Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Oct 19, 2022 2:22 am

212794

VELIKOVSKY'S QUOTES ON DATING CATACLYSM

[from] EARTH IN UPHEAVAL
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arch ... heaval.pdf
__[ARCTIC MUCK & MAMMOTHS]
_P.10. IN ALASKA, to the north of Mount McKinley, the tallest mountain in North America, the Tanana River joins the Yukon. From the Tanana Valley and the valleys of its tributaries gold is mined out of gravel and "muck." This muck is a frozen mass of animals and trees.
_What could have caused the Arctic Sea and the Pacific Ocean to irrupt and wash away forests with all their animal population and throw the entire mingled mass in great heaps scattered all over Alaska, the coast of which is longer than the Atlantic seaboard from Newfoundland to Florida? Was it not a tectonic revolution in the earth's crust, that also caused the volcanoes to erupt and to cover the peninsula with ashes?
_In various levels of the muck, stone artifacts were found "frozen in situ at great depths and in apparent association" with the Ice Age fauna, which implies that "men were contemporary with extinct animals in Alaska." * Worked flints, characteristically shaped, called Yuma points, were repeatedly found in the Alaskan muck, one hundred and more feet below the surface. One such spear point was found there between a lion's jaw and a mammoth's tusk.6 Similar weapons were used only a few generations ago by the Indians of the Athapascan tribe, who camped in the upper Tanana Valley.7 "It has also been suggested that even modern Eskimo points are remarkably Yuma-like,"8 all of which indicates that the multitudes of torn animals and splintered forests date from a time not many thousand years____ ago.
_In 1797 the body of a mammoth, with flesh, skin, and hair, was found in northeastern Siberia, and since then bodies of other mammoths have been unearthed from the frozen ground in various parts of that region. The flesh had the appearance of freshly frozen beef; it was edible, and wolves and sledge dogs fed on it without harm.1
_The ground must have been frozen ever since the day of their entombment; had it not been frozen, the bodies of the mammoths would have putrefied in a single summer, but they remained unspoiled for some thousands of years____. It is therefore absolutely necessary to believe that the bodies were frozen up immediately after the animals died, and were never once thawed, until the day of their discovery.
__[FOSSILS IN] THE CAVES OF ENGLAND
_p.18. Buckland was concerned "to establish two important facts, first, that there has been a recent and general inundation of the globej and, second, that the animals whose remains are found interred in the wreck of that inundation were natives of high north latitudes.*'
_Of the time the catastrophe occurred, which covered with mud and pebbles the bones in the Kirkdale cave, Buckland wrote: "From the limited quantity of postdiluvian stalactite, as well as from the undecayed condition of the bones," one must deduce that "the tune elapsed since the introduction of the diluvial mud has not been of excessive length.*' The bones were not yet fossilized; their organic matter was not yet replaced by minerals. Buckland thought that the time elapsed since a diluvial catastrophe could not have exceeded five or six thousand years____, the figure adopted also by De Luc, Dolo-mieu, and Cuvier, each of whom presented his own reasons.
__[WHALES IN MICHIGAN]
_p.32. In bogs covering glacial deposits in Michigan, skeletons of two whales were discovered. Whales are marine animals. How did they come to Michigan in the postglacial epoch? Whales do not travel by land. Glaciers do not carry whales, and the ice sheet would not have brought them to the middle of a continent. Besides, the whale bones were found in post-glacial deposits. Was there a sea in Michigan after the glacial epoch, only a few thousand years____ ago?
__[HIMILAYAN GLACIATION]
_p.47. R. Finsterwalder, exploring the Nanga Parbat massif in the western Himalayas (26,660 feet high), dated the Himalayan glaciation as post-glacial; in other words, the expansion of the glaciers in the Himalayas took place much closer to our time than had been previously assumed. Great uplifts of the Himalayas took place in part after the time designated as the Ice Age, or only a few thousand years____ ago.6
__[MEGALITHIC CITY IN THE ANDES]
_p.50. [Bellamy said:] All this happened millions of years before our moon was caught by the earth, and thus the ruins of the megalithic city Tiahuanacu are millions of years old, that is, the city must have been built long "before the Flood." This theory is bizarre. The geological record indicates a late elevation of the Andes, and the time of its origin is brought ever closer to our time. Archaeological and radiocarbon analyses indicate that the age of the Andean culture and of the city is not much older than four thousand years____. Not only the "built before the Flood" theory collapses; so does the belief that the last elevation of the Andes was in the Tertiary, or more than a million years ago. Sometime in the remote past the Altiplano was at or below sea level, so that originally its lakes were part of a sea gulf. The last upheaval, however, took place in an early historical period, after the city of Tiahuanacu had been built; the lakes were dragged up, and the Altiplano and the entire chain of the Andes rose to their present height.
__[NORTHWEST VOLCANISM]
_p.52. Only a few thousand years____ ago lava flowed there over an area larger than France, Switzerland, and Belgium combined; it flowed not as a creek, not as a river, not even as an overflowing stream, but as a flood, deluging horizon alter horizon, filling all the valleys, devouring ail the forests and habitations, steaming large lakes out of existence as though they were little potholes filled with water, swelling ever higher and overtopping mountains and burying them deep beneath molten stone, boiling and bubbling, thousands of feet thick, billions of tons heavy. In 1889, on the occasion of the boring of an artesian well at Nampa, Idaho, on the Columbia Plateau near the Snake River, a small figurine of baked clay was extracted from a depth of 320 feet, penetrated after piercing a sheet of basalt lava fifteen feet thick. G. F. Wright described the find and wrote: "The well was tubed with heavy iron tubing six inches in diameter, so that there could be no mistake about the occurrence of the image at the depth stated." He also added: "No one has come forward to challenge the evidence except on purely a priori grounds arising from
preconceived opinions of the extreme antiquity of the deposits." 4
__[MAGNETIC REVERSAL]
_p.80. 8 Manley speaks of "the possibility of its [earth's magnetic field] reversal in historical times, 2500 years____ ago, to be cleared up by more research." However, the more exact date is, according to the original works of Folgheraiter and Mercanton, the eighth century before the present era, or shortly thereafter.
__[PATAGONIAN VOLCANISM]
_p.81. In Patagonia volcanic eruptions have occurred down to fairly recent times, and the land between the Atlantic and the Andes is covered in many places with lava flows. All in all only about four or five hundred volcanoes on earth are considered active or dormant, against a multiplicity of extinct cones. Yet only five or six hundred years ago many of the presently inactive volcanoes were still active. This points to very great activity at a time only a few thousand years____ ago. At the rate of extinction witnessed by modern man, the greater part of the still active volcanoes will become inactive in a matter of several centuries.
__[METEORITES]
_p.83. According to a hypothesis offered by Swinne and referred to by H. Pettersson, "meteorites should be a relatively recent occurrence, limited to the last 25,000 years, and have been absent during preceding millions of years. 8
__[SWEDISH GLACIERS]
_p.84. Of the methods used to find how much time has passed since the ice cover started to melt, the "varve" method, until recently, was thought to be fairly precise. This method was introduced by G. de Geer, who counted the annual bands of silt and clay ("varves") deposited, coarse in summer and fine in winter, under the ice in the coastal lakes and rivers of Sweden, once covered by the glacial sheet of the Ice Age. De Geer calculated that it had taken about 5000 years____ to melt the ice cover from Schonen, at the southern tip of Sweden, to the place in the north where there are still glaciers in the mountains. In no place are there five thousand overlying varves; but De Geer looked for similar series or patterns of thick and thin varves from one lake to another, about fifteen hundred outcrops altogether, always with the thought that a varve series found high in the deposit of some southern lake would repeat itself closer to the bottom of a lake to the north. Additional figures used in De Geer's evaluation of the time that passed since the end of the Ice Age are of a more hypothetical nature. For the preceding period, the time allegedly needed for the ice to retreat all the way, from Leipzig to southern Sweden, where no varves are found, De Geer offered, as a surmise, a span of 4000 years____. Then he surmised further that the end of the melting of the ice cover coincided with the beginning of Neolithic time, which he placed 5000 years____ ago, thus arriving at the final figure of 14,000 years, or 12,000 years before the present era. The area of Stockholm was freed from ice about 10,000 years ago.
__[WISCONSIN GLACIATION]
_p.85. H. E. Suess of the United States Geological Survey reported recently that wood found at the base of inter-bedded blue till, peat, and outwash of drift, and ascribed by its finder to the Late Wisconsin (last) glaciation, is, according to radiocarbon analysis, but 3300 years____ old (with a margin of error up to two hundred years both ways), or of the middle of the second millennium before the present era. Still more recently Suess and Rubin reported that "a glacial advance in the mountains of westem United States was determined to have occurred about 3000 years____ ago.
__[CANADIAN STRIATIONS]
_p.86. "Another indication that the final melting of the ice sheet upon British America was separated by only a very short interval, geologically speaking, from the present time is seen in the wonderfully perfect preservation of the glacial striation and polishing on the surface of the more enduring rocks. ... It seems impossible that these rock exposures can have so well withstood weathering in the severe climate of those northern regions longer than a few thousand years____ at the most."2
__[NIAGARA FALLS]
__p.87. The date of the end of the Ice Age was not changed whenv subsequent examination of records indicated that since 1764 the falls had retreated from Lake Ontario toward Lake Erie at the rate of five feet per year, and that, if the process of wearing down the rock had gone on at the same rate from the time of the retreat of the ice cover, seven thousand years____ would have been sufficient to do the work. However, since in the beginning, when the ice melted and a swollen stream earned the detritus abrading the rock of the gorge, the erosion rate must have been much more rapid, the age of the gorge must be further reduced. According to G. F. Wright, author of The Ice Age in North America, five thousand years____ may be regarded as an adequate figure.1 The erosion and sedimentation of the shores of Lake Michigan also suggest a lapse of time reckoned in thousands, but not tens of thousands, of years____ since the beginning of the process.2
_We are obliged to fall back on the Upper Great Gorge, the uppermost segment of the whole gorge, which appears to be genuinely postglacial. Redeterminations by W. H. Boyd showed the present rate of recession of the Horseshoe Falls to be, not five feet, but rather 3.8 feet, per year. Hence the age of the Upper Great Gorge is calculated as somewhat more than four thousand years____-— and to obtain even this [low! figure we have to assume that the rate of recession has been constant, although we know that discharge has in fact varied greatly during postglacial times."4
_p.88. If we follow the principle of quantitative analysis and accept De Lapparent's figure as approximately correct, the maximal extension of the Rhone Glacier dates from a point well within the bounds of human history. The recent field work in the Alps actually revealed that numerous glaciers there are no older than 4000 years____. This startling discovery made the following statement necessary: "A large number of the present glaciers in the Alps are not survivors of the last glacial maximum, as was formerly universally believed, but are glaciers newly created within roughly the last 4000 years____.
__[MISSISSIPPI RIVER]
_As early as 1861, Humphreys and Abbot calculated the age of the Mississippi by evaluating the detritus borne by it and the sediment deposited in the delta. They arrived at the low figure of 5000 years____ as the age of the delta, its birth thus being related to about the year 2800 before the present era.1 However, when at the close of the Ice Age the ice cover melted in the north, multitudinous streams must have earned an enormous amount of detritus into the Mississippi and its tributary, the Missouri, and for* this reason the above figure, if otherwise properly calculated, must be appreciably reduced.
_p.89. The Falls of St. Anthony on this stream at Minneapolis have excavated a long gorge by removing the bedrock. In the 1870s and 1880s N. H. Winchell made this falls the subject of a study. Comparing topographical maps covering two hundred years, he concluded that the falls had retreated 2.44 feet yearly. If this was the constant rate of retreat, the falls must have started 8000 years____ ago.2 But here, too, a larger stream carrying abundant detritus, which abraded the bedrock, must have flowed when the ice cover melted. J. D. Dana, studying the area of Lake Champlain and of the Northeastern states in general, came to the conclusion that prodigious floods of almost unimaginable magnitude accompanied the melting of the ice cover: in the lower part of the Connecticut River the floods rose two hundred feet above the present high-water mark.8 And if this is true for those regions, it must be true also for the valley of the Mississippi. Consequently the gorge of the Falls of St. Anthony must be of more recent date than ^Winchell calculated, though even his figure was regarded as much too low.
_On the basis of three earlier accurate surveys {of the Bear River in Canada} made between the years 1909 and 1927, G. Hanson in 1934 calculated with great exactness the annual growth of the delta through deposited sediment. At the present rate of sedimentation the delta is estimated to be only 3600 years____ old."
__[FLORIDA FOSSILS]
_p.91. The Sierra Nevada chain rises between the Great Basin to the east and the Pacific, cutting off the drainage to the ocean. Abert and Summer lakes in southern Oregon have no outlets. They are regarded as remnants of a once large glacial lake, Chewaucan. W. van Winkle of the United States Geological Survey investigated the saline content of these two lakes and wrote: "A conservative estimate of the age of Summer and Abert Lakes, based on their concentration and area, the composition of the influent waters, and the rate of evaporation, is 4000 years____."
_To the east of Sequoia National Park and Mount Whitney in California lies Owens Lake. It is supplied by the Owens River and it has no outlet. At some time in the past the surface level of the lake, because of a greater water supply, was so much higher that it overflowed its basin. H. S. Gale analyzed the water of the lake and of the river for chlorine and sodium and came to the conclusion that the river required 4200 years____ to supply the chlorine present in the lake and 3500 years____ to supply its sodium.
_Lahontan and its residual lakes were explored anew by J. Claude Jones, and the results of his work were published as "Geological History of Lake Lahontan" by the Carnegie Institution of Washington.4 He investigated the saline content of Pyramid and Winnemucca lakes and of the Truckee River that feeds them. He found that the river could have supplied the entire content of chlorine of these two lakes in 3881 years____. "A similar calculation, using sodium instead of chlorine, gave 2447 years____ necessary."
__[TREE RINGS]
_p.93. The oldest trees that started life about 3200 years____ ago offer insight into the influence on their growth, as caused by a series of later climatic disturbances on the global scale that, according to the pollen analysis, took place in the eighth and the beginning of the seventh centuries, or 2700 years____ ago.
_The Carnegie Institution published in 1919 a graph drawn by A. E. Douglass, then director of Steward Observatory, who studied tree rings in order to discover the solar activity of the past.1 The graph actually reveals a spurt of oscillations in the annual growth of the tree rings around the year —747 (the identification of the rings as to their years is approximate). There is an unusually high crest in the last years of the eighth century and the beginning of the seventh century. After a record high crest of six-year duration there is in —687 a precipitate drop.
__[SEA LEVEL CHANGE]
_According to Daly, "This increase of the ice-cap or caps has been tentatively referred to late-Neolithic time, about 3500 years____ ago. At that approximate date there was some chilling of the northern hemisphere at least, following a prolonged period when the world climate was distinctly warmer than now. Late-Neolithic man lived in Europe 3500 years____ back." As to the date of the sudden drop of oceanic level, Kuenen writes: "The time of the movement was estimated by Daly to be probably some 3000 to 4000 years____ ago. Detailed field work in the Netherlands and in eastern England has shown a recent eustatic depression of the same order of magnitude as deduced by Daly. Here the time can be fixed as roughly 3000 to 3500 years____ ago." Thus the work in the Netherlands and in England confirmed not only Daly's finding but also his dating.
_p.99. Thus, according to Godwin's analysis, in the period between 2000 and 500 before the present era, the plain north of Cambridge was more than once invaded by the North Sea under circumstances that we would interpret as catastrophic. In many places all around England and Wales there are submerged forests which are dated as "probably PostGlacial or Recent."
__[THERA VOLCANO ERUPTION]
_p.101. At that time villages were buried by lava, pumice, and ashes; the excavated cultural remains showed that the great explosion took place "between 1800 and 1500 B.C.," or at the end of the Middle Kingdom in Egypt. The erupted masses were so vast that a German scholar offered in recent years a theory according to which the Egyptian plague of darkness was caused by the eruption of the Thera volcano, six hundred miles northwest of the Delta.
__[CHANGE IN NILE FLOW]
_"We obtained the remarkable result that about 4000 years____ ago the Nile used to rise at that point, on an average, twenty-two feet higher than it does at present." This dropping of the high-water level must be ascribed either to a change in the quantity of water in the Nile or to a change in the rock structure of Egypt. However, if the Nile contained so much more water in the past, many residences and temples would have been regularly inundated. I omit the references to cities swallowed by the ground in Egyptian literature; yet the enigmatic and rather regular signs of fire in graves of the Old and Middle Kingdoms, as if from the presence of some volatile substance that penetrated there and became inflamed by the heated ground, is worth mentioning.
__[ALPS GLACIER]
_p.105. The Rhone Glacier in the Alps started to melt 2400 years____ ago, in the middle of the first millennium. This calculation of De Lapparent coincides with that at which we arrived by dating the last catastrophe in —687. In this catastrophe many older glaciers melted, and the subsequent increased evaporation and precipitation built other glaciers that before long also started to melt, a process that has been going on ever since. Many glaciers of the Alps, it was recently learned with surprise, are less than 4000 years____ old (Flint).
__[FLORIDA FOSSILS]
_p.106. The Florida fossil beds at Vero and Melbourne proved - by the artifacts found there together with human bones and the remains of animals, many of which are extinct - that these fossil beds were deposited between 2000 and 4000 years____ ago.
_From observations on beaches in numerous places all over the world, Daly concluded that there was a change in the ocean level, which dropped sixteen to twenty feet 3500 years____ ago; KLuenen and others confirmed Daly's findings with evidence derived from Europe.
__[SOUTHWEST LAKE & TAR PITS]
_p.108. According to [Claude Jones's] analysis of the salt accumulation in the residual lakes of the larger Lake Lahontan, this glacial lake came into existence only 3500 years____ ago, and the fauna found in it deposit could not be older. This compelled further vacillations. J. R. Schultz, writing on the fauna of the tar seeps in California, says that in view of the established correlation of the fauna of La Brea and the fauna of Lake Lahontan it is now possible "to reconcile the veterbrate evidence" even with the opinion of Jones "as to the relatively late age of the lake." Would this really signify that the extinct animals of the asphalt pits are only 3000 or 4000 years____ old?
__[RECAP]
_p.140. Professor R. Daly of Harvard University found that 3500 years____ ago all over the world the level of the oceans suddenly dropped. He thought it might be due to a sudden sinking of the crust. And in an authoritative work, Marine Geology (1950), Professor P. H. Kuenen of the Netherlands finds that "this recent shift is now well established" on observations in many places of the world, and he, too, assigns this catastrophic drop of the ocean level to 3500 years____ ago.
_The investigation of the delta formation of the Bear River (on the Alaskan border), very carefully made by Hanson, showed that "at the present rate of sedimentation the delta is estimated to be only 3600 years____ old." A. de Lapparent, the leading French geologist of the beginning of the century, calculated that, since the time the Rhone glacier started to melt, less than 3000 years____ have passed. Modern research confirms that many of the alpine glaciers are less than 4000 years____ old. Professor Flint of Yale refers to the redetermination of the age of the Upper Great Gorge of Niagara Falls and writes (1947): "The age of the Upper Great Gorge is calculated as somewhat more than four thousand years____— and to obtain even this [low] figure we have to assume that the rate of recession has been constant, although we know that discharge has in fact varied greatly during postglacial times." 7
__[LABRADOR CRATER]
_p.141. A circular meteoric crater (Chubb crater) was discovered in the summer of 1950 in northern Labrador; it covers an area of four square miles. It is much larger than the Arizona crater, which is four fifths of a mile in diameter (two thirds of a square mile in area); whereas the Arizona crater could accommodate two million people in its amphitheater, the Chubb crater could accommodate twelve million people. It must have been created by the impact of an asteroid. According to the published opinion of geological authorities, the asteroid must have fallen about four thousand years____ ago.
__[ASTEROIDS & COMETS]
_p.142. The origin of asteroids, or small planets, that circle between Jupiter and Mars, some of which cross the orbit of Mars and even that of the earth, has lately been explained as the result of the explosion of a planet and more recently (1950) as the result of a collision between two planets in an early age (Kuiper).
_F. Whipple, upon calculating the orbits of the asteroids, came to the conclusion (1950) that two collisions occurred between these bodies and a comet, once 4700 years____ ago and the second time 1500 years____ ago, or within historical times.
_p.143. Professor S. K. Vsehsviatsky. His research reveals that periodic comets, as observed during recent decades, are losing their luminosity and their matter at a rate so rapid that fifty or sixty revolutions suffice to disintegrate a comet completely. Thus the Halley comet can hardly go back beyond 3500 years____, or the year 1500 before the present era.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:44 am

