SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light? If you have a personal favorite theory, that is in someway related to the Electric Universe, this is where it can be posted.
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Brigit
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Brigit » Thu Aug 04, 2022 11:28 pm

SAFIRE8 subtopic: Send Langmuir Probes to SAFIRE Project

https://ibb.co/8jgz8hH
Fig. 1. "A Langmuir probe is a device used to determine the electron temperature, electron density, and electric potential of a plasma. It works by inserting one or more electrodes into a plasma, with a constant or time-varying electric potential between the various electrodes or between them and the surrounding vessel. The measured currents and potentials in this system allow the determination of the physical properties of the plasma." ~wik
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

jackokie
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jackokie » Fri Aug 05, 2022 6:17 pm

@Brigit You are on fire this week! As I understand it the SAFIRE folks saw a commercial opportunity in fusion and wrapped up their planned experiments.

As far as an externally powered sun goes, IMO there is a glaring lack of actual data from which to draw conclusions so we're left to spitballing (hence the idea of the Thunderbolts Fleet of Miniature Spacecraft ;) ). I still believe that an externally powered sun (and stars) is the most likely option because it fits nicely into the galactic web concept and can explain the variability we see in Betelguese and other stars, as well as novas, using only the plasma physics demonstrated in the lab. Again I'll refer to William Harvey's insight on the circulation of blood (although the idea of capillaries eluded him). I'll be ready to rule out an externally powered sun when a sufficient volume of space has been explored, with proper instruments, and no results found in support.

There are entirely too many assertions in cosmology without supporting evidence from experiments. Want to convince me? Show me results from well-designed experiments rigorously done. Pie in the sky bye-and-bye doesn't cut it. Neither do sloppy investigations like LIGO.
Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once.

Lloyd
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:51 pm

I haven't observed any Thunderbolts detailed EU explanations of the Sun's many features, but Charles Chandler's EU site explains them all in detail at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=5237 . He and two other scholars concluded ten years ago that the Sun is a cathode, not an anode. It looks like JP agrees. Or is that a typo?

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JP Michael
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by JP Michael » Sun Aug 07, 2022 7:56 am

Lloyd wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 7:51 pm
It looks like JP agrees. Or is that a typo?
One of Mr. Mozina's posts from ages back quite persuaded me of the reasons why the sun is more likely to be a cathode, not an anode - particle movements being the main corroborating evidence iirc. I think we're all dreaming for the day that the SAFIRE experimental reactor is hooked up as a copper cathode sphere with iron anodes at the exterior and some experiments done to explore that side of the equation. Ah, dreams....

jacmac
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jacmac » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:20 pm

J P Michael:
Our sun is dirty, big and has an unknown core. SAFIRE is clean, small and has a known hollow or solid metallic core.
Yes, and the Safire core is directly attached by a wire cable to a voltage source.
OUR SUN IS NOT CONNECTED THAT WAY.
The Safire outer shell is directly attached by a wire cable, to the other voltage source point.
The Safire system is linear. The circuit has two nodes, points or places where
the circuit Load is connected to the EXTERNAL voltage source.
Depending on polarity, anode and cathode are appropriate terms.

The sun is the concentrated center of an electric cell like structure.
The unknown solar core is not separately connected to a different voltage source.
The entire solar system is connected to the interstellar medium at one place... the heliopause.

I'm saying the terms anode and cathode are not appropriate, misleading,
and begs the questions "what is the exact circuit diagram?" Scott page 114, The Electric Sky.
And he says "Do incoming cosmic rays help power the sun?"

Are we going to go through another long and tedious anode vs cathode debate ?
We should be asking "how does the solar system really work"?
How does the chromosphere exist ?
What does it do ?
If the photosphere and the corona are completely different plasmas,
what does it mean to say the sun DISCHARGES out to the heliopause ?
Is one plasma discharging?
Which one?
Are they all discharging as a group ?
Then where is the NODE ?

I keep bringing up these things because I have heard no answers to my questions;
nor have I heard any follow up questions or comments about this subject.
The EU narrative is new and exciting but I think it is still in the early stages of development.

Lloyd
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Aug 07, 2022 6:50 pm

@ JP. That's a pleasant surprise. Michael is one of the guys I was referring to in the discussion from ten years ago. All 3 agreed that the Sun is powered internally, like a battery. Brant thought it is a hollow solid iron sphere powered by an aether battery. I guess that's similar to Miles Mathis' idea, come to think of it. Michael's theory was that the Sun is powered internally by a neutron star, similar to Oliver Manuel's Iron Sun model. Charles' theory was that the Sun is powered by electric double layers. Wal Thornhill once had an article on his website about gravitationally induced ionization within large celestial bodies, in which electrons are expelled by gravitational compression from the core, leaving the core of positive charge and a layer above the core negative. That's electric double layers, which Charles expanded on. So I don't understand people's disdain for Charles' model. He even figured out how the Sun and planets formed in the first place by electrical implosion. And he showed his math in many cases. People look for answers, but they want certain people to show them the answers; otherwise they don't really want to know.

Cargo
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Cargo » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:19 am

the terms anode and cathode are not appropriate, misleading
Pretty much sums it up I think as well. Debates about nuances to fit the Ano/Cat model seem too antique.
interstellar filaments conducted electricity having currents as high as 10 thousand billion amperes

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JP Michael
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by JP Michael » Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:46 am

Jacmac, you've asked some mighty fine questions there!

That's the kind of stuff I like to see on this forum. Very thought provoking.

Is the sun an electrode at all? If so, what is it's circuit diagram?!

