Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
Poppa Tom
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2019 10:05 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Poppa Tom » Sun Nov 12, 2023 8:02 pm

JP Michael wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:18 am I just want to point out, before I go into depth about some of the matters raised by Lloyd, how important it is to compare lexical items to textual frequency and contextual semantic range of meaning. No end of fallacies occur by utilising lexical data alone, hence why I also bothered to give the relevant Strongs reference numbers for each lexical item so any interested researcher can follow up word frequencies and contextual semantic nuances for relevant words of interest using concordance searches. Just because a word can have a certain meaning or originates from a particular etymological derivation, doesn't mean it should have that meaning in a given textual context or that etymological derivation still applies. Each item needs to be assessed in their relevant contexts so as to avoid erroneous or fallacious conclusions.
Lloyd wrote: Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:30 pm "Har’el (H2025 with spelling variant H741) – Hearth-altar, lit. god-hill."
Does el = God and Har = hill?
Sounds like the Saturn configuration, i.e. the hill or mountain that appeared to reach up to Saturn at the north polar axis, where the pole star is now.
This word occurs only in Ezekiel 43:15-16, referring only to the altar-hearth of Ezekiel's temple complex. It would be a fallacy to invest too much into its disputed orthography, but I posted it as an item of limited interest.
Lloyd wrote:"Ophel (H652 from H651) - Darkness, of the type that falls down as divine punishment."
Does el = God and Oph = cataclysmic darkness?
Sounds like the time of chaos during the Saturn system breakup.
Ophel is not derived from a compound; it is a separate root in and of itself. The word occurs 9 times in the Hebrew corpus: Job 3:6; 10:22 (x2); 23:17; 28:3; 30:26; Psalm 11:2; 91:6; Isaiah 29:18. Of these 9 items, only three have arguable association with cataclysm (Job 23:17; 30:26; Psalm 91:6). Of those three, Job 30:26, read in context to the whole chapter, is definitely associated with other cataclysmic concepts.
Lloyd wrote:"Galgal (H1534) – Whirlwind; wheel. From a root meaning to go around in circles."
"Gal (H1530 from 1556) – Billow, mound, heap, wave, gushing water."
Sounds like the Great Flood cataclysm during the Saturn system breakup.
The issue is demonstrating that gal(gal) is associated with the Flood narrative.Whilst never used directly of the Mabbul of Genesis 7-8, it is used of cataclysmic forces in Psalm 77:18 and again in Isaiah 17:13. In Jeremiah 47:3 it is used in association with a flooding torrent (verse 2), but the context with 'chariots' infers that 'wheels' and not 'whirlwinds' is intended.
Lloyd wrote:"Tehom (H8415 from H1949) - Deep sea, from a root meaning roaring, loud or tumultuous."
Brigit said it only means the sea, but if other early cultures equated it with the sky, then that may still have been the original meaning.
Brigit's analysis of Tehom could have gone much further than it did. One needs to establish from the usage in Tehom that it did mean a celestial sense of the roaring, black sea of space, as opposed to the roaring, black seas of water, rather than simply could have meant it. I think Brigit's points stand. I will delve further into this later as I do not have time to analyse it right now.
Lloyd wrote:"Liviathan (H3882 from H3867) – Leviathan, dragon, sea monster. From a root meaning to twist or tie tightly together in a circle. See Job 41:1-34."
Sounds like the "ouroboros": a circular symbol depicting a snake, or less commonly a dragon, swallowing its tail, as an emblem of wholeness or infinity, which is the same as the Aten, the enclosure around early Saturn formed by the cometary debris from Venus.
I actually had the same impression and figured this could use its own in-depth study. There have been many attempts throughout the history of Biblical scholarship to identify exactly what the Hebrew 'leviathan' was, and I feel this could do with a whole new study in the light of Peratt and van der Sluij's plasma cosmology. Again, I will attempt to develop this specific study further at a later time.
Lloyd wrote:"Saraph (H8314 from H8313) - Fiery serpent. See also under spirit/wind/angel."
Sounds like the dragon = comet Venus.
I do not think this can be so easily equated with an equals sign. This point needs to be argued, not simply equated.
Vertical interesting

https://youtu.be/XjQQ_3xJ2lg?si=BoWHYHMRgn2_dG62

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Nov 18, 2023 7:36 pm

244230

BIBLICAL GODS, LORDS ETC

Tom, I checked out the video you linked to. Pretty interesting. It says Yahwey and El Shaddai don't mean "God", but powerful beings or "Lords" who owned Lands and the people there. Jesus' name is said to be Yahushuah, which means Yahweh saves.

In the story about Lot and Sodom and Gomorrah, beings who visited Lot were called men, angels and Lord God. I think it means the angels looked like men and they came in the name of their Lord, the owner of the land.

It's nice to hear that you agree that Leviathan seems to mean Ouroboros, the serpent biting its own tail, which Saturnists take to represent the circular enclosure in which the Saturn system appeared at the north celestial pole.

I look forward to more of your discussions.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:32 pm

244238

PANGAEA BREAKUP VS. EARTH EXPANSION

YOUNG EARTH
On Tuesday, Mar 28, 2023 at 11:45 am, Aardwolf wrote in defense of Expanding Earth theory.
__Lloyd wrote: Firstly, dating methods are mostly imaginary: https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ng-methods
__Aardwolf replied: Maybe so, although I wasn’t relying on any particular dating methods. The Earth is old as far as I am concerned and supported by many other things aside from scientific methods.
__Lloyd wrote: Secondly, sedimentary rock strata were obviously all deposited over a short time period by a Great Flood just a few thousand years ago: https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substack.com/p/1
__Aardwolf replied: Obviously? Sorry, not to me.

__Me Now: He apparently didn't read my proofs against dating methods at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ng-methods or at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substack.com/p/1 which latter explains that: 1) individual types of sedimentary rock strata could not have been deposited over thousands or millions of years, but could only have been deposited rapidly after being sorted out from major flood waters at decreasing flow rates; 2) there is too little erosion between strata and almost no bioturbation, which would both be extreme if strata deposited gradually.

RAPID EVOLUTION
__Lloyd wrote: Thirdly, the megasequences of the sedimentary rock record indicate that a large asteroid broke up Pangaea during the Flood, causing rapid continental drift and the formation of mountain ranges: http://newgeology.us/
__Aardwolf replied: ... there are a few queries that I cant see that this {Pangaea Breakup} theory explains;
1) Why are marsupials confined to Australia with a few in America? How did the asteroid manage to fully encapsulate this entire class of animals (and mostly exclude mammals)? 2,000 years wouldn’t have been enough time to evolve that way so how did that happen?

__Me Now: Wal Thornhill has suggested that electrical forces during cataclysms can cause rapid evolution. So the marsupials in Australia may have evolved from just a few ancestors after the Great Flood. Australia may also have been an island within Pangaea before the asteroid impact shoved it to where it is now. There seems to be good evidence for Noah's Ark, so a few marsupials could have been spared from the Flood there. When sea levels dropped after the Flood, due to Ice Age glaciation, the marsupials could have gotten to Australia via Indonesia when they were much closer together. Most marsupials could have died out in other locations due to competition from other mammals.

GAPS BETWEEN SAME POPULATIONS
__Aardwolf replied: 2) From the paper I linked { http://aoi.com.au/NUSite/NU004.htm }, why are there Carya species only found opposite side of the Pacific? Why are coconuts origins in Southeast Asia & South America? Why are mountainous Castanopsis only found in North America & China? How does Pangea with these coasts separated by either 16,000 miles of sea or 8,000 miles of land have mutual origins?

