Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun May 16, 2021 1:12 am

SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP WHEN, IF NOT 2300 BC?
Ev said: As I noted earlier in this thread (?) the polar configuration was already old news in the Pyramid Texts, which themselves were inscribed in stone in 2300 BCE. I fear your desire to place the Flood and/or Dryas event during the relatively recent past is fraught with problems.
Moe Mandelkehr and others have proposed that cataclysms occurred around 2300 BC. I think there's good evidence that that was the Younger Dryas event, which has rock strata at the top of the "geologic column". The Great Flood appears to have produced the rest of the column of sedimentary strata. There's an iridium spike (with spherules etc) in the Great Flood strata at K/T and another spike at the Younger Dryas. I find that the Great Flood likely occurred around 3,000 BC.

My desire is to place the Flood and the Dryas event where they truly occurred. What are some of the main problems my placements are fraught with? (You must admit that 2300 BC is less recent than Velikovsky's 1450 BC and 700 BC. Right?) And why do you say the Saturn configuration was old news in Pyramid Text times?

moses
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by moses » Sun May 16, 2021 11:14 pm

Hi Lloyd,
Sure planets and stars form as beads on a helical string. This process will take millions of years as an extrusion from a galaxy. Perhaps a line of planets can form in a galaxy but my theory is that the proposed Saturn System and polar configuration is a mis-interpretation due to not fully considering the effects of magnetospheres in glow mode.
Mo

evcochrane
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by evcochrane » Mon May 17, 2021 1:11 am

Lloyd wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:12 am SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP WHEN, IF NOT 2300 BC?
Ev said: As I noted earlier in this thread (?) the polar configuration was already old news in the Pyramid Texts, which themselves were inscribed in stone in 2300 BCE. I fear your desire to place the Flood and/or Dryas event during the relatively recent past is fraught with problems.
Moe Mandelkehr and others have proposed that cataclysms occurred around 2300 BC. I think there's good evidence that that was the Younger Dryas event, which has rock strata at the top of the "geologic column". The Great Flood appears to have produced the rest of the column of sedimentary strata. There's an iridium spike (with spherules etc) in the Great Flood strata at K/T and another spike at the Younger Dryas. I find that the Great Flood likely occurred around 3,000 BC.

My desire is to place the Flood and the Dryas event where they truly occurred. What are some of the main problems my placements are fraught with? (You must admit that 2300 BC is less recent than Velikovsky's 1450 BC and 700 BC. Right?) And why do you say the Saturn configuration was old news in Pyramid Text times?
Lloyd, the KT boundary is conventionally dated to around 66 million years ago. That's roughly 66 million years before 2300 BCE. I would say that is a major problem with your scenario. By "old news" I meant that the Saturn configuration was likely long gone by the time the Pyramid Texts were carved in 2350 BCE. For example, there are numerous statements to the effect that this or that catastrophic event happened a long time ago (the disaster associated with the Eye of Horus=Venus, for example). For those interested in a detailed analysis of this myth, you can see my website at www.maverickscience.com. There's a long article on the Eye of Horus in the Archaeoastronomy section that you can download and see the original sources in question.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon May 17, 2021 3:51 am

59659

WHEN DID THE SATURN SYSTEM BREAK UP?
Ev said: see my website at www.maverickscience.com. There's a long article on the Eye of Horus in the Archaeoastronomy section
The Eye of Horus isn't shown in the Archaeoastronomy section of your site. But I was able to do a search of your site and found it at this link:
https://www.maverickscience.com/wp-cont ... -Horus.pdf

