Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?
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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:41 pm

The point I made in my lost post was "cathode relative to what"?

Moon is cathode relative to Earth. Earth is cathode relative to the sun. Sun is cathode relative to the galactic circuit. Milky Way is cathode relative to the intergalactic circuit, etc. Or it could be the other way around.

Obviously this point is still being debated by the key EU proponents, but I think we all need to be willing to entertain the possibility that celestial objects act as both cathode and anode relative to different systems of differing electrical potential.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:32 am

Cathode Sun

Cathodes attract positive charge. Anodes attract negative charge. The Sun is net negative and so attracts positive charge and gives off negative charge. The interplanetary medium is net positive and the planets are net negative.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:09 am

4251

FUTURESCHOOL

I have Future School in the works at https://futureschool.boards.net

I have lesson assignments on Geology of the Earth at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/2/thread
At that link you can learn about Composition of the Earth, Formation of the Earth, and the possible Age of the Earth in great detail, based on Charles Chandler's findings. I think the Earth could be much younger than he reasons, but he seems to put a good upper limit on the age, i.e. under 400,000 years, if I recall rightly.

The 2nd lesson is on Rock Strata Formation, Gradualism vs Catastrophism, at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/31/thread
You might be surprised how simple it is to see that the strata could not have formed over millions of years.

The 3rd lesson is on Advanced Ancient Civilization at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/32/thread

RESOURCE
This is a great resource on Catastrophism and Myths: https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_query=
You can enter any word or phrase and find quotes from numerous Catastrophist publications.

GREAT FLOOD
It's not clear yet from mythology etc how the Great Flood came about or especially how the planets behaved during the chaos of that time period. It's apparent from Saturn Theory findings that Venus, Mars and Earth initially were moons of Saturn and that the Saturn system broke up. Venus and or Mars may have come catastrophically close to Earth during the unstable period of time when the Saturn system planets left the Saturn system and found stable orbits in the Solar system. Venus or Mars or the Moon seems to have orbited the Earth for about half a year on a highly elliptical orbit, when the tides caused the Great Flood. During the months-long flood, many impacts occurred. The tides caused sediments from the continental shelf to deposit sedimentary rock on the supercontinent. The impact craters are found throughout the geological column. Nearly all of the impacts found throughout the solar system may have formed at that time.

VENUS CATASTROPHISM
Did Venus cause the Great Flood? Here are some article titles at the above site that can be searched there.
_Falls of Blood from Venus
_On the Orientation of Ancient Temples and Other Anomalies
_When Was the Lunar Surface Last Molten?
_Venus Before Exodus
_Comets and the Bronze Age Collapse
_The Moon In Upheaval
_Magnetic Models of the Polar Configuration
_Jupiter God of Abraham
_The Birth of Athena
_Earth-Venus Contacts in the Late 3rd Millennium BC?
_Pterodactyls in the Mesozoic: A Flap in Time
_Physics, Astronomy and Chronology
_Comments: on the First Issue

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JP Michael
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Fri Apr 17, 2020 2:55 pm

Lloyd wrote: GREAT FLOOD
It's not clear yet from mythology etc how the Great Flood came about or especially how the planets behaved during the chaos of that time period.
The first part of this statement is somewhat disingenuous. Not a few of the myths explicitly name Saturn as the cause. Hence Cardona's book "Flare Star" in which he details these at length, not to mention Velikovsky's unpublished book on the same. It is clear the Great Flood began 7 days after Saturn went nova. It is a common feature of the myths: spectacular, mesmerising light for 7 days, originating from Saturn, then sudden destruction destroyed them all, except the 8 souls in the Ark.

The second part is right; the precise role of Mars and Venus (and the other planets, for that matter) does not become apparent until after the Deluge, which is why I am looking at the Deluge as the primary starting point for the vast majority of traditional cosmologies.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Apr 20, 2020 3:40 am

CARDONA'S HYPOTHESES

Hypotheses from Dwardu Cardona's book, Metamorphic Star
(Compare with Cardona Interview at https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =10&t=3824 )
I think Cardona considers most of the following to have occurred about 10,000 BP.

Hypothesis #1: SATURN BROWN DWARF: That the present giant gas planet we know by the name of Saturn had previously been a sub-brown dwarf star free floating in space outside the demarcation of the present Solar System.

Hypothesis #2: EARTH SATURN'S SATELLITE: That Earth was at that time a satellite of this proto-Saturnian sub-star which, because of its proximity, loomed large in the sky as a distinct disk larger than the present apparent size of the full Moon.

Hypothesis #3: SATURN'S CHAOS DISK: That, during this period, a nebulous entity, which we have conjectured to have been a circumstellar disk, surrounded the proto-Satumian primary in its equatorial plane. This nebulous cloud seems to have been what our ancient forefathers inter alia alluded to as Chaos.

Hypothesis #4: SATURN'S OCEAN DISK: During this same period, the proto-Satumian orb was described as having floated over an apparition which looked like an auroral sheet of eddying celestial water, a cosmic whirlpool of an ocean, which we conjecture to have been the same circumstellar disk.

Hypothesis #5: SOLITARY SATURN: That this proto-Satumian assemblage was the first, and for a time, the only visible celestial entity that could be seen in Earth's primordial sky.