Me Now: Re Figures at http://aoi.com.au/NUSite/NU004.htm (PS, the site is by David Noel, one of the EE theorists I reviewed 6 years ago.)
__Re Fig. 4.1, south Africa, south Asia and Australia were connected in Pangaea.
__Re Fig. 4.2, Eurasia was connected to North America.
__Re Fig. 4.3, west, central Africa was connected to northeast South America.
__Re Fig. 4.4*, there was a land gap between southern South America and Australia.
__Re Fig. 4.5*, same as 4.4 (with a land gap).
__Re Fig. 4.6, same as 4.1.
__Re Fig. 4.7, same as 4.1.
__Re Fig. 4.8*, same as 4.1 and 4.4 (with a land gap).
__Re Fig. 4.9*, south Africa was connected to south Asia and then there was a land gap to central America.
__Re Fig. 4.10, central America was connected to south Eurasia and north Africa.
__Re Fig. 4.11*, there was a land *gap between North America and south Asia
__Re Fig. 4.12*, same as 4.11.
__Re Fig. 4.13*, same as 4.9.
__Re Fig. 4.14*, there was a land gap between south Asia and northwestern South America.
__Re Fig. 4.14*, south Africa was connected to New Zealand, but there was a land gap between them and southern South America.
__Summarizing the above, on Pangaea there was a land gap between locations of about 9 of the 14 tree types listed. That means the trees are found at locations that used to be on the supercontinent, but at 2 different locations there, with a gap between them. The gaps may have been filled in the past and developed later. If conditions become unfavorable in a central part of an extensive band of trees, naturally there will then be two locations of them. That's not unthinkable.

EVIDENCE OF EXPANSION OR BREAKUP
__Aardwolf replied: 3) You state there is no evidence of expansion in the rest of the solar system ... so, if an asteroid split apart our crust why hasn’t the same happened anywhere else? It only created 1,000 km basin on Earth. The moon has a 1,600 km basin with zero crust movement? Mars has many 500 km basins but no crust movement. Venus has a 300 km basin with no crust movement. Mercury has a 1,500 km basin and it’s tiny. If Earth received an impact that shattered its crust, Mercury should have been blown apart. Why is Earth crust so weak and everywhere else so stoic?

__Me Now: Charles Chandler explained Electric Geophysics at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6199 . He found that Earht's Moho layer is likely only 1 meter thick and is caused by tidal forces from the Moon. No other rocky planet in the solar system has a large moon, like Earth's Moon. There's some indication that Venus may have a similar crust to that of the Earth. Pluto has a moon that's large compared to the size of Pluto, but it may be too cold on both bodies to produce a Moho layer on Pluto. Charles said impacts don't tend to blow bodies apart, because the forces are mostly electrical, as in a thermonuclear explosion.

DINOSAURS
__Aardwolf replied: 4) And of course the classic, how did the large dinosaurs thrive on planet they couldn't stand up on?

__Me Now: Gravity may depend on electrical conditions. Also tidal forces may have been involved. If Saturn was about 3 million miles from Earth with Venus and Mars between them, the tidal forces, maybe combined with electrical forces, may have greatly reduced the force of gravity on Earth.

SOURCE OF MASS FOR EXPANSION
__Lloyd wrote: In 2017 I evaluated 3 or 4 different Expanding Earth theories and they all failed to provide a known means for expansion. They all required hypothetical processes that are not observed.
__Aardwolf replied: Well, that’s just true of all theories. There’s no accretion observed anywhere. In fact when material like Saturn’s rings or the asteroid belt are observed the opposite is true, the material actively separates. And unlike other theories we do observe expansion on Earth, just look at the rifts which are observed and measured and earthquakes which always shear or separate creating more land. Subduction on the other is not observed and measured, merely theorised. The mainstream just “knows” it’s happening and one day they will find it, probably hiding in the same place as dark matter.

__Me Now: The Pangaea Breakup theory doesn't require subduction, but there is evidence of some subduction. Rifts and earthquakes don't expand the whole Earth. Satellite measurements show there is no discernable expansion.

__Aardwolf replied: Regarding EE, I would argue the matter is just protons received from the Sun which provides more than enough to grow the Earth significantly over time. We already know protons penetrate the magnetosphere and into the atmosphere. Where does it all go after that? Travelling at 500 km/s it seems possible it just penetrates the crust.

__Me Now: The satellite laser measurements still show no expansion.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Nov 21, 2023 10:28 pm

244277

Looks like this forum has lost a lot of viewers.
Below are the posts I made while the forum was down since April. My first free online book is done, called CATACLYSMIC EARTH HISTORY, at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/cataclys ... th-history . The second one is mostly complete, called ANCIENT MYTHS ARE EARTH HISTORY, at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/ancient- ... ry-history . The following posts are in reverse chronological order (newest to oldest).

REVISED ANCIENT CHRONOLOGY
Remove Some Centuries or Many Centuries?
OCT 31
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... chronology

PRE-WORK ON ANCIENT CATACLYSMS
Funday & FutureSchool Forums
OCT 21
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... cataclysms

MEDITERRANEAN BRONZE AGE
Ended c. 950 BC after the Trojan War
OCT 10
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... bronze-age

SODOM & GOMORRAH METEORIC AIRBURST
Maybe c. 1700 BC
OCT 1
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... c-airburst

EVIDENCE FOR THE EXODUS
1446 BC, End of 12th Dynasty
SEP 24
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... the-exodus

MORE BIBLE HISTORY: JOSEPH TO CANAAN
Sojourn in Egypt, Enslavement, Plagues, Conquest of Canaan
SEP 22
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -to-canaan

BIBLE HISTORY IS MOSTLY RIGHT
Jacob, Joseph and the Other 11 Sons of Jacob in Egypt
SEP 21
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... stly-right

ANCIENT CIVILIZATION TIMELINES
David Rohl's Chronology
SEP 17
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -timelines

THOTH ON ANCIENT CIVILIZATION
For Reference
SEP 10
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... vilization

PANGAEA BREAKUP UPDATE
Book 1 is Complete
SEP 3
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... kup-update

CHONDRITIC METEORITES
Chondrules Resource
SEP 3
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... meteorites

AUGUST 2023
HALLOWEEN & YOUNGER DRYAS - Part 2
Comet Encke, Taurids, Catastrophism.com, Conflagration, Flood
AUG 20
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... s-part-19a

HALLOWEEN & YOUNGER DRYAS - Part 1
Halloween Commemorates Those Who Died in Cataclysms
AUG 20
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... dryas-part

NO SUPER-ADVANCED ANCIENT TECH
At Least Not Yet -- Gobekli Tepe, Sumer, Egypt, Tiahuanaco
AUG 17
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... r-advanced

DINOSAURS LAST STAND
North America
AUG 9
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... last-stand

CHARLES KOS VIDEOS
Ancient Tech, Religion, Mythology, Geology, Cosmology
AUG 8
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... kos-videos

LANGUAGE ORIGINS - 2
Language Originated Right After the Golden Age
AUG 6
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -origins-2

LANGUAGE ORIGINS - 1
End of Saturn's Golden Age (+ Rise of Phoenicians)
AUG 6
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -origins-1

MY 2 NEW SUBSTACK BOOKS
One Is Nearly Finished - the Other Is Half Finished
AUG 1
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... tack-books

2300 BC IMPACTS & MEGATSUNAMIS
Indian Ocean Burckle Crater, 2 sites in Pacific Ocean, 2 Mediterranean Sea Craters
JUL 24
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... gatsunamis

OCEANS, AIR & LIVING CREATURES
Dinosaurs, Giant Bugs, Giant Mammals
JUL 20
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -creatures

OZ GEO VOLCANISM VIDEOS
OzGeographics Videos on Volcanism & Supervolcanoes
JUL 18
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ism-videos

POST Y.D. TSUNAMIS & IMPACTS
OzGeographics Videos: 2300 BC Floods?
JUL 17
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... nd-impacts

ARTIFACTS IN COAL NOT ANCIENT
Coal Reformed around Modern Objects
JUL 15
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ot-ancient

HISTORY OF THE SATURN TRAIN
From Outer to Inner Solar System & When It Broke Up
JUL 7
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... turn-train

