Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:14 am

What, is that true Lloyd ? Have you been getting a dollar a word, all this time ? (;

No, jk. Lloyd is a longtime catastrophist resource/researcher, a real institution around here, and one of the people originally inspired by Dr Velikovsky.

JoeB, you will find a thorough and up-to-date growing/expanding earth thread on this forum if you look. Definitely worth reading.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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nick c
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by nick c » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:28 am

JoeB,
We have a thread for the discussion of the Expanding Earth.
Posts regarding that should be made on the "Are the Planets Growing?" thread here:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... ?f=11&t=12

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:32 pm

234608

I'll take a dollar a word, especially if it doesn't matter what the words are, or if they're misspelled.
I'm trying to post the following on my substack, but it's being contrary, but I intended to post it here too.

ELECTRIC FOSSILIZATION

It appears that the Great Flood was primarily involved in burying and fossilizing plants and animals, but electrical effects also seem to have been involved in some ways. I plan to discuss fossils more later, but I thought I should start by discussing electrical effects on fossilization. Electrical forces were likely very strong during the Great Flood. Impacting objects were surface-ionized going through the atmosphere and totally ionized on impact, when impacts had enough velocity.

PETER MUNGO JUPP Instant Fossilization
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vOMGQTjW9k&t=22s
Peter Jupp will discuss petrification as instantaneous and under the control of dynamic Earth-shaking events. What have we found on Earth to demonstrate this hypothesis? A forest of giant trees turned to solid rock. A soft-bodied crab petrified to rock and enclosed in the center of a basalt Thunder egg. Dinosaur remains that conceal a heart replete with chambers but turned to iron. A shoal of fish in their death throes petrified within the limestone.

https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2013/03/21/antarctica/

New laboratory experiments are showing that fossilization is a rapid process under certain conditions. This concept has generally been ignored. Could high voltage electricity, either from within the earth or from cosmogenic effects such as comets, coronal mass ejections, or planets in disturbed motion be the rapid tool of petrifaction and fossilization? Normally, what dies is quickly recycled biologically, unless some catastrophic geological intervention occurs. Judging by the agonizing positions of most fossils, the catastrophic intervention that petrifies is almost always connected to the cause of death.

https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2014/0 ... xtinction/

Eric Milton describes his examination of a petrified tree trunk (essentially water and carbon) in Alberta, Canada:

“The piece was pure clear silica inside, it was coated with a rougher opaque crust of partially fused sand. The tree, whose stump was petrified, was alive five years ago! After the tree was cut down to accommodate the right of way for a new power transmission line, an accidental break allowed the live high-voltage wire to contact several tree stumps still in the ground. The power was cut off within hours of the break. All of the tree roots which contacted the broken wire were fossilized.”

Obviously, extremes of electricity can metamorphose matter quickly.

In Hot Springs, South Dakota, mammoths and many other animals are found immersed in micro-layers of limestone. As paleontologist Dr. Larry Agenbroad explained to me, the mammoths themselves are barely distinguishable from the medium they are immersed in. Micro-layers of limestone permeate down the entire 100 foot deep mass of this volumetric disaster. If this was an electric plasma discharge event, how did it cause this amazing layering in an instant? It is plain that no slow deposition of layers was involved, otherwise the animals would have biologically deteriorated before being buried.

POSSIBLY ELECTRICALLY FOSSILIZED MEGAFAUNA

https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2014/0 ... ilization/

As close by as inland Lancefield, massive bolus-shaped graves of these very animals, from giant kangaroos to huge wombats, abound. They inevitably occur in tangled heaps of destruction. In other continents, from the United States to Russia, similar mass mega-fauna destruction sites occur.

The Sorrento Diprotodon is not an isolated example, as the abundance of electrically formed plant fulgurites along the cliff testify. In addition, layers of fossilized shells, thirty meters above the shoreline, point to a parallel mega-tsunami. This is evidence of a vast electrical plasma discharge striking the entire area.

However, the method of destruction has explanations in the ancient legends of Port Lincoln:

“The local sand hills along the South Australian coast were raised by Marnpi and Tatta, two of their ancestors. A great fire, coming from the ocean, spread far and wide on the sea-coast, and seemed likely to envelop the whole country in its flames. Deliberating how to prevent such a calamity, it occurred to the above mentioned personages that the best method of quenching the fire would be to bury it; they accordingly betook themselves to the task, and, in executing it, threw up those sand hills which testify to this day the vastness of the undertaking.”

In other continents, they [megafauna] are generally found in spherical-shaped sinkholes, either fossilised or petrified. For instance, the mammoth site in Hot Springs, South Dakota, United States, where Palaeontologist, Dr. Larry Agenbroad, showed me species from mammoths to giant short faced bears submerged in micro-layers of limestone.

NOTES ON RADIOACTIVE FOSSILS

Radioactivity in fossils at the Hagerman Fossil Beds https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18442873/

Radioactive fossil sites occur primarily within an elevation zone of 900-1000 m above sea level and are most commonly found associated with ancient river channels filled with sand.

Unusually Radioactive Fossil Bones from Mongolia https://www.nature.com/articles/214161a0

On the radioactivity of fossil bones https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 4X77907042

In many fossils a high uranium concentration was found

some fossils can accumulate radioactive elements acting like a sponge

radioactivity of fossil bones derived from radioactive zones of Siwalik Himalayas of India

PRODUCTIVE FORUM DISCUSSION FROM 2008-2010 & BEYOND

Quoting highlights of discussion among several people

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... ?f=4&t=123

ALASKA BONEBED

At http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/v ... saur#p6537 I gave links to sites showing evidence of dinosaurs in the time of later humans. The bone bed in Alaska is most interesting as it is said to contain both fossilized and unfossilized dinosaur bones. The idea of electrical fossilization is intriguing, but how would some bones in a pit be fossilized and some not, even by electricity? And, if dinosaur bones exist that are unfossilized, doesn't that mean they're very young? Like 5 to 10 thousand or so years old? Apparently, the reason the unfossilized bones did not disintegrate is because they were frozen.

Well in Alaska there was something special that occurred. The Northern Hemisphere was holding up quite an amount of Water when Saturn was affecting our tides, pulling water towards the poles.

When it left, the water flowed down over Canada and into the US. The mudslide retreated back towards the north, carrying debris and bone with it. Fossils would be things that were hit (by electricity) and fossilized and the bones are things that died and got backwashed to the sea.

When they found a 'fossilized' shark with a fossilized embryo and a fossilized umbilical cord turned up, I mocked the idea of 'slow fossilization'.

Instant Petrified Wood Created in Lab https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 123#p17794

BIOLOGICAL TRANSMUTATION

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 3&start=15

[Something online about biological transmutation said:l] fossilization is due to transmutation of the tissues into silicon and such, thus preserving the form. As was pointed out further up this thread, you can have a mix of fossil bones and regular bones, that's only possible if the fossilization process is more "organic" than we realize.<--Pun intended. https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... e5a0#p3738

I have a box of rocks in my classroom including coalified and petrified wood, from the 1980 eruption of Mt. St. Helens, gleaned from ash in the logjam area near Spirit Lake.

Water flowing over, in, through and around these silica rich strata provides ample concentration of silica for petrifaction of entrapped organic debris, eg wood and what the locals call "bog". Now mineral replacement of organic material must IMO be at least enhanced by if not essentially caused by electrical/electrolytical changes inside and out of the organic debris.

Kervran found that heat is the probable cause of transmutation of N2 to CO. N2 is nitrogen in the air. Heat from welding or even a hot wood stove can heat the nitrogen enough to cause one proton to move from one of the nitrogen atoms to the other. The atom that loses the proton becomes carbon; the other becomes oxygen. Kervran warned welders and others who work around high heat to have fresh air pumped in to prevent CO [carbon monoxide] poisoning.

* In all of the other cases of transmutation that his book reported, the cause seemed to be bacterial or enzymatic action, i.e. biological transmutation.

* Lightning definitely appears to cause transmutation too, as that is what appears to produce sulphur in volcanic eruptions as well as the red sulphurs on Io and Europa. In Earth volcanoes the sulphur seems to come from oxygen molecules in the air, where 8 O 16 + 8 O 16 = 16 S 32 [O is Oxygen; S is Sulphur; 8, 16 & 32 are the numbers of protons and nucleons]. On Io and Europa the oxygen apparently comes from H2O, i.e. ice. Lightning also seems to transmute Si to Fe in the case of some large fulgarites etc.

* So in the case of petrified wood etc, the transmutation could be a result of either heat, or electricity, or biology. Biology is greatly dependent on electricity, so even that may involve electrical transmutation. Heat is also produced by lighning. Since a TPOD a few weeks or so ago indicated that even sticky tape, when pulled apart, produces tiny electrical arcing, it seems possible that heated air may also involve such arcing.

GORGON MYTH & RECENTLY FOSSILIZED HUMAN LEG

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 3&start=30

after Mount St. Helen's blew they have been finding partially fossilized wood; and that's only after a few decades. The fossilization is not just powered by the heat or pressure but also by the electrical charge that filled and drove the pyroclastic flow, which was essentially a plasma. No silicon saturated water needed to be involved, just transmutation of the carbon and oxygen in the cell walls into silicon.

When you think of wood or tissue fossilizing don't think in terms of bacteria being the culprit, think of the gorgon from myth turning people to stone.

there are many paths to silicon and they include the carbon and oxygen in tissue fusing into silicon with the right energy.

So fossilization apparently does still occur via vulcanism at least, i.e. via electrical forces involved in vulcanism.

since biological processes can transmute elements at low temperatures, highly charged electrical conditions may produce transmutation too, such as in fossilization. And in fact electrical forces seem to transmute sulphur from oxygen routinely.

