Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:08 pm


22..17 THE ICE AGE
https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... he-ice-age

_I don't want to post my same paper on the Ice Age in 2 locations, so below I'm just giving the section titles from the above link.
_I recommend reading that paper because I think it provides a lot of insight on geology that is persuasive that the breakup of the Pangaea supercontinent occurred during the Great Flood after all of the land (which was all lowland) flooded. This is in conflict with Mike Fischer's, which supposes that Pangaea broke up a few centuries after the Flood. Although some continents moved all or partly into polar regions, the Earth mostly remained warm for several centuries as snow and ice gradually built up in Canada, Greenland, the northern U.S., northern Europe and in many mountain ranges. Oard estimates that it took 5 centuries before the Arctic froze and killed off the megafauna there. He didn't discuss Antarctica, but I imagine it froze over more quickly, probably in one or two centuries. Volcanic and impact dust caused the cooling. I hope readers enjoy Oard's insights.

Most of the material for this post comes from the following video by Michael Oard.

The Great Ice Age

[The Ivory Islands ... ry-islands
_{This image shows mummified trees or driftwood on one of the islands. ... MBfLxv.png
_This shows the locations of mammoth fossils and their former territory, but the dates are exaggerated, though the last date is close to correct. ... o_2008.png ]
_A good site about the Pangaea Breakup is
100 years: 5,200 BC: 85°F IN ARCTIC OCEAN. ICE AGE BEGINNING (Rockies, Andes, Alps, Himalayas, Greenland & Antarctica glaciate)
200 years: 5,100 BC: 75°. SEA LEVEL DROP (Arctic continental shelf becomes exposed; much of Canada glaciates)
300 years: 5,000 BC: 65°. MEGAFAUNA ETC, FORESTS, GRASSLANDS THRIVE (in northern Europe, Siberia, deserts etc)
700 years: 4,600 BC: 30°. ICE SHEET MELTS

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Dec 24, 2022 2:52 am



_ARK LANDING. Besides the Biblical and oral traditions that tell where Noah's ark landed, there is also physical evidence of a large drop stone and bark covering near the mountains of Ararat, which add to the probability that the ark landed near there.
_In order for the ark to land in Ararat, eastern Turkey, it must have started out near there, unless there is indication in the sedimentary rocks of AfroEurAsia that there were strong Flood currents.

_FLOOD CURRENT. In the Americas there is evidence of strong currents that moved from east to west during the Flood.
_Since the Americas were likely connected to AfroEurAsia (in Pangaea) during much of the time of the Flood, it's likely that the same current direction prevailed over the entire supercontinent.
_If Noah's ark then came from the east, it would have come from as far as northeastern Siberia, which was then to the east.
_Asia moved northward during the Pangaea breakup, moving Siberia northward from its former eastward location.

_TIDAL SURGES. If the Moon [or Mars or Venus] was on an elliptical orbit around the Earth, it could have caused high-tide tidal waves each month as it approached perigee.
_Nearly all of the land on Earth was part of a supercontinent, called Pangaea, which was all lowland, so kilometer-high tidal waves could submerge all of the land.

_BREAKUP. After all of the land was flooded, several asteroids hit Pangaea and broke it up, propelling the continents rapidly apart.
_Impulse mountain ranges and brake mountain ranges uplifted at the beginning and end of the continental movements.
_I think the mountains of Ararat were impulse mountains, uplifted right after the main asteroid impact.

_IMPACT DISTANCE. If the main asteroid impact occurred near the Seychelle Islands (in the west Indian Ocean) and if Noah's ark was in Ararat, eastern Turkey, the ark was 5,000 km or 3,100 mi. from the impact center, so at that distance it may have been safe from severe waves and impact fallout.
_The Seychelles appear to be on the rim of a huge crater and the continents all appear to have moved away from that location, so that is the probable location of the main asteroid impact.
_If the ark landed on high ground in the Ararat mountains, it must have gone aground as the mountains were uplifting, or shortly after the uplift.

_ARK JOURNEY. The ark may have drifted from eastern (Siberia) to western Asia (Turkey) during the entire Flood.
_The Black and Caspian Sea basins are likely impact crater basins.
_The ark probably drifted just to the north of the present Caucasus Mountains between those two seas.
_The main asteroid impact pushed Asia north, so the Flood waters would have started moving south toward the newly opened Indian Ocean basin.
_As the Caucasus and Ararat mountains uplifted, the ark was likely between them and landed in Ararat as the Flood waters drained south.
_So I speculate that it started in northeast Siberia, north of Yakutsk, drifted through Kazakhstan and into southeast Russia, then south to Ararat.

_SAFEST ROUTE. That may have been the safest route.
_The two impacts that formed the Black and Caspian Seas likely occurred early when the ark was in northeast Siberia, so they would not have endangered it.
_Starting in any other location would have likely put it way off course from ending up at Ararat.
_Had it gotten into the either of the newly forming Indian or Atlantic Ocean basins, it would more likely have gotten sunk.
_If it had been further south in Asia, it could have ended up getting smashed by the uplifting Himalaya Mountains.

_REPOPULATION. If it were carrying surviving animal kinds (maybe hibernating young), Ararat would have been a good location to spread out around the world from.
_According to the previous post, animals could have easily migrated to all of the continents as snowfall lowered sea level, opening land bridges.
_It took about 500 years for the warmth of the Arctic to dwindle enough to freeze, and the Ice Age lasted only another 200 years or so.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:50 pm



_ANCIENT PROTECTIVE STRUCTURES. The video channel, Shattered History, has a new video, Ancient Shelters, Bunkers, Hideouts, and Fortifications | Pre-Cataclysmic Protective Structures, at . The author has made conclusions similar to what I and some other Catastrophism scholars and supporters have concluded. I posted the following comment under her video to suggest modifications of her theory, except for the bracketed titles.
_[FORUM & SUBSTACK.] I post weekly sci news links on the Thunderbolts-info forum Resources board, called Major Sci News Blog and I post the links to your videos there when they come out. I also have a Substack called CataclysmicEarthHistory. I suggest that you start a Substack site of your own, since it's easy and may help disseminate your info.
_[CATASTROPHISM SCHOLARS.] I think we, i.e. me, you and other Catastrophism scholars and Creationists, are on the right track by supposing that catastrophes occurred in the last 6,000 years or so. I just started writing on Substack this past summer. An early post I wrote there is called PROOF SEDIMENTARY ROCK IS NOT OLD. In it I showed that nearly all sedimentary rock must have been deposited over a short period of time. In another post, titled DATING METHODS, I showed that they are largely highly inaccurate.
_[DATING THE GREAT FLOOD.] Creationists have dated zircons and potassium in granite to be no more than 8,000 years old. They conclude that Earth is under 8,000 years old, but I conclude that the granite is that age, not the entire Earth. The oldest tree is apparently about 4,700 years old, so the Great Flood likely occurred not long before that. I think these two videos explain the Great Flood well: 90 Minutes of Geological Evidence for Noah's Flood at and The Best movie explaining Noah's Flood Ever made at
_[ICE AGE AFTER THE FLOOD & A LATER FLOOD.] In this video, The Great Ice Age, at Michael Oard makes a good case IMO that the Ice Age occurred after the Great Flood. The continents broke away from Pangaea toward the end of the Flood and the mountain ranges uplifted in the process. The ice sheet started to build up soon after the Flood, but the Arctic remained warm for about 500 years before it finally froze over. And the ice sheet then melted after another 200 years, about 700 years after the Flood. I think it was the Younger Dryas impacts that likely triggered the rapid melting of the ice sheet. This melting then caused another widespread Flood.
_[MEGAFAUNA FROZE TO DEATH BEFORE YD FLOOD.] The tunnels in Europe that you discussed in a recent video were dug by megafauna after the Great Flood while the climate was still warm, but they died out as the climate became too cold. Likewise, animals and plants thrived in other northern regions for several centuries all the way to the Arctic Ocean, but finally froze to death after several centuries as temperatures plummeted. The worldwide megalithic structures that you found were originally buried under sediments must have been built after the Great Flood while there was still warm climate and megafauna. The sediments came from the Younger Dryas melting of the ice sheet, not from the earlier Great Flood.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Jan 02, 2023 1:14 am