THE GOLDEN AGE
The Triunes, Saturn, Venus & Mars, between Floods
JUN 28
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... een-floods

ANCIENT MYTHS
Combining Saturn Myth Video Images with Best Thoth Article
JUN 18
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... st-article

THE GOLDEN AGE - EYE OF ZEUS
Eye in the Sky, Crescent, Thunderbolt, Saturn, Jupiter
JUN 18
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ye-of-zeus

SATURN THEORY FROM THOTH
Copied from Thoth Newsletter to Thunderbolts Forum
JUN 15
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... from-thoth

THOTH MYTHOLOGY ARTICLES
Myths Derive from Ancient Cataclysms
JUN 4
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... y-articles

THUNDERBOLTS MYTHOLOGY VIDEOS
Talbott, Cochrane et al on Ancient Cataclysm Myths
JUN 4
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ogy-videos

CATACLYSMIC VOLCANISM
Plus Articles Summaries & My Comments
MAY 24
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -volcanism

COLUMBIA RIVER BASALT GROUP
NW USA, Flooded Lava
MAY 19
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... salt-group

SUPERVOLCANOES
Caused by Rapid Continental Drift Late in the Flood
MAY 11
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... rvolcanoes

FROZEN MAMMOTHS
Before or After the Megafloods?
MAY 4
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... n-mammoths

APRIL 2023
YOUNGER DRYAS CATACLYSMS
Which Ended the Ice Age c. 2,600 BC
APR 30
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ryas-event

PANGAEA SUPERCONTINENT FORMATION
Before Life Came To It
APR 7
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -formation

THE FOSSIL RECORD
Overview
APR 3
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... sil-record

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Dec 02, 2023 10:17 pm

244609

THOTH ARTICLES 1998-2003

THOTH 1:1 - 2:16 https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... oth-11-216
THOTH 2:17 - 4:13 https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... th-217-413
THOTH 4:14 - 7:7 https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... oth-414-77

Below are the article titles and authors.

THOTH 1:1 - 2:16 https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... oth-11-216
THOTH V1 01+) SATURN THEORY OVERVIEW ... David Talbott
THOTH V1 05+) THE MYTH OF THE GOLDEN AGE ... David Talbott
THOTH V1 07+) THE MYTH OF THE UNIVERSAL MONARCH ... David Talbott
THOTH V1 10) SATURN: THE ANCIENT SUN GOD ... David Talbott
THOTH V1 11+) THE MYTH OF THE CENTRAL SUN ... David Talbott
THOTH V1 15) VELIKOVSKY AND PLANETARY CATASTROPHE ... David Talbott
THOTH V1 17+) VELIKOVSKY'S COMET VENUS ... David Talbott
THOTH V2-07) THE LOGIC OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ... David Talbott
------------ MORE THAN ONE TYPHON ... Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V2-08) A BRIEF ORIENTATION ... Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-09) ON THE USE OF HISTORICAL EVIDENCE ... David Talbott
THOTH V2-10) THE MEANING OF MYTH ... Ev Cochrane
------------ THE GOLDEN AGE ... Dave Talbott and Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V2-11) NOTES ON THE COMPARATIVE METHOD ... Ev Cochrane
------------ VENUS AS THE DOVE ... Robert Lugibihl, Comments by Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V2-12) GROUNDRULES FOR RECONSTRUCTING ANCIENT EVENTS David Talbott
THOTH V2-13) RESPONSE TO A CRITIC ... . Dave Talbott
------------ VENUS AND VELIKOVSKY ... kronia listers
THOTH V2-14) HEROES OF THE ILIAD ... . David Talbott
THOTH V2-15) THE TWO FACES OF "PLAUSABILITY" ... . Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-16) THE COMET VENUS AND THE COMPARATIVE METHOD ... Dave Talbott

THOTH 2:17 - 4:13 https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... th-217-413
THOTH V2-17) ON STABLE AND UNSTABLE WORLDS ... Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-18) THE WARRING GODDESS ATHENA ... Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-19) VISUALIZING COLLINEAR SYSTEMS ... Dave Talbott
THOTH V2-20) THE "TERRIFYING GLORY" OF VENUS ... Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 01) MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE: Part I of II By Ev Cochrane
------------ MERCURY IN MYTHOLOGY ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 02) MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE: Part II ... .Ev Cochrane
------------ SACRIFICE AND AMNESIA ... . Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 04) POLAR CONFIGURATION DISCUSSION ... from kroniatalk
THOTH 1999 08) SATURN CONFIGURATION DISCUSSION ... Wal Thornhill, Robert Lugibihl, Dwardu Cardona
------------ ANOMOLOUS OUTBURSTS ... . Ev Cochrane, Amy Acheson, Wal Thornhill
THOTH 1999 09) SATURNIAN STUDIES ... by Dave Talbott and Kronians
THOTH 1999 10) SATURN AND VENUS ... .Ted Bond, Ev Cochrane, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 11) COSMIC SYMBOLS ... . By Dave Talbott
------------ RITUAL BALL GAMES ... . Dave Davis, Dwardu Cardona, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 12) BY JOVE ... . by Dave Talbott
------------ ASTROBIOLOGY ... . Ev Cochrane, Dwardu Cardona, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 13) STAR WORDS ... by Ted Bond, Roger Wescott, Ev Cochrane, Dave Talbott
THOTH 1999 14+) THE MYTHIC ROOTS OF LANGUAGE ... by Dave Talbott
------------ CATASTROPHIC WORD ORIGINS ... . Kroniatalk Discussion
THOTH 1999 17+) THE DEMANDS OF THE SATURNIAN CONFIGURATION THEORY ... Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V4-03) CONJUNCTION THEMES ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-04) THE NATURAL REFERENCES OF MYTH ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-05) WORLD MOUNTAIN ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-06) PATTERNS OF HUMAN MEMORY ... . by Michel Tavir and Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-07) MEMORIES AND SYMBOLS OF PLANETARY UPHEAVAL ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-08) RECONSTRUCTING THE SATURN MODEL ... . by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-09) THUNDERBOLTS OF THE GODS: an intro ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-10) CRACK IN EINSTEIN'S PEDESTAL ... . by Wal Thornhill
------------ LABYRINTH AND FORTRESS OF THE GODS ... .by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-11) LABYRYNTHS ... . Kronia discussion with Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-12) MALE GODS ... .by Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs
THOTH V4-13) A UNIFIED THEORY ... .by Dave Talbott
CARNIVAL ... A Kroniatalk Discussion

THOTH 4:14 - 7:7 https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... oth-414-77
THOTH V4-14) SATURN'S REVOLVING CRESCENT ... by Dave Talbott
------------ LOCALIZATION OF THE WARRIOR-HERO ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-15) ONE STORY TOLD ROUND THE WORLD ... by Dave Talbott
------------ HUMAN NATURE AND SATURNIAN RITUAL ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V4-16) EGYPTIAN WHITE CROWN ... by Dave Talbott
------------ RENS' OUTLINE OF MYTHICAL THEMES ... by Rens van der Sluijs, Ev Cochrane, Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-01) YEAR TWO THOUSAND AND ONE ... .by Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-04) THE THUNDERBOLT IN MYTH AND SYMBOL ... by Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-05) OF THUNDERGODS AND CELESTIAL MARVELS ... Dave Talbott
THOTH V5-06) POLAR CONFIGURATION AND COSMIC THUNDERBOLT ... Dave Talbott
2002 THOTH V6-01) THE CAPTURE QUESTION AGAIN ... Dwardu Cardona
THOTH V6-02) LIGHTNING DOGS ... . discussion with Rens van der Sluijs
THOTH V6-04) FROM: THE MANY FACES OF VENUS ... Ev Cochrane
THOTH V6-07) SERPENTS OF CREATION ... Dave Talbott
THOTH V6-08) BIRTH OF VENUS ... . discussion with Ken Moss, Dwardu Cardona, and Wal Thornhill
THOTH V7-07) MYTH ... Ev Cochrane

