clear signature of Mars.
_"Subsequent laboratory work on EETA79001 revealed a pronounced enrichment of 15N, consistent with the isotopically heavy nitrogen that distinguishes the atmosphere of Mars from virtually all other volatile reservoirs in the solar system."
_The new evidence suggests that it is more likely that SNC meteorites were ejected from Mars in three considerably smaller impact events at times corresponding to the three groups of cosmic ray exposure ages" [0.5, 2.6 and 11-Myr ago]. It is noteworthy, however, that this scenario involving three separate events was discarded by Vickery and Melosh in no uncertain terms. Other problems arise from the fact that the various SNCs experienced different degrees of shock.
_Melosh said it is possible for planetary impacts to eject a requisite amount of near-surface material without significant shocking through a process known as spallation.
[COMMENT: Since Mars was apparently initially seen on the face of Venus on the face of Saturn, and it appeared to grow large before the breakup, it must have gotten closer to Earth during the breakup and was somewhat farther away during the prior Golden Age.]

http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.02.txt
_MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE: Part II _By Ev Cochrane
_I have confirmed that the ancients described Mars as being much closer in recent times, close enough, in fact, to dominate the skies. Various Babylonian omens, for example, associate Mars with prodigious eclipses of the Sun [Saturn]. Consider the following omen: "If the Sun goes down (by a Darkness/Eclipse) and Mars stands in its place, there will be an Usurpator."
_If Mars only recently moved upon a different orbit, one much closer to the Earth, the Babylon reports become easier to understand.
_The ancient Babylonians specifically referred to meteorites falling from the planet Mars, making such objects the subject of various omens. Witness the following example: "If in the sky a meteor (train) from a planet [Mustabarru mutanu=Mars] appears: destruction of cattle will occur in the land." Yet another text has the following passage: "If a fireball [meteor] (coming from) Mars is seen..."
_Nergal and Indra, both identified with Mars, were said to hurl great stones or bolides onto Earth.
_Like Nergal/Mars, Indra was intimately associated with eclipses of the "Sun" and various other extraordinary celestial disturbances.
_Various passages in the Rig Veda relate that Indra's gargantuan form dominated the skies, extending from heaven to earth.
_The unusual apparition associated with Indra's ketu, quite possibly, was a string of fiery meteorites hovering over the Earth like the proverbial sword of Damocles, thus uniting [connecting] heaven and earth. If Indra was the planet Mars, as the evidence seems to indicate, we have here an apparent reference to meteorites being strung out between Mars and the Earth.
_The Maruts had some relation to meteoritic phenomena, perhaps being meteorites attending the red planet. Velikovsky's conjecture receives support from the fact that the Maruts are said to shine in heaven like blazing fires, or like brilliant snakes. They were also much feared for the terrible noise and commotion they wrought in heaven.
_Does this not recall the terrible noise which frequently accompanies meteorites as they enter the Earth's atmosphere? The Maruts are elsewhere said to hurl down rocks from heaven.
_It is also noteworthy that Rudra's [aka Mars'] darts are specifically associated with the death of cattle, the very calamity associated with Martian meteorites in Babylonian omens.
_Rudra is intimately associated with the onset of sickness and pestilence. As I have documented elsewhere, the planet Mars was associated with pestilence throughout the ancient world. Here the pestilence-bringing "arrows" of Rudra offer a striking parallel to those associated with other Martian gods-the Greek Apollo, for example.
[COMMENT: So the ancients said Mars eclipsed the former sun, which was Saturn. Mars had to get closer to Earth to do that, so that must have occurred at the time of the breakup.]