Black Mat at the Younger Dryas Boundary
The impact of a comet or asteroid 12,900 years ago [more like 4,600 years ago] on the Laurentide Ice Sheet triggered a cataclysm that caused great devastation in North America and the onset of a global winter. A layer of dark soil called a black mat marks the transition between our modern world and a land previously populated by large animals like mastadons, short-faced bears and giant armadillos. ... A paper published in 2007 by Richard Firestone and 25 co-authors presented evidence for an extraterrestrial impact 12,900 years ago [which is much better dated to 4,600 years ago] that contributed to the megafaunal extinctions and the Younger Dryas cooling. This paper became the foundation of what is now called the Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis. The abstract mentions a carbon-rich black layer ... that has been previously identified at 50 Clovis-age sites across North America and appears contemporaneous with the abrupt onset of the Younger Dryas cooling. The bones of extinct Pleistocene megafauna, along with Clovis tools, occur below this black layer but not within or above it. ... This is an image of the Murray Springs Clovis site in Arizona. ... The dark line along the arroyo wall is the black mat.... The Younger Dryas Boundary ... markers, including magnetic grains and microspherules, iridium, soot, and fullerenes with extraterrestrial helium, are present in the few centimeters just below the black mat at the top of the underlying sediment. This line represents the surface at the end of the Clovis period before the formation of the black mat. ... These footprints and the mammoth skeleton appear to have been preserved by rapid burial after the YDB event. No Clovis points or extinct megafaunal remains have been recovered from or above the black mat, indicating that the mammoths and Clovis hunting technology disappeared simultaneously.

[In a paper] Haynes says that the extinction of the megafauna appears to have been catastrophic, seemingly too sudden and extensive for either human predation or climate change to have been the primary cause. ... The paper by Haynes has a map of the United States showing 57 locations with black mats of Younger Dryas age represented as filled circles. The open circles are 27 localities with Pleistocence-Holocene transitional sediments but with no black mats. Notice that most of the black mats are in the western part of the United States. ... Haynes attributes the black mats to relatively moist conditions as a result of higher water tables, indicated by the presence of wet-meadow soils, algal mats and pond sediments. Some black mats do not have enough charcoal to indicate extensive biomass burning. ... [Another] paper has a map of the contiguous United States and southern Canada that indicates the frequency of dates by state or province for the directly dated megafauna sample and the distribution of archeological radiocarbon dates.... The absence of megafauna fossils in the southern United States is notable. The states of Arkansas, Louisana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina and North Carolina don't seem to have megafauna fossil evidence at all.

_Before examining the maps of the black mats and the megafauna fossils, let us review the Glacier Ice Impact Hypothesis published in 2017, which proposes four mechanisms for the formation of the Carolina Bays. First, a meteorite impact on the Laurentide Ice Sheet ejected glacier ice boulders in ballistic trajectories. The secondary impacts by the ice boulders liquefied unconsolidated ground [softer ground]. Oblique impacts of ice boulders on liquefied ground created inclined conical cavities, and viscous relaxation reduced the depth of the conical cavities to produce shallow elliptical bays and the Nebraska Rainwater Basins. These impact structures only occur within a radius of 1500 kilometers from Saginaw Bay [Michigan], which was the range of ballistic sedimentation of the ejecta curtain. When we draw a circle with a radius of 1500 kilometers from Saginaw Bay, which is thought to be the location from where the glacier ice boulders were ejected by an extraterrestrial impact, we notice that the black mats are found mostly beyond the 1500 kilometer radius, away from where the secondary glacier ice bombardment occurred.

_This image combines the black mat map by Haynes and the megafauna fossil map by Broughton and Weitzel. Let us take a look at the Carolina Bays in South Carolina. A recent video calculated the energy of the impacts that created the Carolina Bays in Marlboro County, South Carolina. The detailed analysis of the overlapping impacts indicated that Marlboro Couhty ... received a glacier ice bombardment with energy of [about 8] megatons of TNT per square kilometer. With this tremendous glacier ice bombardment, all the megafauna ... and all the forest plants would have been completely obliterated and there would be no remains to be fossilized. Another recent video calculated the energy of emplacement of the smaller Carolina Bays that are found in New Jersey as 880 kilotons per square kilometer. The density of the Carolina Bays enable us to deduce the distribution of the ejecta from the extraterrestrial impact. They correspond to a kinetic energy of almost 8 megatons of TNT per square kilometer. This is enough to grind up megafauna into a paste that leaves nothing to fossilize. ... 880 kilotons per square kilometer in New Jersey ... is enough to kill all the megafauna, but not enough to completely pulverize them, so some bones remain[ed] to be fossilized. The megafauna extinction map also tells us something about the ejecta curtain. The lack of fossils in Arkansas, Louisana, Mississippi and Alabama indicates that the impacts of the glacier ice were just as powerful in these states as in South Carolina, but these states have no Carolina Bays because the ground is hard and could not be liquified to allow the formation of inclined conical cavities. The impacts on hard ground shattered the ice projectiles and pulverized the megafauna, but they did not leave the geological evidence that we find in the Atlantic Coastal Plain [like New Jersey]. ... The [ice boulder] impacts on hard ground created shards of ice and thick clouds of ice particles.

_Nuclear explosions can provide an analogy of what happened when the ejecta curtain collapsed. On July 6, 1962, an atomic blast in Nevada with energy of 104 kilotons exploded upward and outward displacing more than eleven million tons of soil. A circular area of the desert floor five miles or 8 kilometers across was obscured by fast-expanding dust clouds moving out horizontally from the blast site like a pyroclastic surge. This image shows the start of the expansion of the low-hanging dust cloud far beyond the area covered by the ejecta. Similar surface dynamics may have been responsible for the black mats. Within the circle of ballistic sedimentation, the vegetation was ground up and worked into the soil, so there was no vegetation on the surface to create a black mat. Beyond the ballistic sedimentation circle, the air pressure of the falling ice projectiles blew a cloud of ice particles that covered grasses and trees like an avalanche. The thick coating of ice smothered the vegetation and created the moist conditions that promoted the growth of algae to form black mats. ... I want to point out that the black mat is at a very shallow depth from the modern surface. In this picture, we can estimate that the black mat is about 2 feet or about 60 centimeters [deep].

