113674
I posted the previous post earlier today. I may get back to that theme later to get a solider foundation for dating the YD to the 3rd Millennium BC.
WATER GAPS FORMED DURING THE YOUNGER DRYAS FLOOD, NOT DURING THE GREAT FLOOD
Two more late Ice Age megafloods discovered
https://creation.com/two-more-megafloods
Ice Age megafloods [include]
[1] ... the Lake Missoula flood [down the Columbia River in Washington],
[2] the Bonneville flood down the Snake River [in] Idaho and ... Washington,
[3] [a] south central Siberia ... flood ... down the Chuja and Katun Rivers,
[4] ... the eastern English Channel ... megaflood[],
[5] ... glacial Lake Agassiz ... flood[] ... south down the Mississippi River, ... east [down the] Saint Lawrence Seaway, ... [northeast] into Hudson Bay and ... northwest down the Mackenzie River....
[6] ... [and the] Lake Atna [flood down] the Cooper River in S. Alaska.
[WATER GAPS FROM THE YOUNGER DRYAS FLOODS]
[7] Glacial Lake Wisconsin was formed along the edge of the Green Bay Lobe of the Laurentide Ice Sheet. As the ice receded, the lake breached catastrophically and flowed down the Wisconsin River.9 This flood overtopped another ridge, creating what is now a water gap.
_Many water gaps were also formed during the Lake Missoula flood.
_Both of these floods provide analogs for the thousands of water gaps across the Earth caused by the channelized runoff of the Genesis Flood.10
__[COMMENT: Water gaps are gaps in mountain ranges. Mountains were formed during the breakup of the Pangaea supercontinent when a large asteroid hit the southeast part of it just east of Africa north of Madagascar. The Great Flood occurred several hundred years earlier and deposited nearly all of the sedimentary rock strata on Pangaea, which became the strata atop the individual continents after the breakup. So the Great Flood could not have formed water gaps, since there were no mountain ranges at that time.]
_All these megafloods reinforce the idea that the Ice Age ice sheets melted catastrophically.23 Furthermore, the creationist Ice Age model has the potential to cause the Younger Dryas cold snap because there was very little sea ice, even in the Arctic Ocean, late in the Ice Age. (It is difficult to freeze the top of seawater, but a less dense cap of freshwater makes it much easier.) So pulses of freshwater floating over the saltwater from many megafloods and the catastrophic melting of the ice in general could have triggered the Younger Dryas.24 The effect would have been most dramatic over the Arctic Ocean. Of course, the Younger Dryas in the creationists scheme did not last on the order of a thousand years, as assumed by uniformitarian scientists, but would have been on the order of tens of years.
__[COMMENT: Impacts, widespread volcanism and possibly Saturn flares likely caused heating, followed by great amounts of dust and smoke and thus cooling, but the Creationist idea has merit too, IMO.]
HODGE-PODGE
[ADVANCED ANCIENT TECHNOLOGY]
Mystery Of Ancient Metal Clamps [to Join Megaliths together]
https://www.messagetoeagle.com/mystery- ... t-explain/
_The use of metal clamps in T-Grooves has been discovered in Tiahuanaco, Ollantaytambo, Koricancha, and the site of Yuroc Rumi, Vilcabamba. These clamps were also used on the Parthenon, on buildings in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Cambodia.
_Several imprints show that metal clamps intended to join huge blocks of stone that our modern machines cannot lift.
_The clamps from Pre-Columbian South America that have been examined show them to be made of a very unusual alloy – 2.05% arsenic, 95.15% copper, 0.26% iron, 0.84% silicon and 1.70% nickel.
_recent scans have revealed that metal was poured into these indentations, which means the builders had portable smelters.
_The metals used could only be melted at very high temperatures; temperatures the ancients (to our knowledge) were not capable of. The rare alloy of nickel-bronze-arsenic requires extremely high temperatures.
[CAN SATURN THEORY EXPLAIN THESE SIMILARITIES?]
This article mentions ten similarities among ancient peoples. I'll give my guesses as to how the Saturn Theory (ST) may explain them.
10 Remarkable Similarities Between Ancient Civilizations
https://www.messagetoeagle.com/10-remar ... knowledge/
1. Metal Clamps in Megaliths -- ST may not explain directly, but a former global advanced civilization may explain them.
2. Pyramids -- ST may say they're the base of the polar column.
3. Dolmens -- ST may not explain.
4. Hand Motif In Prehistoric Rock Art -- ST may explain as a sign of Venus in its early comet phase.
5. Swastika -- ST explains it as a frontal view of comet Venus in a little later phase, I think.
6. Sphinxes -- ST may not explain, but I'll try to do a search sometime.
7. Figures Sticking Out Their Tongues -- ST explains it as the appearance of Mars as the polar column was forming after Venus' early phase, I guess.
8. Pine Cone -- ST may not have an explanation, but I'll try to search on that too.
9. Priests -- ST probably explains them as representatives of the gods/planets.
10. Spirals -- ST explains them as a late phase of the Venus comet circling around Saturn.
[EARTH'S AXIS TILTED?]
The Calendar [Journals] [Aeon]
_Well, to begin with, one's attention is drawn to a number of temples built around this time which have had their orientation corrected by a small margin of 5 degrees. [51] Orientations. On the west coast of Scotland is a megalithic observatory that has been stated by Euan MacKie to record the solstices by a unique sighting arrangement that allows the viewer the luxury of an exact 90 degrees between the lines of sight. [52] In a critique of his work, Dwardu Cardona points out that the observatory would work extremely well if it was re-oriented by about 5 degrees clockwise. [53] Now, as it happens, a hemisphere away, our friendly Maya also had a temple whose underlying foundations were aligned 4-deg to the superstructure straddling it. Thompson tells us the following: "Orientation of buildings presents difficulties; the Maya seldom aligned walls correctly and seem to have been incapable of making a true right angle. For instance, the walls of the Castillo, most prominent temple at Chichen Itza, read 18, 20, 22 and 24 degrees (Rivard, 1970). The nearby Warriors complex has 17° 35', 16° 20' and 15° 15' for the main structure, the Northwest and north colonnades respectively; the underlying Chac Mool temple is 13° 30' (Morris, Charlot & Morris 1931). One wonders whether the 4 degree difference between the under and upper and later temple was deliberate." [54]
[INANNA FIGURINES IN EUROPE?]
The Eye Goddess [Journals] [Aeon]
_The cult of the "Eye Goddess" was very widespread, occurring as far North as Great Britain and as far East as Mohenjodaro. [36] Of the latter examples, Dhavalikar has noted that the images "have a high antiquity in India going back to well into the latter half of the third millennium B.C." [37] Marija Gimbutas would trace the European examples back further still: "The west European Eye Goddess of France, Spain, Portugal, and Great Britain is manifested in the stelae, figurines, and amulets of megalithic cultures dating from the 5th to the 3rd millennia B.C." [38] That the Inanna-figurines from Tell Brak are analogous to those from prehistoric Europe is generally accepted. Here Gimbutas observed: "Indeed, the resemblance of figurines from the temple of Tel Brak...to stone idols of Spain and Portugal with the oculi-motif, is quite astonishing." [39] Why ancient peoples around the globe would choose to represent their beloved mother goddess by an eye or by a figurine distinguished by concentric circles or "eyes" remains unexplained to this day [except by the Saturn Theory].
Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
114252
[SPHINXES]
[I said I'd try to look into these symbols a bit.]
RECONSTRUCTING THE SATURN MYTH [Journals] [Aeon]
_The sphinxes and winged bulls constructed at the gates of cities, the gargantuan columns towering over the people, signify early man's fervent defense against the abyss, a reservoir of meaning and identity to be preserved at all cost. For without that meaning, neither the new-born individual nor collective civilization in its infancy could have survived the shock of standing alone under a threatening universe. But how was it that these strange forms gave meaning, or a sense of impregnable defense? Clearly, their intent is to establish a rapport between man and god, and this means not only a sympathetic relationship, but a presumed ability to share magically in the observed powers of the gods. For this reason, every monument can be viewed as a symbol pointing backwards to the age of beginnings and the original cosmic forms and events dominating ancient imagination.
[WHY THE ANCIENTS BUILT HUGE BUILDINGS & MONUMENTS]
_Temples and Cities. In the myths, the cultural hero organizes a vast domain through the power of his own magic. He produces heaven-encompassing forms out of formless, chaotic matter and builds a citadel against the ever-threatening fiends of disorder. On earth men believed they could do the same by practicing the principles first lived - which means founded - by the ancestral "teacher." The spectacular scale and grandeur of their great cities will show that these achievements were themselves monuments to the gods....
[PINECONES IN MYTHS = VENUS?]
[Pinecones are another of the common ancient symbols that I said I'd try to look into.]
Pinecone: Symbol of enlightenment, fertility, third eye, eternal life
https://www.ancient-symbols.com/pinecone
_Pine cones were considered symbols of fertility by Romans, Greeks, Assyrians, and Christians. Their design forms a perfect Fibonacci sequence. Pine cones have also been associated with the Third Eye, enlightenment, and the pineal gland.
_Ancient civilizations used the pine cone in architecture, sculpture, and paintings. The staff of Osiris has a pinecone on top of two intertwined serpents. Hindu gods have pine cones in their hands. Shiva’s hair is woven with snakes in the shape of a pine cone. Using the pine cones with serpents represents spiritual consciousness. Pine cones have also been used to symbolize eternal life. There are Assyrian carvings of god-like figures holding pine cones aloft. The Assyrians also show a pine cone being used to fertilize the Tree of Life. A statue of a Mexican deity holds a pinecone and evergreen tree branches. Dionysus also carried a staff topped with a pinecone. There is a three-foot-tall bronze pine cone that was used in ancient Rome as a fountain. It sat in the Pantheon.
_Pinecones have been associated with the pineal gland. The pineal gland has the shape of a pinecone and is located in the brain. The pineal gland regulates melatonin which helps with seasonal cycles. The pineal gland has been called the Third Eye as it is the intuitive center of the brain. Pinecones are often depicted at the top of a staff. The staff can represent the spine and the pinecone represents the pineal gland or the Third Eye.
_Pinecones also symbolize fertility and sexuality. Pinecones were used as a fertility charm by Celts. They would place them under their pillows at night. Romans associated pinecones with the goddess of love, Venus.
_Pinecones have also been associated with eternal life. In Mexico, there is a depiction of the god Chicomecoatl holding an evergreen leaf and a pinecone. In ancient Assyria, there are palace carvings that depict winged gods carrying pinecones. The pollen from the pinecones is being sprinkled on the Tree of Life.
[PINECONES & HANDBAGS/BUCKETS]
[I recently found in Hancock's article mentioned above that handbag symbols were used at Gobekli Tepe, ancient Mesopotamia and ancient America, which indicates that Gobekli Tepe is much more recent than conventionally dated. I quoted from a paper that found that Gobekli Tepe shows comets from the Younger Dryas event, which indicates that it too was more recent.]
Pine Cones in Ancient Mesopotamia
https://allmesopotamia.wordpress.com/20 ... sopotamia/
_Many reliefs excavated at Mesopotamian sites depict gods or super beings holding a bucket in one hand and a pine cone in the other. It is clear that the pine cone was dipped into the bucket and used to sprinkle a substance, sometimes blood, as in this depiction of Tammuz, a winged Babylonian deity associated with regeneration....
_The pine cone and bucket depiction was not reserved to deities. Super beings, genii, which are like gargoyles in that they ward off evil spirits with people as well as buildings are also depicted holding pine cones in Mesopotamian art. This Blessing Genius stood guard at the gate of the city of Khorsabad, providing protection and blessings to those who walked through the city’s gates....
FOSSILS IN METAMORPHIC ROCK
Many websites say no fossils are found in metamorphic or igneous rock, but some sites say some metamorphic rock can contain recognizable fossils. Here are two.
Metamorphic Rock
http://www.westerville.k12.oh.us/userfi ... nswers.pdf
1. Why does a fossil have to be present in the original sedimentary rock so that a fossil can be found in a metamorphic rock?
_A fossil must be present since the higher temperature and pressure needed to form metamorphic rocks will change the fossil minerals into something else. It is possible for the fossils to remain together but in many cases they are stretched, squeezed, and nearly melted. So even if they do survive, they look nothing like their original self.
SURVIVING METAMORPHISM: TAPHONOMY OF FOSSIL ASSEMBLAGES IN MARBLE AND CALC-SILICATE SCHIST
__ABSTRACT: Devonian massive graphitic marble and calc-silicate schist, belonging to the Lower Formation of the Nevado-filabride Complex of the Internal Zones of the Betic Cordillera, crop out extensively near Aguilas (Murcia, SE Spain). These rocks contain a rich fossil record even though they have undergone Alpine metamorphism and deformation (350-480°C; 2 Kb). In this paper, we focus on the taphonomic characteristics of the fossil assemblages to infer the depositional processes that can be reconstructed even after metamorphism. The most abundant fossils are crinoids, followed by phacelloid colonial rugose corals, brachiopods, cephalopods (ammonoids and orthoceratids), and possible gastropods and benthic foraminifers. Crinoids occur as isolated columnal ossicles, as well as articulated portions of columns (pluricolumnals). One complete calyx [flower part] was also found. Taphonomically delicate crinoids are preserved in the calc-silicate schist beds. In the massive marble beds, crinoids occur mostly as disarticulated ossicles, but they still bear delicate ornamental features. Some corals preserve external walls. The low degree of abrasion indicates disarticulation of the crinoids due to exposure in the taphonomic active zone ..., but under low-energy conditions. Articulated crinoids are preserved due to catastrophic burial events. The preservation of the fauna allows the differentiation of background versus event biostratinomic processes even after being highly altered by metamorphism.
[SPHINXES]
[I said I'd try to look into these symbols a bit.]
RECONSTRUCTING THE SATURN MYTH [Journals] [Aeon]
_The sphinxes and winged bulls constructed at the gates of cities, the gargantuan columns towering over the people, signify early man's fervent defense against the abyss, a reservoir of meaning and identity to be preserved at all cost. For without that meaning, neither the new-born individual nor collective civilization in its infancy could have survived the shock of standing alone under a threatening universe. But how was it that these strange forms gave meaning, or a sense of impregnable defense? Clearly, their intent is to establish a rapport between man and god, and this means not only a sympathetic relationship, but a presumed ability to share magically in the observed powers of the gods. For this reason, every monument can be viewed as a symbol pointing backwards to the age of beginnings and the original cosmic forms and events dominating ancient imagination.
[WHY THE ANCIENTS BUILT HUGE BUILDINGS & MONUMENTS]
_Temples and Cities. In the myths, the cultural hero organizes a vast domain through the power of his own magic. He produces heaven-encompassing forms out of formless, chaotic matter and builds a citadel against the ever-threatening fiends of disorder. On earth men believed they could do the same by practicing the principles first lived - which means founded - by the ancestral "teacher." The spectacular scale and grandeur of their great cities will show that these achievements were themselves monuments to the gods....
[PINECONES IN MYTHS = VENUS?]
[Pinecones are another of the common ancient symbols that I said I'd try to look into.]
Pinecone: Symbol of enlightenment, fertility, third eye, eternal life
https://www.ancient-symbols.com/pinecone
_Pine cones were considered symbols of fertility by Romans, Greeks, Assyrians, and Christians. Their design forms a perfect Fibonacci sequence. Pine cones have also been associated with the Third Eye, enlightenment, and the pineal gland.
_Ancient civilizations used the pine cone in architecture, sculpture, and paintings. The staff of Osiris has a pinecone on top of two intertwined serpents. Hindu gods have pine cones in their hands. Shiva’s hair is woven with snakes in the shape of a pine cone. Using the pine cones with serpents represents spiritual consciousness. Pine cones have also been used to symbolize eternal life. There are Assyrian carvings of god-like figures holding pine cones aloft. The Assyrians also show a pine cone being used to fertilize the Tree of Life. A statue of a Mexican deity holds a pinecone and evergreen tree branches. Dionysus also carried a staff topped with a pinecone. There is a three-foot-tall bronze pine cone that was used in ancient Rome as a fountain. It sat in the Pantheon.
_Pinecones have been associated with the pineal gland. The pineal gland has the shape of a pinecone and is located in the brain. The pineal gland regulates melatonin which helps with seasonal cycles. The pineal gland has been called the Third Eye as it is the intuitive center of the brain. Pinecones are often depicted at the top of a staff. The staff can represent the spine and the pinecone represents the pineal gland or the Third Eye.