Hypothesis #6: IMMOBILE SATURN: That, as seen from Earth, the proto-Saturnian primary did not rise or set, but remained visibly immobile at all times.

Hypothesis #7: SATURN POLE-STAR: That proto-Satum's immobility was due to the fact that Earth was stationed directly "beneath" proto-Saturn's south pole and that, from Earth, proto-Satum would have appeared to be permanently fixed in the north celestial sphere, the very place which is now occupied by the far more distant Pole Star. What this also means is that Earth and proto-Satum were linearly aligned with both of them sharing the same axis of rotation.

Hypothesis #8: PLASMA JET: That what appeared to be a slow-twirling narrow beam of tapering light connected the proto-Satumian orb to Earth's north polar region. This ray from above was a sustained plasma discharge in the form of Birkeland current, a scaled-down version, or the slowly deteriorating remnant, of a so-called plasma "jet," many of which are presently observed streaming from galactic and stellar objects, and as in fact have been detected emanating from brown dwarf stars.

Hypothesis #9: DARK ORIGINS: That Earth was originally engulfed in what our ancestors persistently referred to as darkness. This was an age which, despite its remoteness, ended up etching itself indelibly in human consciousness. It was an era during which the Sun, the Moon, and the stars were not yet visible in the sky. Proto-Saturn ruled alone. That this darkness was not total was also told by ancient man who well remembered the feeble light that proto-Satum shed on Earth.

Hypothesis #10: SATURN'S PLASMASPHERE: That this system was embedded in a plasmasphere that was centered on proto-Satum, the near opacity of which enabled proto-Satum's radiation to be reflected to all terrestrial latitudes.

Hypothesis #11: NO STARS: That proto-Satum's illumination, relatively feeble as it was, together with the plasmasphere's near opacity, were the means by which the stars were kept from visibility. The Sun, on the other hand, was still too far to be seen, while the Moon had not yet been captured.

Hypothesis #12: WARM EARTH: That Earth would have received enough heat to sustain life, which heat would have radiated directly from proto-Satum's close proximity above Earth's northern hemisphere. The southern latitudes would also have received sufficient warmth, even if a feebler light, from the radiation that would have been reflected off the inner surface of proto-Satum's plasmasphere within which Earth would have been enveloped. In the northern hemisphere, this indirect radiation would have added to the direct heat and light received from above Earth's northern pole. Thus, during this time, Earth's climatic environment would have been one without seasonal change, luxuriating in one single season of eternal spring, even though there would have been slightly different latitudinal temperatures. Tropical and/or sub-tropical flora and fauna were thus able to thrive in Earth's northern region, even within the present Arctic Circle, and the possibility exists that this flora and fauna originated in these very regions before migrating to more southerly latitudes.

Hypothesis #13: AURORAL GLACIATION: That the much more energetic dust-laden formations of what have now turned into auroral ovals were responsible for casting ribbons of lands, south of the Arctic and north of Antarctica, into perpetually colder climates which, through the ages, resulted in the miles-deep glaciation that account for Earth's series of ice ages.

Hypothesis #14: NO TIME MEASURES: That, due to proto-Saturn's immobility, and the absence of the Sun, ancient man had nothing at his disposal by which he could calculate the passage of time.

Hypothesis #15: PLASMASPHERE CLASHES: That, as the proto-Saturnian system drew closer to the present Sun's domain of influence, their plasmaspheres came in contact with each other, electrical potentials clashed, and cosmic sparks began to fly. Thus commenced a protracted series of rebounds, deviations, and crossovers of the respective plasma sheaths, with proto-Satum emitting flashes of radiating light and heat at each and every contact, while also emitting clouds of dust, some of which beclouded the terrestrial atmosphere.

Hypothesis #16: GLACIATION SERIES: It was the sudden heat released by proto-Satum's outbursts in this series of plasmaspheric interactions that was directly responsible for the string of interglacials toward the end of the Pleistocene epoch. The reversal back to cold at the end of each interglacial was mainly due to proto-Satum's own return close to its previous temperature, while also aided to an extent by its temporary shielding by the accumulated dust in Earth's atmosphere.

Hypothesis #17: SATURN FLARE-UP: That, eventually, proto-Satum succeeded in penetrating the Sun's heliosphere and, finding itself electrically imbalanced within this new domain, suffered a much more drastic disruption than its previous bursts of power.

Hypothesis #18: PLASMA JET INSTABILITY: That the first signs of this electrical imbalance were manifested by the jet-like Birkeland column which joined proto-Satum to Earth, which jet was seen to undergo a series of visible instabilities the likes of which mankind had never seen and which he commenced to reproduce in his sacred art down through the ages.

Hypothesis #19: PLASMA JET RETRACTION: That, following this series of awe-inspiring volatilities, the jet was seen to retract itself and disappear within the very proto-Satumian orb that had originally spewed it forth.

Hypothesis #20: SATURN BRIGHTENING: That, due to the disproportionate electrical energy between proto-Satum and the Sun, the former flared up in a glorious burst of light that belittled its previous flares, while it dispelled the gloom, an event that went down in the mytho-history of mankind as Day One.

Hypothesis #21: SATURN DUST: That this major proto-Satumian blast shed a vast amount of dust, belittling what it had shed in its previous minor outbursts, some of which dust was eventually captured in Earth's atmosphere due to gravitational attraction.

