Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Sep 22, 2022 6:54 pm

208325

ATLANTIC OCEAN BASIN FORMATION

Re the last post at https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum3/ph ... =705#p7881
Brigit said: I am not sure it would be polite for me to come over here and challenge his premises, or present a completely different hypothesis for the mid-ocean ridges and mountain formation.
I'm interested in the truth. So don't be timid. But also don't expect ready agreement. E.g., what formula would be needed to determine the maximum charge possible on planets and stars and the largest electric discharge possible? Then we could begin to determine what conditions, if any, would have made possible electrical carving of the Atlantic and Indian Ocean basins. Unless you have a different idea in mind. Otherwise, that would just be the beginning of the discussion. PS, might as well add Grand Canyon and Valles Marineris formation as well.

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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit » Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:52 pm

Lloyd says »
Wed Sep 14, 2022 7:26 pm
"PANGAEA_ATLANTIC. Brigit also said, "Regarding the planet's surface features, I think that everything was formed right where it is."

My guess is that she means she subscribes to Wal Thornhill's theory that the Atlantic Ocean was carved out by an extremely large electric discharge.That would mean Pangaea was initially a larger landmass and that the land which was removed from the Atlantic Ocean basin ended up somewhere else.


No, that is not at all congruent with what has been published by the EU on the formation of the continents and the ocean basins. I already provided a reference and pointed that out.

Lloyd says, "E.g., what formula would be needed to determine the maximum charge possible on planets and stars and the largest electric discharge possible? Then we could begin to determine what conditions, if any, would have made possible electrical carving of the Atlantic and Indian Ocean basins."


This appears to be a restatement of what you already asserted -- and which I already addressed.

What they have said is that the continents and ocean basins were the original structures on the surface of the earth, when it was formed by a powerful electrical z-pinch. Hope that clarifies the difference.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:01 am

208362

I'll reply to Brigit after this.

NOTES ON 2 MORE GREAT FLOOD VIDEOS

90 Minutes of Geological Evidence for Noah's Flood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=882fmumdm9A&t=186s

UNUSUAL ROCK STRATA
_At 13'30" Kurt Wise shows sedimentary rock being 47% shale, 22% limestone, 19% sandstone, [12% other]
_At 15'8" there are some odd features in the geologic column. Near the bottom in the "azoic" (rock layer with only microscopic fossils) is BIF, banded iron formation. 99.9% of mined iron is from BIF. Black shales are also odd and are found in the Devonian and the Cretaceous and are mined for oil and gas.
_At 18'20" worldwide phosphates are odd in their abundance and they're minable in the Permian. In the Permian/Triassic are unusual very thick sands and red shales. These sands include the Sahara Desert sands and form the structures of Petra and the Sphinx. Cretaceous chalk is also odd, hundreds of feet thick nearly worldwide made of microscopic shell fossils.

WATER CURRENT DIRECTIONS BEFORE, DURING & AFTER THE GREAT FLOOD - HUGE LUNAR TIDE
_At 35' the bottom azoic part of the column shows water currents in all directions. The top of the column is similar, showing currents in the U.S. going down the Mississippi River basin in the center, and draining east on the east coast and west on the west coast. But during the Great Flood the currents ran from east to west across all the continents. A guess is that the Moon pulled the Flood waters that way.

LAMINATED VS BIOTURBATED STRATA
_At 38'50" Great Flood rocks are laminated, but modern rocks are bioturbated, which destroys lamination, down to as much as 30'.

STRATA SEQUENCES
_At 48'30" megasequences have conglomerates at the bottom, then coarse sandstone to fine sandstone to siltstone to clay and finally carbonate (limestone, dolomite etc) at the top. The blue in the Sloss diagram indicates sediment thickness in the U.S. Orange indicates no sediment. The blue is thickest on the coasts. The Tejas is mixed up, unlike the earlier sequences.

POWER OF FLOOD SHEET EROSION
_At 1h1' Shinomu quartzite, a very hard rock layer in the Grand Canyon protrudes a few hundred feet into the Sauk from below the unconformity, which is otherwise flat for many hundreds of miles across the U.S. Shinomu boulders up to 50 feet in diamter are in the base of the Sauk just west of the protrusion, having likely been broken off of the protrusion by the Flood waters.

UNUSUAL STRATA FORMED BY MICRO-ORGANISMS
_At 1h3' the carbonates are micritic, made of micron sized particles, but modern carbonates contain millimeter size particles or bigger. Micritic is produced by bacteria. It cannot be produced by grinding fossil shells. The Flood conditions were apparently perfect for microbial (albal or bacterial) blooms.
_At 1h8'40" the BIFs may also have been produced by bacteria. The black shale may have come from anaerobic bacteria under the floating forests of the Flood. The Cretaceous chalk is also likely an algal bloom of the Flood that used oxygen, making Flood waters underneath anoxic, which killed marine life, which formed black shale on the bottom.

NAUTILOIDS IN UNDERWATER LANDSLIDE
_At 1h18'20" 350 miles of nautiloids are in middle of a 6 foot thick carbonate layer, 3 feet of carbonate above and below the nautiloid layer, caused by an underwater landslide, a deep underwater clastic flow, moving 100 mph and deposited in seconds, ending near Las Vegas. Most of the rock record seems to have been deposited in that same way.

SANDWAVES & PHOSPHATES
_At 1h26' some sandstone started as sandwaves 200 feet high that made 90 foot high cross beds. They formed underwater by fast moving water 1,000 feet deep.
_At 1h29' global phosphate layer must have formed by ocean bottom upwelling of nutrients during the Flood. The Permo-Triassic is the top of marine deposits topped with fossils from floating forests.

The Best movie explaining Noah's Flood Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yydjnRmzC4

ANIMALS ON NOAH'S ARK MAY HAVE HIBERNATED
Most of the animals on the ark could have hibernated to solve a lot of problems
_At 16'50" Psalm 104:8 says mountains formed rapidly at the end of the Flood.

CONTINENTAL DRIFT, IRIDIUM, DIPPING STRATA, OROGENESIS
_At 20'50" the Atlantic and Indian Ocean floors solidified after continental drift by water cooling the magma from the continental shores toward the middle.
_At 26'30" magma can't come from more than 400 km deep, followed by deep subduction.
_At 31'10" iridium came from volcanoes during the Great Flood, not from impacts, because iridium followed wind patterns, not impact sites.
_At 53' strata machine shows dipping strata caused by dipping water current, not necessarily impacts etc.
_At 58'38" demo of sand model of mountain formation from colliding continents.
_At 1h7'30" different fossils buried in different strata at the same time are the same age.

HUMAN & DINOSAUR FOSSILS TOGETHER
_At 1h39' the Ashley Phosphate beds of South Carolina contain dinosaur, mammal and human fossils all together in an 18" thick rock layer. See also https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNlBh4qNBXg and https://www.genesispark.com/exhibits/fossils/graveyards

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:31 am

OCEAN BASINS FORMED FROM Z-PINCH OR CONTINENTAL DRIFT

In a post on the previous page, Brigit said:
"... Earth probably suffered the massive ocean basin carving as a feature of its birth."

It is "a feature of its birth". That is, the abyss and the continents are very possibly the original structure of the earth's surface.