* However, bacteria apparently do a lot of transmutation of rock too. Bacteria are known to exist in solid rock to depths of over a mile and they seem to live by transmuting what they need for survival.

Wal Thornhill mentioned once that he thinks at least some of the sedimentary rock of the Earth's crust was formed by electrical pulverization and electrical layering and hardening of the powder, which is comparable to how vehicles are painted electrically in modern industry.

An electric star, with innumerable plasma discharge vortexes thousands of kilometers long, possesses the natural particle accelerators and high density to produce the heavy elements right near the surface where their signatures appear in the spectrum.

* This book, Mistake Earth Science, By Hans-Joachim Zillmer, at Google Books at

https://www.google.com/books/edition/_/ ... Lh4C?hl=en

talks about electrical fossilization and shows a picture of part of someone's leg fossilized inside a cowboy boot.

https://www.evolutionisamyth.com/dating ... wboy-boot/

https://mysteriousuniverse.org/2018/11/ ... e-fossils/

Of course this bizarre artifact was snatched up by the Creationist Evidence Museum, where they claim it was subjected to various tests in 1997 and 2006, the findings which have been kept under wraps. Interestingly, the boot was suddenly removed from display for unexplained reasons, and has never been offered for independent analysis, which along with the lack of available lab results makes it all rather suspicious indeed.

https://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread136252/pg1

The rubber-soled boot with petrified cowboy leg, bones and all was found in a dry creek bed near the West Texas town of Iraan, about 1980 by Mr. Jerry Stone, an employee of Corvette oil company. The boot was hand made by the M. L. Leddy boot company of San Angelo, Texas which began manufacturing boots in 1936. Gayland Leddy, nephew of the founder, grew up in the boot business and now manages Boot Town in Garland, Texas. He recognized the "number 10 stitch pattern" used by his uncle?s company and concluded that the boot was made in the early 1950's. Only the contents of the boot are fossilized, not the boot itself, demonstrating that some materials fossilize more readily than others. The bones of the partial leg and foot within the boot were revealed by an elaborate set of C.T. Scans performed at Harris Methodist Hospital in Bedford, Texas on July 24, 1997. The Radiologic Technician was Evelyn Americus, AART. A complete set of these scans remains with the boot at the Creation Evidence Museum in Glen Rose, Texas.

* The boot didn't fossilize, just the leg in it. The author said it shows that fossilization occurs at different rates for different materials. The boot was found to have been made in the 1950s. The theory is that a man fell out of an airplane and hit a power line on the way down. Perhaps an animal carried away the rest of the dead man's carcass. Animals probably don't eat fossils. The author also shows a picture of fossilized human hands from around Bogota, Colombia.

* The book says that geophysicists discovered layers in the Earth with high electric conductivity. The conductivity of each layer varies. Pospelow assumes that the layers of Earth's crust and mantle are electric condensers. They produce subterranean lightning. Drujanow, 1984, p. 32 is quoted.

LOT'S WIFE FOSSILIZED; PLASMA COLUMN; PETRIFIED WOOD

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 3&start=45

* That's an interesting idea about the Bible's description of Lot's wife turning into a pillar of salt near Sodom meaning she was fossilized. It sounds similar to the 1950s leg fossilized inside an unfossilized cowboy boot. Medusa was said to turn people to stone when they stared at her. I wonder if that meant she fossilized them. At https://saturniancosmology.org/othergro ... otii20.txt Dave Talbott said Medusa was the planet Venus, seen in the center of Saturn's face during the Saturn age. It's hard to imagine that Venus could have fossilized people etc when it was in that position. Perhaps lightning was seen to come from Venus to Earth at that time.

* In Kronos magazine in the 80s Dwardu Cardona apparently identified the myth of hurakan as referring to the polar plasma column, as per: https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... ebfcfd853e . Kurra-kurran might mean the same thing.

* I read that "The predominant minerals in petrified wood are silicates, such as quartz."

* And an abstract about: "Rapid wood silicification in hot spring water" is at:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 3804001940

* It says that minerals can seep into pieces of wood in hot spring water and petrify it in 7 years or more.

* Considering that electric power lines can fossilize a tree root and probably a leg wearing a cowboy boot, as mentioned in previous posts in this thread, what I think happened to get the variation in colors is:

Forests were inundated in the Great Flood; the waters were very hot in some areas from vulcanism etc; the trees laid in the hot water for months; electric charge in the water hastened the transport of minerals into the wood and fossilized it; the carbon and possibly calcium in the wood transmuted into silicates; some minerals may have transmuted, while others perhaps did not; the minerals or lack of them resulted in the color variations; sulfur varies in color from yellow to red; iron varies from gray to red and brown, I think;

* This http://www.northern.edu/natsource/earth/Petrif1.htm

Silica, in the form of silicon dioxide (SiO2), commonly known as quartz, is the most common replacement mineral. Often traces of other minerals give petrified wood its unique color and characteristics. Iron oxide will cause reds, browns, yellows and earth tones. Copper and chrome oxide create greens, silicates of aluminum produce whites, and manganese dioxide makes black.

* The silicon in petrified wood seems to be like glass, which may mean that the silicates melted, which would have required considerable heat, which electric discharges could provide.

if fossilization happens by some electrical process, and there is transmutation, doesn't that fit the picture here more closely [than permineralization]? It would seem to explain how the outside of the bone could be instantly changed to stone, but the inside may still have soft tissue.

Wouldn't that be interesting if the bone was fossilized and the soft tissue was dehydrated all in one "swell foop"?

Is it interesting to think that the Great Flood knocked over and submerged forests for 5 months (the Bible says 150 days, I think) and the hot water helped the wood absorb minerals stirred up in the flood waters, which resulted in the color variations in petrified wood?

The hot water didn't bring in silica; it brought in the minerals that give the various colors to the petrified wood. Electric currents and heat still would have transmuted the carbon to silica, but, if it was under water, the current may have been dispersed and may have taken longer than instantly. It may have taken a few months, since that seems to be how long the flood waters remained.

POWER LINE FOSSILIZED TREE

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 3&start=60

I still like the "clinker" reference from TeslaMania's "Big Arcs and Sparks" page.

(What Happens when a LIVE High Voltage Power Line Hits the Ground?)

http://www.capturedlightning.com/frames ... tm#Clinker

The following pictures are of a man-made fulgurite that was created when a high voltage power line fell during a windstorm, and then continued to arc to the ground for a couple of hours. When a high voltage power line initially contacts the ground, it begins arcing. The intense heat of the arc and the high current flowing into the ground cause sand, rocks, and minerals in the soil near the line to fuse into a glassy, lava-like substance.

Unlike natural fulgurites, those created by a downed power lines tend to be considerably thicker and more massive. Linemen sometimes call these curious artifacts "clinkers" because of the ringing sound they make when struck or because they resemble the ash left over from burning coal (also called clinkers). As with natural fulgurites, clinkers are often hollow with polished, glassy interior walls. However, because they're thicker, they tend to be considerably heavier and massive than the thin, fragile lightning-created fulgurites which are created within a fraction of a second.

These pictures are of a clinker that was formed in Northern California in 1994 when a 7,200 volt power line fell onto a pile of clam shells next to a canal in Hickman, California. Although this 28 inch long specimen weighs about 80 pounds, it is actually only a small piece of the 15 foot long clinker that was created during the fault. Shell fragments can be seen embedded in the exterior of the glassy walls.

http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/v ... =45#p18935

I mentioned an experiment that involved fossilization of wood in hot water.

ELECTRICAL CONCRETIONS

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 3&start=75

I think if we want to link electrical discharges with the process of fossilization, concretions might "have it." Thunderbolts Picture of the Day already point out that concretions can be formed in the lab with electricity, and that concretions are found on Mars, which has no water. http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/00sub ... oncretions

Wikipedia points out that concretions often have a fossil inside.

CONCRETIONS & LIGHTNING STRIKES

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 3&start=90

if we want to link electrical discharges with the process of fossilization, concretions might "have it." ... concretions can be formed in the lab with electricity, and ... concretions are found on Mars, which has no water. ... concretions often have a fossil inside

* The hot water experiment mentioned a few pages back suggested that the water was needed to bring minerals into fallen trees that became petrified forests, but also was likely needed to supply oxygen, which apparently transmuted into sulphur, which further perhaps transmuted into phosphorus and calcium, for calcium phosphate.

Saturated aqueous silica solutions plus heat [up to say 300 deg F] have been shown to produce petrifaction of wood in the lab in a matter of hours/days, which is a good contest for the decomposition process. The timing and concentration questions are answered fairly quickly by the observation, in the case of our local fossils here in Washington, that sufficient petrifaction minerals are present in the strata, or substrate or superstrata, in which the fossils are found. If these strata were laid in rapid succession, as by moving currents, as opposed to the standard model of "quiet shallow seas" deposition, then timing is no longer an issue. The additional element of heat is amply supplied [again exemplified by most of the fossils found in Washington state] by associated volcanics, or by additional pressure of the overburden of sediments. No sure why you thought 1400 degrees were needed. None of this is to deny the possibility of thunderbolt-type activity. That additional factor is simply not evidenced in most [or any?] of the cases I've observed around here. Coalified wood is also rapidly achieved with a minimal amount of added heat and the presence of a silica rich catalist such as clay, a common matrix material for coal.