_Pinecones also symbolize fertility and sexuality. Pinecones were used as a fertility charm by Celts. They would place them under their pillows at night. Romans associated pinecones with the goddess of love, Venus.
_Pinecones have also been associated with eternal life. In Mexico, there is a depiction of the god Chicomecoatl holding an evergreen leaf and a pinecone. In ancient Assyria, there are palace carvings that depict winged gods carrying pinecones. The pollen from the pinecones is being sprinkled on the Tree of Life.
[PINECONES & HANDBAGS/BUCKETS]
[I recently found in Hancock's article mentioned above that handbag symbols were used at Gobekli Tepe, ancient Mesopotamia and ancient America, which indicates that Gobekli Tepe is much more recent than conventionally dated. I quoted from a paper that found that Gobekli Tepe shows comets from the Younger Dryas event, which indicates that it too was more recent.]
Pine Cones in Ancient Mesopotamia
https://allmesopotamia.wordpress.com/20 ... sopotamia/
_Many reliefs excavated at Mesopotamian sites depict gods or super beings holding a bucket in one hand and a pine cone in the other. It is clear that the pine cone was dipped into the bucket and used to sprinkle a substance, sometimes blood, as in this depiction of Tammuz, a winged Babylonian deity associated with regeneration....
_The pine cone and bucket depiction was not reserved to deities. Super beings, genii, which are like gargoyles in that they ward off evil spirits with people as well as buildings are also depicted holding pine cones in Mesopotamian art. This Blessing Genius stood guard at the gate of the city of Khorsabad, providing protection and blessings to those who walked through the city’s gates....
FOSSILS IN METAMORPHIC ROCK
Many websites say no fossils are found in metamorphic or igneous rock, but some sites say some metamorphic rock can contain recognizable fossils. Here are two.
Metamorphic Rock
http://www.westerville.k12.oh.us/userfi ... nswers.pdf
1. Why does a fossil have to be present in the original sedimentary rock so that a fossil can be found in a metamorphic rock?
_A fossil must be present since the higher temperature and pressure needed to form metamorphic rocks will change the fossil minerals into something else. It is possible for the fossils to remain together but in many cases they are stretched, squeezed, and nearly melted. So even if they do survive, they look nothing like their original self.
SURVIVING METAMORPHISM: TAPHONOMY OF FOSSIL ASSEMBLAGES IN MARBLE AND CALC-SILICATE SCHIST
__ABSTRACT: Devonian massive graphitic marble and calc-silicate schist, belonging to the Lower Formation of the Nevado-filabride Complex of the Internal Zones of the Betic Cordillera, crop out extensively near Aguilas (Murcia, SE Spain). These rocks contain a rich fossil record even though they have undergone Alpine metamorphism and deformation (350-480°C; 2 Kb). In this paper, we focus on the taphonomic characteristics of the fossil assemblages to infer the depositional processes that can be reconstructed even after metamorphism. The most abundant fossils are crinoids, followed by phacelloid colonial rugose corals, brachiopods, cephalopods (ammonoids and orthoceratids), and possible gastropods and benthic foraminifers. Crinoids occur as isolated columnal ossicles, as well as articulated portions of columns (pluricolumnals). One complete calyx [flower part] was also found. Taphonomically delicate crinoids are preserved in the calc-silicate schist beds. In the massive marble beds, crinoids occur mostly as disarticulated ossicles, but they still bear delicate ornamental features. Some corals preserve external walls. The low degree of abrasion indicates disarticulation of the crinoids due to exposure in the taphonomic active zone ..., but under low-energy conditions. Articulated crinoids are preserved due to catastrophic burial events. The preservation of the fauna allows the differentiation of background versus event biostratinomic processes even after being highly altered by metamorphism.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
115148
VENUS COMETARY DEBRIS TO SATURN'S RINGS?
Today I'm trying to get a clearer idea about the spiraling material from Venus or Saturn that apparently became Saturn's present rings. I'll start with two posts I made before.
MY POST OF Aug 26, 2020
http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/ ... =270#p2884
SATURN'S RINGS & ITS HOUSE
_Cardona found that the 7 Heavens mentioned in the Bible and 7 other things in other myths referred to the formation of Saturn's rings. I think Cardona thought they were previous rings, because he thought Saturn had flare-ups after the Younger Dryas, which he figured destroyed previous rings, and which I think he misdated. So if I'm right that means the ancients saw Saturn's present rings being formed.
_Cardona and others said Venus as a comet formed a circular trail of dust or something around the Saturn system, which is called the Ouroboros, the snake biting its own tail, which the Egyptians called a cartouche or scarab etc, a circle enclosing the name of a king or god etc. They called the circle the House of the god too. He thought there were two different events depicting the Ouroboros as two entirely different things, because of his misdating of the Younger Dryas, I think, so I think there was just one Ouroboros and it occurred not long before the system breakup. I suppose the Ouroboros was different from the Rings, but I plan to look into that more to see if they could be connected after all.
MY POST OF Oct 07, 2021
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =570#p5743
__PRIMORDIAL STAR
[NOVA FLARES TO RINGS]
_p73 Novae can be recurrent ones and one of these, which seems to flare up every twenty years or so, is T. Pyxidis in the dim southern constellation Pyxis.
_Somewhat like SN1987 A, this particular recurring nova has also developed a bevy of rings, in this case all concentric ones.4
_It thus seems that rings, which we now know to be common among the gas giant planets of the Solar System, also go hand in glove with stellar flare-ups.
__NEWBORN STAR
[SPIRALING SATURN EMISSION]
_p134 Back to the aftermath of the proto-Saturnian flare-up, however, the most bizarre sight that was witnessed by our ancient forefathers, once the blinding light had ebbed enough for the developing heavenly manifestations to be clearly seen, was a fiery stream of matter that was spewing from proto-Saturn's south polar region in an ever widening spiraling path.
_... Recent studies of such a recurring stellar outburst, the one known as RS Ophiuchi, indicates this rather well since its discharge of material came from both its axial poles.4
_The Hubble Space Telescope captured such material spewing forth in a spiral from the star LL Pegasi,5 while the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array - ALMA for short - spotted another spiral structure issuing from the star R. Sculptoris.6
_... One thing we shall definitely stress is that the spiraling matter that was seen being ejected from proto-Saturn was forever after held responsible for the inception of Creation.
_p135 As Jill Purce correctly noted, the mesmerizing influence this symbol had on ancient man was due to the belief that "chaos" had turned into "cosmos" through a "spiral movement."
[DATING THE SATURN EMISSION]
_p238 According to Anthony Peratt, petroglyphs and pictographs actually portray the plasmatic manifestations in the sky that so engrossed our ancient forebears and are to be dated somewhere between 7,000 and 3,000 years BC - that is, between 9,000 and 5,000 years ago.1
_p239 The spiral would therefore have originally formed beneath proto-Saturn, but, due to perspective, ancient man would have had no way to determine that it was so.
_However, as we have already indicated, judging by what we see transpiring in supernovae such as that of RS Ophiuchi, as also through one of Kristian Birkeland's terella experiments, proto-Saturn's resulting separate rings were eventually captured around it in equatorial orbit.
[FROM SPIRAL TO RINGS]
_p240 One other item concerning which I was entirely wrong back in 1984 was my understanding that proto-Satum's resultant primordial rings "were not the rings which presently encircle the planet," which words I actually emphasized.'
_As of this writing I can safely state that, while proto-Satum's ring system continued to evolve down through the ages, the planet's present rings are definitely the evolutionary result of its primordial encirclement.
Now I'm adding some more excerpts from Cardona's last book.
__[NEWBORN STAR]
__OUROBOROS
_p181 What all this tail-biting [in myths] amounts to is the mythic interpretation of the manner in which the spiraling emission of proto-Saturn's flaming detritus came to differentiate itself into a distinct encirclement that went down in mytho-history as a ring, or series of rings, around Earth's primordial stellar deity [Saturn].
__THE CREATRIX
_p437 We next turn our attention to the Pelasgian Eurynome who ordered the serpent Ophion to coil seven times around the cosmogonic egg.11 Eurynome herself was claimed to have risen naked from chaos.12 As others would have it, however, she was the daughter of Ocean,13 which amounts to the same thing, since what is meant is the river Okeanos "whose stream bends back in a circle," 14 very much like the serpent Ouroboros.
__THE SERPENTINE GODDESS
_p439 Take Enheduanna's hymn, The Exaltation of Inanna [planet Venus], as an example, where the goddess is explicitly referred to as having been in the form of a great serpent or dragon.4
_Apep, also known as Apophis, ... whose tail was in his mouth, [was] the enemy of Ra[.] As we have already noted, he was spat out, which is what his name actually means. What we should also note, however, is that, according to inscriptions on the walls of the Esna temple, he was spat "into the primeval waters" by the goddess Neith [planet Venus], from which he came into being in the winding form of an intestine.9
_p440 As a word of caution it should be added that, astronomically speaking, very much as in her father's case, there was more than one serpent, snake, and/or dragon, associated with the goddess. The most prominent of these, however, seems to have been the tail-biting Ouroboros emitted by proto-Saturn that ended up merging with the shrunken circumstellar disk to form the primeval sun's encircling rings. In view of the first appearance of the planet Venus plumb in the middle of the proto-Saturnian orb, the spiraling serpentine ring would have been seen by some as having been emitted by the goddess as much as it seemed to have been emitted by the god.
Now where did I get the idea that Venus was a comet spiraling outward from Saturn and leaving behind a trail of dust that became Saturn's rings? The above indicates that Saturn spewed out the spiraling rings as it was rotating and Venus stayed at the center of Saturn.
VENUS COMETARY DEBRIS TO SATURN'S RINGS?
Today I'm trying to get a clearer idea about the spiraling material from Venus or Saturn that apparently became Saturn's present rings. I'll start with two posts I made before.
MY POST OF Aug 26, 2020
http://thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/phpBB3/ ... =270#p2884
SATURN'S RINGS & ITS HOUSE
_Cardona found that the 7 Heavens mentioned in the Bible and 7 other things in other myths referred to the formation of Saturn's rings. I think Cardona thought they were previous rings, because he thought Saturn had flare-ups after the Younger Dryas, which he figured destroyed previous rings, and which I think he misdated. So if I'm right that means the ancients saw Saturn's present rings being formed.
_Cardona and others said Venus as a comet formed a circular trail of dust or something around the Saturn system, which is called the Ouroboros, the snake biting its own tail, which the Egyptians called a cartouche or scarab etc, a circle enclosing the name of a king or god etc. They called the circle the House of the god too. He thought there were two different events depicting the Ouroboros as two entirely different things, because of his misdating of the Younger Dryas, I think, so I think there was just one Ouroboros and it occurred not long before the system breakup. I suppose the Ouroboros was different from the Rings, but I plan to look into that more to see if they could be connected after all.
MY POST OF Oct 07, 2021
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =570#p5743
__PRIMORDIAL STAR
[NOVA FLARES TO RINGS]
_p73 Novae can be recurrent ones and one of these, which seems to flare up every twenty years or so, is T. Pyxidis in the dim southern constellation Pyxis.
_Somewhat like SN1987 A, this particular recurring nova has also developed a bevy of rings, in this case all concentric ones.4
_It thus seems that rings, which we now know to be common among the gas giant planets of the Solar System, also go hand in glove with stellar flare-ups.
__NEWBORN STAR
[SPIRALING SATURN EMISSION]
_p134 Back to the aftermath of the proto-Saturnian flare-up, however, the most bizarre sight that was witnessed by our ancient forefathers, once the blinding light had ebbed enough for the developing heavenly manifestations to be clearly seen, was a fiery stream of matter that was spewing from proto-Saturn's south polar region in an ever widening spiraling path.
_... Recent studies of such a recurring stellar outburst, the one known as RS Ophiuchi, indicates this rather well since its discharge of material came from both its axial poles.4
_The Hubble Space Telescope captured such material spewing forth in a spiral from the star LL Pegasi,5 while the Atacama Large Millimeter/submillimeter Array - ALMA for short - spotted another spiral structure issuing from the star R. Sculptoris.6
_... One thing we shall definitely stress is that the spiraling matter that was seen being ejected from proto-Saturn was forever after held responsible for the inception of Creation.
_p135 As Jill Purce correctly noted, the mesmerizing influence this symbol had on ancient man was due to the belief that "chaos" had turned into "cosmos" through a "spiral movement."
[DATING THE SATURN EMISSION]
_p238 According to Anthony Peratt, petroglyphs and pictographs actually portray the plasmatic manifestations in the sky that so engrossed our ancient forebears and are to be dated somewhere between 7,000 and 3,000 years BC - that is, between 9,000 and 5,000 years ago.1
_p239 The spiral would therefore have originally formed beneath proto-Saturn, but, due to perspective, ancient man would have had no way to determine that it was so.
_However, as we have already indicated, judging by what we see transpiring in supernovae such as that of RS Ophiuchi, as also through one of Kristian Birkeland's terella experiments, proto-Saturn's resulting separate rings were eventually captured around it in equatorial orbit.
[FROM SPIRAL TO RINGS]
_p240 One other item concerning which I was entirely wrong back in 1984 was my understanding that proto-Satum's resultant primordial rings "were not the rings which presently encircle the planet," which words I actually emphasized.'
_As of this writing I can safely state that, while proto-Satum's ring system continued to evolve down through the ages, the planet's present rings are definitely the evolutionary result of its primordial encirclement.
Now I'm adding some more excerpts from Cardona's last book.
__[NEWBORN STAR]
__OUROBOROS
_p181 What all this tail-biting [in myths] amounts to is the mythic interpretation of the manner in which the spiraling emission of proto-Saturn's flaming detritus came to differentiate itself into a distinct encirclement that went down in mytho-history as a ring, or series of rings, around Earth's primordial stellar deity [Saturn].
__THE CREATRIX
_p437 We next turn our attention to the Pelasgian Eurynome who ordered the serpent Ophion to coil seven times around the cosmogonic egg.11 Eurynome herself was claimed to have risen naked from chaos.12 As others would have it, however, she was the daughter of Ocean,13 which amounts to the same thing, since what is meant is the river Okeanos "whose stream bends back in a circle," 14 very much like the serpent Ouroboros.
__THE SERPENTINE GODDESS
_p439 Take Enheduanna's hymn, The Exaltation of Inanna [planet Venus], as an example, where the goddess is explicitly referred to as having been in the form of a great serpent or dragon.4
_Apep, also known as Apophis, ... whose tail was in his mouth, [was] the enemy of Ra[.] As we have already noted, he was spat out, which is what his name actually means. What we should also note, however, is that, according to inscriptions on the walls of the Esna temple, he was spat "into the primeval waters" by the goddess Neith [planet Venus], from which he came into being in the winding form of an intestine.9
_p440 As a word of caution it should be added that, astronomically speaking, very much as in her father's case, there was more than one serpent, snake, and/or dragon, associated with the goddess. The most prominent of these, however, seems to have been the tail-biting Ouroboros emitted by proto-Saturn that ended up merging with the shrunken circumstellar disk to form the primeval sun's encircling rings. In view of the first appearance of the planet Venus plumb in the middle of the proto-Saturnian orb, the spiraling serpentine ring would have been seen by some as having been emitted by the goddess as much as it seemed to have been emitted by the god.
Now where did I get the idea that Venus was a comet spiraling outward from Saturn and leaving behind a trail of dust that became Saturn's rings? The above indicates that Saturn spewed out the spiraling rings as it was rotating and Venus stayed at the center of Saturn.
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
115414
VENUS' TAIL BECAME SATURN'S RINGS, I GUESS
Last time I asked where did I get the idea that Venus' trail of dust became Saturn's rings. I haven't pinpointed it yet, but following are excerpts from two sources that say that pretty plainly (again from Catastrophism.com).
[VENUS' TAIL FORMED A BAND, WHICH BECAME 7 RINGS]
The Evolution of the Cosmogonic Egg [Journals] [Aeon]
_Talbott has also shown that the bottom half of the bisected band was visualized, inter alia, as the ship or boat of the Saturnian deity. (180) It is therefore of interest that Argha, the celestial ship of the Hindus, the name of which was derived from Arki and/or Arka-putra, both Sanskrit names of the planet Saturn, (181) was described as the lower half of the cosmogonic egg. (182) All of which is in harmony with the splitting of the cosmogonic egg as the bisecting of the celestial band visually seen to have surrounded the primeval Saturn. What seems to have transpired is evident. As Talbott has already shown, the luminous gases expelled by the dislodged Venus slowly congealed into a circular band which expanded and was visually seen from Earth to surround the Saturnian orb. This band, or egg, ... was originally of a golden color. ... having glowed as a complete circle for an ambiguous length of time, the band's illumination changed so that, while half of it remained a brilliant gold, the other half changed to a lesser silver light -- or half bright and half dark, as other sources inform us. What this means is that the position of the ring must have changed with respect to the present, but still somehow hidden, Sun.