After I said the K/T boundary occurred during the Great Flood,
Ev said: the KT boundary is conventionally dated to around 66 million years ago
In my recent OPEN LETTER TO DAVE TALBOTT & OTHER SATURNISTS at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =495#p5050 I had a paragraph on the "Sedimentary Rock Record". Did you read that? I said there can't have been thousands of years of just one rock type eroding from somewhere and forming a layer of rock elsewhere (in a lowland) and repeating the process with that and the other individual rock types to create the "geologic column" or entire rock record, especially with little or no evidence of erosion between layers. This proves that almost all of the sedimentary rock had to have been deposited all in a short period of time, likely a few months during a fairly recent Great Flood (since only flooding can sort sediments into the different rock types). Conventional dating methods are mostly based on extremely improbable assumptions. Coal, supposedly formed long before the dinosaurs, has been C14 dated, which means it's not older than some tens of thousands of years. Dinosaur bones have also been similarly C14 dated. I've discussed the evidence for these things in this thread.
Ev said: the Saturn configuration was likely long gone by the time the Pyramid Texts were carved in 2350 BCE. For example, there are numerous statements to the effect that this or that catastrophic event happened a long time ago (the disaster associated with the Eye of Horus=Venus, for example).
Where can I find such ancient statements? I didn't find any in your paper on The Eye of Horus. Enheduana, preistess of Ur in Sumeria, spoke of Inanna (Venus) depositing venom on the land, as if it happened very recently in her own time. And she (Enheduana) is dated to just before 2250 BC. So that and some other things make me think the Saturn Configuration lasted till about that time. Do you have a guess as to when the Saturn System came to an end, and based on what evidence?

evcochrane
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by evcochrane » Mon May 17, 2021 1:00 pm

Lloyd wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:51 am 59659

WHEN DID THE SATURN SYSTEM BREAK UP?
Ev said: see my website at www.maverickscience.com. There's a long article on the Eye of Horus in the Archaeoastronomy section
The Eye of Horus isn't shown in the Archaeoastronomy section of your site. But I was able to do a search of your site and found it at this link:
https://www.maverickscience.com/wp-cont ... -Horus.pdf

After I said the K/T boundary occurred during the Great Flood,
Ev said: the KT boundary is conventionally dated to around 66 million years ago
In my recent OPEN LETTER TO DAVE TALBOTT & OTHER SATURNISTS at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =495#p5050 I had a paragraph on the "Sedimentary Rock Record". Did you read that? I said there can't have been thousands of years of just one rock type eroding from somewhere and forming a layer of rock elsewhere (in a lowland) and repeating the process with that and the other individual rock types to create the "geologic column" or entire rock record, especially with little or no evidence of erosion between layers. This proves that almost all of the sedimentary rock had to have been deposited all in a short period of time, likely a few months during a fairly recent Great Flood (since only flooding can sort sediments into the different rock types). Conventional dating methods are mostly based on extremely improbable assumptions. Coal, supposedly formed long before the dinosaurs, has been C14 dated, which means it's not older than some tens of thousands of years. Dinosaur bones have also been similarly C14 dated. I've discussed the evidence for these things in this thread.

All I can say, Lloyd, is your definition of proof is different than mine. While most of us here are willing to concede that vast quantities of sedimentary rock can be deposited in a short period of time, you still need to account for the incontestable fact that the dinosaur bones are typically found well below the geological layers having human remains. Likewise, we have abundant rock art for the period from 30,000 BCE on that, while it shows plenty of extinct animals like wooly Mammoths, never shows dinosaurs. How does your theory explain those two inconvenient facts? If all of this rock was suddenly deposited around 2300 BCE you would expect to find dinosaur bones jumbled together with human remains and references to TREX in the Pyramid Texts. The fact this *never* happens is strong evidence against your scenario, I should think.

evcochrane
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by evcochrane » Mon May 17, 2021 1:09 pm

Lloyd asked where he might find an indication in the Pyramid Texts that the Eye of Horus disaster occurred well before the construction of the pyramids themselves. There are numerous such spells in the early texts. Here is one:

“Hearts were pervaded with fear, hearts were pervaded with terror when I was born in the Abyss before the sky existed, before the earth existed, before that which was to be made firm existed, before turmoil existed, before that fear which arose on account of the Eye of Horus existed." (PT 1039-1040).

As is evident from the context here, the Eye of Horus disaster is placed well before the present time and is explicitly linked to the Time of Beginning--i.e., the extraordinary cataclysmic events remembered as Creation--when heaven was separated from earth and the primordial ordering of the cosmos occurred. The ancient Egyptians themselves were crystal clear that such events were formative for their entire civilization and religion and that they occurred well before the period associated with the inscribing of the Pyramid Texts (c. 2350). It will be noted here that the inscribing of the Texts presumably occurred long after the "composing" or "writing" of the traditions themselves.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon May 17, 2021 3:03 pm

