Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[Lloyd]

22588

VENUS DIDN'T STEAL MARS' ATMOSPHERE?

PS, I just found that Cardona seems to have doubted Talbott's above idea that Venus appeared oval-shaped when the Saturn system started to become unstable. It's in his article, The Evolution of the Cosmogonic Egg in Aeon III:5 (May 1994), a catastrophist journal. I only read a brief part of it, but he gave reasons for doubting that Venus should have appeared oval-shaped. The title suggests that it was Saturn that was oval or egg-shaped at least for a time. So far, I'm not finding any solid leads about what happened to Jupiter, Venus and Mars as the Saturn system broke up. A smoking gun would be nice to find. I guess Osiris was Saturn when Saturn died and looked like a mummy. I hope to find evidence of a transition from Saturn to Jupiter. I'm still working here: https://futureschool.boards.net/post/182/thread

Here's an interesting contradiction of Talbott from Catastrophism.com in a search for "Jupiter replace Saturn.
The Opening of The Mouth Ritual - Part II [Aeon]
... believes Osiris was Saturn. [69] Instead, he now surmises that Osiris was actually Jupiter, which planet replaced Saturn behind which it had been shielded from mortal eyes. To him, this change of polar planets constituted the re-born sun-god. My main objection, here, is that one cannot ignore the unlikely celestial dynamics involved in having Jupiter replace Saturn in a new polar configuration with Venus, Mars and Earth still aligned below it. How could such a massive celestial body as Saturn get out of the line-up so easily without disrupting the other bodies? More importantly, how could Saturn have then disappeared entirely, as it must have done for observers not to see that it

[moses]

The Cosmogonic Egg was the magnetosphere of some planet, probably Venus. Thus when the magnetotail is pointing at Earth or away from Earth.

Cheers, Mo

[Lloyd]

22797

PLASMASPHERES

The Cosmogonic Egg was the magnetosphere of some planet, probably Venus. Thus when the magnetotail is pointing at Earth or away from Earth. Cheers, Mo

I doubt if magnetospheres or plasmaspheres would be visible. The heliospheric current sheet and planetary magnetospheres and the heliospheric plasmasphere are not visible. The only thing that seems to be visible is helmet streamers from the Sun during solar eclipses.

THE ILIAD & THE END OF THE GOLDEN AGE?

To find more info from myths on what may have happened to Jupiter and when it happened, I'm studying Thoth issues, right now "Heroes of the Iliad", By David Talbott at https://www.saturniancosmology.org/file ... 998.14.txt (Thoth back issues are at https://www.saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/ ). Dave said:

Velikovsky argued that Homer's narrative describes tribal conflicts on Earth at a time when the planets Venus and Mars moved on catastrophic courses, appearing to battle in the sky. At the outset of my own research, I was eager to consider this possibility. But soon a quite different possibility emerged. Here was my conclusion: there is no local history whatsoever in the poet's narrative! The entire story of the "Trojan War" is a localization of a much more ancient memory - the earthshaking celestial conflagration called the "wars of the gods".

In these posts earlier in this thread https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =315#p3124 and https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =315#p3127 I mentioned in Comments that "Homer in the Baltic" shows that the Trojans and Greeks actually battled in Troy, Finland when the climate was warmer there. It appears that the war occurred much earlier than is usually thought, i.e. about 2,300 BC. So Dave seems to have been wrong when he said the above. So the Trojan War story may actually provide useful info about the planets and the time when Jupiter had replaced Saturn at the polar axis.

Commenting on the characters in the Iliad, Dave Talbott said:

In truth, there is not a shred of historical evidence that such personalities originated as flesh and blood figures.

Very few names of mortals from 2300 BC are still known, so that wouldn't be surprising, but I agree that the Iliad characters do sound more like gods/planets,etc than mortals. But whatever mortals actually took part in any of the Iliad and Odyssey events may have simply been replaced by story-tellers such as Homer with gods/planets,etc.

[JP Michael]

I doubt if magnetospheres or plasmaspheres would be visible. The heliospheric current sheet and planetary magnetospheres and the heliospheric plasmasphere are not visible. The only thing that seems to be visible is helmet streamers from the Sun during solar eclipses.

No, Lloyd. They're not visible right now, because their plasma is currently in dark mode. You're assuming that because they're dark mode now, therefore they've always been in 'dark mode' (and always will be). This is a fallacious assumption and removing it will open up many new avenues of discovery regarding plasma cosmology and mythology.