Concretions are not a particular good model for fossilization, IMO, though a few concretions have been found to coagulate around bits of shell, etc. The charge separation required for their formation [as also with crystalization, both precipitate and evaporites] certainly has the polar molecules of water as a strong ally. This may have been a factor in the ancient formation of hematite spheroids on Mars, but the rapid sublimation of ices [whether CO2 or H20] could also create such a charge separation. The lack of variety in size [implies for me a size limit] of Martian blueberries, suggest to me a concretion process that got a start [with or without the presence of water] but did not continue [because of the lack of water], leaving those relatively uniform hematitie blueberries, if indeed they are confirmed to be hematite.

No sure why you thought 1400 degrees were needed.

That is from back on page 3, I think, the temp used in the patented process for lab created petrified wood.

Who would have predicted the gigantic concretions exposed in China and New Zealand? Thunderbolts p-o-d for Mar 25th 2005 says,

* Webolife, would you explain what "charge separation" process you were talking about, that relates to crystallization and concretion formation? I think concretions are mostly formed in the ground via underground lightning, which, I suppose, produce z-pinches, which is where spheroidal rock is formed. Crystals often form within geodes, which may be formed by the same process by which concretions are formed. And giant crystal caves are theorized by TB team members, such as Stephen Smith, to be formed in a similar electrical process as well. You were talking about CO2 and H2O forming crystals via charge separation, I think. Snowflakes are theorized by the team to be formed electrically as well, but I haven't heard them discuss CO2, dry ice, although I suppose that could make equal sense. Have you read the snowflake thread?

Lloyd, Start with the charge separation produced in the presence of polar water molecules and whatever substance is suspended or dissolved in it [instead of lightning, or electric discharge].

EXPERIMENT ON FOSSILIZING BIRDS; BONE COMPOSITION

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... &start=135

* This, however, is another possible means of fossilization in a short time.

http://www.scienceagainstevolution.org/v10i6n.htm*

After some experimentation, the researchers found a way to overcome a dead bird's buoyancy. When a carcass was dropped onto moist sediments that contained clay, the material soaked into the bird's feathers and bound the body to the mud in just a few minutes. Later, when water was added to the tank, the stuck-in-the-mud carcass remained submerged. 5

* Taking their work even further, Krauss and his team added enough sediment to the tanks to bury the submerged carcasses. Then, they placed weights on the mud to increase the pressure, as a naturally buried body would experience if accumulating lake sediments gradually covered it. The team left the bodies in place for 3 years.

* When the researchers unearthed their samples, they found that the patterns and extent of preservation of the faux-fossil birds were remarkably similar to those seen in actual fossils millions of years old. This resemblance suggests that the remains of ancient birds might have begun their process of fossilization in just such a way, Krauss notes. The team's findings may enable scientists to better interpret fossils and deduce the environments in which they formed, he adds. 6

* You’ve probably read creationist claims of hats or fence posts that fossilized in just a few years. Creationists generally claim that the proper conditions, not long periods of time, are all that are needed for fossilization. That’s what Briggs’ experiment showed. Briggs doesn’t know exactly what the proper conditions are, but some eggs mineralized, and some didn’t, despite being buried for the same amount of time. Furthermore, the durations of the tests were very short, geologically speaking. It took just weeks or months for the process to begin. If they had more patience, they would have seen more mineralization (in those situations where the conditions were favorable).

* In my recent message I said I found that for fresh bones the Total bone composition is: 45% O, 15% H, 15% Ca, 13% C, 9% P

* In the last message I quoted a statement on fossil bone contents as either: calcite [crystallized calcium carbonate CaCO3], silica [SiO2], pyrite [iron disulfide FeS2], or iron.

* Here's a side-by-side comparison [1st column is fresh bone contents]:

O Ca C H P ........ bones

O Ca C Si S Fe .... fossils

* This shows that calcium sometimes remains as calcium;

P+H or O+O may combine by transmutation to form S, part of pyrite;

O+C may likewise combine to form Si, part of silica;

Si+4Li or 2Si-2H may form Fe, part of pyrite.

* So the existing contents of fresh bone can supply the elements found in fossil bones.

* On the transmutation thread at http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/v ... ?f=3&t=209 I see that Aluminum=Silicon-Hydrogen and Calcium=Silicon+Carbon seem to be the most probable transmutation routes for Bug tissues to fossilize into silicates of alumina and calcium.

* The bugs don't initially contain silicon, but the common organic atoms of carbon and oxygen likely transmute into silicon, then some of the silicon further transmutes to aluminum and calcium.

6C12+8O16=14Si28; 14Si28-1H1=13Al.27; 14Si28+6C12=20Ca40.

ELECTRICAL FUSION DURING CHICAGO FIRE COMET

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... &start=180

* I just realized that the fossilized "foot in boot" from this thread is very reminiscent of the fused "coins in pocket" of this TPOD

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... ofire3.htm

, which says re the Chicago Fire:

Buildings exploding with fire when no fire was yet present

Electrical discharges would take place between metal objects inside buildings, igniting any flammable materials. The same would hold true for the hapless man [in Wisconsin I think] found with melted [fused] coins in his pocket but clothes intact and no other signs of burning. There is, in fact, no other natural explanation for this enigma.

Also of interest is a presentation on the Peshtigo fire by the Oconto County Web Project, which discusses the comet hypothesis as a "plausible" theory

The foot in the boot fossilized without having noticeable effect on the boot; and, likewise, the coins in the pocket fused together without having noticeable effect on the man's pocket or clothing.

In combination with an anode and cathode, the electric current causes dissolved minerals in sea water to crystallize, forming a limestone coating over the exposed steel, a perfect media for coral larvae – the basic building block of the reef.

NATIVE AMERICAN LIGHTNING CATASTROPHE LEGENDS

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... &start=255

I found a book called Fossil Legends of the First Americans by Adrienne Mayor. She has done invaluable research into the legends of Indians in North and Central America, and also the book has an illuminating perspective on the history of various attitudes towards Native myths displayed by the first paleontologists.

90% of the legends kept by the Indians relating to both fossils and the death of the megafauna and dinosaurs involve lightning and thunderbolts.

I thought you would be interested in the incredible link between electrical discharges and fossilization found in the legends.

https://tonmo.com/articles/myths-and-legends.41/ — BELEMNITES. Belemnites are traditionally associated with thunderstorms and have many differing traditional names usually along the lines of thunderbolts, thunder-arrows or thunderstones. It was common folklore throughout Europe that these cylindrical bullet shaped fossils were cast down from the heavens as lightning, hit the ground and turned to stone. If one was struck by lightning it was believed that one had been struck with a thunderbolt. This belief was probably heightened by the unusual translucent quality of belemnite fossils; they are frequently preserved in a pale yellowish-brown colour, possibly reminiscent of a lightning flash. The word belemnon stems from the Greek and literally means dart. In Russia belemnites are referred to as thunder-arrows, or gromovye strelki. Similarly in Lithuanian mythology belemnites are referred to as Pekuno akmu or Pekunas' stone, Pekunas being the Thunder God and often compared to the Norse god Thor. It was also a traditional Germanic belief that to keep these thunderstones at home would afford the owners home from protection from lightning, in parts of the Netherlands these donderstenen (Donar's stones, Donar being the Thunder god) were kept in the roof.

_Ch 1 Iroquois, Shawnee, Delaware in New England, the Mid-Atlantic and the Ohio Valley

"This place was a landmark of long standing...The Shawnees believed that the five creatures had died at the same time, struck by lightning." pg 53

"After the great men had died out, they said, 'God had Kill'd' the mighty animals with lightning bolts, so that they could 'not hurt the present race of Indians.'" pg 54

"Lightning was also the agent of extinction in the Delaware traditions about mastodon fossils, as Thomas Jefferson learned a few years after Wright interviewed the Shawnee men." pg55

A Delaware elder to Thomas Jefferson:

"'In ancient time a herd of these tremendous animals came to the Bigbone Licks' and destroyed the smaller game...which had been created for Indians to hunt. The 'Great Man above' was 'so enraged that he seized his lightning, descended on the earth, seated himself on a neighboring mountain.' He 'hurled his bolts til the whole were slaughtered.'" pg 59

"The Shawnee related that...the good Spirit had destroyed these immense animals with lightning..." pg 65

"Adams describes the Great Spirit hurling lightning bolts to destroy the mastodons." pg 66

If you remember the fossilized foot in the cowboy boot, that apparently shows that flesh can fossilize. So, I'm wondering why dinosaurs and most animals did not have fossilized flesh, along with the bones.

The Indian legends in this book describe how the animals died.

there were only two that could possibly be interpreted as actually referring to how they were fossilized. One says that the creatures were both killed and buried by the thunderbolt.

From Fossil Legends of the First Americans, by Adrienne Mayor

Chapter 3: The Southwest - Zuni, Navajo, Apache, Hopi, Ute, and Pit River

But now, on dry land, predatory animals multiplied. With their powerful talons and teeth, these giant creatures devoured weaker human beings. So the Twin Heroes stalked across the world, blasting all the land monsters--enormous mountain lions and bears and other huge creatures--with lightning. "Thlu!" Instantly immolated, these dangerous beasts were "shriveled and burnt into stone." Pg 111

We have changed you into rock everlasting, said the Twin Heroes, as they struck the huge animals with lightning. "Now you will be good for men rather than evil." pg 112

Figure 31. Belemnite fossils, used for protection in battle by the Zuni. These marine fossils were called "lightning or thunder stones" by Plains Indians.