59815

WHEN DID THE SATURN SYSTEM BREAK UP? Part 2

NO HUMAN REMAINS WITH DINOSAUR REMANS?
Ev said: ... While most of us here are willing to concede that vast quantities of sedimentary rock can be deposited in a short period of time, you still need to account for the incontestable fact that the dinosaur bones are typically found well below the geological layers having human remains. Likewise, we have abundant rock art for the period from 30,000 BCE on that, while it shows plenty of extinct animals like wooly Mammoths, never shows dinosaurs. How does your theory explain those two inconvenient facts? If all of this rock was suddenly deposited around 2300 BCE you would expect to find dinosaur bones jumbled together with human remains and references to TREX in the Pyramid Texts. The fact this *never* happens is strong evidence against your scenario, I should think.
EVIDENCE FOR TWO MAJOR CATACLYSMS (3000 & 2300 BC)
_LK: I wasn't saying the Great Flood (which deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock) occurred c. 2300 BC. That was the Younger Dryas event, which likely did include flooding, but not as severe as the Great Flood, which latter seems to have occurred c. 3,000 BC, a number of centuries earlier. Since the supercontinent, Pangaea, at the time of the Great Flood, was lowland, without mountains, it didn't require tidal waves several miles high to drown it; it only required tidal waves a few hundred meters high to do so. So there likely weren't many human survivors of the Great Flood and not be many records of it. Many or most people survived the later Younger Dryas cataclysms, so there are many more records.

I have an index for this thread at https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... read-index
One of my posts there from thread page 26 has these topics.
YOUNG EARTH OR YOUNG SUPERCONTINENT: DATING HELIUM IN ZIRCONS; DATING ARGON IN GRANITE; COAL, DIAMONDS, DINOSAUR BONES; MY SLIGHTLY REVISED TIMELINE; SEVERAL POSSIBLE MEANS OF SUPERCONTINENT COLONIZATION
Here's the link to the post: https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =375#p3653

The dating of zircons and argon in granite (in the U.S. Southwest, I think) indicates that the granite is no more than 8 or 9 thousand years old. C14 dates dinosaur bones mostly to between 20 and 30 thousand years old and coal to a little older. And C14 dating isn't entirely accurate either. Some dinosaur bones in the arctic are unfossilized or partly so. Although there may have been only some tens of thousands of humans at the time of the Great Flood and thus very few leaving remains, I believe human remains were found in a bonebed with dinosaur fossils near the east coast around the Carolinas. Human fossils were found in Colorado or nearby in a formation that also contains dinosaur fossils. Human footprints are side-by-side with dinosaur tracks in Texas. There are a number of ancient drawings, sculptures, and records of dinosaurs. The mainstream doesn't help, since they often try to hide or even destroy evidence that undermines their main beliefs.

What evidence is there that any rock art is 30,000 years old?
And when do you think the Saturn Configuration broke up?

PYRAMID TEXT QUOTE RE CREATION
Ev said: “Hearts were pervaded with fear, hearts were pervaded with terror when I was born in the Abyss before the sky existed, before the earth existed, before that which was to be made firm existed, before turmoil existed, before that fear which arose on account of the Eye of Horus existed." (PT 1039-1040).
Thank you for providing the translated PT quote. I think you said you aren't highly impressed with Cardona's research, but his is the only research I've had access to regarding the possible time period of the Saturn configuration. And I think he got the major cataclysms backwards. He put the Younger Dryas event before the Great Flood, I think, because he didn't realize that the sedimentary rock was deposited during the Flood. Since the Younger Dryas strata are near the top of the rock record, they were obviously deposited after the Flood sediments.

As I suggested lately, the iridium spikes in the Flood sediments and Younger Dryas sediments may be due to Saturn flareups, as Cardona kind of seemed to say. The "creation" event should have been at the time of the Great Flood, just before it started, where the Bible said "Let there be light", which Cardona thought indicated a Saturn flareup. I figure there is no iridium spike at the bottom of the sedimentary rock record, because the Flood probably mixed it up with other sediments.