214317

I just posted MEGATSUNAMIS: 1.5 Mile High Tidal Surges during the Great Flood at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... gatsunamis
I now have the following chapters posted at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... t/69259152 or https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substack.com/archive
1..4 PROOF SEDIMENTARY ROCK IS NOT OLD
2..26 DATING METHODS
3..3 GREAT FLOOD
4..1 EARTH & MOON IMPACTS
5..2 MEGATSUNAMIS
25..-1 SATURN THEORY

It also shows the chapter titles I have planned.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:19 pm

214518

MOON IN UPHEAVAL

The Moon In Upheaval
_From: The Velikovskian Vol 1 No 1 (1993) Charles Ginenthal.

I'm reading that article now. It's very long and has a lot of data to digest and reorganize. I'm trying to determine if it's saying that few craters were produced by impacts. It seems to suggest that many lunar features are due to tidal forces from Venus. If few craters on the Moon are due to impacts, then the same may be true on Earth, although the Moon may have been away from Earth initially. I hope to have some good info to share by tomorrow.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:46 pm

214555

EVIDENCE OF ANCIENT UPHEAVAL OF THE MOON

The following are excerpts from Ginenthal's long article. He concluded that impacts have been rare on the Moon and that tidal forces produced most of the lunar features. His evidence is good, but I don't know how thorough it was. I don't know if the main evidence, such as thermoluminescence, applies to the whole Moon, or just to the near side. It looks to me like impacts have had a major effect on the far side, but maybe I'll get time to see if I can find info on that before long. The layering doesn't seem to be very strong evidence, because this site, https://www.hou.usra.edu/meetings/leag2 ... lescia.pdf , says: "Regolith Stratigraphy. Upper regolith composed of numerous, variable layers. Layering is highly localized and individual layers can not be traced for significant distances." But we need to see the big picture and I think the article below will help with that quite a bit. Quite a bit of the info surprises me.

The Moon In Upheaval
__From: The Velikovskian Vol 1 No 1 (1993) Charles Ginenthal.