[MARS CLOSE TO VENUS]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.04.txt
_POLAR CONFIGURATION DISCUSSION
_Dr Spedicato suggested that the original diameter of Venus had to be greater than it is now, otherwise Mars would cover it completely in the polar configuration. This implies that Venus during the collapse of the configuration lost mass. A loss of mass could be explained if Venus had a catastrophic interaction with another planet.
_Dave said: While the cometary aspect of Venus may indeed have caused it to look larger than it does today, it needs to be understood that what happened to Mars visually in relation to Venus depended on the position of the terrestrial observer. For an observer beneath the 45th parallel, as Mars moves toward the Earth it does not occlude Venus, but moves visually BELOW Venus. When it is as large as Venus, it is almost or entirely below the sphere of Venus, depending on the precise location of the observer. The small size of Mars enabled the observer beneath the 45th parallel to see "over" Mars as it approached the Earth, thus causing it to descend visually. Of the participating planets, only Mars has a size enabling it to do what the myths claim of it ("descent of the hero").
_Ev Cochrane said he demonstrated using high tech computer simulations, that Mars fit neatly within the visual outline of the much larger Venus when located in relative close proximity to Venus.
[COMMENT: When Mars appeared to be the size of Venus, it was closer to Earth.]

[BEGINNING & END OF THE GOLDEN AGE]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.08.txt
_SATURN CONFIGURATION DISCUSSION
_CARDONA: The Saturnian nebular cloud would have shielded the Sun from view until after Saturn's flare-up which, among other things, blew the cloud out of existence.
_The Golden Age stretched over that period during which the Saturnian configuration was complete - that is with Venus and Mars in place at the centre of the Saturnian orb, but BEFORE the first visible descent of Venus and Mars.
[COMMENT: I'm not clear if the Sun became visible after the Golden Age, or after the Great Flood, or after the Genesis Creation event. Cardona said both Venus and Mars descended, i.e. got closer to Earth, during the breakup.]

[MARS' LOSS OF ATMOSPHERE AND OCEANS]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.12.txt
_BY JOVE By Dave Talbott
_ASTROBIOLOGY by Ev Cochrane, Dwardu Cardona, and Dave Talbott
_DAVE TALBOTT said: I believe that removal of Martian atmosphere and oceans preceded its acquisition of the reddish hue with which so many Martian figures are associated. The very first forms of the warrior-hero do not seem to suggest this redness, but in the case of the more active phases of the figure, including his terrible aspect (Set, Typhon), redness is a dominant feature. Rather than speak of "red-hot" material streaming toward the Earth, I've expressed the suspicion that lower levels of Arctic or Antarctic ice include water and dust pulled from Mars. More than one rock identified as Martian has been removed form Antarctic ice, but that does not take into account any of the much larger volume of Martian rock that would have been removed from deeper levels by an electrical discharge capable of creating the stupendous Valles Marineris (the deeper material would lack the chemical signature of surface material identified by the Viking probes of the soil). From what Wal has described dynamically in electrical interactions, I can imagine active transport of atmosphere and dust without necessarily killing off all microorganisms.
[COMMENT: This is apparently where I got Dave's idea that Venus pulled atmosphere and ocean waters from Mars. I don't agree that electrical discharge created the Mars canyon. I think Charles Chandler said lightning doesn't move positive ions, but just electrons. I don't know if the elves and sprites above thunderstorms are positive or negative. So megalightning likely didn't remove matter from Mars. He said megalightning on the Sun does appear to fuse elements, I guess by bombarding them with high-speed electrons.
_At the beginning of the Golden Age, Mars must have been a different color instead of reddish. Meteorites from Mars may have had microorganisms from Mars.]

[MARS ECLIPSED SATURN]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.14.txt
_Ev Cochrane: Mars is pointed to as a principle agent behind "eclipses" of the ancient sun god.2
[COMMENT: This is just more evidence of Mars close to Earth etc.]

[ORIGIN OF LANGUAGE]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.15.txt
_MYTHIC ROOTS OF LANGUAGE part II _By Dave Talbott
__Dave Talbott: I believe that the conjunction of symbols will trace back to the beginnings of language -- and specifically to the conjunction of Mars and Venus in the model we have presented.
_The "radiance" of the Great Star took the color of copper ore, i.e., brilliant turquoise. Copper ore (such as malachite) was used to produce the turquoise color of the Venus-eye-goddess symbols in both Egypt and Mesopotamia. And Aphrodite was called the "copper" goddess, the Cyprian.
_Also, it's hard for me to imagine that the root meanings around the word "comma" would not be related to its spiraling form, which IS the form of the Venus goddess as the spiraling lifebreath (exhaled heart-soul, displaced eye). The same form is represented by the apostrophe. Thus Aphrodite, the planet Venus, is called "Apostrophia".
_Ancient imagery of the Greek omphalos or navel, which neatly represents the conjunction of Mars and Venus in the model. The raised boss or knob of the omphalos will be the sphere of Mars, and the golden band around this boss will be the planet Venus (gold typically representing "brilliance" in the ancient world). The juxtaposed spheres of Venus and Mars do indeed look like the "navel" of Saturn -- as many people viewing the illustration have observed.
[COMMENT: I think Venus became turquoise colored during the breakup phase. At what point was Venus a comet?
_Looks like language and civilization originated just after the Saturn system breakup.]