So, I reckon the PT quote was probably referring to the onset of the Great Flood of c. 3000 BC.

evcochrane
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by evcochrane » Mon May 17, 2021 3:19 pm

Lloyd, I'm sorry to say that you are relying on totally bogus sources for the claims that dinosaurs are depicted in rock art or that dinosaur bones are mixed up with human remains. The old wive's tale that human footprints overlap with dinosaurs in Texas is a famous canard. I would suggest you start with a serious, credible modern text on paleontology and geology and see what the experts have to say on such subjects. Likewise, any modern book on ancient rock art will give you dozens of European caves whose paintings have been carbon-dated to 20-30,000 years ago.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon May 17, 2021 4:18 pm

C14 DATING UNRELIABLE

Ev, you seem to be unfamiliar with the fact that C14 dating is not reliable. If you think about it, it should be obvious why. Britannica.com says: Carbon-14 is continually formed in nature by the interaction of neutrons with nitrogen-14 in the Earth's atmosphere; the neutrons required for this reaction are produced by cosmic rays interacting with the atmosphere.

If Earth's atmosphere was much thicker at the time of the Great Flood, and/or if it contained a great deal of dust etc, due to cataclysmic conditions, C14 formation would likely have been greatly affected, which would make C14 dating unreliable. You're relying on Uniformitarian assumptions. C14 dating is surely more reliable than other radiometric dating methods, but still not accurate, especially for more ancient objects.

Regarding sources, none are perfect, because none are omniscient. All are potentially useful, because nearly all have at least some truth. Comparative study and interdisciplinary synthesis help to discern truth.

TIME OF THE ATEN?

Charles Chandler, early in this thread, said "Aten, winged sun disk, ... originated ca 2600 BC". He referenced: A STUDY OF HORUS THE BEHDETITE - FROM THE OLD KINGDOM TO THE CONQUEST OF ALEXANDER at https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchica ... TATION.pdf page 531, Fig. 4 (which says): The earliest winged sun disk, coffin of Hetepheres, 4th Dynasty (of Egypt), which elsewhere is said to have reigned from c. 2613 to 2494 BC.

Ev, do you agree with that? I did a search on your website and I don't find anything about ATEN there. Doesn't the Saturn Theory say that the Aten was a band around Saturn that was formed by a dust trail of Venus when Venus went out of the configuration temporarily? There are 12 articles from Aeon that mention Aten as you can see at https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=2/. Did the Aten form at the same time that Ken Moss said Venus went out of the configuration in his articles on The Opening of the Mouth Ritual?

evcochrane
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by evcochrane » Mon May 17, 2021 7:16 pm

[quote=Lloyd post_id=5107 time=1621268336 user_id=184]
C14 DATING UNRELIABLE


Charles Chandler, early in this thread, said "Aten, winged sun disk, ... originated ca 2600 BC". He referenced: A STUDY OF HORUS THE BEHDETITE - FROM THE OLD KINGDOM TO THE CONQUEST OF ALEXANDER at https://oi.uchicago.edu/sites/oi.uchica ... TATION.pdf page 531, Fig. 4 (which says): The earliest winged sun disk, coffin of Hetepheres, 4th Dynasty (of Egypt), which elsewhere is said to have reigned from c. 2613 to 2494 BC.

Ev, do you agree with that?

Thanks much for bringing this source to my attention, Lloyd. It would appear to be a very thorough and up-to-date discussion. I have downloaded the 700-page dissertation and will give it a close read and report back my opinion and/or findings with regards to your questions. Note: If you don't mind, I would much prefer to discuss these matters on one of the Planetary Science/Myth threads. I am not comfortable contributing to a Creationism or Mad Ideas thread. Hope you understand.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue May 18, 2021 6:06 pm

60251

CATASTROPHISM FROM UNIFORMITARIANISM?
evcochrane wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:19 pm Lloyd, I'm sorry to say that you are relying on totally bogus sources for the claims that dinosaurs are depicted in rock art or that dinosaur bones are mixed up with human remains. The old wive's tale that human footprints overlap with dinosaurs in Texas is a famous canard. I would suggest you start with a serious, credible modern text on paleontology and geology and see what the experts have to say on such subjects. Likewise, any modern book on ancient rock art will give you dozens of European caves whose paintings have been carbon-dated to 20-30,000 years ago.
I'm not a Creationist, since I don't believe the Bible is the Word of God or that Earth etc was created in the way the Bible describes. I believe the Bible is the word of Man about what they thought was the Word of God. Nonetheless, Creation scientists seem to be somewhat more open-minded and scientific than mainstream scientists. Creation scientists were educated at the same universities that other scientists got their degrees from, so they should know just as much.