Some monsters even persued people into successive worlds. But the Sun gave special lightning bolts to the twin sons of Changing Woman, so that they could overcome the monsters. pg 119

Approaching with earthshaking footsteps, Yeitso [monster] attacked, but the Twins destroyed it with lightning. Pg 119

As the monster plowed up the earth with its horns, they [Monster Slayers] killed it with lightning arrows. A little gopher assured them the monster was dead by running out along one of its horns. pg 122

The Gray Monsters were a variety of evil creatures of the earlier worlds. The Monster Slayers killed some, while others were done in by hail and windstorm. Pg 126

Zuni myth also featured a giant centipede who was shriveled by a bolt of lightning by the Twin Heroes--that's why today's centipedes look like burnt bits of fringed buckskin.

Real humans appeared only after the "Great Change," an extinction and evolutionary event ushered in by a great flood.

The Paiutes told Powell that the stone logs were the enormous shafts of arrows unleashed by the Wolf-Thunder god, Shinarav, or Shinarump, an important force in the Ute origin myth. pg 159

RAPID FOSSILIZATION; TREE TURNED TO IRON

https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... &start=270

And just how swift would the process of fossilization have to be to preserve soft tissue? It seems to me it would have to happen in a flash because of 1.) the weight of the strata above and 2.) the presence of cellular structure.

One paleontologist observed

Fossilization occurred rapidly enough to be influenced by tissue composition and involved a diagenetic sequence: apatite calcite ± gypsum pyrite ± chalcopyrite galena.

_Just found something (at least to me) very weird about fossilization or rather "metallization" in an old German book. The title of the book is "Natural Miracles and Noteworthinesses of the Land", second improved edition, Berlin 1803. Author was Samuel Christoph Wagner. See: https://archive.org/stream/bub_gb_c96ja ... 5/mode/2up

I quote( please, excuse my English):

The Wood Transformed into Iron Ore

During the set up of the iron pits in Orbissau in Bohemia, one discovered a former wood 15 to 20 feet under the ground, whose trees hat not fossilized on the normal way, but had been transformed into iron ore. Meanwhile these trunks have still had all branches and branches, and nobody could carry the slightest doubt that these have been formerly trees of a wood. One has also used these trunks of iron stone to melt it to iron, and has found them to be even more efficient, than the remaining iron stone that was surrounding it. Also here one is not able to get to another imagination than from an extensively long period that made such a change happen.

Some other old sources confirm this discovery that must have been before 1770. One speaks about the identification of alder trees and even worm holes were visible.

_I am unfamiliar with the German fossils you referenced, however in my own fossil collection I have two fossils that are of limonite mineral [an iron ore commonly found in soil]. While iron oxides are not an uncommon form of petrifaction, what is unusual [at least to me] about my fossils is that they are both fossilized dung. Chalk up that one for rapid petrifaction!
Last edited by Lloyd on Fri Feb 24, 2023 8:19 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:43 pm

PS, regarding Expanding Earth theory, I covered that in 2017 at https://cnps.boards.net/thread/27/prove ... ics?page=1
JoeB wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:00 am There never was a supercontinent. Earth grew. The ocean floor is all less than 180 million years old. It's new, and it's gradually newer from the coast to the center, so it is obvious when the new material was created.

Just look up age of the lithosphere and compare it to the time frame that dinosaurs and all animals gradually got smaller due to increased gravity.

Pretty simple.
Your mainstream supposition about seafloor stripes is disproven at https://newgeology.us and by the fact that the sedimentary rock strata must have been deposited over a short period of time. In the reference after my PS above I had told Expanding Earth theorists that their models are unsupported if they cannot show the same rock strata and fossils on opposite shores of the Pacific as is the case on opposite shores of the Atlantic and if they cannot show how the new mass comes about. There are likely many other problems with Expanding Earth theory as well.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JoeB » Sun Feb 26, 2023 4:46 pm

I don't see the proof you are talking about. There are no problems with expanding earth, because that's what happened. If you don't know how the mass is created, that's your problem. The big bang doesn't know where it came from either. I will just say there are lots of little bangs happening everywhere. The big bang miracle is total bs.

Plus, many theories have been accepted before we understood all of the underlying mechanisms, especially when they are blatantly obvious. I showed this to 3 lawyers and they all agreed that the size of the animals over time was proof enough. :lol:

here:

https://www.dinox.org/publications/Maxl ... eodata.pdf

Lloyd wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:43 pm PS, regarding Expanding Earth theory, I covered that in 2017 at https://cnps.boards.net/thread/27/prove ... ics?page=1
JoeB wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:00 am There never was a supercontinent. Earth grew. The ocean floor is all less than 180 million years old. It's new, and it's gradually newer from the coast to the center, so it is obvious when the new material was created.

Just look up age of the lithosphere and compare it to the time frame that dinosaurs and all animals gradually got smaller due to increased gravity.

Pretty simple.
Your mainstream supposition about seafloor stripes is disproven at https://newgeology.us and by the fact that the sedimentary rock strata must have been deposited over a short period of time. In the reference after my PS above I had told Expanding Earth theorists that their models are unsupported if they cannot show the same rock strata and fossils on opposite shores of the Pacific as is the case on opposite shores of the Atlantic and if they cannot show how the new mass comes about. There are likely many other problems with Expanding Earth theory as well.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit » Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:37 pm

JoeB says, "Just look up age of the lithosphere and compare it to the time frame that dinosaurs and all animals gradually got smaller due to increased gravity."

In the Electric Universe model, G is not a fundamental constant. G is a variable. One way a rocky body may increase its gravity is by increasing its mass by increasing its matter; this is what the theory of the growing/expanding earth rests on.

But in the Electric Universe, all the planets and moons in the solar system are charged objects in a plasma environment.

This means that they can exchange charge -- and if gravity is an electric effect, the gravity of an object can be altered by a change in its electrical charge state.

The exchange of electrical charges between the planets happened during a catastrophic period of instability in the solar system.

That is the way that many of us see the problem of a change in earth's gravity.

Lloyd, allynh & Aardwolf, etc. have their own variations on how earth's gravity changed, which differ from what I just described.



PS Lloyd, super interesting post on fossilization; I read it all with great interest and also -- with fond memories of our old thread. I have finally worked out, I believe, the process of electrical fossilization in the case of sandstone concretions.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Mar 03, 2023 10:14 pm

Brigit wrote: Mon Feb 27, 2023 7:37 pm PS Lloyd, super interesting post on fossilization; I read it all with great interest and also -- with fond memories of our old thread. I have finally worked out, I believe, the process of electrical fossilization in the case of sandstone concretions.
Where have you posted on that?

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by nick c » Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:29 am

Maybe Brigit is referring to this thread from V2.0
Mummified Dinosaurs/electric fossilization...?"

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Mar 06, 2023 3:43 am

237911

COAL FORMED IN THE GREAT FLOOD
It formed rapidly about 5,000 years ago.
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... reat-flood

{Below is most of the info I've collected on coal in this thread, starting with the most recent. Curly brackets {} indicate newly added info.}

-1- “COAL” OF MT. ST. HELENS
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=765
_GW: I have a box of rocks in my classroom including coalified and petrified wood, from the 1980 eruption of Mt. St. Helens, gleaned from ash in the logjam area near Spirit Lake. ... Coalified wood is also rapidly achieved with a minimal amount of added heat and the presence of a silica rich catalist such as clay, a common matrix material for coal.

-2- MOST RADIOACTIVITY IS IN GRANITE, SHALE, PHOSPHATE & COAL
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=750
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =690#p7573
_The reason most radioactivity is in granite, shale, phosphate and coal is because the granite continents have higher radioactivity & shale & phosphate must have formed mainly from continental granite. (Shale formed as mud on the continental shelf or slope of Pangaea, then the Great Flood washed most of the mud back onto Pangaea where it became shale or mudstone.) Coal formed from plants which grew from the breakdown products of the continental granite.

-3- WYOMING COAL
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=720
The Tejas {uppermost sedimentary rock megasequence} deposited Powder River coal beds in Montana and Wyoming.

-4- TSUNAMIS, TREES, VOLCANOES TO COAL
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=705
_Coal formed from floating hollow lycopod tree-forests in eastern North America and Europe which were destroyed by violently turbulent {Great Flood} tsunamis. Coal in other locations formed from normal trees {during the same Flood}. The wood which sank to the bottom of floodwaters was only able to form coal because of **clay catalysts from volcanic eruptions {which mixed in with the felled trees}.

ARTIFACTS FOUND IN COAL
_Video #4 ... describes ancient objects embedded in coal, concretions etc. The coal beds were certainly formed during the Great Flood. This is finally the evidence I've been looking for to prove that advanced tech existed before the Great Flood. ... An iron pot and a brass bell were found in coal in two different places and times. ...
_One was an iron pot made of iron that doesn't rust. One was a brass bell, mostly copper, that also doesn't "rust". ... The end of the handle of the bell depicts probably a god of India mythology. {Since the gods were based on the Saturn configuration}, that would apparently mean that the Saturn Configuration was [visible since] before the Flood. {Or was this coal formed during the YD Flood?}

COAL IN MEGASEQUENCES
_There seems to be good indication that the Great Flood continued after the breakup and deposited those last two megasequences. There are also some possible problems with that model, so that there may have been a few centuries of time elapsed before the last two megasequences. But the coal beds were deposited within those megasequences. Destroyed Lycopod forests formed the coal beds in the supercontinent interior and destroyed forests of modern trees formed coal beds elsewhere, such as in the U.S. northwest.