_The Seven Worlds. The evolution of the cosmogonic egg did not stop there. As I have been maintaining for several years, the Saturnian band eventually evolved into a seven-fold ring, (185) a postulate that I had first proposed in 1978. (186) If the cosmic egg, then, was really an ancient analogy of the Saturnian band, the same egg should also be mythologically bound with this seven-fold ring. In this respect, again, the myths do not disappoint us. We have, above, already encountered the Pelasgian myth in which we met the serpent Ophion whom we identified as the cometary tail spiraling around Venus as this body was dislodged from the Saturnian axis. There we saw that this serpent was said not only to have coiled himself around the creatrix Eurynome but, in a different version, around the egg which Eurynome laid. What is of interest here is that Ophion was described as having coiled around the egg seven times. (187)
[VENUS' BAND AS FACES OF GOD/SATURN]
Janus: Corrigenda et Addenda [Journals] [Aeon]
_By inference, the two faces of Janus, said to have represented the bright and dark halves of the sky, would, in reality, have represented the bright and dark halves of the same sun-illuminated Saturnian band, especially during those daily periods when the two halves were positioned to the right and left of the Saturnian orb [sequentially, not simultaneously].
_As readers of this periodical should by now be familiar with, the Saturnian band, according to Talbott, was formed from the debris of cometary Venus as it circled around the Saturnian orb. It is therefore interesting that Tanit, the Near Eastern and Carthaginian goddess ... the planet Venus, (54) received the epithet Pane Baal, which translates as "Face of Baal," (55) the god Baal being one of the Near Eastern representations of Saturn. (56) Thus it can be said that Venus or, more correctly, its circular trailing part - that is the Saturnian band with which we are here concerned - was what formed the "face" of Saturn.
They have also stated that the band was actually below Saturn, presumably close to Venus, but from Earth's perspective the band or ring looked like it was around Saturn. In that case, it's hard to understand how the band evolved into Saturn's present rings. It would have had to move from Venus to Saturn. The rings consist of ice and dust. ["They are made of billions of small chunks of ice and rock coated with other materials such as dust."] Would the tail of Venus have contained such matter? Or would it have come from Saturn flares?
VENUS' TAIL BECAME SATURN'S RINGS, I GUESS
Last time I asked where did I get the idea that Venus' trail of dust became Saturn's rings. I haven't pinpointed it yet, but following are excerpts from two sources that say that pretty plainly (again from Catastrophism.com).
[VENUS' TAIL FORMED A BAND, WHICH BECAME 7 RINGS]
The Evolution of the Cosmogonic Egg [Journals] [Aeon]
_Talbott has also shown that the bottom half of the bisected band was visualized, inter alia, as the ship or boat of the Saturnian deity. (180) It is therefore of interest that Argha, the celestial ship of the Hindus, the name of which was derived from Arki and/or Arka-putra, both Sanskrit names of the planet Saturn, (181) was described as the lower half of the cosmogonic egg. (182) All of which is in harmony with the splitting of the cosmogonic egg as the bisecting of the celestial band visually seen to have surrounded the primeval Saturn. What seems to have transpired is evident. As Talbott has already shown, the luminous gases expelled by the dislodged Venus slowly congealed into a circular band which expanded and was visually seen from Earth to surround the Saturnian orb. This band, or egg, ... was originally of a golden color. ... having glowed as a complete circle for an ambiguous length of time, the band's illumination changed so that, while half of it remained a brilliant gold, the other half changed to a lesser silver light -- or half bright and half dark, as other sources inform us. What this means is that the position of the ring must have changed with respect to the present, but still somehow hidden, Sun.
_The Seven Worlds. The evolution of the cosmogonic egg did not stop there. As I have been maintaining for several years, the Saturnian band eventually evolved into a seven-fold ring, (185) a postulate that I had first proposed in 1978. (186) If the cosmic egg, then, was really an ancient analogy of the Saturnian band, the same egg should also be mythologically bound with this seven-fold ring. In this respect, again, the myths do not disappoint us. We have, above, already encountered the Pelasgian myth in which we met the serpent Ophion whom we identified as the cometary tail spiraling around Venus as this body was dislodged from the Saturnian axis. There we saw that this serpent was said not only to have coiled himself around the creatrix Eurynome but, in a different version, around the egg which Eurynome laid. What is of interest here is that Ophion was described as having coiled around the egg seven times. (187)
[VENUS' BAND AS FACES OF GOD/SATURN]
Janus: Corrigenda et Addenda [Journals] [Aeon]
_By inference, the two faces of Janus, said to have represented the bright and dark halves of the sky, would, in reality, have represented the bright and dark halves of the same sun-illuminated Saturnian band, especially during those daily periods when the two halves were positioned to the right and left of the Saturnian orb [sequentially, not simultaneously].
_As readers of this periodical should by now be familiar with, the Saturnian band, according to Talbott, was formed from the debris of cometary Venus as it circled around the Saturnian orb. It is therefore interesting that Tanit, the Near Eastern and Carthaginian goddess ... the planet Venus, (54) received the epithet Pane Baal, which translates as "Face of Baal," (55) the god Baal being one of the Near Eastern representations of Saturn. (56) Thus it can be said that Venus or, more correctly, its circular trailing part - that is the Saturnian band with which we are here concerned - was what formed the "face" of Saturn.
They have also stated that the band was actually below Saturn, presumably close to Venus, but from Earth's perspective the band or ring looked like it was around Saturn. In that case, it's hard to understand how the band evolved into Saturn's present rings. It would have had to move from Venus to Saturn. The rings consist of ice and dust. ["They are made of billions of small chunks of ice and rock coated with other materials such as dust."] Would the tail of Venus have contained such matter? Or would it have come from Saturn flares?
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Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
116858
HOPING TO FIND CONNECTIONS BETWEEN MYTHS & CATACLYSMS ON EARTH
Here are excerpts from Dave Talbott's Aeon article, which describe the Saturn Configuration and some of its evolution. I'll try to compare it to the Opening of the Mouth Ritual, which I quoted from a few months ago, and maybe to Cardona's material etc. My words are in brackets or in green.
The Mythical History of the Comet Venus (Part I) [Journals] [Aeon]
... The Polar Configuration.
_[CENTRAL SATURN] At the heart of the observed planetary configuration is the stationary Saturn ... at the celestial pole.
_[OUTER BAND] Enclosing Saturn was a spectacular band ... presenting earth witnesses with a brightly illuminated half-circle or crescent ... produced by reflected light from the Sun....
_[CRESCENT] [The crescent was] revolving around the stationary Saturn with each turn of the Earth on its axis....
_The configuration reached its greatest brilliance when the crescent was directly below Saturn (at midnight).
_[POLAR COLUMN] From the viewer's northern horizon a great column of light rose toward Saturn along the polar axis, looking very much like a pillar holding aloft both [Saturn & its] enclosure.
_[TOPMOST MARS] The small orb at the apex of the column was the reddish planet Mars....
_[VENUS CURL] Spiralling out from the polar axis was a turquoise stream [a revolving curl] of gas or dust, terminating in the orb of Venus ... the mother goddess.
_[FIERY CROSS] Also visible were four streams of gas or dust appearing to radiate from the shared polar axis [on the face of Saturn].
_[JUPITER HIDDEN BEHIND SATURN] Jupiter was originally hidden behind Saturn....
_GASEOUS ENVELOPE] The entire planetary configuration mov[ed] through a gaseous envelope extending perhaps several million miles from Jupiter.
_Moving up the axis from Earth, the original planetary line-up was: first Mars, then Venus, then Saturn, then Jupiter.(3)
_[JUPITER'S BIRTH] [Jupiter was] "born" as the rejuvenated or resurrected sun god following a great catastrophe in which the shared axis was disturbed and Saturn displaced from its polar position.(2)
_[VENUS IN FRONT CENTER OF SATURN] In the original celestial scheme, Venus appeared squarely in the center of the motionless Saturn [looking like Saturn's eye].
_[COMET TAIL] The cometary stream [from Venus] reach[ed] up the axis toward Saturn [&] appeared to radiate in all directions from Venus, and spread across the face of Saturn.
_[CENTRAL MARS] The planet Mars was seen inside [in front] of Venus [looking like the pupil of the Venus eye].
__SCENARIO IN BRIEF.
_[Cardona said initially Saturn looked like a reddish dimly glowing light in a dark sky, so that should precede all of this, I think].
_[CREATION] A massive volume of material appeared to erupt from Saturn (or ... Venus), creating a cloud of comet-like debris filling the [Saturn] region [of the sky, looking like a] sea of chaos [or] a sea of visible [shouted] "words", [or] fiery [creatures].
_In ... this unstable period, Mars descended along the axis, appearing to have been [birthed from] the Venus goddess.... As Mars [thus] moved closer to the Earth [and became a "giant"], a stream of gas or dust now stretched between the two... [It looked like] Mars [was] occupying the apex of ... a fiery column, ... mountain or ... river.(7)
_During this period of instability, Venus was dislodged from its visually motionless position in the center of Saturn and began revolving around the polar axis. To the observer on Earth, it appeared as if the luminous orb was exhaled or spit out by Saturn [looking like the spirit of Saturn had left his body].
_A comet-like stream reaching upward from Venus toward Saturn ... took on the form of a ... [breath- or hair-like] curl ... the pre-astronomical hieroglyph[] for the comet [looking like a sidelock of Saturn or Mars].
_A cataclysmic moment occurred as Venus was further removed from the axis, its spiralling tail appearing to break away from the polar axis altogether [looking like the spirit of Saturn left his body and the body died].
_This ... was [the beginning] of the raging serpent dragon ... [as] the cometary tail took on an uncontrolled and fiery appearance, spreading debris across the face of Saturn and, at least for a time, obscuring the planet altogether.
_As Venus moved in widening circles, the comet-like tail began to spiral up and around the polar axis, taking on the appearance ... of a great whirlpool or whirlwind [looking like] the Venus goddess wrapped her own essence around the dying god, as hair, cloth, or magical bonds....
_Though the imagery is complex, many strands of evidence suggest that the winding comet-like tail produced a total of nine visible turns around the axis[, like] nine days....
_Additionally, four streams of gas, dust or celestial material, radiating from the polar axis - and superimposed against the ninefold spiral - produced the image of a vast web or net stretched across Saturn's domain....
_Saturn's cosmic dwelling is said to have been constituted from the winding tail of the encircling "comet"....
_At some point after formation of the enclosure, it was split into semicircles [crescents] of light and shadow by light cast upon it from the [hidden Sun]....
_Venus continued to circle outside the band, now appearing as an appendage or extension of the band....
In the Opening of the Mouth Ritual article, it was said that the creator, Saturn/Osiris, was restored for a time, so Venus and Mars apparently returned to their earlier positions in front center of Saturn. But, ultimately, the configuration again became unstable, Saturn went away and Jupiter appeared to take his place for a time, and finally the planets all dispersed. But I don't know if there are any myths which describe the final dispersal. It seems like that dispersal should be the best remembered myth, unless it occurred under very obscuring conditions.
HOPING TO FIND CONNECTIONS BETWEEN MYTHS & CATACLYSMS ON EARTH
Here are excerpts from Dave Talbott's Aeon article, which describe the Saturn Configuration and some of its evolution. I'll try to compare it to the Opening of the Mouth Ritual, which I quoted from a few months ago, and maybe to Cardona's material etc. My words are in brackets or in green.
The Mythical History of the Comet Venus (Part I) [Journals] [Aeon]
... The Polar Configuration.
_[CENTRAL SATURN] At the heart of the observed planetary configuration is the stationary Saturn ... at the celestial pole.
_[OUTER BAND] Enclosing Saturn was a spectacular band ... presenting earth witnesses with a brightly illuminated half-circle or crescent ... produced by reflected light from the Sun....
_[CRESCENT] [The crescent was] revolving around the stationary Saturn with each turn of the Earth on its axis....
_The configuration reached its greatest brilliance when the crescent was directly below Saturn (at midnight).
_[POLAR COLUMN] From the viewer's northern horizon a great column of light rose toward Saturn along the polar axis, looking very much like a pillar holding aloft both [Saturn & its] enclosure.
_[TOPMOST MARS] The small orb at the apex of the column was the reddish planet Mars....
_[VENUS CURL] Spiralling out from the polar axis was a turquoise stream [a revolving curl] of gas or dust, terminating in the orb of Venus ... the mother goddess.
_[FIERY CROSS] Also visible were four streams of gas or dust appearing to radiate from the shared polar axis [on the face of Saturn].
_[JUPITER HIDDEN BEHIND SATURN] Jupiter was originally hidden behind Saturn....
_GASEOUS ENVELOPE] The entire planetary configuration mov[ed] through a gaseous envelope extending perhaps several million miles from Jupiter.
_Moving up the axis from Earth, the original planetary line-up was: first Mars, then Venus, then Saturn, then Jupiter.(3)
_[JUPITER'S BIRTH] [Jupiter was] "born" as the rejuvenated or resurrected sun god following a great catastrophe in which the shared axis was disturbed and Saturn displaced from its polar position.(2)
_[VENUS IN FRONT CENTER OF SATURN] In the original celestial scheme, Venus appeared squarely in the center of the motionless Saturn [looking like Saturn's eye].
_[COMET TAIL] The cometary stream [from Venus] reach[ed] up the axis toward Saturn [&] appeared to radiate in all directions from Venus, and spread across the face of Saturn.
_[CENTRAL MARS] The planet Mars was seen inside [in front] of Venus [looking like the pupil of the Venus eye].
__SCENARIO IN BRIEF.
_[Cardona said initially Saturn looked like a reddish dimly glowing light in a dark sky, so that should precede all of this, I think].
_[CREATION] A massive volume of material appeared to erupt from Saturn (or ... Venus), creating a cloud of comet-like debris filling the [Saturn] region [of the sky, looking like a] sea of chaos [or] a sea of visible [shouted] "words", [or] fiery [creatures].
_In ... this unstable period, Mars descended along the axis, appearing to have been [birthed from] the Venus goddess.... As Mars [thus] moved closer to the Earth [and became a "giant"], a stream of gas or dust now stretched between the two... [It looked like] Mars [was] occupying the apex of ... a fiery column, ... mountain or ... river.(7)
_During this period of instability, Venus was dislodged from its visually motionless position in the center of Saturn and began revolving around the polar axis. To the observer on Earth, it appeared as if the luminous orb was exhaled or spit out by Saturn [looking like the spirit of Saturn had left his body].
_A comet-like stream reaching upward from Venus toward Saturn ... took on the form of a ... [breath- or hair-like] curl ... the pre-astronomical hieroglyph[] for the comet [looking like a sidelock of Saturn or Mars].
_A cataclysmic moment occurred as Venus was further removed from the axis, its spiralling tail appearing to break away from the polar axis altogether [looking like the spirit of Saturn left his body and the body died].
_This ... was [the beginning] of the raging serpent dragon ... [as] the cometary tail took on an uncontrolled and fiery appearance, spreading debris across the face of Saturn and, at least for a time, obscuring the planet altogether.
_As Venus moved in widening circles, the comet-like tail began to spiral up and around the polar axis, taking on the appearance ... of a great whirlpool or whirlwind [looking like] the Venus goddess wrapped her own essence around the dying god, as hair, cloth, or magical bonds....
_Though the imagery is complex, many strands of evidence suggest that the winding comet-like tail produced a total of nine visible turns around the axis[, like] nine days....
_Additionally, four streams of gas, dust or celestial material, radiating from the polar axis - and superimposed against the ninefold spiral - produced the image of a vast web or net stretched across Saturn's domain....
_Saturn's cosmic dwelling is said to have been constituted from the winding tail of the encircling "comet"....
_At some point after formation of the enclosure, it was split into semicircles [crescents] of light and shadow by light cast upon it from the [hidden Sun]....
_Venus continued to circle outside the band, now appearing as an appendage or extension of the band....