_[COMMENTS: CONFLAGRATION. Paragraph 1 mentions carbon-rich and paragraph 2 mentions burning. The latter says some black mats don't seem to have involved burning to produce carbon. Cardona had said that the Conflagration was extensive, but didn't hit everywhere. A paper called Analysis of the Younger Dryas Impact Layer at ... f?t=lr5iio says: "The black mat which overlays the YDB layer at many sites, marking the point above which no megafauna fossils or Clovis points are found, was not formed by the impact but instead appears to consist mainly of algal material produced by dying organic matter and burned material." I think the burned material was mostly trees and other dry vegetation. I suppose the conflagration did not occur where the secondary impacts of ice boulders occurred, unless it occurred immediately before that. The conflagration could have been caused by cometary volatile gases, or by a Saturn nova. I don't know what else might have caused it.
_PULVERIZATION. Notice in paragraph 4 that the ice boulders that were ejected from Michigan landed in a ring 900 miles in radius all the way to the southeastern states and along the Atlantic coast and presumably up into Canada and out to Nebraska. Apparently, these impacts covered the entire area within the circle. They were so thick and so energetic that they pulverized all living things in the southern states. Elsewhere within the circle they were thick and powerful enough to kill almost everything, but not to pulverize, thus leaving bones and other remains to fossilize.
_FLOODING. Everybody and everything alive must have had a very bad day that day in North America. And it wasn't so good in most of the rest of the world either. Evidence from the impact has been found in Europe, the Middle East and South America so far. Besides the widespread conflagration, notice that in paragraph 1 they mentioned rapid burial of animals that fossilized. The ice sheet melting may have been the cause of flooding that buried them. It's complicated to figure out exactly what happened when. They say there followed 1300 years of cooling after the YD impacts, but their measuring of time is way off. It probably only lasted a few years or so at most. Michael Oard figured out most of the Ice Age story, I think, but he didn't discuss the YD event. So I wanted to find the best YD info I can get and Zamora's video seems to be that, despite misdating it, as they nearly all do.]

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Jan 07, 2023 9:22 pm



I just posted this paper, Y.D. ICE SHEET IMPACT & MASSACRE, at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... d-massacre
Substacks have the advantage of being able to host images, videos etc, unlike this forum. So I learned how to insert images and I told the story by including a bunch of images to make things clearer IMO.

IMPACT BUTTERFLY PATTERN. The new paper is similar to my previous post above, but it's based on another scholar's findings, that of Michael Davias, who has a website at His findings may be more thorough than Antonio Zamora's and they're a bit different. Zamora seems to think that the ejecta curtain from the Saginaw Bay impact extended in a circle or semicircle from New Jersey to Alabama to Nebraska, but Davias shows that Mars low-angle impacts have ejecta blankets that have a butterfly shape (which seems to be similar to the pattern of felled trees from the Tunguska airburst), which he thinks should be applied to the YD impact. So the ejecta curtains likely only extended from NJ to Alabama to the east and from Nebraska north onto the ice sheet to the west. The secondary impacts onto the ice sheet would not have left much evidence, once the ice sheet melted.

SAND/ROCK EJECTA WITH THE ICE. Another interesting finding by Davias is that the primary impact likely ejected a significant amount of sand or rock as well as ice. He thinks the ice sheet was between 1 and 2 kilometers thick at the impact site and that it came in at a low angle. The sand and rock that was ejected provided the thick layer of sand that the Carolina Bays were formed in.

HOW MUCH ICE EJECTA? Something I haven't discussed in my Substack paper is that, if the impactor came in at a low angle, like 5 degrees above horizontal, it must have encountered a lot of ice before finally hitting the ground. If the ice sheet were 1 kilometer thick, the sine (= depth) of 5 degrees is .087 and the cosine (= length) is .996. .996/.087 = 11.4. So if the sine is 1 kilometer, the cosine is 11.4 kilometers. The hypotenuse is only slightly more than the cosine. So the impactor would have encountered 11.4 kilometers of ice before hitting ground. That's unrealistic IMO. The impactor would more likely have started to explode as soon as it made solid contact with the ice. It's a bit too mind-boggling to think much more about right now.

Anyway, my paper has quite a bit of interesting findings, including about fossil testing etc.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Cargo » Sat Jan 14, 2023 1:55 am

Something to plug into the data set. A new finding of ancient maya times. ... -guatemala
Geologists in northern Guatemala have discovered a massive Maya site that stretches approximately 650 square miles (1,700 square kilometers)..

the team identified more than 1,000 settlements dotting the region, which were interconnected by 100 miles (160 kilometers) of causeways that the Maya likely traversed on foot. They also detected the remains of several large platforms and pyramids, along with canals and reservoirs used for water collection, according to the study, which was published Dec. 5 in the journal Ancient Mesoamerica ( ... CA6DB93E5E). ... 75x603.png
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes
"You know not what. .. Perhaps you no longer trust your feelings,." Michael Clarage
"Charge separation prevents the collapse of stars." Wal Thornhill

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Jan 14, 2023 4:38 am



MOSES, ROD, SERPENT - I posted at
_It discussed: 1) MOSES' ROD/SNAKE TRICK
5) JACOB'S COMET (The Hebrew word [for staff] is shevet and for comet is shavit.)

SEDIMENTARY ROCK STRATA FORMATION - I posted at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -formation
and it has pictures and 2 videos.

_Y.D. ICE SHEET IMPACT & MASSACRE: North American Biosphere pulverized by Sand & Ice Bullets - I mentioned that previously, which I posted at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... d-massacre
_Here's a followup. Researchers find evidence of a cosmic impact that caused destruction of one of the world's earliest human settlements ... world.html
_It says this.
_Before the Taqba Dam impounded the Euphrates River in northern Syria in the 1970s, an archaeological site named Abu Hureyra bore witness to the moment ancient nomadic people first settled down and started cultivating crops. A large mound marks the settlement, which now lies under Lake Assad.
_But before the lake formed, archaeologists were able to carefully extract and describe much material, including parts of houses, food and tools — an abundance of evidence that allowed them to identify the transition to agriculture nearly 12,800 [no, ca. 4,600] years ago. It was one of the most significant events in our Earth's cultural and environmental history.
_Abu Hureyra, it turns out, has another story to tell. Found among the cereals and grains and splashed on early building material and animal bones was meltglass, some features of which suggest it was formed at extremely high temperatures — far higher than what humans could achieve at the time — or that could be attributed to fire, lighting or volcanism.
_"To help with perspective, such high temperatures would completely melt an automobile in less than a minute," said James Kennett, a UC Santa Barbara emeritus professor of geology. Such intensity, he added, could only have resulted from an extremely violent, high-energy, high-velocity phenomenon, something on the order of a cosmic impact.
_Based on materials collected before the site was flooded, Kennett and his colleagues contend Abu Hureyra is the first site to document the direct effects of a fragmented comet on a human settlement. These fragments are all part of the same comet that likely slammed into Earth and exploded in the atmosphere at the end of the Pleistocene epoch, according to Kennett. This impact contributed to the extinction of most large animals, including mammoths, and American horses and camels; the disappearance of the North American Clovis culture; and to the abrupt onset of the end-glacial Younger Dryas cooling episode.
_An impact or an airburst must have occurred sufficiently close to send massive heat and molten glass over the entire early village, Kennett noted.
_The glass was analyzed for geochemical composition, shape, structure, formation temperature, magnetic characteristics and water content. Results from the analysis showed that it formed at very high temperatures and included minerals rich in chromium, iron, nickel, sulfides, titanium and even platinum - and iridium-rich melted iron — all of which formed in temperatures higher than 2200 degrees Celsius.
_According to the study, the meltglass was formed "from the nearly instantaneous melting and vaporization of regional biomass, soils and floodplain deposits, followed by instantaneous cooling."
_"The largest cometary debris clusters are proposed to be capable of causing thousands of airbursts within a span of minutes across one entire hemisphere of Earth.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:59 pm


I just posted a new paper, GRAND CANYON FORMATION, at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... -formation which has some helpful images and links.