Cargo
Posts: 695
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:02 am

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Cargo » Mon Dec 04, 2023 6:30 am

There's a lot to read here usually, but I just could not get over this part, which seems like completely out of wack with everything else.
Miles decided that Velikovsky and his colleagues were conspirators who were in a project to deceive their readers. Later he decided that Talbott and his colleagues were/are also conspirators.
https://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/php ... 9297#p9297

I'm not sure who this defamation is from, maybe {CRITIQUING CATASTROPHISTS} or whatever. But easily this is slime does nothing but dirty the pool. Or is this like for real.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
"You know not what. .. Perhaps you no longer trust your feelings,." Michael Clarage
"Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars." Wal Thornhill

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Dec 07, 2023 6:03 pm

MATHIS & CORRUPTION IN SCIENCE
#Cargo: Mathis seems to be pretty smart when it comes to math, science, art and maybe some politics, but he often seems paranoid and jumps to unsound conclusions about people's motives etc. When he first published his suspicions about Velikovsky and later Talbott et al, I commented on it on this forum somewhere. Velikovsky did seem to have a lot of influence, that most people wouldn't have, to be able to get his books published, but I see no evidence that he was involved in a scientific conspiracy. It seems pretty certain that Velikovsky sincerely believed all of the things he said in print. Most of us can't know if people with influence are involved in conspiracies or not, so we have to settle for what impressions we get from the media. As I said at the time, I seriously doubt that catastrophists are involved in fraud or conspiracy. We pretty much all know though that there is corruption in science. What I think society needs in order to end major corruption in science and other fields is something like Sociocracy, which is a group decision-making method that seems to be the best scientifically proven method available so far for groups to make sound decisions. Society needs media that portray scientific theories accurately as theories instead of facts, such as the big bang, black holes, gravitational dominance, expanding universe etc. Major science fraud has been holding back progress for over a century.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Dec 10, 2023 2:42 am

244831

{FIRST AGE WAS IN DARKNESS -- Interesting excerpts from FLARE STAR, by Dwardu Cardona, p. 155ff}
Let me start by repeating what Axel Firsoff stated back in 1967, that "reduced luminosity, as such, is not a barrier to life." As he explained: "It only means that a planet corresponding to the Earth in surface conditions will have to orbit the star closer, as is otherwise likely with lower masses."1 And this, too, is in keeping with our postulate of Earth as a previous satellite of the sub-brown dwarf that was proto-Saturn. Earth's primeval age of darkness is explainable by the fact that brown dwarf stars, especially sub-brown dwarfs, emit only a dim light. Speaking of the brown dwarf designated Epsilon Indi B, Alan MacRobert described it as glowing "very dimly" but "red-hot."2 Nor is Epsilon Indi B unique in this respect. Generally speaking, all brown dwarfs "appear as a faint glow, like an ember from a fire that gives off both heat and light energy as it dims."3 And this, too, is in keeping with the mytho-historical record, since, despite the darkness there described, the ancients also remembered the Saturnian sun as having glowed feebly in the sky.4
... Hindu literature even speaks of Brahma/Saturn5 as having "moved about like a glowworm."6 ... Namandu, ... {called} the First One of the South American Guarani and the Mbaya, was said to have been "lit by the reflection of his own inner self," even "though the sun did not yet exist."7 Called Heart of Heaven,8 God was described in the Popul Vuh as having been surrounded with his own light. "In the very beginning, there was only the still sky and the still sea {in the sky?}. Nothing moved... [There was] no sun or moon to give light. Only God was surrounded with His own light, and He was in the heart of the still, dark sky."9 The God in question in the above was the Mayan Kukulkan, the Feathered Serpent, whom the Aztecs called Quetzalcoatl, also known as Hurakan, whom we have already identified as a representative of {Saturn}.10
... {I}n studying various species of ferns, phytochrome-3, which has been described as "a chimaera of the red/far-red light receptor" in plants, "may have had a central role in the divergence and proliferation of fern species under low-light canopy conditions."11 This, too, has special meaning for our enfolding scenario because brown dwarf stars are predominantly known for radiating in that very specific wavelength, shimmering in "bright infrared light."12 This was found for the brown dwarf designated Epsilon Indi B, glowing "at a strong 11th magnitude in the 2-micron infrared band."13 According to David Archibald, the anatomy of the earliest mammals "suggests that they were largely nocturnal." 16 ... {Pre-}dinosaurs, too, were nocturnal creatures. As Dan Eatherley disclosed: "The gates to Jurassic Park have opened a little wider, with the recreation of an eye protein from an archosaur.... The archosaur protein works well in low light, suggesting that these creatures may have hunted at night."17 The eye protein in question is rhodopsin which, in modern animals, acts as a molecular switch in response to light of a particular wavelength. Studies of the DNA sequence of rhodopsin genes {are} found in ... alligators, birds, and fish....18 "Surprisingly, the archosaur rhodopsin functioned well at low light levels, more like the rhodopsins of modern mammals than of reptiles. That suggests the ancestral archosaur had good night vision and may even have been nocturnal...."19 More than that, in keeping with the dim red light radiated by brown dwarf stars, the recreated archosaur rhodopsin was found to respond best "to slightly redder colors than the light that most modern vertebrates sense."20
1 V. A. Firsoff. op. cit., p. 96 (emphasis added).
2 A. MacRobert. "The Nearest Brown Dwarf." Sky & Telescope (April 2003), p. 26.
3 "Astronomers Find Jupiter-Like Weather on Brown Dwarfs," Science Daily. electronic magazine (May 27, 2002).
4 D. Cardona, op. cit., pp. 283-286.
5 For Brahma as Saturn see ibid., pp. 131, 145, 196, 216, 232, 233, 284, 309, 439, 446.
6 Linga Purana 1:59:6-9.
7 J. Bierhorst, The Red Swan: Myths and Tales of the American Indians (N.Y., 1976), p. 38.
8 D. Cardona, op. cit., pp. 214, 438.
9 D. A. Leeming, The World of Myth (N. Y., 1990), p. 60.
10 D. Cardona. op. cit., pp. 37, 38-39, 59, 312, 314-317, 435-437, 438-439.
11 H. Kawai, et al., "Responses of Ferns to Red Light are Mediated by an Unconventional Photoreceptor." Nature (January 16, 2003) as retrieved from an Internet posting dated January 25, 2003 (emphasis added); for more on photosynthesis during the Saturnian age of darkness, see D. Cardona, op. cit., pp. 291-293.
12 Science Daily. electronic magazine (May 27. 2002).
13 A. MacRobert. foe. cit.
So, likewise, with the brown dwarf designated 2MASS 0415-0935, which has been found to be glowing "with only two millionths of the Sun's luminosity - almost entirely in the infrared."14 ... By the twenty-first century, however, interest shifted to planets orbiting such dwarf stars. "... {I}t now looks as though these dim red suns could harbour most of the Galaxy's life-bearing worlds."15 ...
14 D. Tyte ll. foe. cit.
15 K. Croswe ll . "'Red. Willing and Able." New Scientist (January 27 . 2001), p. 29.
16 J. D. Archibald, Dinosaur Extinction and the End of an Era (N. Y., 1996), p. 27.
17 D. Eatherley, "Ancient Eye Resurrected," New Scientist (September 28. 2002), p. 19.
18 Ibid.
19 Ibid.
20 K. A. Svitil. "The Nocturnal Reptiles of Triassic Park," Discover (January 2003 Special Issue).
{AGE OF DARKNESS} The following interesting excerpts from Aeon articles are from this link.
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... zoom_cat=2
__The Demands of the Saturnian Configuration Theory
THE AGE OF DARKNESS. My version of the Saturnian scenario posits that man's earliest memory of the sky above him was one in which the planet Saturn was the only visible celestial body which was seen looming large in the sky in an all-pervading darkness - an endless night.
__Prelude to Creation
With a sun that shone but dimly red that neither rose nor set, that neither waxed nor waned, ancient man had no means of telling the passage of time. [27] This was an era which ancient man remembered as a timeless age of darkness. And yet, this darkness should not be understood as having been total.
{PURPLE SKY}
__The Age of of Purple Darkness
In a hymn of the Rigveda there appears the line: "Thou, O Agni, art Varuna, when born." [31] Thus Agni, as Varuna, is Saturn. The Purple in the Darkness. As I shall show at length in the longer essay, if the age of darkness ever existed, it would not have been for long in palaeontological terms. An age, or ages, of visible light would have been the rule. At all times, ultraviolet and infrared have been, and are, required for all links in the terrestrial food chain. This suggests a form of light that was low in visible wavelengths but high in ultraviolet and infrared, being, as a result, stronger in violet and dark red than in the other visible wavelengths. Without sunlight to scatter pale blue in the sky, it is conceivable that the sky would have been colored a deep purple or magenta during the age of darkness.
{TIME}
__The Beginning of Time
If what was postulated in "Darkness and the Deep"(1) actually transpired, it would follow that, during the age of darkness there described, man would have had no way of telling time. With an indistinct Saturnian orb half-shielded within a nebular cloud perpetually suspended overhead, and with the Sun, the Moon, and the stars still apparently absent from the sky, there would have been nothing on which ancient man could have focused that would have enabled him to calculate the passage of time. __Darkness and the Deep
{T}he Chibcha Indians of Colombia tell us that, "in the beginning," everything was dark.(109) In South America, myths of the primeval darkness are quite widespread. As H. Osborne writes: Some mythological cycles feature a primitive age of darkness before the existence of the sun, when human beings lived in a state of anarchy without the techniques of civilized life. Sometimes myths in this category appear to embody a confused racial memory of a hunting and food-gathering stage.
{SKIN COLOR CHANGE}
__The Road to Saturn
Of miraculous colored stones of light, which could be understood as the fluorescence activated by ultraviolet light on certain minerals, there were also some hints in the myths. The most rewarding evidence, however, came from a particular source which claimed that, during the age of darkness, the human skin was of different hue. Under ultraviolet light, it definitely would have been. Moreover, this source describes the awe with which men looked upon the changed color of their skin in the light of the unveiled Sun. In fact it is stated that humans did not easily get accustomed to this change....
enshrouded in dimness that would at best have appeared as that of the present pre-dawn sky. It was in this milieu that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons co-existed.
{RAINBOW}
__Forum
Coming now to Dwardu Cardona's interesting article concerning the age of darkness during Earth's association with Saturn,[3] the following odd bit of information might be of interest. It seems that Paleolithic cave paintings did not incorporate the colors blue and green. Only red, brown, orange, and yellow were used. Also, at a much later time, Xenophanes described rainbows as having only three colors: red, purple, and yellow. Aristotle, too, mentioned tri-colored rainbows. Democritus seemed to know only black, white, red, and yellow. Homer speaks of the wine-dark sea. Primitive Indo-European does not have words for all the colors.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Dec 16, 2023 6:55 pm