-5- LYCOPOD FORESTS TO COAL
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=690
**FLOATING LYCOPOD FORESTS {Image is from Creation.com}
_The log imprints came from trees growing before the Flood. There must have been trillions of trees floating on the Flood waters. Mount St. Helens provides an example. During the eruption, the waters of Spirit Lake washed up onto the mountain side and washed down trees, resulting in a million logs floating on Spirit Lake. Most eventually got water-logged and sank, but a quarter million logs are still floating after 35 years. The antediluvian world was apparently more lush than today. These were a different kind of trees, called lycopods, which were hollow and had rhizomes, instead of roots. Lycopod forests floated on water. During the Flood, they became floating log mats. The turbulence knocked off the bark which then sank to the bottom of the Flood waters and turned into coal.
_Video: Huge Layers of Coal, Dayton, TN

CONTINENT-WIDE LYCOPOD FOREST DETRITUS WITH VOLCANIC ASH FORMED COAL
_In this coal mine on the ceiling are imprints of lycopod logs in shale instead of sandstone. Atop the shale is a coal seam with very flat top and bottom. The lycopod log mat sank over time to form a layer of bark and rhizomes. The coal wasn't formed in swamps. Swamp debris doesn't contain identifiable bark & rhizome pieces and doesn't form flat tops & bottoms. Coal seams are interlayered with thin seams of shale. The log mats must have dropped layers of bark, then moved away by wind while a thin layer of clay deposited. In the Illinois basin this cycle repeated 120 times.
_Nautiloid beds are in a lime mud, which flowed fast enough over the bottom of a body of water that it hydroplaned, without disturbing the layer of sediment under it. The shale seams in coal beds formed similarly and sometimes contain fossils, mostly marine fossils from the ocean. This coal seam extends from Canada to under the Gulf of Mexico and from Missouri to Russia. The plants and pollen and animals in the coal are the same throughout the entire continent-wide coal bed.
_{Kurt said he did experiments on making rocks etc.} It only takes minutes to form most rocks from mineral powders under high heat and pressure. It took longer to form rocks at lower temperatures. The slowest forming rock Kurt made was coal, which took 3 or 4 weeks at about the boiling point of water. Putting only plant material into an oven never forms coal. In order to form coal, plants need a catalyst such as clay, i.e. montmorillonite, ilmenite, etc. When coal is burned, it leaves an unburnable ash, which is one of these clay catalysts. They come from volcanic ash, the fallout from volcanic eruptions.

VIBRATIONAL RESONANCE AFFECTED COAL DEPOSITION
_{ https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j30 ... _48-49.pdf It appears there was a resonance of the asthenosphere between the two probable free ends of the Appalachian and Rocky Mountains. (One end could possibly be a forced end.) This resonance would explain the coal basins in New England having multiple turbidites, maceral plumes, unusual anthracite coal chemical composition, and fragmentary lycopod fossils. The pieces of the floating forest were being periodically spilled over the top of the Appalachian Mountains (the eastern end of the continental resonant basin).

-6- LUSH PREFLOOD VEGETATION FORMED COAL
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=675
_The severity and elevation of this stage of the Flood is why the first land creatures and plants start showing up in the fossil record laid down by the Absaroka megasequence.
_Entire ecosystems are buried in enormous deposits that later turn into coal, such as the extensive Appalachian coal beds. In fact, the U.S. has over seven trillion tons of coal reserves. Where did it all come from? While we know that coal is formed by dead plant material being sandwiched between sediment layers, we only have enough vegetation on the Earth's surface today to produce just a fraction of the existing coal reserves.
_This shows that the pre-Flood world was mostly covered by lush vegetation. The rising Flood waters and tsunamis that were necessary to sweep over the land and bury vast amounts of vegetation that turned into coal are best explained by a catastrophe of worldwide proportions.

WHEN OLDER COAL FORMED
_All of the older coal deposits had already been formed before any of the present-day {Atlantic & Indian} ocean crust had formed.

SOME RADIOHALO EVIDENCE FOR DATING COAL
See also Gentry's video: Young Earth and Strong Evidence That Noah's Flood Laid the Sedimentary Layers (which shows how coalified wood can form rapidly)
NOTE: This video starts out with a quote from a 1977 issue of Research Communications Network, written, I believe, by Steve Talbott, brother of Dave Talbott, who had published Pensee' magazine for the previous 2 years. That's when I first heard about Gentry's radiohalo findings. {See} https://creation.com/the-collapse-of-geologic-time
_There is spectacular, but little-known, evidence that is completely inconsistent with the evolutionary timescale, but entirely consistent with ... a young Earth and a catastrophic global Flood.
_The evidence is provided by radio–halos in coalified wood. This work has been published in some of the best peer-reviewed scientific journals, and its strong case against evolution’s millions of years is so far unanswered by the evolutionary community.
_Radiohalos have also been found in logs recovered from uranium mines on the Colorado Plateau of Western USA. The logs, partially turned to coal, were found in uranium-rich sedimentary rocks from three different geological formations.
_Fossilized dinosaur footprints have been found in these Colorado mines. In Cyprus Plateau Mine (Utah), a fossilized dinosaur footprint was found in the coal seam next to one of the many coalified logs of the plateau. In Kenilworth Mine, eight different types of dinosaur tracks were found.
_{The first article shows good evidence that coal formed rapidly during a Great Flood when dinosaurs hurried along through dense water-logged vegetation likely seeking to escape.}
_{(FLATTENED HALOS) It looks like Gentry et al. were wrong that the radiohalos (discolorations in mica, coal etc) were formed by alpha decay of polonium 210. Instead, they were surely formed by alpha decay of radon 222, a gas that can migrate away from its source U238 rather easily through rock microfractures (and cleavage planes).}
_{One of Gentry's findings was that} some coalified wood with radiohalos was ... smashed {probably by the weight of overburden}, making some of the radiohalos in the wood initially elliptical instead of spherical.
_Whereas most Cambrian–Recent graphite deposits occur in readily identifiable metamorphosed coal–bearing sedimentary rocks, Precambrian graphite deposits are commonly found in medium to high–grade regionally metamorphosed schists and gneisses “of controversial origin”

-7- TEJAS SEQUENCE IS ERODED DEPOSITS FROM ZUNI
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=660
_Deposits in the Tejas include the thickest and most extensive coal seams in the world (Clarey 2017a). [See Figure 13.]
_These huge mats of transported trees, almost exclusively non-lycopods, likely represented plants swept off the uplands.
_The Flood, apparently ‘wiped off’ these areas of highest elevation, where most of the large mammals, flowering plants and possibly humans may have existed,
spreading their remains in sedimentary layers on top of the earlier buried dinosaurs in rocks now identified as Cenozoic strata.

VAPOR CANOPY & LUSH VEGETATION
_Some have suggested that the vapour canopy caused a greenhouse effect before the Flood with a pleasant subtropical-to-temperate climate all around the globe, even at the poles where today there is ice. This would have caused the growth of lush vegetation on the land all around the globe. The discovery of coal seams in Antarctica containing vegetation that is not now found growing at the poles, but which obviously grew under warmer conditions, was taken as support for these ideas.

-8- COAL IS YOUNG
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=630
_Carbon-14 {is} in Fossils, Coal, and Diamonds {so they must all be much younger than thought.}
https://answersingenesis.org/geology/ca ... -diamonds/

DROPSTONES ARE SOMETIMES FOUND IN COAL
https://creation.com/kelp-dropstones
_There are lots of problems with the glacial interpretation of dropstones.1,3 These rocks can be deposited by many mechanisms other than floating ice, including bottom-hugging debris flows or turbidity currents, floating kelp, swimming animals, volcanic eruptions, meteorite impacts,4–6 and from floating tree stumps. Uprooted trees commonly contain soil and rock in the root ball (figure 1). The latter presumably explains boulders sometimes found in coal.7

-9- GOD STAR: ARCTIC TREES & COAL
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=615
_p.361 As early as the nineteenth century it was "admitted by all scientific authorities that at one time the regions within the Arctic Circle enjoyed a tropical or nearly tropical climate."
_p.363 The Canadian island of Axel Heiberg, in Nunavut, well above the Arctic Circle, well beyond the present tree line, is littered with the remains of ancient forests - stumps, logs, and remnants of leaves and even fruit. Although the relics of such forests are known from other parts of the world, those on Axel Heiberg are exceptional because, unlike other remains, they have not been petrified. On the contrary, the remains have maintained their original form and even tissue.
_Barren, gaunt, and forbidding as the island now is, its rolling hills bear the traces of more than twenty separate forest layers, stacked on top of each other, all of which are found in situ, testifying to growth on the spot rather than transmission by the forces of nature.
[COMMENT: The separate forest layers might have been deposited by flooding, as trees often sink in vertical position and sediment can bury them gradually over months' time, I think. The forests may have come from not so far away, in which case the following would make sense.]
_p.365 The coal-bearing sediments of the Eureka Sound Group scattered throughout most of the Arctic Archipelago also contain such remains.
_Trees from the middle Eocene in the same area reached up to 50 meters high.
{NEW COMMENT: Coal in the Arctic is probably better explained by rapid continental drift, which moved Alaska & eastern Siberia from lower latitudes to the Arctic Circle during the Great Flood. Likewise, coal in Antarctica is similarly explained; rapid continental drift moved most of Antarctica from near the equator of Africa to the south pole.}

-10- VELIKOVSKY'S CONCLUSION
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=240
_In addition to mixed plant debris from different botanical zones, some coal contains fossils of marine organisms which, when living, required vastly different environments. Erratic boulders and chunks of iron are also found in coal seams. These characteristics encouraged the suggestion that some materials washed down rivers and stacked up in bends to form coal. This overcomes many of the peat-bog problems, but does not explain the presence of ocean-dwelling species and the fact that deep sea crinoids and clear-water ocean corals often alternate with coal seams in thick beds. The suggestion of Velikovsky was as follows: "Forests burned, a hurricane uprooted them, and a tidal wave or succession of tidal waves coming from the sea {fell upon the charred and splintered trees and swept them into great heaps, tossed by billows, and covered them with marine sand, pebbles and shells, and weeds and fishes; another tide deposited on top of the sand more carbonized logs, threw them in other heaps, and again covered them with marine sediment. The heated ground metamorphosed the charred wood into coal, and if the wood or the ground where it was buried was drenched in a bituminous outpouring, bituminous coal was formed. Wet leaves sometimes survived the forest fires and, swept into the same heaps of logs and sand, left their design on the coal. Thus it is that seams of coal are covered with marine sediment; for that reason also a seam may bifurcate and have marine deposits between its branches."}

FISH IN COAL
_The most celebrated remains of fossil fish in Europe are those of the Saarbrucken in Germany. But these are found in coal formations.3 Does that mean that the coal in question was formed from the remains of unspoiled fish? Can coal be formed from fish? Or is it that the bituminous substance that went into the formation of coal also entombed the fish found in it? But then where did the bituminous substance come from?