PERMAFROST AFTER BREAKUP]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv02.txt
_THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY: Part II
_As Dolph Hooker informs us: "we cannot find evidence that Earth's climate grew cold before the advent of an ice age; on the contrary, climate grew colder only after the ice arrived and only to the extent that the ice itself refrigerated the Earth." "Obviously the permafrost accumulated from the bottom upward -- not by freezing from the top downward." What this means is that the detritus which forms the permafrost was frozen as it was being laid down.
_What I am claiming is that the snow, ice, and sleet came from the axial vortex when it was severed for the last time because that is where a vast quantity of terrestrial moisture had been stored. But why, and how, then did it freeze to fall as snow, and ice, and sleet? As mentioned earlier, this all transpired during the break-up of the Saturnian configuration. Saturn, Venus, and Mars were thrown out of axial alignment. And so was Earth. Its axis shifted to take up the alignment it now possesses.
[COMMENT: I had previously figured the blast from Saturn produced first heat radiation, followed by cold gases and dust. But I forgot that the polar column also likely contained water etc, which would have frozen very cold in space above the atmosphere before falling to Earth. So that may help most to solve the permafrost mystery. It looks like the column was last above central Siberia when it severed and poured down. One Thoth article said a Flood came from the North when the column severed.]

[MARS & VENUS DURING BREAKUP & JUPITER'S ARRIVAL]
http://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv10.txt
_FORTRESS AND LABYRINTH _By Dave Talbot
_The polar configuration involved these common elements, among others:
1) meandering, "drunken" or "crane"-dance of the hero;
2) winding path of the maze or labyrinth;
3) the cross or swastika, the central celestial source from which the sinuous "paths" arose;
4) "bowels" of the cavern entered by the hero;
5) swallowing of the hero by the chaos monster;
6) disheveled and "entangling" hair of the mother goddess in her threatening aspect;
7) winding or unwinding of intestines;
8) intricate windings of a rope or thread, or an elaborate "knot" which only the hero can undo; and
9) a "riddle" or "paradox" which only the hero can solve
_In all of these forms we see key sequences in the hero's confrontation with the chaos powers.
_The explanation begins with the planetary alignment of the polar configuration, when four luminous streamers were seen radiating from Venus in the form of an equal-limbed cross. In a phase of intense discharging linked to the onset of instability, these streamers took on a whorl-like appearance, such as the swastika.
_Eventually the displacement of the aligned planets produced an irregular and complex streamer pattern, as Venus and Mars danced around the polar center in awkward motions, due to the visual effects of displacement from the polar axis and the moving position of the observer on a rotating earth. In their labyrinthine windings these streamers acquired the appearance of an impenetrable citadel in the heavens. Fundamentally, that is what the labyrinth means: a great fortress which only the hero, be he Gilgamesh or Theseus, will succeed in entering.
_The essential corollary to this theme is the conjunction of the hero and mother goddess. The windings of the labyrinth are, in fact, the very essence of the goddess, and the hero's entry into the labyrinth can not be separated from his conjunction with the great mother. (ALL mythical themes involve the conjunction principle.)
_Many themes relating to the terrible goddess and the ordeal, initiation, or rebirth of the hero occur in association with the first appearance of Jupiter. In one way or another the motifs of swallowing, cavernous hiding place, wrapping or winding, binding, and imprisonment run through all of the accounts relating to Jupiter's emergence as sovereign power.
[COMMENT: So the odd motions of Venus and Mars occurred at the time Jupiter became visible, which I think was when Saturn departed.]

[Rick]

Interesting thing that you have been doing. Have you read Dwardu Cardona's books?