245044

AGE OF DARKNESS

I added to my previous post on the Age of Darkness above and added the updated version to my free online book, ANCIENT MYTHS ARE EARTH HISTORY, at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/publish/post/135627781

JUPITER PROBLEM

If anyone has good ideas about identifying Jupiter in ancient myths, please share here. I think I have Earth history fairly well figured out from about 6 or 7 thousand years ago to the present, except for at what point Jupiter first became visible. Here are some notes I'm working with, hoping to find good clues somewhere. I'll comment more at the end.

turquoise serpent
Metamorphic Star p. 287

SATURN THEORY, OVERVIEW (Parts 1-5)
https://www.jordanmaxwell.com/images/do ... theory.pdf

PLANETARY GODS: THE GIANT POWERS OF CELESTIAL SKY WIELDERS (Saturn Theory Images etc)
https://beyondenigma.com/planetary-gods ... -wielders/

Cardona's Books
GOD STAR: Chaos, Age of Darkness, Dawn of Creation, Timeless Era, Polar Wandering, Polar Column
FLARE STAR: Ice Age & Age of Darkness
PRIMORDIAL STAR: Gigantism, Sudden Violence, Paradigms Lost, Epochal Ice
METAMORPHIC STAR: The Interglacials, The Clovis Comet, Start of a New Era, Celestial Unveilings, Serpentine Windings
NEWBORN STAR: The Ruin of Earlier Worlds, The Saturnian Connection, Blowup, The Creative Spiral, The Spiraling Enclosure, The Basis of Civilization, The Goddess

MY TIMELINE:
Saturn: Age of Darkness
Saturn: Great Flood
Triunes: Golden Age & Ice Age
Saturn or Jupiter at Younger Dryas
Jupiter? in Early Bronze Age

JUPITER {J=Jupiter, S=Saturn}
1>J = rejuv S, became visible with the disruption of the collinear system
2>Ovid said S was received in this land, J drove S from the sky, the people retained the name Saturnian.
3>IV thought S ruled the Golden Age, S was dying god, disruption of S caused deluge, post-deluge age was dominaed by J
4>Mars was reborn at end of S age after Venus carried off Mars to labyrinth, Theseus Mars killed S who was replaced by J
5>Hesiod's terrible Venus & Mars ordeal at first appearance of J
6>Macrobius' S = J, S = Ra, J = Osiris (mummy?), J replaces S during world-changing crisis, J = thundergod, Mars = thunderweapon
7>Zeus = J, victor with thunderbolts over Titans
8>Zeus = J hurled flaming bolts to defeat Typhon dragon, Enceladus, chaos powers

Thundergods and Thunderbolts [Aeon]
_From: Aeon VI:1 (Feb 2001) Ev Cochrane. It is the unanimous view of scholars exploring comparative religion that the peculiar mythical traditions surrounding thunderbolts and lightning originated in primitive man's awe before the thunderstorm. Davidson's opinion may be cited as representing the orthodox position: "To people of an earlier civilization, living in vulnerable houses of wood or in tents and caves, such a sight as this [a major thunderstorm] must have been terrifying indeed. It is not surprising then that thunder is visualized, in lands where storms are frequent, as the manifestation of divine power, and symbolized accordingly throughout the world." [

I plan to check further into this last title, by Ev & DN & WT.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Dec 24, 2023 10:06 pm

245103

Looks like I'm only getting about 50-some viewers a week now. I guess that's what happens when the forum shuts down for almost a year.

SEE THE PATTERN
I just noticed that the video channel, called See The Pattern, has a lot of good videos that seem possibly relevant to catastrophism. So I copied all of the titles along with hyperlinks in this post https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... rse-videos which I also added to my free online book at https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/cataclys ... th-history .

Below are some that I found to be especially interesting.

What Created Strange Rivers on the Moon? {Juergens' Rilles}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRvm28xbE00
I think Ralph Juergens wrote his 2-part article, Of the Moon and Mars, in 1975 in Pensee' magazine. This video covers some of his main points to show that many or all of the rilles on the Moon were formed electrically during cataclysms. It shows that there are also some smaller rilles on Mars. It doesn't mention rilles on Earth, but I think TPODs have shown that Meteor crater in Arizona and maybe Vredefort crater in South Africa appear to have electrically formed rilles near them too. Mars has a slight atmosphere, so maybe that's why its rilles are smaller than those on the Moon. And Earth's rilles are even smaller. Thornhill didn't think large bolides could survive the trip through Earth's atmosphere or its ionosphere, but Charles Chandler figured that the charge isn't strong enough to pulverize a large bolide. He said if there are microfissures into the interior, the bolide can break up in the atmosphere due to the loss of electrons, so the remaining positive internal charge would become too powerful to hold together.