In the Opening of the Mouth Ritual article, it was said that the creator, Saturn/Osiris, was restored for a time, so Venus and Mars apparently returned to their earlier positions in front center of Saturn. But, ultimately, the configuration again became unstable, Saturn went away and Jupiter appeared to take his place for a time, and finally the planets all dispersed. But I don't know if there are any myths which describe the final dispersal. It seems like that dispersal should be the best remembered myth, unless it occurred under very obscuring conditions.
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Lloyd
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- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
117116
CARDONA'S 1988 ELABORATION OF HIS & TALBOTT'S THEN VIEWS ON THE EVOLUTION OF THE SATURN SYSTEM
This is about my 4th post this week. The following are excerpts from the first part of Cardona's 3 part essay, which seems to have appeared in the first 3 issues of Aeon magazine. My headings are in caps in brackets to make it easier to skim. I'll try to paraphrase all of this later. There may be more useful elaboration in the rest of the essay, but I don't know if I'll have time for that myself. I didn't remember that Talbott had suggested a date for the Saturn System between 6 & 8 millennia ago. I think it was between 4 & 6 millennia ago. Apparently, Velikovsky thought it was between 5 & 10 millennia ago and Cardona has mentioned those dates as well.
The Road to Saturn, Dwardu Cardona
https://www.aeonjournal.com/articles/ro ... aturn.html
The Road to Saturn (Excerpts from an Autobiographical Essay) [Journals] [Aeon]
_From: Aeon I:1 (Jan 1988)
_[DIM LONE SATURN IN AGE OF DARKNESS] In prehistoric times, Saturn was the most conspicuous object in the sky. [It] was observed ... as a rotating sphere, which means that markings of some sort were clearly visible on its surface. Since tradition insists there was no way of telling time in those "days," these markings must have been of a fluctuating nature with no specific form retaining a recognizable shape that could have been timed with each rotation. Fluctuating surface markings bespeak an active atmosphere, perhaps in turmoil, and the impression one receives, especially in view of what transpired later, is that Saturn was an unstable gaseous body.
_[NORTH POLAR SATURN] Unlike the Sun, [Saturn] did not rise or set. It simply hung suspended in the north celestial pole, which could only mean that it shared the same axis of rotation with Earth. More than that -- and this was a puzzle I had not yet solved -- the texts speak of this planetary deity as having ruled alone and in darkness. The Sun, it is stated, was completely absent from the sky. Man remembers this age as a time of perpetual night. But for Saturn to have been visible, it must have shed some light. Since the light did not dissolve the gloom the illumination must have been feeble.
_[IDEAL CLIMATE] For fauna and flora to have thrived, Saturn must also have shed warmth. Man himself went completely naked. He knew nothing of chilling winds, cold rain, of snow, or ice.
_[UNIMPRESSIVE SATURN] During this period, the Saturnian orb does not seem to have been paid much heed. It was simply there, invoking neither fear nor reverence.
_[SATURN FLARE] But then an event transpired of such stupendousness that it went down in the annals of mankind as Day One. Saturn suddenly flared up in nova-like brilliance, flooding the Earth and its inhabitants with a blinding light. The [supposed] act of creation had commenced.
_[BLACK MASS ATTACKED SATURN] When the light of the flare-up finally ebbed, man was presented with a ghastly sight. Spewing out from the central orb was a multi-spiralled black mass that revolved and wound itself around [Saturn]. Viewed as a monster which the transformed [planet Saturn] had to subdue, this was also the chaos out of which creation progressed.
_[SUNLIGHT FIRST APPEARED] It seems to have been precisely at this point that the Sun made its appearance [i.e. sunlight appeared, but the Sun itself was not yet visible]. Day now succeeded night. Time had come into the world.
_[SATURN LIGHT OBSCURED STARS] Saturn itself continued to shine as a sun in its own right. It was bright enough to keep the stars, except those of first magnitude, from being seen. It was not however as bright as the Sun and, during the day, it paled into a cloud-like ghost.
_[ICE DEBRIS FILAMENTS & RINGS FORMED] Two filaments detached themselves from Saturn's spiralling matter and were temporarily "lost" in the reaches of space. The rest of this watery debris congealed into a ring around [Saturn]. The [planet] had organized his cosmos. It was this "world" that man had witnessed the god create, for in truth the creation did not originally refer to [anything on Earth]. In time this ring resolved itself into a series of concentric bands -- first into three and later, for the longest time, into seven. These were the original seven "heavens" or seven "earths." They were also the seven stages of creation, long after misunderstood as seven "days."
_[LIGHT CRESCENT/S APPEARED ON THE RINGS] The light from the unveiled [unseen] Sun illuminated Saturn's encircling ring as a gigantic crescent, and later as seven nested ones. The other half of the band was only dimly lit, forming a crescent in shadow that was nonetheless visible. Both crescents revolved in unison, perpetually chasing each other, around the stationary orb [described as dark- and light-colored twins etc]. This, together with the now rising and setting Sun, enabled man to calculate the passage of time. The visual revolution of these crescents was naturally due to the rotation of the Earth. This means that the Saturn-Earth System must have been at right angles to the Sun-Earth vector (although, as Chris Sherrerd was to point out to me years later, not necessarily perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic).
_[9 SATURN MOONS WERE VISIBLE] Nine smaller satellites, which were not formerly apparent, now appeared to revolve around Saturn. In mythology they became the nine followers, or company, of the god.
_[BRIGHT CROSS-SHAPE APPEARED ON SATURN] A cruciform star-shape also appeared as four bright rays radiating from the central orb. Rightly or wrongly, I initially interpreted these as an atmospheric illusion.
_[POLAR COLUMN CONNECTED EARTH & SATURN] A singular beam of light also appeared to taper upward from Earth's northern horizon, connecting our humble abode to Saturn's glorious realm in the sky. All mythologies speak of this singular beam, this polar column or cosmic tree, this bond which tied heaven to Earth. Despite the apparent impossibility of the system I had managed to reconstruct, nothing perplexed me more at the time than this effulgent axis mundi. Together with the puzzle of the primeval darkness, this so-called world-axis stymied me. What could it really have been?
_[POLAR COLUMN STOOD ATOP A GREAT MOUNTAIN ON EARTH] Mythology also speaks of a universal world mountain located at the north. This was a phenomenon I had understood as a lithic bulge that was raised in gravitational response to Saturn's close proximity. The axis mundi would have rested on top of this bulge which would have accounted for the world-wide belief in the archaic deity resting on his mountain of glory.
_[BLINKING LIGHTS APPEARED BY SATURN] Various atmospheric phenomena also appeared in conjunction with this polar sun in the form of parhelia [sun dogs] and Parry halo arcs, although these, because of their very nature, were understandably impermanent.
_[SATURN CONFIGURATION LOOKED LIKE A GIANT HUMAN] The most amazing aspect of the Saturnian structure, however, was the uncanny resemblance it bore to the human form, especially around the hour of midnight, when the sunlit crescent of its encircling ring(s) appeared as two uplifted arms. The entire apparition was like a resplendent giant towering above the world for all mankind to see.
_[GOLDEN AGE] The Sun itself might have been brighter, but Saturn was much more glorious. For untold generations Saturn's strange apparition became the very focus of man's existence. It was the fountainhead of all religious beliefs and, more than that, the impetus behind the rise of civilization. Unstable as this system might have been, it managed to sustain itself for an unspecified but long period of time. Its formation ushered in an era that mythology remembers as the Golden Age. This was the Edenic childhood of mankind, a time of prosperity and peace, during which the earth was said to have given freely of its bounty. It was an age that man was forever after to recall with nostalgic longing.
_[ICE FILAMENTS CAUSED FLOOD ON EARTH] But in time it, also, came to an end. The two filaments that had detached themselves from Saturn's former spiral had gone into orbit around the Sun. Each successive passage had brought them back into close proximity of the Saturnian system. These were seen as monsters which periodically threatened the god. Eventually at least one of them collided with the Earth. Composed mainly of water, this filament dispersed itself across the Earth in a deluge that lasted for days. Thus the universal flood was a direct result of Saturn's initial flare-up.
_[EARTH TURNED OVER] Saturn, with its cosmos, became unhinged. It was now seen to circle around the sky as the Earth, knocked off its balance by the impact of the collision, began to wobble and topple. Slowly but surely the Saturnian apparition slid down the sides of heaven and sank beyond Earth's trembling horizon. Earth had actually turned head over heels. The god of mankind, dying his death, had drowned in the deluge. With the overturning of the Earth, the Sun reversed its path across the sky, rising where it had formerly set and setting where it had formerly risen. The quarters of the world had been displaced.
_[EARTH RESTABILIZED] But all was not lost. After a while the Earth righted itself and Saturn was seen to return to his post in his former glory. The god had risen from the dead. To others he had been saved by building an ark. Noah was actually Saturn ... while his ark was the sunlit crescent. Textual evidence of Noah having sailed through the sky actually exists. Moreover, the word "ark" derives from a root that, in more than one language, translates into an ancient name for Saturn. The panic with which mankind had witnessed the death and disappearance of its divinity was temporarily allayed.
_[BLOTCHES FORMED ON SATURN] But, ere long it became apparent that something was amiss with the deity. The central orb lost its brightness; wrinkles and blotches began to appear over its surface. The luminary's gaseous envelope was re-asserting itself. To those who looked on in horror, the risen deity had been struck with leprosy; to others, he was beginning to show signs of his advancing age.
_[POLAR COLUMN SEVERED] In the end, whatever force had held the planets rotating on the same axis dissipated. The polar column severed itself from the main body, while the ringed structure was seen to break up. Saturn's cosmos had become unglued and literally fell apart. [Saturn], to some still dead, had been dismembered.
_[SATURN DEPARTED] Earth and Saturn parted company. The giant planet, growing ever dimmer, was seen to move slowly away. No longer a sun, it grew smaller as it rose above the Earth until, eventually, it became the pin-point of light we now see in the night where it was free to reconstruct a new system of rings. In the surrounding sea of stars that now became the order of the night, mankind saw the dissected members of its god. Thus Saturn was the only deity who was born his own son; who lived on Earth; who died and descended to the underworld; who rose again from the dead and finally ascended into heaven. If the tale sounds familiar, you now know its origin. ...
_[TALBOTT'S MODEL] [In 1976 or 1977] The long-awaited copy of Talbott's paper on Saturn arrived. Titled "The Universal Monarch: An Essay on the Lost Symbolism of Saturn," it outlined the mythological motifs associated with Saturn's northern cosmos. The first thing that struck me on reading it was the close similarity -- nay, near identity -- that Talbott's Saturnian configuration had to my own model. It was immediately obvious that Talbott and I had been digging in the same well. There were differences, especially in interpretation, but, in the totality of the scheme, these were minor. ... While Talbott's paper included many items which were not contained in my work, ... The paper contained nothing about the events prior to Saturn's flare-up, nor did it so much as hint at Saturn's dissolution. The method through which he proferred his revelations was entirely different from mine, stressing symbol rather than myth. A chronological sequence was not even attempted. ... I was elated because if two researchers, working independently of each other, could come to the same unconventional conclusions about a most unconventional celestial arrangement, the derived model could hardly have been the result of an overworked imagination.
_[DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 2 MODELS] In what did Talbott and I differ? Where my research had unearthed nine satellites revolving around the Saturnian orb, Talbott vouched for only seven. Among the varied symbolism associated with the revolving crescents of light and shadow, Talbott included that of the ever battling cosmic twins, a mythological motif I had not yet accounted for.
_[WORLD MOUNTAIN] But our main difference concerned the polar column or axis mundi. While I had visualized the world mountain as an actual uplift of land, Talbott saw the mountain as an analogy of the polar column. In other words, to Talbott, mount and axis were one and the same. Actually, certain texts do speak of mount and axis as if they were one and the same portent; others, however, seem to intimate that the two were separate, even if closely connected, phenomena.
_[MARS & POLAR COLUMN] Certain mythological themes had also made me believe that, at some point, the planet Mars had passed through the fabric of the polar column, temporarily trapping itself there before passing on. A repeat performance was what later severed the polar column. In Talbott's scheme, the polar column is shown to have stretched earthward from Mars, which planet would have been permanently suspended between Saturn and the Earth, rotating on the same common axis with them. Visually, Mars was thus part and parcel of the same configuration. The polar column would then have been seen as belonging to the Saturnian complexity without losing its identity with Mars. While this was not entirely spelled out in Talbott's paper, it was clarified by him in later works. Of the planets Jupiter and Venus nothing was mentioned. This was somewhat strange because my earlier debate with Talbott's brother had eventually led to the role Venus had played in the Saturnian age, and why it was that the Venerian deities of later times were often imbued with Saturnian motifs.
_[POLAR COLUMN TORNADO] In March of 1976 I asked [Fred Jueneman] if he had any ideas on what could have constituted the fabric of the polar column, or, as I phrased it, the trunk of the cosmic tree. ... To him the axis mundi and world mountain were separate phenomena. Very much ... as I had, he interpreted the latter as a tidal uplift of land. But the most important thing he disclosed was the mechanics he had worked out to account for the polar column. Its major constituents he had ascertained to have been air and water vapor. According to him, these were carried upward towards the null-gravity at the apex between the two planets in a columnar Rankine vortex. To put it in a nut-shell, the axis mundi would thus have been a cosmic tornado seen from a distance. The fact is that various texts which had already passed through my hands had actually described the axis as a cyclone, a whirlwind, or churning hurricane.
_[MARS IN POLAR COLUMN CAUSED FLOOD] The Rankine vortex, if that is what it really was, answered another mystery. On the basis of an Assyro-Babylonian text, de Santillana and von Dechend had inferred the occurrence of a second deluge caused by Mars. If, now, the polar column consisted of water vapor, the immense volume of moisture it would have contained would have been released when Mars swooped by and severed it. As the column twisted and sank in its death throes, it would have poured its water on Earth's northern hemisphere. This would account for those traditions which insist on a calamitous flood that roared down from the north. Going further, Jueneman also described the effect of a bolus flow complete with Coriolis tendency which, at times, would have split the central pillar [polar column] into two serpentine spouts. Entwining about each other, these were later to give rise to the god's twisted legs and the mythic caduceus popularly associated with Mercury.
_[JUPITER WAS BEHIND SATURN OR BELOW EARTH] Talbott published his views on the polar configuration at about the same time [1977] I published "The Sun of Night." ... In his opinion, Jupiter would have been invisible from Earth since it was hidden directly behind Saturn. My own research, on the other hand, had disclosed what seemed to be exactly the opposite. Ancient texts from various quarters describe Jupiter as the god and/or star of the south. This led me to believe that Jupiter must have been located in Earth's south polar sky. This configuration would coincidentally have lessened the Roche limit problem since the Earth would have been gravitationally attracted to both giants without succumbing to either.
_[MORE ON TALBOTT'S MODEL] Hard on the heels of "Saturn's Age," Talbott released a slightly longer paper titled "Saturn: Universal Monarch and Dying God." Offered as a special publication through the Research Communications Network, it consisted of a numbered thesis that included the outline of events connected with the polar configuration's dissolution that he had earlier mentioned.
_[DATE OF SATURN SYSTEM] To begin with, Talbott proposed a tentative date for the cosmic catastrophism associated with Saturn. Whereas Velikovsky had opted for a period between 5 and 10,000 years ago as the time slot within which the universal deluge had occurred, Talbott reduced the time span to "within the past 6-8,000 years."
_[BENT POLAR COLUMN] Talbott described the bending of the axis mundi as the beginning of the Saturnian destruction. The bent pillar would have lent the configuration a hunch-backed appearance that was interpreted by the onlookers as a sign of the god's decrepitude. He said nothing about the mottled appearance of the central orb in this respect.
_[TORNADO & RINGS] According to him it was at this point that the cosmic pillar commenced on a churning motion while the ringed structure began to move "in ever widening circles."
_[SATURN DEVOURED MOONS] Still according to Talbott, the deity was seen to devour the seven satellites orbiting around it and that these actually began to disintegrate.
_[FLARE MATERIAL OBSCURED SATURN & FORMED RINGS] Saturn's disappearance was then explained as the clouding of the central orb by the ensuing debris. The seven disintegrating satellites, in Talbott's view, continued to revolve around the clouded center while spewing their own detritus in a multi-spiralled manner. This spiral eventually segregated itself into the seven concentric bands of myth.