Creation Ministries International at https://creation.com/articles and Institute for Creation Research at https://www.icr.org/homepage/ have a lot of scientific articles and papers that show excellent scientific work. Those are not bogus sources any more than Thunderbolts.info is bogus.

Some of their articles reference C14 measurements of coal etc. I'm not sure offhand if they reference those of dinosaur bones. But Mike Fischer has a short scientific paper that does show C14 results for 10 to 20 different dinosaur bones which measured mostly between 20 and 30 thousand years of age. I saw a video of the dinosaur tracks overlapping human footprints in Texas.

How can a Catastrophist rely just on mainstream science? The mainstream denies the possibility of catastrophism at least in recent times. They also promote pure nonsense, like black holes, big bang, expanding universe, neutron stars, worm holes, anthropogenic global warming, etc. And they refuse to consider electrical forces as being significant in astronomy and geology; they refuse to consider transmutation of elements, other than via radioactivity. Mainstream science is highly corrupt. Alternative science is often incompetent as well, but we can fix that, at least in our own alternative. Alternative includes what's good in mainstream science too.

Ev doesn't want to write on the NIAMI board here, but this is the only place they let me write about much of what I discuss. They don't let me discuss it on the other boards. I didn't like the name of this board either and was reluctant to write here initially. I asked them to change the name, because it implies that some or much of what's discussed here are mad ideas, but they wanted to keep it. So I bit the bullet and started writing here. Readers don't seem to mind the name of the board, since this thread seems to get more views than any other on the forum. Right now, it looks like over 300 views in one day.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu May 20, 2021 6:11 pm

60868

TIME OF SATURN CONFIGURATION BREAKUP

That's what I'm working on with Ev at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 5122#p5118

He mentions when the configuration was first seen, but without a specific range of dates. I was thinking it was first seen around the time of the Younger Dryas event, but it's looking now more likely that it was at the time of the Great Flood. He hasn't given a time for the breakup of the configuration either and I still think that was after the Younger Dryas event.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun May 23, 2021 4:43 am

61646

THREAD VIEWS: I subtracted wrong. This thread got 400 views in one day. MAINSTREAM NONSENSE VS. EU: By the way, in my previous list of nonsense that mainstream science promotes, I forgot to mention dark matter and dark energy. Of course, those are just electrical and magnetic forces, which cause e.g. the outer reaches of galaxies to rotate at non-Newtonian velocities, as Charles Chandler explains by Figures 15 and 16 in his Galaxies paper at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=5941

LOOKING FOR DATE THE SATURN SYSTEM BROKE UP

_At the thread Ev settled down at at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 5122#p5118 he and Charles are now discussing whether or not Moses was an actual person. Ev thinks Adam, Noah and Moses were just mythical figures (and myths generally relate to the Polar Configuration). I'm open-minded.
_Earlier on this thread Ev said PT 1039-1040 etc indicates that the Saturn Configuration was long gone by that time (when the Pyramid Texts were carved), 2350 BC. But he said the Eye of Horus disaster which that text mentioned(?) was the time of beginning or creation. So I don't see how that would indicate that the Configuration was long gone. I mentioned that in Sumer it seems like Inanna/Venus' priestess was describing disasters brought on by Venus in her time, c. 2250 BC. So far, I don't think I've heard of any myths that mention the end of the Saturn Configuration. I just remember seeing a pic from (I think) Sumer showing someone pointing to an empty throne, which I think Dave suggested may have meant Saturn was gone. Maybe I'll have to ask Ev about that. Anyway, Ev persuaded me that the Saturn Configuration probably started well before the Younger Dryas event, but he hasn't persuaded me that it ended well before it. I still think it likely ended a few years or decades after it.

BRONZE AGE: HOMER NOT IN THE BALTIC

I discussed the theory that the Iliad & Odyssey took place in the Baltic recently and Ev said they're both complete myth. He said there was a review in C&C, so maybe this is it. This review doesn't say they're myths, but it says they didn't take place in the Baltic.