People who choose to start with a supercontinent as a starting point have done so arbitrarily, in my view. It is probably an artifact of the fit between some of the continents, and also a reliance on skidding plates to get mountains, and most of all, a result of the theory that earth was formed by some form of accretion.
I was involved in a discussion with Thornhill and Cardona about ten years ago and I believe Thornhill said then that the Atlantic was likely carved out by a huge electric discharge that started at one of Earth's poles and ended near the other pole. I think he also suggested that the discharge pulverized the crustal material and spread it out over the adjacent continental landmasses, forming the sedimentary rock strata. I then said it may be possible to decide which theory is more likely correct, Thornhill's or continental drift, by seeing whether the rock strata and fossils on opposite shores of the Atlantic match or do not match. If they match, it would be because the continents were previously connected and then somehow moved apart. If they don't match, it could be because of Thornhill's electric discharge. Cardona then commented that the strata and fossils on opposite shores do indeed match. And now Jack Okie has provided a link to a related finding.

Now you're saying what? The Z-pinch misformed Earth, whereas all of the other planets formed without ocean basins from the same sort of Z-pinch? (The Z-pinch is a magnetic constricting force, is it not?) If this occurred when the Earth was first formed, wasn't the Earth molten at that time? And wouldn't the continents have immediately flowed into the ocean basins, filling them up? And why would the continents on opposite shores of the Atlantic have matching rock strata and fossils and whatever Jack said? And where is lab evidence and physics formulas to back up the E.D. or Z-pinch theory?

PS, I don't favor gravitational accretion, but Charles Chandler's electrical accretion, or electrically imploding interstellar filament. See http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=12692

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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit » Fri Sep 23, 2022 1:59 am

Lloyd says, "I was involved in a discussion with Thornhill and Cardona about ten years ago and I believe Thornhill said then that the Atlantic was likely carved out by a huge electric discharge that started at one of Earth's poles and ended near the other pole. I think he also suggested that the discharge pulverized the crustal material and spread it out over the adjacent continental landmasses, forming the sedimentary rock strata."

I have never seen these private correspondences.

Here is the primary published source I am referencing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kff_ytg ... 4T&index=4
39:46 "Why continents and oceans?"

  • "And the first question is: Why continents and oceans of water?

    There's no other body in the solar system with continents and oceanic type basins like the Earth.
    • Each planet has its own story of electrical birth and the scars of interplanetary thunderbolts in order to achieve orbitals' harmony.

      Electrical sculpting of planetary features is the most powerful concept missing from planetary scientists' toolkit.
    • And I would suggest that the Earth probably suffered the massive ocean basin carving as a feature of its birth."
    Now however you view the formation of rocky bodies in the solar system, when it comes to earth, people (and yourself also) begin at some starting point. The initial conditions, if I understand the models you and others have presented, include 1. a lower elevation surface (ocean abyssal plains); 2. a higher elevation surface (a supercontinent); 3. a force which either slowly or rapidly splits apart the paleocontinent; and 4. a force which moves the resulting pieces of the supercontinent away from each other and atop the oceanic crust.

    We've already parted ways with these initial conditions.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:09 am

Brigit said: Here is the primary published source I am referencing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kff_ytg ... 4T&index=4
The video is divided into sections at the bottom of the video. The relevant section seems to be Birth of Rocky Planets at the 21'30" mark. But I don't hear him say anything there about formation of the ocean basins or the continents.

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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit » Fri Sep 23, 2022 3:59 am

The time stamp is directly below the link. --And I'm sure the other chapter you mentioned gives additional context, too.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Sep 24, 2022 12:33 am

208508

EDM FORMATION OF CONTINENTS & OCEAN BASINS

@ Brigit. Sorry, I overlooked the time you listed. I listened now, but it doesn't explain things much. I think he's saying about the same thing there that he said before in a private discussion that I described above. Do you want to write a transcript of about 2 minutes of the video that you referenced to discuss? Or have you or someone else discussed it on another thread that you could copy here?

I did a search now and found this. Do you want to discuss that discussion?
_This thread from 2016-2017 by Robertus Maximus discussed EDM formation of Earth's surface. The thread was titled: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =4&t=16534
_Mo started discussing electric discharge forming the Atlantic seafloor in this post.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 15#p117223
_Webolife joined in discussing Mo's idea in the next post on page 3.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 30#p117227
_In this late post RM said the following.
https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... 90#p120196
_The problem faced by Plate Tectonicists is that Earth is the only terrestrial planet in the solar system where Plate Tectonics is supposedly happening, Mercury, Venus, Mars and the Moon have all been mapped to a degree at which we would expect to see surface features associated with tectonic movements- if Plate Tectonics was occurring or had occurred on these worlds. But, the evidence is absent.

MY COMMENT: What the other terrestrial planets also don't have is a Moho layer and a large Moon. The Moon produces Earth's Moho layer. Charles Chandler found that the Moho should be an ionized supercritical frictionless fluid about one meter thick, caused by the lunar tides. See http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=11093 . Catastrophist Peter James proclaimed some years before Charles developed his own model that the Moho is plasma. Plasma is ionized frictionless fluid. This fluid only some 35 km below the surface of the continents makes it fairly easy for a huge impact to break apart a supercontinent and scatter the parts in all directions, sliding long distances on the frictionless Moho. Why was there a supercontinent in the first place? It may have formed from an earlier and much larger impact of a granitic body, which may also have formed the Moon.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Sep 24, 2022 1:49 am

LAST NOTES FROM NOAH'S FLOOD VIDEO IN 2 PARTS

The Best movie explaining Noah's Flood Ever made
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRoQL7W5jg8
__[TEJAS, BIOTURBATION & FOSSIL TRACKS]
_At 30'58" the Tejas started to form as Flood waters reversed flow direction and eroded away some of the previoius deposits. The Tejas deposited Powder River coal beds in Montana and Wyoming.
_At 35'45" the Flood deposits happened so fast and deep that burrowing creatures had no time to cause significant bioturbation.
_At 37'30" tracks of trilobites, dinosaurs, birds, salamanders etc are found in deeper strata than the fossils of the creatures themselves, because most of them moved atop each stratum as it was deposited, leaving their tracks under the deposits, until the later deposits became too deep for them to climb out of.
__[TIAHAUANCO BUILT AFTER THE GREAT FLOOD]
_At 42'6" Lake Titicaca is discussed.
_At 46'50" Puma Punku near the Lake is said to be a pre-Flood structure, but that would be only if it was built on basement rock, not Flood sedimentary rock. See https://creation.com/the-mystery-of-ancient-man ]. This https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Str ... _332081782 indicates that the area is on sedimentary rock, i.e. the La Paz Formation of Mio-Pleistocene sediments. Therefore, Puma Punku and Tiahuanaco could not have been built till after the Great Flood deposited the sediments.
__[DROP STONES OF NOAH'S ARK]
_At 55' huge drop stones with holes for ropes are found in a straight line for 8 miles approaching Mt. Ararat. They were likely used to keep the ark upright on wavy seas. A petrified bark is found which may have covered the ark.
__[MISSING PLANT FOSSILS; HUMAN HAPLOGROUPS]
_At 59'35" vegetation fossils are scarce in many strata, including dinosaur strata.
_Later is something about 3 haplogroups from the 3 sons of Noah.