-11- HYDROCARBONS FROM METEORS TO COAL?
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=225
{https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01808308 Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) in C1 and C2 Carbonaceous Chondrites appear to be the product of a high-temperature synthesis.}
That's evidence that comets may contain hydrocarbons too, since meteorites may come from comets.

-12- BITUMINOUS & ANTHRACITE COAL COMPOSITION
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... &start=210
"Bituminous coal is more metamorphosed and the plant parts are more flattened, but it is still possible to study plant fragments within the coal. Anthracite coal, the most highly metamorphosed type, is altered to such an extent that little of the original plant material is recognizable. Some coals can be thin sectioned for microscopic examination, and pollen grains, spores, and fragments of cuticle can be discerned.
_Bituminous coal predominates in the Upper Carboniferous, where it occurs extensively from Texas all the way to the Donetz coal basin, north of the Caspian Sea.

WORLD COAL MAP
_Here's a good map of world coal deposits. Looks like the most coal is in northern Asia and eastern Australia.
_Much of the mountainous country in northern China, from Manchuria to the Kazakh border, is covered in coal seams which lie close to the surface. These often ignite spontaneously and it is estimated that up to 200 million tonnes of coal are being incinerated each year [by wildfire].

DATING COAL
_Specimens of coal from Spain thought to be tens of millions of years old were radiocarbon dated to 5,025 and 4,250 years ago by Gifsur-Yvette testing labs. (Radiocarbon Vol. 8 (1966).

ARCTIC/ANTARCTIC COAL LACK OF SUNLIGHT
_The late Cretaceous ... is the period when the huge coal deposits were formed on the Arctic slope. Much of this coal comes from evergreens, which could not have survived in high latitudes due to the lack of sunlight.... (Anonymous; "Fragmented Alaska," Open Earth, no. 17, 1982.)
_Evidence of warmer climates that once prevailed in the Arctic was brought to light in the nineteenth century with the discovery of coal in the Canadian Arctic Archipeliga.
_Coal beds are also known from Spitzbergen {in the Arctic}....
_No landmass in Antarctica's present position could have supported the vegetation that has become the low-grade coal in the Transantarctic Mountains, perhaps the world's most extensive coal formation." A well-known Antarctic fossil plant is Glossopteris, a flora dating from the earliest part of the Permian but which had vanished by the Triassic. Glossopteris included bug trees with annual growth rings, an indicator of seasonality; these flora were fossilized into coal beds on several parts of Antarctica. Coal deposits, with Glossopteris leaves and conifer needles, have been found within 250 miles of the South Pole.
_Antarctica undoubtedly had a warm distant past, as coal seams running through the Transantarctic Mountains are some of the most extensive on earth.
{As I commented above, Antarctica and the northern continents moved toward the poles during rapid continental drift during the Great Flood. So the forests grew in normal sunlight at lower latitudes, then those continents moved poleward.}

COAL ANALYSES ETC
_"Lignin + Clay = Coal" source: NEW SCIENTIST 1.9.83, p. 623 Scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy have recently been able to produce coal artificially by heating lignin (the substance that binds plant cells together) and various clays. The clays appear to catalyze the conversion of lignin to coal: low grade coal can easily be produced by such methods by heating at 300 F for as little as two weeks. High grade coals require longer heating.
_A combination of iron catalyst, heat, pressure and vibration on vegetable matter produces fuel, oil or coal depending on whether water is trapped in the reaction or not. Heat seems to be the crucial factor in the production of fossils.

SHATTER CONES IN COAL
_Bucher further presented shatter cones made of bituminous coal, which, of course, could not be explained by meteorite impact. He explained that high-pressure gas, impregnating the pores of permeable rock, will make rock so brittle that it will react to stresses by forming shatter cones.

CARDONA: TREE RINGS
_Carboniferous trees lack rings, as do trees found in coal swa[m]ps. Trees found in the Permian period, and also in Canada, Europe and Asia often have weak tree rings. South American trees often have strong tree rings. In the Triassic period, and in the Amazon, there are found a mixture of trees both with and without tree rings. Some tropical trees do not grow rings, some grow 3 or 4 rings per season. In the dry season, rings may be missing. What all this shows is that tree rings are not determined by seasons, but by water and growing periods {and sometimes by species}.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Mar 23, 2023 2:02 am

241278

3a..3 PREFLOOD TO POSTFLOOD WORLD
A Video Transcript with Images.
I posted the transcript on the Thunderbolts forum last year, I think. Lately I added images and some comments and posted it at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... lood-world

MATHIS: ADVANCED ANCIENT CIVILIZATION
Miles Mathis Theory & My Comments
{I just posted the following at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... vilization
which includes images and a video}

{MEETING MATHIS} Miles Mathis has a science website at http://milesmathis.com. I think I first found his site in 2011. I discussed his science ideas with others quite a bit on the Thunderbolts.info forum at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/. I also interviewed Miles in 2011 on that forum, if I recall the year correctly. I organized a small group from that forum for discussion. One of the group members then created a forum for extensive discussion at https://milesmathis.forumotion.com/forum. Some of the others wrote more there than I did, but I wrote a lot too. I listed my thread titles with their links at http://funday.createaforum.com/improve/ilki-222/.

{THUNDERBOLTS FORUM} The Thunderbolts website was founded by Dave Talbott, a fan of Immanuel Velikovsky, who had written Worlds in Collision and Earth in Upheaval in the 1950s. Velikovsky perused ancient mythology and concluded that Earth was a moon of Saturn thousands of years ago and that Venus had catastrophic close encounters with Earth and Mars about 3,000 to 3,500 years ago and that Mars had similar close encounters with Earth about 2,700 years ago. Talbott and others disagreed with Velikovsky about the dating of the events. They found that the events occurred about 4,500 years ago.

{CRITIQUING CATASTROPHISTS} Miles Mathis wrote a paper within the last 2 years, I think, claiming Velikovsky appeared to be partly correct about Venus, but Miles decided that Velikovsky and his colleagues were conspirators who were in a project to deceive their readers. Later he decided that Talbott and his colleagues were/are also conspirators. ... I doubt that Velikovsky, Talbott and most of the others are/were agents, though.

{SIMILARITIES BETWEEN MODELS} After his two papers critiquing Velikovsky and Talbott, Miles wrote a paper about his theory that humans came from the Saturn moon, Titan, which has a thick atmosphere. He suggested that the former inhabitants of Titan polluted the atmosphere so thoroughly that they had to move to Earth. Talbott's theory was a little similar by saying that Earth was a moon of Saturn, so Titan would have been nearby, but not the origin of humanity. Miles figured that the Venus encounter with Earth occurred many thousands of years ago, instead of just 3 to 5 thousand years ago. I'll explain below what I think about that and about Miles' recent paper, which I'm quoting extensively, next.

{VERY ANCIENT ALIEN-HUMAN CIVILIZATION}
Pyramids and Other Things http://milesmathis.com/pyr2.pdf

{Section Titles in curly brackets are my additions.}

{EXPLOSIONS IN PYRAMIDS} ... One, I discovered [Nicola] Tesla was working hard on unlocking [the secrets of] the pyramids late in life; and two, I discovered there are signs of explosions in the interior. So either someone was trying to damage the interior passages or galleries, or the explosion was caused by some sort of malfunction of the apparatus. The first has been proposed, the second has not. . . to my knowledge.

Pyramid Power by YngvarAsplund.deviantart.com on @deviantART | Space ...
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/538461699179998558/
{CHARGE FIELD POWERED PYRAMIDS} I have been working on this on and off, mostly off, for years, and I feel I am getting close to cracking it. The reason the bit about Tesla helps is that it implies he was on the same track I am. You can't even begin to understand how the pyramid works without first understanding the Earth's charge field. In my opinion, only Tesla and I have known that. Admittedly, he knew a lot more than me about electricity, working in labs, and working with machines. But I make up for that by knowing more than he knew about Celestial Mechanics. He knew about the charge field because he measured it in the lab and learned to harness it. I know about it because I deduced it from rewriting all the old foundational equations of gravity. Which gives me a leg up in some ways. I have done some things he never thought of doing, like mapping the atomic nucleus or mapping the charge routes of the Solar System. So I have been attacking the problem from more fronts, and coming at it from larger and smaller scales than Tesla.

Since I am approaching 60 and the world is very unstable, I thought it best to put to paper everything I know on the subject, or a least a broad outline of it, for the sake of posterity. The future may find it useful.

