Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

[JP Michael]

9299
That's based on the reasoning that the Flood deposited almost all of the sedimentary rock on the continents and ocean floors and that glaciation and the Younger Dryas impacts, which Cardona associated with the main Saturn flare-up, occurred on top of the sedimentary rock strata.

This is decent reasoning. I wouldn't mind seeing some detailed citations of the same when you get a chance. I'm of the similar mind that most of the major events occurred just prior to, during, and near the end of, the Deluge.

Actually, a greater Saturn flare-up must have occurred before the Great Flood, which produced the comets and other debris that rained down onto Earth during the Flood and is found throughout much of the sedimentary rock record, along with many of the fossils. So there were likely 2 or more Saturn flare-ups over the time period of about 4,500 to 4,200 years ago. And the breakup of the Saturn system, where Earth, Mars, Venus and possibly some large moons drifted away from Saturn, must have occurred within that time period.

The only possible flaw is whether some of the lower sedimentary layers, that is, those deposited at the onset of the flood, were also a result of Saturn's first flare-up. Obviously it is difficult, if not impossible, to fully explore deeper sedimentary layers for meteoric and/or cometary debris. It is also possible that Saturn issued significant major flares during the whole 1 year Deluge period, and quietened significantly thereafter.

I think it possible that Saturn may have spluttered a few final, minor flares in the years following the Deluge when humanity was beginning the process of resettlement of the new earth. This was the period of many creation myths, as Marinus van der Sluijs goes to pains to collate and thematically record.[1] The most central of these is the formation, connection, transformation and disintegration of the axis mundi connecting heaven to earth, and the hundreds of variations of this theme. If there is any flaws in van der Sluijs' methodology, it is his sparse treatment of the planets as specific harbingers of planetary catastrophe, but it may be he will treat this issue at more length in his newer publications.[2]

[1] Marinus van der Sluijs, Traditional Cosmology. 6 Volumes. London: All-Round Publications, 2011-2019. Volume one narrates most of the formation-themed myths.
[2] Marinus van der Sluijs, On the Origin of Myths in Catastrophic Experience. Vancouver: All-Round Publications, 2019. At the moment, only volume 1 of this series has been sent to the printing press.

[Lloyd]

9556

THREAD TOPICS SUMMARY/INDEX
https://futureschool.boards.net/post/69/thread

I don't have the middle pages of this thread indexed yet, but the rest are, as well as the original ten pages of the thread from the old Forum.

[Lloyd]

9743

I finished the thread summary.

ASTEROID IMPACT DURING GREAT FLOOD

This is on a bit of a tangent from my recent work here, re cometary/flare-up debris falls on Earth. I consider the following search results to relate mainly to the asteroid impact that Mike Fischer determined likely impacted the former supercontinent just east of Africa, causing it to split up and causing rapid continental drift. See http://NewGeology.us. Some of the results may refer to other cataclysms in recent millennia. The boulder bed etc mentioned below probably isn't related, but likely occurred in the same timeframe. Radiolaria, also called Radiozoa, are protozoa of diameter 0.1–0.2 mm that produce intricate mineral skeletons.

Http://Catastrophism.com search results for
"STREWN FIELD"

1. Monitor [SIS C&C Workshop]
_Ring System Around the Earth"( Nature 285, 309-11), J. O'Keefe postulates that a severe climatic event producing severe winters (yet leaving summers unaffected) at the end of the Eocene Period was caused by a ring system of tektite and other debris being formed around the Earth. The basis for his paper seems to be another by B.P. Glass et al.( Lunar Planetary Science 10, 434-6, 1979) in which the extinction of Radiolaria at the end of the Eocene is correlated with a huge ____strewn field of tektites and microtektites- e.g. by analysis of ocean bed core samples. The field covers at least half the globe and includes N. America, the Caribbean, central Pacific and Indian Oceans. As well as O'Keefe's rather exotic ring system theory, the data provides other scenarios and a possible Velikovskian interpretation too. The visit of a rather large comet to Earth could provide all the necessary requirements to fit these data - the heat and light shield, the source of the tektites....

2. Tektite Mysteries [Science Frontiers Website]
_By general agreement, tekites are attributed to meteoric or cometary impacts that melt terrestrial rocks and splash liquid droplets into the atmosphere. There they are shaped by aerodynamic forces and solidify. This scenario is all very reasonable, but some nagging problems remain. Where-o-where is that crater? 770,000 years ago, a huge meteor hit somewhere on earth and strewed an immense batch of tektites and microtektites over fully 10% of our planet's surface (about 5 x 10^7 square kilometers). This is called the "Australasian ____strewn field." Such a recent cataclysm must have left a large and inescapable crater somewhere. The problem is that no one has yet found it. [[Mike Fischer did]] (Ref. 1) Many lines of evidence suggest that the missing crater is in Indochina. C.C. Schnetzler and J.F. McHone located four likely structures in Laos from Landsat images. However, visits to these areas found no evidence of an impact. (Ref. 2) So, this mystery persists. How were the Muong Nong tektites formed?

3. The Stealth Catastrophe [Science Frontiers Website]
_Science Frontiers ONLINE No. 136: JUL-AUG 2001
_Recently, as geologists reckon time -- only 800,000 years ago -- Australia, Southeast Asia, and the eastern Indian Ocean were bombarded by untold numbers of small, oddly shaped stones called "tektites." New finds of tektites have expanded the ____strewn field of these Australasian tektites to include part of China. It now appears that about 30% of the earth's area was subjected to this stony bombardment. It is inescapable that the Australasian-tektite fall was a major event in the earth's history. But where are other signs of this great catastrophe? The present consensus holds that the Australasian tektites originated when a large celestial body slammed into our planet somewhere in Southeast Asia. The energy of the impact splashed droplets of molten rock into the atmosphere, where they were shaped aerodynamically and then fell as tektites. The extent of the immense Australasian-tektite ____strewn field implies a hard-to-miss crater about 100 kilometers in diameter....

4. Monitor [SIS C&C Review]
_Whence tektites? Science Frontiers No. 115, Jan-Feb 98, p. 3 Tektites are small glassy droplets assumed to be the remains of molten rock from impact catastrophes. A huge area of them, called the Australasian ____strewn field, dates from 770,000 years ago, but so far no relevant crater has been found.

6. Giant impact-wave deposit along u.s. east coast [Science Frontiers Website]
_... North Carolina to Maryland and also into Chesapeake Bay, deep-sea drillers have charted the Exmore Boulder Bed. No minor deposit this; it is is over 60 meters thick in places and covers more than 15,000 square kilometers. In the bed are found boulders (up to 2 meters in diameter), cobbles, pebbles, and traces of tektite glass and shocked quartz. The youngest microfossils date from the Eocene, and argon dating of the ejecta yield a date of 35.5 million years, which correlates with the North American tektite ____strewn field. C.W. Poag et al interpret this boulder bed as follows: "On the basis of its unusual characteristics and its stratigraphic equivalence to a layer of impact ejecta at Deep Sea Drilling Project (DSDP) Site 612 (New Jersey continental slope), we postulate that this boulder bed was formed by a powerful bolide-generated wave train that scoured the ancient inner shelf and coastal plain of southeastern Virginia. The most promising candidate for the bolide impact site (identified on seismic reflection profiles) is 40 km north-northwest of DSDP Site....