[moses]

"I doubt if magnetospheres or plasmaspheres would be visible. The heliospheric current sheet and planetary magnetospheres and the heliospheric plasmasphere are not visible." Lloyd

I think that the whole EU can agree that things were much more electrical in the ancient past. And especially those people that envisage a Saturn System.

Cheers,
Mo

[Lloyd]

22935

SOME CIVILIZATION CAME FROM THE NORTH

The Arctic remained warm after the Great Flood, due to warmth from Saturn on the North polar axis. The Trojan War apparently occurred in northern Europe around 2,300 BC, probably at the time that the Saturn system began to break up. Maybe the war between the gods/planets/Titans inspired the Trojan War. I posted comments on HOMER'S ILIAD & ODYSSEY at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/185/thread - It's a copy of Homer in the Baltic, Summary by Felice Vinci at http://www.centrostudilaruna.it/homer-i ... mmary.html - Sumeria, Egypt and Tiahuanaco likely existed at the same time as the Trojan War participants. The Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations were likely started by some of the same people, when the climate turned cold after the Saturn system breakup, during the Younger Dryas event, when many of the northerners migrated south to the Mediterranean. People who remained in northern Europe became the Vikings, Danes, Germans etc.

TALBOTT ON SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP 1997

The following comes from Symbols of an Ancient Sky: Slide Presentation & Notes - by David Talbott (KRONIA, Beaverton, Oregon, 1997) Reviewed by Pam Hanna.
Her notes were in numerical order, but I've rearranged them here to show what I think is the proper chronological order. Comments in brackets are mine.

1_Beginning with the great Golden Age of the Gods, traditions mention a motionless creator god [[Saturn]] at the celestial pole.
3_A glorious mother goddess [[Venus]], described as the radiance of the God, is contained within [[or in front of]] him as consort or daughter.
4_And a son [[Mars]] was within the womb of the mother.
5_It is a timeless era of abundance, radiance, and harmony [[after the Great Flood and before the Younger Dryas event]].
20_the gas giant Saturn erupted,
19_Venus was swept off its course,
6_a great upheaval disturbs this timeless epoch to cause the great goddess [[Venus]] to rage out of control, sweeping the heavens [[the region around Saturn]] with her fiery hair, or a broom, or her angry tail [[comet-like tail]].
7_She [[Venus]] is looking for vengeance or lamenting throughout creation, trying to recover the dismembered limbs of the lost god [[Saturn]] -- her husband, her father, her son [[NOT her son]].
2_This was the time of "creation." Luminous material, "primeval matter," was spewed from the creator's central eye-heart-soul [[Venus]] to form a cosmic dwelling [[Ouroboros]] atop the great mountain [[polar column]] of the gods with its twin peaks [[Saturn's sunlit crescent]].
10_The war of the gods, chaos-monsters [[]]Venus' tail]], the displacement or death of the great god himself [[Saturn]] who [[Jupiter]] hurls his thunderbolts from heaven -- and even [[Saturn]] swallows his own children.
8_A contender [[Mars]] enters -- a warrior, a hero, a brother, a father [[NOT a father]], an enemy, a monster.
9_The lines become blurred. And then doomsday.
18_This configuration evolved in a highly dramatic way, as gases and other material stretched between the planets which interacted electrically with one another, producing periods of great instability and catastrophe.
11_At this point, it appears that the warrior hero [[Mars]] intercedes. Pushing the great god [[Saturn]] back -- or contending with a monstrous other [[Venus' tail]] 21_and, under Earth's gravitational influence, Mars ended up losing a portion of its atmosphere, oceans and surface material.
22_The flux of this Martian debris, as it stretched toward Earth, was seen in the terrestrial sky as a tapered turbulent swath which went down in myth, inter alia, as the world pillar, the world mountain, and/or the axis mundi [[polar column]].
23_In the myths, Mars and his counterparts [[not Mars but a protrusion from the bottom of Mars]] are also symbolized as a dagger, a post, a stake, a peg, a pin, a pointed beard, a protruding tongue, a single tooth, a plow, a spade, a sword, all of which relate to the appearance of the planet and its stream of debris.
12_He himself [[Mars]] falls to [[toward]] Earth. Sometimes considered an interloper, sometimes a savior, his celestial actions seem to have brought about a welcome respite.
14_The rain of fire, the perpetual winter, the waters of the great flood, all the calamities that the gods had caused in their fray, came to an end.
16_ Jupiter now became the largest planet in the sky initially hidden behind Saturn.
13_The great gods receded to become the pinpoints of light seen in the present night sky.
15_Order was restored. But it is a new order. A bright sun now moved across the sky; the motionless sun at the pole was gone; and the Golden Age came to an end.