{MODERN CONSPIRACY} I have said before that the pyramids are definitely not tombs for pharaohs. That is an obvious dodge. So why dodge us with such a pathetic story? Probably because they are working on it as well and don't want to get scooped. I assume top people have been working on this for decades, maybe centuries. But since they don't have the main pieces of the puzzle, they haven't gotten very far. Even with Tesla's notebooks they may not have gotten very far. That is because they lacked the charge field, and it is the central player here. You have to understand that the pyramid is, in the first instance, focusing the charge field, to understand anything else it is doing, or could do. It is doing that right now, so it is semi-functional even in this derelict state.

{HEMISPHERIC POWER POTENTIAL} Another reason they aren't getting anywhere is that the Great Pyramid is considered to be a national monument, one that no one would even think of restoring. It would be like restoring the Mona Lisa: verboten. Its use to Egypt as a tourist attraction is too great. Rebuilt, it would no longer be a museum piece. But if the Great Pyramid is actually a working super-generator, capable of supplying power to the entire Eastern Hemisphere — and I think that it is — that consideration should obviously be trumped.

Was There An Explosion In The Great Pyramid In Antiquity? | Ancient Origins
https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/d ... sion-3.jpg
{ACCIDENTAL EXPLOSIONS} But I am getting ahead of myself. The second discovery — that the Pyramid has been damaged inside by explosions — is equally important, since it sends us into new territory. Let us assume the Pyramid was not sabotaged, instead assuming it was damaged in some sort of accident. It was humming along, pulling down energy from the ionosphere, when something went wrong. I suggest there was a drought, the Nile dried up, and the water that was normally in the Pyramid wasn't there. Like an old car battery without any water in it. You used to have to keep your battery topped with water, and that is because the water is being used as a medium for the charge. It is part of the electrolyte. If your battery dries out, it will stop working, because there is no medium for the charge. But the Pyramid is more than a battery. It is a sort of battery+generator+lens, so when the electrolyte was removed, you have an immediate stoppage of a huge amount of power. So the explosion was probably more like a very fast compression or decompression. The Pyramid lost a huge amount of charge in just a couple of seconds, becoming smaller all at once. Think of how normal things expand and shrink in heat and cold, but much much moreso.

In fact, we may see evidence for that in the current state of these big pyramids. It is known by some that the faces are slightly concave. It is assumed by everyone they were built that way. I suggest they weren't. When the Pyramid crashed, it imploded, causing this compression.

{IRREPARABLE} So, the Pyramid crashed. But why didn't they fix it? That is the million-dollar question, and the only possible answer is . . . they couldn't. Why not? Anything you can build you should be able to repair. There are two possible answers, as I see it. 1) due to the method of construction, this interior damage couldn't be reached for repair. To get to the cracks, you would have to drill, and a drill is just another crack. Besides, they had nothing to seal them with that was as strong as the original rock compression. The overall seal was dependent on the construction, which was from precisely cut rocks of huge dimension. You can't recreate that with any sealant. Or 2) the people who had built the Pyramids weren't there anymore. They were built by off-world colonists who returned at intervals to check on us, but something happened to them and they never came back to fix the Pyramids.

If the answer is 1), then it might be that we have sealants they didn't have back then. Back then they would have just injected some sort of concrete in there, but we might be able to inject molten alloys or plastics. It is remotely possible we know of some tech they didn't.

{ASTEROID BELT ORIGIN} If the answer is 2), let us pursue that for a moment. That might tie into some other mysteries, mightn't it? What if the original people of this system weren't born here on Earth? You probably know about Ceres, the perfect Moon at the center of the asteroid belt. It has long been a big mystery—one so big even the conspiracy theorists rarely hit it. What you may not know is that the asteroids are too small in toto to be the remnants of Ceres' original planet. Ceres is .0128Moons, and the asteroid belt (minus Ceres) is about half that again. So the asteroids may be the remnants of a second moon or of an intruder, but they are not the remnants of Ceres' primary. As I have said in previous papers, the best guess is Venus was Ceres' primary, and she was originally orbiting above the Earth. There was probably a second satellite and maybe even a third.

{ALIEN COLONIES IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM} I think these people were just like us. In fact, they were us. They are the ones that colonized the Earth, possibly Titan, and possibly other locations in the Solar System. So they were more advanced than we are now, but not hugely more advanced. If the Pyramids are super-generators, they are pretty amazing tech, but honestly not “millions of years in the future” advanced. Tech millions of years in the future advanced would not be made of big stones, and I would have no chance of understanding even a part of it.

{CRO-MAGNON ALIENS} I think it likely it is these people who were what we call the Cro-magnons, putting the local Neanderthals out of business. Later they came back and built the Pyramids, prepping the Earth for overflow. But something happened to them many thousands of years ago, stranding both us and their colonists on Titan. Some of the colonists on Titan may have escaped and drifted down here, but it appears they didn't know how to restart the Pyramids, either. So here we are, thousands of years later, still living the big mystery.

Modeling of Venus/Titan atmosphere
https://pat.gp.tohoku.ac.jp/modeling-of ... e/?lang=en {Venus on the right is much larger than Titan.}
{TITAN & VENUS COLONIES} What happened on Venus to our old ones? I have said before that I thought it might be a Moon from Jupiter getting hit by an intruder, bumping down into Venus in its original position and causing havoc. But now that I have had more time to think on it, I no longer think that is the most likely scenario. Last night I intuited a different cause. “Intuiting” that cause required me to understand how the Pyramid here works, because that allowed me to see what they were probably working on as the next step after the Pyramid. If the Pyramid is drawing down energy from the ionosphere, then the next step is to draw down energy from something even bigger and more powerful: the Moon. There is a lot of energy stored in the relationship of Earth and its ionosphere, but there is far more in the relationship between the Earth and Moon. So if the Venusians had created an economy that required more energy than their own ionosphere could produce, they may have been toying with drawing down energy from their Moons, using some sort of second-generation Pyramid. Plus, we have seen that their colonists on Titan seem to have soon polluted that atmosphere beyond all repair, so they may have done the same thing on Venus. Cleaning an entire atmosphere is possible, but only with huge amounts of energy. It is possible they needed to tap their moons in order to do that.

{PYRAMID LUNAR POWER} You may not see the source of the power, since moons don't commonly have ionospheres. Well, this second-generation Pyramid wouldn't be tapping an EM source like that, which turned out to be the problem. The Pyramid would be tapping the unified field itself — in other words, the relationship itself. The potential energy stored in the system. To do that would require stealing momentum from the moons, which would change their orbits. Obviously, when you do that you are playing with fire, since it you make a mistake, it can be fatal. I would say the best guess is the Venusians made a mistake, two of their Moons collided, at least one was destroyed, and the orbit of Venus was also destroyed. She probably hit so much wreckage she was slowed down too much to maintain orbit, and began to fall.

{VENUS ENCOUNTER} She got past the Earth with only minor catastrophe and settled in her current orbit, but got flipped over in passing us or Mars. So she is still spinning the wrong way. No one on the planet survived it. Only those in off-world colonies survived, so it is good they colonized.

{EXPLOIT PYRAMIDS} So, if I am right about the Pyramid, that should be a lesson in the distant future. Toying with orbits is very dangerous, though I think that goes without saying. My feeling is that the Great Pyramid is repairable, and that we should immediately put together an international team to repair it.

MY COMMENTS ON MILES' PYRAMID THEORY
60% {EXPLOSIONS IN PYRAMIDS} This seems at least 60% probable, although I haven't heard much about such explosions in the Great Pyramid.

50% {CHARGE FIELD POWERED PYRAMIDS} This is plausible, but I haven't seen enough evidence for this to say it's probable. It does seem probable that ancient people used the pyramids for some kind of power or something practical, not just for religious purposes. Ancient Architects suggested that the Great Pyramid was a ram pump to water crops as rains became scarce and the Sahara started to expand.

40% {MODERN CONSPIRACY} I don't know of any evidence that oligarchs are trying to extract energy or power from the pyramids.

30% {HEMISPHERIC POWER POTENTIAL} I don't know of evidence that pyramids can provide enough energy to power half of the Earth's present usage.

60% {ACCIDENTAL EXPLOSIONS} If there have been explosions in any of the pyramids, it seems likely that they would have been accidents.

50% {IRREPARABLE} Miles' reasoning seems plausible, but I don't know enough to judge whether the pyramids are irreparable.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2006/ ... teroid.htm
60% {ASTEROID BELT ORIGIN} Mainstream science says the asteroid belt formed from the solar nebula, but the Nebular Hypothesis is very improbable. Talbott and colleagues suggest that a Saturn nova (or flare-up) or collisions between planets or moons formed the asteroid belt about 4,500 years ago. I think that has a greater probability. Charles Chandler has good scientific theory behind the formation of the Moon and Ceres etc at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6031. However, he tends to place the formation much earlier, similar to Miles, or maybe even earlier than what Miles thinks.

40% {ALIEN COLONIES IN THE SOLAR SYSTEM} It's slightly plausible to me that humans inhabited other planets, especially since Mars and Venus were surely very close to Earth a few thousand years ago. If evidence of artifacts are ever found on the Moon or Mars, that would obviously raise the probability percentage to nearly 100%. I've seen images online that suggest there are such artifacts, but none have been very convincing so far. Richard Hoagland used to promote this theory.

30% {CRO-MAGNON ALIENS} I don't know of evidence that Cro-magnons were aliens. Their brain sizes are said to be larger than modern man, but that doesn't mean much alone.

10% {TITAN & VENUS COLONIES} It's unlikely that Titan & Venus were ever habitable. Venus may be a new planet, which would account for its high heat. Titan may be fairly new too, which might account for its thick atmosphere, thicker than Earth's.

10% {PYRAMID LUNAR POWER} I don't know of evidence that power could be derived from the Moon's relationship to Earth in any way.