7. The Earth's Ring [Science Frontiers Website]
_Science Frontiers ONLINE No. 12: Fall 1980
_The most profound climatic event of the Tertiary was the terminal Eocene event 34 million years ago. The sudden change in the abundance of forest plants suggests that the winters became much more severe while the summers remained about the same. At about the same time, the radiolaria were devastated by some sort of disaster. This was also the time when the North American tektite ____strewn field was deposited -- a field that stretches halfway around the world. John O'Keefe hypothesizes that some of the tektites and microtektites that rained down during this period missed the earth and went into orbit around it, forming an opaque Saturn-like ring. This ring might have lasted a million years or more; and its shadow could have caused the extrasevere winters postulated from botanical data. (O'Keefe, John A.; "The Terminal Eocene Event; Formation of a Ring System around the Earth," Nature, 285:309....

8. Australasian tektites coughed up by a moon of jupiter? [Science Frontiers Website]
_... insisted on their 700,000-year figure; the former said "maybe so" but the tektites are still found only in very young, superficial sediments. The point here is that time-of-solidification may not be the same as time-of-fall. At stake is the prevailing theory, now dogmatically proclaimed, that tektites are created when a large asteroid impacts the earth, ejecting molten droplets of rock which shower back to earth as solidified tektites. No one has ever found a suitably large crater( 200 miles in diameter) [[Mike Fischer did]] assignable to the Australasian tektite ____strewn field. Nevertheless, the impact model prevails; and the young geological age of the tektites is dismissed as erroneous. A Soviet scientist, E.P. Izokh, has recently proposed a radically different scenario that would produce both the young and old dates. If a moon, or Jupiter, or some similar body, explosively ejected the glassy tektites, embedded in an icy cometary body some 700,000 years ago, the tektites could, after cruising through space for millenia, have fallen to earth recently and over a wide area....

9. Heavy Bombardment of Southeast Asia 700,000 Years Ago [Science Frontiers Website]
_These irregular chunks of solidified melt could not have traveled great distances like their streamlined brothers. They lie at most only a few crater diameters from their parent craters. Since layered tektites are found over an area 800 x 1140 kilometers in extent, and they are not far-travelers, Southeast Asia must have been peppered with many small cosmic projectiles 700,000 years ago (the disputed age of the event). Whereas geologists have been searching diligently for a single huge crater (perhaps 100 kilometers in diameter) to explain the Australasia ____strewn field, they should be looking for many 1-kilometer craters. This scenario is radically different from mainstream thinking about this great event in earth history. (Wasson, John T.; "Layered Tektites: A Multiple Impact Origin for the Australasian Tektites," Journal of Geophysical Research, 102:95, 1991.) Reference. For more on tektites, see ESM3 in the catalog Neglected Geological Anomalies. For details, visit: here. From Science Frontiers #78, NOV-DEC 1991.© 1991-2000....

10. THE LATELY TORTURED EARTH: PART II: EXOTERRESTRIAL DROPS: 8.Falling Dust and Stone [Quantavolution Website]
_... place melted by impact into glass. Loess has a chemical composition very much like the tektites, as I have mentioned above. Aerial explosions created innumerable small glass blobs that fell to Earth. The investigators generally agree that tektites are earth-like and moon-like in composition. Probably, the loess and tektites arrived within the same time span after passing into the upper atmosphere following their explosion from the Earth. Either a passing large body exploded the Earth's crust to make them or a meteoroid impact did the job. John O'Keefe links the North American ____strewn field of tektite and microtektite falls with the terminal Eocene (Tertiary) event, when radical climatic change can be perceived in floral abundances and radiolaria were devastated [33. His theory calls for the tektites to assume, before final descent, a ring-like structure around the Earth. The ring might have lasted a million years and cast a blighting shadow over the biosphere. It is apparent here, once more, that earth scientists are becoming ever more daring in their suggestions of mechanisms to satisfy the resultant state of geological facts.

Search results for
ERRATICS, ERRATIC BOULDERS

Erratics are attributed to glaciation, but likely involved a Great Flood or Tidal Waves. This is more related to what I've been working on.

1. Quartered At Yale [Kronos]
[[Velikovsky said]] I received a letter from one of my readers who referred to the problem of ____erratic boulders. "What you have to say about glaciation may help to explain some of the difficulties in the glacial theory. On Macquarie Island south of New Zealand, for instance, ____erratic boulders from the western coast were carried to the eastern coast to a 750 feet higher elevation. By the glacial theory, it is hard to explain why the glacier should have come from one side, instead of radiating from the center, and why the ____erratics were lifted."

3. Chapter VII: The Earth [The Age of Velikovsky] [The Age of Velikovsky] [Books]
_In addition to mixed plant debris from different botanical zones, some coal contains fossils of marine organisms which, when living, required vastly different environments. ____Erratic boulders and chunks of iron are also found in coal seams. These characteristics encouraged the suggestion that some materials washed down rivers and stacked up in bends to form coal. This overcomes many of the peat-bog problems, but does not explain the presence of ocean-dwelling species and the fact that deep sea crinoids and clear-water ocean corals often alternate with coal seams in thick beds. The suggestion of Velikovsky was as follows: "Forests burned, a hurricane uprooted them, and a tidal wave or succession of tidal waves coming from the sea....

4. Scientific Evidence for A Major World Catastrophe About 11,500 Years Ago: A Preliminary Selection [SIS C&C Review]
_In the order presented today, they are: The 'Drift' ____Erratic boulders Crustal dislocation Premature extinction Unnatural congregations Fast 'Blitzschnell' The Metal Factor Manganese nodules All the material discussed concerns an event which, on the basis of an average of over nine hundred radiocarbon dates, occurred approximately 11,500 years ago. It also indicates that the Ice Age, so beloved of orthodoxy, almost certainly never existed, or did so only as a more recent interlude of relatively brief duration. The cause of this event is merely hinted at. A full exposition of both it and its probable sequential development is....

5. Evidence for the Marine Deposition of Coal [SIS C&C Review]
_The allochthonous ("from another soil") theory preferred by catastrophists seeks to explain the evidence of sudden deposition (e.g. fossilised leaves, insects and animals in coal seams), mixed flora and fauna, the immense amounts of vegetation required to form even a thin coal seam, split (bifurcating) seams, ____erratic boulders found in coal, "coal balls" of matted plant and animal remains (sometimes including marine fauna such as sponges, molluscs and corals) and many other features that remain puzzling if the autochthonous theory is correct.

6. C&C Review 1995 Special Issue (Volume XVII): Contents [SIS C&C Review]
_D S Allan and J B Delair: Scientific Evidence For A Major World Catastrophe About 11,500 Years Ago 41
_The authors of When The Earth Nearly Died present the evidence: ____erratic boulders, animal and plant remains in the Arctic 'muck' and deep caves and nodules of metal ores on the ocean floor.

9. Opening the Floodgates [SIS C&C Workshop]
_In England, William Buckland fought a rearguard action in support of a single major Flood, whilst others such as Adam Sedgwick and William Daniel Conybeare found the evidence for multiple cataclysms overwhelming. All were impressed by the large ____erratic boulders found scattered over much of Britain, Europe and North America, and by the deposits of mixed and unsorted sediments which lay as a mantle in northern regions. William Hopkins and William Whewell developed theories of tidal waves from the scenario of Elie de Beaumont to explain the origin of these features. Eventually Buckland joined those who saw evidence for several major floods. However, within a few years, in the middle of the nineteenth century, catastrophic diluvialism was dormant if not dead....