_This is part of an article on Mike Fischer's website at ... 010.25.pdf called "Biblical scholar Bernard Northrup on the controversial verse Genesis 10:25 the birth of Peleg, 'in whose days the earth was divided'." In part he quotes B E Northrup who said: "The ancient Septuagint Greek translation and the Samaritan (Hebrew) Pentateuch ... suggest ... that the [Masoretic?] Hebrew chronology has been abbreviated for some unknown reason."
_By the way, Brian Thomas said (in the Journal of Creation): "The earliest witness to the MT chronology occurs in the Seder Olam Rabbah, which severely reduced post-exilic chronology in order to disqualify Jesus as the Messiah that Daniel 9:6 foretold." (See ... =690#p7710 )
_Mike apparently gathered from Northrup's paper that the Tower of Babel incident occurred 4 generations after Noah and the breakup of Pangaea occurred 200 years after that, which I assume would mean the breakup occurred about 330 years after the Great Flood. I think Mike dates the breakup to about 500 years after the Flood, but I guess he's flexible on that.

_Mike said: "I have understood 'ERETZ to have the same meaning that it does in Genesis 1:10 where God gives the name 'ERETZ to the YABBASHAH, the great single continent which heaved up out of the sea at His command on the third solar day. Now 'ERETZ, meaning the whole planet earth, is found in Genesis 1:1. But like the word 'heavens', the word 'earth' is redefined later in the text. It is obvious that it is not physical planet earth which is divided in Genesis 10:25." ...

_"Now we have been discussing Genesis 10:25, the first place in the Scriptures mentioning continental division. The verse reads: 'And unto Eber two sons were born. The name of the one was Peleg [to divide by water] for in his days the landmass was divided by water' (BENorthrup). ... The name Peleg is based on a Hebrew verb. ... Each of the [Hebrew] PL verbs ... when the third consonant is G producing the verb PLG, there is a remarkable emphasis upon water. According to Fuerst, basically the verb PLG means "to cleave, to divide, to separate. ... The intensive active form of this verb is found in Job 38:25 which asks these questions: "Who utterly split apart a water channel for an overwhelming flood of waters or made a way for the lightening of the thunder?" (BENorthrup). ... In Genesis 10:25 the very same verb form found in Job 38:25 is used as a noun to name a child when this violent, catastrophic, earth splitting event was taking place. The latter verse also likens the swiftness of the division of the land mass to the way that lightening finds its way through the clouds. (From “The Genesis of Geology” B E Northrup)

_"All of the physical evidence in the world demonstrates that the latest catastrophe to trouble the whole world was the Biblical ice epoch. And that evidence unquestionably indicates that the ice epoch followed the separation of the continents. And the physical evidence, when thoughtfully examined, leaves the creationist no room to conclude that these periods of the earth's history are part of the Noahic flood. They clearly are postNoahic flood. ... The deposits of the Noahic flood on the opposing continents across the Atlantic terminate at the continents' edges. There are absolutely no Noahic flood deposits on the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean for it was not there when the Noahic flood covered the great single continent implied by Genesis 1:9 and separated in the days of Peleg beginning in Genesis 10:25. Noahic flood deposits are lifted from hundreds of feet to many thousands of feet in the Andes by the crushing, buckling and intruding forces produced along the leading edge of South America as its leading edge dove into the great Humboldt [Atacama] trench 20,000 feet below the sea along the western edge of the continent. The great glaciers of the world are deposited on the volcanic ejecta and the folded flood strata that was folded well after the Noahic flood. The crust reshaping heat of the leading edge of our own great plate produced by its overriding of the Pacific ocean bottom powered the intrusions and uplifts of most of our western mountains. That is true throughout the Central Rockies where the continent apparently overrode and settled over a hot plume welling up out of the rheosphere, of the Sierras, the Klamath Mountains, the Cascades, the Northern Rockies and the Canadian Rockies wherever I have examined them. It is obvious that it is impossible to consider the division of the continents and the Biblical ice epoch to be part of the closing events of the Noahic flood."

_That's the end of the quotes from Mike's paper. So far, I find the dating of the Pangaea breakup to be more likely during the Great Flood rather than some centuries later as Mike thinks. Some of the reasons are: 1. there are apparently Great Flood sediments in the Gulf of Mexico and a short distance into the Atlantic and Indian Oceans off the coasts of the Americas and Africa, contrary to what Mike seemed to say above; 2. the folds in hard strata that show little or no cracking, mainly in mountainous areas, seem to require that the mountains compressed horizontally in some locations and uplifted before the Flood ended or before the sediments hardened into solid rock; 3. if Noah was a real person, and the drop stones near Ararat suggest that the ark was real, and if the ark landed in a mountainous area, the mountains must have formed during the Flood. Based on that and the apparent likelihood that the Septuagint Bible is the most accurate version of the Old Testament, the Pangaea breakup and the Flood must have occurred about 3,300 BC.

_Above I quoted Mike "in Genesis 1:10 ... God gives the name 'ERETZ to the YABBASHAH, the great single continent which heaved up out of the sea at His command on the third solar day. Now 'ERETZ, meaning the whole planet earth, is found in Genesis 1:1. But like the word 'heavens', the word 'earth' is redefined later in the text. It is obvious that it is not physical planet earth which is divided in Genesis 10:25."

_I recalled that Saturnists have interpreted things like Eretz differently, so I did a search at ... uery=eretz
_These are the results that show Saturnist interpretations.
1. Darkness and the Deep [Aeon]
... the solitary god - i.e. Saturn - slowly emerged into view. 4. Tohu Wa Bohu The father of all creation myths, at least in the Western World, is that contained in the very first chapter of the Book of Genesis. It is there stated that: In [the] beginning Elohim created the shemayim and ____eretz. And ____eretz was tohu wa bohu, and darkness was on the surface of the tehom. And the ruach of Elohim moved upon the face of the mayim. (37) Elohim (El and/or Eloah), as I have elsewhere indicated, was one of the ancient names of Saturn. (38) "Shemayim ...
3. The World Ages, Prologue Ch.2 (Worlds in Collision) [Velikovsky Worlds in Collision]
... six consecutive remouldings. New conditions were created after each of the catastrophes. On the fourth earth lived the generation of the Tower of Babel; we belong to the seventh age. Each of the ages or "earths" has a name. Seven heavens were created and seven earths were created: the most removed, the seventh, ____Eretz; the sixth, Adamah; the fifth, Arka; the fourth, Harabah; the third, Yabbashah; the second, Tevel; and "our own land called Heled, and like the others, it is separated from the foregoing by abyss, chaos, and water."(20) Great catastrophes changed the face of ...
7. Velikovsky's Sources Volume One [Book]
... are transformed into a number of different heavenly forms (planets, individual stars, or even whole constellations) and that consequently, Venus transformations are nothing particularly special. (G .) Astronomical. On WIC p.44, V writes: " Seven heavens were created and seven earths were created: the most removed, the seventh, ____Eretz; the sixth, Adamah; the fifth, Arka; the fourth, Harabah; the third, Yabbashah; the second, Tevel; and our own land called Heled, and like the others, it is separated from the foregoing by abyss, chaos, and water. ' Vhere refers to G.1 .4 & 9 ...
9. Morning Star* [Aeon]
... as the watery abyss surrounding the formless Saturnian body during its first appearance. (144) It is therefore interesting to learn that Tohu, the singular of tehom, was believed to have been "a green band which encompasses the whole world," (145) in which the "world" is understood as the celestial earth, that ____eretz, which was itself synonymous with the same Saturnian band. (146) Much more can be said about this subject but, for our present purposes, the above should suffice. This slight digression, concerning the nature and color of the Saturnian band, was not merely necessary in explaining the green feathery covering of Quetzalcoatl as the cosmic ...
_So Eretz seems more likely to have been connected with the Saturn Configuration, maybe a band around Saturn, the outermost of the 7 bands.