COMMENT: Line 13 says the gods receded, but I don't know if any myths actually say anything to that effect, so I'll try to find out if any do. Line 16 mentions Jupiter, but Jupiter probably was involved earlier. I put that it was Jupiter that hurled thunderbolts. I don't know if Saturn did as well. I hope to get details of the departure of Saturn and its replacement with Jupiter. Egypt and Sumer seem likeliest to have those, but maybe the Iliad etc may have something too.

[Lloyd]

23064

JUPITER, SUCCESSOR TO SATURN, IN MYTHS

LABYRINTH AND FORTRESS OF THE GODS, by Dave Talbott
Thoth Vol IV, No 10: June 15, 2000 [Journals] [Thoth]
https://www.saturniancosmology.org/file ... otiv10.txt
_Many themes relating to the terrible goddess and the ordeal, initiation, or rebirth of the hero occur in association with the first appearance of Jupiter. In one way or another the motifs of swallowing, cavernous hiding place, wrapping or winding, binding, and imprisonment run through all of the accounts relating to Jupiter's emergence as sovereign power.
[[I hope to get more into this later.]]

A UNIFIED THEORY, By Dave Talbott
Thoth Vol IV, No 13: Aug 31, 2000
https://www.saturniancosmology.org/file ... otiv13.txt
__REJUVENATED SOVEREIGN
_Lastly, there is the compelling personality of the dying and resurrected or transformed god-king, whose return to life is reflected in the dramas of the ancient New Year. As a global symbol, the "New Year" recalls the passing from one age to another, a remembrance often celebrated annually but on many other schedules as well. Though his identity is inseparably tied to the Universal Monarch, the resurrected god nevertheless emerges in distinction from that god as his son. He is simultaneously a younger version, and the rejuvenated form of his father, and his appearance or "reappearance" is synonymous with the renewal of a world which had fallen into darkness and discord. Such appears to be the underlying character of the Egyptian Osiris, Akkadian Marduk; Persian Ahura Mazda; Norse Balder; Hebrew Yahweh; Phoenician Bel, Greek Zeus, Roman Jupiter. This archetypal, renewed god will frequently appear as a more passive figure in contrast to the mother goddess and warrior-hero personalities, both of whom are highly active in the break between world ages and are typically involved directly in the episodes leading to the sovereign god's transfiguration or renewal.
_It is common in our time to represent the coming of the New Year as the departure of the elder "Father Time" -- along with the emergence of the ever-young or new-born babe or "child" of the New Year. We are simply extending an ancient tradition whose meaning we have forgotten.
_The rejuvenated sovereign is the planet Jupiter, not visible in the illustrated phase (our first snapshot) because it was hidden behind Saturn, but becoming visible with the disruption of the collinear system, and emerging as the apparent re-birth of the original sovereign. Indeed, the identities of Jupiter and Saturn are so intertwined that we are really dealing with two aspects of the same mythical figure--the god-king's original form as Saturn, and his renewed and transformed state as Jupiter. Mythically, the younger Saturn is Jupiter, and the elder Jupiter is Saturn.

THE ILIAD
I found these two versions of the Iliad online.
ILIAD: JUPITER = JOVE
http://classics.mit.edu/Homer/iliad.html
ILIAD: JUPITER = ZEUS
https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PIT ... Ilhome.php
_In the first one, Jupiter is apparently called Jove; in the second, Zeus.

SON OF ANU
https://www.ancient.eu/Anu/
_The only deity who had access to Anu was his son Enlil who gradually took on his father's characteristics and power. Even after Enlil became more popular, however, Anu continued to be venerated throughout the country. In the city of Uruk, where Inanna was the patron deity, Anu was honored by a large temple which continued in operation from c. 2000 BCE to c. 150 BCE and served as an astronomical observatory and library.
[[So far I can't tell from this if Enlil was Mars or Jupiter]]

[Lloyd]