15. On Mankind in Amnesia [Velikovsky Archive Website]
_It can be claimed that ____erratic boulders were moved by ice-cover, but what caused the ice-cover to form? And how did they come to be high in the mountains, and how is it that they are found in the tropics?

1. Mythic Ireland, by Michael Dames [SIS C&C Review]
_Finn for instance, was lured to the bruiden every November (a region in the sky). Bruiden tales were traditionally recited during November and appear to reflect a phenomenon of nature humanised by warrior society. Part 5 turns to Mide= the centre of Ireland and its presumed connection with the 'omphalos' stone. This is specifically the Hill of Uisneach in Co. Westmeath which has a large conical boulder on its SW flank, the Aill na Mireann (bright Mary or stone of the sea), in actuality a glacial ____erratic (a fissured limestone boulder). In the Yellow Book of Lecan (early medieval date) the god Fintan (a salmon) son of the ocean, returns to the stone and says, 'it is a long time since I drank a drink of the flood over the navel of Uisneach'. This implies that a flood once swept inland as far as West Meath, a gigantic tidal wave (shades of Velikovsky).

2. The Stone Enigmas Of New England [Science Frontiers Website]
_Beginning with the maze of walls, courtyards, and chambers that characterize New Hampshire's Mystery Hill site, M.F. Doran and B.H. Kunnecke review the various types of anomalous stone structures found in northeastern North America. Three major classes are recognized: Covered passageways up to 25 feet in length and analogous to Cornish fogous. Beehive chambers, such as the 10-foot-high chamber at Upton, Massachusetts. Dolmen-like constructions, as exemplified by the 60-ton "balancing boulder at North Salem, New York. Termed a "glacial ____erratic" by most, the North Salem stone seems distinctly unlike most ____erratics and more like some European dolmens.

See these maps of ERRATICS.
Glacial Erratics of North America (WA, AB, IA, NewEngland)
external-preview.redd.it/KDqRat6m7WsEVjJKPoLA9v7swWupEiTU-IAP-GrEjN0.jpg?auto=webp&s=df7ae933f6f99b47dc68c33adf2ba93adafd859a

Some erratic boulder trains (Ruby Range, AK; Athabasca Valley, BC; Snake Butte, MT; 3>>UK; Tierra del Fuego; 3>>ANT)
www.researchgate.net/figure/Map-showing ... _266321104

[Lloyd]

MAPS OF ERRATICS AGAIN

Here are those two links again (since one didn't work) for maps of erratic boulders (supposedly carried by glaciers, but probably carried by tidal waves and/or by icebergs on tidal waves; some erratics look like they would have had to be carried by ice on tidal waves or flood waters, because they're not rounded at all, but how they got on top of the ice is uncertain. Glaciers can cause erratics to break loose from mountainsides and fall onto the glacier, but tidal waves flowing over mountain glaciers might also cause that. You can do a web search for erratic boulders under Images to see what you think).
1. http://external-preview.redd.it/KDqRat6 ... 3adafd859a
2. http://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map- ... _266321104

The large erratic rock mass in the second pic on the webpage at this link https://nsidc.org/cryosphere/glaciers/g ... atics.html looks like neither a flood/tsunami or a glacier could have accomplished alone. It would surely have crumbled into small pieces by either process. But a tidal wave or glacier could have toppled the rock mass from a mountainside onto an ice sheet and flood waters could have quickly carried that part of the ice sheet to the location shown in Canada. Right? It's still unclear though how the rock mass strata could have remained horizontal after all of that.

Maybe this paper has some helpful info: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 5X14004929

[Lloyd]

9938

ERRATIC MEGABLOCK MYSTERY SOLVED

Glacial erratic
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_erratic

Large erratics consisting of slabs of bedrock that have been lifted and transported by glacier ice to subsequently be stranded above thin glacial or fluvioglacial deposits are referred to as glacial floes, rafts (schollen) or erratic megablocks. Erratic megablocks have typical length to thickness ratios on the order of 100 to 1. These megablocks may be found partially exposed or completely buried by till and are clearly allochthonus, since they overlay glacial till. Megablocks can be so large that they are mistaken for bedrock until underlying glacial or fluvial sediments are identified by drilling or excavation. Such erratic megablocks greater than 1 square kilometre (250 acres) in area and 30 metres (98 ft) in thickness can be found on the Canadian Prairies, Poland, England, Denmark and Sweden. One erratic megablock located in Saskatchewan is 30 by 38 kilometres (19 mi × 24 mi) (and up to 100 metres or 330 feet thick). Their sources can be identified by locating the bedrock from which they were separated; several rafts from Poland and Alberta were determined to have been transported over 300 kilometres (190 mi) from their source.[10]

Bedrock Rafts and Megablocks in the Drift
https://creationconcept.info/BR/brr.html
[[At least some links in this paper don't work.]]

_Bedrock rafts in the drift, or megablocks, (a.k.a. glaciotectonic features) are slabs of bedrock resting on layers of drift, often buried by other drift. Some are quite extensive, covering areas of up to several hundreds of km2. ... they are disconcerting or enigmatic in therms of a glacial interpretation, because extensive, thin rock slabs would readily break up if they were subjected to the forces required for transportation [[on glacial ice or an ice sheet]]. A much simpler explanation is available and is proposed below.
_... Many examples of large scale megablocks or bedrock rafts are mapped in the Quaternary Geologic Map of the Winnipeg 4° x 6° Quadrangle. A large concealed bedrock raft in Saskatchewan, with dimensions about 30 km x 38 km, located at 102°W, 50°50'N, is indicated on the western edge of the map.

QUATERNARY GEOLOGIC MAP OF THE WINNIPEG QUADRANGLE, UNITED STATES AND CANADA
https://pubs.usgs.gov/imap/i-1420/nm-14 ... screen.pdf
..... CONCEALED GLACIOTECTONIC RAFT OR “MEGABLOCK”
Mapped only at the western edge of the quadrangle, in Saskatchewan
[[The megablock is indicated by an oval-shaped dotted line on the left side of the map between 50 and 51 degrees north latitude.
The map also shows eskers and other glacial features.]]

Apparently, uniformitarian geologists have assumed that such megablocks were frozen to the bottoms of ice sheets and carried along and dropped on glacial till etc. But the above paper suggests that the till formed under each block of bedrock as a weakly cemented rock stratum disintegrated into till etc as the Great Flood was receding. So the megablocks don't seem to be a real mystery. But large erratic boulders do seem to be hard to explain, i.e. esp. when the boulder is a block of bedrock that is fractured and the strata are horizontal like that shown in my previous post.