[Lloyd]

I've skimmed through some of Cardona's books. I've discussed his material numerous times in this thread. You can find the locations where I've discussed his stuff (with links) at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... read-index

[Lloyd]

21607

NEW OUTLINE OF EARTH HISTORY

EARTH HISTORY SUMMARY
1. 1st Age (ManyCenturies) -- 1'. GENESIS EVENT 6,000(±10c) BP
2. 2nd Age: FIRST GOLDEN AGE -- 2'. GREAT FLOOD 4,600(±2c) BP
3. 3rd Age: SECOND GOLDEN AGE -- 3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT 4,250(±1c) BP
4. 4th Age: PRECHRISTIAN ERA -- 4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT 2,020-1,990 BP
5. 5th Age: CHRISTIAN ERA 1,990 BP to PRESENT

LINKS TO WORK IN PROGRESS
1. 1st Age: PREGENESIS (Origin)-6,000 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/49/1st-age-pregenesis-origin-000
1'. GENESIS EVENT 6,000 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/50/genesis-event-000-10c-bp
2. 2nd Age: FIRST GOLDEN AGE 6,000-4,600 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/51/2nd-age-first-golden-000
2'. GREAT FLOOD 4,600 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/52/great-flood-700-2c-bp
3. 3rd Age: SECOND GOLDEN AGE 4,600-4,250 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/53/3rd-age-second-golden-700
3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT 4,250 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/54/younger-dryas-event-300-1c
4. 4th Age: PRECHRISTIAN ERA 4,250-2,020 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/55/4th-age-prechristian-era-300
4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT 2,020-1,990 BP; futureschool.boards.net/thread/56/christian-event-020-990-bp
5. 5th Age: CHRISTIAN ERA 1,990 BP to PRESENT futureschool.boards.net/thread/57/5th-age-christian-era-present

DETAILED SUMMARY

_1. 1st Age: PREGENESIS ____ (Origin)-6,000(±10c) BP
a. Saturn System Origin with Weak Gravity Due to Tidal Forces
b. Earth Origin
c. Supercontinent Origin
d. Pre-Flood Biosphere History: Era of Megafauna, Megaflora, Giant Insects, Normal Creatures

__1'. GENESIS EVENT ____6,000(±10c) BP;
a. Saturn Flare
b. Sunlight produced Revolving Saturn Crescent

_2. 2nd Age: FIRST GOLDEN AGE ____6,000(±10c)-4,700(±2c) BP;
a. Patriarchs
b. Pre-Flood Biosphere History: Era of Megafauna, Megaflora, Giant Insects, Normal Creatures

__2'. GREAT FLOOD ____4,700(±2c) BP;
a. Saturn Flare Ejected Debris = Meteors
b. Meteor Bombardment Formed Earth Basins
c. Close-elliptically-orbiting Small Moon Caused Monthly Tidal Waves
d. Six Monthly Tidal Waves Formed Six Sedimentary Rock Megasequences
e. Mid-flood Saturn Flare Deposited Debris & Thinned Atmosphere
f. Late-flood Asteroid Impact Shattered the Supercontinent
g. Rapid Continental Drift Separated Continents, Produced Widespread Volcanism & Formed Mountain Chains & Radioactive Crustal Elements
h. Antarctic Ice Age Began
i. Receding Flood Waters Formed the Grand Canyon & Many Large Lakes & Removed Surface Rock Strata in Many Places

_3. 3rd Age: SECOND GOLDEN AGE ____4,700(±2c)-4,300(±1c) BP;
a. Saturn Configuration & Beginning of Myth-making
b. Present Moon Arrived; Equatorial Lands Inundated by High Ocean Level
(Egypt is 30 degrees north of the equator. Cardona said the oceans were high at the North Pole, so it seems they may have been high both at the pole and the equator, so that might mean that they were low everywhere in between.)
c. Arctic Lands Warmed by Saturn
d. Age of Giant Mammals & Prolific Biosphere
e. Early Megalithic Civilization: Sumer, Egypt, Tiahuanaco, Gobekli Tepe, Baltic Troy; Bronze Age