Homer in the Baltic (Book Review, by Emmet J. Sweeney). C&C Review 2002:1 (Jul 2002)
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... zoom_cat=9
_... the case for identifying the Baltic as the location of the events described in the Iliad rests almost entirely on name similarities. ... Aside from an over-reliance on this type of evidence, there is one other glaring omission: the author fails even to note the existence of evidence refuting his thesis, yet such evidence exists in plenty. ... scholars have been struck by the astonishing similarities between the world of the epics and the world discovered by the spades of archaeologists in Greece [not in the Baltic]. Numerous features of Mycenaean dress (e.g. the boar's tusk helmets) which Homer vividly describes, and which were always believed to be fictitious, were dramatically verified by the excavations in Mycenae, Tiryns and elsewhere. Vinci fails completely to mention that some of Schliemann's most dramatic discoveries (including the Shaft Graves at Mycenae) came to light because he trusted the ancient traditions - unlike the scholarly establishment, which did not. ... individuals mentioned on [The Linear B texts] bear names identical to many of those in the Iliad. Even more to the point, at least one piece of cuneiform literature from Anatolia, the Madduwattas text, describes the activities of Moxos/Mopsos, one of Agamemnon's lieutenants, whilst other documents of the same era arguably mention Agamemnon himself (Atreides in the Iliad, Attarsiyas in the documents).
_What then of Vinci's central thesis? I would suggest that he has done what many researchers before him have done. He has stumbled upon a truth but then overplayed his hand. The truth is that not only the Odyssey but much of Greek myth and legend is heavily influenced by material from northern and north-western Europe. The Greeks themselves placed much of the action of their most important myths in the far north. Thus for example the slaying of the Gorgon Medusa took place on an island off the coast of Hyperborea (the latter clearly identified as Britain by Hecataeus of Abdera) and there is abundant evidence to show that the entire Gorgon myth is a British original. ... Similarly, many (or even most) of the Labours of Hercules took place in northern and western Europe. He even sired the Celts. British names and characters found in Arthurian tradition also occur in Greek myth, e.g. Lot (or Ludd), the mythical king of Orkney who was linked to the story of two dragons entwined around each other and battling in the sky on May Day. The same character occurs in the Greek myth as Ladon/Latone the serpent/dragon who entwined himself around the Apple Tree in the Garden of the Hesperides.
_Why were the Greeks so heavily influenced by the peoples of Northern Europe? Almost certainly not because they remembered coming from there but because northern Europe was the source of almost all the bronze reaching Greece and the Levant at the time. Northern and north-western European Bronze Age culture was highly developed. Trade in Cornish tin and bronze was intense and the peoples of both Britain and Scandinavia were competent and widely-travelled seafarers. ...

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon May 24, 2021 4:27 am

62118

WESTERN N. AMERICAN SEDIMENT ORIGINS IN EASTERN N. AMERICA (OR EAST OF AFRICA?)
Long-distance transport of sediments
https://creation.com/long-distance-tran ... -sediments
Sand transport for thousands of kilometres
_In 1992, Rainbird et al. deduced that sands in sandstones from various areas of north-west Canada mostly originated from south-eastern North America, travelling from one side of North America to the other.5 The sediments analyzed were originally deposited in two arcuate Precambrian basins — the Mackenzie and the Amundsen basins. These basins contain thousands of metres of sedimentary rocks.... Portions of the basins have uplifted into mountains, where the sedimentary rocks can be sampled. The paleocurrent directions in the sandstones are also consistently from the south-east, supporting their conclusions.
_... in their most recent research they ... obtained the same results (though more local sources were found in the lowest sandstones just above the upper crustal igneous and metamorphic rocks). They found sand grains embedded throughout considerable thicknesses of strata, over 4,000 m thick in the Amundsen Basin, likely originated from the area of the Grenville orogeny and other faraway Precambrian terranes near the Appalachian Mountains, about 3,000 km [2,000 mi.] away. They emphasize that the ‘river’ or ‘rivers’ that flowed toward the north-west were at least 1,200 km [800 mi.] wide! This is “much wider than any modern fluvial system on Earth”.7
_Rainbird et al. claim that the sand had travelled such long distances based on the ‘ages’ of zircon crystals in the sand.
_Sandstones of south-west North America and Alberta also mostly from Grenville orogeny
_Not only are the sand and other sediments of north-west North America believed to have originated from eastern North America, but so are most of the sands in south-west North America and Alberta.12
_Neoproterozoic and Cambrian strata in the south-west United States and north-west Mexico are believed to come from the Grenville orogeny....14 In this case, the nearest Grenville terrane is in Texas about 1,000–1,500 km away [700-900 mi.].
_The huge Permian and Jurassic ‘eolian’ sandstones on the Colorado Plateau of the south-west United States are believed to have blown in from the north, as far as Canada, according to paleocurrent directions. Nearly half of the original sand is believed to have been transported 1,000–2,000 km from the east, from around the Appalachian Mountains. 15-17 Rainbird et al. think this westward-transported sand was then picked up by northerly winds and spread into south-west United States. Most of the upper Paleozoic sands from Grand Canyon are also thought to have come from the Appalachian region and been spread by large rivers.18 Some of the strata from the western Canadian Sedimentary Basin in Alberta are also deduced to have come from the Grenville orogeny and the Appalachian area.19 It appears all the sandstones (as well as other sediments) from north-west Canada to north-west Mexico originated from the eastern part of North America.
_Unfortunately for the secular model, evidence for their postulated ancient transcontinental rivers does not show up in the sedimentary rocks of middle North America.20
_[An] explanation ... is that the sand and other sediments were transported westward long distances over wide areas during the Genesis Flood. This evidence is better explained by wide, fast water currents picking up the sand and depositing it during the Flood. All this sediment in western North America transported from eastern North America does imply a large mountain uplift in the east.
_... it seems this cataclysmic sediment transport would better fit the early part of the Genesis Flood.22