Hypothesis #22: SATURN'S RINGS: That this super flare-up managed to scatter most of the detritus that had been contained within proto-Satum's circumstellar disk, and that what remained formed a much less dense accumulation with a wide gap between its inner edge and the proto-Saturnian orb.

Hypothesis #23: ATMOSPHERIC LOSS: That the flare-up was also responsible for the blowing away of Earth's auroral toroids together with a portion of the terrestrial atmosphere.

Hypothesis #24: CONFLAGRATION: That immediately upon and due to proto-Satum's major flare-up, Earth and its inhabitants were subjected to an appalling heat-wave which caused worldwide forest fires while engulfing all and sundry in a tremendous sheet of cosmic radiation, including X-rays and other potentially harmful beams and particles.

Hypothesis #25: MAGNETIC FIELD INSTABILITY: That the proto-Saturnian system's encounter with the Sun resulted in the reversal of Earth's magnetic field - or, more correctly, its dipole - which was due to the combined reaction of the Sun's super-flare-like discharge together with proto-Satum's own flare-up. This culminated in a boost of the terrestrial field which would then have commenced to decay once more in its attempt to adjust to the Sun's own field of influence.

Hypothesis #26: EARTH'S ROTATION CHANGES: That, very much like the Sun's flares achieve at present on a much smaller scale, proto-Satum's flare-up braked Earth's rotational speed, with its former rate resuming not long after.

Hypothesis #27: OCEANIC INCURSION: That this temporary braking resulted in the oceans' incursion over large areas of the land as well as additional heat due to the friction between Earth's crustal layers which also caused tremendous tectonic activity including global volcanism, earthquakes, landslides, and various other upheavals.

Hypothesis #28: METEORIC BOMBARDMENT: That, together with the emitted dust, proto-Satum also expelled quantities of substantial rock-hard rubble some of which bombarded Earth, exploding in its atmosphere, the shards and bursts from which scarred the terrestrial surface in various localities with north-oriented craters some of which were later filled with water, plants, or both.

Hypothesis #29: MASS EXTINCTIONS: That the calamities incurred by Earth throughout these events were responsible for great loss of life among both beasts and man. Vast hordes of animals which had existed during the Ice Age were completely exterminated, never again to grace the land or the oceans they once inhabited.

Hypothesis #30: SURVIVAL: That, despite the above, some species, including some of the mammoths, did manage to survive in isolated pockets just as tribal units of mankind also did.

Hypothesis #31: RADIATION MUTATIONS: That the cosmic radiation released by proto-Saturn's flare-up would have also resulted in the birth of mutated offspring both among surviving animals and humankind, but that, with some possible exceptions, including racial diversions among humans, these mutations were not passed on to following generations.

Hypothesis #32: RAPID GLACIAL MELTING: That, due to the ensuing heat-wave, the glaciers of the Pleistocene Ice Age commenced to melt, thus raising oceanic levels all over the world, while causing further floods and mud slides. Previous glaciated areas were thus reclaimed and, in time, the greening of these regions added tremendously to the habitability of Earth's northern hemisphere.

Hypothesis #33: YOUNGER DRYAS COLD: Mainly due to proto-Saturn's return close to its previous cooler temperature, but partly aided by the enshrouding dust that had collected in the terrestrial atmosphere, Earth was once again plunged into a colder environment, that of the Younger Dryas, which was not, however, as freezingly cold as the Ice Age out of which it had emerged.

Hypothesis #34: CREATION ATTEMPTS: That this series of events was remembered by those whom it touched and passed on to their descendants as a number of aborted attempts at what became known as the Creation, with each attempt having been thwarted due to a re-accumulation of terrestrial ice.

Hypothesis #35: EARTH REWARMING: That, with proto-Saturn's dust settling on the land, Earth returned to warmth as suddenly as it had temporarily slipped back into the cold.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Mon Apr 20, 2020 6:30 am

Yeah, that's more like it Lloyd!

Now I do not personally agree with every aspect of all of these hypotheses (esp. elements of #20) or the supposed timing of them. Cardona's engagement with the Biblical accounts is exegetically poor and ofttimes exceeding selective.

I will have a more thorough analysis of the major differences between the Biblical and non-Biblical creation accounts in the coming months where I hope to highlight some of the key issues involved in Cardona's treatment of the ancient Hebrew creation accounts.

As I suggested earlier, I think the majority of Cardona's hypotheses have Deluvian/ post-Deluvian applications, pointing to a time when humanity was eyewitness of these things.

The same cannot be said of the Hebrew creation account which is explicit in its assertion that humanity did not exist on Day One (or two, or three, or four, or five), so immediately there is a contradiction with hypothesis #20. I have not read that chapter in detail so I do not know how, or if, Cardona attempts to resolve it.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Apr 21, 2020 2:36 pm

4400

CARDONA'S BOOKS

Cardona died in 2016, I think. His books are:
God Star, Flare Star, Primordial Star, Metamorphic Star, Newborn Star
available from https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/resources/
They're a bit expensive, so a few people may like to get them together and share.
Here are the contents of the 5 books (just the Chapter titles; I'll try to post the sections of each chapter later).