23163

SATURN FLARE, POLAR COLUMN, PERATT'S PAPER

The brief discussions of magnetospheres and plasmaspheres above led me to do some study online. Charles Chandler has two papers that have some bearing on what might be required for visibility of astronomical phenomena. One is Blackbody Radiation at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=10522 . The other is Light Curves at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=18943 . However, Peratt's paper, Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity Part II: Directionality and Source, is probably more relevant, at https://www.plasmauniverse.info/downloa ... 4-2007.pdf . This paper is pretty well-known by members of this forum, but I haven't looked at it in depth until now, and will try to do so soon. But just skimming through it is enough to tell that the theory is highly probable. Peratt says a solar wind 2 or 3 orders of magnitude stronger than the present would be sufficient to produce the effects shown in petroglyphs. I don't see a direct connection to the Saturn configuration yet, but I think a Saturn Flare could have produced the amount of energy needed to produce the effects. Peratt said the direction that the effects were seen was toward the South, so that doesn't conform with the Saturn theory, except that I think Cardona said Saturn was likely seen to depart from the configuration in a southerly direction, so maybe Saturn flared when it moved south. I can also date the event as after the Great Flood, because the continents were not separate yet before the Flood and did not move apart from an asteroid impact until late during the Flood event (Peratt's paper shows petroglyph locations based on the present day, rather than where they were before rapid continental drift occurred). So the high-energy solar wind event theorized in Peratt's paper likely occurred during the Younger Dryas event a few hundred years after the Flood. I hope to read the paper more thoroughly tomorrow.

[moses]

Peratt:
He assumes electric current from the Sun, not from planets.
Perhaps datings are wrong and all petroglyphs were made at the same time in one event.
Dating leached pigment is through carbon dating and so of not much use.
Only in the South suggests a planet coming from the South whereas a Sun effect should be seen at both poles.

To me the petroglyphs could be from Venus or Mars approaching Earth from the south.
Cheers,
Mo

[Lloyd]

23441

PETROGLYPHS PROVE AN ANCIENT INTENSE AURORA EVENT

Here are links to 2 of Peratt's 3 papers on petroglyphs and ancient Intense Auroras.

Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity
https://plasmauniverse.info/downloads/P ... quityZ.pdf

Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity Part II: Directionality and Source
https://www.plasmauniverse.info/downloa ... 4-2007.pdf

The following is from Part II.
[PETROGLYPHS DEPICT INTENSE AURORAS]
_The striking similarity of petroglyphs to plasma experiments would indicate that they are reproductions or parts of reproductions of intense electrical phenomena, an obvious high-energy visible source that would be external to the Earth, such as the solar-wind aurora we observe today. However, laboratory experiments, when compared to ancient recordings, suggest the occurrence of an intense aurora, as might be produced if the solar wind had increased between one and two orders of magnitude, millennia ago.
[OUTBURSTS REMOVE SOME ATMOSPHERE]
_[Thomas Gold said:] For one big outburst every ten thousand years, for example, it would be permissible to have 2 × 10^−5 of the present atmosphere removed every time. That means the outburst could be intense enough to drive down to the 20 µ bar level and blast away everything above that level. The change in atmospheric pressure resulting would only have minor climatic consequences.
[SOLAR WIND MAGNETIC PRESSURE]
_The simple rule about the magnetic field strength generated at a large obstacle in the interplanetary stream is that the magnetic pressure will rise until it equals the stagnation pressure of the flow_ The solar gas driving at the Earth will thus augment its field on compression_ the field strength would be about 20 gauss.
[40% OF DATA DEPICT MODERN AURORAS]
_In Part I, direct comparison was made of some 40% of data carved on rock to that recorded in laboratories and in high-explosive high-energy tests with current magnitudes similar to that found in auroras today.
[SOME DATA DEPICT INSTABILITY PATTERNS]
_Other patterns could be attributed to and found to replicate Rayleigh–Taylor instabilities, as found experimentally and in computer simulations, when a relativistic-electron beam (REB) impacts the upper atmosphere [6]. The last category of petroglyphs depicting instability could be attributed to the diocotron or slip-stream instability associated with hollow REBs, which may produce some curtain patterns in contemporary auroras [7].
[PICTOGRAPHS DATE TO 7,000 YEARS BP]
_Only after methodologies matured for dating leached pigments in pictograph rock, [] scientists discovered that these objects stretched back some 7000 years in time_
[SOUTH POLE DIRECTION]
_relativistic electrons generated in such extreme geomagnetic storms primarily flow inward at Earth’s south polar axis [8]–[16]. _Unexpectedly, of those petroglyphs accurately surveyed and GPS logged, it was found that the light was observed totally from the direction of the south axial pole of Earth.
[INTENSE AURORA SIMULATION WITH DISTANCES]
_Fig. 66 is a virtual image of the intense auroral plasma column as determined from FOV directivity, angle of inclination, and GPS surveys of several thousands petroglyph “pixels.” Two egg-shaped plasmoids are found at 306,000 and 266,000 km, respectively. The farthest limit of the reconstruction (top) is located 701,000 km from Earth. The number of Birkeland currents is 56 at the top, converging to 28 at the plasmoids and eventually converging and twisting into four large filaments.