Are Unstable Heavy Isotopes Created in situ in the Earth's Crust through ELECTRICAL DISCHARGES?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AONHQ65Zrmg
That does seem to explain veins of precious metals, uranium and other heavy metals in Earth's crust. During cataclysms, with volcanism, earthquakes, hurricanes and meteor impacts, electrical discharges in the crust would be especially severe.

Are Ores Created through Electrical Discharges Causing Transmutation in Veins?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXjL8-ViwEo
I haven't seen this one yet, but I think it explains the previous title in more detail.

I haven't seen the rest of the following videos yet, but the titles are interesting to me.

Rapid Stratification Experiments Raise Questions about how we Date Rock Layers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHwRmTlZW1s
My online book mentioned above has a few sections on this.

Quasar spotted which has EJECTED its entire Corona of PLASMA, confirming Black Holes OUTPUT Matter {except that black holes are actually quasars.}
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rd2gFbMYSeI

New Analysis Suggests Sub Neptune Class Worlds Are Turned Into Rocky Super Earths
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdMScPLs40Y
Charles and Jeffrey W used to discuss this idea and it seems sensible.

Biological Transmutation of Elements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbDBSsuNdyc
This was discussed quite a bit in the first few years of this forum especially. I participated.

Experimental Transmutation of Elements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Y4K7YjRnB4

The Rapid Fading of the Stingray Nebula Shows Stars are Powered Electrically
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocszG-JOwt0

A Simple Rule Creates SELF ORGANISING Atoms and Explains WHY some Elements are NOT Stable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRhhZ3_smLI

Discussing the Transmutation of Elements with the SAM Team: Part 1 Experiments
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2peIoqu7ho

Discussing the Transmutation of Elements with the SAM Team: Part 2 Biological
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKocpwYIvho

Examining the FRB locations reveals a HIDDEN PATTERN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuXgwnwpvlU

This seems to be the author's main website:
The Age of Open Source Science
https://etherealmatters.org/

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Jan 01, 2024 9:10 pm

245424

I just posted a new paper: WHEN DID JUPITER REPLACE SATURN? at
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ace-saturn

I quote several Saturn theorists to try to pin down some good clues. I end the paper with an image of the Saturn train's path and the following comments etc.

SATURN TRAIN'S PATH INTO THE SOLAR SYSTEM
[Image] I drew this a couple years ago I guess. I had a different version that I drew maybe ten years ago.

The Saturn train of Saturn, Venus, Mars & Earth came from the right, possibly from the Kuyper belt or beyond it. Jupiter wasn’t visible until Saturn departed, so it was either in front of Saturn, or behind the Earth, or it was in an orbit near its present orbit. In the image below you can see about what size the Sun looked when the train was at the orbits of the planets listed. From Eris to Neptune, the Sun would have looked very small and would have shed very little light on Earth. When it approached Uranus’ orbit, it would have started to look bigger and would likely have started to give off as much light as Saturn did.

The age of darkness ended when Saturn went nova, which was likely when it encountered the Sun’s heliospheric current sheet, which goes to about the orbit of Saturn. When the train reached the orbit of Saturn, after the nova there may have been enough sunlight to make Saturn appear dim during the day, but bright at night, when the Sun was not visible. It would have taken generations for the train to go from one planetary orbit to another, such as from Uranus’ orbit to Saturn’s and then to Jupiter’s etc.

Cardona thought Saturn left the train at the asteroid belt. If so, Earth might have frozen over, unless Jupiter was in the lead the whole time, so that Jupiter’s warmth would have kept Earth from freezing after Saturn left. Also, the linear arrangement of the train suggests to me that, if Jupiter was on the train, it was probably in the lead, since a linear train coming from outside the Kuyper belt would likely have been more stable with the heaviest object in front. Talbott has suggested that Jupiter accompanied Earth and Venus to an orbit close to Venus before moving back out to its present orbit. If Jupiter encountered Earth at the time of Abraham, then it may have been on an elliptical orbit between Saturn’s and Earth’s present orbit.

[Image] {The size of the Sun seen from different planetary orbits}
https://calgary.rasc.ca/sun_and_transits.htm

My best guess is that the Great Flood and the Pangaea supercontinent breakup occurred at the time of the Saturn nova, near Saturn’s present orbit, 5,300 years ago. The Golden Age then lasted about 700 years at lower latitudes while the Ice Age built up at higher latitudes and altitudes. Then the Younger Dryas impacts occurred about 4,600 years ago at the asteroid belt and ended the Ice Age and Saturn departed, ending the Golden Age. Civilizations began in commemoration of the Saturn alignment & to beg for Saturn’s return. The Jupiter escort lasted a few decades or centuries. Some major impacts occurred about 4,300 years ago causing megatsunamis (as described by OzGeographics Youtube channel). Jupiter was on an elliptical orbit apparently, bringing it back close to Earth in Abraham’s time, maybe 1953 BC, causing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah etc.

There were large objects in some of the meteor streams that resulted from Saturn’s nova, or from the train’s encounter with a planet or something. The Earth continued to get pummeled occasionally by lesser impacts, as it crossed the meteor streams twice a year. The November meteor streams were the worst, which led to the celebration of Halloween in commemoration of those who died from impacts. Comets in the meteor streams looked like ghosts in the sky.

Our ancestors had a very rocky ride in the Saturn train and later the Jupiter train on many occasions and even after that.

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nick c
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by nick c » Tue Jan 02, 2024 2:32 am

Lloyd wrote:Our ancestors had a very rocky ride in the Saturn train and later the Jupiter train on many occasions and even after that.
I recently read a great book on the subject of the Earth's cosmic environment during the Golden Age, the Fall, and the ensuing effects. And how the changed environment affected life on Earth, especially humankind.

Predicting The Past: An Exploration of Myth, Science, and Prehistory by Roger W. Wescott (1999), Kronos Press

Wescott refers to the original sun as Aster, but other than the name, everything he writes is applicable to Saturn theory. The book is filled with amazing insights and correlations to the Fall of Aster and how events in the sky affected the Earth and its flora and fauna, and especially humankind. The author pays special attention to words and phrases that permeate English and other languages and shows the connection to the lost cosmic state. That is, what happened in the ancient skies has had profound effects upon human thinking and behavior...as above so below.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jan 09, 2024 2:34 am

245606

RE ROGER WESCOTT

I haven't seen that book. I think I have all of the issues of the old magazine, Kronos (and all but one Pensee'). I think you have them too. I only have a few issues of Aeon. In 4 of the later issues of Kronos, Roger had an article called Aster and Disaster, in which I think he showed that disaster came from the word star, meaning star catastrophe, in which I think the star was Venus. Here are the starts of the article in the 4 issues.

Aster and Disaster: Toward a Catastrophist Mode of Mythological Interpretation [Kronos]
_From: Kronos Vol. IX No. 1 (Fall 1983) Roger W. Wescott. ... LMG ABSTRACT: Although in contemporary English the word "aster" refers only to the Michaelmas daisy, in earlier English it meant star.

Aster and Disaster: The Golden Age - I [Kronos]
_From: Kronos Vol. X No. 1 (Fall 1984) Roger W. Wescott. ... Our English phrase "golden age" or "age of gold", is a translation of Ovid's Latin phrase aetas aurea.(1 ) The Roman poet Horace called it tempus aureum - "the golden time".(2 ) The Egyptians too thought of this mythic stage as a period, which they referred to as "the first time" or "the times of Ra".(3)

Aster and Disaster: The Golden Age - II [Kronos]
_From: Kronos Vol. X No. 2 (Winter 1985) Roger W. Wescott. THE AUREAL ENVIRONMENT. Paradisial traditions, though relatively explicit about the world axis and the world-mountain, are for the most part vaguer about those features of the pre-catastrophic environment which were of smaller scale.