I think magnetic induction in the sun's plasmas also might play a major role in it's electric current generation. The sun is replete with plasmas and magnetic fields, as is the solar system, the local cluster, galaxy and beyond. How all these are interacting magnetohydrodynamically is one of the most complex questions plasma cosmology can answer.

jacmac
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jacmac » Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:54 pm

Cargo
Pretty much sums it up I think as well.
Thank you.
J P
I think magnetic induction in the sun's plasmas also might play a major role in it's electric current generation.
Yes, I think so as well.
The granules at the top of the photosphere seem to rise up, roll over and go back down.
You can represent this motion like this mmmm as a CROSS SECTION view.
The bottom of the corona also has a similar shape in the opposite direction. uuuuu
Now place those two shapes vertically with the curves facing each other.
Next draw two straight vertical lines between them to represent the chromosphere double layer Dr Scott says is there.
The result is the electrical symbol for a transformer.
As you know, that is induction.
https://www.google.com/search?q=transfo ... j0i20i263i
In this paper Antonella Greco describes the connection of the "flux tubes" in the solar wind with the granules of the photosphere.
https://lesia.obspm.fr/turbu/talks/Grec ... _turbu.pdf

My view of the sun is :
The key is the three part sun.
The chromosphere DL traps or turns back most of the photospheric plasma; the rising, rolling over, going down granules.
A portion of the outer corona plasma is turned back by the chromosphere DL; the U turn of the incoming corona plasma and the resulting collisions with the continuing incoming plasma gives us the rapid increase in temperatures in the "transition zone."
To the extent there is current through the chromosphere DL, this current provides the photosphere with a constant resupply of
energy to maintain the output of the photospheric heat and light.
The excess plasma not used to supply the photosphere becomes a return plasma going back out to the
heliopause as the "solar wind" and the heliospheric current sheet.

Instead of using linear electric circuit terms to describe the sun
I think we need more focus on the self organizing properties of the plasma
that results in an electrical cell like structure with the sun as a nucleus
and the heliopause as the outer boundary.

Jack

jackokie
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jackokie » Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:25 pm

@jacmac Yes, we definitely need to consider plasma's self-organizing properties. Different manifestations of those properties appear throughout the solar system, like the Birkeland currents perceptible by the hexagonal auroras at the poles of Jupiter and Saturn. Donald Scott has pointed out that current can flow in both directions in a Birkeland current. This suggests the possibility there is a solar system web on the model of the galactic web that can account for at least part of the solar circuit, connecting the planets to the sun and for some planets, Jupiter and Saturn for example, planets to their moons. Include the double layers you describe and perhaps we're getting close to a reasonable model of what we observe in the solar system.
Time is what prevents everything from happening all at once.

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Brigit
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SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Brigit » Fri Aug 12, 2022 10:48 pm

jackokie » Fri Aug 05, 2022 11:17 am says,
"As I understand it the SAFIRE folks saw a commercial opportunity in fusion and wrapped up their planned experiments."


I need to keep that in mind. SAFIRE is in the next phase. Nice.

But we are "in NIaMI". So here we can seriously speculate; we can talk over the materials used for the Langmuir probe, the anode, the pressure, the gas, the catalysts, and any other material variable in the SAFIRE experiment. And, how it all applies to the stars.

But you're right jackokie, it is after the fact. I actually trust that they had the best tech and support for the Langmuir probe. Langmuir probes are by definition able to cross regions of different electron density, temperature, and electric potentials.
So it could be that something very unexpected happened.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

Lloyd
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Aug 14, 2022 5:17 pm

It seems to me that the ability of plasma to self organize is fundamental to an understanding of how the universe works.
All matter responds to forces. What is the "self" you're referring to in self-organizing? Is that consciousness, or a life form?

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Brigit
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SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by Brigit » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:14 pm

Number 6. The sorting of elements in nebulae in space appear to correlate with the sorting of elements in the double layers around the anode in the SAFIRE experiment.

The goal here is to push the envelop and apply the results of the SAFIRE experiment to what is seen in space, and what will be seen in space.

The SAFIRE experiment and the proof-of-concept experiments created a spherically symmetric gas discharge in molecular hydrogen. The striations themselves have been known for a long time, and spherical striations have been studied, but SAFIRE et al experiments were unique in the use of Hydrogen gas at low pressure surrounding the anode. This reproduces conditions which correlate with astronomy.

Getting straight to the point. Within these striations are double layers, and the efield within each double layer has certain points where the electric field hits a minimum, actually goes to zero, and then increases. "So each of those striations corresponds to the formation of potential wells." Visually, the potential wells in the striations are where the light emissions are least, and it's kind of dark, and then the next concentric shell begins and there is a lot of ionization again and it is bright.

Those potential wells inside of the double layers are where there is no electric field. There's no field driving charged particles and no light emitted. This is where neutral Hydrogen can be caught. So what does that mean for the space around the sun, and in supernova nebulae? I think it means that we can start looking for neutral atoms and molecules trapped in these potential wells around stars, and around the sun.
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer

jacmac
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by jacmac » Wed Aug 17, 2022 3:46 pm

Brigit
I think it means that we can start looking for neutral atoms and molecules trapped in these potential wells around stars, and around the sun.
That might be difficult as the neutral things are harder to detect.

On another detail; have you seen any data on the anode voltage when there is one
sheath of plasma around the anode vs the voltage when there are many ?

Also, I look forward to the other two applications since you indicated there were to be 8. :)

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nick c
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Re: SAFIRE Experiment: 8 Potential Applications to Natural Phenomena

Unread post by nick c » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:36 pm

Moderator Note:
Several posts dealing with the self organization of plasma, have been moved to this thread:
Plasma: Self Organizing?

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