__{LUNAR TIDAL DISTORTION}
_I will ... show that the accepted view, indicating that the lunar craters are caused by impact events, is contradicted by nearly all fundamental evidence, and that tidal distortion and bubbling of the surface is the only concept concordant with the evidence._
__{VELIKOVSKY'S VIEW}
_Velikovsky claimed that the Moon was repeatedly involved in cosmic catastrophes: Together with the terrestrial globe it passed through the fabric of the great [protoplanet Venus] comet of the time of Exodus, and in the conflicts of the eighth century before the present era, the Moon was more than once displaced from its orbit by Mars. During these catastrophes the Moon's surface flowed with lava and bubbled into great circular formations, which rapidly cooled off in the long lunar night, unprotected by [the] atmosphere from the coolness of cosmic spaces. In the cosmic collisions or near contacts the surface of the Moon was also marked by clefts and rifts.(3) A very clear picture of what would happen to the Moon if it had a close tidal interaction with an Earth-sized body was presented in 1966 by V. A. Firsoff, who, like Velikovsky, maintains that the Moon was acquired recently by a gravitational capture mechanism into its present orbit._
__{FIRSOFF'S SOMEWHAT SIMILAR VIEW}
_Firsoff suggests that the mass of the body nearing the Moon caused powerful body tides [that] must have greatly disturbed the conditions inside the Moon. The rock would be split into blocks to great depth, and these blocks would grind against each other as the Moon turned round. The resultant friction would generate great heat, which could be sufficient, and certainly turn water to steam. The liquids, whether magma or water, ice and soft deformable rock, such as salt, would alternately rise to the surface and recede exerting great pressures on the overlying layers and partly breaking through. This would give rise to volcanoes. Part of the surface would heave up "blisters" [that] would cave in as the pressure from within was withdrawn leaving behind huge walled depressions - craters, in fact.(4) With respect to the time of the last interaction of the Moon with a large body, Firsoff reviews and concurs with J. E. Spurr's findings that the face of the Moon shows two systems of great surface fractures, or faults, lying about [30 {degrees}] from the two poles and trending from west-south-west to east-north-east ... as a result of the halting of the Moon's rotation during which the north pole shifted south while the outer crust was wrenched to the east and then swung back. Curiously the Earth, too, shows a similar structure with the same general trend.... The poles of the Earth would also seem to have shifted place on at least three occasions;_
__{TIDAL DISTORTION BRECCIA}
_The crust rose in a huge dome and then foundered, producing Mare Imbrium.... ... Based on Velikovsky's tidal distortion theory, the entire subsurface of the Moon, to great depth, was lifted, bubbled at the surface and subsided or collapsed. ... Thomas Gold tells us that the seismic signals clearly preclude any largely continuous rock sheet being present at a small [lunar] depth.... ... The seismology would be satisfied only with a subsurface of a coarsely or finely broken up rock; but the radar denies the presence of any structure course on the scale of meters. The combined evidence is for a deep soil, generally layered, with compaction increasing with depth but with only gentle transitions in density, or generally smooth interfaces where a sudden change of density does occur.(7) The rock on the Moon is broken into finely ground particles at the surface; as we go deeper into the subsurface, the particles grow gradually larger and larger, so that there is no evidence anywhere on the Moon to suggest that at one depth is solid bedrock above which there is finely broken rock. The seismic signal shows only smooth transitions with depth. What would generate such a smooth gradation of rock-sized particles with depth over the entire Moon? Impacts would be expected to fuse rock or melt it at certain near-surface depths to create regions with large rocks here and there below the surface, or rocks raised to the surface. According to Gold, there is not one place on the Moon that shows sudden changes between regolith and bedrock. But, if the Moon bubbled, then this deep subsurface force would move to the surface, evenly breaking up the rock through which the force passed._
__{TIDAL MASCONS}
_Related to a tidal disturbance would be evidence that a massive body moved in an orbit past the Moon leaving surface and subsurface phenomena along great circle arcs. R. J. Mulcuit describes this phenomenon. "The circular maria - Orientale, Imbrium, Serenitiatis, Crisium, Smythii, and Tsiolkovsky - lie nearly on a great circle. This pattern can be considered the result of a very close non-capture encounter between the Moon and the Earth.... ... According to Velikovsky, the passing protoplanet Venus pulled mass toward the surface on the side of the Moon nearest Venus. Michael Zeilik states: "The fact that almost all maria have associated mascons implies that some common process produced large amounts of dense material under the maria."(9) This clearly implies a link to a passing body. Since the large maria are found along a great circle arc, the mascons are also found along the same arc. This is explicable only in terms of a tidal distortion._
_Meteorite mascons would {not} remain in regions of great heat. Even if the heat did not melt them completely, the difference in density between the highly dense meteorite mascons and the hot, low dense, surrounding magma of the ancient times would cause the mascons to sink deeper into even hotter subsurface regions (the deeper below the surface one goes, the higher the temperature becomes), where the masses would melt or sink to even hotter, deeper levels. Under these conditions, the mascons would never survive._
_It is difficult to believe that meteorites only hit the maria in a great circle arc. Thomas A. Hockey said: "Early theories said that they [mascons] represented metallic asteroid-sized bodies lying under the maria. However, such bodies would have had to be traveling unreasonably slowly when they implanted themselves in order to remain intact."(12) ... All the evidence suggests the mascons were formed recently by a tidal distortion. The tidal distortion hypothesis is the only one that is congruent with the evidence. The most powerful piece of evidence pointing to a recent tidal distortion is the fact that the Moon possesses a major hemispherical dichotomy, a bulge, a distortion on one side of its figure. Measurements have shown that the hemisphere facing the Earth contains a bulge measuring 2 kilometers more or less. Such a vast hemispheric distortion of the shape of the Moon is clearly explicable from only two points of view._
__{LUNAR BULGE & MOONQUAKES AT MARIA}
_Harold C. Urey {said} Astronomical data indicate that the Moon has a triaxial configuration with ellipticities quite different from those expected from the effects of tides [from Earth]. Hence, we may conclude that the Moon has indeed an irregular shape. This ellipticity [bulge] is some seventeen times as great as would be calculated from present tidal forces.... ... What Urey means is that the lunar bulge cannot be many millions of years old, otherwise the bulge would be removed by isostatic forces. ... A recent tidal distortion of the Moon's shape is the only logical and plausible cause for such a bulge._
_Describing these moonquake epicenters, Bevan M. French says: In addition to being deep (about 600 to 800 kilometers below the surface), most moonquakes are also localized; that is, they occur again and again at specific places on the Moon. At present 40 such "centers" of moonquake activity have been identified, all but one on the nearside of the Moon. With only a few exceptions, they lie along two great belts that are 100 and 300 kilometers wide and run about 2,000 kilometers across the Moon."(24) ... Describing seismic sounding of the Moon, Lunan states that "far more important was the absence of shear waves passing through the heart of the Moon [since] data indicates that the Moon has a [molten] liquid core 965 [kilometers] down extending 772 [kilometers] from the center."(26) ... Such discontinuities, at such depths, can only exist if they were generated recently. ... This gives the Moon a molten core that is about 1,544 kilometers (957 miles) in diameter. This is known because shear waves will not pass through liquid and the seismometers on the Moon showed shear waves will not pass through the lunar core._
__{LUNAR HEAT}
_An enormous problem facing mascon survival for billions of years is related to the Moon's high thermal gradient. ... According to Wernher von Braun and Frederick I. Ordway, "... scientists have estimated an internal [lunar] temperature of about 2,730 F. (1,773K.) at a depth of 625 miles (1,000 kilometers)."(16) ... Per unit volume, the Moon's core generates a third more heat to the entire Moon than the Earth's core does to the entire Earth. The smaller the body, the more rapidly it must cool and lose its primordial heat. ... This evidence strongly suggests that the lunar core was made molten only recently, evidence that would be completely congruent with a recent, massive tidal distortion. ... The Earth's crust is on average 70 kilometers, or 43 miles, thick, while the Earth's mantle is 2,900 kilometers (1,800 miles) thick. (34) The Moon's crust is 60 kilometers (37 miles) thick, while its mantle is 1,040 kilometers (645 miles) thick. (35) ... Crust thickness and mantle thickness are determined by the amount of heat they receive from the core; the greater the amount of heat received over time, the thinner they must be. ... The only way understood to produce these contradictory phenomena, namely, greater lunar heat than Earth's, per unit volume, with a thick crust and mantle, is by recent catastrophism. Only a recent catastrophe will create a large molten core in a world that, by uniformitarian cooling processes, ought to be frozen solid, and the only catastrophe congruent with all the other evidence is a tidal distortion. ... These areas {maria} should also be the sites for high thermal subsurface emissions. And this is precisely the case._
__THE ORIGIN AND NATURE OF LUNAR CRATERS.
_The bubbling theory is much closer to the volcanic hypothesis, except that the causative agent for crater production is a tidal distortion for gas release while for vulcanism the agent is heat release via magmatic upwelling. ... It is, by and large, accepted by geophysicists that lines of craters are derived by volcanic processes. Velikovsky's tidal distortion hypothesis requires that craters found on the Moon exhibit a distinct hemispheric dichotomy like that found for the lunar bulge, maria, mascons and deep-focus moonquakes. It further requires that the weaknesses in the lunar crust, created by a changing of the Moon's rotation, should also show linearly distributed craters generally running along lines of weakness along meridians to the Moon's rotational poles._
_Although there are similar basins on the farside, they are apparently not filled with mare basalt. Laser altimeter data suggest that this may be a result of the greater thickness of the low density crust on the farside.... ... There are approximately 30 maria, of which some ten are extraordinarily large, with nothing comparable to these ten great lava-filled basins on the lunar farside. ... There is some lava on the lunar farside, but it is tiny by comparison with the nearside._
_Double craters, which are a common phenomenon of the lunar surface, should exhibit both types of double craters randomly. The fact of the matter regarding this more localized distribution phenomenon is that, as a rule, double craters are observed to show that the smaller crater is always the intruder on the larger one._
__{LINEAMENTS}
_Based on Velikovsky's hypothesis, the tidal interaction between protoplanet Venus and the Moon changed the Moon's rotation. This change in rotation would lead to linear formations running longitudinally north and south on the Moon. According to Alan B. Binder and Donald W. McCarthy, the Moon's surface shows, like the planet Mars, preferential trends in its lineaments, "such as polygonal crater walls, linear rilles, linear ridges, linear albedo boundaries and linear scarps.... [The authors add that] this system of fractures might be the consequences of changes in the planet's rate of rotation, polar wandering, or other stresses." (42) ... If stresses on the Moon are related to changes in rotation caused by a tidal disturbance, one would also expect to find that many crater chains would have a strong tendency to {run?} ... along longitudinal arcs and exhibit North-South directional trends. ... No such chains extend from east to west and it seems then that we are dealing with formations which were born along lines of weakness in the Moon's crust [and] the lining up of the chains with the central [North-South one] can hardly be due to chance. (43) ... Although it is argued that the Earth's tidal pull is responsible for such North-South chains of craters, it is also probable that weaknesses in the lunar crust were caused by a stronger influence than that of the Earth's gravitational field..... ... As Binder and McCarthy stated above, the lineament systems on the Moon suggest more violent changes.... ... The very same dichotomy and double craters, as well as crater chains, are also found on Mercury._
___{{{The Moon may have been close to Earth at one time, maybe on an elliptical orbit that caused the Great Flood.}}}
__{SIMILARITY TO IO CRATERS}
_Velikovsky's tidal distortion hypothesis requires bubbles of gas to well up, escape to space and then collapse to form craters. ... The difference between the bubble theory and the volcanic theory, as stated earlier, is that vulcanism is driven mainly by upwelling of lava with some gas, while, for the bubble theory, upwelling is mostly gaseous with some upwelling of lava. Io, the Galilean satellite of Jupiter, subjected to ongoing tidal stresses, produces craters up to 200 kilometers in diameter. (46) All the craters, both large and small, are the product of tidal stresses and look like craters on the Moon. What is outstandingly important is the fact that Io, like the Moon, is also asymmetrically volcanic; that is, it has much more volcanic activity on one hemisphere than on the other. ... On the Moon, a much more solid body than Io, the strength of the crust would demand greater pressures to build up before release and, therefore, it is probable that these greater pressures under the lunar surface created - in many instances - craters of far larger dimensions than those generated on Io. Therefore, the contention that large craters cannot be produced by tidal stress is simply false._
_Neville L. Carter analyzed the volcanic ejecta from Toba volcano in Sumatra and discovered that some of the material was shocked so powerfully that it showed, "strong dynamic deformation [which] has resulted in intense kinking [bending of rock] in bistite and, with increasing shock intensity, the development in plagioclase of planar features [layers in unlayered rock material] shock mosaicism [mosaics of rock fused together], incipient recrystallization [crystals were semi-developed] and possible partial melting." (48)_
_Observations of Io have shown that tidally-induced volcanic explosions will eject matter, at Io's surface, upward at a velocity of 1 kilometer - 3,000 feet - per second. ... Michael Zeilik informs us that, "Io's volcanoes eject plumes of gas ... and dust up to heights of 250 [kilometers] at velocities of 1,000 m/s [meters per second].... In contrast, the Earth's large volcanoes spit out material at about 50 m/s...." (50)_
_According to Thomas A. Mutch, the underground nuclear test carried out at Sedan, Nevada, produced an explosive upheaval of the surface rock that rose like a bubble and then subsided, creating a crater 600 feet in diameter from rim to rim. The significant aspects of this experiment as they relate to our study are that breccia was formed inside the crater, the bedrock was overturned and blanket ejecta was thrown around the crater. (51) In essence, the same phenomena associated with lunar craters had been generated. The force of the underground explosion produced a crater 600 feet in diameter; the forces of the underground explosions on Io produce craters up to 200 kilometers (124 miles) in diameter. ... At Sedan, Nevada, ejecta blankets were produced similar to those on the Moon, which supports the bubbling concept by tidal distortion. ... Bubble explosions are also of a volcanic nature, as can be observed on domes on the Moon with central crater pits, which fits the depth-diameter ratio._
__{TIDAL DISTORTION VS IMPACTS}
_"The widespread production of breccias, shock-metamorphosed material and impact melted glasses." (58) {are thought to be evidence of impacts.} In reply: Breccia was produced at Sedan. Shocked rock at Toba. On Io, the force exerted at the surface is immensely greater than that at Sedan or at Toba volcano and, therefore, production of these materials is well expected as well as melted glass. In essence, all the phenomena associated with lunar craters have been produced at Sedan, Toba volcano or Io. Also of importance is the fact that nearly all the material at Sedan fell back upon the original bedrock surface from which it came. Bevan M. French reports: "The solid bedrock at the Apollo 11 landing site is covered by a layer of `lunar soil' a few meters thick composed of broken and melted rock fragments. Nearly all are basalt fragments from the bedrock underneath." (59)_
_Donald Goldsmith explains that an impact produces a crater "five to ten times the object's diameter and would eject a vast quantity of matter upward and horizontally [plus] most of the material ejected by the impact would be dust and grit." (60) ... The composition of the regolith closely resembles that of the local underlying bedrock. Some exotic components are always present, perhaps arriving as debris flung from a large distant impact. But this is the exception rather than the rule. The contacts between mare and highland units appear sharp from lunar orbit, which suggest that relatively little material has been transported laterally. (62) ... I will present indisputable evidence that the soil is not well mixed and was never transported as debris across the lunar surface. I will also show that impacts have been extraordinarily rare events._
_One would expect to discover large amounts of meteoric materials in the lunar soil, but this is far from the case. French explains that there is only "1% to 2% of meteoric material [that] has been mixed with the ground-up lunar rock." (63) ... I point to Meteor Crater in Arizona, where according to Mutch, "Many large fragments from a nickel-iron meteorite have been discovered from the surface around the crater, as well as from depth in the crater." (64) Virgilio Brenna declares: "Almost [15] tons of meteoric fragments were collected from the crater and near vicinity." (65)_
__BUBBLING VULCANISM.
_Signals from the Apollo 12 seismometers have been analyzed at ... [NASA's] Manned Spacecraft Center showing the presence of moonquakes at the time the Moon's red glow is evident. Both events occur when the Moon is at perigee.... ... {A} theory is that the tidal forces cause the Moon to `pop', creating a moonquake and allowing gases trapped beneath the lunar surface to escape. These gases may be the orange-red glow which astronomers have watched for centuries. (68)_
_Comparison of the distribution (non-random) of the L.T.P. [lunar transient phenomena] sites, dark craters, ... shows strong affinities for the mare edges ... implying internal activity (probably degassing) as the source of most L.T.P.... Considering everything the data shows, the author is skeptical that there are any decisive external (even tidal) influences on this internal activity released at L.T.P. sites. (71)_
__{GASES}
_Firsoff also remarked on the following degassing observation that, on 3rd November 1958 the Russian astronomer N. A. Kozyrev not only observed visually an emission of gas within the walled ... [crater] of Alphonsus but secured a photograph of its spectrum (spectrogram) as corroborative evidence. Oddly enough the gas appears to have been laden with molecules of carbon - it was in fact very fine smoke. (74)_
_As Apollo 15 passed [70] miles above Aristarchus, there was a significant rise in the number of alpha particles emitted by radon-222.... Particles associated with decay of the other main kind of radon-220 were not found, and this showed that the effect was not due merely to a local excess on the surface of uranium and thorium. The radon isotopes must have diffused through the regolith from below. ... The emanations are just like those found on Earth at sites of volcanoes!_
__{WATER VAPOR}
_A subsurface Apollo 16 soil ... is much richer in volatile compounds than soils from any other locations or sites as shown by thermal analysis - gas release measurements. A weight loss of 0.03[%] during the interval of 175[ ] to 350[ ] was associated with the release of water, carbon dioxide, methane, hydrogen cyanide, hydrogen, and minor amounts of hydrocarbons and other species. (79) ... Like the findings of carbon gas and water vapor emissions that were observed, as well as those of water-bearing minerals, it is also probable that the volatile rich minerals found in the lunar regolith were outgassed from beneath the surface. ... This lingering volcanic activity on the Moon is exactly what is to be expected, based on Velikovsky's hypothesis._
__{DOMES}
_A most important feature commonly found over the Moon's surface, as Short mentioned, are the over 400 lunar domes. Based on the tidal distortion, bubbling-volcanic concept, domes are the remains of solid uplifted bubbles that have not collapsed. Some of these domes, miles in diameter, also exhibit central crater pits. ... As their name suggests, they were produced by some internal force which pushed up the Moon's crust without being able to break it.... ... Lunar domes are not very large, compared to most of the higher mountains that are found on the Moon. ... Crater pits are low, caldera-like depressions centered on the top of domes. They are not very deep and thus would not survive the type of erosion described next. ... On Luna the surface has {been} acted upon only by erosion of the temperature cycle of lunar night and day, the action of solar wind and impacts of meteorites. ... The fact that crater pits exist at all is a contradiction of the evidence from erosion. The fact that they exist indicates that they formed more recently_
__{RHEOLOGY}
_Using the equations of rheology, the lunar craters should be flattened by gravity in less than a million years if the viscosity of similar terrestrial rock (basalt) [is] used. ... What should be obvious from this evidence is that, taken together, erosion and rheology would not only remove all the crater pits of lunar domes, but the domes as well. ... The lunar lava flows should be completely flattened. That implies that micrometeorite erosion would lower the flows and the detritus would gravitationally fill the valleys between the flows. The heat at the surface would cause flow leveling more rapidly since solar heat causes more rapid flow of rock. {Since they are not flattened,} this suggests that flows are recent
__THE LUNAR REGOLITH
__{LAYERING, NOT FROM IMPACTS?}