Looks like Native American Head Dresses were based on the view of an Intense Aurora (at YD event?) as Peratt determined from petroglyphs.
See Image: https://futureschool.boards.net/post/191/thread

COMMENTS: (YOUNGER DRYAS, SATURN FLARE, MAGNETIC FIELD) Peratt said the Rock Art generally dates to 7,000 BP, which is much younger than typical datings of the Younger Dryas event at 11,000 or so BP. I think the correct date will be about 4,300 BP. He said plasmoids must have formed above the Earth's south pole during the intense auroras, somewhat near the Moon's present distance above the equator. It's hard to connect this to the Saturn Theory so far, other than that a Saturn flare likely caused the Intense Aurora (Birkeland Current). But the Saturn configuration was over the opposite pole, so I guess petroglyphs don't show them together. I guess Saturn had likely not moved south at that point, or it would have been depicted. I don't know if Cardona had evidence that Saturn was seen to the south as it left the system. I think the magnetic pressure that Peratt mentioned may mean that the Intense Aurora / Birkeland Current may have increased Earth's magnetic field. He mentioned 20 gauss, but that seems a bit strong. It's now about .3 gauss, I believe. I don't think the Intense Aurora was the Polar Column that stretched from Saturn to Venus to Mars to Earth, or at least from Mars to Earth, because that was over the north pole, not the south.

[Lloyd]

23512

MORE ON PERATT'S PETROGLYPHS

Characteristics for the Occurrence of a High-Current, Z-Pinch Aurora as Recorded in Antiquity
https://plasmauniverse.info/downloads/P ... quityZ.pdf
[ARTIFICIAL AURORA]
_ON July 9, 1962, the United States detonated a 1.4-megaton thermonuclear device in the atmosphere 400 km above Johnston Island. The event produced a plasma whose initial spherical shape striated within a few minutes as the plasma electrons and ions streamed along the Earth’s magnetic field to produce an artificial aurora.
[LONG-LASTING ARTIFICIAL PLASMA TOROIDS]
_The event was recorded worldwide as the plasma formed at least two intense equatorial tubes, artificial Van Allen belts, around the Earth [1], [2]. These tubes, or plasma toroids, contained relativistic electrons bound by magnetic fields; the source of intense amounts of synchrotron radiation. The radiation lasted far longer than expected; the decay constant was of the order of 100 days.
[SYNCHROTRON RADIATION]
_Mankind, unknowing, has viewed synchrotron radiation from the Crab nebula for centuries. The only known mechanism that produces synchrotron radiation are [relativistic] electrons spiraling about a magnetic field at nearly the speed of light.
[NATURAL AURORAS]
_Above the lower atmosphere, at about 100 km, multiple layers of plasma form the ionosphere. The auroras occur in the lower portion of the ionosphere, primarily from about 90 to about 150 km, as the result of electrons interacting with and exciting molecules in the upper atmosphere. Prehistoric man at northern latitudes often likened the patterns produced to the butting of goat’s horns in combat.
[INTENSE AURORA PLASMOIDS]
_in an intense aurora, nine distinct pinches that are spheroidal in shape are formed. _These spheroids, or “plasmoids” consist of an outer spheroidal plasma envelope and inner toroids that define both the magnetic fields and the currents within them.
[PETROGLYPHS DATE TO AT LEAST 4,000 BP]
_The uncovering of the Glorieta Mesa and Rowe Mesa horizontal petroglyph sites from under one meter of earth near Santa Fe, NM might give the best indication of the ages of some petroglyphs. Campfire remnants some centimeters above the petroglyphs suggest that they are at least 4000 years old.
[[COMMENT: That's even closer to my timeline than what I quoted in the previous post from Peratt's second petroglyph paper. I figure the Intense Aurora Birkeland current event occurred during the Younger Dryas, Saturn Flare event about 4,300 BP.]]
[PETROGLYPH GROUPING]
_While single petroglyphs may be found, petroglyphs are most often found grouped in selected sites by the hundreds or thousands.
[ANCIENT DECADE-LONG EVOLVING AURORAL FIGURES]
_On large rock panels such as Fig. 13, overlaid petroglyphs are often heteromacs: figures with yet smaller figures attached, inside, or nearby. As the displayed figures in the sky evolved, perhaps over a decade, other overlays were added to represent the changes. Thus, association of petroglyph morphologies allows an epoch of electrical discharge evolution to be extracted from the carvings.
[IMAGES MADE IN DAYTIME]
_ Because of the time required to produce certain classes of morphologies of petroglyphs and also the precipitousness of location, we conclude that petroglyphs were produced during daylight conditions, perhaps twilight or dawn. This then allows an estimate of the luminance necessary to see auroral plasma phenomena.
[[COMMENT: The Saturn configuration likely made it possible to make the images day or night. The Sun illuminated daylight and Saturn illuminated at night, probably much brighter than modern moonlight.]]
[PIED PIPER?]
_No description of petroglyphs would be complete without the mention of Kokopelli, the flute-playing figure [resembling a plasma discharge] that has inspired surprisingly, far-ranging folk-stories. With little cultural embellishments to the image, these are found world-wide.
[GROTESQUE CREATURES]
_Fig. 40. Experimental plasma photograph of the upper terminus cup of an instability column as shown in Fig. 39, left. This shape can be interpreted to be a duck, a boat, or the body of an animal dependent upon the culture to which the artist belonged.
[INANA'S FEET]
_Fig. 41. Example of an electrical discharge [lightning-like] that has formed two filamentary currents each of which trifurcate at the bottom to allow the conduction of the current carried in the filaments.
[COMMENT: This double discharge resembles the feet of Inana in one image I've seen, i.e. bird feet. Inana was Venus in Sumer I think.]
[56-FOLD FILAMENTS & STONEHENGE]
_A solid beam of charged particles tends to form hollow cylinders that may then filament into individual currents_ In the subgigampere range, the maximum number of self-pinched filaments allowed before the cylindrical magnetic field will no longer split into “islands” for the parameters above has been found to be 56_ The most renowned of the 56 fold symmetric megaliths is Stonehenge. _As examples of 56-fold symmetric concentrics, we [have] three representative examples [of petroglyphs].