The Best movie explaining Noah's Flood Part 2 [continued from recent post]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yydjnRmzC4
__[BETTER DNA, LONG LIFE, GOLDEN AGE, GENEALOGIES]
_At 1h56' early ancestors may have had more DNA & able to live much longer.
_At 1h57' they lived with and even ate giant long-lived creatures. A cave painting shows a giant sloth or something.
_At 2h2'30" other cultures said the ancients lived in a Golden Age.
_At 2h2'47" telomeres get shorter every generation, indicating longer life in ancient times with longer telomeres.
_At 2h3'10" some genealogies go back to Noah: 15th Century Lambeth Palace MS 1170 & 1171 >Adam. Anglo-Saxon chronologies feature 6 Royal Houses going back to Noah. Some European genealogies have a variant of Sceaf, but Irish use the name Japheth. An 8th Century Welsh monk, Nennius of Powys, had a table of people groups descended from Japheth: Gauls, Goths, Bavarians, Saxons and Romans.
_At 2h13'30" Y-chromosomal Noah and Mitochondrial other species go back to Noah's Ark or the Flood.

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Brigit
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Brigit » Sun Sep 25, 2022 11:51 pm

Lloyd says »
OCEAN BASINS FORMED FROM Z-PINCH, OR CONTINENTAL DRIFT?
  • Now you're saying what? The Z-pinch misformed Earth, whereas all of the other planets formed without ocean basins from the same sort of Z-pinch?
  • (The Z-pinch is a magnetic constricting force, is it not?)
  • If this occurred when the Earth was first formed, wasn't the Earth molten at that time?
    And why would the continents on opposite shores of the Atlantic have matching rock strata and fossils and whatever Jack said?
  • And where is lab evidence and physics formulas to back up the E.D. or Z-pinch theory?


Lloyd says »
"HUMAN HAPLOGROUPS
  • _Later is something about 3 haplogroups
  • _At 2h13'30" Y-chromosomal and Mitochondrial [DNA testing]"


Lloyd says »
"I did a search now and found this. Do you want to discuss that discussion?
  • _This thread from 2016-2017 by Robertus Maximus discussed EDM formation of Earth's surface. The thread was titled: An Alternative to Plate and Expansion Tectonics
    https://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/php ... =4&t=16534
These are all exactly the subjects I care very deeply about. Thank you for bringing them up. They would be lost on an 80-odd page thread though.

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Brigit
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The Song of Deborah

Unread post by Brigit » Mon Sep 26, 2022 12:20 am

JP Michael says »
Sun Sep 18, 2022 4:31 am
"I agree in your belief that there were significant cataclysmic events post-Flood (the Bible mentions at least 3 major ones: Sodom, Exodus, Conquest, and multiple significant ones, e.g. Judges 5; 1 & 2 Samuel passim; Isaiah 24-27; Joel 2; Habbakkuk 3; Psalms 18, 29, 97, 114, etc). I'll get back to compiling my full list of biblical references and post it in this thread."

Very interesting.

I personally, for a long time, thought that after the early chapters in Genesis, the planetary migrations in the solar system were finished; also, I certainly would not include Exodus in any planetary events.

But like you, I see a planetary orbital change in Judges Chapter 5.

Now: There is so much more to it than that, because Deborah was a great Judge in Israel, and she is a spiritual and political counterpoint to the Pharaoh Ramses, who is her contemporary in Egypt.

Her song is extraordinary, and expresses far more important themes and historical realities. The astronomical events in the sky pale to almost no significance in comparison.

But among other things, Deborah's song does say,
  • "They fought from the heavens;
    The stars from their courses fought against Sisera.
    The torrent of Kishon swept them away,
    That ancient torrent, the torrent of Kishon.
    O my soul, march on in strength!"
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Oct 01, 2022 11:51 pm

210410

ANCIENT ADVANCED CIVILIZATION

The mystery of ancient man
https://creation.com/the-mystery-of-ancient-man
__[NOAH'S ARK WAS ADVANCED TECH]
_First, it was sufficient for Noah and his helpers to be able to build a huge ocean-going vessel. The Ark measured approximately 135 metres (450 feet) long, 23 metres (75 feet) wide and 13 metres (45 feet) tall (Genesis 6:15). We know that these proportions were ideal for stability.2 This colossal task would have required advanced knowledge in engineering, not to mention timber-working techniques....
_Second, we can get some indication from the level of technology in those civilizations which sprang up rapidly after the Flood. Noah and his family would have tried to carry with them as much know-how as they could, to survive, and restart civilization in the ‘new world’ for which they were headed.
_The Bible records that soon after the Flood, mankind built a huge city. This was in the fertile river valley of Mesopotamia, around present-day Iraq. [Archeologists] generally refer to this area as the ‘cradle of civilization’. Which it was - but only for the post - Flood world.
__[[On Sep 23 I paraphrased from this video https://youtube.com/watch?v=hRoQL7W5jg8 as follow. [DROP STONES OF NOAH'S ARK] At 55' huge drop stones with holes for ropes are found in a straight line for 8 miles approaching Mt. Ararat. They were likely used to keep the ark upright on wavy seas. {See demonstration of how drop stones would have kept the ark from capsizing in rough seas at 55'55".}]]
__[BABEL DISPERSAL DUE TO CATASTROPHE]
_The tower of Babel (Genesis 11:1–9) was probably a ziggurat, or the first type of pyramid, like others still standing in the area (around present-day Babylon). Similar styles of pyramids are found in ancient civilizations all around the world. ... it seems more sensible to suggest that they are similar because they all came from the same origin - Babel.
_As with any group of people in society today, those that existed at the time of the Tower of Babel would have had a diverse range of skills. Some were builders, some artists, and others farmers. However, when God divided the groups by language, the broad pool of knowledge was divided also. [Velikovsky had a plausible theory that a catastrophe caused the confusion of speech via electrical effects on people's brains. My guess is that, if Babel was real, the catastrophe occurred during the Younger Dryas event.] The original groups that became, for example, the civilizations of the Egyptians and Mayans obviously included people skilled in civil engineering, building, and so on, as evidenced by the rapid establishment of their cultures. Other groups would have lacked such knowledge.
_Imagine if you and your extended family were suddenly forced to migrate rapidly into an unpopulated wilderness. Even though you come from a society with great technology, it is likely that your family group would not carry all of the necessary knowledge with you to, for example, be able to find ore-bodies, and smelt and work metals. So you might choose to use stone tools to survive.
__[CAVE MEN WERE ADVANCED TOO]
_Cave men. After the Flood, some groups chose to shelter in caves. In harsher climates, these would have provided more protection than artificial dwellings. However, this does not make their inhabitants ‘primitive’ or unintelligent. Some people today choose an alternate lifestyle away from cities, in surroundings that could be considered ‘primitive’, without being any less intelligent than others. The typical ‘cave-man’ is portrayed as a hairy, dim-witted, brutish creature. However, many cave paintings reveal a skill equivalent to that of some of the greatest artists of modern times. Recently, surprised scientists have even found ‘stone-age’ musical instruments, revealing a high level of understanding and musical ability.3
_It is easy to see how many skills would be lost if people were broken into isolated small groups today. For example, one such group may have farmers and architects, but no mechanics, geologists, or blacksmiths. That group would know of the mechanic’s skill but not how to apply it. Similarly after Babel, those groups fortunate enough to carry the broadest range of skills would be able to transplant their previous culture rapidly. It would look as if it had sprung up ‘overnight’.
__[POST-FLOOD PEOPLE INHERITED PRE-FLOOD KNOWLEDGE]
_‘The archaeological evidence suggested that rather than developing slowly and painfully, as is normal with human societies, the civilization of Ancient Egypt, like that of the Olmecs, emerged all at once and fully formed. Indeed, the period of transition from primitive to advanced society appears to have been so short that it makes no kind of historical sense. ‘Technological skills that should have taken hundreds or even thousands of years to evolve were brought into use almost overnight, and with no apparent antecedents whatever.5
_Some of those groups which found themselves forced to use stone technology would have gained other knowledge in time, while we see cultures today which are still quite content to use stone tools. They are, however, fully human and intelligent. There is also evidence that cultures can lose technology. In ancient Egypt, the early pyramids were the best, with the quality declining until they were no longer built. As one secular researcher observed: ‘The pyramid age had come to an end, having lasted for a little more than a century. Pyramids were still being erected for about a thousand years, but they rapidly became smaller and shoddier, and it is quite clear that with the third Giza pyramid the zest had gone out of pyramid building forever.’6
_Massive buildings and ingenious solutions. On a windswept plateau, 3,900 metres (13,000 feet) high near the Bolivian shore of Lake Titicaca in South America lies the ancient city of Tiahuanaco. It was a majestic ruin even when the ancient Incas arrived there. Sixteenth century Spanish treasure-hunters didn’t believe the local Indian tradition that Tiahuanaco sprang up very rapidly, after a great Flood, built by unknown giants. Today the remains of immense statues and stones lie strewn over the landscape. A Reader’s Digest author commented, ‘… the best engineers of today still ask themselves whether they could cut and move huge masses of rock such as those used to build the city. The giant blocks look almost as though a die were used to cut them—a task achieved with none of the resources of modern technology’7 and ‘… the architects who designed and built them were men of genius.’8
__[[Again in my second post on Sep 23 I paraphrased from the video at https://youtube.com/watch?v=hRoQL7W5jg8 as follows. [TIAHAUANCO BUILT AFTER THE GREAT FLOOD] At 42'6" Lake Titicaca is discussed. At 46'50" Puma Punku near the Lake is said to be a pre-Flood structure, but that would be only if it was built on basement rock, not Flood sedimentary rock. See https://creation.com/the-mystery-of-ancient-man ]. This https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Str ... _332081782 indicates that the area is on sedimentary rock, i.e. the La Paz Formation of Mio-Pleistocene sediments. Therefore, Puma Punku and Tiahuanaco could not have been built till after the Great Flood deposited the sediments.]]
_Many of the structures from the ancient world have stood for thousands of years in relatively good condition. Would our 20th century buildings still be standing in thousands of years?