__3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT ____4,300(±1c) BP;
= Egyptian Second Intermediate Period?
a. Saturn Flare
b. Conflagration
c. Thinned Atmosphere & Arctic Carnage & Freezing
d. Planetoids in Chaotic Motion
e. Saturn System Broke Up
f. Gravity Increased; Gigantism Ended

_4. 4th Age: PRECHRISTIAN ERA ____4,300(±1c)-2,020 BP;
a. Arctic Permafrost Began; Greeks & Trojans Moved From Scandinavia to Mediterranean; Egypt & Sumer Continued; Late Bronze Age to Iron Age
b. Minor Impacts Continued for Centuries
c. Northern Climates Cooled; North Africa & Middle East Became Arid
d. Buddhism
e. Some Prechristian History has probably been Faked by a Ruling Class

__4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT ____2,020-1,990 BP;
a. Jesus taught & demonstrated Exemplary Living

_5. 5th Age: CHRISTIAN ERA ____1,990 BP to PRESENT
a. Jesus' Apostles followed and elaborated his Example
b. Pre-Constantine Christianity
c. Roman Christianity
d. Pacifist Christianity
e. Non-Christianity: Judaism, Buddhism, Islam etc
f. Republicanism
g. Much Christian Era History has been Faked by a Ruling Class

COMMENT: I'll try to update all that soon. There seem to be at least 5 known Ages, which some of the ancients referred to. Looks like those listed above may be close to correct. I show 2 Golden Ages because the pre-Flood Age was likely Edenic, maybe even more so than post-Flood. But maybe the Saturn configuration was more impressive post-Flood and was more the Age of Myths.

[Lloyd]

21980

COMMENTS ON PREVIOUS POST REGARDING EARTH HISTORY SUMMARY

I'm thinking I'll try to write an online book using the Outline from the previous post. I'll just do it on my private forum, at least initially. Here's the link: https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... history-lk

EARTH HISTORY SUMMARY
1. 1st Age: PREGENESIS -- 1'. GENESIS EVENT 6,000(±10c) BP
2. 2nd Age: EARLY GOLDEN AGE -- 2'. GREAT FLOOD 4,700(#2c) BP
3. 3rd Age: LATE GOLDEN AGE -- 3'. YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT 4,300(#1c) BP
4. 4th Age: PRECHRISTIAN ERA -- 4'. CHRISTIAN EVENT 2,020-1,990 BP
5. 5th Age: CHRISTIAN ERA 1,990 BP to PRESENT

NOTES
_CATACLYSMS. Note that each age ended with natural cataclysms. This present age may end with artificial cataclysm.
_OUTLINE CHANGES. I changed the 1st and 2nd Golden Age to the Early and Late Golden Age.
_CIVILIZATION. Under Late Golden Age, I added that the Megalithic Civilizations were modeled on the Saturn Configuration. It occurred to me that the Megalithic Civilizations remains might tell us if they were built during the Golden Age or shortly after the Golden Age ended with the Younger Dryas event.
_RELIGION. Under PreChristian Era to Christian Era, I added that Religions were modeled largely on the Golden Age.

_SATURN/JUPITER SYSTEM EVOLUTION. I made an illustration of the orbits of the solar system and a possible last orbit of the Saturn System. I call it LAST ORBIT OF SATURN SYSTEM LEADING TO BREAKUP. I posted it at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/180/thread
_CAPTION.
_The Red Line indicates the path of Saturn. The Saturn System was on an elliptical or hyperbolic orbit approaching the inner solar system. After Mars and Venus became unstable, Saturn flared and became unstable as well and Saturn fell out of the system at the orbit of Saturn.
_The Blue Line indicates the path of Jupiter. After Saturn fell away, Jupiter became visible, as it was previously hidden by Saturn. Mars dropped away at the orbit of Mars. Jupiter must have taken Earth and Venus at least to the orbit of Earth, where Earth and Venus also dropped away from Jupiter at its perihelion. Jupiter then began to move back toward its aphelion, outside of the asteroid belt.
_I assume that after Saturn dropped out, the Earth was then warmed by Jupiter as it had been by Saturn. From the Saturn orbit to Earth orbit would have taken a decade or more. I think much life on Earth would have frozen to extinction, if Earth had journeyed on that path alone without Jupiter or Saturn. Earthlings thought Jupiter was Saturn rejuvenated. Jupiter may have appeared smaller at first and got bigger, i.e. closer, soon after Saturn departed. They had at least a few years to get acquainted with the new King God of the Sky.
_I hope to find info on the departure of Mars, Venus and Jupiter from the Saturn Configuration.