_French informs us, contrary to Strahler, that cross-sections of the soil were collected by driving a hollow tube vertically into the soil. When the tube was pulled out it contained a core of lunar soil 2 centimeters in diameter and usually 10 to 20 centimeters [2.5 to 5 inches] long. The first cores returned by the Apollo 11 were 10 centimeters and 13.5 centimeters [2.5 to 5.5 inches] long. They seemed well-mixed and homogenous, suggesting that the mixing process in the lunar soil [was] effective to at least these depths. But the two Apollo 12 cores told a much different story. They had penetrated to depths of 19.3 and 41.3 centimeters [7.75 and 16.5 inches] and the longer core contained at least ten recognizable layers with different colors, particle sizes, and compositions. Most of the layers were composed of material identified as reworked soil, but a few contained particles of bedrock.... Still more impressive layering was found in the long core (242 centimeters) [8 feet] returned from the Apollo 15 landing site at Hadley Rille. The core contained at least 42 distinct layers ranging in thickness from a few centimeters to 13 centimeters. Well-layered cores were also returned by the Apollo 16 crew from the highlands near Descartes. The cores from the later Apollo missions demonstrate that layering is preserved in the lunar soil and that the mixing of the soil by small impacts does not occur rapidly at depths greater than a few centimeters. (90)_
_Thomas Gold also analyzed this layering phenomenon and stated that "most of the core tubes investigated show many very distinctive layers with differences of grain size, albedo [light reflective capacity of materials] and chemical composition. However these layers might be produced, their presence argues against the supposition that the soil has generally been stirred." (92)_
_In conjunction, layered soil derived from its bedrock, described earlier, and almost devoid of meteoric material, supports Velikovsky's concept. In a bubbling, volcanic tidal event, lava would flow across the Moon's surface to cover it. But the bubbling uplift and subsidence would last for weeks to months before the interior of the Moon quieted its rumbling. This uplift and subsidence would break the over-covering lava in place, so that the layers would survive intact. Only the top few inches would become jumbled and mixed, because only these particles could move about. The layers beneath the surface are surrounded by other particles and have very little room to move laterally or vertically. These subsurface, deeper particles, therefore, remain in relatively the same stratum._
__{MICROCRATERS}
_Gold further explains: The lunar soil shows generally a remarkably high surface exposure, as judged by its cosmic ray tracks, by its implanted gases.... ... If random stirring were held responsible for bringing grains to the surface for exposure, then even the most vigorous stirring would still give a larger proportion of unexposed grains than is found. ... However, the regolith appears to be unstirred because there are very few clear rocks without cosmic ray tracks in the lunar soil. That is, since these rays are random, the soil seems to have the number of clear rocks one would expect if these rocks were missed by cosmic rays from an unstirred regolith. A highly stirred soil would show a much larger percentage of clear rocks. At this point, there are two levels of evidence that show the lunar soil was not mixed, viz, layers and cosmic ray tracks._
_If Velikovsky's concept is correct, then these rocks should show a very recent influx of micrometeorites caused by protoplanet Venus' tail materials carried in its train and left in space. French gives us this surprising information: The exposed surface of a lunar rock is a natural particle counter. The tiny, fast moving particles of cosmic dust that strike the rock produce tiny glass-lined microcraters. ... Scientists who made a complete study of the microcraters on a large Apollo 16 sample (60015) ... were able to date the formation ages of single microcraters by studying the solar flare particle tracks preserved in the glass linings of each crater. The rock had been exposed on the lunar surface for about 80,000 years, but the data indicates that more microcraters had formed during the last 10,000 years than in the earlier stages of the rock's exposure._
__{THERMOLUMINESCENCE}
_Gold has indicated: "The lunar soils shows generally a remarkable high surface exposure as judged by its ... implanted gases." (99) ... thermoluminescence ... tests were carried out by R. M. Walker of Washington University, St. Louis, as reported in KRONOS (Winter 1977): 37-38. However, the cores were from only 6-inch soil depths and not 3-feet depths as Velikovsky suggested. ... The shallow core sample test by Walker showed that the Moon had been molten less than 10,000 years ago_
_Velikovsky's hypothesis stipulates that the Moon experienced a tidal distortion and, therefore was heated from below. As the rock particles cooled, they also retained their heat longer the deeper into the Moon one goes. ... A second outcome of Velikovsky's thesis requires that, instead of having the youngest thermoluminescence age rock at the top layers, the age will also decrease with depth. The reason for this is that hot rock particles must cool below a certain temperature to set their thermoluminescence age to zero. Based on Velikovsky's hypothesis, the Moon cooled its particles at the surface first, then more slowly with depth._
_G. F. J. Garlick and I. Robinson, who report that "... thermoluminescence studies of lunar samples found both for Apollo 11 and 12 core samples [show] that the residual thermoluminescence increases with depth of core sample below the lunar surface..." (101) ... Luna-24, an unmanned Soviet spacecraft that returned cores from the Moon. These cores were tested for thermoluminescence by B. D. Bhasin and C. M. Sunta in India. They state that "the relative age should increase with depth but the computation [of thermoluminescence of the core samples] show reverse of it." (102) (Emphasis added.) Instead of finding a mixed regolith, or one in which materials show greater age with depth, just as Oberg and Walker's concept demands, just the opposite was found in the lunar core. Shocked beyond belief, Bhasin and Sunta declare, "Such a situation is impossible." (103)_
_the fact that the volcanic rock materials in the lunar soil are organized by thermoluminescence, by layers and by cosmic ray tracks could only be produced by one immense melting of the Moon, according to McCall, who then adds that "this fact rules out the possibility of lunar basalts being simply localized [sic] products of impact-induced secondary melting." (105) ... Based on three levels of evidence - layering in the lunar regolith, cosmic ray tracks in the lunar soil and thermoluminescence becoming greater and younger with depth - all deny the Moon was bombarded again and again throughout its history. This evidence also emphatically denies the localized periodic volcanic theory. No localized volcanic theory will account for this uniformity over the entire Moon._
__{METEORIC DUST}
_Petterson reckoned that 14 million tons of meteoric dust settled on the Earth's surface each year.... ... Over nearly five billion years, this would add up, if undisturbed, to a layer of fifty-four feet deep {16.5 m} over the entire surface of the Earth. [See Isaac Asimov in Science Digest, Jan. 1959] {In 5 million years it would amount to 1.65 cm. Since such accumulation isn't found, the dust hasn't been falling very long.}_
__{RADIOACTIVITY}
_Allen Hammond states: The region around the Imbrium basin ... appears to have some unusual features. Observation of the gamma rays given off by radioactive materials showed much higher concentrations of uranium, thorium and potassium in Mare Imbrium and in the neighboring lava flows of Oceanus Procellarum than elsewhere on the Moon. [These are the largest maria on the Moon and would, therefore, contain the deepest radioactive materials in their surface lavas.]_
__{MAGNETISM: SOMETHING MAGNETIZED THE MOON}
_Neither the magnetic field associated with the solar nebula nor the dipole magnetic field of the Earth, according to S.K. Runcorn ... could have magnetized the Moon's crust because of the orientation of the field in the solar wind and the length of period during which the Moon would have to be very close to the Earth. (110) ... According to Cadogen, "rocks of the lunar crust have been magnetized externally rather than internally." (111) (Emphasis added.) In order for this to occur, a body had to come close enough to the Moon to melt its rocks and at the same time immerse the Moon in a strong magnetic field. This indeed is the concept proposed by Velikovsky._
_Zdenek Kopal, in complete contradiction to Oberg, informs us: With the arrival in the lunar environment of the surface and sub-satellite magnometers of the successive Apollo missions, many new facts on lunar magnetism came to light. The sub-satellite of the Apollo 15-17 missions orbited at altitudes substantially lower than that of Explorer 35 and detected local magnetic fluctuations between 20 and 30 gammas. These fluctuations turned out to be correlated with specific formations (craters) on the lunar surface overflown by the magnometer. The carriers of this field are brecciated rocks produced by impacts. At any rate, the origin of this field which fluctuates with topography can only be skin deep and has nothing to do with the deep interior. The same is not true of the remanent magnetism of lunar crystalline rocks which are found deeper below the surface. (116) (Emphasis added.) Kopal tells us that there are two kinds of magnetism of the Moon. One field is splotchy and at the surface - the one described by Oberg. The other field is related to the deeper interior where "remanent magnetism in lunar crystalline rocks" are located. Kopal also tells us the surface magnetic field has nothing to do with the field in the deeper interior. That difference has to do with crystalline rock. And there is excellent reason for this difference. Crystals form slowly in rocks and iron atoms in these crystals were also incorporated into them slowly. The Britannica states, "Many factors influence the ability of a magma to crystallize, but the length of time during which cooling occurs is the controlling factor." (117) Tiny crystals can form in a few hours to a few days. Crystals do not form in a few seconds by impacts that align their magnetic components. Kopal further explains that "the magnetism of these [lunar rocks] is stable and suggests a prevalence of much stronger fields (100-1,000 gammas) at the time of solidification." (118) An impact can melt rock but cannot create a magnetic field for longer than a few seconds. To imprint magnetism in crystals in rock takes from hours, at the very least, to a few days._
_And magnetic measurements at different altitudes imply that crystal magnetism may in places be coherent down to depths of at least several thousand feet. Only a global magnetic field ... could possibly account for this coherence. (119) (Emphasis added.) As one can see, the concept suggested by Velikovsky fully agrees with the evidence regarding remanent lunar magnetism. What then of the surface field found with some craters and others in non-cratered areas? In Worlds in Collision, Velikovsky suggested that lightning flashes were exchanged between protoplanet Venus and the Earth and Moon. S. K. Runcorn categorically states that "a lightning bolt can magnetize a rock outcrop." (120) That is, lightning created the surface magnetic field which is patchy and is oriented in numerous directions._
_One hemisphere of the Moon exhibits magnetic field strengths generally greater than the opposite hemisphere. ... French states: In general, the maria on the nearside of the Moon have lower magnetism than the highlands - less than 50 gammas - and are more uniform magnetically. The highland areas especially those on the far side, show stronger, if uneven and variable magnetic fields which are often above 300 gammas. (121) ... Scientists concluded 23 years after Velikovsky first proposed his thesis that the close approach of the Moon to the Earth in ancient times melted the Moon and immersed it in the Earth's magnetic field to generate its remanent magnetism. (122)_
{{{But it could have been Venus, instead of Earth, if Venus had a magnetic field. I don't think it does or did, though.}}}
__CONCLUSION
_Seismometers on the lunar surface have measured undeniable evidence of impacts occurring presently. ... Velikovsky's theory accounts for the present lunar bombardment as well. His theory claims that the catastrophes that occurred produced solar system debris such as comets, meteors and zodiacal dust. The production of this debris is presently still with us, but is removed from space by impacts on the satellites of the Sun or by the Sun itself. Debris is also removed from the solar system by near-collisions with its satellites. Velikovsky's theory points out that we are living in the period after a major solar system debacle and that the debris, such as comets, meteors, and zodiacal dust, are the leftovers of this catastrophic period. This fallout, in time, will decline and end until the next great catastrophe._
_Mars also exhibits a hemispheric cratering topography - a kind of hemispheric bulge, hemispheric vulcanism, all on one of the planet's hemispheres, but little or none on the other. This cratering dichotomy is also found on Mercury. (129)_
_Why doesn't the evidence support the eons-long history of impacts if, as Clube and Napier state: "The Moon ... ran through such a [meteor] swarm between 22-26 June 1975 [and] lunar seismometers left by the Apollo astronauts recorded the impacts of a swarm of ton-sized boulders, as many hitting the Moon over those five days, as had struck it over the previous five years"? (131)_

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Nov 05, 2022 7:12 pm

214837

NOTE: Don't overlook the previous post about evidence of ancient catastrophism on the Moon, if interested.

RATIONALE FOR FORMER MEGALITHIC STRUCTURES

This is from a new video at Shattered History that I think is worth posting. A previous theory I read about (some months ago at least) to explain the ancient megalithic structures was that they were built to protect against lightning. That author thought that the air was more electrified. That was also to explain dolmens. The author thought the structures acted like lightning rods. The following theory seems even better, but maybe both are possible.

What Were Ancient Builders Fortifying Against? | How the Pre-Cataclysm World Was Strangely Different
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kb1tHmbT-U0
4,843 views Nov 3, 2022
_When people imagine what the Earth was like in the distant past, they generally think about megalithic stone structures and the artifacts that have been uncovered. However, these creations of ancient civilizations existed in a world that was far different than the world we are familiar with. In order to comprehend why builders made their structures so large and well-fortified, it is necessary to understand the types of lifeforms that once existed, which ancient people would have needed to contend with and fortify against. Moreover, so that we can understand why the diverse range of megafauna that once existed are now gone, researchers such as ourselves need to study how the Earth's atmosphere was drastically different in the distant past, and what unusual events occurred to cause these ancient species (and the lost societies that built such impressive stone buildings) to suddenly go extinct.

The author discusses that the atmosphere formerly had much more oxygen, CO2 and water vapor, as well as much higher atmospheric pressure, which allowed animals and plants to grow much larger than now. She shows evidence that creatures that grow in the deep sea grow much larger than the same kinds of creatures that grow in shallower water. She shows comparisons of ancient giant plants and animals to their modern descendants. When she said Quetzalcoatl was a giant snake, I made this comment: Quetzalcoatl was a comet, not a snake. Specifically, it was likely the planet Venus during a comet-like phase.

When she said mammoths died out in cold climate, I added this comment: Also, mammoths and most other animals would not have been able to survive cold climates. Siberia had a temperate climate and heavy vegetation to support the large herds there.

I added two more comments at the end: Most ancient creatures, including dinosaurs, died in the Great Flood about 5,000 years ago. Creationist websites and videos have a lot of evidence to support this view. I'm not a Creationist, but their science is generally much better than mainstream. The lack of erosion and bioturbation between strata are good evidence that the sedimentary strata were deposited over a short time span. Also, the sorting of strata into sandstone, shale and limestone could only have occurred in major flooding. Several meters of one rock type could not have been deposited over a large area over thousands or millions of years.

PS, that's a good theory, that ancient structures were built so large and well-fortified in order to fend off dangerous animals. There isn't much evidence left of structures built before the Great Flood, since anything built on sedimentary rock would have been built after the Flood. There should have been fewer dangerous animals after the Flood. Large drop stones from Noah's ark were apparently found approaching Mt. Ararat, so that seems to be evidence that advanced tech existed before the Flood. There's some evidence that some humans before the Great Flood were also giants, so maybe they could better handle the dangerous creatures. I've read that leading institutions have been destroying any evidence of formerly giant humans, but I can't tell if those are authoritative. You should have a Substack.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Nov 12, 2022 4:25 pm

216735

INTERESTING LINKS I'VE SEEN RECENTLY

WORLDS IN COLLISION: Nile Flowed with Honey 2740 BC
https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arch ... lision.pdf
p.139 The Egyptians relate that the Nile flowed for a time blended with honey.4
4 Manetho refers this phenomenon to the time of Pharaoh Nephercheres (2nd Dynasty; around 2740 B.C.). See the volume of Manetho in the Loeb Classical Library, pp. 35, 37, 39.

Four Geological Evidences for a Young Earth
https://www.icr.org/article/four-geolog ... oung-earth

Five Global Evidences for a Young Earth
https://www.icr.org/article/five-global ... oung-earth

Counting Earth's Age in Lightning Strikes
https://www.icr.org/article/counting-ea ... g-strikes/

Noah's Flood and Catastrophic Plate Tectonics (from Pangea to Today)
https://youtube.com/watch?v=zd5-dHxOQhg&t=1175s

Genesis Impact Support Video 10 | Dinosaur Extinction: Noah's Flood or an Asteroid?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Pytw3daHZLc

Hidden in Plain Sight Series | Ancient Civilizations Documentary Box-set
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Q8QTg74kUho

World of Antiquity
https://youtube.com/c/WorldofAntiquity/videos

Noah's Flood & North America
https://youtube.com/watch?v=zZCK4fhwG4I

Some Amateur Mythology: Jesus and the Apocalypse - History is a Lie
https://youtube.com/watch?v=sOzxMmAesNI

THIS Is Why Radioactive Dating Methods Are Flawed
https://youtube.com/watch?v=3AomTKRLB_4

How Some Flat Irons formed from Bentonite from Volcanic Eruptions
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wPM9iJNSgrk

Sandstone tubes and at 20'+ how concretions form around fossils etc
https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_ssKHAPvlo&t=952s

Supervolcanoes caused the World’s Largest Landslide in Wyoming, Hart Mountain
https://youtube.com/watch?v=CYS3r3tk2GI

Moon's South Pole-Aitkin Impact Basin (no mascon <moon hot/weak)
https://www.eaps.purdue.edu/news/articl ... carus.html

David Rohl Bronze Age Collapse 800BC, Greek Dark Age
https://youtube.com/watch?v=6CoBr7drw6Q

Tower of Babel at Eridu 3200BC with Dr. David Rohl
https://youtube.com/watch?v=8vLlPbNv4Tk

Was the Azores home to an ancient civilisation?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=2bm5ivctdB4

Khafre's Diorite Statue
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Fr3UC75RU

The Lost Tomb of Nefertiti - Ancient Egypt's Powerful Queen
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z6UA6dZH7-k

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Nov 13, 2022 2:18 am

216830

CHAPTER 6 OF MY ONLINE BOOK "Cataclysmic Earth History"

MEGASEQUENCES: Deposited in Great Flood Tidal Pulses
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... asequences

I just posted that. I think I made it easier to understand, using the best info that I've previously posted plus a little more. I included the excellent video by Kurt Wise on the Great Flood.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:02 am

217052

EARTH'S FORMER WEAK GRAVITY

Weaker gravity could explain how former plants and animals grew extremely tall. Dinosaurs should not have been able to grow so large, if gravity was the same then as now, because, as Ted Holden explained, muscle strength does not increase enough as mass increases. Dinosaurs would not have been able to lift their long necks or their bodies off the ground in present gravity. Delicate hollow lycopod "trees" would not have been able to grow 90 feet high and stand up to any wind.