GOD STAR
--- I discussed God Star with Cardona at this post and some following https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =30#p44929
__Contents
_Chapter 1 Myths and Legends
_Chapter 2 Ancient Astronomical Lore
_Chapter 3 The Sun Star
_Chapter 4 The Sun of Night
_Chapter 5 Dead Suns
_Chapter 6 Primordial Satellite
_Chapter 7 Planetary Shuffle
_Chapter 8 The Solitary Deity
_Chapter 9 The Immobile God
_Chapter 10 The Polar Station
_Chapter 11 Testing the Model
_Chapter 12 In the Beginning
_Chapter 13 The Age of Darkness
_Chapter 14 The Dawn of Creation
_Chapter 15 The Timeless Era
_Chapter 16 The Interloping System
_Chapter 17 Life Beneath a Brown Dwarf Star
_Chapter 18 A World With One Season
_CHAPTER 19 Polar Wandering
_Chapter 20 The Axial Coupling
_Chapter 21 The Axis Mundi
_Chapter 22 Cosmic Genesis
__Epilogue
__Index 494

FLARE STAR
__Contents
__PART ONE THE DEEP FREEZE
_CHAPTER 1 THE FRIGID EARTH
_CHAPTER 2 THE MILANKOVITCH THEORY
_CHAPTER 3 ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESES
_CHAPTER 4 UNORTHODOX SCHEMES
__PART TWO THE SATURN THESIS
_CHAPTER 5 REITERATION
_CHAPTER 6 THE CONCEPT OF DEITY
_CHAPTER 7 THE BOREAL LOCUS (Boreal means Northern)
_CHAPTER 8 PROTO-SATURN
__PART THREE THE PRIMORDIAL MILIEU
_CHAPTER 9 PALEOLITHIC MAN
_CHAPTER 10 SETTING THE STAGE
_CHAPTER 11 THE CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK
_CHAPTER 12 LORD OF THE LINGAM
_PART FOUR THE FLARE-UP
_CHAPTER 13 PRELUDE TO CREATION
_CHAPTER 14 LET THERE BE LIGHT
_CHAPTER 15 EXPLODING STARS AND PLANETS
_CHAPTER 16 NARROWING THE GAP
_CHAPTER 17 MAGNETOSPHERIC UPHEAVAL
_CHAPTER 18 OUT OF THE FREEZE
__INDEX 514

PRIMORDIAL STAR
__Contents
__Part One In the Beginning
_Chapter 1 Ab Origine
_Chapter 2 Geogenesis
_Chapter 3 Geognosy
_Chapter 4 Stellar Flares
__Part Two Revolutions
_Chapter 5 A Thumbnail History of Gigantism
_Chapter 6 Mass and Gravity
_Chapter 7 Sudden Violence
_Chapter 8 Paradigms Lost
__Part Three The Toroids
_Chapter 9 Celestial Bands
_Chapter 10 Dusty Rings
_Chapter 11 Earth's Southern Pole
_Chapter 12 Plasma And All That
__Epilogue
__Index 359

METAMORPHIC STAR
__Contents
__PART ONE
_Chapter 1 Mythohistory
_Chapter 2 Theography
_Chapter 3 Ab Initio
_Chapter 4 Time Zero
_Chapter 5 Day One
__PART TWO
_Chapter 6 Blow Outs
_Chapter 7 The Interglacials
_Chapter 8 The Clovis Comet
_Chapter 9 Resetting the Record
_Chapter 10 Substellar Interactions
__PART THREE
_Chapter 11 Start of a New Era
_Chapter 12 Divine Colors
_Chapter 13 Heavenly Transitions
_Chapter 14 Celestial Unveilings
_Chapter 15 Serpentine Windings
_Epilogue
__Index 330

NEWBORN STAR
__Contents
__Part One
_Chapter 1 In the Beginning
_Chapter 2 The Ruin of Earlier Worlds
_Chapter 3 In Retrospect
_Chapter 4 Axial Polarity
_Chapter 5 Blowup
_Chapter 6 Meteorological Intensity
_Chapter 7 Climatic Repercussions
_Chapter 8 Territorial Infiltrations
_Chapter 9 Plasmatic Discharge
_Chapter 10 The Cosmogonic Egg
_Chapter 11 The Spiraling Enclosure
_Chapter 12 Ceremonial Celebrations
_Chapter 13 Orbital Development
_Chapter 14 Heavenly Multiplicity
_Chapter 15 The Sibitti
_Chapter 16 God's Primordial Dwelling
_Chapter 17 The Basis of Civilization
_Chapter 18 Culture and Agriculture
__Part Two
_Chapter 19 The Goddess
_Chapter 20 The Androgyne
_Chapter 21 Dea Caelestis
_Chapter 22 Hesiod Versus Homer
_Chapter 23 Indic Influences
_Chapter 24 Egyptian Interconnections
_Chapter 25 Near Eastern Confirmations
_Chapter 26 The Ba'alim
_Chapter 27 Lux Divina
_Chapter 28 Child of Saturn
_Chapter 29 The Septad
_Chapter 30 Plasmatic Pinches
__Index 465

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:13 pm

4455

Re-arranging Cardona's Material

I'll comment in my next post.