_[JUPITER APPEARED AS SATURN LEFT] At some point during this destruction, according to Talbott's scheme, Jupiter finally appeared from behind Saturn, "stole" Saturn's encircling band, and then wandered away from the celestial center. Thus Talbott made it clear that the original ringed structure had actually surrounded the hidden Jupiter and that it was only Earth-bound perspective that had made it appear to encircle Saturn.
_[FLARE] In more than one place, Talbott had made it appear that the enclosing band was formed from material ejected by the Saturnian orb. It is hard to conceive that material ejected by one celestial body would encircle another x-miles away. Or was this, according to Talbott, but another celestial illusion in which the primeval matter had actually been ejected by Jupiter? Was it Jupiter then that flared up?
_[JUPITER APPEARED AS EARTH TURNED OVER] In contradistinction, my scenario had Jupiter appearing from beyond Earth's horizon when the [Earth] flipped over. Saturn and Jupiter were seen to change places. It was said that Saturn made his acquaintance with the southern constellations while the star of the south rose to occupy Saturn's vacated post.
_[SATURN & JUPITER FORMED RINGS] In my scheme the seven bands had actually surrounded the Saturnian orb, rather than merely appearing to do so, from long before the dissolution. These disappeared with Saturn when [Saturn] dropped out of sight. Jupiter was encircled by its own ringed system, which accounts for the apparent "theft."
_[FLOOD WAS IN HEAVEN] According to Talbott, it was this partial destruction of the Saturnian configuration that was later remembered as the universal deluge. Thus, along with de Santillana and von Dechend, but for different reasons, Talbott saw the deluge as a strictly, but perhaps not entirely, celestial event.
_[SATURN'S RESURRECTION] In Talbott's scheme, the resurrection of the deity is explained as the clearing of the obscuring debris which again brought the Saturnian orb into full view. Whether the Jovian planet ever returned to its position behind Saturn was not made clear.
_[FINAL DESTRUCTION] The second and final destruction, blamed on Mars, was described in terms closer to my scenario, as was [Saturn's or Mars'] final withdrawal to the "great beyond." Of the planet Venus there was not a single mention in either of Talbott's two papers.
_[CONFUSION BETWEEN DESTRUCTIONS] One of us, or perhaps even both, had confused some of the earlier events associated with the creation of Saturn's cosmos with those connected with its destruction.
[I can ditto that, but I hope to gain clarity some day. Don't we all?]
CARDONA'S 1988 ELABORATION OF HIS & TALBOTT'S THEN VIEWS ON THE EVOLUTION OF THE SATURN SYSTEM
This is about my 4th post this week. The following are excerpts from the first part of Cardona's 3 part essay, which seems to have appeared in the first 3 issues of Aeon magazine. My headings are in caps in brackets to make it easier to skim. I'll try to paraphrase all of this later. There may be more useful elaboration in the rest of the essay, but I don't know if I'll have time for that myself. I didn't remember that Talbott had suggested a date for the Saturn System between 6 & 8 millennia ago. I think it was between 4 & 6 millennia ago. Apparently, Velikovsky thought it was between 5 & 10 millennia ago and Cardona has mentioned those dates as well.
The Road to Saturn, Dwardu Cardona
https://www.aeonjournal.com/articles/ro ... aturn.html
The Road to Saturn (Excerpts from an Autobiographical Essay) [Journals] [Aeon]
_From: Aeon I:1 (Jan 1988)
_[DIM LONE SATURN IN AGE OF DARKNESS] In prehistoric times, Saturn was the most conspicuous object in the sky. [It] was observed ... as a rotating sphere, which means that markings of some sort were clearly visible on its surface. Since tradition insists there was no way of telling time in those "days," these markings must have been of a fluctuating nature with no specific form retaining a recognizable shape that could have been timed with each rotation. Fluctuating surface markings bespeak an active atmosphere, perhaps in turmoil, and the impression one receives, especially in view of what transpired later, is that Saturn was an unstable gaseous body.
_[NORTH POLAR SATURN] Unlike the Sun, [Saturn] did not rise or set. It simply hung suspended in the north celestial pole, which could only mean that it shared the same axis of rotation with Earth. More than that -- and this was a puzzle I had not yet solved -- the texts speak of this planetary deity as having ruled alone and in darkness. The Sun, it is stated, was completely absent from the sky. Man remembers this age as a time of perpetual night. But for Saturn to have been visible, it must have shed some light. Since the light did not dissolve the gloom the illumination must have been feeble.
_[IDEAL CLIMATE] For fauna and flora to have thrived, Saturn must also have shed warmth. Man himself went completely naked. He knew nothing of chilling winds, cold rain, of snow, or ice.
_[UNIMPRESSIVE SATURN] During this period, the Saturnian orb does not seem to have been paid much heed. It was simply there, invoking neither fear nor reverence.
_[SATURN FLARE] But then an event transpired of such stupendousness that it went down in the annals of mankind as Day One. Saturn suddenly flared up in nova-like brilliance, flooding the Earth and its inhabitants with a blinding light. The [supposed] act of creation had commenced.
_[BLACK MASS ATTACKED SATURN] When the light of the flare-up finally ebbed, man was presented with a ghastly sight. Spewing out from the central orb was a multi-spiralled black mass that revolved and wound itself around [Saturn]. Viewed as a monster which the transformed [planet Saturn] had to subdue, this was also the chaos out of which creation progressed.
_[SUNLIGHT FIRST APPEARED] It seems to have been precisely at this point that the Sun made its appearance [i.e. sunlight appeared, but the Sun itself was not yet visible]. Day now succeeded night. Time had come into the world.
_[SATURN LIGHT OBSCURED STARS] Saturn itself continued to shine as a sun in its own right. It was bright enough to keep the stars, except those of first magnitude, from being seen. It was not however as bright as the Sun and, during the day, it paled into a cloud-like ghost.
_[ICE DEBRIS FILAMENTS & RINGS FORMED] Two filaments detached themselves from Saturn's spiralling matter and were temporarily "lost" in the reaches of space. The rest of this watery debris congealed into a ring around [Saturn]. The [planet] had organized his cosmos. It was this "world" that man had witnessed the god create, for in truth the creation did not originally refer to [anything on Earth]. In time this ring resolved itself into a series of concentric bands -- first into three and later, for the longest time, into seven. These were the original seven "heavens" or seven "earths." They were also the seven stages of creation, long after misunderstood as seven "days."
_[LIGHT CRESCENT/S APPEARED ON THE RINGS] The light from the unveiled [unseen] Sun illuminated Saturn's encircling ring as a gigantic crescent, and later as seven nested ones. The other half of the band was only dimly lit, forming a crescent in shadow that was nonetheless visible. Both crescents revolved in unison, perpetually chasing each other, around the stationary orb [described as dark- and light-colored twins etc]. This, together with the now rising and setting Sun, enabled man to calculate the passage of time. The visual revolution of these crescents was naturally due to the rotation of the Earth. This means that the Saturn-Earth System must have been at right angles to the Sun-Earth vector (although, as Chris Sherrerd was to point out to me years later, not necessarily perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic).
_[9 SATURN MOONS WERE VISIBLE] Nine smaller satellites, which were not formerly apparent, now appeared to revolve around Saturn. In mythology they became the nine followers, or company, of the god.
_[BRIGHT CROSS-SHAPE APPEARED ON SATURN] A cruciform star-shape also appeared as four bright rays radiating from the central orb. Rightly or wrongly, I initially interpreted these as an atmospheric illusion.
_[POLAR COLUMN CONNECTED EARTH & SATURN] A singular beam of light also appeared to taper upward from Earth's northern horizon, connecting our humble abode to Saturn's glorious realm in the sky. All mythologies speak of this singular beam, this polar column or cosmic tree, this bond which tied heaven to Earth. Despite the apparent impossibility of the system I had managed to reconstruct, nothing perplexed me more at the time than this effulgent axis mundi. Together with the puzzle of the primeval darkness, this so-called world-axis stymied me. What could it really have been?
_[POLAR COLUMN STOOD ATOP A GREAT MOUNTAIN ON EARTH] Mythology also speaks of a universal world mountain located at the north. This was a phenomenon I had understood as a lithic bulge that was raised in gravitational response to Saturn's close proximity. The axis mundi would have rested on top of this bulge which would have accounted for the world-wide belief in the archaic deity resting on his mountain of glory.
_[BLINKING LIGHTS APPEARED BY SATURN] Various atmospheric phenomena also appeared in conjunction with this polar sun in the form of parhelia [sun dogs] and Parry halo arcs, although these, because of their very nature, were understandably impermanent.
_[SATURN CONFIGURATION LOOKED LIKE A GIANT HUMAN] The most amazing aspect of the Saturnian structure, however, was the uncanny resemblance it bore to the human form, especially around the hour of midnight, when the sunlit crescent of its encircling ring(s) appeared as two uplifted arms. The entire apparition was like a resplendent giant towering above the world for all mankind to see.
_[GOLDEN AGE] The Sun itself might have been brighter, but Saturn was much more glorious. For untold generations Saturn's strange apparition became the very focus of man's existence. It was the fountainhead of all religious beliefs and, more than that, the impetus behind the rise of civilization. Unstable as this system might have been, it managed to sustain itself for an unspecified but long period of time. Its formation ushered in an era that mythology remembers as the Golden Age. This was the Edenic childhood of mankind, a time of prosperity and peace, during which the earth was said to have given freely of its bounty. It was an age that man was forever after to recall with nostalgic longing.
_[ICE FILAMENTS CAUSED FLOOD ON EARTH] But in time it, also, came to an end. The two filaments that had detached themselves from Saturn's former spiral had gone into orbit around the Sun. Each successive passage had brought them back into close proximity of the Saturnian system. These were seen as monsters which periodically threatened the god. Eventually at least one of them collided with the Earth. Composed mainly of water, this filament dispersed itself across the Earth in a deluge that lasted for days. Thus the universal flood was a direct result of Saturn's initial flare-up.
_[EARTH TURNED OVER] Saturn, with its cosmos, became unhinged. It was now seen to circle around the sky as the Earth, knocked off its balance by the impact of the collision, began to wobble and topple. Slowly but surely the Saturnian apparition slid down the sides of heaven and sank beyond Earth's trembling horizon. Earth had actually turned head over heels. The god of mankind, dying his death, had drowned in the deluge. With the overturning of the Earth, the Sun reversed its path across the sky, rising where it had formerly set and setting where it had formerly risen. The quarters of the world had been displaced.
_[EARTH RESTABILIZED] But all was not lost. After a while the Earth righted itself and Saturn was seen to return to his post in his former glory. The god had risen from the dead. To others he had been saved by building an ark. Noah was actually Saturn ... while his ark was the sunlit crescent. Textual evidence of Noah having sailed through the sky actually exists. Moreover, the word "ark" derives from a root that, in more than one language, translates into an ancient name for Saturn. The panic with which mankind had witnessed the death and disappearance of its divinity was temporarily allayed.
_[BLOTCHES FORMED ON SATURN] But, ere long it became apparent that something was amiss with the deity. The central orb lost its brightness; wrinkles and blotches began to appear over its surface. The luminary's gaseous envelope was re-asserting itself. To those who looked on in horror, the risen deity had been struck with leprosy; to others, he was beginning to show signs of his advancing age.
_[POLAR COLUMN SEVERED] In the end, whatever force had held the planets rotating on the same axis dissipated. The polar column severed itself from the main body, while the ringed structure was seen to break up. Saturn's cosmos had become unglued and literally fell apart. [Saturn], to some still dead, had been dismembered.
_[SATURN DEPARTED] Earth and Saturn parted company. The giant planet, growing ever dimmer, was seen to move slowly away. No longer a sun, it grew smaller as it rose above the Earth until, eventually, it became the pin-point of light we now see in the night where it was free to reconstruct a new system of rings. In the surrounding sea of stars that now became the order of the night, mankind saw the dissected members of its god. Thus Saturn was the only deity who was born his own son; who lived on Earth; who died and descended to the underworld; who rose again from the dead and finally ascended into heaven. If the tale sounds familiar, you now know its origin. ...
_[TALBOTT'S MODEL] [In 1976 or 1977] The long-awaited copy of Talbott's paper on Saturn arrived. Titled "The Universal Monarch: An Essay on the Lost Symbolism of Saturn," it outlined the mythological motifs associated with Saturn's northern cosmos. The first thing that struck me on reading it was the close similarity -- nay, near identity -- that Talbott's Saturnian configuration had to my own model. It was immediately obvious that Talbott and I had been digging in the same well. There were differences, especially in interpretation, but, in the totality of the scheme, these were minor. ... While Talbott's paper included many items which were not contained in my work, ... The paper contained nothing about the events prior to Saturn's flare-up, nor did it so much as hint at Saturn's dissolution. The method through which he proferred his revelations was entirely different from mine, stressing symbol rather than myth. A chronological sequence was not even attempted. ... I was elated because if two researchers, working independently of each other, could come to the same unconventional conclusions about a most unconventional celestial arrangement, the derived model could hardly have been the result of an overworked imagination.
_[DIFFERENCES BETWEEN 2 MODELS] In what did Talbott and I differ? Where my research had unearthed nine satellites revolving around the Saturnian orb, Talbott vouched for only seven. Among the varied symbolism associated with the revolving crescents of light and shadow, Talbott included that of the ever battling cosmic twins, a mythological motif I had not yet accounted for.
_[WORLD MOUNTAIN] But our main difference concerned the polar column or axis mundi. While I had visualized the world mountain as an actual uplift of land, Talbott saw the mountain as an analogy of the polar column. In other words, to Talbott, mount and axis were one and the same. Actually, certain texts do speak of mount and axis as if they were one and the same portent; others, however, seem to intimate that the two were separate, even if closely connected, phenomena.
_[MARS & POLAR COLUMN] Certain mythological themes had also made me believe that, at some point, the planet Mars had passed through the fabric of the polar column, temporarily trapping itself there before passing on. A repeat performance was what later severed the polar column. In Talbott's scheme, the polar column is shown to have stretched earthward from Mars, which planet would have been permanently suspended between Saturn and the Earth, rotating on the same common axis with them. Visually, Mars was thus part and parcel of the same configuration. The polar column would then have been seen as belonging to the Saturnian complexity without losing its identity with Mars. While this was not entirely spelled out in Talbott's paper, it was clarified by him in later works. Of the planets Jupiter and Venus nothing was mentioned. This was somewhat strange because my earlier debate with Talbott's brother had eventually led to the role Venus had played in the Saturnian age, and why it was that the Venerian deities of later times were often imbued with Saturnian motifs.
_[POLAR COLUMN TORNADO] In March of 1976 I asked [Fred Jueneman] if he had any ideas on what could have constituted the fabric of the polar column, or, as I phrased it, the trunk of the cosmic tree. ... To him the axis mundi and world mountain were separate phenomena. Very much ... as I had, he interpreted the latter as a tidal uplift of land. But the most important thing he disclosed was the mechanics he had worked out to account for the polar column. Its major constituents he had ascertained to have been air and water vapor. According to him, these were carried upward towards the null-gravity at the apex between the two planets in a columnar Rankine vortex. To put it in a nut-shell, the axis mundi would thus have been a cosmic tornado seen from a distance. The fact is that various texts which had already passed through my hands had actually described the axis as a cyclone, a whirlwind, or churning hurricane.
_[MARS IN POLAR COLUMN CAUSED FLOOD] The Rankine vortex, if that is what it really was, answered another mystery. On the basis of an Assyro-Babylonian text, de Santillana and von Dechend had inferred the occurrence of a second deluge caused by Mars. If, now, the polar column consisted of water vapor, the immense volume of moisture it would have contained would have been released when Mars swooped by and severed it. As the column twisted and sank in its death throes, it would have poured its water on Earth's northern hemisphere. This would account for those traditions which insist on a calamitous flood that roared down from the north. Going further, Jueneman also described the effect of a bolus flow complete with Coriolis tendency which, at times, would have split the central pillar [polar column] into two serpentine spouts. Entwining about each other, these were later to give rise to the god's twisted legs and the mythic caduceus popularly associated with Mercury.
_[JUPITER WAS BEHIND SATURN OR BELOW EARTH] Talbott published his views on the polar configuration at about the same time [1977] I published "The Sun of Night." ... In his opinion, Jupiter would have been invisible from Earth since it was hidden directly behind Saturn. My own research, on the other hand, had disclosed what seemed to be exactly the opposite. Ancient texts from various quarters describe Jupiter as the god and/or star of the south. This led me to believe that Jupiter must have been located in Earth's south polar sky. This configuration would coincidentally have lessened the Roche limit problem since the Earth would have been gravitationally attracted to both giants without succumbing to either.