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Oct 10, 2022 12:33 am

211466

AGE LIMITS OF EARTH'S & MARS' ATMOSPHERES ETC
ALSO BELOW EVIDENCE OF WHEN MASORETIC BIBLE WAS CORRUPTED


AGE LIMITS OF THE EARTH'S BIOSPHERE
https://saturniancosmology.org/files/th ... 997.03.txt
_By Dr. Robert W. Bass
_Cook is the author of the highly-scientific, very quantitative, and very difficult to read book "Prehistory & Earth Models" (PEM) published in London by Max Parrish & Co in 1966, but now out of print. The book is highly condensed ... but ... in my opinion extremely valuable.
_In 1993 Dr. Cook (a retired Prof. of Metallurgy at the U of Utah) updated PEM by a new book "Scientific Prehistory", 336 pages, many photos, tables, drawings, and graphs, Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 93-74404. This is a leather-covered hardbound book. Cook had 150 copies printed and placed in 150 libraries so it CAN be borrowed, but I don't believe that any copies are available for sale.
_In December, 1993, Cook put out a 15-page privately-printed paper which summarizes the main findings (especially the main NOVEL findings in comparison to PEM) of his new book.
_Cook has chapters on ALL of the radiometric dating methods, and in my opinion, demolishes them all. He also computes that IF the cosmic rays are in "nuclear thermodynamic equilibrium" (NTE) then the Solar System and Earth are about 4.5 billion years old.
_However, the surface features of the Earth cannot possibly be more than 100,000 years old for many reasons. For example (& the Editor of "Nature" admitted that this is the biggest anomaly which ever crossed his desk) the radiogenic helium escaping from the Earth's crust at a known rate and escaping into outer space at a known rate "prove" that the present atmosphere cannot be more than 100,000 years old.
_See "Where is the earth's radiogenic helium?," _Nature_, vol. 177 (1957), p. 215.
_Also, radiocarbon is being produced in the stratosphere at a rate TWENTY FIVE PERCENT discrepant with its well-measured absorption into the hydrosphere, lithosphere & biosphere; Cook once showed me correspondence that he had with Willard Libby over 25 years wherein Libby finally admitted he was wrong, the discrepancy is REAL and cannot be ignored. The deduction is that the Earth's atmosphere cannot be more than 30,000 years old, else it would have attained equilibrium already, which it has NOT! In Cook's view, the radiocarbon balance in the earth's atmosphere has attained 73 percent of its equilibrium value in the approximately 5,000 years "since the Flood."
_Physicist Dr. Larry Vardiman has jumped onto the helium-escape problem, and written a 32-page mathematical paper: THE AGE OF THE EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE: a Study of the Helium Flux through the Atmosphere, 1990 in which he reviews in detail dozens of mainstream attempts to explain away the anomaly, and satisfied me (as a professional mathematician who checked his differential equations) that they have failed, and that the present atmosphere could have been produced in at most 2 million years. (This of course is 2,500 TIMES shorter than the uniformitarian age of the earth.) He quotes mainstream experts as admitting that "this helium escape problem will not go away, and it is unsolved."

Here's a link to The Age of the Earth’s Atmosphere Estimated by its Helium Content
http://static.icr.org/i/pdf/technical/T ... ontent.pdf

The following are some similar but brief search results from https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... zoom_query
If I get time, I can look up more info from these later.