[Lloyd]

22168

WHEN SATURN, MARS, JUPITER, VENUS & EARTH LEFT THE SATURN SYSTEM

That's what I'm working on at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/182/thread

ZEUS WAS MARS

I don't know if Zeus is considered to have been Mars in all myths, but in the following discussion, it appears that Zeus was Mars at least in some myths in which Saturn was succeeded by Jupiter in the Saturn configuration. Velikovsky had figured that Venus erupted from the planet Jupiter, based on the Greek myth of Athena springing from the head of Zeus. But, in the Saturn configuration, it would have appeared to Earth observers that Venus and Mars were together, and since Mars was closer to Earth, it could have appeared the Venus sometimes came from Mars. So that's my suspicion now. The following is slightly paraphrased excerpts from a Thoth article. PS, it says the Age of Saturn was followed by the Age of Jupiter, so I'm wondering if Jupiter may have remained at the north polar axis for some time after the Younger Dryas event (when Saturn departed), or if Jupiter departed before the cataclysm, but after Saturn departed.

Male Gods
https://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv12.txt
_When Zeus [[Mars?]] kills Kronos [[Saturn]] we envision the Mars God as Inner Soul overcoming the Golden Age God [[Saturn]].
_This is not the parricide myth. It is the story of Saturn's emergence as a separate power, in events synonymous with the birth of the goddess and hero. The subject is the "first activity" of the planetary configuration. Unified heaven (proto-Saturn) gives way to differentiation. In the Egyptian myth the birth of Shu and Tefnut from the originally inert and unified form of Atum gives rise to THREE--Re, Shu and Tefnut--Saturn, Mars and Venus in the Saturn reconstruction.
_The comparative approach will confirm that the severed "testicles" of Ouranos correspond to the "seed" of the Egyptian Atum, holding the goddess and hero in conjunction. This male-female "seed"-- the"BEN" stone--typically appears as a single eye (the goddess) together with its "pupil" (hero), though the emerging male and female forms may also be called the "two eyes" in later elaborations of the myth. "Castration" and "blindness" thus go together in archaic symbolism.
_Hesiod's story of the birth of Zeus (____Jupiter) within a cave is really the story of the HERO "born" in the cave. It was not ____Jupiter that was carried off by the goddess. It was the unborn hero [[Mars]], as in the universal legend.
_These myths, I said, relate directly to the transition between Saturnian and Jovian epochs, the dissolution of a world age followed by renewal.
_The archetypal "birth [i.e., rebirth] of the hero" IS the story of the passage from Saturnian to Jovian sovereignty.
_In the earliest versions of the story, the warrior-hero is born from the womb of the mother goddess, who is Venus. The "birth of the hero" means the displacement of Mars from the position depicted in our initial snapshot of the planetary configuration.
_In connection with the descent of the god, a cosmic column appeared, a luminous stream stretching along the world axis. This cosmic column will be the world mountain, or the mountain upon which the hero was "exposed" at birth, or the mythic river into which the hero was cast at birth. By this association the hero himself was inseparably linked to the world pillar. Originally, it was his essence as the Atlas figure, supporting the turning sphere of "heaven" (Saturn) upon his shoulders.

[Lloyd]

22448

SKY EVENTS DURING THE GOLDEN AGE

From the this article I glean the following timeline: The Mythical History of the Comet Venus (Part I) Aeon II:4 (1991) by David Talbott.

1a. SATURN CONFIGURATION (Right after the Great Flood 4,700 BP). Saturn had no rings, but was close to Earth above the North Pole. The Moon is now about 230,000 miles from Earth and covers half a degree out of 180 degrees of sky. If Saturn had been the same distance above the Earth it would have covered 18 degrees of sky, but if it was 3 times farther up, it would have covered 6 degrees of sky, 12 times the size of the present Moon.