ERRATIC BOULDERS

This does not seem to explain the large erratic boulders as I explained in a recent post above.
Rock Glaciers
https://geology.com/articles/rock-glacier/

Here's my current take on erratic boulders. The North American erratic boulders are most numerous in New England, as seen in a map in my previous post, and are scattered in a wide curvy line mostly westward across the continent, several in Iowa and several in Alberta and several in Washington on the west coast. That line was apparently where the edge of the post-flood ice sheet was located. Some decades or centuries after the Great Flood the ice sheet had formed and then something like a Saturn flare-up or comet impacts caused a widescale conflagration and rapid melting of the ice sheet and flooding. Cardona said a flare-up would have suddenly slowed down Earth's rotation, which would have caused the oceans to flow over the continents in huge tidal waves. If we find out where the erratic boulders landed and where they originated, we can find out which directions the tidal waves moved. They would have lifted up the ice sheet and wherever the sheet crashed into mountains, large boulders could have come loose and fallen onto the ice sheet and traveled with the tidal wave some distance where the ice sheet landed and then melted away under them. How's that?

The second image here is a map of Alberta that shows the direction of glacial flow based on where erratics landed. The glacial flow was probably a flooded ice sheet flow. http://www3.telus.net/lejgeology/etrain ... n%20et.htm

[Lloyd]

ALBERTA ERRATICS TRAIN FLOW

Re the previous post, this article has a map that shows where the erratics train (line of boulders) came from and reasons how the flows occurred:
http://www3.telus.net/lejgeology/etrain ... ratics.htm

Dr. Stalker eliminated the Canadian Shield [to the east] as a source because the erratics would had to have been plucked from bedrock along the base of several kilometres [deep] glacial ice and transported more than a thousand kilometres beneath the sliding, grinding ice sheet. ... Boulders transported along the base of glaciers are typically covered with scratches, called striations, or are polished and rounded and streamline in shape. The Foothill erratics almost entirely lack striations. They are also cut by cracks called joints. ... He concluded that they had to have been transported on or near the surface of glacier ice. ... The east flowing mountain glacier transporting the erratics joined the south flowing Laurentide ice thus confining it between the western edge of the Laurentide ice sheet and the Foothills. The glacier carrying the erratics remained a comparatively narrow ribbon of ice as it traversed the eastern edge of the Foothills. This explained the narrowness of the erratics train and the small differences between the highest and lowest erratics at any latitude.

In this case it looks like a rapidly melting section of ice sheet in the Rockies somehow collected a large number of boulders from a mountain pass and the rapidly melting Laurentide ice sheet flowing south caused them to form a north-south line. Maybe a tidal wave from the west knocked the boulders onto the section of ice sheet at the mountain pass.

[Lloyd]

10,169

THREAD INDEX
https://futureschool.boards.net/post/69/thread
PS, also see the last search result (#33) in this post https://futureschool.boards.net/post/50/thread for interesting info on gigantism and longevity in the superior climatic conditions on Earth before the Younger Dryas event as well as before the Great Flood.

COMETARY DEBRIS / SATURN FLARE-UPS PARTIAL SUMMARY

At this post https://futureschool.boards.net/post/67/thread I listed search results from Catastrophism.com for "cometary debris". The following is about the best info I can get out of all of those results. My comments are in blue.

IN SATURN MYTH
8. The Ship of Heaven [Aeon Journal]
_In a future essay, I will take up the rayed enclosure in detail and intend to show that while, in the illustrated phase of the polar configuration, the lines tend to radiate from the band, there were apparently occasions in which they were directed inward, the contrasting appearances being considered as outbreathings and inbreathings of the central sun. I will also have much to say on the origin of the crescent-enclosure and the cometary ____debris from which the band was constituted. It will be shown that a primary mythological interpretation of this radiating gas or dust was as hair (the cometary symbol par excellence), a pervasive image bearing directly on the concept of the ship's oars. In view of the ship's relationship to this cometary band, the unique implication of the model is that these radiating streams were also viewed as oars of the sun god's boat.

MYTH OF CHAOS HORDES
30. Thoth Vol. IV, No 13 Aug 31, 2000 [Thoth Website]
_From the Norse Valkyries to the Greek Erinyes, from the Babylonian Pazuzu-demons to the Egyptian "Fiends of Set," every culture remembered the onslaught of these chaos demons, moving across the heavens as a sky-darkening cloud and ushering in the cosmic night. In their earliest expressions, they do not just announce the primeval catastrophe, they ARE the catastrophe. The chaos hordes signify the cometary ____debris fields and gas or dust clouds particularly prominent in the unstable phases of the [[Saturn System]] configuration. Mythically, they are to retinues of the goddess and hero in their terrible aspects, while also giving shape to the bodies of these monsters. And yet, in the phases of stability, they become the raw material of creation itself, giving form to a luminous habitation in the heavens. Both the polar column and the polar enclosure are constituted from this raw material, which the Egyptians called the "primeval matter"....

I concluded tentatively that the Saturn Configuration and Saturn Flare-ups existed about 4,500 years ago to about 4,200 years ago, during the time from the Great Flood till the Younger Dryas impacts. The history of the configuration before the Great Flood would be hard to determine at this point. It likely existed for at least a few centuries before the Flood, but the Younger Dryas event probably marked the end of the Saturn system when it broke up and the planets, Venus, Mars and Earth, moved out of the Saturn system into their present orbits. It seems to make the most sense that the Saturn system reached perihelion at about the Earth's orbit when the Earth moved out of the system. Mars may have moved out first, then Earth and finally Venus. They may have had cataclysmic encounters in the process. After Saturn reached perihelion it would have moved back to its aphelion at its present orbit. Each planet could have been slowed down by interplanetary dust that caused each orbit to circularize. The Saturn system's place of origin cannot be well speculated on by me at present: it could have had an elliptical orbit for a long or short time, or have come from outside the solar system.

ELECTRIC FLOW THROUGH THE ATMOSPHERE
26. The Chicago Fire (3) [Thunderbolts Website]
_In the above reports, for example, consider the following: Whirlwind of flame or “perfect tornado”. Tornadoes are a slow electric discharge phenomenon. The ionized trails of cometary ____debris, descending through the ionosphere to the lower atmosphere, produces "lightning conductors" to allow various forms of "megalightning" to descend to the ground. One of the manifestations of a powerful direct discharge between the ionosphere and the Earth could well be a tornado, in which the usual swift lightning strike is replaced by a slower discharge. Powerful electromagnetic forces generate a devastating" charge sheath vortex" that slows the discharge while spreading the devastation on Earth.

DATING A MAJOR COMETARY DEBRIS ENCOUNTER
22. Some Comments on "Still Facing Many Problems" (Vox Populi) [Kronos]
_Recently, Clube(3) reviewed the work which he and Napier did in The Cosmic Serpent. He noted that they had reconstructed a collision of the Earth with cometary ____debris about 2500 B.C. However, the absence of any major disruption in the 5400 year tree ring sequence, nor a similar break in the "quiescent-looking regime" ... of the 10,000 year old ice cores, suggests that a "1000 megaton catastrophe" is seemingly as unlikely as any of Velikovsky's.

In reality the tree ring sequence and the ice core sequence are very likely not that old.

TREE RING EVIDENCE
24. Catastrophes: the Diluvial Evidence [SIS C&C Review]
_64. M.A. Courty, 'The soil record of an exceptional event at 4000 BP in the Middle East', in Peiser, Palmer& Bailey (eds.) op. cit. [28, pp. 93-108.
_65. M.G.L. Baillie, 'Hints that cometary ____debris played some role in several tree-ring dated environmental downturns in the Bronze Age', in Peiser, Palmer & Bailey (eds.) op. cit. [28, pp. 109-116; M. Baillie, Exodus to Arthur, Batsford, London, 1999.