Scientific Prehistory [Book]
_A Sequel of Prehistory and Earth Models, Melvin A. Cook, Chairman, Cook Associates, Inc.
_helium through the exosphere showing it would take a billion years to loose all helium now in the atmosphere I showed, however, that about 4000 times as much He should be entering the atmosphere from leakage from the crust.(Appendix I and my January 1957 paper in Nature) From this result I concluded that the upper limit of the age of the atmosphere from helium exudation alone is about 100,000 years ignoring all sources of He, aside from exudation from the crust. Some of these other sources, particularly micrometeorites, GCR and secondary nuclide reactions are large enough to reduce this upper limit substantially. Indeed the atmosphere is probably either holding its own or increasing in He
_from the atmosphere, a maximum age can be calculated for the atmosphere of 10,000 to 100,000 years. A calculation of the present run-off of uranium in rivers compared with the abundance in ocean sediments suggests an age for the oceans of 100,000 to 1,000,000 years. Moreover, calculations on the quantities

Collapsing Tests of Time [de Grazia books]
_of the lithosphere require that 10^20 grams of helium should have been released into the atmosphere whereupon some of it would escape into outer space. However, the rate of escape is too slow under solarian conditions to explain why so little helium exists in the atmosphere. Given the amount of helium present there, it has been calculated that the age of the atmosphere must be only 12,000 years [37]. That is, some 12,000 years ago, the atmosphere was reconstituted. Radioactivity was discovered a century ago but time-measures of radioactivity are largely a post-World War II development. Despite the shortness of its life, changes in the field have been numerous and radical

Evidence of Careenings of the Globe [Books]
_From: Cataclysms of the Earth by Hugh Auchincloss Brown.
_This figure, however, is subject to correction. When at Lewiston the Falls were approximately 280 feet higher than they are now, and this indicates that the estimated age of the Niagara River is about 7,000 years. A diminution of forty feet in the perpendicular height of the Falls for every mile that they receded southward is

Mars in Upheaval [Journals] [Aeon]
_From: Aeon I:4 (Jul 1988) Charles Ginenthal.
_years old and thus deny Velikovsky's hypothesis. We, however, will show that Mars' craters could not have ages of even millions of years or hundred of thousand of years, but are only a few thousand years old at


EVIDENCE OF WHEN MASORETIC BIBLE WAS CORRUPTED

Julius Africanus, Septuagint & Masoretic Chronology since the Creation of the World c. 5500 BC
http://www.bible.ca/manuscripts/Julius- ... -221AD.htm
1. Julius Africanus Sextus grew up on Jerusalem and was highly educated.
a. Julius Africanus Sextus created a detailed chronology from Creation to the year 221 AD.
b. His chronological numbers are an exact match to the LXX yet we know he was following the Hebrew Masoretic text because he does not include Cainan.
c. Cainan is found in the New Testament and the LXX Tanakh but not in the Masoretic.
d. This proves that as late as 221 AD the accepted numbers in the Hebrew text had not yet been corrupted and changed by the Jews as witnessed in the modern Masoretic text.
2. In 221 AD, Julius Africanus Sextus was using the Hebrew Masoretic text whose numbers agreed with the longer chronological numbers in the Septuagint exactly and not the shorter numbers in today’s Masoretic Text.
a. He told us he was using a Hebrew not Greek text.
b.His chronology did not include Cainan, which the LXX does include and the modern MT does not.
c. Julius Africanus Sextus calculated creation in 5500 BC.
d.Julius Africanus Sextus also correctly interpreted the end of the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 to happen at the resurrection of Christ.
e.The Hebrew text that Julius Africanus Sextus had before him are identical to the LXX and divergent from the modern Masoretic MT.
f. The fact that Julius Africanus Sextus was using a HEBREW text and not the Greek Septuagint (LXX) is powerful evidence that at this point in history, the numbers in the MT were identical to the LXX.
g. This shows that the corruption of the chronological numbers in the MT text was either very recent in the past (150 AD) or that it was soon to happen.
h.It is also possible that Julius Africanus Sextus produced this chronology from one of the uncorrupted original Hebrew (proto-Masoretic) texts in protest to the new revision by the Jewish corrupters in an effort to counter Christianity.
i. “Fragment 15 reads: “. . . and from their remaining Hebrew histories, they [the Jews] have handed down a period of 5500 years up to the advent of the Word of salvation [Christ] . . .” (Wallraff, Roberto, and Pinggera 2007, 25). Africanus resided in Israel most of his life, and had knowledge of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew. He even refers to Hebrew as “our” way of speaking (Wallraff, Roberto, and Pinggera 2007, xv–xvi). Thus, Africanus would have been able to compare manuscripts of the LXX to those available to him in Hebrew. It is interesting that Africanus never mentions the numerical divergences between the (proto) MT and LXX in Genesis 5 and 11. Perhaps this is evidence that his particular Hebrew texts contained the higher begetting ages. (Henry Smith, Methuselah, 2017)
3. It is utterly astounding and fascinating that the interpretive chronological errors cancel each other out to present day knowledge so that the creation date (5500 BC) of Julius Africanus Sextus was almost exactly correct to modern scholarship standards.
4. About Julius Africanus Sextus:
a. “Julius was born in Jerusalem and was well educated. In his younger years he traveled extensively, visiting various biblical sites. For a time he lived in Emmaus and eventually went as an ambassador from that city to Rome. He so impressed Emperor Alexander Severus with his learning that the emperor appointed him to build the library at the Pantheon.” (Who’s Who in Christian History, W. R. Godfrey, Julius Africanus Sextus, p918, 1992 AD)
b.“Sextus Julius Africanus, a native of Aelia Capitolina (Jerusalem), was an official under Septimius Severus. We know that Alexander Severus charged him with organizing a library at Rome in the Pantheon. He was at Alexandria at the school of Heracles and made the acquaintance of Origen. We find him later in Palestine, at Nicopolis, where he died around 240 AD. There are only fragments surviving of the two principal works composed by him: the Chronicles, starting from the creation of the world up to 221 AD, put side by side in a synchronic form biblical dates and events with the events of Greek and Roman history. Julius Africanus, who compiled the work with probably millenarist intentions, fixed the duration of the world at 6,000 years and the birth of Christ at the year 5,500.” (Encyclopedia of Ancient Christianity, Julius Africanus, Volume 2, Page 488, 2014 AD)
c. “His chief work was a ‘History of the World’ (Χρονογραφίαι) to AD 217 in five Books, of which fragments are preserved in Eusebius’ ‘Chronicle’, George Syncellus, and other writers. He held that the world would last for 6,000 years from the Creation and that the Birth of Christ, which he antedated in relation to his own times by three years, took place in the year 5500. His ‘Embroidered Girdles’ (Κεστοί) is an encyclopaedic work in 24 Books, dedicated to Alexander Severus, on natural history, medicine, military science, magic, and miscellaneous subjects. This, too, survives only in fragments. He was also the author of two letters, one to Origen contesting the genuineness of the story of Susanna and the other to a certain Aristides on the genealogies of Christ in Matthew and Luke, both epistles showing good critical powers.” (The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, Julius Africanus Sextus, 2005 AD)

Lloyd
Posts: 5310
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Oct 13, 2022 3:42 am

211962

MARS AGE LIMITS

I'm continuing the same theme as in my last post. This is more from Ginenthal. He did some good research IMO.