CARDONA'S HYPOTHESES
_ONE: ANCIENT SKY
#1: SATURN BROWN DWARF; #2: EARTH SATURN'S SATELLITE; #3: SATURN'S CHAOS DISK; #4: SATURN'S OCEAN DISK; #5: SOLITARY SATURN; #6: IMMOBILE SATURN; #7: SATURN POLE-STAR; #8: PLASMA JET; #9: DARK ORIGINS; #10: SATURN'S PLASMASPHERE; #11: NO VISIBLE STARS
_TWO: ANCIENT EARTH
#12: WARM EARTH; #13: AURORAL GLACIATION; #14: NO TIME MEASURES;
_THREE: SATURN FLARE-UP
#15: PLASMASPHERE CLASHES; #16: GLACIATION SERIES; #17: SATURN FLARE-UP; #18: PLASMA JET INSTABILITY; #19: PLASMA JET RETRACTION; #20: SATURN BRIGHTENING; #21: SATURN DUST; #22: SATURN'S RINGS;
_FOUR: RESULTING CATASTROPHES ON EARTH
#23: ATMOSPHERIC LOSS; #24: CONFLAGRATION; #25: MAGNETIC FIELD INSTABILITY; #26: EARTH'S ROTATION CHANGES; #27: OCEANIC INCURSION; #28: METEORIC BOMBARDMENT; #29: MASS EXTINCTIONS; #30: SURVIVAL; #31: RADIATION MUTATIONS; #32: RAPID GLACIAL MELTING; #33: YOUNGER DRYAS COLD; #34: CREATION ATTEMPTS; #35: EARTH REWARMING

HYPOTHESES IN DETAIL viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&p=1911#p1853

CARDONA'S BOOKS: GS: God Star, FS: Flare Star, PS: Primordial Star, MS: Metamorphic Star, NS: Newborn Star
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/resources/

GOD STAR
GS1 Myths and Legends; 2 Ancient Astronomical Lore; 3 The Sun Star; 4 The Sun of Night; 5 Dead Suns; 6 Primordial Satellite; 7 Planetary Shuffle; 8 The Solitary Deity; 9 The Immobile God; 10 The Polar Station; 11 Testing the Model; 12 In the Beginning; 13 The Age of Darkness; 14 The Dawn of Creation; 15 The Timeless Era; 16 The Interloping System; 17 Life Beneath a Brown Dwarf Star; 18 A World With One Season; 19 Polar Wandering; 20 The Axial Coupling; 21 The Axis Mundi; 22 Cosmic Genesis; Epilogue

FLARE STAR
__PART ONE: THE DEEP FREEZE
1 THE FRIGID EARTH; 2 THE MILANKOVITCH THEORY; 3 ALTERNATIVE HYPOTHESES; 4 UNORTHODOX SCHEMES
__PART TWO: THE SATURN THESIS
5 REITERATION; 6 THE CONCEPT OF DEITY; 7 THE BOREAL [NORTHERN] LOCUS; 8 PROTO-SATURN
__PART THREE: THE PRIMORDIAL MILIEU
9 PALEOLITHIC MAN; 10 SETTING THE STAGE; 11 THE CIRCUMSTELLAR DISK; 12 LORD OF THE LINGAM
_PART FOUR: THE FLARE-UP
13 PRELUDE TO CREATION; 14 LET THERE BE LIGHT; 15 EXPLODING STARS AND PLANETS; 16 NARROWING THE GAP; 17 MAGNETOSPHERIC UPHEAVAL; 18 OUT OF THE FREEZE

PRIMORDIAL STAR
__Part One In the Beginning
1 Ab Origine; 2 Geogenesis; 3 Geognosy; 4 Stellar Flares
__Part Two Revolutions
5 A Thumbnail History of Gigantism; 6 Mass and Gravity; 7 Sudden Violence; 8 Paradigms Lost
__Part Three The Toroids
9 Celestial Bands; 10 Dusty Rings; 11 Earth's Southern Pole; 12 Plasma And All That; Epilogue

METAMORPHIC STAR
__PART ONE
1 Mythohistory; 2 Theography; 3 Ab Initio; 4 Time Zero; 5 Day One
__PART TWO
6 Blow Outs; 7 The Interglacials; 8 The Clovis Comet; 9 Resetting the Record; 10 Substellar Interactions
__PART THREE
11 Start of a New Era; 12 Divine Colors; 13 Heavenly Transitions; 14 Celestial Unveilings; 15 Serpentine Windings; Epilogue

NEWBORN STAR
__Part One
1 In the Beginning; 2 The Ruin of Earlier Worlds; 3 In Retrospect; 4 Axial Polarity; 5 Blowup; 6 Meteorological Intensity; 7 Climatic Repercussions; 8 Territorial Infiltrations; 9 Plasmatic Discharge; 10 The Cosmogonic Egg; 11 The Spiraling Enclosure; 12 Ceremonial Celebrations; 13 Orbital Development; 14 Heavenly Multiplicity; 15 The Sibitti; 16 God's Primordial Dwelling; 17 The Basis of Civilization; 18 Culture and Agriculture
__Part Two
19 The Goddess; 20 The Androgyne; 21 Dea Caelestis; 22 Hesiod Versus Homer; 23 Indic Influences; 24 Egyptian Interconnections; 25 Near Eastern Confirmations; 26 The Ba'alim; 27 Lux Divina; 28 Child of Saturn; 29 The Septad; 30 Plasmatic Pinches