How did Earth obtain such weak gravity? Was it due to Earth having: 1) larger diameter, but same mass; 2) less mass, and maybe smaller diameter; 3) much faster rotation, causing centrifugal force opposing gravity; 4) much denser atmosphere, causing buoyancy; 5) tidal attraction to a nearby planet, like the Moon, Mars, Venus, or Saturn; or 6) electrical repulsion?

ELECTRICAL REPULSION
This article favored electrical repulsion.
__Geological Genesis, by Harold Tresman (published in Workshop 1992:2)
https://www.tresman.co.uk/harold/09geol.htm
__Introduction. The Review Article 'The Primordial Light' (SISR VII No.2) investigated the mythology surrounding the planet Saturn. It was proposed that such mythology indicates that Earth was once a satellite of what is now known as Saturn. A catastrophic disruption of this Saturnian system led to radical changes in the conditions on Earth. We intend to investigate whether our present knowledge can uphold our support for such a view of Earth History.
_Voyager results show that lightning discharges across the rings are of the order of millions of volts, 100,000 times the power of terrestrial lightning [13].
_Within such a sphere of influence, the Earth would have been highly charged electrically and, because of the polarisation induced between two charged bodies, the charge would have been largely concentrated on the surface of the bulging land mass upon which life was centred.
_We postulate that as a result, 'gravity' would have been greatly reduced on the Earth's charged land mass bulge.

TORNADIC LEVITATION
This paper explains how tornadoes can cause large objects to float in the air by electrical repulsion. However, I don't see how that could affect the entire former supercontinent.
__The Electromagnetic Nature of Tornadic Supercell Thunderstorms
http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/ ... tric#id_33
http://charles-chandler.org/Geophysics/ ... ?text=full

PLANETARY TIDAL OR ELECTRICAL ATTRACTION
Like Tresman's article hints, a planet or the Moon might have been close enough to Earth to pull up a supercontinental land mass as well as weaken gravity over that landmass. Mythology seems to suggest that Mars, Venus and Saturn were previously near the Earth, always above the north pole, but it doesn't seem to mention the Moon. I think the Moon was close to Earth during the Great Flood, which caused the tsunamis of the Flood, but it must have only been that close briefly. Tresman mentioned electric charge, but I don't understand how charge would cause weaker gravity. If Earth's surface and the creatures on Earth had the same strong charge, probably negative, as it is now weakly negative, I can see that that would possibly make the creatures very lightweight. So far the other ideas seem unlikely.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:07 am

217410

MORE ON EARTH'S FORMER WEAKER GRAVITY

ELECTRICAL FORCES WEAKENED EARTH'S GRAVITY
In my previous post I mentioned Tresman's statement: "We postulate that as a result, 'gravity' would have been greatly reduced on the Earth's charged land mass bulge." I alsom mentioned a reference to Charles Chandler's explanation of Tornadic Levitation. But just now I remembered that he has an even better paper to help explain Earth's former charge repulsion and thus weaker gravity. Following are some excerpts.

Titius-Bode Law http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=15369
_The Titius-Bode Law encapsulates the observation that all of the planets out to Uranus have orbits around the Sun that are twice the radius of the previous planet. (See Figure 1.) This leaves a large gap between Mars & Jupiter, but that's precisely where we find the Asteroid Belt, with Ceres as its largest member.
_There have been many attempts to explain the Titius-Bode Law in Newtonian terms.
_A possibility not previously considered is that the planets are actually locked into specific orbits by two opposing forces, with gravity pulling inward, and with electrostatic repulsion pushing back out.
_The Debye cells that make up a dusty plasma [in space], with their negatively charged nuclei and positively charged sheaths, show net positive charges at a distance, [so] will show a net electrostatic repulsion between them.1,2,3
_With a typical center-to-center spacing of 10 m between Debye cells, if there is just 1 ion per 10^15 neutral atoms, the electrostatic repulsion is as strong as the gravitational attraction. At greater degrees of ionization or at closer spacings, the repulsion is stronger, preventing the gravitational collapse.
_The spacing between the planets is roughly the same spacing as in dusty plasmas. The dust grain in a Debye cell typically has a diameter of roughly 10^−4 m. With a typical distance of 10 m between cells, that's a distance/diameter ratio of 10^5. The ratio between the planets is within two orders of magnitude of this. (See Table 1.)
_The fact that the planets are packed tighter than typical Debye cells is easily explained by the presence of the Sun's gravity, which is an extra consolidating force that isn't present in a dusty plasma. The twofold increase in separation with distance from the Sun [which is the Titius-Bode Law] is explained as the diminishing effect of the Sun's gravity with distance from it. In other words, the outer planets are not packed as tightly, because the packing force [gravity] is weaker.
_[A similar distance/diameter ratio exists between adjacent molecules in the microcosm and between adjacent stars in the galaxy and between adjacent stars in globular clusters in the macrocosm, as well as between exoplanets in other star systems.]


_Charles showed the distance to diameter ratios between the solar system planets as approx. 6k, 3k, 8k, 8k, 5k, 17k, 33k & 53k from Mercury to Pluto. He didn't list the Sun & Mercury ratio which is .083k. For Earth and the Moon it's .046k.
_If the Saturn system had similar ratios to the solar system's present ratios, Venus would have been over 18 million miles from Mars and Mars would have been a similar distance from Earth. That seems too far apart to have permitted close encounters. If Venus looked 1/5th the size of Saturn and if Saturn was 80,000 miles in diameter, then Venus would have been twice as close to Earth. If Mars looked 80% as big as Venus, it would have been maybe 5/8 as far from Earth as Venus was.
Here's a diagram of Saturn (S) at 100 million miles from Earth (E), Venus (V) at 50 million miles and Mars (M) at 30 million miles.
-S----------.----------.----------.----------.----------V----------.----------M----------.----------.----------E
_If Saturn looked as big as the Moon does now, it would have been about 9 million miles away. If it looked twice as big, it would have been 4.5 million miles. If 3 times as big, then I think 3 million miles away. I'll go with 3 million. Then Venus would have been at 1.5 million miles and Mars at .9 million miles, over 3 times the Moon's present distance.
_This would mean the distance/diameter ratios would have been much smaller than the present ones, which seems to mean that the electrical repulsion was weaker than at present. Maybe there was positive charge in the plasma between the planets. I guess that would have weakened the gravity effect quite a bit. So it seems that maybe a positively charged plasma column between the negatively charged planets caused them to stay fairly close together.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Nov 20, 2022 10:37 pm

217789

VIDEO ON THE ICE AGE TRANSCRIBED

I didn't transcribe this video word for word, but paraphrased much of it.

The Great Ice Age
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ekejmQKfNI
_ICE AGE FACTS. Geologists started believing in an Ice Age in 1840, which was an assault on uniformitarianism, because, if the present is the key to the past, there should not have been widespread glaciation in the past. So the Ice Age has been a major mystery ever since it was discovered. A special August 1997 issue of U.S. News and World Report was dedicated to mysteries of science, which included the cause of Ice Ages. So they don't know. An ice age is defined as a great increase in ice and snow. What's needed for an ice age is a lot cooler summers and a lot more moisture that persists for years. Presently 10% of Earth's land mass is covered by ice, mainly the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets. But during the Ice Age 30% of the land mass was covered by ice, including much of Europe and North America, northern and western U.S., the Andes Mountains in South America and the mountains of Tasmania, an island south of Australia. The former ice coverage is known because present glaciers leave features that greatly resemble features in the formerly glaciated locations. One theory is that the glaciers expanded gradually from the north.
_ERRATICS. An erratic is a boulder that doesn't outcrop locally. Glacial Lake Missoula filled up 2,000 feet deep in western Montana, then it emptied into the Columbia River gorge 1,000 feet deep, then it spread out in the Portland and Vancouver area, and covered Portland 400 feet deep. Then it backwashed up Willamette Valley 400 feet deep, still carrying hundreds of erratic boulders on the ice, the largest being 90 tons of argillite (slightly metamorphic shale). On highland terrain, a planation surface (planed flat by flood sheet erosion), in northern Montana is a large banded granite erratic boulder that came from 400 miles north in Canada from the former ice sheet. Was it carried on a moving glacier? A problem with that is that the ice sheet in northern Montana was very thin. The top of the nearby Flaxville Plateau to the east was sticking above the ice. And to the north is the Wood Mountain Plateau in Saskatchewan, also unglaciated. The western end of the nearby Cypress Hills to the west protruded 300 feet above the ice sheet. So the ice sheet was only about 700 feet thick locally into Canada. Glaciers can only move down slopes. If there's no slope they can't move. The tens of thousands of erratics like this must have drifted downstream on large ice rafts as the ice sheet was melting and flooding. Erratics show signs of water action.
_UNGLACIATED ARCTIC. A subsidiary mystery of the Ice Age is that in Alaska and Siberia, only the mountains were glaciated, not the lowlands. Also, Ice Age fossils include both warm-loving and cold-loving animals. Mainstream science can't explain this, because they assume that the Ice Age was very cold. Hippos lived in large parts of northwest Europe during the Ice Age. Cold-tolerant animals lived and died with them in the same locations. In southern England are a hundred places where hippo fossils are found along with wooly mammoths, reindeer and musk ox. Another mystery is how animals thrived during the Ice Age. At the end of the Ice Age animals over 100 pounds and large birds went extinct. In North America 70% of these animals went extinct, i.e., e.g. sloths, saber-toothed tigers, wooly mammoths, American mastodons, dire wolves. About 70% also went extinct in Eurasia, 90% in Australia, where only tops of mountains were glaciated, and 60-70% in South America. Africa was an exception, with very few extinctions. Why would they go extinct at the end of the Ice Age when the ice sheet was melting, climate was warming and more land was becoming available.
_FORMERLY GREEN DESERTS. Another mystery is why arid and desert regions formerly had abundant rain, lakes, rivers and wildlife. The U.S. Southwest had dozens of lakes, some very large and hundreds of feet deep. These lakes grew during the Ice Age and some were glaciated. Distinct shorelines and raised deltas prove they existed. Australia and Africa also had a lot of lakes. The Dead Sea was also a very large lake. The Sahara Desert and Arabian Peninsula had lakes and big rivers. There are even fossils of hippos in the Sahara during the Ice Age. And there are petroglyphs there of abundant wildlife, which images were drawn by humans.
_SOME MAMMOTH MYSTERIES. First, the extinction of wooly mammoths from North America and Siberia is explained. The wooly mammoth, about 11 feet tall, had 3 kinds of hair, the outer hair was 3 feet long. It had a hump on its head and back, smaller ears than elephants had, and a sloping back. The Columbian mammoth, which lived farther south, was about 14 feet tall. There are millions of fossils of wooly mammoths still buried in permafrost. How did they get into the permafrost? There are only a couple dozen nearly whole carcasses of wooly mammoths. The food in their stomachs was only half decayed. Why? Some carcasses were found in a standing position, as if trying to exit from bogs. But no bogs are found. Five of the animals found died by suffocation. Some of the carcasses also had broken bones. If there were warm interglacial periods during which the mammoths might have been able to survive in the north, the land would have been too boggy and bog vegetation is toxic to grazing animals. Initially, some thought that the half-decayed food in mammoth stomachs was due to quick-freezing.
_MOST ICE AGES WERE FLOOD LANDSLIDES. Mainstream scientists assume that Ice Ages occurred 5 times or so in the recent and distant past. One assumption is that some hard rock layers look like glacial till sequences, where many different sizes of rock are seen in a fine grain matrix. Other evidence is scratched rocks and bedrock and rocks in fine sediment, called dropstone bar bites. On top of the 9,500 foot high gravelly mountains of southwest Montana is sandstone bedrock with scratches from broken rock that slid down the slope. Along with supposed glacial sediment found in Colorado, it was initially concluded that these were remnants of a former Ice Age. But one occurred during a warm era, so that conclusion was changed to evidence of landslide. And the author thinks most of the other supposed Ice Ages were also just landslides. Some of the landslide material is well-rounded quartzite rocks, which outcrop about 100 miles west in central Idaho. So they were transported to the locaion in Montana. When Floodwaters were flowing off the continents, resistant rocks were carried along and rounded. Other less-resistant rocks were pulverized into sand and silt. That's the rocks within a fine matrix that were mistaken for glacial till. There were a lot of submarine landslides on the continents during the Great Flood. Landslides also explain the scratches, or striations, on rocks and bedrock. Landslides also occur during volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, such as at Mt. St. Helens in Oregon.
_ICE AGE REQUIREMENTS. An Ice Age needs cooling down to below 32 degrees Fahrenheit, because summer sun melts ice well below 32 degrees. On the coast of Antarctica, melting in sunshine occurs at 14 degrees, so an Ice Age would need temperatures below that. Computer simulations starting with an Ice Age ice sheet 30 feet thick showed that, instead of growing thicker, actually would almost completely melt in 5 years. The Milankovitch theory of Ice Age cooling due to gradual orbital change would have solar radiation changes too small, as meteorologists have explained for over 100 years. The Ice Age obviously followed the Great Flood because there are sharp moraines and scratched rocks with sharp unweathered edges. In fact, the Great Flood would have triggered the Ice Age. The 3 requirements for an Ice Age are much cooler summers, much more moisture, as from evaporation of the oceans, and these conditions need to persist for many years. The Ice Age was triggered by the Flood, because the latter was a tectonic and volcanic event. Volcanic ash and aerosols would have remained in the stratosphere after the Flood and would have reflected sunlight back into space, cooling the air and land surfaces, including in summer. Volcanism continued during the Ice Age, keeping aerosols in the stratosphere for many years. Stratovolcanoes in the Cascades are among hundreds of volcanoes that erupted during the Ice Age. The Flood events put Earth out of geological equilibrium. It took many centuries till today to return nearly to equilibrium.
_SOURCE AND EXTENT OF THE ICE. There was abundant moisture after the Flood because the oceans were very warm due to tectonics and volcanism [and impacts?]. [The molten Atlantic and Indian Ocean floors filled with Pacific Ocean water that evaporated for days or weeks.] Seven times more evaporation occurs in 86 degree water as in 32 degree water. The water vapor turned to snow in northern North American and northern Europe. Larry Vardiman found that the eastern Pacific Ocean would have produced 4 to 8 times as much snow on the Sierras and Yellowstone Park area, which latter was under 3,000 feet of ice. This also produced warmer winters in both hemispheres, often below freezing, but warmer than today. So there was very little seasonal contrast when the Ice Age began. Many areas didn't glaciate till the middle or late Ice Age. The Seattle area and the British Isles probably didn't glaciate till midway through the Ice Age. The Arctic Ocean remained warm for a long time and kept Yukon, Alaska and Siberia unglaciated. Forests would have grown around the Arctic Ocean during the early Ice Age, but died out late in the Ice Age. If the Arctic Ocean was 86 degrees right after the Flood and cooled to 50 degrees when the Ice Age reached maximum depth and area, it would have taken 500 years, and another 200 years at the end of the Ice Age. The average depth of the ice sheet in the northern hemisphere was about 2,100 feet. In the southern hemisphere, mainly on Antarctica, it averaged about 4,000 feet. It would take 70 to 200 years to melt the ice sheet after it reached maximum depth. [This assumes that the Younger Dryas impacts didn't melt the ice sheet.]
_ONLY ONE ICE AGE. At 50 minutes is described some results of ice sheet meltwater flooding in Montana and Wyoming. 200 feet of gravel was deposited in valleys along with boulders, many probably carried by large ice rafts. Then the extent of the global ice sheet is described, which covered 30% of all land. After the Ice Age there have been several oscillations of climate with warmer and cooler periods, caused by variations in solar radiation and by occasional volcanism. About 50 oscillations in Oxygen-16 to Oxygen-18 ratios occur in ocean floor drill cores. However, many scientists are starting to conclude that there was only one Ice Age in western Canada. South of the ice sheet are wind-blown loess deposits, which are dust. But no loess has been found from previous Ice Ages. Also, there are areas of the ice sheet that were never glaciated, such as in parts of Wisconsin, Montana and Saskatchewan. Only one Ice Age, the post-Flood Ice Age, ended with an extinction event.
_WARM-LOVING ANIMALS IN THE ICE AGE. Warm Arctic winters allowed warm- and cold-loving animals to associate in the northern regions, which were just as rich in grasses as the Serengeti in central Africa is today. Here's how hippos got to northwest Europe after the Flood. With warm oceans the west coasts of continents got warm onshore airflow. This kept northwest Europe warm and moist with probably four times today's precipitation. As time went on, the winters got increasingly colder, so the hippos got trapped in a cooling climate and died out. Then cold-tolerant animals like mammoths moved into the same areas, only to get similarly trapped late in the Ice Age as the ice reduced the food supply and they died out too.
_ICE AGE LAKES. The warm oceans caused much more precipitation in areas that are now arid. Today, between 30 degrees north and south latitude, there is a belt of sinking air that is very dry, where major deserts are now located. During the Ice Age, those areas were much wetter. There were formerly many lakes in these areas that likely filled up from waters of the Great Flood. As continents rose up from Flood waters, some of the waters were trapped in lakes. Many of them continued to fill up during the first part of the Ice Age.
_LOW SEA LEVEL. Sea level dropped because ice piled up on land. The whole Bering shelf of the Arctic Ocean was exposed for hundreds of miles. Fossils are found on the shelf and on some Arctic islands hundreds of miles from the present coast.
_MIGRATIONS. The post-Flood rapid Ice Age solves mysteries, such as how animals and humans spread through the Americas. Mammoths spread from Siberia to Alaska and some followed an ice-free corridor through western Canada (along the east side of the Rockies) to the U.S. and Central and South America. Warm, dry southward moving Chinook winds kept the cordillera open till the late Ice Age. Humans and animals migrated through it. The corridor then filled in with ice and left fossils underneath. In southeast Asia when sea level was low there, animals and humans migrated to Australia. Early in the Ice Age animals multiplied rapidly in the ideal climate with heavy precipitation to grow abundant grasses and other vegetation. Late in the Ice Age, the warmer winters became colder and cool summers got warmer, so the ice sheet began to melt and the cold winters didn't add new snow. The animals became increasingly stressed. There are now millions of mammoth fossils in Siberia, buried in permafrost. The ivory is preserved because of it. Many fossils are found on top of glacial debris. Many mammoths ended up near the Arctic Ocean. Siberia and Alaska in the Arctic initially had mild winters and heavy precipitation, resulting in abundant plant and animal life. There would have been a lot of forests near the Arctic Ocean with extensive grasslands beyond. Initially, there was no permafrost and no summer bogs. Permafrost is caused by freezing air temperatures. Saiga antelopes with small hooves were abundant and they could not have negotiated permafrost. Burrowing animal fossils (from badgers and ferrets) also indicate there was initially no permafrost. There were also beavers which could likely not have been able to live with permafrost. The former extensive grasslands are called the mammoth steppe.
_LETHAL COLD DUST STORMS. Late in the Ice Age, melting fresh water floated on sea water and started freezing making sea ice in the Arctic. As the north became colder and drier, the temperature differenc es between the arctic and tropics drove strong dry storms with strong winds that picked up a lot of dust. The dust is silt, called loess, deposited in many parts of the northern hemisphere, like in central U.S., Europe, Siberia, Alaska, China. This helped cause many animal extinctions in the late Ice Age. Most of the extinct animals were buried in the wind-blown silt. What likely happened is that the strong stormy winds buried animals quickly. The permafrost was getting deeper as the cold increased. As dust was blowing over animals the permafrost caused it to freeze and to preserve the carcasses. Some of the dust storms could have been very severe, maybe even worse than the dust storms from the 1930s dust bowl, which covered up fences, machinery, and even buildings like barns. As mammoths were eating what they could find, as dust began to blow, they would turn their backs to the wind. The air would be cold and the dust would reduce visibility to zero, so they would not see where to go, so they would stand still. But the dust would quickly pile up over their back legs and then their front legs. [Maybe they would stand still too long because the pile of dust helped to block the wind to reduce the wind chill, so they would feel warmer by not moving much.] The dust would pile up like snow behind a snow fence and would pack hard like snow in a blizzard. They would then have difficulty trying to move to get unstuck. As the dust entombed the animals, they would breathe in too much dust and suffocate and they would stay standing because of the frozen dust holding them up. Some of their legs would have broken by trying to get unstuck from the loess. The loess would have soon become frozen and part of the permafrost. Permafrost can fault and shift several feet or more, especially on slopes, so broken pelvis and rib bones could have been caused by such shifting. The partial preservation of vegetation in the stomachs of some mammoths is not unusual. Similar preservation has occurred in other mastodons in bogs in the Northeast U.S., which would not have flash-frozen. Elephant digestion is like that of horses. It occurs in the intestine instead of in the stomach. So mammoths were likely similar. Temperatures could have fallen to about 50 degrees below zero pretty quickly, which would have been sufficient to preserve the stomach contents and some mammoth soft tissues.
_ICE SHEET MELTED AFTER 700 YEARS. A short Ice Age of 700 years could have been long enough to account for 50 million mammoths in Siberia. Elephant populations can double in ten years, so mammoths similarly would have reached 50 million in just 3 centuries. Great numbers of mammoth bones and tusks are found on the New Siberian Islands and other Arctic islands. The continental shelf extends about 300 miles from northern Siberia. During the Ice Age, when sea level was low because water was locked up in the ice sheet, what are now islands would have been highlands far out on the former coast. As the ice sheet began to melt, the sea level rose, sometimes catastrophically from rapid melting or the release of large amounts of water from breached lakes, leaving many mammoths stranded on the highlands, which became islands. Mammoth bones are also found on the continental shelf that's now inundated. [The shelf likely grew abundant grasses when it was above sea level.] The islands didn't have enough food [or fresh water?] for so many mammoths, so they soon starved to death. After the ice sheet built up for about 500 years, warmer summers would have started causing rapid melting. The melting would have ended in about 200 years.