[Lloyd]

23783

PETROGLYPHS VS. SATURN THEORY

I searched on Petroglyphs at Catastrophism.com to see how many Saturn Theory motifs resemble petroglyphs. I posted results to my private forum at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/192/thread where I can organize, analyze and get data for more findings.

SOUTH SKY VS. NORTH

The main problems I see offhand are 1. Peratt's findings indicate that the ancient plasma phenomena depicted in petroglyphs show that they occurred in the southern sky, versus the Saturn Theory finding that the sky phenomena occurred in the northern sky; 2. The petroglyphs Peratt mentioned are different from the Saturn Theory motifs.

After I read through some of the more promising articles that I found via Catastrophism.com above, I think that may clear up things for me. Looks like there are several petroglyph types that Saturnists say are common Saturn Theory motifs. The main problem may be North vs. South.

See my recent posts above for links to Peratt's papers.

[Lloyd]

23967

SATURN THEORY MOTIFS FROM PETROGLYPHS

I copied Petroglyph excerpts from Catastrophism.com article search results at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/192/thread
In those excerpts I found the following Saturn Theory motifs: Saturn-Sun; Ladder to Saturn; Cross of Saturn/Venus; Serpent/Chaos-monster; Bifurcation above Venus & Mars. So Peratt's papers apparently just don't mention many of those motifs, for some reason. It's good to see that petroglyphs do seem to portray those motifs. But I hope to learn soon why the petroglyphs were apparently depicting the south polar sky instead of the north polar sky.

SATURN-SUN
>21. Vox POPVLI [Aeon]
____>"sun"
>>31. Saturnists Play Marbles [SIS Internet Digest]
____>circle within a circle within a circle with radiating spokes (the radiant Venus)
____>spirals and crescents
>40. Velikovsky's Legacy [Articles]
____>"Sun"
>>43. The Milky Way [Aeon]
____>"sun"
>>48. Day Star [Aeon]
____>"sun"-symbol
>>51. On testing The Polar configuration [Aeon]
____>sun god inside a great wheel
>d5. Celestial fireworks [SIS Internet Digest]
____>former skies

LADDER
>>45. Thoth Vol IV, No. 1: Jan 15, 2000 [Thoth]
____>ladder reaching to the Saturnian sun
>>35. Thundergods and Thunderbolts [Aeon]
____>LADDER
____>axis of the Saturnian configuration
____>polar column as a ladder, or stairway, Leading to the primeval
>>39. Stairway to Heaven [Aeon]
____>ladder as the axis of the Saturnian configuration
>>P29. Plasma discharges in rock art? [SIS Internet Digest]
____>sawteeth develop into strings of triangles, ladder shapes, and stacks of donuts
____>"The dragon! The arrows! The ladder of heaven! The backbone of the sky!"
>>41. The Cosmic Double Helix [Aeon]
____>columns and circles