Mars in Upheaval [Aeon]
_From: Aeon I:4 (Jul 1988) Charles Ginenthal.
{VELIKOVSKY ON MARS & VENUS ENCOUNTERS}
_In Worlds in Collision, Velikovsky writes - When Mars clashed with Venus, asteroids, meteorites and gases were torn from this trailing part [of Venus' tail] and began a semi-independent existence, some following the orbit of Mars, some other paths. These swarms of meteorites with their gaseous appendages were newborn comets; flying in bands and taking various shapes, they made an uncanny impression. Those which followed Mars closely looked like a troop following their leader. They also ran along different orbits, grew quickly from small to giant size, and terrorized the peoples of the earth.(1) If Velikovsky's analysis of ancient man's observations of Mars and its "Maruts" is correct, then there should be evidence of this on Mars' two small satellites, on Mars and also on the Earth. Since the debris was preceding and also following Mars, generally moving along in the same direction, it is highly probable that some debris would have encountered both Martian satellites and left many craters as well as a series of grooves that run parallel to each other.
_{See Mars' Moons: Phobos & Deimos
https://spacespecialists.com/wp-content ... 00x444.jpg
https://spacespecialists.com/fun-stories/moons-of-mars/ }
_{COMMENT: Velikovsky's model has a lot in common with the Saturn Model with respect to encounters between Venus, Mars, Earth and the Moon.}

{MARS' MOONS: PHOBOS & DEIMOS THRASHINGS}
_In Science News it is also suggested that the striations of Phobos were generated when this tiny moon passed through a cloud of debris.(3)
_William K. Hartman points out that, "the terrain on Deimos seems blanketed with boulders protruding here and there...."(4) Many of these boulders are "house-sized blocks."(5) Impact by house-sized blocks generally creates forces and velocities capable of imparting escape velocity to most of the ejected material.
_Thus, not only is it improbable that the ejecta came from the impacts, but it seems extremely likely that Deimos was struck by bodies moving with it and Mars, rather than arriving from remote space. The small difference between the velocity of Deimos and that of the arriving debris permitted the fall of debris without producing impact craters. Thus, the fact that Deimos is blanketed by a great deal more debris than Phobos(8) implies that their orbits were different with respect to Mars. Deimos' velocity permitted it to collect boulders and dust, while Phobos could only retain a much smaller amount of these kinds of debris.
_{COMMENT: The dust, debris, meteors and moons would have had surface charge. If the surface charges of dust was different from that of the moons, the dust would have been attracted to the moons.}
_Deimos and especially Phobos are considered to be captured bodies. (Statements that these satellites were captured by Mars will be found in all of the common literature.) Since Phobos circles Mars more rapidly than the planet rotates, it cannot have been born in such an orbit nor formed from ejection from the Martian surface. Therefore, the only method for the acquisition of Phobos by Mars is capture.
_In Scientific American is a discussion of the fact that about five percent of the Martian craters were found to be highly elliptical with butterfly-wing patterns of ejecta thrown perpendicular to the craters' long axes. This type of elliptical crater is produced by objects striking the planet at a grazing-incidence angle. The 76 such craters represent ten times the number expected from projectiles in heliocentric orbit. Like the grooves on Phobos, the scientists who conducted this study, P. E. Schultz and A. B. Lutz-Garihan, claim that the projectiles that made these elongated craters had to be in orbit around Mars.(10) This is exactly what the debris and Maruts {meteors etc} would have been doing as they moved along with and orbited around Mars.

{HOW MARS' METEORITES GOT ON EARTH}
_According to Velikovsky, Venus' near encounter with Mars ejected the smaller planet from its erstwhile orbit. As with the Earth, Venus discharged planetary thunderbolts to the Martian surface, while meteorites must have struck its surface also. Therefore, it is expected that some of this Martian debris was hurled into space and followed Mars during its journey to rendezvous later with the Earth. When Mars nearly collided with Earth, some of this Martian debris would have fallen onto the Earth - and evidence for this appears to exist. In Science, an article titled "Martian Meteorites" claims that meteorites from that planet are apparently being found on the Earth.

{VENUS' TIDAL PULL ON MARS}
_It was Velikovsky's view that Mars experienced a stupendous near collision with proto-planet Venus; therefore, Mars and Venus must have been affected by tremendous tidal forces. Additionally, because the interaction between the two planets was of a transitory nature, it is to be expected that one of the smaller planet's hemispheres would have been far more greatly subjected to these tidal influences than the other.
_{COMMENT: This is referring to Mars' northern hemisphere, which is over 3 km below the altitude of its southern hemisphere.}
_It is well known that "extensive photographic survey [of Mars] showed that the two Martian hemispheres have different topographic characteristics: the southern hemisphere is relatively flat, older and heavily cratered: the northern hemisphere is younger, with extensive lava flows, collapsed depressions and huge volcanos.(16)
_This unique planetary asymmetry is precisely what one would expect to find according to Dr. Velikovsky's thesis. In the short period of planetary encounter between Venus and Mars, tidal forces would have affected one Martian hemisphere much more than the other and should have left a distinctive dichotomy. The nature of this distinctive hemispheric dichotomy shows up in the southern hemisphere. Here tidal forces generated enormous volcanic activity which explosively erupted and poured huge volumes of lava over the surface that bubbled and burst again and again and sank to form craters in certain places, while the entire hemisphere was pulled and uplifted by gravitational force. Furthermore, the two hemispheres possess unique terrains at their interfaces, indicating that the cause that produced their differing terrains acted recently and has not been erased by time. "Along this interface the terrain is both varied and at places unique. Here are found fretted terrain, chaotic terrain, large channels, knobby terrain."(19)
_If, as Velikovsky proposed, Mars was removed from its former stable orbit into a new one by contacts with Venus and the Earth, one would expect that its rotation was altered. In this case a sudden violent rotational change would leave linear markings running longitudinally on Mars. Velikovsky stated that Mars "is rather a dead planet.... The canals appear to be the result of the play of geological forces that answered with rifts and cracks."(21) Alan B. Binder and Donald W. McCarthy discuss "Mars: The Lineament System" in Science: The photographs from the Mariner 4, 6 and 7 probes were analyzed for linear features, such as polygonal crater walls, linear rills (elongated depressions), linear ridges, linear albedo boundaries and linear scarps. When these features are plotted, they demonstrate the existence of a well developed planet-wide system of lineaments. This system of fractures might be the consequences of changes in the planet's rotation, polar wandering or similar stresses.(22) There is further evidence that Mars suffered an enormous celestial catastrophe.
_{COMMENT: The Saturn Theory accepts that there were encounters between Mars and Venus, as well as possibly Earth and the Moon, but they were all in the same orbit as Saturn, not in different orbits.}
_In Science News it is reported that - Three spots on the surface of Mars, all of them within 15 {degrees} of the equator, show signs of having been at the poles, according to Peter H. Schultz and A. B. Lutz-Garihan of the Lunar and Planetary Institute in H{o}uston.... Viking spacecraft photos from orbit, he (Schultz) says, show the region to have carved valleys like those in the present polar caps, pedestal craters whose shapes suggest that they formed in now vanished ice and signs of laminated terrain reminiscent of the present caps familiar layering which could indicate cyclic climate changes.(24) What Schultz's and Lutz-Garihan's evidence also implies is that Mars may have rolled about on its axis or that its crust slid violently to establish a new equator. Hence we have either a super-rapid plate-crustal movement with a tipping of the planet or more probably some combination of both.