_[MORE ON TALBOTT'S MODEL] Hard on the heels of "Saturn's Age," Talbott released a slightly longer paper titled "Saturn: Universal Monarch and Dying God." Offered as a special publication through the Research Communications Network, it consisted of a numbered thesis that included the outline of events connected with the polar configuration's dissolution that he had earlier mentioned.
_[DATE OF SATURN SYSTEM] To begin with, Talbott proposed a tentative date for the cosmic catastrophism associated with Saturn. Whereas Velikovsky had opted for a period between 5 and 10,000 years ago as the time slot within which the universal deluge had occurred, Talbott reduced the time span to "within the past 6-8,000 years."
_[BENT POLAR COLUMN] Talbott described the bending of the axis mundi as the beginning of the Saturnian destruction. The bent pillar would have lent the configuration a hunch-backed appearance that was interpreted by the onlookers as a sign of the god's decrepitude. He said nothing about the mottled appearance of the central orb in this respect.
_[TORNADO & RINGS] According to him it was at this point that the cosmic pillar commenced on a churning motion while the ringed structure began to move "in ever widening circles."
_[SATURN DEVOURED MOONS] Still according to Talbott, the deity was seen to devour the seven satellites orbiting around it and that these actually began to disintegrate.
_[FLARE MATERIAL OBSCURED SATURN & FORMED RINGS] Saturn's disappearance was then explained as the clouding of the central orb by the ensuing debris. The seven disintegrating satellites, in Talbott's view, continued to revolve around the clouded center while spewing their own detritus in a multi-spiralled manner. This spiral eventually segregated itself into the seven concentric bands of myth.
_[JUPITER APPEARED AS SATURN LEFT] At some point during this destruction, according to Talbott's scheme, Jupiter finally appeared from behind Saturn, "stole" Saturn's encircling band, and then wandered away from the celestial center. Thus Talbott made it clear that the original ringed structure had actually surrounded the hidden Jupiter and that it was only Earth-bound perspective that had made it appear to encircle Saturn.
_[FLARE] In more than one place, Talbott had made it appear that the enclosing band was formed from material ejected by the Saturnian orb. It is hard to conceive that material ejected by one celestial body would encircle another x-miles away. Or was this, according to Talbott, but another celestial illusion in which the primeval matter had actually been ejected by Jupiter? Was it Jupiter then that flared up?
_[JUPITER APPEARED AS EARTH TURNED OVER] In contradistinction, my scenario had Jupiter appearing from beyond Earth's horizon when the [Earth] flipped over. Saturn and Jupiter were seen to change places. It was said that Saturn made his acquaintance with the southern constellations while the star of the south rose to occupy Saturn's vacated post.
_[SATURN & JUPITER FORMED RINGS] In my scheme the seven bands had actually surrounded the Saturnian orb, rather than merely appearing to do so, from long before the dissolution. These disappeared with Saturn when [Saturn] dropped out of sight. Jupiter was encircled by its own ringed system, which accounts for the apparent "theft."
_[FLOOD WAS IN HEAVEN] According to Talbott, it was this partial destruction of the Saturnian configuration that was later remembered as the universal deluge. Thus, along with de Santillana and von Dechend, but for different reasons, Talbott saw the deluge as a strictly, but perhaps not entirely, celestial event.
_[SATURN'S RESURRECTION] In Talbott's scheme, the resurrection of the deity is explained as the clearing of the obscuring debris which again brought the Saturnian orb into full view. Whether the Jovian planet ever returned to its position behind Saturn was not made clear.
_[FINAL DESTRUCTION] The second and final destruction, blamed on Mars, was described in terms closer to my scenario, as was [Saturn's or Mars'] final withdrawal to the "great beyond." Of the planet Venus there was not a single mention in either of Talbott's two papers.
_[CONFUSION BETWEEN DESTRUCTIONS] One of us, or perhaps even both, had confused some of the earlier events associated with the creation of Saturn's cosmos with those connected with its destruction.
[I can ditto that, but I hope to gain clarity some day. Don't we all?]
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
118558
REPHRASING PREVIOUS POST'S INFO ON EVOLUTION OF THE SATURN SYSTEM - PART 1
It'll take me a while to finish this, but I want to get posted what I've done so far.
The Road to Saturn, Dwardu Cardona
https://www.aeonjournal.com/articles/ro ... aturn.html
__AGE OF DARKNESS.
.Saturn glowed dimly; it was alone and stationary in the sky above Earth's north pole.
.Everything was dark; there was no sunlight.
.Saturn had fluid surface features, maybe clouds, that indicated rotation, but time could not be measured by their movements.
.Earth's climate was ideal, as heat from Saturn warmed the Earth.
__THE GOLDEN AGE.
.After many generations [?] Saturn suddenly had a great flare-up or nova, which was called Creation of a new age.
.A black mass [cloud of dust?] wrapped around Saturn; it was called a chaos monster.
.Sunlight then arrived, though the Sun was not visible.
.Saturn's light at night prevented stars from being seen, except for first magnitude stars.
.In daylight Saturn was very dim.
.Two filaments of ice and dust formed and detached from Saturn, went in orbit around the Sun and came back much later to cause a Flood on Earth.
[I'm wondering if those filaments formed the meteor streams which now move on elliptical orbits between Jupiter and Mercury.]
.Similar matter formed into rings around Saturn, first into 3 rings and later into 7, which became known as 7 days of creation and 7 heavens.
.The bright crescent on the Saturn band or rings became visible, and time-keeping began
.The bright and darker crescents were thought of as twins, a dark one and a light one.
.The crescents appeared to revolve around Saturn due to Earth's rotation.
.The line from the Sun to Earth must have been at about a right angle to the line of the Saturn System, where the polar column soon appeared.
.9 Saturn moons were visible from Earth, which Saturn later appeared to "devour".
.A bright column of probably ice and dust formed a pine-tree-like shape between the Earth, Mars, Venus and Saturn.
.A somewhat pyramid- or cone-shaped mountain was visible beyond the northern horizon which the base of the polar column appeared to rest on.
.There were some blinking lights around Saturn.
.The Saturn system looked like a giant humanoid angel or saint: Saturn looked like the head, the crescent like upraised arms at night, the polar column like a skirt or robe.
.This angel was glorious-looking at night, making it probably as bright as evenings are now; it was widely thought to be God and was revered.
REPHRASING PREVIOUS POST'S INFO ON EVOLUTION OF THE SATURN SYSTEM - PART 1
It'll take me a while to finish this, but I want to get posted what I've done so far.
The Road to Saturn, Dwardu Cardona
https://www.aeonjournal.com/articles/ro ... aturn.html
__AGE OF DARKNESS.
.Saturn glowed dimly; it was alone and stationary in the sky above Earth's north pole.
.Everything was dark; there was no sunlight.
.Saturn had fluid surface features, maybe clouds, that indicated rotation, but time could not be measured by their movements.
.Earth's climate was ideal, as heat from Saturn warmed the Earth.
__THE GOLDEN AGE.
.After many generations [?] Saturn suddenly had a great flare-up or nova, which was called Creation of a new age.
.A black mass [cloud of dust?] wrapped around Saturn; it was called a chaos monster.
.Sunlight then arrived, though the Sun was not visible.
.Saturn's light at night prevented stars from being seen, except for first magnitude stars.
.In daylight Saturn was very dim.
.Two filaments of ice and dust formed and detached from Saturn, went in orbit around the Sun and came back much later to cause a Flood on Earth.
[I'm wondering if those filaments formed the meteor streams which now move on elliptical orbits between Jupiter and Mercury.]
.Similar matter formed into rings around Saturn, first into 3 rings and later into 7, which became known as 7 days of creation and 7 heavens.
.The bright crescent on the Saturn band or rings became visible, and time-keeping began
.The bright and darker crescents were thought of as twins, a dark one and a light one.
.The crescents appeared to revolve around Saturn due to Earth's rotation.
.The line from the Sun to Earth must have been at about a right angle to the line of the Saturn System, where the polar column soon appeared.
.9 Saturn moons were visible from Earth, which Saturn later appeared to "devour".
.A bright column of probably ice and dust formed a pine-tree-like shape between the Earth, Mars, Venus and Saturn.
.A somewhat pyramid- or cone-shaped mountain was visible beyond the northern horizon which the base of the polar column appeared to rest on.
.There were some blinking lights around Saturn.
.The Saturn system looked like a giant humanoid angel or saint: Saturn looked like the head, the crescent like upraised arms at night, the polar column like a skirt or robe.
.This angel was glorious-looking at night, making it probably as bright as evenings are now; it was widely thought to be God and was revered.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
118958
CATASTROPHISM.COM EXCERPTS ON VENUS COMET ETC
I'll try to post more from the previous post theme tomorrow or so.
The River of Ocean [Journals] [SIS Review]
_China: the encircling serpent evolving into the phoenix, symbolising the cosmic wind, with the Saturnian urbild in the centre. Han dynasty: 206 BC.
[NORSE MIDGARD SERPENT WAS COMET VENUS]
_During one of many stupendous catastrophes which beset the Saturnian configuration, Venus was ejected from the common axis of rotation. As seen from terrestrial perspective, it commenced to circle around the centre while trailing an enormous cometary tail in an ever widening spiral behind it. As it widened its orbit, Venus was seen to move outside the Saturnian orb while it continued to circle its parent. According to Talbott, this was the moving image that gave rise to the belief in the serpent's banishment into the void outside. This would accord well with the flinging of Jormungand by Odin/Saturn into the shimmering' of the celestial sea surrounding Midgard. As Cochrane and Talbott developed the theme [83], the cometary tail of Venus continued to widen its spiral until it eventually congealed' into a toroid ring visually seen to enclose Saturn. (This torus-cloud' could not, however, have been suspended above Saturn as Talbott had earlier surmised [84]). Thus Jormungand was seen to grasp his own tail while enclosing the celestial sea within his coils. In similar analogy, Okeanos completed the circle of his flowing stream. The answer to the question posed earlier now becomes clear: the serpent of Midgard was a cometary entity....
[VENUS PULLED ATMOSPHERE FROM MARS]
__The Evolution of the Cosmogonic Egg [Journals] [Aeon]
_Ev Cochrane has posited that, during the primeval days with which we are concerned, the planet Venus had originally appeared plumb in the center of the Saturnian orb. Superimposed on the planet Venus, as seen from Earth, was the smaller planet Mars. Now Talbott informs us that, during this period, Venus was actually "pulling atmosphere from Mars," which gas then spiraled around Venus, lending the latter a silvery "ovoid shape." (57)
__From Myth to a Physical Model [Journals] [Aeon]
the Sun (a critical component). In the first, the dark orb of Mars appears in the center of a spherical Venus, which in turn rests visually in the center of Saturn; in the other image Venus' "atmosphere" has acquired an ovoid shape. In the second part of this series, I will give the reasons for believing that this evolving form of Venus was due to Venus pulling atmosphere from Mars, this gas then spiraling around Venus. What happens to this gas - or dust - cloud is fundamental to the mythical history of the configuration.
[STREAM OF MATERIAL BETWEEN MARS & EARTH; VENUS TAIL]
The Original Star of Dawn [Articles]
_Due to a certain imbalance which developed in the orbit of Mars as the entire Saturnian configuration circled the Sun, Mars moved closer to the Earth and was thus seen from terrestrial perspective as dropping low, while growing larger in size. It also emitted, and/or attracted from the Earth, an outflow of iridescent material that was visualized by ancient man as a cosmic mountain of vast proportions. So memorable was this event that, in the Near East, it continued to be commemorated as the Leila Nakhla, or Night of the Drop, well into the historic era. Concurrent with this event, Venus was also ejected from the common axis of rotation amid a celestial conflagration. And it is this conflagration, seen atop the cosmic mountain, that accounts for the mythological burning to death of Quetzalcoatl atop a funeral pyre. The debris that accompanied this holocaust temporarily screened the Saturnian orb from terrestrial eyes even as Venus commenced to circle around the center while trailing an enormous cometary tail in an ever winding spiral behind it. And this is why it was said that Quetzalcoatl temporarily disappeared when his heart turned into the Morning Star.
[VENUS' TURQUOISE STREAM OF DUST]
The Mythical History of the Comet Venus (Part I) [Journals] [Aeon]
_The small orb at the apex of the column was the reddish planet Mars, the heaven-sustaining giant and warrior-hero of global myth. Spiraling out from the polar axis was a turquoise stream of gas or dust, terminating in the orb of Venus, remembered around the world as the mother goddess. Myth-making imagination perceived this projection as a revolving curl of "lifebreath," a circling beard or sidelock, or the termination of a rope or cord extending from its coil....
[BROWN DWARF SATURN ICE MOONS]
The Electric Saturnian System [Journals] [Aeon]
The constituents of the atmospheres of brown dwarf stars, so far as they have been determined, seem to include water, and other, molecules which are helpful to life. That would explain the icy moons of Jupiter and Saturn as well as the reports of water misting down onto Earth when it was still a satellite of proto-Saturn. Even Jupiter's moon, Io, I believe, was originally covered with ice. The sulfurous deposits on that moon are a result of continuous electric discharges from Jupiter, which convert the oxygen in the ice to sulfur. We see another example on the next closest moon to Jupiter, Europa, where Jupiter's thunderbolts have etched red furrows across its icy surface in the recent past.
[SATURN'S ORIGIN; SATURN LOOKED LARGER THAN THE MOON DOES NOW]
Prelude to Creation [Journals] [Aeon]
_Saturn is the end result of what had previously been a sub-brown dwarf star free floating in space outside the demarcation of the Solar System. _It was, however, an open-ended orbit which, in keeping with proto-Saturn's poleward motion, turned into an ever-closing spiral. Slowly but surely, this brought the proto-Saturnian system ever closer to the Sun's equatorial plane.
_During this time, Earth was a satellite of this proto-Saturnian sub-star which, because of its proximity, loomed large in the sky as a distinct disk larger than the apparent size of the full Moon. During this same period, a nebulous disk surrounded the Saturnian primary.
[COMETS & SWARMS OF ORGANISMS - WAS THERE A CONNECTION?]
Cometary Earth Contact And Life Part 2 Ch.II (The Mysterious Comet) [Books]
... In 1869 was another comet of some distinction.4 I will briefly recapitulate the insect invasion of 1869. THE INSECT INVASION, 1869
(a) Great scarcity of insects discussed in all entomological magazines and newspapers. (The Field, July 31 and August 14, 1869.)
(b) Number of fireflies in Kent, insects foreign to England. Weekly Dispatch called them "a nuisance." (July 17-20.)
(c) Vast quantity of drowned aphides (green fly) off the coast of Lincolnshire, giving a large tract of the sea a thick, pea-soup appearance. Off the coast of Norfolk a long strip of drowned ladybirds, 2 or 3 miles long and about 10 feet wide (July). (Zoologist, 1869.)
(d) Columns of aphides descended from sky at Bury St. Edmunds, so massed that "they gave off a rank odour, and so dense that, for anybody surrounded by them, it was difficult to breathe." On the same day, at Chelmsford, a similar cloud descended. This town is about 40 miles south of Bury. (Gardeners' Chronicle, July 31, August 7.)
(e) Further clouds of aphides, not only in Essex but in Kent. In and about Maidstone "fogs of aphides shut off sunlight." They darkened the air for days together and were a dangerous pest. (Maidstone Journal, August 23.)
(f) Invasion of ladybirds. Between Margate and Nore Light thousands alighted on a ship on August 9. On August 13, a cloud seen over Channel which descended upon Rams-gate. Men were employed to sweep them into sewers. Where did they come from, all these entities? Frogs, eels, fishes, snails, periwinkles, and crabs! They remain extraordinary events only because the conventional doctrine in regard to comets and the divorce between the earth and the celestial sphere is accepted by the ignorant and apathetic laity.
_These events in May 1881 coincided with other somewhat significant phenomena. A great comet approached the earth in 1880 and was followed by another in 1882 and yet another in 1887____. They were in each case twin or tandem comets and came from the direction of Sirius, that star regarded by the ancients as of ... sinister import.