CROSS
>47. The Revelation of John (Moons, Myths and Man) [Books]
____>new roof of our world!
____>heaven-propping quality of the ____>cross
____>serpent raging, powerlessly, above
>44. The Swastika: The Earliest Known Symbol, and its Migrations by Thomas Wilson [Books]
2____>crosses, and circles containing crosses of simple and complex types

SERPENT
>24. S.I.S Review Vol. V Number 4: Contents [SIS Review]
____>monster about to swallow the Sun or Moon
>25. Society News. C&C Review 2002:1 [SIS Review]
____>zoomorphic figures such as crocodile and hippopotamus and cobra
>>17. Archetypes Showing The Presence of Anomalous Electromagnetic Activity [SIS Review]
____>deities with lower limbs a serpentine or eel-like look
____>boat-like form
____>winged discs
____>hyperboloids
>d5. Celestial fireworks [SIS Internet Digest]
____>natural world
>>d26. Letters [SIS Workshop]
____>Horned god', sorcerer', anthropomorphic figure'

BIFURCATION (I hadn't heard much if anything about a bifurcation as a motif of the Saturn model.)
>>14. Maori Legends about Historical Impact Disaster [SIS Internet Digest]
____>splitting of the horns of the moon which fell to earth causing mayhem
____>new moon with the lower horn of the moon split
____>Lizard on a crescent, on a crescent with a split horn
>61. The Opening of The Mouth Ritual - Part II [Aeon]
____>hieroglyphs of the 4 sky poles, the headdress plumes of Horus, headdress of Meskhenet/Venus
____>Y-shape figures
____>both Venus and Mars were seen to move below this bifurcation
____>Plasma Fork: Possibly the most important indicator of this bifurcation is to be found in the appearance of Birkeland currents and plasma columns

PERATT'S ANCIENT INTENSE AURORAS
This article discussed the possible cause of the intense aurora depicted in petroglyphs. I'll try to find the whole article.
>>49. News from the Internet [SIS Workshop]
The cause of this enhanced aurora has yet to be determined, but promising candidates are:
- extreme solar weather;
- passage through a gigantic molecular cloud;
- the disintegration of a giant comet;
- [[Saturn Flare]]

[Lloyd]

24278

I found more of the previous excerpt re Petroglyphs and the Intense Auroras that inspired them. There are two items in the news from that 2005 article. The first is re the Ipuwer Papyrus, so I'll quote from that too.

IPUWER PAPYRUS FROM 2ND INTERMEDIATE PERIOD OF EGYPT

>>49. News from the Internet [SIS Workshop]
_From: SIS Chronology and Catastrophism Workshop 2005:3 (October 2005) News from the Internet Compiled by Ian Tresman
_Ages in Chaos http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_in_Chaos
_Although most of the theories presented in "Ages in Chaos" are considered quite unacceptable by most scholars, some of the ideas have been confirmed by independent research by notable scholars. For example, his hypothesis that ____>the Ipuwer Papyrus belongs not in the First Intermediate Period but rather in the Second Intermediate Period of ancient Egyptian history was confirmed in 1966 by John Van Seters in "The Hyksos: A New Investigation." Van Seters' analysis was based on sound linguistic criteria and has never been refuted. His conclusions were reached quite independently of "Ages in Chaos." Van Seters was probably not even aware of Velikovsky's work.
[[COMMENT: I don't know much about the Intermediate Periods yet, but offhand I suspect that the first one came sometime after the Great Flood and the second during the Younger Dryas impacts event.]]