TUNGUSKA EVIDENCE
23. Monitor [SIS C&C Review]
_CATASTROPHES
_Tunguska replay Discover Sept. 96, pp. 60-71, Science Frontiers 102, Nov-Dec 95, pp. 1 and 3
_The latest discoveries from the area of the mysterious event in Tunguska reinforce the theory that it was caused by a body from space which exploded several miles up. Tiny particles with an extraterrestrial signature have been found embedded in resin in nearby trees. They appear to have been melted and are likely to have come directly from the parent body. There is still no consensus as to whether this was a stony meteorite, a chondritic meteorite or even a comet. The date of the explosion being June, there is a strong possibility that it was material from the Taurid [[stream]] of cometary ____debris.

The above offers some clues about where to look for conclusive evidence for what is and is not cometary debris in Earth's stratigraphic rock record etc. What I'm calling cometary debris may be indirectly from Saturn flare-ups or directly from them, or maybe neither. Microscopic evidence is what may produce the most reasonable conclusions. Younger Dryas research has started finding such evidence. Other research has too, I presume. I guess that may be what I need to explore next.

[Lloyd]

I'm adding a second post here today.
PRIMORDIAL STAR
(PS = Primordial Star; p. = page)
The following are excerpts from Cardona's book, Primordial Star. My comments are in blue.

PS p.49 COMETARY CARBON
That carbon and hydrocarbons form part of the constituents of comets is now an accepted tenet of astronomy.8
..8 F. G. Graham, "Comets in Perspective: What the Comet Halley Probes Tell Us," HORUS 11:2 (Summer 1986), p. 10.

PS p.50 CARBON FROM STARS
_(I)n our own scheme carbon would have been laid on Earth in ages prior to the proto-Saturnian system's entry into the Sun's domain....
_[The star] CW Leonis has been calculated to eject "trillions of tons of carbon monoxide molecules into space every second."5 And this, as Sun Kwok reports, "is only one of many thousands of other similar stars 'polluting' the Milky Way Galaxy....
..4 S. Kwok, op. cit., p. 48.
..5 Ibid.
PS p.51
_[T]he "incredibly high ejection rates" of these and other [hydrocarbon] molecules from such stars has been interpreted to mean that "they are synthesized and replenished on time scales of just a few hundred years.''2 Moreover, intense ultraviolet radiation from the parent star is held responsible for reorganizing the original chemical structures into aromatic substances.3

PS p.51 COMPOSITION OF COAL
_(S)cientists from the Atomic Energy of France [came] to realize that the aromatic structure of these galactic compounds compares quite well with that of coal. "Coal is composed of a mixture of aromatic rings and aliphatic chains" ... (K)erogens [are] insoluble, tar-like, organic compounds distributed in rocks - which are thought to be the likely source of fluid hydrocarbons such as oil.4
..2 Ibid., p. 48 (emphasis added).
..3 Ibid., p. 49.
..4 Ibid.
PS p.52
_(C)oal would have evolved from kerogen "through the natural loss of hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen." Petroleum, in fact, is often found in "sedimentary rocks rich in kerogen and is believed to simply degrade from kerogen over time."1

PS p.52 RECURRENT DEPOSITIONS
_As we have seen, the evidence that comes our way through coal seams not only calls for catastrophic measures, but recurring ones at that. Thus, if this theorized organic matter fell to Earth it would have to have fallen periodically. We would not otherwise find coal in stratified seams sandwiched between strata of uncarbonized material.
..1 Ibid.

COMMENT: While Cardona apparently was not aware that the sedimentary rock strata must have been deposited over several months during the Great Flood, this would mean that the depositions occurred several times during the Great Flood, rather than over long time periods.

PS p.54 DWARF STARS WITH CARBON
_(I)t was soon realized that "the numerical majority of stars with C [carbon] in their spectra are dwarfs, not giants."
_The presence of hydrocarbons in the atmosphere of the planet Saturn was verified in 1982.3
_Not only Saturn, but Jupiter, Uranus, and Neptune have been found to "contain enormous amounts of methane and other hydrocarbons in their atmospheres."5
..3 Science "Special Saturn Issue" (January 29, 1982), p. 500.
..4 T. Gold, New Scientist (June 26, 1986), p. 42.
..5 Ibid.

PS p.55 TITAN'S METHANE
In our opinion Titan could very well have received its atmospheric burden of methane from its parent planet Saturn very much as Earth would have done. The reason Titan's methane has not broken down in ultraviolet sunlight is because Titan's accumulation of Saturnian methane did not take place billions, but only a few thousand, years ago. ... But if it can be assumed that hydrocarbons can rain down on Titan, there is nothing improbable in our own hypothesis that hydrocarbons have precipitated to the ground in Earth's primordial past.1O
..10 NOTE: The presence of hydrocarbons in the atmosphere of the planet Venus will be considered in a future volume of this series.

PS p.57-58 PETROLEUM NOT FROM FISH
_Miller's verdict was that "some terrible catastrophe" was involved in the "sudden destruction" of the fish in [Scotland] which stretched "at least a hundred miles from boundary to boundary, perhaps much more."3 ... We could go on describing similar situations from Monte Bolca in Italy; the Harz Mountains of Germany; from Switzerland; Ohio; Michigan; the Green River in Arizona; Lompoc in California; and elsewhere in various other countries. In all these cases the remains of untold number[s] of fish have been preserved in whole or in part, in attitudes of agony, etched in the rock with no signs of putrefaction. None of them turned into petroleum.
..2 H. Miller, The Old Red Sandstone (Boston, 1865), p. 48.
..3 Ibid., p. 222.

PS p.58 BITUMINOUS SUBSTANCE & COAL
And yet, as George McCready Price noted: "In many places in America as well as in Europe where remains of fish are found, the shaley rock is so full of fish oil that it will burn almost like coal , while some scientists have even thought that the peculiar deposits like Albertite 'coal' and some cannel coals were formed from the distillation of the fish oil from the supersaturated rocks."1 But is it really fish oil, or is it oily shale in which the remains of fish are also entombed? As noted above, one of these fish cemeteries occurs in the Harz Mountains of Germany, concerning which W. Buckland wrote: "As these fossil fishes maintain the attitude of the rigid state immediately succeeding death, it follows that they were buried before putrefaction had commenced, and apparently in the same bituminous mud, the influx of which had caused their destruction."2 Could it not therefore have been that the constituents which form petroleum had already been contained in this "bituminous mud"? Or let us look at this another way. The most celebrated remains of fossil fish in Europe are those of the Saarbrucken in Germany. But these are found in coal formations.3 Does that mean that the coal in question was formed from the remains of unspoiled fish? Can coal be formed from fish? Or is it that the bituminous substance that went into the formation of coal also entombed the fish found in it? But then where did the bituminous substance come from?
..1 G. McCready Price, Evoltionary Geology and the New Catastrophism (Mountain View, California, 1926), pp.235 ff.
..2 W. Buckland, Geology and Mineralogy (Philadelphia, 1837), p. 103 (emphasis added).
..3 I. Velikovsky, op. cit., p. 21.

PS p.59 PRECAMBRIAN PETROLEUM
_(O)il was discovered in Australian rocks which are believed to have formed so geologically early that life forms for its formation had not yet evolved sufficiently.6 Thus, for instance, oil was not expected in Precambrian strata and geologists did not look for it. But there it is, and in vast quantities.7
..7 Science Frontiers (September-October 1998), p.3.