_In 1880, a year marked by intermittent heat waves and big thunderstorms, England, Northern France, and North America experienced a curious invasion of big black flies. On August 18, 1880, the town of Havre found long black flies everywhere. Millions of them fell in the streets, and on the houses, in the harbour, on the sails of ships were precipitated these flies. Pilot boats entering the harbour from the Channel were black with them. They were exhausted flies, which fell when touched and could not move when picked up. Most of them fell into the water, or were swept there, and this great mass perished. (Journal des Debats, Paris, August 20; Daily Telegraph, London, August 21.) Three days later, on August 21, a cloud of long black flies, which occupied 20 minutes in passing, were seen at East Picton, Nova Scotia, many flying low and appearing to fall into the sea. (Halifax Citizen, August 21.) On September 2, off the coast of Norfolk, England, another vast cloud appeared, and "millions and millions" of them clung to a schooner they encountered, so great being the plague that the sailors were compelled to seek refuge under deck for five hours, when the flies were thrown overboard by shovelfuls and the remainder washed off the decks by buckets of water and brooms. All these flies were torpid and exhausted. (Entomologist's Monthly Magazine, November 1880.) On September 4, two days later, a steamboat on the Hudson River met a vast cloud of flies, reaching southward from shore to shore, as far as the eye could reach, and resembling a drift of black snow. They were long, black flies. On September 5, the next day, another compact cloud of flies, occupying half an hour in passing, appeared again off Nova Scotia, at Guysboro', hosts falling into the water. The Brooklyn Eagle, September 7, said they came from the direction of the east. What is to be said of these visitations, clouds and swarms of long, black, exhausted and torpid flies, from August 18 to September 5, 1880? They are found in the north, appear over the ocean flying to seek refuge and nourishment. ... On 24th "a countless multitude" arrived in Kent and Surrey, and fires were built to burn millions of them. On the same day they reached London, pelting into the streets, rattling like "coloured hail " against windows, falling into gutters. They drifted as far north as Worcester. On the 25th another vast invasion appeared at Dover, coming as if from France. People had to open umbrellas to keep off the attentions of the plague. Another cloud rolled in from no place of origin ever determined. (Charles Fort in Lo!,pp. 241-2, citing The Times.)
CATASTROPHISM.COM EXCERPTS ON VENUS COMET ETC
I'll try to post more from the previous post theme tomorrow or so.
The River of Ocean [Journals] [SIS Review]
_China: the encircling serpent evolving into the phoenix, symbolising the cosmic wind, with the Saturnian urbild in the centre. Han dynasty: 206 BC.
[NORSE MIDGARD SERPENT WAS COMET VENUS]
_During one of many stupendous catastrophes which beset the Saturnian configuration, Venus was ejected from the common axis of rotation. As seen from terrestrial perspective, it commenced to circle around the centre while trailing an enormous cometary tail in an ever widening spiral behind it. As it widened its orbit, Venus was seen to move outside the Saturnian orb while it continued to circle its parent. According to Talbott, this was the moving image that gave rise to the belief in the serpent's banishment into the void outside. This would accord well with the flinging of Jormungand by Odin/Saturn into the shimmering' of the celestial sea surrounding Midgard. As Cochrane and Talbott developed the theme [83], the cometary tail of Venus continued to widen its spiral until it eventually congealed' into a toroid ring visually seen to enclose Saturn. (This torus-cloud' could not, however, have been suspended above Saturn as Talbott had earlier surmised [84]). Thus Jormungand was seen to grasp his own tail while enclosing the celestial sea within his coils. In similar analogy, Okeanos completed the circle of his flowing stream. The answer to the question posed earlier now becomes clear: the serpent of Midgard was a cometary entity....
[VENUS PULLED ATMOSPHERE FROM MARS]
__The Evolution of the Cosmogonic Egg [Journals] [Aeon]
_Ev Cochrane has posited that, during the primeval days with which we are concerned, the planet Venus had originally appeared plumb in the center of the Saturnian orb. Superimposed on the planet Venus, as seen from Earth, was the smaller planet Mars. Now Talbott informs us that, during this period, Venus was actually "pulling atmosphere from Mars," which gas then spiraled around Venus, lending the latter a silvery "ovoid shape." (57)
__From Myth to a Physical Model [Journals] [Aeon]
the Sun (a critical component). In the first, the dark orb of Mars appears in the center of a spherical Venus, which in turn rests visually in the center of Saturn; in the other image Venus' "atmosphere" has acquired an ovoid shape. In the second part of this series, I will give the reasons for believing that this evolving form of Venus was due to Venus pulling atmosphere from Mars, this gas then spiraling around Venus. What happens to this gas - or dust - cloud is fundamental to the mythical history of the configuration.
[STREAM OF MATERIAL BETWEEN MARS & EARTH; VENUS TAIL]
The Original Star of Dawn [Articles]
_Due to a certain imbalance which developed in the orbit of Mars as the entire Saturnian configuration circled the Sun, Mars moved closer to the Earth and was thus seen from terrestrial perspective as dropping low, while growing larger in size. It also emitted, and/or attracted from the Earth, an outflow of iridescent material that was visualized by ancient man as a cosmic mountain of vast proportions. So memorable was this event that, in the Near East, it continued to be commemorated as the Leila Nakhla, or Night of the Drop, well into the historic era. Concurrent with this event, Venus was also ejected from the common axis of rotation amid a celestial conflagration. And it is this conflagration, seen atop the cosmic mountain, that accounts for the mythological burning to death of Quetzalcoatl atop a funeral pyre. The debris that accompanied this holocaust temporarily screened the Saturnian orb from terrestrial eyes even as Venus commenced to circle around the center while trailing an enormous cometary tail in an ever winding spiral behind it. And this is why it was said that Quetzalcoatl temporarily disappeared when his heart turned into the Morning Star.
[VENUS' TURQUOISE STREAM OF DUST]
The Mythical History of the Comet Venus (Part I) [Journals] [Aeon]
_The small orb at the apex of the column was the reddish planet Mars, the heaven-sustaining giant and warrior-hero of global myth. Spiraling out from the polar axis was a turquoise stream of gas or dust, terminating in the orb of Venus, remembered around the world as the mother goddess. Myth-making imagination perceived this projection as a revolving curl of "lifebreath," a circling beard or sidelock, or the termination of a rope or cord extending from its coil....
[BROWN DWARF SATURN ICE MOONS]
The Electric Saturnian System [Journals] [Aeon]
The constituents of the atmospheres of brown dwarf stars, so far as they have been determined, seem to include water, and other, molecules which are helpful to life. That would explain the icy moons of Jupiter and Saturn as well as the reports of water misting down onto Earth when it was still a satellite of proto-Saturn. Even Jupiter's moon, Io, I believe, was originally covered with ice. The sulfurous deposits on that moon are a result of continuous electric discharges from Jupiter, which convert the oxygen in the ice to sulfur. We see another example on the next closest moon to Jupiter, Europa, where Jupiter's thunderbolts have etched red furrows across its icy surface in the recent past.
[SATURN'S ORIGIN; SATURN LOOKED LARGER THAN THE MOON DOES NOW]
Prelude to Creation [Journals] [Aeon]
_Saturn is the end result of what had previously been a sub-brown dwarf star free floating in space outside the demarcation of the Solar System. _It was, however, an open-ended orbit which, in keeping with proto-Saturn's poleward motion, turned into an ever-closing spiral. Slowly but surely, this brought the proto-Saturnian system ever closer to the Sun's equatorial plane.
_During this time, Earth was a satellite of this proto-Saturnian sub-star which, because of its proximity, loomed large in the sky as a distinct disk larger than the apparent size of the full Moon. During this same period, a nebulous disk surrounded the Saturnian primary.
[COMETS & SWARMS OF ORGANISMS - WAS THERE A CONNECTION?]
Cometary Earth Contact And Life Part 2 Ch.II (The Mysterious Comet) [Books]
... In 1869 was another comet of some distinction.4 I will briefly recapitulate the insect invasion of 1869. THE INSECT INVASION, 1869
(a) Great scarcity of insects discussed in all entomological magazines and newspapers. (The Field, July 31 and August 14, 1869.)
(b) Number of fireflies in Kent, insects foreign to England. Weekly Dispatch called them "a nuisance." (July 17-20.)
(c) Vast quantity of drowned aphides (green fly) off the coast of Lincolnshire, giving a large tract of the sea a thick, pea-soup appearance. Off the coast of Norfolk a long strip of drowned ladybirds, 2 or 3 miles long and about 10 feet wide (July). (Zoologist, 1869.)
(d) Columns of aphides descended from sky at Bury St. Edmunds, so massed that "they gave off a rank odour, and so dense that, for anybody surrounded by them, it was difficult to breathe." On the same day, at Chelmsford, a similar cloud descended. This town is about 40 miles south of Bury. (Gardeners' Chronicle, July 31, August 7.)
(e) Further clouds of aphides, not only in Essex but in Kent. In and about Maidstone "fogs of aphides shut off sunlight." They darkened the air for days together and were a dangerous pest. (Maidstone Journal, August 23.)
(f) Invasion of ladybirds. Between Margate and Nore Light thousands alighted on a ship on August 9. On August 13, a cloud seen over Channel which descended upon Rams-gate. Men were employed to sweep them into sewers. Where did they come from, all these entities? Frogs, eels, fishes, snails, periwinkles, and crabs! They remain extraordinary events only because the conventional doctrine in regard to comets and the divorce between the earth and the celestial sphere is accepted by the ignorant and apathetic laity.
_These events in May 1881 coincided with other somewhat significant phenomena. A great comet approached the earth in 1880 and was followed by another in 1882 and yet another in 1887____. They were in each case twin or tandem comets and came from the direction of Sirius, that star regarded by the ancients as of ... sinister import.
_In 1880, a year marked by intermittent heat waves and big thunderstorms, England, Northern France, and North America experienced a curious invasion of big black flies. On August 18, 1880, the town of Havre found long black flies everywhere. Millions of them fell in the streets, and on the houses, in the harbour, on the sails of ships were precipitated these flies. Pilot boats entering the harbour from the Channel were black with them. They were exhausted flies, which fell when touched and could not move when picked up. Most of them fell into the water, or were swept there, and this great mass perished. (Journal des Debats, Paris, August 20; Daily Telegraph, London, August 21.) Three days later, on August 21, a cloud of long black flies, which occupied 20 minutes in passing, were seen at East Picton, Nova Scotia, many flying low and appearing to fall into the sea. (Halifax Citizen, August 21.) On September 2, off the coast of Norfolk, England, another vast cloud appeared, and "millions and millions" of them clung to a schooner they encountered, so great being the plague that the sailors were compelled to seek refuge under deck for five hours, when the flies were thrown overboard by shovelfuls and the remainder washed off the decks by buckets of water and brooms. All these flies were torpid and exhausted. (Entomologist's Monthly Magazine, November 1880.) On September 4, two days later, a steamboat on the Hudson River met a vast cloud of flies, reaching southward from shore to shore, as far as the eye could reach, and resembling a drift of black snow. They were long, black flies. On September 5, the next day, another compact cloud of flies, occupying half an hour in passing, appeared again off Nova Scotia, at Guysboro', hosts falling into the water. The Brooklyn Eagle, September 7, said they came from the direction of the east. What is to be said of these visitations, clouds and swarms of long, black, exhausted and torpid flies, from August 18 to September 5, 1880? They are found in the north, appear over the ocean flying to seek refuge and nourishment. ... On 24th "a countless multitude" arrived in Kent and Surrey, and fires were built to burn millions of them. On the same day they reached London, pelting into the streets, rattling like "coloured hail " against windows, falling into gutters. They drifted as far north as Worcester. On the 25th another vast invasion appeared at Dover, coming as if from France. People had to open umbrellas to keep off the attentions of the plague. Another cloud rolled in from no place of origin ever determined. (Charles Fort in Lo!,pp. 241-2, citing The Times.)
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
119282
NOVAS & COMETS CAUSED RADIOACTIVITY & PERMAFROST, I GATHER
3rd post this week so far.
[WERE NOVAS THE SOURCE OF RADIOACTIVITY IN EARTH'S CRUST?]
The Recency of the Surface [Books] [de Grazia books]
_A few years ago radioactive decay processes were the only natural ones known. Perhaps all of the nuclear reactions previously described as artificial as well as many others involving energies quite outside the range of artificial transmutations actually occur probably at appreciable rates in the earth. Puppi and Dallaporta (Landsberg, 1955) showed that the average star (cosmic ray-promoted nuclear explosion) rate is about 2/cm^2/s or 10^19/s in the atmosphere alone. George [Landsberg, 1955] gave star count data which would suggest possibly about another 10^25 inside the earth. Moreover spontaneous uranium fission alone should produce 10^26 stars/year inside the lithosphere. Since cc particles emitted from radioactive elements have enough energy to penetrate the coulomb barrier in nuclei of atomic number Z up to at least 20, perhaps upwards of 10^-4 of these particles (geometrical cross-section about 0.02 barns) should produce secondary nuclear transmutations. If this is the case, natural decay processes should effect at least 10^29-10^30 secondary transmutations in the earth's crust each year. This would be enough to disjoint the radio clocks. Jean Perrin, as noted by Baranov [11], has gone farther than Cook to argue that radioactive decay is not spontaneous, but is caused by ultrahard radiation coming in from exoterrestrial sources. That is why "natural" radioactivity is concentrated within the crust of the Earth. We have stressed that exoterrestrial bombardments of the Earth by particles from nova explosions and other sources of hard radiation have been repeatedly experienced by the crustal rocks of the Earth. The present state of the Earth must be receiving a small fraction of its historical radiation.
[DID NOVAS OR COMETS FREEZE THE ARCTIC IN PERMAFROST?]
An Unexplained Arctic Catastrophe – Part II: Some Unanswered Questions [Journals] [SIS Review]
_From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 2005 (Sep 2005)
_Permafrost deposits ... stretch longitudinally from Murmansk [by northern Finland] to Alaska - a distance of around 4,500 miles - and latitudinally from at least the New Siberian Islands in the North to below the Soviet/Mongolian border in the South - a distance of approximately 2000 miles.
_The immense depths (4,000 feet or more in places) to which the permafrost descends uninterruptedly indicate a vast, but presently invisible, crustal depression (or series of neighbouring depressions) subjacent to this formation.
_Consistently heterogeneous, the permafrost deposits exhibit every sign of having been swept by water-action into the huge depression (or depressions) they now completely fill. This means that, in at least several places, they filled basins thousands of feet deep and almost certainly scores (if not hundreds) of miles long, again as part of one singular upheaval [8].
_Contingent upon the two preceding problems is the apparently contradictory occurrence at many inland sites in Siberia, and sometimes at great elevations above present sea-level, of various sub-fossilized shells and the frozen remnants of whales, porpoises, walruses, and seals in company with those of contemporary land mammals, and the massed debris of destroyed land vegetation.
_A very special set of circumstances must have brought together this gigantic accumulation of environmentally and faunistically discordant organic remains, and did so on a tremendous scale, indiscriminately and violently.
_A rolling about of Earth would certainly have generated rampant flooding of land areas on a monumental scale, the kind of flood needed a priori to have transported and deposited the chaotic permafrost phenomenon.
[This is one of the things Cardona's paper, The Road to Saturn, mentioned. Remember?]
_at the moment of its inception, the rapidity of the refrigeration did not proceed from the top permafrost layers downwards but came about from the bottom up. The bottom' here would be the surface/s of the original terrain upon which the permafrost formation as a whole accumulated. We have already noted that areas of this terrain very probably featured locally collapsed' portions of the lithosphere, and that, as previously remarked, the freezing process occurred at virtually the same time throughout the length and breadth of the entire permafrost region irrespective of geographical latitude' [31].
_A deep lying element able to instantaneously deep-freeze the lowest layers of the formation would have no difficulty in similarly refrigerating all subsequent levels as they were physically deposited. As the depositional process was swift, so too was refrigeration of the entire formation.
_[Animals etc] were instantaneously quick-frozen, as they were deposited among chaotically-dispersed water-sodden detritus of all kinds. The fact that all this material was flood-borne and thus sodden merely accelerated its freezing. Not improbably the most likely refrigerating agent was nitrogen, either in solid or liquid form.
_Immense atmospheres of nitrogen occur in compounds like ammonia, as well as in the planetary atmospheres of Jupiter and Saturn and, as hydrides of nitrogen, in the tails of comets.
DEEP DEPRESSIONS. The depressions discussed above were either impact craters or basins formed during the breakup of the supercontinent, Pangaea, IMO.