PANGAEA BREAKUP
_This video, "The Great Ice Age", at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ekejmQKfNI suggests that the mountains existed when the ice sheet formed after the Flood. And megafauna lived in Siberia after the Flood (and after the Pangaea breakup) because of warm oceans, warm winters, and cool summers (due to volcanism).
_In contrast, this video, "Mystery of the Erdstall Tunnels Solved (Thousands of Ancient Subterranean Passages Beneath Europe), at https://youtube.com/watch?v=7HLqleFVoDg claims at the 13 minute mark that the large mammals called megafauna lived before the Pangaea breakup when the climate was warm and died out during the breakup when the climate became cold.
_REMAINING QUESTIONS. I'm now persuaded that the transcribed video above is likely more correct, that the Pangaea breakup occurred toward the end of the Great Flood. It answers most of the questions about the Ice Age and the megafauna rather well. It contends that it wasn't cold enough to during the early Ice Age to bother warm-loving animals too much. I guess that's plausible. Some questions it doesn't answer are these.
1. When did the Younger Dryas event occur? I think it occurred when the ice sheet began to melt severely.
2. How did plants and animals survive in the Arctic Circle during 6 months of darkness? I think the Arctic may have been lit up by Saturn over the north pole.
3. How did the permafrost get so deep on part of Siberia? I think it may have been caused by a large comet impact that released some form of nitrogen during the Younger Dryas event.
4. Would a thinner ice sheet have sequestered enough ocean water to lower sea level enough to connect Arctic islands to Siberia? I guess so.

Lloyd
Posts: 5413
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Nov 24, 2022 5:20 pm

217971

MECHANISM OF THE SATURN THEORY
Someone on a Miles Mathis forum said: Mechanics is where both Velikovsky and the EU fall short IMO. Maybe it's my engineering mindset; but I have a hard time seeing how a 'mini-solar system' with Saturn at the center could sustain itself in a roughly perpendicular fashion to the ecliptic and maintain itself over enough centuries that mankind would fashion religious beliefs around it across multiple cultures.
[I think he misunderstands the Saturn Theory a little.]

MILES MATHIS' VS ELECTRIC MODEL OF STAR/PLANET FORMATION
Do you consider Miles' mechanics to be a thorough explanation of the solar system and its formation? I don't. I haven't kept up with his newer papers for the last few years, but I read many of the earlier ones. His paper on solar system formation pointed out some things that contradict the nebular hypothesis with its gravitational collapse model. But it didn't go into detail, just suggesting that magnetic fields had some effect, as far as I recall. I find Charles Chandler's electrical model to be extremely thorough and mechanical at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=6031 .

ELECTRIC CHARGE THEORY
What do you think of the mainstream claims about electric charge, positive and negative? I wrote up a bunch of questions for Miles that are listed on another thread, but I don't think Miles has ever answered any of them. I think I asked about the numbers of electrons and protons in the universe. The mainstream says there are equal numbers of each. I assume Miles would say that electrons greatly outnumber protons. However, Miles said electrons block charge recycling, causing molecules to become neutral, not exchanging charge with the environment. A neutral atom or molecule would require equal numbers of electrons and protons. Right? He explained the attraction between electrons and protons as being due to protons being much bigger, so the charge that's sprayed out equatorially from a proton would knock the protons back, but many of the little electrons would slip through the charge disk. I disagree and I don't see that as being a good argument. I think high and low pressure and subphotons may be a better explanation of electric charge attraction and repulsion, opposites (high and low pressure areas) being attracted and sames being repelled. Charles Chandler accepts mainstream findings on electric charge and he was able to develop very thorough explanations of the formation and features of stars, planets, galaxies etc. So I think Miles' ideas lack thoroughness.

STAR FORMING FILAMENTS
What do you think of Charles' papers on Accretion and on Filaments? That's where he discusses electric charge at the microcosmic level, which he then develops to explain the macrocosm as well. In his paper on the Titius-Bode Law at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=15369 he uses the electric charge on planets to account for the spacing between them, with gravity accounting for the closer spacing near the Sun. In the Filaments paper he shows that electric charge accounts for the linear arrangement of atoms within filaments, as one charge will tend to get an opposite charge attracted to one side and another on the opposite side (i.e. neg-pos-neg or pos-neg-pos) because it shields the repulsive forces of the same charges from each other (sam-opp-sam). If the same charges move away from a 180 degree alignment, they will begin to repel each other, which will move them back toward the 180 degree alignment. PNP or NPN will attract an N or a P to each end and will end up with long strings of adjacent opposite charges. Stars and planets appear to form within and from filaments. Charles shows how two imploding filament parts would form spherical electric double layers. These stars/planets would also have negative charge, I think, with diffuse positive charge between them. The implosion would involve the filaments of stars/planets moving linearly toward the center like letting go of a stretched rubber band from both ends, so it snaps together. As the rubber band, i.e. filament, begins to snap together, stars/planets form along segments of the filament and they continue to move linearly closer together till they get close enough to repel each other, as per the Titius-Bode Law.

SOLAR SYSTEM FILAMENT
So I think the solar system filament formed the Sun and planets at great distances from each other along the filament, though the distances were shrinking due to the linear implosion. Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Mars and Earth formed closer together on the filament moving toward the Sun in that order. They weren't moving directly toward the Sun, but toward a point near the present orbit of Pluto or Neptune or whatever, so the line of planets spiraled inward from that initial orbital distance for some centuries until they reached near the orbit of Saturn. Saturn's motion was unstable enough to cause it to separate from the line of planets and move onto its present orbit, maybe after the orbit was originally more eccentric. The planets then followed Jupiter for perhaps a few decades, then Mars and Earth moved off of the line onto their orbits. I think Dave Talbott figured that Jupiter continued spiraling inward to Venus' orbit, where Venus left the line. It seems that Jupiter needed to escort Earth at least to Earth's orbit in order to prevent Earth from freezing over after Saturn left the line at Saturn's orbit. According to Wal Thornhill and Dwardu Cardona (also an engineer), Earth had been close enough to Saturn previously to keep the biosphere warm and healthy. Jupiter apparently would also have had enough heat to prevent freezing on Earth.

ORBIT CIRCULARIZATION
So that's an attempt to sync the mythohistorical record and star/planet formation theory. If you think it would not have been possible for planetary orbits to circularize in a short time, you may have overlooked dust and gases in the inner solar system. Saturn seems to have suffered a nova-like eruption which could have produced a great deal of dust, and possibly even many asteroids and comets. Charles Chandler explained how small stars flare or nova and become gas giant planets at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=18943 . Charles Ginenthal explained that dust in the inner solar system could have circularized orbits in a short time, but I don't have that reference handy.

Now does this seem mechanical enough for you?

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:05 am

220883

ORBIT CIRCULARIZATION AGAIN, DUH

__ELECTRICAL CIRCULARIZATION OF ORBITS
By duh, I mean: Why didn't I notice earlier that Charles Chandler's model also likely answers the Circularization of planetary orbits problem? In the previous post I said: "In his paper on the Titius-Bode Law at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=15369 he uses the electric charge on planets to account for the spacing between them, with gravity accounting for the closer spacing near the Sun."
Under ORBIT CIRCULARIZATION, I said: "Charles Ginenthal explained that dust in the inner solar system could have circularized orbits in a short time". I now think it was R. Forshufvud who wrote that, as per below. But I neglected to notice that Charles Chandler's explanation of the Titius-Bode Law would also likely explain orbit circularization in a short time period. If planets and moons and asteroids all have the same charge sign, they would repel each other especially at closer ranges, which could be 30 or 40 million miles distance, or more for larger bodies.
_I found Forshufvud's article and it has some interesting statements, so I'll copy some of them here.