RELATED ARTICLES
Colorado Plateau sandstones derived from the Appalachians?
https://creation.com/colorado-plateau-sandstones
Granite formation: catastrophic in its suddenness
https://creation.com/granite-formation- ... suddenness

THINKING ABOUT SEDIMENT ORIGINS
_In the first article above, Oard said: "All this sediment in western North America transported from eastern North America does imply a large mountain uplift in the east."
_Mike Fischer's model at https://www.newgeology.us/ says the Shock Dynamics asteroid impact that broke up the supercontinent and caused rapid continental drift and mountain building occurred a few centuries after the Great Flood. But I mentioned to him a few years ago that Oard, I think, said the Grand Canyon formed during the recession stage of the Flood, which makes sense to me, and I think it had to form as the Colorado plateau was uplifting. So the asteroid impact and rapid continental drift and mountain building had to occur during the Flood. But it only took one day for the Rockies to uplift after the Appalachians uplifted, which would be way too fast for the waters from the East to deposit sediments in the West and immediately uplift the western sediments too.
_It appears, therefore, that Oard was wrong about mountain uplift in the East causing the sediment flow to the West. The Atlantic must not yet have formed and the waters that carried eastern sediments to the West must have come from southeast of Africa via tsunamis.
_PS, another important point Mike Fischer made is that the Flood sediments hardened pretty strongly because the atmosphere was reduced by impacts and degassing caused CO2 to combine with calcium to form lime, which acted as a cement for forming rock from the sediments. And Cardona has an explanation in one of his books about how impacts would remove portions of the atmosphere.

HEIGHT & VELOCITY OF SOME FLOOD WAVES
Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood: Footprints and sand ‘dunes’ in a Grand Canyon sandstone!
https://creation.com/startling-evidence-for-noahs-flood
_ Coconino Sandstone (see Figures 1 and 2). It is estimated to have an average thickness of 96 m (315 ft) and, with equivalent sandstones to the east, covers an area of about 519,000 sq km (200,000 sq miles).2 [It covers northern Arizona, northwest Colorado, Nevada, and Utah.]
_The thickest sets of cross beds in the Coconino Sandstone so far reported are 9 m (30 ft) thick.16 Cross beds of that height imply sand waves at least 18 m (60 ft) high and a water depth of around 90 m to 95 m (300 ft). For water that deep to make and move sand waves as high as 18 m (60 ft) the minimum current velocity would need to be over 95 cm per second (3 ft per second) or 3.2 km (2 miles) per hour. The maximum current velocity would have been almost 165 cm or 1.65 m per second (5.5 ft per second) or 6 km (3.75 miles) per hour. Beyond that velocity experimental and observational evidence has shown that flat sand beds only would be formed.
_Cross beds within the Coconino dip consistently toward the south, indicating that the sand came from the north.
_Consequently, this enormous volume of sand would have to have been transported a considerable distance, perhaps at least 320 km to 480 km (200 or 300 miles). At the current velocities envisaged sand could be transported that distance in a matter of a few days!