{THARSIS RECENT BULGE}
_Geologist Bill Beatty is reported to believe that Mars had an early dense atmosphere, storms, weather and warm conditions. According to Randolph Pozos, Beat{t}y thinks "a Velikovskian type scenario such as a passing close encounter event [could have occurred] in the early days."(25)
_Some idea of the recentness of the catastrophe is represented by the Tharsis bulge ... 5000 km in diameter and 10 km high....
_According to Carr, "No matter what its origin, the Tharsis region is clearly anomalous and various suggestions have been made for the primary cause."(27) The fact of the matter is that Tharsis is too massive to remain at its present ten kilometer height above the surrounding region. The problem "puzzling to scientists is that Tharsis is, in effect, top-heavy - its bulk should not be sitting so high on the crust, but rather sink in (much as an iceberg submerges most of its volume beneath the ocean's surface)."(28) This means that if Tharsis formed eons ago it should have sunk into the surface long ago. A very reasonable explanation for the fact that it is still standing so high above the surface is that Tharsis formed quite recently and is presently sinking. As on the Moon, "gravitational anomalies [on Mars] are strongly correlated with topographic features."(29)
_The basic problem with the Tharsis bulge and the Martian gravitational anomalies is that they cannot remain in place for a long time unless some force is holding them up. Large bodies tend to become hotter deeper beneath the surface, and rheology - the science of the deformation of solids by gravity - says that gravity will cause bulges and mass concentrations to sink.
_The same solid state creep force also operates inside Mars and would act on the Tharsis bulge and the gravitational anomalies to have them sink into the planet long ago. Unless some unknown force is mysteriously sustaining this Martian feature, it is quite recent, and not anything like three to four billion years old. In fact, Carl Sagan admits the appearance of the Tharsis bulge looks very much like evidence of a recent catastrophe. In his book The Cosmic Connection he states
_Geological maps reveal an enormous array of linear ridges and grooves that surround the Tharsis Plateau - as if a third or quarter of the whole surface were cracked in some colossal recent event that lifted Tharsis.
{TO BE CONTINUED}

Lloyd
Posts: 5310
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Oct 14, 2022 1:27 am

212236

MARS AGE LIMITS (Part 2)

Mars in Upheaval [Aeon]
_From: Aeon I:4 (Jul 1988) Charles Ginenthal.
_HOW OLD ARE THE CRATERS AND SURFACE FEATURES ON MARS?
{MARS DUST IS RECENT}
_Mars possesses a very thin atmosphere. During the northern hemispheric winter, or southern hemispheric summer, powerful dust storms are produced over all or most of the planet. Bruce Murray, director of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, et al., describe the Martian dust storms thus: Laboratory experiments done under simulated Martian atmospheric pressures (0.1 to 1.0 percent that on Earth) show that wind velocities required to move particles on Mars range from about 90 to 240 kilometers per hour {56-149 mph}, depending upon the atmospheric pressure at the surface in question and on surface roughness. The particle size most easily moved by the wind on Mars is about 160 microns {0.16 mm} in diameter.... Once particles begin to move on the Martian surface, the higher wind velocities impart more energy to the particles, giving them a higher capacity for abrasion than on Earth.... Dust storms typically begin ... less than 400 kilometers in diameter {and} last about five days. In the next 35 to 70 days, the storm expands ... until the the planet is entirely obscured. Finally, the storm slowly subsides ... {for} 50 to 100 days.... Mariner 9 observations showed that the dust in the cloud was well mixed up to an altitude of 30 to 40 kilometers. Particles averaged about 2 microns in diameter, about the same size as particles in major dust storms on Earth.... Even after the major storm subsided, several small wind storms took place, causing changes that could be seen on the surface."(33) What is quite apparent from this description is that dust storms on Mars are more destructive to its surface than dust storms on the Earth.
_Space scientists and geophysicists were thus able to use well-known, experimentally-proven erosion equations to deduce the erosion rate on Mars. In a 1973 issue of Aviation Week and Space Technology, for example, we find that, "Using Mariner 9 wind data, Dr. Carl Sagan of Cornell University calculated erosion rates assuming a dust storm peak wind (velocity) of 110 mph blowing 10 percent of the time. This would mean erosion of 10 km (6.2 miles) of surface in 100 million years."(34)
_{NOTE: That's 1 meter every 10,000 years, or 1,000 mm / 10,000 yr, or 100 mm = 10 cm / 1,000 yr. Since most of Mars has very little dust and sand, it must have had none just a few thousand years ago. If the dust storms originated much earlier, the craters would be mostly filled up.}
_What does the experimental evidence have to say about the Martian erosion rate? In Sky and Telescope, a wind tunnel experiment ... calculated that Mars should be eroded at rates of up to 2 centimeters per century. But if this were the case, they note the craters visible at the Viking sites (which are hundreds of millions of years old) should have been worn away long ago."(54) This extrapolates to 100 feet of surface erosion in 150,000 years - the height of a 10-story building - twice the rate calculated by Carl Sagan.

{MARS VOLCANOES ARE RECENT}
_The Mariner probes have shown remnants of volcanos almost entirely eroded away, and also many highly degraded craters and other surface features.
_In Science, Allen Hammond writes, "According to Hal Masursky of the U. S. Geological Survey in Flagstaff, Arizona, eolian (wind) erosion is a dominant feature of Mars and apparently is so intense in some areas as to have completely eroded away pre-existing volcanos on Mars. The edge of the largest volcano on Mars, Nix Olympus, is apparently being rapidly eaten away, exposing a 1 to 2 kilometer cliff around its base."(37)
_It is abundantly clear that with such a powerful erosion rate the amount of dust produced would be enormous. Of course, this material would not have been blown off into space, but would settle on the planet's surface.
_All surface features should have been obliterated or covered - which is hardly the present condition of the planet as revealed by Mariner photographs. Are the rocky materials of Mars harder than any known Earth-type rocks?
_Henry J. Moore, et al, in the Journal of Geophysical Research, analyzed this question and concluded: "Bulk densities of surface materials of Mars cover the range found in natural terrestrial materials,(39) though "it is clear, however, that the surface materials are erodible and can be transported."(40)
_Many of the plains, such as Chryse Planitia ... do not look very different from the lunar maria, having crisp wrinkle ridges and well-defined craters.

{HUGE HELLAS CRATER BASIN IS RECENT}
_Large craters should be in evidence {in the huge Hellas Crater, but} they aren't.
_The scientists have {a theory of} little or no erosion in Mars' southern hemisphere to maintain the ancient crisp craters there. But inside Hellas, situated in that same southern hemisphere, either a high erosion process is at work or the material on Hellas' floor is super-erodible. ... There are many examples on Mars of volcanos that are degraded. One example of a volcanic region ... occurs near to the Hellas basin in the southern hemisphere...."(43) These volcanos have been highly eroded, and it is argued that the cones may have been constructed of ash and thus easily eroded. Yet surrounding this volcanic region are "Large extents of flood lava"(44) which deny the cone was only ash and indicate much lava flowed down the volcanic cones. Unlike ash, lava is not easily eroded.
{COMMENT: Here's a good image of Hellas Basin https://www.icr.org/article/ancient-rivers-on-mars . There are far fewer craters in the basin than outside of it and they are relatively small. This may mean that a huge object impacted Mars there after most of the other big meteors impacted, when mostly only small meteors were left to impact. Erosion on Mars appears to have begun only a few thousand years ago.}