_I didn't find a Saturnist interpretation of PELEG at ... uery=peleg but I found a couple of interesting excerpts.
6. Some Notes on Catastrophism in the Classics [SIS Workshop]
... standing on the battlements of Mycenae resting his head on his hands kynos diken', in the manner of a dog, waiting for the fire-signal that is to announce the capture of Troy. While on the subject of Agamemnon, murdered with an axe by his wife on his return to Mycenae, it is interesting to note the similarity between ____Peleg (Genesis, Chapter X), in whose days the earth was divided, and pelekys' the Greek double axe. Of similar appearance, perhaps, was Thor's hammer Mjollnir (Russian molnia' = lightning); the one would be well suited for checking errant celestial bodies, the other for laying low a sacrificial bull, so ...
9. The Legends of the Jews: Volume I - Noah [Book]
... the earth. The south fell to the lot of Ham, and the north became the inheritance of Japheth. The land of Ham is hot, Japheth's cold, but Shem's is neither hot nor cold, its temperature is hot and cold mixed.[68] This division of the earth took place toward the end of the life of ____Peleg, the name given to him by his father Eber, who, being a prophet, knew that the division of the earth would take place in the time of his son.[69] The brother of Peleg was called Joktan, because the duration of the life of man was shortened in his time.[70] In ...
_9 seems to suggest that Peleg meant that the land was divided among Noah's descendents. It's interesting that the same time was said to be the time when human lifespans shortened.

_6 suggests that Peleg might mean divided by something like an ax. Mike said Peleg might mean river or rivers, which divide the land. That actually could relate to Saturnist ideas, namely to the idea that the face of Saturn appeared to be divided into 4 quarters by 4 rivers shaped like a cross. So I'm wondering if the cross on the face of Saturn or Venus first appeared in the time of Peleg about 330 years after the Great Flood. If so, that would have been about 3,000 BC.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Jan 30, 2023 4:59 am



PELEG AFTER THE FLOOD. I expect to be posting a copy of this soon along with images at
Lately, I found a possible clue for narrowing down the timeline for cataclysmic history. If Peleg lived about 300 years after the Great Flood, and if the name means "divided by rivers", and if the Saturn configuration appeared to be divided by 4 streams across the face of Saturn that came from Venus in front of Saturn, then the first appearance of the 4 Venus streamers on the face of Saturn may have been 300 years after the Flood. That would have been in the middle of the Golden Age, which was likely simultaneous with the first 500 years of the Ice Age, according to Oard's findings on the Ice Age.
SATURN SYSTEM ORIGIN. Saturn was alone in darkness before the Flood. It was colored a dim red or reddish violet. The Earth was traveling behind Saturn through space, coming from a distant part of the solar system, when the Sun was not yet visible, possibly because of Saturn's plasmasphere extending around Earth being somewhat opaque.
NOVA & FLOOD. Just before the Flood, Saturn brightened as a nova, turning bright white. This may have occurred near the present orbit of Jupiter. The nova may have helped cause the Flood.
VENUS & MARS. As Saturn dimmed enough after the Flood, Venus appeared in front center of Saturn. Later, as the configuration dimmed a bit more, Mars appeared in front center of Venus. Venus looked like a bright white band around reddish Mars. Venus & Mars looked like the heart or the eye of Saturn.
PLASMA COLUMN. A dusty plasma polar column appeared between Saturn & the Earth, which looked like an evergreen tree, the World Tree or Tree of Life.
Ancient Saturn Polar Configuration
Tree of Life Sumer ... 2dc95e.jpg ... e-and.html
Tree of Life Egypt ... G_2858.jpg
Peratt Instabilities, Plasma Columns, Z-Pinch. The Axis Mundi. ... s-z-pinch/
Fig. 68. Plasma Column = War Bonnet? ... 07-067.jpg
Left: Northern hemisphere petroglyphs from the Columbia River Basin, 45.65° N, 121.95° W. Right: Oblique view into the auroral plasma column from these coordinates.
Native American War Bonnet ... ca._01.jpg
Fig. 18. Plasma Owl ... result.jpg
VENUS FIRST WANDERING. THE "TERRIFYING GLORY" OF VENUS, By Dave Talbott (Thoth Vol II, No. 20: Dec 31, 1998) ... otii20.txt
In this phase Venus was in front center of Saturn, discharging luminous streamers.
Venus was called:
- Great Star, Great Comet, Long-haired, fiery-haired, Radiant heart/soul/life of Saturn
- glory, radiance, majesty, splendor, power, strength of Saturn
- Radiant eye of Saturn,
- eye with streaming tears
- Nave (hub) and spokes of Saturn's wheel
- Rayed crown, Feathered headdress, Shield, or protection of Mars
VENUS COMET. Comets - Chinese Astronomy ... aefccc.jpg
When the sky darkened each night, Venus' radiant streamers lit up the Saturn configuration until dawn the next day.
Instability in the configuration caused Venus to move sideways out of alignment from Saturn. As Venus moved from the front center of Saturn, its streamers became chaotic, undulating, serpentine and terrifying to viewers who weren't accustomed to such movements. Venus appeared to be lamenting over Saturn's death and angry with wildly disheveled hair, as Medusa. Think of Osiris & Isis (Saturn & Venus). Enheduana of Sumer said Venus poured venom upon the land (either on Earth or the land in the sky). Witnesses supposed Venus was angry because Saturn dimmed and appeared to be dead, while Venus was very bright. Dust may have dimmed Saturn and maybe also hid Mars for a time. Venus spiraled outward leaving a trail of dust, gas & debris forming 7 dusty, icy circles around Saturn. Cardona said these circles were called heavens, walls, days etc. They became Saturn's 7 rings, the outermost ring called Eretz was mistakenly equated with the Earth. ... -rings.png
The rings came to appear to be one ring, which was called the house of Saturn, or the Aten.
MARS REVIVED SATURN. (Ken Moss) ... =480#p4996 ... =480#p5022 ... =495#p5038 ... =495#p5039
The plasma polar column began to resemble a ladder or backbone of Saturn.
_Fig. 24 & 26. Peratt Column ... esult2.jpg ... result.jpg
It looked like a ladder or stairway to heaven. Mars helped re-animate Saturn by appearing to bring back Venus. The top of the plasma column looked like the jaws of Saturn. It seemed that Mars was opening Saturn's mouth & reviving him. ... 4_orig.jpg
(That image is from ... olumn.html)
MARS & VENUS WANDERINGS. On one or more occasions Mars left the configuration, moving downward toward the Earth and appearing to grow gigantic. Then Mars retreated back to the center of Venus & Saturn. Instability again caused Venus to leave Saturn. This time its visible 5 streamers looked like fingers, making Venus look like a Hand with Mars in the center looking like an eye in the palm of the hand. ... &ia=images
SATURN DEPARTURE. Saturn then became unstable itself during an encounter with Jupiter, which possibly occurred in and formed the asteroid belt. Saturn's departure may have also caused the polar column to collapse, like a world tree falling to the ground. Think of the story of Jack and the Beanstalk (= the polar column). Saturn moved outward back to the orbit of Saturn.
JUPITER SYSTEM & BREAKUP. The remaining planets slowly spiraled inward toward the Sun, following Jupiter. Mars then escaped and entered its present orbit after encounters with the Moon. Earth escaped next at its orbit. Finally Venus was escorted to its orbit and Jupiter then spiraled outward again to its present orbit. ... st-planet/

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:51 pm

Last edited by Lloyd on Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Feb 06, 2023 10:52 pm



Two days ago I made a new post on the Pangaea Breakup at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... p-disaster . In it I reviewed Mike Fischer's Shock Dynamics theory website at . Mike supposes that the Pangaea breakup occurred 300 years after the Great Flood, apparently because the Bible indicates that Peleg was born 300 years after the Flood and, since Peleg meant something like divided by water or rivers, he figured it referred to the Pangaea breakup. But I commented here lately that Peleg, as divided rivers, might have referred to the face of Saturn and/or Venus having been divided by four streams, so Peleg may have referred to the time of the first appearance of the four streams on the Saturn configuration. It's hard to tell if that's a realistic possibility at this point, but eventually I hope to find a smoking gun that can pinpoint when the Saturn configuration was seen, how it evolved and what connection it had to cataclysms that occurred on Earth.