__[SATURN NOVA EXPELLED GAS CLOUD]
2. On the circularization of the Orbit of Venus [Journals] [Kronos]
__From: Kronos Vol. VII No. 2 (Winter 1982) Ragnar Forshufvud
__ABSTRACT. After the Saturn nova outburst that caused the Deluge, a flat cloud of hydrogen gas would have been rotating around the Sun. The aerodynamic drag caused by the hydrogen gas may have changed the orbit of Venus substantially in a period of a few hundred years. This is demonstrated by numerical calculations, using a theoretical model for the gas cloud. The effects of the gas on electric and magnetic fields in space are also discussed. Velikovsky's reconstruction of ancient astronomical events requires that the orbit of Venus, originally elliptic like that of a comet of the Jovian family, became circular in a period of a few thousand years. ... A more recent contribution to the discussion was written by Sherrerd.(2)
__[ORBITS OF MOONS OF PLANETS ALSO CIRCULARIZED]
_The problem of orbit circularization does not concern catastrophist astronomy only. According to some theorists, several satellites of the large planets are in fact captured asteroids which succeeded, after being captured, in achieving approximately circular orbits. The Moon may also be a captured body - no really satisfactory theory has been found for the existence of a satellite to the Earth, the difficulty with the capture theory being the circularization problem. The extra difficulty which meets the catastrophist is that the time scale is so short. Some of the oldest traditions refer to a time when there was no Moon.(3) This indicates that the Moon was captured comparatively recently. ... Furthermore, Velikovsky has suggested that the Earth was once a satellite of Saturn. This seems to be the only way to explain certain parts of the oldest myths, but it leaves us with another circularization problem: how did the Earth get its circular orbit, after it had left the gravitational field of Saturn?
__[POSSIBLE ELECTRICAL OR MAGNETIC CIRCULARIZATION]
_Several authors (5, 6, 7) have stressed ... that forces of an electrical or magnetic nature may play a much greater role than is generally recognized. In 1972, Sherrerd(8) wrote: "... if there exist strong electromagnetic forces, attractive or repulsive, between Venus and the Sun, the orbit of Venus would tend to reach circular orbit in less time than expected by gravitational and tidal-dissipation considerations alone." But there is not yet a fully worked-out theory of electromagnetic circularization, and electromagnetic forces do not automatically solve the fundamental problems of energy and angular momentum. This article [does] not ... rule out the possibility that the orbit of Venus was circularized by electromagnetic forces. Its purpose is to demonstrate that, even without such forces, the circularization of the orbit of Venus can be fully explained on the basis of a simple gas-cloud model. ... As we shall see, electromagnetic forces were probably responsible for the scattering of the cloud.
__THE GAS CLOUD.
_When studying ancient catastrophes, Velikovsky found that the Deluge must have been caused by a nova-like outburst within the solar system.(9) He identified the erupting body as Saturn. Tresman and O'Gheoghan,(10) and Cardona(11) have come to the same conclusions. ... The present theory is based upon the assumption that the outburst of Saturn gave rise to a disc-shaped cloud of hydrogen gas, rotating around the Sun. This cloud is assumed to have remained in the solar system for several thousand years, so that it was still there when Venus entered upon the stage. The idea of the disc-shaped cloud came from the fact that such clouds play an essential part in modern nova theory. Rotating gas clouds, shaped like discs or rings, are assumed to be created whenever a cataclysmic variable has an outburst, regardless of whether this cataclysmic variable is an ordinary nova, a recurrent nova, a dwarf nova or a nova-like variable. In general, it is agreed that a nova consists of at least two bodies. The one with the larger mass is called the primary, and the one with the smaller mass, the secondary. During the outburst, hydrogen-rich material is transferred from the gravitational field of the secondary to that of the primary, forming a disc-shaped cloud rotating around the primary.(12) Applying the accepted nova model to a hypothetical outburst of Saturn is not without problems. It requires Saturn to have been much larger than now, and much closer to the Sun.
__[DISC-SHAPE FORMATION]
_Let us assume that some kind of outburst took place not necessarily similar to anything yet observed by modern astronomers - and that hydrogen gas was ejected from Saturn. If we study what has been published of Velikovsky's own words on Saturn and the Flood(15) we find that he mentions the disruption of Saturn as well as the ejection of hydrogen gas. If, as most theorists believe, a large portion of Saturn is hydrogen, a disruption would automatically lead to ejection of hydrogen into space. A portion of the hydrogen gas probably had sufficient energy for leaving the solar system forever. Gas molecules with sufficient energy to leave the gravitational field of Saturn, but not the gravitational field of the Sun, would circulate in orbits around the Sun, forming a gas cloud similar to the disc-shaped cloud of the accepted nova model, which also rotates around the primary. The reason why such a cloud assumes a flat shape is that the amount of energy required for giving something an orbit in or near the plane of revolution (corresponding to the ecliptic plane of the solar system) is much smaller than the energy required for giving it an orbit far from this plane, a fact well-known to those who follow space research. For similar reasons, the direction of the cloud's rotation would coincide with the direction of Saturn's movement around the Sun.
__[CLOUD CONTENTS & DAMPING EFFECT]
_The cloud formed by the Saturn nova outburst consisted mainly of hydrogen gas. It certainly contained other things as well, but in what proportions is difficult to say. As the cloud was the cause of the Deluge, it must have contained water - unless as Velikovsky suggested as a possibility, the water was the result of an oxidation of hydrogen in the Earth's atmosphere.(16) My own guess is that the cloud did contain water - originally in the form of ice crystals. The ice contained a small proportion of common salt (sodium chloride) and other contaminants (old sources say that the waters of the Deluge were salty(17)). In the heat of the Sun, the ice vaporized with the contaminants forming a dust. The water vapour and the dust remained in the gas and followed the same path around the Sun. Planets having elliptic orbits met an aerodynamic drag which tended to damp out all movements relative to the cloud, so that the orbits tended to conform to the circular movement of the cloud. The theory has an attractive feature. If it is correct, the circularization of planetary orbits would not be the result of some rare coincidence. It would be the logical consequence of the damping action of the gas upon any movement relative [to] the gas. ... GRADUAL ENERGY LOSS. Rose and Vaughan(18) worked out three possible sequences of events, all starting with the stage when Venus was still behaving like a comet of the Jovian family and ending up with the present situation.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:38 am

221588

THREAD MAP LINKS

Maybe the Chronology can be told with maps or a combination of maps and images.

TIMELINE
1. Saturn Configuration; 2. Pangaea Formation; 3. Great Flood (5,300 BC); 4. Pangaea Breakup; 5. Ice Age; 6. Younger Dryas Ice Sheet Flood (4,600 BC); 7. Post Ice Age

1. Venus Maps
_Venus Complete Surface http://physics.weber.edu/palen/Phsx1040 ... e-NASA.jpg
_Rotating Venus Excellent NASA Video halfway down page https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/venus/in-depth/
_Detailed Elevation Map http://spaceodyssey.dmns.org/media/6141 ... mosaic.png
_Best Detailed Elevation Map with Names of Features and less polar distortion https://i.redd.it/pbhe511kr2wy.jpg
_Elevation Map with Names of Large Features & Spacecraft Landing Sites http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-medi ... A3A950.jpg
_Elevation Map with Names of Large Features https://i.stack.imgur.com/mmdpI.jpg
_Elevation Map of Venus https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/magellan/gif/venustop.gif

2. Map of Western Half of Pangaea (before the Flood and before the breakup of the supercontinent)
https://i.ibb.co/q0C1xHG/Pangaea.png

3. World map of the major basins (many may have formed from meteor impacts during the Flood)
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/basin3.gif

3. World map of sedimentary rock thickness (where the Great Flood left most of the sediments)
https://igppweb.ucsd.edu/~gabi/sediment.html

3. World map of radioactivity (where electrical discharging was possibly most intense during the Flood)
https://sockrotation.com/2018/01/16/agm ... ve-planet/

3. World Map of Precambrian Rocks (where sediments were washed away by the Flood)
https://project.geo.msu.edu/geogmich/im ... _belts.JPG

3. World map with terranes of Precambrian Archean and Proterozoic crust. Dark areas are Archean crust: unshaded with numbers. Proterozoic crust: shaded lines in areas either under ice or preventing direct access. Phanerozoic orogenic belts: dot pattern.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--RJOXLKu_y0/ ... colors.jpg

3. Map of Americas and Africa Megasequences (deposited by the Great Flood by tidal pulses)
https://ibb.co/ZcmCxPH

4. Map of Antarctic Canyon System (probably formed during Pangaea breakup and buried under ice in the middle of the Ice Age)
https://static.scientificamerican.com/s ... 4147C258C0

4. Map of Greenland Canyon (formed by rifting (?) during the Pangaea breakup)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... p.vp9.webm

5. Canadian Eskers Map (Eskers are rock ridges formed under the ice sheet from channeled erosion)
https://ibb.co/VBFMTTd

5. Ancient UK Map possibly with Doggerland (which was possibly submerged by sea level rise at the end of the Ice Age)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkBqjoIU4B4

6. Saturn System Breakup
https://ibb.co/DtN620S

6. Map of North American Erratic Boulders (that drifted on ice rafts south from the Ice Sheet at the end of the Ice Age)
https://external-preview.redd.it/KDqRat ... 3adafd859a

6. World Map of Erratic Boulder Trains
http://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map- ... _266321104

6. World Map of Permafrost (since the end of the Ice Age)
http://gtnpdatabase.org/boreholes

7. List of Ancient Maps
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =360#p3469

7. Ancient Maps ERRORS: Piri Reis Map
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2J1ndzQilY

7. Ancient Maps ERRORS: Philippe Buache Map
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKpyl80AYLU

7. Ancient Maps ERRORS: 1531 Oronteus Finaeus Map
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNoZd48pz0U

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Dec 13, 2022 10:53 pm

221898

CHICXULUB IMPACT & SPLIT OF AMERICAS FROM AFRICA

Mike Fischer has a page about the Chicxulub impact at https://www.newgeology.us/presentation17.html#Chicxulub .
HUDSON BAY IMPACT. First, he shows that the Hudson Bay impact could have occurred where Iceland is now, but, because the Americas were then starting to move away from Europe and Africa, the lower part of the impact trail remained at Iceland, while the surface portion moved to the Hudson Bay location. See this image: https://www.newgeology.us/Hudson%20Bay%20connection.PNG

CHICXULUB. Later, on the same page he shows that a similar thing likely occurred with Chicxulub. In this case the impact occurred on the surface of the Yucatan peninsula of Mexico, but that was adjacent to Africa at the time and the deeper part of the impact remained at the Cape Verde Islands while Mexico moved westward. See https://www.newgeology.us/S%20Am%20Afri ... ration.PNG and https://www.newgeology.us/Cape%20Verde% ... 0arrow.PNG and Chicxulub https://www.newgeology.us/Chic%20gray%20cleared.png and Cape Verde https://www.newgeology.us/Cape%20Verde%20crater.PNG which show that the two craters seem to fit together.

NADIR CRATER. At the bottom of the page, Mike mentions the smaller Nadir crater, which apparently occurred at the same time as the Chicxulub and Cape Verde impact. Another crater of the same time is called Boltysh, which is in or near Greece. Mike said, the Chicxulub (at the Cape Verde Islands) and Nadir impacts likely weakened the crust so that the split of the Americas from Africa went through them. See this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgzDAOUrlw8
And this is a Google map of the location: https://www.google.com/maps/place/9%C2% ... 5!4d-17.08

EXTREME WINDS. This may be the paper that Mike refereced https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abn3096 . It says "[The Nadir] impact would result in the instantaneous vaporization of a large quantity of water and sediment near the seabed (Figs. 4 and 5), releasing around 2 × 10^19 Joules of energy (equivalent to ~5000 megatons of TNT). A fireball with a radius of >5 km would be produced following the impact (Fig. 5), followed by an air blast with a maximum wind velocity of ~470 km per hour at 50 km from the impact site. [That's about 290 mi/hr at 30 miles distance. This article https://www.livescience.com/32179-how-s ... e-get.html says: 'Based on ocean and atmospheric conditions on Earth nowadays, the estimated maximum potential for hurricanes is about 190 mph (305 km/h), according to a 1998 calculation by Kerry Emanuel, a climatologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.'" So the Nadir impact would have produced winds much stronger than the strongest hurricane. I guess they would have covered some hundreds of square miles and they would have blown over any trees or animals in a large area.

The paper says further as follow. "Seismic waves from the impact would be equivalent to those generated by a magnitude ~7 Mw earthquake (46). The localized shaking of the intact seabed outside the crater would likely result in widespread fluidization of saturated sediments across a radius of several hundred kilometers, as inferred from seismic observations (Fig. 1A). Because of the greater velocity of the seismic wave, seismic shaking and liquefaction would occur first, before remobilization of seafloor sediments by tsunami waves. Seismic shaking of this magnitude would also likely result in substantial mass wasting of the margins of the Guinea Terrace, possibly triggering additional high-amplitude landslide tsunamis (47, 48). An expanded set of high-amplitude reflections at the Top Maastrichtian horizon in deep water areas (Fig. 1B) may indicate that these processes occurred around the Guinea Terrace at this time. As a result of the initial impact, a >2-km-high “ejecta curtain” (8) of water and sediment would form adjacent to the crater (Fig. 4). The collapse of this onto the adjacent water surface would result in the formation of a ~500-m rim wave tsunami, which would propagate away from the impact site at a rate of ~0.4 km/s."

I imagine it would have taken an hour or so for Pacific Ocean waters to flow into the crack that formed between the Americas and Africa and Europe. The Chicxulub impact would have caused an even stronger wind and earthquakes than the Nadir impact.

In my view, the impacts occurred during the late stages of the Great Flood, as Pangaea was breaking up due to the biggest impact of all, and before the Ice Age began.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Dec 18, 2022 5:12 pm

222901

CATASTROPHISM.COM SEARCH FOR ANKH

I wanted to see if there's much of interest about the Ankh.