2012 Cardona Interview
Saturn Theory: https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =10&t=3824
God Star: https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =30#p44929
Last edited by Lloyd on Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Apr 24, 2020 1:36 pm

COMMENTS ON CARDONA'S MODEL

CARDONA: FLARE-UP AT HELIOSPHERE, BREAKUP AT ASTEROID BELT?
I think Cardona figured that
1) the Saturn system arrived at the Sun's heliosphere about 10,000 years ago, at the time of the Younger Dryas,
2) it skipped around on the surface of the heliosphere for quite some time, causing the ice age on Earth,
3) and then it finally penetrated the heliosphere and had a major flare-up, which caused a global conflagration (forest fires) on Earth, along with other catastrophes.
I think he figured that
4) the Saturn system breakup and the Great Flood occurred about 5,000 years ago, so it took the Saturn system about 5,000 years to go from the heliosphere boundary to the place of the break-up. I don't know yet if he figured the breakup took place at the asteroid belt or where.

LLOYD: FLOOD BEFORE CONFLAGRATION AND ICE AGE
_ICE AGE: I don't think the ice age was caused by the Saturn system skipping on the heliospheric boundary, but by the continents moving north and south due to an impact that caused rapid continental drift. He may be right that the open oval auroras attracted dust that caused glaciation in the north temperate zone.
_SATURN SYSTEM: Earth seems to have been part of the Saturn system, which may have come from outside of the Solar system as he and others think, but the heliospheric boundary doesn't seem to be any kind of barrier that the system would bounce off of and skip on the surface of.
_GREAT FLOOD FIRST: Since the Great Flood deposited the mile-thick sedimentary rock strata on the continents and since glaciation occurred on top of the sedimentary strata, the Flood must have occurred before the Saturn flare-up during the Younger Dryas. The best evidence seems to show that the Flood occurred about 4,500 years ago, so the Younger Dryas event must have occurred somewhat later.
_FLARE-UP: I'm curious to see if it's likely that the Conflagration was caused by the Saturn flare-up and if that's when the Saturn system broke up a little more than 4,000 years ago.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Fri Apr 24, 2020 2:55 pm

Good to see you're challenging some of Cardona's conclusions!

I'm still not convinced by the impact continental migration hypothesis, but I also agree that it is unlikely that proto-Saturn "bounced" off the sun's heliospheric boundary for some millenia before finally entering it.

As I have remarked before, the more I read the more I become convinced that creation myths, excepting the Biblical one, are post-Deluge and relate to the reconnection of the axis mundi over the following centuries before the eventual breakup of the Saturnian system around the time of Abraham. Earth, along with Venus and Mars, were thrown into temporarily eccentric orbits which caused several ice ages of differing severity in addition to repetitive cataclysms as recounted through both Biblical and secular histories. All three planets had stabilised their orbits to the present ones by ~700 BCE.

Lloyd i wouldnt mind hearing your thoughts on some of the stuff Lyndon has been talking about in the Plasma Redshift thread. Creationists make a big show of the 'fact' that the universe is expanding, supposedly in confirmation of various proof texts of the same (will get citations tomorrow). The falsification of space expansion would be seen as a major blow, not only to LCDM but most of standard creationism.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:18 pm

4492

UNIVERSE NOT EXPANDING

Okay, JP, the following proves that redshift is not due to an expanding universe. Redshift is due to the Compton Effect, not usually the Doppler Effect. The Compton Effect involves ionization and plasma. Even redshift on the Sun is due to the Compton Effect, primarily.

High redshift quasar in front of a low redshift galaxy
http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... =15#p45803

Other references mostly to the same quasar
https://www.google.com/search?q=site:th ... 66&bih=655

"Big Bang is Wrong" Kierein
- (Radio Waves Cause Gravity) https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... hp?t=16870
- Also: https://www.google.com/search?q=%22big+ ... 66&bih=614
(Caution if opening the Angelfire site. If you click on it, it may open up a bunch of other webpages. You can copy it okay without clicking on the page. And I think you can click on the links without any problems.)