Next, I provide quotations from three of Cardona's books about Saturn's rings and associations with Venus. I had thought that the rings formed from dust and debris from the cometary tail of Venus, but Cardona said the rings became Saturn's present rings. Since Venus was likely about halfway between Earth and Saturn, probably at least a million miles from each, I realized lately that it's unlikely that the rings would have ended up around Saturn, if they actually came from Venus. So I reread parts of his books to review his evidence and his conclusions. I found that I misunderstood him. However, it seems that other sources did say that the rings came from Venus, so I'll have to review some of those other sources later to see if I was right or wrong about that. Newborn Star was his last book, I think, and he was then only about halfway, or less, through explaining his findings about the evolution of the Saturn System, so there may not be a clear answer to my questions as yet. But from the quotes below, it's fairly clear now that Cardona regarded Saturn itself as the source of the rings. He and others have also discussed the Ouroboros and the Aten which are also said to have been an enclosure around Saturn, like the rings. Cardona said there was a disk around Saturn that looked like an ocean that Saturn floated on, but the disk is different from the rings and the Aten, and I don't know yet if the rings and the Aten were the same. The Aten was only a single ring, but it could have been the same as the 7 rings if the rings were close together. So maybe my next assignment will be to look into the Aten etc.

Below, I'll show: 1. some of Cardona's more informative quotes on the rings; 2. then I'll show the highlights from each quote; 3. then I'll show the quotes on Venus. 4. Then I guess I'll try to summarize my understanding of his info.


Let us face it, all of the major so-called sun gods of the ancients were actually personifications of the Saturnian sun. Even Ra, usually presented as the Egyptian sun-god par excellence,4 turns out to have been imbued with characteristics and motions which are not, and can never be, attributable to the present Sun. Thus ____Ra was lauded as having abided within a nest of rings or circles__; of having been of an emerald color shedding rays of emerald hue; of "going up" on the west and "going down" on the east side of the sky; and of moving down at dawn and upstream at night.5
-5 For full details see D. Cardona. God Star, pp.25-26,132,133,134-135,141-145,165,168,178,192,193,214-216,230,231,152,267,268,269,270,433,437,443.

T. Pyxidis in the dim southern constellation Pyxis. Somewhat like SN1987 A, this particular recurring nova has also developed a bevy of rings, in this case all concentric ones.4 It thus seems that rings, which we now know to be common among the gas giant planets of the Solar System, also go hand in glove with stellar flare-ups. ... Goldreich was vindicated when it was discovered that ____the rings of Saturn owe their configuration to a set of "shepherding moons"__ which act exactly as he had theorized for the rings of Uranus.2 ... More importantly, it was also established, very much in keeping with Goldreich's theory, that "in [planetary] rings, gravity can effectively repel material."7 ... a 'huge ring', ... had actually been discovered surrounding the Solar System beyond the orbit of Pluto.

Earth's primordial sun [i.e. ___Saturn, was apparently] surrounded by a nebulous entity, ... a circumstellar disk__ akin to those we now see surrounding stars....
The Mesopotamian Saturnian deity known as Ea ... fulfilled "a capacity in which the [cosmic] serpent would again fitly symbolize him."1 ... Ea's very name ... can also be rendered Hea, and thus assimilated to the Semitic hiya (hayya or haiya) which means both "snake" and "life."2 ... And, to be sure, the very uncoiling of proto-Saturn's plasmatic debris seems to have been understood by some of those who witnessed it as the supplier of life to the former immobile being that was proto-Saturn. Not only was "something," that is the uncoiling spiral, moving across the deity's previous static face - and this is what we are mainly driving at - but the orb itself ____was seen to shift. It had become endowed with life.__
____Other Egyptian texts do so present the deity as having wandered, even if only within a limited area.__ Thus, for instance, in one of the Coffin Texts, the Egyptian A tum was explicitly made to utter the following words: "I have taken my place that I may rest thus from searching and going to and fro and from circling round and round."1 And so, similarly, where it was described that: "In the beginning there was only darkness and water. The darkness congealed in certain places and it is from this that the Creator was made. He wandered aimlessly above the water and began to think. He became fully conscious of who he was and what he was to do."2
It was not just the Saturnian god himself that was seen to wander about in the sky, but also that which he had created. ... The Sathapatha Brahmana [says the all-] waters were becoming heated, a golden egg was produced and this golden egg floated about.5 ... Had the cosmic egg really been ____the shrunken circumstellar disk that encircled the proto-Saturnian orb, it would have appeared to wander around the sky together with its host.__
We have striven to show through geological, glaciological, paleontological, and other studies, Earth had been axially aligned with its proto-Satumian brown dwarf sun from its very inception. ... ____Earth was temporarily dislodged from its primordial axial alignment with proto-Saturn [due to] proto-Saturn's flare-up.__ As we have repeatedly noted, and as indicated by brown dwarf flares, this would have been caused by proto-Saturn's bipolar axial discharge, the southern outburst of which would have been unswervingly targeted toward Earth's north rotational pole. It would have been unlikely, to put it mildly, for Earth not to have succumbed to this direct electro/gravitational discharge.
the Duat was said to have been divided into regions each of which, among other things, was called qerert, an Egyptian word that means "circle."3 Not only was the Duat distinctly said to have also been the realm of Osiris,4 but ____its circular enclosure was additionally said to have been formed from, or by, the god's own bent body during Creation.__5 As the text on the sarcophagus of Seti I explicitly declares, "it is Osiris himself who forms the encircling border of the Tuat."6 And, to be sure, the depiction on Seti's sarcophagus shows Osiris "bent round like a hoop" to form the enclosure of the Duat. The most convincing evidence concerning the identity of the Duat as the god's encirclement of light, however, comes from the hieroglyphic determination of the name Duat itself which is simply depicted as a star surrounded by a circle.7 ... ____the arrets, or halls, of the Duat were seven in number.__10
"In Talmudic tradition," David Rohl tells us, "there are seven heavens (Heb. rakiim) which the deceased must pass through to reach the Throne of Glory (hence the phrase 'seventh heaven', meaning ecstasy)."4 That is exactly what we have already encountered in the Egyptian netherworld known as the Duat. In both cases do we find the underworld in question located in the sky and composed of seven heavenly compartments. In our reconstruction, these seven compartments, normally understood as seven heavens, consisted of ____proto-Saturn's sevenfold spiral that eventually resolved itself into seven separate rings.__
Halos were, as they still are, also known as glories. In the Book of Enoch, God's glory is alluded to as a "flaming fire" that was "round about him." Elsewhere we read of "the glory of the Lord that was like a devouring fire." What is more important is that this ____glory, or halo, was said to have consisted of "seven sheaths of fire__, laid one over another."1
Back in 1977, David Talbott had envisioned an original single ring surrounding the protoSaturnian orb, and a sevenfold encirclement only toward the end of proto-Saturn's celestial reign.4 And, in 1984, I was just as much in error when I stated that "there was first one ring which later split into three and finally evolved into a sevenfold structure."5 As further research has indicated, it now seems clear that ____proto-Saturn's spiraling debris, which itself was described as having consisted of seven coils, resolved itself into just as many separate rings around ... proto-Saturn ... right from the start.__ Talbott had also stated that the multiple bands in question did "not actually revolve around Saturn." They only appeared to do so from Earth's perspective.1 To an extent, this would have been true since, as we have already indicated, ____proto-Saturn's spiraling emission was ejected out of its Earth-facing southern axial pole.__ The spiral would therefore have originally formed beneath proto-Saturn, but, due to perspective, ancient man would have had no way to determine that it was so. However, as we have already indicated, judging by what we see transpiring in supernovae such as that of RS Ophiuchi, as also through one of Kristian Birkeland's terella experiments, ____proto-Saturn's resulting separate rings were eventually captured around it in equatorial orbit.__ ... As of this writing I can safely state that, while proto-Satum's ring system continued to evolve down through the ages, the planet's ____present rings are definitely the evolutionary result of its primordial encirclement.__