Venus was in front of Saturn and Mars was in front of Venus. If Saturn was at 690,000 miles, Venus at 460,000 and Mars at 230,000, Mars would have covered 1 degree, Venus 2 degrees and Saturn 6 degrees (assuming that these planets had the same diameters then as now). So Venus looked to the ancients like an EYE with a reddish PUPIL, Mars, on a god's FACE, Saturn.

1b. CHANGE (Just before the Younger Dryas event 4,300 BP). After the configuration had been stable for some decades or centuries, the system began to change.

2. DEBRIS CLOUD. A cometary stream between Venus and Saturn appeared to radiate from Venus over the face of Saturn. A "Creation" event began when a massive volume of material erupted from Saturn or from Venus, creating a cloud of comet-like debris around the configuration, described as a sea of chaos or a mass of fiery serpents, worms, dogs, jackals, wolves, birds, grass, reeds, or grain.

3. MARS. Mars then descended along the axis, giving the impression of being born from the womb of the Venus Eye goddess. Mars appeared to grow large as it came closer to Earth. A stream of gas or dust then stretched between Earth and Mars. Mars then looked like a ball atop a fiery column, mountain, or river.

4. VENUS. Venus at the same time began moving outward to revolve around the polar axis. A comet-like stream flowed from Venus toward Saturn and formed a fiery spiral or curl, that looked like a beard or sidelock of Mars. It appeared that the Saturn god exhaled the Venus Eye-Heart-Breath toward the surrounding chaos cloud.

5. CONFLAGRATION. The Venus "comet-tail" then separated from Saturn, seen as the dying breath of the Saturn god. The Venus comet became a raging fiery dragon, or flaming-haired witch, that spread debris over the face of Saturn, obscuring it for a time. A conflagration on Earth possibly followed.

6. NET. Venus' comet-tail spiraled around the polar axis nine times, like a whirlpool, or like a dragon or goddess wrapped around the cosmic mountain, or pillar. Four streams of material radiating from the polar axis crossed the nine spirals and produced a web or net pattern.

7. ENCLOSURE. When the net tightened, it became the Saturn god's dwelling or garment. The house of Horus = coffin or mummy wrappings of Osiris? Cartouche?

8. CRESCENT. Sunlight and shadow on the enclosure made a crescent shape.

9. TETHER. Venus continued to circle around the enclosure as if held by a tether.

10. JUPITER REPLACING SATURN. I think Saturn was seen by some of the ancients to leave the configuration. Jupiter then became visible in the same location atop the polar axis.
Here's a quote from the article. "I have privately speculated that the entire planetary configuration moving through a gaseous envelope extending perhaps several million miles from Jupiter. (And if so, the dynamic interaction of the participating planets with this medium must be a part of any discussion of the physics of planetary alignment!) Jupiter was originally hidden behind Saturn, subsequently to be 'born' as the rejuvenated or resurrected sun god following a great catastrophe in which the shared axis was disturbed and Saturn displaced from its polar position.(2)"

COMMENT: As I showed in a crude illustration at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/180/thread it's likely that Saturn left the Saturn configuration as the system was approaching Saturn's present orbit (from the outside), so that Saturn began to follow that circular orbit instead of the system's elliptical orbit. This left Jupiter visible where Saturn previously appeared to be. The Younger Dryas event with a conflagration etc likely occurred just before Saturn left. Debris from Saturn likely caused the Younger Dryas impacts, which formed the Carolina Bays and Nebraska basins, and killed most of the biosphere and megafauna of North America and Siberia etc. Jupiter then escorted Earth, Venus etc to the Earth's orbit before moving back out to Jupiter's present orbit. I want to find out when and how long Jupiter was the new god before it too departed. I haven't heard of myths about Jupiter's departure yet. I'll see what I can find. I suspect that Jupiter, Venus and maybe Mars remained in the system until Sumerian civilization was underway. The priestess said Venus deposited venom on the land. Perhaps she witnessed it. By the way, I'm suspecting that the Sodom and Gemorah event in the time of Abraham may have occurred during the "reign" of Jupiter. Cardona had written an article for Kronos magazine suggesting that the brimstone of that event was from Io, a moon of Jupiter, which is a very volcanic moon.