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Apr 26, 2020 3:18 am

COMPARING CATASTROPHIST MODELS

I have a thread where I started comparing models at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... crollTo=30
These are the Catastrophists whose models I'm comparing and their main claims (but I may add more or drop some).
1. IV __ Immanuel Velikovsky: Earth moon of Saturn; Saturn nova; Venus came from Jupiter; Earth encounter with Venus and Mars
2. RD __ Robert Driscoll: Earth encounter with Venus?
3. JA __ Jack Ackerman: Jupiter collision; Venus came from Jupiter; Earth encounter with Venus and Mars; Mercury came from Mars
4. GG __ Gary Gilligan: Venus came from Jupiter; Earth encounter with Venus and Mars; Mercury came from Mars
5. GH __ Gunnar Heinsohn: History is about 1,000 years younger than officially claimed
6. JC __ Jno Cook: (JP, or anyone, do you know his main claims?)
7. DC __ Dwardu Cardona: Saturn novas rained debris on Earth; Venus & Mars became visible on face of Saturn; Saturn system breakup caused Great Flood and arrival of the Moon
8. OC __ Michael Oard Creationists: Noah's Flood greatly changed Earth's geology and biosphere
9. JB __ John Baumgardner: (similar to Oard)
10. WB __ Walter Brown: Noah's Flood and continental drift occurred when 10-mile deep underground chambers broke up
11. MF __ Mike Fischer: supercontinent formed from granite impact; impacts produced Great Flood; asteroid broke up supercontinent
12. LK __ Lloyd Kinder (Me): 1) The Sun & planets formed from one or more interstellar filament implosions (Charles Chandler), 2) and a granitic asteroid impact formed Earth's supercontinent (CC, MF); 3) Saturn was a brown dwarf star that flared near Earth's present orbit, outgassing hydrogen causing its then lost planets, Venus, Mars, Earth etc to circularize their new orbits rapidly (RD); 4) the new Moon's initially elliptical orbit raised Earth tidal waves causing Noah's Flood (JB); 5) an asteroid impact split the supercontinent, causing rapid continental drift near the end of the Flood, extreme volcanism caused the ice age (MF); 6) impacts on the ice sheet caused megafauna extinctions in the Americas etc (Richard Firestone, Antonio Zamora); 7) advanced civilization was set back by the catastrophes (Charles Ginenthal, Jonathan Gray)
13. M __ Moses (First name John or Peter?): Mars interacted with Venus and Earth at different times; Ocean basins and mountain ranges were formed by electrical forces supplied from ...(?)
14. JP __ JP Michael (First name John or Joshua?): Saturn, Jupiter, Venus, Mars & Moon etc. were involved in Earth cataclysms

QUESTIONS FOR EACH MODEL
These are the main questions I hope will be answered.
(A. What is the main claim of each theory? Partly answered above.)
B. How and when did the Earth form?
C. How and when did the largely granitic/sedimentary continents and the largely basaltic ocean basins form?
D. How and when did sedimentary rock strata form?
E. How and when did mountains form?
F. What Earth cataclysms occurred and when?
G. Which space objects caused which of the cataclysms and how?

Everyone is welcome to suggest other questions you'd like answered too.

SOME POTENTIAL ANSWERS

7. Cardona
B. Earth: ? formed from Saturn from Sagittarius dwarf galaxy
8. Oard
B. Earth: 6-7k via God's creation
9. Baumgardner
B. Earth: 6-7k via God's creation
10. Brown
B. Earth: 6-7k via God's creation
11. Fischer
B. Earth: 6k-xM via ?
12. Kinder
B. Earth: 7k-300M from interstellar filament implosion
13. Moses
B. Earth: ?k Earth would have been where the asteroid belt is now along with one or two other planets, likely Mars and possibly Ganymede
14. JP Michael
B. Earth: Fiat Creation Ex-Nihilo 4175 BCE , ±50 years.

7. Cardona
C. Supercontinent: ?
8. Oard
C. Supercontinent: 6-7k via God's creation
9. Baumgardner
C. Supercontinent: 6-7k via God's creation
10. Brown
C. Supercontinent: 6-7k via God's creation
11. Fischer
C. Supercontinent: 6k-xM via large granite impactor
12. Kinder
C. Supercontinent: 7k-300M from granitic asteroid impact
13. Moses
C. Supercontinent:
14. JP Michael
C. Supercontinent: 4175 BCE initial creation (granitic?); 2519 BCE, ±9 years, total destruction/reformation during Noah's Flood to present continental arrangement.

7. Cardona
D. Strata: 20k+-5k Saturn nova & debris fall; 5k Great Flood
8. Oard
D. Strata: 4-5k via Noah's Flood
9. Baumgardner
D. Strata: 4-5k via Noah's Flood
10. Brown
D. Strata: 4-5k via Noah's Flood
11. Fischer
D. Strata: 5-15k via Great Flood via meteor impacts
12. Kinder
D. Strata: 4-5k from Great Flood sedimentation
13. Moses
D. Strata: ?k Ocean basins were carved out by EDM and the geological column was formed from that material and possibly material from another planet
14. JP Michael
D. Strata: 2519 BCE, ±9 years, for primary global deposition of sedimentary layers during Noah's Flood. Secondary and tertiary localised depositions during subsequent smaller cataclysms via quadruple process of waterborne (tsunami) sedimentary deposition, ionic wind deposition, igneous/volcanic basalt deposition and localised electroplasma machining.

7. Cardona
E. Mountains: 20k+-5k continental drift via Saturn flares
8. Oard
E. Mountains: 4-5k via Noah's Flood
9. Baumgardner
E. Mountains: 4-5k via Noah's Flood
10. Brown
E. Mountains: 4-5k via Noah's Flood
11. Fischer
E. Mountains: centuries after Great Flood via continental drift via asteroid impact
12. Kinder
E. Mountains: 4-5k from rapid continental drift
13. Moses
E. Mountains: The mountains formed after the Earth left the asteroid belt and went on a very elliptical orbit where it interacted with at least another planet and the thunderbolts produced in such an interaction lifted up curved to linear sections of land or retarded the spin of the Earth which resulted in some sections of the Earth 'running into' neighbouring sections
14. JP Michael
E. Mountains: Unknown initial creation conditions; 2518 BCE, ±9 years, for primary post-flood erosional remnants from a combination of abating floodwaters, volcanic eruption, electrical/ionic wind machining and continental compression/uplift. Secondary and tertiary mountain-forming/destroying episodes in subsequent smaller catastrophes.