114 FLARE STAR _Ra [Saturn] was lauded as having abided within a nest of rings or circles.
73 PRIMORDIAL STAR _The rings of Saturn owe their configuration to a set of "shepherding moons".
34_[Saturn was] surrounded by a nebulous entity, ... a circumstellar disk.
171_[Saturn] was seen to shift. [Observers thought] It had become endowed with life.
172_Other Egyptian texts ... present the deity [Saturn] as having wandered, even if only within a limited area.
173_The [now] shrunken circumstellar disk that encircled [Saturn] ... would have appeared to wander around the sky together with its host [Saturn].
176_[But in reality it was Earth wobbling that made it look like Saturn wandered.] Earth was temporarily dislodged from its primordial axial alignment with proto-Saturn [due to] proto-Saturn's flare-up.
226_Its circular enclosure was additionally said to have been formed from, or by, the god's [Saturn's] own bent body during Creation.
226_The arrets, or halls, of the Duat were seven in number [i.e. the same seven rings of Saturn].
230_Proto-Saturn's sevenfold spiral ... eventually resolved itself into seven separate rings.
234_Glory, or halo, was said to have consisted of "seven sheaths of fire" [same seven rings].
238_Proto-Saturn's spiraling debris, which itself was described as having consisted of seven coils, resolved itself into just as many separate rings around ... proto-Saturn ... right from the start.
238_Proto-Saturn's spiraling emission was ejected out of its Earth-facing southern axial pole.
238_Proto-Saturn's resulting separate rings were eventually captured around it in equatorial orbit.
238_Present rings are definitely the evolutionary result of its primordial encirclement.


BIRTH OF VENUS ... What Cochrane brought to my attention was that the planet Venus was first seen plumb in the centre of the protoSaturnian orb.
The Sumerian priestess Enheduanna [said] in her famous hymn, The Exaltation of Inanna [Venus] [that] it was "the brilliant radiance of Suen," that is Sin, that wrapped the "stature" of the goddess.10 What this claims is that it was not the planet Venus that shed the light in question, but that, in fact, the planet was enveloped in the glorious radiance that was emitted by [Sin, i.e. Saturn].
Once the blazing light that it had shed began to ebb, this primeval sun [Saturn] changed into a brighter version of itself.
The most popular foam goddess that we know of ... is Aphrodite who was described in a ... Homeric Hymn as having been born from the foam of the sea [This was Saturn's circumstellar disk, called a sea, because it looked like a large sea that Saturn was floating on].1 ... It was the visible retraction of proto-Saturn's [plasma column or] axis mundi, that was said to have been responsible for Aphrodite's birth from foam. ... This axial column was [often] understood as the deity's sexual organ,3 while its retraction was seen by some as the self-impregnation of the god or his castration.4 ... The correct tale comes from Hesiod's Theogony where it is told how it was Kronos who castrated his father Ouranos, whose genitals were flung into the sea where they were surrounded with white foam.6 ... Ouranos stood for ... proto-Saturn ... previous to its visible change following its flare-up.... In that respect, his emasculation by Kronos translates as a self castration as it was actually told of the Phrygian Attis,7 the Egyptian Ra,8 the Indic Rudra,9 and Shiva.10 It was from this foam that Aphrodite was said to have been born. In fact, as Macrobius continued to maintain centuries later.1 although quite a few mythologists disagree,2 her name was actually derived from aphros which is the very Greek word for "foam."
The goddess Hathor [i.e. Venus, was] praised as the "lady of heaven, mistress of all the gods, the daughter of Re [Saturn]."2 More than that, she is actually described as she "who came forth" from Re's body,3 thus plainly indicating that ... she appeared to have been spat out by ... proto-Saturn....
The Pelasgian Eurynome who ordered the serpent Ophion to coil seven times around the cosmogonic egg.11 Eurynome herself was claimed to have risen naked from chaos.12 As others would have it, however, she was the daughter of Ocean,13 which amounts to the same thing, since what is meant is the river Okeanos "whose stream bends back in a circle," 14 very much like the serpent Ouroboros.
As in her father's case [i.e. Saturn's], there was more than one serpent, snake, and/or dragon, associated with the goddess [i.e. Venus]. The most prominent of these, however, seems to have been the tail-biting Ouroboros emitted by proto-Saturn that ended up merging with the shrunken circumstellar disk to form the primeval sun's [i.e. Saturn's] encircling rings. In view of the first appearance of the planet Venus plumb in the middle of the proto-Saturnian orb, the spiraling serpentine ring would have been seen by some as having been emitted by the goddess as much as it seemed to have been emitted by the god.
It is ... doubtful that a planet [like Venus], under any condition, could ever electrically discharge in the same manner as a stellar planetary nebula while, despite their much smaller mass, brown dwarfs, which is what proto-Saturn originally was, not only can, but actually do. ... It can now be fairly claimed that the planet Venus was first seen by our ancient ancestors plumb in the centre of their primeval sun [Saturn] once the light from this earlier sun's [Saturn's] tremendous flare-up had ebbed enough to allow looking at without being blinded. What that means is that Venus was caught between Earth and proto-Saturn, sharing the same rotational axis with the both of them.... The subdued redness that had cloaked proto-Saturn prior to its electrical discharge [flare] had first been rendered a bright purple due to the
intense ultra-violet light with which the discharge was imbued. In time, however, proto-Saturn's overall hue seems to have turned into a bright orange and it seems to have been this radical transformation that made Venus appear in contrast against proto-Saturn's newly acquired effulgence. Normally one would think that the much smaller Venus would have looked like a black silhouetted disc against the much brighter proto-Saturnian sphere. There are, however, indications that, at its first appearance, Venus exhibited a reddish hue [because of its high heat?]. ... The name Ninsianna, the same as Inanna, one of the Mesopotamian Venus goddesses, actually means "Red Lady of Heaven."1 -- p.443 -- The Assyrians referred to Ishtar [Venus] as Istar-Sad which translates as the Red Ishtar.2 -- p.444 -- In Egypt, Hathor [Venus] was lauded with the words "O red one."3 -- p.446 -- the Dogon of Mali, in West Africa, believe that Venus "was blood red when she was created," even though, as they claim, its color soon began to fade.1
Venus did not appear as a dark silhouette against the brightened proto-Sauturnian orb because, at its first appearance, it was itself radiating a subdued reddish glow.
In 1994, the Hubble Space Telescope actually showed that various infant stars in the Orion Nebula were really surrounded by such nebulous encirclements, now referred to as circumstellar or protoplanetary disks, otherwise known as proplyds. ... [However] The circumstellar disks appear to be evaporating.
According to Anthony Peratt, the pinched plasmoid that evolved into the planet Venus formed at "the same time as all the others [planets],"5 and that would have included Earth. ... Brown dwarf stars, of which it is now accepted the planet Saturn to have once been, are -- p.454 -- actually misnamed since, in essence, they can be as reddish as their red dwarf brethren. Since, at its first appearance, Venus was also said to have been red, it would not have been visible against proto-Saturn's reddish hue. It would only have become visible after proto-Saturn's change into a brighter orb following its flare-up....
Exactly how long the fully developed Venus, even if still glowing, had been axially stationed beneath proto-Saturn's southern pole, above Earth's northern one [is unknown]. One thing that can, however, be said is that the goddess of that planet, the newly-apparent daughter of the proto-Saturnian deity, did not take long to bear an offspring of her own, a sacred son who was soon to challenge his own father. [The son was Mars.]