{RECENT MARS RIVER BEDS}
_On Mars' surface are also observed what can only be described as the dried up beds of river systems. Interestingly, in some of these channels sandbars still exist. These "sandbars are found in the smaller (and narrower) flow channels, as is commonly found in (desert) arroyos on the Earth."(47)
_Carr and Gary D. Clow ... claim that these narrow riverbeds with sandbars, composed of Martian soil and sand, have been in place for 3.9 billion years. One would properly inquire: how do sandbars survive in river beds for almost 4 billion years of eolian erosion?
_The channels and craters do not look as though they have been filled up, so they can hardly be very ancient, tens of thousands of years perhaps, but not millions."(49) In "The Planets", Carr discusses other larger flood channels of Mars: In places the channels ... extend northward for over 1000 kilometers. In places the channels are 150 kilometers across and contain numerous teardrop-shaped islands.
_In fact, the channels more closely resemble a large terrestrial flood than typical river valleys. One of the largest floods known on earth is one crossing the eastern half of the state of Washington [believed to have been produced] 10,000 to 20,000 years ago. The flood is thought to have resulted from rapid emptying of a lake that covered much of western Montana. The lake was damned by ice and the flood followed when the ice collapsed. The released water swept over Washington eroding deep channels scouring wide swaths of ground and carving teardrop-shaped islands like those on Mars. Discharge of about one hundred times that of the Amazon river persisted for several days. The resemblance between the large Martian channels and the eastern Washington flood is so close that few geologists doubt that both were formed in a similar manner. One difference is that the Martian floods were larger.(50)

{PEDESTAL CRATERS ARE RECENT}
_Carr points out that the material around many craters could only be called "mud." "Particularly striking is the appearance of the material that was thrown out of some of the craters by impacts. It appears to have mudlike consistency and to have flowed across the surface after it fell back to the ground following ejection. The ejection materials appear to have contained significant amounts of water."(51) These craters are called "pedestal craters" and again pose contradictions to the gradualist theory.
_{NOTE: Wikipedia says this. In planetary geology, a pedestal crater is a crater with its ejecta sitting above the surrounding terrain and thereby forming a raised platform (like a pedestal). They form when an impact crater ejects material which forms an erosion-resistant layer, thus causing the immediate area to erode more slowly than the rest of the region. Some pedestals have been accurately measured to be hundreds of meters above the surrounding area. This means that hundreds of meters of material were eroded away. The result is that both the crater and its ejecta blanket stand above the surroundings. Pedestal craters were first observed during the Mariner missions.
_The image for this paper shows the locations of Mars pedestal craters: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/The ... _252987336 }


{MARS TORNADOES}
_In fact, it is quite probable that we have underestimated the evidence for erosion on Mars. In Discover for November, 1987, is an article discussing tornadoes on Mars. ... Tornadoes themselves have not been seen on Mars, but planetary scientists John Grant and Peter Schultz of Brown University think they have seen their tracks: dark lines, less than six tenths of a mile wide but as long as 46 miles that cut across hills, faults and craters. The lines are visible on images made by the Viking orbiters between 1976 and 1980. ... So far the tracks have been seen chiefly in a few southern areas, but the investigators think that's only because the light, sandy surface in these areas makes the dark lines easy to spot. Tornadoes are probably just as "common" in the north. Actually "common" is an understatement: Grant and Schultz counted between 55 and 60 tracks formed in a single season, in a typical 400-square mile area - an area smaller than Oklahoma City. {Any objects in the vicinity would} get very intensely sand-blasted.

{YOUNG MARS ROCKS}
_ROCKS. It is a well-known fact that dust and sand abrasion of desert rock produces a distinctive form of erosion. When dust and sand abrade rock its surfaces become smooth and some rocks become shiny from polishing by the softer dust particles. ... When we observe photos taken by the Viking landers on the Martian surface, we see rocks that do not show any of the distinctive signs one would come to expect from eolian abrasion. The rocks from the Earth's deserts and those from Mars are so strikingly different as to suggest that on Mars the rocks have been subject to hardly any abrasion - perhaps a few thousand years at most.

_{POLAR ICE CAPS: HUGE AMOUNT OF WATER ON MARS}
{NOTE: Mars' ice caps appear to be made largely out of water with a volume of water ice enough to cover, if melted, the entire planetary surface to a depth of 11 meters or 36 ft. https://nineplanets.org/mars/ That's 382,145 cubic miles of water. The Gulf of Mexico has 580,000 cubic miles of water. So Mars has about 66% as much water as the Gulf of Mexico.}

{YOUNG ATMOSPHERE}
_THE ATMOSPHERE. There are also certain characteristics of the atmosphere of Mars indicating it, too, has undergone change rather recently; that is, this evidence makes it highly improbable that the Martian atmosphere could have maintained its present status for billions of years, but has a composition which requires it to be no more than a few thousands years old. As we already know, the Martian atmosphere is quite thin and therefore subject to ultraviolet and cosmic radiation penetration all the way to its surface. The problem is basic: Mars' atmosphere is composed primarily of carbon dioxide. However, ultraviolet radiation photo-dissociates carbon dioxide into two constituents - carbon monoxide and atomic oxygen. These two molecules do not recombine easily. Therefore, if Mars' present atmosphere is actually billions of years old or even hundreds of thousands of years old, most of its carbon dioxide would be photo-dissociated into carbon monoxide and oxygen. In the Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Science is an article on just this problem. Photo-dissociation of carbon dioxide to produce carbon monoxide and atomic oxygen takes place from the top of the [Martian] atmosphere all the way down to the surface. In the upper atmosphere the known recombination reactions are not rapid enough to balance the photo-production of atomic oxygen to explain the low abundances of carbon monoxide.(56)
_According to an article in Nature by S. Yanagita and M. Imamura, Nitrogen-15 is an unstable isotope and does not have a long-lived radioactive parent. To be present in the Martian atmosphere it must have an abundant parent gas to be produced. Nitrogen-15 is generated when cosmic rays bombard Oxygen-16. Actually, oxygen is a minor component of the Martian atmosphere. Nevertheless, there is an excess of nitrogen-15 which cannot be explained if it is assumed that the present Martian atmosphere has been composed of the same gases for eons or even many thousands of years.(57)
_SULFUR. Using X-ray fluorescence spectrometers which examined the Martian soil, it was discovered that there were "surprisingly high concentrations of sulfur ... 100 times more than in the Earth's crust..."(58) This abundance is so large that it is extremely difficult to explain by uniformitarian theory. The only explanation we can offer is that Mars had a long period of tremendous volcanism comparable to that of Jupiter's satellite Io, which is spewing sulfur continuously from volcanic vents. The number of volcanos on Mars, however, would not seem to justify the conclusion. The other possibility is Velikovskian thunderbolts during interplanetary encounters, fusing sulfur from oxygen. This too, however, would seem inadequate; and it is hoped, therefore, that as our mythological-historical data-base expands, we may gain further insight into the mystery.
_CONCLUSION. We find that quite recently Mars was pluvial and probably had some surface water and an atmosphere quite different from its present composition. These preliminary findings should be set alongside the new research into the myths of Mars and the other planets, to see what additional illumination can be achieved.

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