70% {VENUS ENCOUNTER} The Saturn Theory seems likely to be correct, that Mars, Venus and Saturn were close to the Earth about 4,500 years ago and that Mars and Venus made close catastrophic encounters with the Earth before settling in their present orbits. Miles supposes that the light from the Sun has enough force to prevent large bodies from getting close to the Sun, but the fact that comets regularly go very close to the Sun, or even collide with it, suggests to me that his supposition is wrong. He and Charles Chandler have theories to explain the Titius-Bode law that notes the distances between the planets. Miles thinks EM radiation (like light) is emitted by the planets which repels them from each other. Miles calls this EM radiation the charge field, which he says also powered pyramids. Charles supposed that the planets have the same electric charge which repels them apart. Electric charge is from protons and electrons.

https://creation.com/the-way-it-really- ... ric-dating
10% {DATING} Miles says the Venus encounter with Earth occurred many thousands of years ago, which would mean that the pyramid builders lived many thousands of years ago. Graham Hancock and others share the belief that there was ancient civilization many thousands of years ago. Even Saturn theorists tend to think that sedimentary rock strata were deposited gradually over millions of years. But they're all wrong. The Great Flood occurred probably about 5,300 years ago and all of the sedimentary strata were deposited during and partly after the Great Flood. The pyramids are all built upon sedimentary rock strata, so they were built after the Flood. Some of the evidence for the time of the Flood includes that the oldest tree is about 4,700 years old and that continental granite dates to under 8,000 years old. The reason most of the sediments must have been deposited all at once (over a few months time) is that there is very little erosion between sedimentary layers, there is very little bioturbation (whereby animals burrow into the top of sediments), and the sediments are sorted into sandstone, mudstone (shale), and limestone, which sorting can only occur in major Flooding. I wrote about this at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substack.com/p/1.

30% {EXPLOIT PYRAMIDS} I doubt if the pyramids can provide enough power to pay for the cost of repairing them, but I'm willing to change my mind if I see good evidence.

Aardwolf
Posts: 1456
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Aardwolf » Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:59 pm

Lloyd wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:43 pmIn the reference after my PS above I had told Expanding Earth theorists that their models are unsupported if they cannot show the same rock strata and fossils on opposite shores of the Pacific as is the case on opposite shores of the Atlantic and if they cannot show how the new mass comes about.
Due to the "Ring of Fire" disruption around the Pacific it is unlikely after 200+ millions of years for there to any matching rock strata. You don't have the same issue for the Atlantic. Fossils are incredibly rare as they require perfect conditions and would potentially suffer from the same issue of destruction. However, there is research that does support the matching of existing flora, of which we have plenty of data, on opposite sides of the Pacific coasts. In fact, it would be impossible for them not to have been joined at these points. For example see below for David Noel's Nut Tree research for one;

http://aoi.com.au/NUSite/NU004.htm

Lloyd wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 7:43 pmThere are likely many other problems with Expanding Earth theory as well.
On the contrary, I find that EE theory explains far more and easier, many anomalies and issues, which fixed Earth theories need ever more additional and exotic theories to explain. It would still be the predominant theory if the additional material issue were solved, and that is something that will eventually provided by the EU once that is predominant.

danda
Posts: 54
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by danda » Fri Mar 24, 2023 11:36 pm

It's also fun to think about how the world would have looked if the Pangea "supercontinent" existed on a globe of today's size.

Here is one depiction.
https://i0.wp.com/eatrio.net/wp-content ... olitik.jpg

They of course always show the land mass front and center. But if we imagine rotating the globe 180 degrees, then it would be all ocean. So there's a huge "island" on one side of the planet and the rest is all ocean. That's pretty funny/odd to think about by itself. And then somehow we've gone from that to the present state where things have spread out so that land masses are 180 degrees apart, eg usa and china.

Seems a lot simpler that nothing has moved. The earth was smaller, land with small-ish seas. As the planet expanded, land stayed where it was, and the ever widening cracks became the ocean floor. Water vapor continues to enter the ocean from the deep sea vents.

Aardwolf wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:59 pm On the contrary, I find that EE theory explains far more and easier, many anomalies and issues, which fixed Earth theories need ever more additional and exotic theories to explain.

Arcmode
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2022 10:45 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Arcmode » Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:16 pm

Interviews with Ken Griffith on the dating of the Flood, Babel etc. by triangulating ancient historians.

Worth checking out.

Ancient History and the Bible: Listening to the Ancient Chroniclers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oakmY6ZZn2s

The Bible and History: Rethinking the Ancient World
(Discusses Velikovsky at around 40 minutes in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpGRVaKHeRA

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm

Aardwolf wrote: Fri Mar 24, 2023 5:59 pm Due to the "Ring of Fire" disruption around the Pacific it is unlikely after 200+ millions of years for there to any matching rock strata. You don't have the same issue for the Atlantic. Fossils are incredibly rare as they require perfect conditions and would potentially suffer from the same issue of destruction. However, there is research that does support the matching of existing flora, of which we have plenty of data, on opposite sides of the Pacific coasts. In fact, it would be impossible for them not to have been joined at these points. For example see below for David Noel's Nut Tree research for one;
http://aoi.com.au/NUSite/NU004.htm
Howdy.
_Firstly, dating methods are mostly imaginary: https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ng-methods
_Secondly, sedimentary rock strata were obviously all deposited over a short time period by a Great Flood just a few thousand years ago: https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substack.com/p/1
_Thirdly, the megasequences of the sedimentary rock record indicate that a large asteroid broke up Pangaea during the Flood, causing rapid continental drift and the formation of mountain ranges: http://newgeology.us/
_That explains how the continents got to where they are. No need for expansion, when a process involving known phenomena accounts for all of the present features of the Earth. And there's little evidence of expansion on any other solar system body and no explanation based on known processes for the extreme expansion that would have been required to more than double the size of the Earth. I meant to add that I've seen the evidence for expansion on Europa, but that's ice probably on an ocean where an impact or tidal pull could have broken the ice at one point, which then moved around and then refroze in a new position.
_In 2017 I evaluated 3 or 4 different Expanding Earth theories and they all failed to provide a known means for expansion. They all required hypothetical processes that are not observed.

Aardwolf
Posts: 1456
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Aardwolf » Tue Mar 28, 2023 4:45 pm

Hi Lloyd,

I didn’t really want to get into a discussion about your theory, just wanted to point out what I believe to have been unfair/unproven dismissals of EE theory.
Lloyd wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm _Firstly, dating methods are mostly imaginary: https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ng-methods
Maybe so, although I wasn’t relying on any particular dating methods. The Earth is old as far as I am concerned and supported by many other things aside from scientific methods.
Lloyd wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm _Secondly, sedimentary rock strata were obviously all deposited over a short time period by a Great Flood just a few thousand years ago: https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substack.com/p/1
Obviously? Sorry, not to me.
Lloyd wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm _Thirdly, the megasequences of the sedimentary rock record indicate that a large asteroid broke up Pangaea during the Flood, causing rapid continental drift and the formation of mountain ranges: http://newgeology.us/
That‘s just your particular theory and isn’t a dispute of EE theory. Just a competing interpretation.
Lloyd wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm _That explains how the continents got to where they are. No need for expansion, when a process involving known phenomena accounts for all of the present features of the Earth. And there's little evidence of expansion on any other solar system body and no explanation based on known processes for the extreme expansion that would have been required to more than double the size of the Earth. I meant to add that I've seen the evidence for expansion on Europa, but that's ice probably on an ocean where an impact or tidal pull could have broken the ice at one point, which then moved around and then refroze in a new position.
Again, no real dispute of EE there, just different ideas. However, there are a few queries that I cant see that this theory explains;

1) Why are marsupials confined to Australia with a few in America? How did the asteroid manage to fully encapsulate this entire class of animals (and mostly exclude mammals)? 2,000 years wouldn’t have been enough time to evolve that way so how did that happen?

2) From the paper I linked, why are there Carya species only found opposite side of the Pacific? Why are coconuts origins in Southeast Asia & South America? Why are mountainous Castanopsis only found in North America & China? How does Pangea with these coasts separated by either 16,000 miles of sea or 8,000 miles of land have mutual origins?

3) You state there is no evidence of expansion in the rest of the solar system, so there can be no evidence of crust movement, so, if an asteroid split apart our crust why hasn’t the same happened anywhere else? It only created 1,000 km basin on Earth. The moon has a 1,600 km basin with zero crust movement? Mars has many 500 km basins but no crust movement. Venus has a 300 km basin with no crust movement. Mercury has a 1,500 km basin and it’s tiny. If Earth received an impact that shattered its crust, Mercury should have been blown apart. Why is Earth crust so weak and everywhere else so stoic?

4) And of course the classic, how did the large dinosaurs thrive on planet they couldn't stand up on?
Lloyd wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 9:16 pm _In 2017 I evaluated 3 or 4 different Expanding Earth theories and they all failed to provide a known means for expansion. They all required hypothetical processes that are not observed.
Well, that’s just true of all theories. There’s no accretion observed anywhere. In fact when material like Saturn’s rings or the asteroid belt are observed the opposite is true, the material actively separates. And unlike other theories we do observe expansion on Earth, just look at the rifts which are observed and measured and earthquakes which always shear or separate creating more land. Subduction on the other is not observed and measured, merely theorised. The mainstream just “knows” it’s happening and one day they will find it, probably hiding in the same place as dark matter.

Regarding EE, I would argue the matter is just protons received from the Sun which provides more than enough to grow the Earth significantly over time. We already know protons penetrate the magnetosphere and into the atmosphere. Where does it all go after that? Travelling at 500 km/s it seems possible it just penetrates the crust.

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