-1- Before the flare-up, Saturn was a dim red color and Venus was the same color and in front of Saturn but couldn't be distinguished, so it was "invisible".
-2- Saturn's disk was already there and looked like a foamy ocean that Saturn floated on.
-3- The plasma column was already seen connected to Saturn.
-4- Earth was temporarily unstable and wobbled, which made it appear that Saturn was wandering.
-5- The plasma column retracted, then Saturn flared up and became too bright to look at.
-6- Saturn's brightness subsided, but Saturn remained brighter & larger than before the flare-up, while the disk looked smaller.
-7- Two filaments emitted from the face of Saturn and spiraled outward from opposite sides and eventually formed 7 equatorial rings.
-8- Venus appeared in front of Saturn a dim red color, while Saturn became a bright orange.
-9- Presumably Venus changed color too, so Mars became visible in front of Venus.
Did I leave anything out?

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Feb 14, 2023 2:56 am



I have a new post on that at https://cataclysmicearthhistory.substac ... ioactivity with a good map of Earth's radioactivity that's included.

I started with Charles Chandler's finding that the SOLAR SYSTEM IS UNDER 400 MILLION YEARS OLD at . He reasoned that the radioactive decay rate was faster when Earth was much hotter, as heat affects the decay rate. But I think it may have been hotter than what he figured, so Earth could be much younger still, though I don't insist on that. It's just the surface that's more definitely young, especially the sedimentary rock. After quoting from Charles, I quoted a article from an early post in this thread at ... =375#p3653 . Their finding was that Earth's granite basement rock is less than 8,000 years old.

From this early post at ... =180#p2109 I quote from Walter Brown's discussion of the origin of Earth's radioactivity. From it I initially got the impression that continental sliding/drift after the asteroid impact at the Pangaea breakup caused high ionization and radioactivity, but in the radioactivity map at ... vity2.html there's no more radioactivity from the Atlantic and Indian Ocean basins, than from the Pacific, and they're all about a third as radioactive as the continents, so it appears that the sliding of the continents on the Moho layer did not cause Earth's radioactivity.

I quoted from this article which came to that conclusion: ... te-impacts

That conclusion came from this article:
I said the article seems to suggest that the lower crust is less radioactive because of the higher heat, which makes metamorphic rock. But that wouldn’t explain the lower radioactivity in the ocean basalt crust. And the it doesn’t seem to explain the origin of the radioactive elements in the upper continental crust.
The same radioactivity map as above is at
It's interesting that the map shows more radioactivity in North America and Eurasia and a little less on the other continents, while the ocean basins have much less. And the Himalayas and Alps seem to have the most natural radioactivity. Those two mountain ranges likely have much thicker crust and the extra thickness seems to result in greater radioactivity.

That's from the article, Natural Radioactivity in the Geologic Environment, at ... nviron.pdf
I figure that the lower radioactivity in limestone, gypsum, salt, quartzite & marble is mostly due to forming from seawater. Lower radioactivity in basalt was due to early Earth's condition.

The reason most radioactivity is in granite, shale, phosphate and coal is because the granite continents have higher radioactivity & shale & phosphate must have formed mainly from continental granite. (Shale formed as mud on the continental shelf or slope of Pangaea, then the Great Flood washed most of the mud back onto Pangaea where it became shale or mudstone.) Coal formed from plants which grew from the breakdown products of the continental granite. And the reason the continents have higher radioactivity is because they formed from a really large highly radioactive object, larger than the Moon. So it looks like Pangaea formed from a very huge asteroid and then later, during the Great Flood, a smaller asteroid, but still big at over 50 miles in diameter, impacted Pangaea and split it into numerous islands and continents.

I quoted from The Recency of the Surface, by de Grazia:
"Jean Perrin, as noted by Baranov [11], has gone farther than Cook to argue that radioactive decay is not spontaneous, but is caused by ultrahard radiation coming in from exoterrestrial sources. That is why "natural" radioactivity is concentrated within the crust of the Earth. We have stressed that exoterrestrial bombardments of the Earth by particles from nova explosions and other sources of hard radiation have been repeatedly experienced by the crustal rocks of the Earth. The present state of the Earth must be receiving a small fraction of its historical radiation."

That could have happened from a Saturn nova before the Pangaea breakup, if Saturn was directly above Pangaea. But I guess it's more likely that a radioactive asteroid formed Pangaea, although a Saturn nova may be what made the asteroid more radioactive than the Earth was before Pangaea formed. PS, I don't know about the permafrost. That should have formed after the Great Flood.

So the remaining mystery is, how does a huge asteroid become highly radioactive, or how does a nova make an asteroid highly radioactive, and did Saturn (or Jupiter) do the nova thing to it?

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:04 am



To clarify my previous post, it seems that Pangaea must have formed from a very large moon-sized asteroid impact. The asteroid must have been 3 times as radioactive as Earth before the supercontinent formed. If Pangaea received the higher concentration of radioactivity from a Saturn or Jupiter nova event, it likely did so when it was an asteroid before it impacted on the Earth, not after, otherwise, some of the oceanic crust would likely have also been radiated from the nova debris.

Shale is said to have higher levels of radioactivity too, which means it likely eroded as mud from the supercontinent onto the continental shelf. The Great Flood then washed most of it back onto the supercontinent before the latter broke apart toward the end of the Flood.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JoeB » Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:36 am

Lloyd wrote:
Sat Feb 18, 2023 3:04 am


To clarify my previous post, it seems that Pangaea must have formed from a very large moon-sized asteroid impact. The asteroid must have been 3 times as radioactive as Earth before the supercontinent formed. If Pangaea received the higher concentration of radioactivity from a Saturn or Jupiter nova event, it likely did so when it was an asteroid before it impacted on the Earth, not after, otherwise, some of the oceanic crust would likely have also been radiated from the nova debris.

Shale is said to have higher levels of radioactivity too, which means it likely eroded as mud from the supercontinent onto the continental shelf. The Great Flood then washed most of it back onto the supercontinent before the latter broke apart toward the end of the Flood.
This is just controlled opposition posting nonsense.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by JoeB » Tue Feb 21, 2023 2:00 am

There never was a supercontinent. Earth grew. The ocean floor is all less than 180 million years old. It's new, and it's gradually newer from the coast to the center, so it is obvious when the new material was created.

Just look up age of the lithosphere and compare it to the time frame that dinosaurs and all animals gradually got smaller due to increased gravity.

Pretty simple.

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