ANKH AS MALE/FEMALE SYMBOL OF ANCIENT SATURN CONFIGURATION
The Ankh [Kronos]
__From: Kronos Vol. VII No. 3 (Spring 1982) Copyright (C) 1982 by Dwardu Cardona
__1. Saturn. I have recently shown why Velikovsky's identification of the Hindu god Shiva as a personification of the planet Jupiter should be abandoned in favor of an identification as Saturn.(1) I have also presented evidence which indicates that the original hermaphrodite deity of ancient man was not Venus, as Zvi Rix had earlier argued,(2) but, once again, Saturn.(3) As I have already pointed out, a good example of the androgynous Saturn can be seen in Indic images which depict Shiva, under the name Ardhanarisvara, as being half male and half female.(4) H. Baumann, in describing one of these images, drew attention to the sign depicted on the deity's genitals "which we can recognise as the ancient Egyptian-Coptic ankh hieroglyph, but in a horizontal position: [image]".(5) "The dividing line which we can draw between the masculine and female halves of the deity separates the T-shaped sign as male (right) from the oval as female (left)"(6) Thus, apart from the pictorial "pun" this ancient sign is here made to play, the depiction impels us to associate the ankh (also known as the crux ansata) with Saturn. Indeed, David Talbott has not only accepted it as such but has actually presented an excellent case for the identification of this symbol as a pictorial representation of Saturn's Polar Configuration.(7) Zvi Rix had earlier appropriated the ____ankh for Velikovsky's proto-planet.(8) In this he relied on Paul Ernst Jablonski(9) whom he has stating that nobody can deny that since ancient times the ____ankh had been a sign of the planet Venus.(10) Rix himself called the ____ankh "the picture of the Typhon-comet",(11) thereby again identifying it as a symbol of the Venerian proto-planet. In all this, however, Rix cited no direct evidence. On the contrary, the data he himself presented ties the ____ankh, not to Venus, but to Saturn. Consider: "An illustration of the Sunrise in Budge's version of The Book of the Dead ... [[which]] shows the emblem of life [image] which has arms that support the Disk of the Sun. (12) What Budge called the "Disk of the Sun" is, of course, the most common symbol of Ra and, as I have already indicated elsewhere,(13) Ra was one of the Egyptian anthropomorphs of the Saturnian Sun. Rix also supplied the following: "The author [Budge] then continues: In the papyrus of Ani we see the Sun's disk supported by a pair of arms which emerge from the sign of life [the ankh ]; this, in its turn, is supported by the pillar which symbolizes the tree-trunk which contained the dead body of Osiris."( 14) In a footnote, the editor of KRONOS added another quote from Budge plus a comment of his own: "The ankh rests upon the top of the Tet [column], which rests upon a reed mat. The Tet represents Osiris, who was, in one respect, the dead sun of yesterday.... Velikovsky identifies Osiris with the planet Saturn."(15) The symbolism in all this is unmistakable. Apart from the editor's reminder that Osiris is to be identified as Saturn, I have elsewhere identified "the dead sun of yesterday" as the same luminary.(16) The Tet (or Djed), as also the trunk of the Cosmic Tree wherein Osiris was entombed, symbolized the Saturnian appendage that both Talbott and I have already described.(17) In fact, all three depictions of the ankh described by Budge, and cited above, are perfect examples of the symbolism which derived directly from Saturn's Polar Configuration. What may not also be widely known is that Ankh was one of the names of Osiris(18) - and therefore one of the names of Saturn.
__2. Vela X In 1977, a new cosmogonic theory which is slowly gaining popularity burst upon the world. The brain child of George Michanowsky, it was the end result of many years of research. This theory is based on the remains of a supernova, in the form of a pulsar (PSR 0833-45) which, in 1968, was discovered by the Molonglo Radio Observatory in Australia. The pulsar was detected in the southern constellation Vela and thus received the popular designation Vela X.(19) According to Michanowsky, the stellar explosion which gave birth to this pulsar occurred "about 400 parsecs or roughly 1,300 light years from our solar system".(20) Frederic B. Jueneman has it as "some 1,500 light years away".(21) It must therefore have appeared for a period of "at least many months ... either as a gigantic light source by night or as a somewhat smaller second sun by day".(22) This celestial apparition, still according to Michanowsky, so awed ancient man that its psychological impact was responsible for" a quantum jump in human achievement".(23) "My research [wrote Michanowsky] indicates that this heavenly event actually became the source of the creation myths, the cosmological concepts, and the cultural traditions of much of our civilization. Directly or indirectly, it produced many of the archetypal figures we encounter again and again in the world's great religions and it was somehow associated with the beginning of writing and the rise of science. It triggered in the ancient people of Mesopotamia a powerful interest in the study of the starry heavens...." (24) It must be pointed out, however, that the occurrence has been dated to "sometime between 9000 and 4000 B.C.".( 25) From an astronomical point of view there is nothing, at present, which can narrow this gap. Michanowsky opted for the lower date on no particular evidence; he merely wished to bring it as close to the beginning of the Sumerian civilization as possible. But in 4000 B.C. copper smelting in Israel and Spain was already a going concern.(26) Earlier than that, around 4500 B.C., the Karanovo people of the Balkans had already reached a high level of technology.(27) Therefore, if Michanowsky expects archaeologists to concur with his view that it was the Vela X star burst which was responsible for man's forward leap in human achievement, he had better opt for an earlier date. With an estimated time stretching all the way back to 9000 B.C., he should have absolutely no problem accomplishing this. But then on what basis can his theory be tested? Actually, mining complexes in Swaziland have been carbon dated to such an impossible-sounding date as 26,000 B.C.(28) ... [[by very inaccurate]] radiocarbon dating.... For the present I merely wish to focus on his interpretation of the ankh because, after all, it is this subject that forms the basis of the present paper. The Sumerian connection with Vela X was discovered by Michanowsky in a reference which appears in a cuneiform list of star names: "The gigantic star of the god Ea in the constellation Vela of the god Ea."(29) As seen by the ancient peoples of Mesopotamia, Vela X would have appeared low on the horizon with "its luminous reflection on the waters of the Persian Gulf stretched like a shiny ribbon from [watery] horizon to [nearby] shore".(30) It is this superimposed tableau that Michanowsky saw symbolized in the ankh. "Michanowsky's study of Egyptian sources has led him to conclude that the ankh symbol is actually a stylized representation of the Vela star burst. The loop at the top of the ankh, he says, represents the actual star burst, the horizontal line symbolizes the southern horizon, and the vertical bottom line stands for the reflection the star made in the water in those days when the Persian Gulf extended much farther to the northwest than it does now."(31) From Egypt, one would think, Vela X might have been similarly viewed against the background of the Red Sea. Even so, Michanowsky is of the opinion that the ankh owes its origin, not to the Egyptians, but to the Sumerians. "No truly satisfactory explanation for the origin of ANKH' has ever been found among Egyptian sources. Michanowsky has now traced this expression to the Sumerian AN-HA, originally written HA-AN in cuneiform and meaning Fish of Heaven. This was one of the epithets of the god E-A who, as Michanowsky has explained in his book, was the southern sea and sky god with whom the Sumerians had identified the great supernova."(32) The god Ea has, however, already been recognized by de Santillana and von Dechend as the personification of the planet Saturn.(33) So also Enki,(34) whom even Michanowsky accepted as being the same as Ea.(35) Nor is this equation the sole contention of de Santillana and von Dechend. Julian Morgenstern had much earlier equated Enki/Ea with the Canaanite El;(36) and it has long been known that El was merely another name for Saturn.(37) In fact, Michanowsky's entire work is littered with purely Saturnian motifs but he did not seem to recognize this fact. Only once did he acknowledge a connection between Saturn and Vela X,(38) but he swept the implication aside as of no consequence. What Michanowsky is therefore obligated to explain is what had the Vela X starburst - and its supposed representation, the ankh - to do with the planet Saturn? Actually, it is safe to state that it would not have mattered much in which constellation Vela X, or any other starburst, might have occurred - most, if not all, of the constellations were directly or indirectly connected with Ea/Saturn and/or other Saturnian deities and motifs.(39)
__SUPERNOVA SEEN AS RETURN OF SATURN CONFIGURATION
[[Following is a previous related excerpt from Cardona at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =645#p6814 ]]
_Judging by the Sumerian record discovered by Michanowsky, the supernova of Vela X would have to have occurred sometime around 4000 B.C. In that much I agree. It would, however, have occurred too late to inaugurate the rise of civilization and its attendant religious beliefs. What it might have done is help to perpetuate both. As the appearance of a sudden bright light in the sky, it would have been enough to remind our ancestors of that more ancient burst of light that had heralded the appearance of their god and the beginning of the Golden Age.

COMMENT: If the Vela supernova occurred ca. 4,000 B.C., the Saturn configuration had apparently broken up before that, so the supernova, if it resembled what the myths described, could have given people hope that the Saturn System was returning and bringing back the Golden Age.

ANKH AS SATURN CONFIGURATION
Child of Saturn (Part VI) [Kronos]
_Almost identical to the "sign of Tanit" - at least in its basic form - is the Egyptian hieroglyph for the "living Ra",(5) a deity whom we have already seen identified as Saturn. So also with the symbol of the ____ankh, another Saturnian emblem,(6) especially in those cases where this crux ansata was supplied with additional uplifted human arms.(7) When John Gibson interviewed Talbott in 1977, he made it quite clear that this human-like appearance was, to him, the most noteworthy among the entire panoply of Saturnian symbols....

ANKH AS SATURN CRESCENT & PILLAR
Symbols of an Ancient Sky: Slide Presentation & Notes by David Talbott [Aeon]
_And what is the ____ankh but a stylized image of the pillar and crescent? [3 ] Or consider the famous eye of Horus. Couldn't it be the stylized spiraling eye of the goddess within Saturn, topped by the eyebrow crescent of Saturn at noon and the descending pupil, the axis mundi of Mars?

EGYPTIAN ANKH AS ATEN & TET PILLAR
The Crescent II [Books]
_While Egyptologists like to think of the two peaks as fixed on our earth, the Egyptians themselves knew that the great god "sailed" in the Khut or "revolved" round the Aten in the Khut. This is why the artists not only placed the two peaks in the revolving ship, but often depicted them in an inverted position above the Aten. The inverted peaks simultaneously mean "the above" and "concealment" or "obscurity." Together, the upright and inverted peaks represent both the full cycle of the day and the full circle (above and below) of the celestial kingdom. 150. Khut and ____Ankh, interchangeable symbols of the twin-peaked mountains a. b. 151. (a , b) Egyptian illustrations of the ____Ankh, with outstretched arms holding aloft the Aten. The ____Ankh issues from the Tet, the pillar of "stability". No Egyptian sign is more familiar to the modern world than the ____Ankh.

ANKH AS UNION OF OSIRIS & ISIS
The Swastika: The Earliest Known Symbol, and its Migrations by Thomas Wilson [Books]
_The Crux ansata (fig. 4) according to Egyptian mythology, was ____Ankh, the emblem of Egyptian CrossKa, the spiritual double of man, It was also said to indicate a union of Osiris and Isis (Crux Ansata) and was regarded as a symbol of the generative principle of nature.

EGYPTIAN/GREEK ANKH AS SYCAMORE TREE [Saturn & Polar Column]
Letters [SIS Workshop]
_May I be permitted to offer an origin? The word Danaus is a phonetic transcription [by the Greeks] of Ta-nu-it, the place of Nut's sycamore. In Egyptian mythology the goddess Nut gave birth to Osiris under a sycamore, and the heart wood of that tree was needed to make the ____Ankh, or life-giving cross. From the Third Dynasty on Egypt became the "Land of the Sycamores".

ANKH AS TREE OF LIFE & GODESSES
The Myth of the Goddess, Evolution of an image by Anne Baring and Jules Cashford [SIS Workshop]
_However she also surfaces as the two cherubim who cover the ark with their wings; it is remarked how similar these figures are to one from Syria, with the winged figures closely associated with the tree of life and guardian figures from Egypt whose wings shadow the ____ankh. The relationship of many biblical figures to their wives or sisters is similar to that between the Egyptian Osiris and Isis and other god-goddess pairs. Later there are the images of Sophia, or Hokhmah, and the Shekinah. The image of Sophia appears to have been repressed at the beginning of the Christian era, only to rise again....

ANKH AS KEY TO SATURNIAN PARADISE
Mythic Mountains by Isaac Vail [Books]
_Thus in Egypt when the Paradise chief conferred eternal life on the newly arrived soul he handed it the ____ankh, the symbol of Paradise, or Men the polar opening and the cross. This sign of the opening and the cross became the soul's passport and a permit to cross the boundary into Paradise.

EGYPTIAN ANKH AS SANCTIFY OR GIVE LIFE
KA [Books]
_Sacerdos is a priest. There are two kinds of priest, those who are in charge of ceremonies and rites, and those who interpret the utterances of prophets. The verb sacrare means both to consecrate and to doom to destruction. The poet Horace uses it with the meaning to immortalise in a poem'. The Egyptian symbol, the ____ankh means life, or to live. In Egyptian, an intransitive verb such as to live can have an s' prefixed to give it a causative force. Thus, sankh means to make to live. Here, I suggest, we have the origin of the Latin verb sancio.

EGYPTIAN ANKH AS ELECTICAL/ANIMATING WAND
Society News [SIS Workshop]
_Connections with the Egyptian word for life, ____ankh, were shown in the Latin sancio and indicate that the priests brought statues to life with their electrical tricks.

HEBREW ANKH AS ELECTRICAL/ANIMATING WAND
A Fire not Blown [Books]
_THE THREAD OF ARIADNE. There is a Jewish tradition that when the sons of Aaron were killed by the ark, thin threads of flame went from the ark to their nostrils. The Greek lin- is flax, and thread. Could its derivation be El, and in-, presence of El? The Egyptian ____ankh could be held and pointed at a person's nose in order to give him life. There may be a link here between the Egyptians and the Hebrews. The ____ankh, as an electrical symbol, was a device that could kill as well as give life.

GREEK ANKH AS TYPHON COMET
Forum [SIS Review]
_It is a fact that the optic area is more developed, that it possesses more substance (ganglia) than the remaining subcortical centres preserving remembrances received through acoustic and other sensory stimuli. It appears, therefore, that optic devices play the prominent role in our mental processes, to the exception of other means of communication. However, messages surfacing from the unconscious to the conscious undergo distortion as a result of the filtrating effects of censorship and repression. Such a process leads to misunderstandings and misrepresentations, and does not lend itself to an adequate reading of the past. This is the case with hieroglyphs, which originally pictured things according to their true form and emotional impact. The original meaning was substantially modified and moderated when terror-stricken humanity managed to analogise these catastrophe-laden prime ideograms to similar-sounding phonetic writings and spellings of a less frightful character and of much later development. Defence mechanisms which avoid issues prone to arouse fear and prefer more harmless associations are the rule in man's ages-old and still continuing manoeuvres for self-deception. Thus, the ____ankh, at source the picture of the Typhon-comet, became a sign for "life" (= ____ankh), because of syllabic equivalency. Finally it is now considered to be the portrait of a sandal-strap (necessarily unisex since sandal-straps are by nature never bisex).

ANKH AS COMET, TERROR & CASTRATION FEAR [Saturn appeared to be castrated]
The Uses of Language [Books]
_Isis-Athena and Typhon-Hephaestus are recalled unconsciously in the symbol of the ____ankh, both as comets and as dismembered comets. It then recalls terror and can join with the castration fear, so that the phallic symbol and the astronomical symbol unite in a syllable that is both pornographic and anxiety-causing.

AMERICAN ANKH AS POLAR COLUMN
Spall Ankh in eastern Wyoming [SIS Internet Digest]
__From: SIS Internet Digest 2000:2 (Dec 2000) Michael Armstrong, Thu, 19 Oct 2000 This remarkable figure portraying a form of the ____Ankh, the Polar column, mistakenly called "The Man of The Mountains", was found on the almost insurmountable slope of a rocky hill in "The Spanish Diggings" area near Rawhide Buttes, a miniature mountain range of eastern Wyoming. The figure was laid out in an area "where it was less precipitous than above or below. It was fifty-five feet long and about eight feet wide, the body looking not unlike a stone walk.

AMERICAN ANKH AS COMET VENUS
Notes on the Androgynous Comet [SIS Review]
_Has any undistorted evidence survived which would enable us to read the minds of the ancients? The answer is not solely supplied by the Aranda tribe, whose tradition still revives the flaming globe connected with the leaping tail as an act of dalliance, but is also furnished by the hieroglyph (image: ____ankh), explained by Nork (22) as symbolising the joining of the male (+) with the female (o) generative power - Aphrodite sive Aphroditos. The combination of male and female procreational forces can only be conceived in a comet.

AMERICAN ANKH AS TREE & SATURN CONFIGURATION
Maya Cosmos: A Saturnian Interpretation (Part II) [Aeon]
_One should not be surprised with that since the Saturnian configuration provided many kinds of crosses. At the radiant Venus stage, a four-armed cross appeared on the disk of Saturn. [46] Saturn, with its rings and crescent at the top of the polar column, could look like a T cross or ____ankh. Later still, when Venus and Mars descended towards Earth, with interplanetary material twisting about, a tree-like structure seems to have appeared. Today, in the Yucatan, crosses are usually painted green and called "Our Mother."

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