PS p.64 SATURN FLARE-UP RAIN OF HYDROCARBONS
_(T)he probability is that similar rains would have precipitated from proto-Saturn during its flare-up at the end of the Pleistocene. We notice, for instance, that the account from the Popul Vuh also mentions that "the sea was piled up" and that this amounted to "a great inundation." As we have seen in our previous volume, similar incursions of the sea, due to Earth's rotational braking, also accompanied proto-Saturn's flare-up. 12
..l2 Flare Star, pp. 372 ff.
PS p.65
_Of additional interest here is the realization by a class of geologists that oil was formed in association with sea level changes. 1 The probability is lent additional credibility by the discovery of aromatic and aliphatic hydrocarbons in sediments from Texas and Louisiana which have been dated to the Holocene (or Recent) epoch which followed immediately after the Pleistocene.2 Moreover, as noted by Derek Scott Allan and J. Bernard Delair, the asphalt lakes of Trinidad, Venezuela, and California are impregnated by the remains of late Pleistocene animals and plants.3
..3 D. S. Allan & J. B. Delair, Cataclysm! (Sante Fe, New Mexico, 1997), p. 203.

PS p.68 DATING THE BITUMIN
_The La Brea Woman has been dated at 9,000 years.2 Wooden artifacts from the same area are said to be anywhere from 4,000 to 6,000 years old.3 Others have vouched for 15,500 year-old artifacts.4 ... But why would so many of their wooden artifacts have also been entombed in the stuff? ... (T)he tar pools have also given up a fa(i)r amount of plants which, through comparison, are known to have thrived during the time of the entombed animals.5 Plants do not grow in tar pools, so how did this flora succumb to the bituminous sand?
..2 W. A. Akersten, loc. cit. [W. A. Akersten to J. D. H. Iles, private communique (May 3, 1982), published in the Canadian Society for Interdisciplinary Study Newsletter 1:3 (June 1982), p. 26.]
..3 Ibid.
..4 D. B. Vitaliano, op. cit., p. 29.
..5 W. Charlton, Ice Ages (Alexandria, Virginia, 1983), p. 61.

PS p.69 FLARE-UP SLOWED EARTH & CAUSED INUNDATION
_That the beasts in question could not have died on the spot is evidenced by the fact that their bones are not articulated. There is no reason for all those bones to have been scattered all over the place even if some of them had suffered at the fangs and talons of predators. Besides, tar is a very good preservative and any animals immersed in it should have retained a semblance of skin and tissue. None have been retrieved.2
_The immense quantity of gravel, cobble stones, and pebbles, all of fluvial origin, to say nothing of the sand itself, in which the bones are actually found preserved, speaks highly of an aqueous deposit. This seems to indicate that the bones were transported to the spot and deposited there by an immense wave. Such a wave would have been engendered through the temporary braking of Earth's rotation at the end of the Pleistocene Ice Age.3 Due to Earth's rotation from west to east, the Pacific Ocean would have continued to move in that direction through inertia. This accords well with a tidal wave that would have swept the western coast of California. This also accords well with the late Pleistocene dating of the tar-entombed remains. Whether it was the wave itself that slew the animals or whether the wave picked up the skeletons of those already dead through some other means remains a moot question. The far-spaced radiocarbon dates of the remains need pose no problem. If, as has been
claimed, supernovae can alter planetary carbon at light-years' distance,4 the lesser eruptive, but much nearer, proto-Saturnian flare-ups would surely have wrought havoc with Earth's atmospheric carbon content.
..2 Science Frontiers (November-December 2002), p. 3.
..3 Flare Star, pp. 372 ff.
..4 Ibid., p. 340, where various sources are cited.

IMO, it needs to be determined how much reduction of Earth's rotational velocity would be possible as a result of a Saturnian flare-up and whether the electromagnetic forces would affect the oceans differently than the crust. If a flare-up would slow the crust and the oceans the same amount, then there would be no inundation of oceans onto continents. It's possible that a close approach of Venus, Mars, the Moon or another large body may have caused inundations.

[Lloyd]

10,324

SOME NOTES ON IMPACTS

My comments are in blue.

CRATONIC BASINS FROM IMPACTS DURING GREAT FLOOD
Precambrian impacts and the Genesis Flood
creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j28_3/j28_3_99-105.pdf
_"600 cratonic basins exist which have an approximate saucer shape in three dimensions.26 Most of these basins are greater than 300 km in diameter. Most have no central uplift, but usually have thinned crust, an uplifted mantle, and are filled with relatively undeformed, thick sedimentary rocks. All these features would be expected from impacts with little or slow subsequent deformation after the first hour."

The continents and the ocean floors are the Earth's crust. Earth's mantle is below the crust. This says the crust is thinned at cratonic basins. That means the underside of the crust is raised up under the basins. Apparently, that would be due to the crust being somewhat plastic at greater depths, so the denser plastic mantle below would push upward when an impact weakens the crust temporarily. The Kola borehole project near Finland found that the crust became plastic about 7 miles deep, so it wasn't able to drill any deeper, since the drill hole kept filling in with surrounding plastic rock.

RAIN DURING GREAT FLOOD
Large cratonic basins likely of impact origin
creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j27_3/j27_3_118-127.pdf
_"Impact basins after the first hour"
_"Water ejected into the atmosphere (or higher) would spread around the earth and fall back as intense rain. This provides a potential mechanism for the Bible’s 40 days of rain.28"

600 impact basins on the continents indicates that there was very heavy meteor bombardment of the Earth. Many would also have hit the oceans, which would have sent a lot of water into the upper atmosphere, which then would have mostly fallen back to Earth as rain and maybe snow.

COMETARY DEBRIS DURING YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT AFTER GREAT FLOOD
Impact-related microspherules in Late Pleistocene Alaskan and Yukon “muck” deposits signify recurrent episodes of catastrophic emplacement
www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16958-2
_Conclusions
_Our results suggest that large amounts of melt-quenched impact spherules, associated with Pleistocene megafaunal remains, were deposited in the mucks of eastern Beringia after ~48 kyr. The SEM/EDS and Pt/Pd data we acquired indicates they are not cosmic, anthropogenic, or volcanic in origin (Fig. 8), but were most likely produced by hypervelocity airbursts and ground/ice impacts. Based on this evidence, and the damaged and disrupted character of the muck’s vertebrate and botanical material documented by others6,7,8,9, we conclude that some parts of the Beringian muck and Yedoma deposits were catastrophically emplaced during the Late Pleistocene by blast winds associated with multiple episodes of cosmic impact.
_Blast winds from the impacts would have swept across the Beringian landscape flattening trees and killing, dismembering, and burying megafaunal carcasses or body parts, along with logs, branches, other plant material, with a matrix of redeposited loess in low-lying creek valleys. Normal depositional processes such as slopewash, creep, and mudflow would have continued within the valleys during the thousands or more years between blast events. The lack of microspherules in the primary loess (Table S1) indicates that it was emplaced between impact episodes and those microspherules found within the mucks were added to the remobilized primary loess as it was retransported by blast winds along with comminuted organic material and the damaged and fragmented vertebrate and plant remains.