Aster and Disaster: The Fallen World [Kronos]
_From: Kronos Vol. XI No. 3 (Summer 1986) Roger W. Wescott. AN ETYMOLOGICAL EXCURSUS. The word "etymology" is of Classic Greek origin and may be literally translated as "true meaning". The Greeks, like most other ancient peoples, believed that when a word changed meaning over time (as most words do), the earliest known meaning was the most reliable meaning - if not, indeed, the only valid meaning.

LANGUAGE ORIGINS
I copied some of the Thoth articles on Language Origins and Roger contributed to those discussions.
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -origins-1
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -origins-2

SEARCH ON WESCOTT
Here's a search at Catastrophism.com on Wescott from all sources, followed by a search from Aeon magazine.
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1
https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... zoom_cat=2

Predicting the Past [Aeon]
{Looks like this was written shortly before he died.}
_From: Aeon V:6 (Aug 2000) The Osiris Series, Sponsored by Cosmos and Chronos Series Editor - Dwardu Cardona. Volume III. Is the present condition of the world the result of eons of peaceful evolution? Or has Earth been shaped by wrenching catastrophes some of which were recent and widespread enough to have deeply traumatized all of humankind? Did early human societies develop gradually in uneventful natural surroundings, moving incrementally from savagery to civilization? Or did horrific cataclysms forcibly conclude a long period of primitive harmony and precipitate our "fall" into history?

In Memoriam: Roger Williams Wescott [Aeon]
_From: Aeon VI:1 (Feb 2001) In Memoriam: Roger Williams Wescott April 28, 1905 - November 21, 2000 (L. M. Greenberg). {Wow! He was 95.} The passing of Roger Wescott this past November marked a major loss to the scholarly world at large and the Velikovsky camp in particular. A true polymath, Professor Wescott was a voracious reader and prolific author whose published works numbered in the hundreds. Equally at home in the fields of linguistics and anthropology, Professor Wescott was also eminently capable when it came to dealing with the subjects of catastrophism, myth, and prehistory.

GOD STAR
{Cardona mentioned Wescott in his first and second books.}
One may now ask: What actually constitutes mythos? As Roger Wescott explained, linguistic comparison suggests that the Greek word muthos is derived from a Proto-Indo-European stem which means "to remember nostalgically," and/or "to pine for."2 And, as I shall also endeavor to show, the contents of the world's mythology indicates exactly that - a sorrowful longing for the conditions of a past age. Thus Wescott was inclined to state that he viewed myth "as more wistful than wishful" besides being "more commemorative than imaginative."3

FLARE STAR
Neo-catastrophists had different ideas. But, among them, Roger Wescott was too cautious, where in other matters he threw caution to the wind, when he assigned the shedding of the Big Bang light to an unidentified body he referred to simply as Aster. He was, of course, referring to proto-Saturn without committing himself to it. "... although I accept the postulation of a primal Big Bang [he wrote], I relocate that explosive event in both space and time. Instead of regarding it as the occurrence which originated the entire universe at the beginning of time, I regard it as a local occurrence which took place in our solar system only some thousands of years ago... I have chosen to refer to the planet [which caused this 'local' bang] as Aster."2

I think Cardona died in 2016, when he still had probably more than one more book that he planned to write after having published 5.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jan 09, 2024 4:08 am

245606

NEW PAPER: SATURN NOVA
PS, I wrote yesterday "SATURN NOVA, When the Saturn Train Hit the Heliospheric Current Sheet" at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... aturn-nova . It's basically excerpts from Cardona's book, Flare Star. And I added it to my online book, ANCIENT MYTHS ARE EARTH HISTORY, at
https://zzzzzzz.substack.com/p/ancient- ... ry-history . Cardona thought Saturn flared up or novaed when the Saturn train hit the heliosheath. I figured it more likely novaed when it hit the heliospheric current sheet (HCS), which is the solar wind, which mostly ends at about Saturn's present orbit. However, I now found that about 1% of the HCS reaches the heliosheath, so that might be enough to have caused Saturn to nova there anyway.

DEEP THOUGHT about TIME
Wasn't that the title of an SNL sketch? If the past no longer exists, how can it ever have existed? If the present is only an infinitessimal fraction of time, how can the present really exist? Every portion of matter is constantly changing, so how is anything real? Something seems to be missing in reality.

RILLES REVEAL FORMER ATMOSPHERE?
_If lightning requires atmosphere, and if rilles are formed only by lightning, then rille locations imply former atmosphere, such as on the Moon and Mars.
_A.I. says lightning requires atmosphere. The thinner the atmosphere, the thinner the lightning.
_"The highest altitude at which lightning has been recorded is during the eruption of the Hunga Tonga volcano in 2022. The plume from the eruption produced lightning flashes that started 20 to 30 kilometers above sea level."
_"Thunderstorms reaching 20-22 km high have been recorded" {with lightning, apparently}.
_In the thinner air above, blue jets occur at about 50 km and red sprites at 60-80 km altitude.
_It says, "solar flares do produce electromagnetic (EM) wave signals similar to those produced by lightning."
_"Electrical discharges, similar to those seen in lightning, have not been directly observed in the solar wind, Saturn’s rings, or comet tails."
_The ionosphere is from c. 50-950 km altitude. The air density at 100 km is 5.6E-10 g/cc, too thin for detectable lightning.
_A comet's coma density likely ranges between .003-3 g/cc, so that should be easily sufficient for lightning. Same with a meteor entering the atmosphere.
_So, actually, if a large meteor strikes the Moon, there would be plenty of dust and gases produced in the impact explosion to permit lightning to form rilles without air on the Moon. So my initial thought is probably wrong.