SOME MAINSTREAM INFO ON SEDIMENT ORIGINS
A review of fine-grained sediment origins, characteristics, transport and deposition
https://sp.lyellcollection.org/content/15/1/17
_Fine-grained sediments and sedimentary rocks make up as much as 75% of the present and past sedimentary records. River [or Tsunami?] discharge is the largest single source of fine-grained material, followed by biological, volcanic and aeolian sources.

HOW DELICATE FOSSILS FORMED
Are soft-sediment trace fossils (ichnofossils) a time problem for the Flood?
https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j20 ... ion_detail
_... zones of rapid lithification alternated with Flood deposition, thus temporarily protecting deeply-buried organisms from the immobilizing effects of thick sediment overburden. This allowed for the simultaneous bioturbation of considerable thicknesses of Flood sediment soon after its deposition.

Lloyd
Posts: 5428
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat May 29, 2021 4:33 am

63010

PANGAEA BROKE UP AFTER, NOT DURING(?), THE GREAT FLOOD

MEGAFAUNA STRATA
I got in touch with Mike Fischer again from https://www.newgeology.us/ . I guess the main reason he thinks the asteroid strike that broke up the former supercontinent, Pangaea, occurred after the Great Flood, instead of during it, is that dinosaur fossils occur only in or below the Cretaceous strata and megamammal fossils occur only (?) above it, so the large mammals apparently replaced the large dinosaurs after the Flood. He thinks it required several centuries for the megamammals to attain large enough populations to show up in the rock record. That's kind of persuasive, but there must have been megamammals before the Flood too, so I wonder why they wouldn't show up in or below the Cretaceous strata.

CHICXULUB CRATER
He thinks the Chicxulub impact of Mexico occurred sometime after the Great Flood, when the land had dried out, but before the Africa/India impact that broke up Pangaea. On this webpage https://www.newgeology.us/presentation17.html he explains with the help of illustrations that the Chicxulub impact was at a low angle that is now aligned almost north and south, whereas the impact must have initially been east and west in the directions that meteors/asteroids would strike. The angle must have changed from E/W to N/S after the Africa/India impact caused rapid continental drift, which pulled Mexico westward while semi-rotating the Yucatan, behind it.

SHOCK HARDENED FLOOD SEDIMENTS
Mike says sedimentary strata can retain water and heat for a long time and that the shockwaves from the asteroid impact on Pangaea would have wrung out the strata like a sponge, causing them to harden quickly. So that could have happened centuries after the Flood.

1. SEDIMENTARY BASINS, 2. THE GRAND CANYON, 3. RADIOACTIVITY
1. Michael Oard has said that the deep sedimentary basins around the world were likely formed from meteor/asteroid impacts during the Great Flood. Basins in the sedimentary layers from the Cretaceous and on down would have formed during the Flood. I don't know if there are any basins above the Cretaceous, but they would have formed after the Flood. Mike Fischer says the strata above the Cretaceous are not as hard, because there was less lime, because CO2 had already degassed from the atmosphere during the Flood when much atmosphere was lost.
2. The Grand Canyon must have formed during the asteroid impact at Africa/India on Pangaea centuries after the Flood, because it eroded when the Colorado plateau uplifted due to rapid continental drift. That means there was a significant Flood at that time, which was caused mainly, I guess, by the motion of the Americas away from Africa and Eurasia, which caused Pacific Ocean waters to flood the continents. The strata would have started hardening from the impact shockwaves, but they must not have hardened enough yet to prevent the canyons from eroding.
3. Walter Brown's model for the origin of radioactive elements in Earth's crust would fit into Mike's Shock Dynamics model. So radioactive elements didn't form until centuries after the Flood. It was due to ionization from continents sliding over the Moho layer apparently. I'll have to check where Earth's radioactive elements are most numerous. Uranium was first located out West, I think.

SHOCK DYNAMICS EVENT = YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT
Offhand, it seems that those two events were the same. Both the Chicxulub impact and the SDE/YDE had iridium spikes etc and both occurred after the Great Flood, instead of one occurring during the Flood. Eventually, I hope the Saturn System breakup will fit into this story somewhere. I expect it to be after the YDE about 2300 BC.

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