MYTHS, PETROGLYPHS, ENHANCED AURORA

_Introducing Plasma Mythology http://mythopedia.info/
_A large segment of the world's repository of myths, rituals and early cosmologies reflects an episode in time when the sky looked more turbulent and alive than it does today. Extreme auroral events prevailed, likely caused by a disturbance of the geomagnetic field and an excessive influx of cometary debris that also precipitated an enhanced zodiacal light. The spectacular lively shapes caused by the instabilities in the plasma were remembered by the ancients as gods, ancestors or dragons, whose mysterious deeds in the celestial world constituted the destruction and creation of worlds. This is the thrust of a fresh approach to world mythology that has gained increasing momentum for some time and has recently been powerfully reinforced by experiments conducted in plasma laboratories. Plasma mythology: For more than 200 years modern mythologists have been trying to penetrate the mystery of mythology. No consensus was ever reached as to the meaning and origin of the early traditions, but towards the end of the 20th century two developments stood out from the welter of theories: the explanation had to allow for variability in the earth's direct cosmic environment (catastrophism) and it had to concentrate on the pole or the zenith as the perceived centre' of the cosmos (polarism). Until now the proponents of these two sets of ideas have ignored each other, but what is really called for is a fusion of the two. Modern discoveries in plasma science suggest that many of the most influential myths were based on eye-witness accounts of a very intense and sustained aurora, accompanied by meteor showers and the formation of a bright zodiacal light. As is well known today, the auroras are formed of plasma or ionised gas in the ionosphere that responds with great sensitivity to the movements of the earth's magnetic field and the influx of charged particles from the solar wind. Plasma experiments have revealed that a high-energy-density event would produce an aurora in the form of a high-current z-pinch or Birkeland current undergoing complex instabilities that have only recently been understood and analysed. People on earth would have witnessed a stupendous pillar of light reaching from the horizon to the highest region of the sky and could well have blotted out the comparatively dim light of the moon, the stars, and even the sun. The spectacular events transpiring in that alien sky inspired many defining forms of religion, art, and architecture, the remnants of which are still with us today. They were faithfully recorded on stone in thousands of ____petroglyphs all over the world, enacted in thousands of rituals celebrated until the present day, and narrated in thousands of myths now baffling scholars and laymen alike. The ____>cause of this enhanced aurora has yet to be determined, but promising candidates are extreme solar weather, passage through a gigantic molecular cloud, the disintegration of a giant comet in the inner solar system, or a combination of these hypotheses. The two most significant events appear to have occurred at about 3100 BCE and 2300 BCE. During intervening and subsequent centuries the sky remained filled with debris and only in the 1st millennium BCE had the sky been sufficiently cleared up for planetary astronomy to emerge....
[[COMMENT: Gary Gilligan thinks space dust caused the Sun and planets to appear red down to about Jesus' time, or Caesar's time. See http://www.godkingscenario.com/
_Of course, Dwardu Cardona likely thought the intense aurora was caused by a Saturn Flare-up/Nova above the North Pole.
_2300 BC would have been during the Younger Dryas event. 3100 BC would have been before the Great Flood, so that date must be wrong, since the geologic column was produced by the Flood and any petroglyphs from before the Flood would have been destroyed or buried.]]

[Lloyd]

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REVISED BIBLE CHRONOLOGY

I just read this interesting article from Catastrophism.com:
A Brief Summary of the Evidence for a Gap in the Bible and Much Earlier Dates for Many of its Major Events [Catastrophism & Ancient History Journal]
_From: Proceedings of The Second Seminar of Catastrophism and Ancient History (1985) Tom Chetwynd
I don't have time to discuss this fully, but it's based on comparing the Bible chronology with archeological findings and using the archeological dates, which seem to me to be more accurate.
_2850 B.C.: Rise of the Sumerian city states may have coincided with Abraham's departure from Sumer (IMO, this would have been shortly after the Great Flood, but I don't know if the Flood was that long ago - Maybe so).
_2700 B.C.: The Vizier Imhotep of Egypt was Joseph.
_2600-2200 B.C.: The Age of Pyramids was when the Israelites lived in the Nile delta of Egypt.
_2200 B.C.: The Old Kingdom collapse due to global cataclysms (IMO, the Younger Dryas & Saturn Nova event).
_2100 B.C.: Evidence of a freak occupation of the Negeb desert (the Israelites under Moses in the Wilderness).
_2050 B.C.: Canaan conquest followed by Israelite settlement under the Judges.
_1700-1575 B.C.: The great Canaanite/Israelite empire; Kings Saul, David, Solomon.
Next followed a time when Egyptians, Hittites, and Mitanni peoples plunder and conquer Canaan/Israel (I guess leading to the loss of the Ten northern Tribes and the later Babylonian captivity of the two remaining Tribes).
_7th Century B.C.: The Hebrew chroniclers compiled the Bible.
Just as Homer of the 8th Century BC wrote the Iliad about the Trojan War which we've found occurred over a thousand years earlier about 2300 BC, the Hebrew chroniclers of the 7th Century BC wrote the history of Israel which occurred mostly over a thousand years earlier. Both the Greeks and Israelites histories described some of the catastrophes that occurred about 2300 BC. I guess the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire of the Exodus described the polar column under Saturn or Mars.