REPULSION OF PARTICLES IN RAPID MOTION {as in the Solar Wind and Quasar Jets}
Electrical Attraction vs. Magnetic Repulsion
Charles Chandler had said some years ago that positive and negative ions moving at high velocity attract electrically, but repel magnetically. I think in his Quasar paper at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=9273 he figured that quasar jets shoot out protons first and electrons second. The electrons can't combine with the protons until they pass up the stream of protons on the outside and then get in front and turn inward and finally toward the leading protons with which they collide, causing the redshift of their light. So I wanted to see today about what velocities and distances apart the protons and electrons would attract or repel. My computer has Bing A.I., so I asked it do the work for me. Here are my questions and the answers. It's pretty impressive how well A.I. can "understand" or I should say "compute and answer" questions.
1) What is the resulting force of electrical attraction and the resulting force of magnetic repulsion {when the a proton and an electron are 1 micron apart, moving parallel in the same direction at .01C}?
Let’s calculate the results:
Electrical Force of Attraction:
Using Coulomb’s Law:
FE​=r^2k⋅q1​⋅q2​​
Substituting the given values:
FE​=(1×10^−6m)29.0×10^9N⋅m^2/C^2⋅(1.6×10−^19C)^2​
This simplifies to approximately 2.3 x 10^{-10} N.
Magnetic Force of Repulsion:
Using the formula for the magnetic force between two moving charges:
FB​=2πdμ0​⋅I+​⋅I−​​
Substituting the given values:
FB​=2π⋅1×10^−6m⋅4π×10^−7T⋅m/A⋅q⋅v⋅q⋅v​
where q is the charge of the proton or electron (1.6×10^−19C), and v is the velocity of the particles (0.01×3×10^8m/s).
This simplifies to approximately 3.5 x 10^{-19} N.
{I had to ask several times before it would do the calculations for me. The first 2 or 3 times it only wanted to give me the formulas. The following commands it carried out quite nicely, with no pussyfooting around. After that it carried out the following calculations.}
2) Now do the same calculations, substituting .1C for .01C.
3) Now substitute .8C for .1C.
4) Now substitute .9C for .8C.
5) Now substitute .99C for .9C.
6) Now substitute 100 microns for 1 micron.
7) Now substitute 10 mm for 100 microns.
8) Now substitute .5C for .99C.
9) Now substitute .1C for .5C.
10) Now substitute 1 mm for 10 mm.
Calc -- d ----- v ----- E ----- ... --- B
1) ---- 1 mic-- .01C -- 2.3E-10 N -->-- 3.5E-19 N {Recombination}
2) ---- 1 mic-- .1C --- 2.3E-10 N -->-- 3.5E-17 N {Recombination}
3) ---- 1 mic-- .8C --- 2.3E-10 N -->-- 2.8E-15 N {Recombination}
4) ---- 1 mic-- .9C --- 2.3E-10 N -->-- 2.8E-14 N {Recombination}
5) ---- 1 mic-- .99C -- 2.3E-10 N -->-- 3.1E-13 N {Recombination}
6) ---- 100 mic .99C -- 2.3E-14 N -->-- 3.1E-15 N {Recombination}
7) ---- 1 cm--- .99C -- 2.3E-18 N --<-- 1.9E-16 N {Dispersion}
8) ---- 1 cm--- .5C --- 2.3E-18 N --<-- 1.9E-16 N {Dispersion}
9) ---- 1 cm--- .1C --- 2.3E-18 N --<-- 7.5E-18 N {Dispersion}
10) --- 1 mm--- .1C --- 2.3E-16 N -->-- 7.5E-17 N {Recombination}
_So if A.I. got all the calculations correct, then at 1 micron apart the electrical force of attraction (E) of 2.3E-10 N between a proton and an electron moving at any speed up to over .99C is way stronger than the magnetic force of repulsion (B) of up to 3.1E-13 N. Attraction is 3 orders of magnitude stronger.
_But increasing the distance apart to 100 microns results in the magnetic repulsion being only 1 order of magnitude too weak to prevent recombination.
_Increasing the distance apart to 1 cm makes the magnetic repulsion almost 2 orders of magnitude stronger, so at that distance apart going at .99C they repel apart further.
_Even reducing the velocity to .1C still allows the repulsion to be 3 times stronger than the attraction.
_Reducing the distance apart to 1 mm results again in attraction becoming about 3 times stronger than the repulsion.
_So in the solar wind a few percent of the particles could continue to remain separated until they reach the heliosheath about 11 billion miles from the Sun.
_A.I. says Voyager I measured a particle density at the heliosheath of .08 protons per cc and .05 electrons per cc.
_It says there are 3 to 10 protons and 3 to 10 electrons per cc at Earth's orbit and much fewer neutral particles.
_It says there are neutrals at the heliosheath which it claims come from the interstellar medium, but, since about 99% of protons and electrons don't make it to the heliosheath, I imagine those have mostly recombined, making neutrals, so the neutrals at the heliosheath could be from the solar wind, or from both sources.
_If the Voyager calculations are right, there are more protons than electrons at the heliosheath, making it slightly positive there.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Jan 10, 2024 5:28 am

245631

DISCUSSION WITH NICK RE SATURN NOVA

Yesterday, I posted "SATURN NOVA: When the Saturn Train Hit the Heliospheric Current Sheet" at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... aturn-nova

Nick responded privately, but said I can quote him. I'll add footnote numbers in brackets {} and add the footnote comments at the end.

Nick said: "I am skeptical that a brown dwarf passing through the heliopause would stress it enough to cause it to go nova. Thornhill has written (from my memory) that when proto Saturn entered or passed through the heliopause its power (ability to receive galactic currents) was usurped by the Sun. Could this have caused it to go nova? I don't know.{1}

"But Velikovsky, and I think Talbott agreed, Saturn after some time within the heliosphere encountered Jupiter, which then caused Saturn to erupt in a nova like explosion, giving birth to Venus, and maybe some other smaller terrestrial type bodies.{2}

"Anyway, I guess the jury is still out. And there is the possibility that both events could have taken place at different times.{3}

"I am presently reading Newborn Star{4}, and will have more to say later. It is difficult to dig up the nature of these events since there have been several catastrophes since then, and we know the more recent catastrophes wipe out some of the evidence and cloud memories of the previous catastrophes.{5}

... "I do know that Thornhill thought the polar configuration arose after the Saturn system entered the heliosphere, while Cardona thought the brown dwarf, before its capture, was already in a polar configuration when it was traveling through interstellar space. Both make good arguments for their case.{6}

MY REPLY
{1} I don't know of good evidence that there is a galactic current reaching the heliosphere or the solar system from space. In my last post here I showed that the heliospheric current sheet (HCS) extends along the Sun's equatorial plane to the heliosheath (the outer edge), although the current is only 1% as strong there as it is at Earth's orbit. So it looks to me like that current is the most likely phenomenon that could have triggered a nova outburst on Saturn. Cardona figured that the Saturn train arrived from below the solar equatorial plane at about 25 degrees, since Saturn, Mars and Earth (and Neptune) have close to that same axial tilt. I guess I read that in Flare Star, but not sure. I didn't read him say how the Saturn train would have changed course to then stay within the equatorial plane (ecliptic). But he did say the train came in at a shallow angle, instead of perpendicularly. The latter case would have caused it to head straight toward the Sun, whereas the shallow angle caused the train to slowly orbit the Sun on a spiraling orbit, if I understand right. I.e., the train would have spiraled inward toward the Sun.

{2} Talbott agreed largely with Cardona and Thornhill, not so much with Velikovsky. I think Talbott and Cardona both found that it was only the Greeks who said Athena was born from the head of Zeus. I think Cochrane showed that Zeus was Mars instead of Jupiter, in this case. So the Greeks were likely remembering an encounter between Mars and Venus. That all occurred near the end of the Golden Age, probably decades or centuries after Saturn went nova.

{6} I think Thornhill thought the Saturn train could have only remained stable about 50 to 200 years, so I agree that he probably thought it took a linear form upon entering the heliosphere and had a normal arrangement of orbits around Saturn before that. I think Cardona cited the case of comet SL9 and Herbig-Haro objects as evidence that star systems can have a linear arrangement. Even while the Saturn train had its linear form, Saturn apparently had satellites orbiting it in the normal way as well. SL9 was a single body until 1992 when it broke up into 21 pieces, I think, which formed a linear train that went into orbit for 2 years before returning to Jupiter in 1994 and colliding with it. Anyway, ancient myths are what clued Talbott and Cardona into the idea of a linear train of planets making up the former Saturn configuration. I guess it was Robert Driscoll who first suggested that Venus, Mars and Earth orbited Saturn in a revolving linear arrangement, but Talbott and Cardona eventually decided that they weren't revolving around Saturn.

{3} IMO, the jury is always out. Talbott thought Jupiter was in the leading position in the Saturn train, hidden behind (in front of) Saturn. Cardona thought Jupiter was behind Earth as the caboose of the Saturn train. He thought Earth tipped over, causing Jupiter to appear where Saturn was. Then Earth tipped back upright. Then Jupiter replaced Saturn, while Saturn left the train.

{4} Newborn Star was Cardona's last of 5 books, as far as I know. I think at the end of it he finally started to talk about Venus. He didn't say much at all about any of the planets, except Saturn, in any of his other books, and he talked mostly about Saturn even in this last book. I guess he had planned to discuss the other planets more in future books, had he lived longer.

{5} Talbott and Cardona accepted that there was a Great Flood, but I think that was the flood from the melting of the ice sheet/s. The Great Flood likely occurred centuries before that, which may have been caused by the Saturn Nova. However, I guess Cardona figured the Nova occurred even before that, maybe by some centuries. I've been supposing that the nova occurred at the outset of the Great Flood, like Velikovsky surmised, but I probably need to reconsider. Cardona thought Genesis says creation started with the coming of light, as it says Let there be light, which occurred over a millennium before the Great Flood. Offhand, it still seems more probable that the Nova occurred just before or after the Great Flood, because the latter apparently wiped out nearly all of humanity and land creatures, so flood myths from around the world likely came from descendants of the few survivors of the Great Flood, after which it would have taken a few centuries to repopulate the globe.

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