The "recurrent episodes of catastrophic emplacement" were likely over a very short time period, probably within a few days. The event would have been some decades to centuries after the Great Flood. Comet or meteor air burst blasts like that would not likely have continued to occur repeatedly in the same location. It seems unlikely that a blast alone would pile animal & plant parts, loess etc into great heaps. The muck in some places is over 4,000 meters deep on the Arctic coast. I guess Cardona thought tornadic winds from Saturn's polar column did all that. But the microspherules seem to show that meteoric air bursts were largely responsible. It's hard to tell offhand if there could have been a combination of both. Conventional dating methods are very inaccurate and C14 dating is apparently the best method available, although it likely overestimates ages by at least 2 or 3 times or more for older samples. It seems to be more accurate for younger samples.

[Lloyd]

10501

DENSER ATMOSPHERE BEFORE GREAT FLOOD

I started another workshop, this time for Cataclysmic Effects, such as Atmospheric Density etc at
https://futureschool.boards.net/thread/ ... s-workshop

ELECTRICAL CAUSE OF WEAKER GRAVITY IN SATURN SYSTEM
(to account for gigantism, i.e. megaflora and megafauna)
From PRIMORDIAL STAR, Cardona's book, p.172-3
_In agreement with Thornhill, we accept that Earth's gravity increased once the proto-Saturnian system's plasmasphere came in contact with the solar heliosphere. Proto-Saturn's flare-up would have been enough to change that body's electrical potential, and thus Earth's gravitational property. And this would then have been abetted by the proto-Saturnian system's entry into the Solar System and thus into the Sun's different electrical environment.

Gravity and Pterodactyls [Aeon Journal]
_The Biefield Brown effect shows that gravity depends on the charge of a condenser.

DENSER ATMOSPHERE, MORE CO2
So Dinosaurs Could Fly
wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/02/so-dinosaurs-could-fly-part-i/
_Adding all this together more than accounts for a 90% CO2 concentration at 90 Bar being reduced over time to a much lower say 20% CO2 and 4 or 5 bar – just right for the pterosaurs to take wing.

SEDIMENTARY ROCK STRATA HARDENED BY LOWER AIR PRESSURE
When did it happen?
www.newgeology.us/presentation30.html
_Calcium carbonate from seawater
_Surface ocean water is saturated with the elements that form calcium carbonate, and magnesium is present as well. The removal of carbon dioxide from seawater is called degassing. Degassing is a primary method for calcium carbonate precipitation, and it is enhanced by the agitation of crashing waves. In this model, the extended global meteorite bombardment collapses the vapor canopy and Earth loses much of its original atmosphere. The greatly lowered atmospheric pressure causes rapid degassing of the surface waters of the ocean. As the waves roll over the continent, calcium carbonate and calcium-magnesium carbonate precipitate into the sediment carried by the waves, forming limestone, sandstone, mudstone, dolomite, etc., depending on the contents of the waves. These carbonates are the principal "glue" that binds sedimentary rock minerals together.

MORE OXYGEN
A Presentation to the Northern Virginia Chapter of the Sierra Club
www.bobpickett.org/STORYsierraclub.htm
_Thus, it is speculated, extremely elevated levels of atmospheric oxygen were maintained; possibly at a level of 35%, much greater than today's 21% levels. The impacts of this elevated level would explain the existence of six foot long millipedes, amphibians that were nine to twelve feet long, and the profusion of insect families (increasing from one or two to more than 100 during the Carboniferous, with many being huge, including 2 and 1/2 foot wingspan dragonflies). The oxygen-rich atmosphere was a denser atmosphere that provided more lift and thus made it easier for them to fly. More importantly, the excess oxygen made it easier for insects to breathe. The 2 1/2' wingspan dragonfly would have had a body that was over an inch thick, possible only with such high oxygen levels. Ferns and other club moss-like trees grew enormous because plentiful oxygen made it easier for them to manufacture lignin, their main structural material.

DENSER ATMOSPHERE ON MARS
1. Sagan's fifth problem: Chemistry & biology of the terrestrial planets (Carl Sagan & Immanuel Velikovsky) [Books]
_Michael Zeilik tells us "Since Mars does not have liquid surface water now, conditions for it must have occurred in the past and would have required a warmer climate and a denser atmosphere."53 G. O. Abell informs us that "Geophysicists have pointed out that liquid water can simply not survive in the low pressure atmosphere Mars has today. Various experts estimate that the atmospheric pressure would have to be from 5 to 50 times as great as at present to allow liquid water to flow over the surface...."

COMMENTS
_The 35% oxygen atmosphere during the Younger Dryas, not long after the Great Flood, would have made it easy for a Saturn flare-up to set off a worldwide conflagration. The formation of hardened sedimentary rock strata seems to prove Earth's atmosphere was previously denser.
_I previously thought Earth's thicker atmosphere of the past allowed gigantism due to buoyancy, but now it seems that weaker gravity may more likely have been the cause, at least partly. And the electrical environment may have determined the change in gravity.
_The meteor bombardment of Earth that reduced Earth's atmosphere by half or 2 thirds or so also reduced much of Mars' atmosphere. All of the planets, moons and asteroids with craters were likely hit by the same meteor bombardment.

[Lloyd]

10578

VENUS' SURFACE

This is an interesting short video of part of Venus' surface, but is it actual images from the Russian spacecraft that landed on Venus and took one or more pictures on the surface?
A Flight Over the Surface of Planet Venus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrE52eGCMYA

Venus surface Venera probes 9 10 13 14
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1RKBqSKxW0

What are the best pictures of the surface of Venus?
https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-best ... e-of-Venus

Google Images
https://www.google.com/search?q=venus+s ... 66&bih=657

[Lloyd]

VENUS IMAGES/MAPS

Venus Complete Surface
http://physics.weber.edu/palen/Phsx1040 ... e-NASA.jpg

Rotating Venus Excellent NASA Video halfway down page
https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/planets/venus/in-depth/

Detailed Elevation Map
- http://spaceodyssey.dmns.org/media/6141 ... mosaic.png

Best Detailed Elevation Map with Names of Features and less polar distortion
- https://i.redd.it/pbhe511kr2wy.jpg

Elevation Map with Names of Large Features & Spacecraft Landing Sites
http://media.web.britannica.com/eb-medi ... A3A950.jpg

Elevation Map with Names of Large Features
https://i.stack.imgur.com/mmdpI.jpg

Elevation Map of Venus
https://www2.jpl.nasa.gov/magellan/gif/venustop.gif

COMMENTS

VENUS HIGHLANDS
Venus highlands and lowlands are comparable to those of Earth. Two of the highland areas are called continents. Before the Late Heavy Bombardment that was caused possibly by a Saturn Nova or Flare-up about 5,000 years ago, the Earth's supercontinent we think had no high mountains. Since Venus has high mountains, it seems it was hit by the Late Heavy Bombardment like Earth and many other bodies were. The continents on Venus may have formed from asteroid impacts.

VENUS CHASMS
There appear to be numerous long chasms on Venus, some of which cross directly over the high points of highlands. See esp. http://spaceodyssey.dmns.org/media/6141 ... mosaic.png We should try to determine how those were formed, whether electrically or by other means. Electrical seems most reasonable offhand.