7. Cardona
F. Cataclysms: 10k Saturn nova & debris fall; 5k Great Flood & the Moon
7. Cardona
G. Catalysts: Saturn (brown dwarf star) flare; Saturn's and electrical polar column departure

8. Oard
F. Cataclysms: 4-5k Noah's Flood
8. Oard
G. Catalysts: God's wrath via meteor impacts

9. Baumgardner
F. Cataclysms: 4-5k Noah's Flood
9. Baumgardner
G. Catalysts: God's wrath via meteor impacts & orbiting body

10. Brown
F. Cataclysms: 4-5k Noah's Flood
10. Brown
G. Catalysts: God's wrath via breakup of Earth's internal sub-hydroplate chambers

11. Fischer
F. Cataclysms: 5-15k Great Flood with impacts; later continental drift impact, flooding & mountain uplift
11. Fischer
G. Catalysts: meteors and asteroids

12. Kinder
F. Cataclysms: 4-5k: 3) planetary near-collision violence; 4) Flood; 5) rapid continental drift; 6) ice sheet impacts and floods
12. Kinder
G. Catalysts: 3) Venus, Mars etc debris; 4) Moon and meteors; 5) asteroid; 6) meteors

13. Moses
F. Cataclysms: Toward the end of ice ages Mars moved between Venus and Earth near their present locations, possibly becoming a moon of both at times; Noah's flood occurred around this time
13. Moses
G. Catalysts: Mars via electrical interactions (EDM etc)
13. Moses
+D. Asteroids were from the same material
13. Moses
+E. The bible starts after this

14. JP Michael
F. Cataclysms:
4175-4045 - Adam's Fall from Eden?
2519 BCE - Noah's Flood.
~2100 BCE - Sodom and Gomorrah.
~2000 BCE - Jacob's Ladder.
1492 BCE - Exodus of Israelites.
1440 BCE - Invasion of Canaan.
1440-800 BCE - Intermittent, cyclic catastrophism.
Feb 27th 747 BCE - Raash of King Uzziah.
~702 BCE - Last Earth-Mars Encounter?
14. JP Michael
G. Catalysts: Saturn (Noah's Flood); Saturn? (Sodom & Gomorrah); Solar Plasma Current (Jacob's Ladder); Saturn, Jupiter, Venus, Mars & Moon (Exodus); Venus (Invasion); Mars, Venus (Intermittent period); Mars (Uzziah); Mars (Final); Venus, Mars (Future)

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:43 am

Lloyd wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:18 pm
Redshift is due to the Compton Effect, not usually the Doppler Effect. The Compton Effect involves ionization and plasma. Even redshift on the Sun is due to the Compton Effect, primarily.
It is Lyndon's argument (if you didn't read it already you can find it here, especially the papers cited in the OP) is that as light traverses the intergalactic medium it is absorbed and re-emitted by a crystalline Wigner lattice of electrons. The loss of energy for the photon by this passage across the IGM causes it to be redshifted with no blurring, contra the Compton effect.

Now it turns out that creationism has a mixed bag of views as to whether space is (present tense) expanding, but some creationist positions require an expansion on day 4 when God populated the raqia ("firmament") with stars, galaxies and planets, etc. John Harnett (CMI) argues for a singular expansion event on day 4, followed by a static universe thereafter.[1] Jim Melnick has questioned Harnett's deductions from the Biblical passages, arguing that Harnett's conclusion that the Bible explicitly forbids continuing space expansion need not have followed from exegesis of the relevant texts alone and that a more 'paused' approach should be taken.[2]

I think creationists typically reject continuing space expansion simply because it is a fundamental necessity of the atheistic Big Bang expanding universe: if existence began as an infintesimally small nothing that exploded outwards, it should still be expanding out into the eternal nothingness still today. A singular episode of expansion could cease if an Intelligent Mind ordered it to do so in the creation model, like unfolding a tent cover until it is in position and it remains that way, as many of the Biblical citations put it (eg. Ps 104:2; Isa 40:22).

[1] J. Harnett, "Cosmologicalexpansion in a creationist cosmology." Journal of Creation 19(3):96-102; "Does the Bible really describe expansion of the universe?" Journal of Creation 25(2):125–127, August 2011; see also "Does observational evidence indicate the universe is expanding?—part 1: the case for time dilation," Journal of Creation 25(3):109–114, December 2011, and "Does observational evidence indicate the universe is expanding?—part 2: the case against expansion," Journal of Creation 25(3):115–120, December 2011.
[2] J. Melnick, "Understanding ‘stretching of the heavens’ in Scripture—a call for balance," Journal of Creation 31(1):66-72, April 2017.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Apr 28, 2020 5:08 pm

I think John Kierein told me last year that the supposed blurring that is claimed would occur with the Compton Effect is false. He explained why, but I didn't understand well. I'd have to look it up or ask him again about that. I think he's more authoritative than most on these issues.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JP Michael » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:46 pm

Compton effect seems to apply to a single photon interacting with a single electron in an atom at rest (0 K?). This condition is generally not met in space, where many electrons and atomic nuclei are ionised plasmas.

Lyndon's NTL through crystalline lattices seems like an interesting alternative. What needs further work is how interconnected galaxy-quasars, as highlighted by Halton Arp, can have such radically different redshifts even though they are theoretically the same distance away.

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