GRAVITY & MEGAFAUNA/MEGAFLORA

Gravity and Pterodactyls [Aeon Journal]
_From: Aeon V:4 (July 1999)
_[[It was argued that a thicker atmosphere would have made it possible for pteradactyls to fly without weaker gravity.]]
_(P)ostulating an Earth with a lesser gravity in the primordial past to permit megafauna like Baluchitherium to roam presents something of a paradox. We have found that astronauts lose bone mass and are subject to muscular atrophy under extended micro-gravity conditions. Of course, this presents an extreme case, but extrapolating toward some optimum gravity condition leaves the impression that dinosaurs and their megafauna relatives fared quite well in their environment for several epochs, despite massive extinctions that brought each to a close. We do not yet know if such an optimum gravitational state exists. So, on first principles, a higher gravity would tend to increase bone mass and muscular development, and I'm quite sure that a young and growing Baluchiterium took full advantage of what was then available.

COMMENT
So would a thicker atmosphere have helped large land animals as well? And would they have been able to develop strong enough muscles to stand upright and walk or run?

[Lloyd]

10660

THICKER ATMOSPHERE BEFORE THE GREAT FLOOD

In my recent post at https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 2698#p2688 I said in a headline that SEDIMENTARY ROCK STRATA HARDENED BY LOWER AIR PRESSURE. I meant to say it was hardened by DEGASSING OF OCEAN FLOOD WATERS (due to falling air pressure). Here's the quote from NewGeology.us again along with a second paragraph that helps explain the rock hardening process during the Great Flood.

When did it happen?
www.newgeology.us/presentation30.html
_Calcium carbonate from seawater
_Surface ocean water is saturated with the elements that form calcium carbonate, and magnesium is present as well. The removal of carbon dioxide from seawater is called degassing. Degassing is a primary method for calcium carbonate precipitation, and it is enhanced by the agitation of crashing waves. In this model, the extended global meteorite bombardment collapses the vapor canopy and Earth loses much of its original atmosphere. The greatly lowered atmospheric pressure causes rapid degassing of the surface waters of the ocean. As the waves roll over the continent, calcium carbonate and calcium-magnesium carbonate precipitate into the sediment carried by the waves, forming limestone, sandstone, mudstone, dolomite, etc., depending on the contents of the waves. These carbonates are the principal "glue" that binds sedimentary rock minerals together.
_On the other hand, the much later Shock Dynamics impact did not remove enough atmosphere to lower atmospheric pressure, so calcium carbonate was not produced in vast amounts as before. Cross-continental waves did deposit sediment, but only a little calcium carbonate was released by wave agitation. That is why Cenozoic layers are mostly loose sediment, unlike the hard Paleozoic and Mesozoic rocks. "Cenozoic sediments can be recognized in the field because for the most part they are just that, sediments (rocks composed of unconsolidated [loose] materials). Where lithified, Cenozoic sandstone is usually friable [crumbly] and shale is mechanically weak." --Rance, Hugh. 1999. The Present is the Key to the Past. Queensborough Community College Press, online textbook, page 213

COMMENTS
Mike at NewGeology.us says the crumbly Cenozoic sediments were formed during the Younger Dryas period, some centuries after the Great Flood. But I think they may have formed mostly during the regressive stage of the Great Flood, when the flood waters were falling. This is an issue that I don't find to be well settled yet. The former thicker atmosphere seems to be more certain, if degassing of flood waters due to falling air pressure is what allowed rock strata to harden with calcium etc from sea water.

[Lloyd]

10917

MY FORMER SUMMARY OF EARTH HISTORY

Earth Chronology
https://milesmathis.forumotion.com/t73-earth-chronology
Dec 24, 2014
I doubt now that much physical evidence exists from before the Great Flood of about 5,000 years ago. So I now need to rethink the Age of Darkness. The Golden Age before the Flood still seems likely, despite the scarcity of physical evidence.

EARTH'S FORMER WETTER, LARGER, THICKER ATMOSPHERE (from former forum discussions)

_post by Lloyd » Fri Jan 24, 2014 8:33 pm
http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/v ... 836#p91972
Evidence of Low Gravity in the Past
Members of the EU team, esp. Ted Holden, consider that the large dinosaurs died out in part due to an increase in Earth's mass or in its force of gravity. If mass changes, then gravity should change too, since it depends largely on mass. Or does it? Mathis says the EM force depends on mass but the gravity force depends on volume. But the force of EM is already included in the gravity equation. So maybe a change in EM force would have a harmful effect on large fauna.
_post by JeffreyW » Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:18 pm
_Or the atmosphere was much thicker meaning it was more like a diffuse liquid, meaning the weight of dinosaurs would be reduced considerably because of buoyancy. As well the thicker atmosphere probably had higher concentrations of water vapor, and since water has a high specific heat capacity the heat coming off the dinosaurs was drawn away from them in large quantities, meaning they were probably warm blooded.
_As well a thicker atmosphere would allow for flight in much heavier animals, thus meaning their bodies could be much larger as opposed to wing span area. This concerns abnormally large dragonflies and flying dinos.
_I'm surprised this option is not considered, gas is a highly compressible fluid, the creatures closest to the surface were probably living in a dense fog of water vapor. The dense fog of water vapor would reduce their vision and make it unnecessary to have large brains (they couldn't see anything so there was very little to process).
_I'm guessing their auditory senses were relied on the most because if the gas is compressed to high levels sound would travel much faster, thus meaning they probably communicated via sound much better than vision.

The General Theory of Stellar Metamorphosis
_post by JeffreyW » Fri May 16, 2014 9:47 am
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... cb6#p95812
... In this theory Uranus and Neptune are in the very last "pre-Earth" stages before they begin to host life.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1711.0206v4.pdf The Main Book on Stellar Metamorphosis, Version 4

Thick Atmosphere and Dinosaur Buoyancy
http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=1143© Lloyd, Charles Chandler
_Mike Fisher's theory at http://newgeology.us seems to include the supposition that Earth's atmosphere was much thicker some millennia ago. The following supports that idea.
_DinosaurTheory.com: To produce an effective buoyancy force on dinosaurs the Earth's atmosphere would have to be thick enough to have a density comparable to the density of water. By summing the forces acting on a typical dinosaur such as a Brachiosaurus the density of the necessary atmosphere is calculated as:
_DF = DS (1 - 1/S.F.)
_where DF is the density of the fluid, Ds is the density of the substance submerged in the fluid such as the dinosaur, and S.F is the scaling factor. Inserting into this equation a scaling factor of 3.2 and an overall vertebrate density of 970 kg/m3, the Earth's atmospheric density during the late Jurassic period can be calculated to be 670 kg/m3. This says that to produce the necessary buoyancy so that the dinosaurs could grow to their exceptional size, the density of the Earth's air near the Earth's surface would need to be 2/3's of the density of water. http://www.dinosaurtheory.com/solution.html

Like JeffreyW, Fred Jueneman also theorized that Earth was formerly a planet like Uranus and Neptune with a very thick atmosphere.

[Lloyd]

11001

LESS DISEASE BEFORE THE CATACLYSMS

Higher oxygen and CO2 content of air and higher air pressure seem likely to have made healing much easier in pre-cataclysm times, but the previous post mentions the possibility of much greater humidity in ancient times too. And it turns out that contagious air-borne diseases are also much less common under higher humidity levels. That's why there are fewer colds and flus in the summer than in the winter.

See https://forum.freestateproject.org/inde ... #msg301591