SUPERCOOLING NITROGEN. I've suggested before that the rapid freezing of the Arctic could have been due to a large comet or asteroid impact, that would have brought in very cold air from the upper atmosphere. But maybe ammonia from Saturn or Jupiter novas, or nitrogen hydrides from comets, like Venus, is even more likely. It seems that both are probable. Remember, the impacts would also have produced extremely strong winds, which would hasten freezing even more.
NOVAS & COMETS CAUSED RADIOACTIVITY & PERMAFROST, I GATHER
3rd post this week so far.
[WERE NOVAS THE SOURCE OF RADIOACTIVITY IN EARTH'S CRUST?]
The Recency of the Surface [Books] [de Grazia books]
_A few years ago radioactive decay processes were the only natural ones known. Perhaps all of the nuclear reactions previously described as artificial as well as many others involving energies quite outside the range of artificial transmutations actually occur probably at appreciable rates in the earth. Puppi and Dallaporta (Landsberg, 1955) showed that the average star (cosmic ray-promoted nuclear explosion) rate is about 2/cm^2/s or 10^19/s in the atmosphere alone. George [Landsberg, 1955] gave star count data which would suggest possibly about another 10^25 inside the earth. Moreover spontaneous uranium fission alone should produce 10^26 stars/year inside the lithosphere. Since cc particles emitted from radioactive elements have enough energy to penetrate the coulomb barrier in nuclei of atomic number Z up to at least 20, perhaps upwards of 10^-4 of these particles (geometrical cross-section about 0.02 barns) should produce secondary nuclear transmutations. If this is the case, natural decay processes should effect at least 10^29-10^30 secondary transmutations in the earth's crust each year. This would be enough to disjoint the radio clocks. Jean Perrin, as noted by Baranov [11], has gone farther than Cook to argue that radioactive decay is not spontaneous, but is caused by ultrahard radiation coming in from exoterrestrial sources. That is why "natural" radioactivity is concentrated within the crust of the Earth. We have stressed that exoterrestrial bombardments of the Earth by particles from nova explosions and other sources of hard radiation have been repeatedly experienced by the crustal rocks of the Earth. The present state of the Earth must be receiving a small fraction of its historical radiation.
[DID NOVAS OR COMETS FREEZE THE ARCTIC IN PERMAFROST?]
An Unexplained Arctic Catastrophe – Part II: Some Unanswered Questions [Journals] [SIS Review]
_From: SIS Chronology & Catastrophism Review 2005 (Sep 2005)
_Permafrost deposits ... stretch longitudinally from Murmansk [by northern Finland] to Alaska - a distance of around 4,500 miles - and latitudinally from at least the New Siberian Islands in the North to below the Soviet/Mongolian border in the South - a distance of approximately 2000 miles.
_The immense depths (4,000 feet or more in places) to which the permafrost descends uninterruptedly indicate a vast, but presently invisible, crustal depression (or series of neighbouring depressions) subjacent to this formation.
_Consistently heterogeneous, the permafrost deposits exhibit every sign of having been swept by water-action into the huge depression (or depressions) they now completely fill. This means that, in at least several places, they filled basins thousands of feet deep and almost certainly scores (if not hundreds) of miles long, again as part of one singular upheaval [8].
_Contingent upon the two preceding problems is the apparently contradictory occurrence at many inland sites in Siberia, and sometimes at great elevations above present sea-level, of various sub-fossilized shells and the frozen remnants of whales, porpoises, walruses, and seals in company with those of contemporary land mammals, and the massed debris of destroyed land vegetation.
_A very special set of circumstances must have brought together this gigantic accumulation of environmentally and faunistically discordant organic remains, and did so on a tremendous scale, indiscriminately and violently.
_A rolling about of Earth would certainly have generated rampant flooding of land areas on a monumental scale, the kind of flood needed a priori to have transported and deposited the chaotic permafrost phenomenon.
[This is one of the things Cardona's paper, The Road to Saturn, mentioned. Remember?]
_at the moment of its inception, the rapidity of the refrigeration did not proceed from the top permafrost layers downwards but came about from the bottom up. The bottom' here would be the surface/s of the original terrain upon which the permafrost formation as a whole accumulated. We have already noted that areas of this terrain very probably featured locally collapsed' portions of the lithosphere, and that, as previously remarked, the freezing process occurred at virtually the same time throughout the length and breadth of the entire permafrost region irrespective of geographical latitude' [31].
_A deep lying element able to instantaneously deep-freeze the lowest layers of the formation would have no difficulty in similarly refrigerating all subsequent levels as they were physically deposited. As the depositional process was swift, so too was refrigeration of the entire formation.
_[Animals etc] were instantaneously quick-frozen, as they were deposited among chaotically-dispersed water-sodden detritus of all kinds. The fact that all this material was flood-borne and thus sodden merely accelerated its freezing. Not improbably the most likely refrigerating agent was nitrogen, either in solid or liquid form.
_Immense atmospheres of nitrogen occur in compounds like ammonia, as well as in the planetary atmospheres of Jupiter and Saturn and, as hydrides of nitrogen, in the tails of comets.
DEEP DEPRESSIONS. The depressions discussed above were either impact craters or basins formed during the breakup of the supercontinent, Pangaea, IMO.
SUPERCOOLING NITROGEN. I've suggested before that the rapid freezing of the Arctic could have been due to a large comet or asteroid impact, that would have brought in very cold air from the upper atmosphere. But maybe ammonia from Saturn or Jupiter novas, or nitrogen hydrides from comets, like Venus, is even more likely. It seems that both are probable. Remember, the impacts would also have produced extremely strong winds, which would hasten freezing even more.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
119485
DID MARS CAUSE THE GREAT FLOOD?
My 4th post this week.
_The Saturn theorists have said that ancient myths suggest that Mars came close to Earth maybe more than once before the Saturn system broke up.
_The myths say that Mars was born from Venus and quickly grew into a giant (and then shrank and went back into Venus' womb again, I think).
_The polar column was possibly a bright stream of debris between Mars and the Earth and possibly extending to Venus and Saturn.
_Early in this thread I discussed John Baumgartner's paper on Noah's Flood, which found that the Flood was likely caused by tsunamis.
_The tsunamis were caused by a large body orbiting the Earth elliptically, so that its gravity raised tidal waves on Earth at perigee (closest approach).
_The waves were thought to have come about once a month, so the body could have been the Moon.
_However, some Saturn theorists have stated that the Moon did not orbit the Earth during the Golden Age.
_On the other hand, the Moon could have arrived when the Golden Age ended and caused the Flood then.
_But Mars is also a candidate, since myths suggest that Mars came close to the Earth.
_Velikovsky discussed a myth that Zeus/Jupiter, I think, cast a net (electrical filaments?) around Mars & the Moon.
_But Saturn theorists seem to say that was not the Moon, but Venus, possibly because the crescent was initially indicative of Saturn & maybe Venus, & only much later the Moon, thus confusing mythologists.
_Saturn theorists say that Mars & Venus became unstable late in the Golden Age and wandered some degrees away from the polar axis and/or moved back and forth between the Earth and Saturn.
_When they moved toward Earth, they appeared to grow in size, and when they moved toward Saturn they appeared to shrink in size.
_So Baumgartner's model supposes that a large body orbited the Earth elliptically for a period of a few months.
_And the Saturn model finds that Mars and possibly Venus came close to the Earth from a mostly north polar direction.
_Whether it was Mars or the Moon that came close to the Earth, the tidal waves at perigee apparently caused the Flood and deposited most of the sedimentary rock strata on Earth.
_The Younger Dryas Flood a few centuries later seems to have deposited the last megasequence of strata.
_If Mars caused the Great Flood, some of the debris in the polar column may have caused many of the impact craters on Earth that occurred during that first global Flood.
_As I showed yesterday above, nitrogen gases from Venus or other comets, or ammonia from Saturn or Jupiter flares, likely contributed a lot to the freezing of the Arctic, along with impact craters and the global Flood of the Younger Dryas event.
_Mars is the only body that I know of that myths apparently suggest grew to giant size.
_A native American myth referred to Mars as scarface, apparently because Mars was so close that Valles Marineris was visible, looking like a long scar.
_Does this look like a scarface? http://cronodon.com/images/Valles_Marineris.jpg
_Cardona said Saturn theorists had trouble distinguishing between the beginning and end of the Saturn system.
_Apparently, there were some catastrophic events at both times.
_So maybe Mars caused the Great Flood soon after the first appearance of the system.
_Then there was a Golden Age for about 500 years according to Mike Fischer of http://newgeology.us/
_Then there was the Pangaea breakup when a huge asteroid hit it.
_Then there was the Younger Dryas Flood and Arctic freezing caused by debris from the polar column and from Venus gases or Saturn flares etc.
DID MARS CAUSE THE GREAT FLOOD?
My 4th post this week.
_The Saturn theorists have said that ancient myths suggest that Mars came close to Earth maybe more than once before the Saturn system broke up.
_The myths say that Mars was born from Venus and quickly grew into a giant (and then shrank and went back into Venus' womb again, I think).
_The polar column was possibly a bright stream of debris between Mars and the Earth and possibly extending to Venus and Saturn.
_Early in this thread I discussed John Baumgartner's paper on Noah's Flood, which found that the Flood was likely caused by tsunamis.
_The tsunamis were caused by a large body orbiting the Earth elliptically, so that its gravity raised tidal waves on Earth at perigee (closest approach).
_The waves were thought to have come about once a month, so the body could have been the Moon.
_However, some Saturn theorists have stated that the Moon did not orbit the Earth during the Golden Age.
_On the other hand, the Moon could have arrived when the Golden Age ended and caused the Flood then.
_But Mars is also a candidate, since myths suggest that Mars came close to the Earth.
_Velikovsky discussed a myth that Zeus/Jupiter, I think, cast a net (electrical filaments?) around Mars & the Moon.
_But Saturn theorists seem to say that was not the Moon, but Venus, possibly because the crescent was initially indicative of Saturn & maybe Venus, & only much later the Moon, thus confusing mythologists.
_Saturn theorists say that Mars & Venus became unstable late in the Golden Age and wandered some degrees away from the polar axis and/or moved back and forth between the Earth and Saturn.
_When they moved toward Earth, they appeared to grow in size, and when they moved toward Saturn they appeared to shrink in size.
_So Baumgartner's model supposes that a large body orbited the Earth elliptically for a period of a few months.
_And the Saturn model finds that Mars and possibly Venus came close to the Earth from a mostly north polar direction.
_Whether it was Mars or the Moon that came close to the Earth, the tidal waves at perigee apparently caused the Flood and deposited most of the sedimentary rock strata on Earth.
_The Younger Dryas Flood a few centuries later seems to have deposited the last megasequence of strata.
_If Mars caused the Great Flood, some of the debris in the polar column may have caused many of the impact craters on Earth that occurred during that first global Flood.
_As I showed yesterday above, nitrogen gases from Venus or other comets, or ammonia from Saturn or Jupiter flares, likely contributed a lot to the freezing of the Arctic, along with impact craters and the global Flood of the Younger Dryas event.
_Mars is the only body that I know of that myths apparently suggest grew to giant size.
_A native American myth referred to Mars as scarface, apparently because Mars was so close that Valles Marineris was visible, looking like a long scar.
_Does this look like a scarface? http://cronodon.com/images/Valles_Marineris.jpg
_Cardona said Saturn theorists had trouble distinguishing between the beginning and end of the Saturn system.
_Apparently, there were some catastrophic events at both times.
_So maybe Mars caused the Great Flood soon after the first appearance of the system.
_Then there was a Golden Age for about 500 years according to Mike Fischer of http://newgeology.us/
_Then there was the Pangaea breakup when a huge asteroid hit it.
_Then there was the Younger Dryas Flood and Arctic freezing caused by debris from the polar column and from Venus gases or Saturn flares etc.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
120903
CREATIONIST ERROR: ONLY ONE CATACLYSM, THE FLOOD
I'd like to critique this apparent Creationist error, but I don't have enough time yet to say much. They don't acknowledge other cataclysms, with few exceptions, but there's good evidence that the Younger Dryas event involved plenty of impacts, as well as widespread Flooding. One of the articles I'd like to critique is "The extinction of the woolly mammoth — it was a quick freeze!" at https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17 ... _74-79.pdf
FROM MY POST OF Nov 25, 2021
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =585#p5992
[EVIDENCE THAT THE YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT WAS ABOUT 4,000 TO 5,000 YEARS AGO]
Giant Stonehenge Pits date to 4400 BP
What were the Giant Stonehenge Pits Used For? Animal (Aurochs) Traps?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhw66z5hXTs
FROM MY POST OF Dec 01, 2021
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 6036#p6010
[ICE AGE MEGAFLOODS WERE CAUSED BY YOUNGER DRYAS IMPACTS]
Two more late Ice Age megafloods discovered
https://creation.com/two-more-megafloods
Ice Age megafloods [include]
[1] ... the Lake Missoula flood [down the Columbia River in Washington],
[2] the Bonneville flood down the Snake River [in] Idaho and ... Washington,
[3] [a] south central Siberia ... flood ... down the Chuja and Katun Rivers,
[4] ... the eastern English Channel ... megaflood[],
[5] ... glacial Lake Agassiz ... flood[] ... south down the Mississippi River, ... east [down the] Saint Lawrence Seaway, ... [northeast] into Hudson Bay and ... northwest down the Mackenzie River....
[6] ... [and the] Lake Atna [flood down] the Cooper River in S. Alaska.
[YOUNGER DRYAS WAS BRIEF]
The CLIMATE Project
https://www.icr.org/research/climate/
Stephen Goodenow published an ICRGS master’s thesis in 2004 on the Younger Dryas.9 The Younger Dryas is an intense but short-period reversal in the warming trend following the Ice Age. The reversal is evident in most of the ice core records and resulted in major changes in climate in Europe and various other locations in the Northern Hemisphere. Goodenow analyzed various climate trends near the beginning and end of the event and found that it began and ended abruptly and lasted less than 40 years, possibly less than 4 years. Such an intense and short event was catastrophic, not associated with typical climate changes that occur over much longer periods of time. Goodenow hypothesized that the intense and brief cooling was probably due to the sudden release of a large quantity of meltwater from central Canada during deglaciation of the Canadian ice sheet. The cold water broke through ice dams and flowed catastrophically down the Mississippi River and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Cold, fresh water from the Mississippi River would have flowed through the Gulf of Mexico, around the tip of Florida, up the East Coast of the United States, met the water escaping the St. Lawrence Seaway, and traveled eastward across the North Atlantic. The cold, fresh water would have floated on the surface of the Atlantic Ocean, creating an extensive, cold region upwind of Europe. An unusually cold North Atlantic would have formed cold, dry content of the snow falling in Greenland. Such an event could have happened quickly because only the upper few meters of the ocean would have been affected.
[BETTER DATING OF ICE CORES]
The CLIMATE Project
https://www.icr.org/research/climate/
James Zavacky published a master’s thesis in 2006 on estimating age from ice layers in ice cores.11 He applied the non-uniformitarian ice accumulation model developed by Dr. Vardiman to the latest high-resolution GISP-2 core in Greenland in order to determine if the conventional interpretation that 250,000 annual layers is valid. He concluded that there was a shift in storm frequency evident in the ice core data at about 1,381 meters (~4,000 ft) below the current surface of the ice sheet. Relatively calm storm conditions above this level are consistent with conditions today that permit annual layers of a foot in thickness or more to accumulate and be observed. Below 4,000 feet, the layers are thought to be due to many individual storms each year that leave distinctive layers. Stormy conditions during the accumulation of ice at lower depths contain large amounts of dust and hoar frost layers that indicate a long period of time if interpreted incorrectly as annual layers. Consequently, the conventional view that ice sheets accumulated over 100,000 years or more is wrong. They likely developed over only a few thousand years.
CREATIONIST ERROR: ONLY ONE CATACLYSM, THE FLOOD
I'd like to critique this apparent Creationist error, but I don't have enough time yet to say much. They don't acknowledge other cataclysms, with few exceptions, but there's good evidence that the Younger Dryas event involved plenty of impacts, as well as widespread Flooding. One of the articles I'd like to critique is "The extinction of the woolly mammoth — it was a quick freeze!" at https://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j17 ... _74-79.pdf
FROM MY POST OF Nov 25, 2021
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... =585#p5992
[EVIDENCE THAT THE YOUNGER DRYAS EVENT WAS ABOUT 4,000 TO 5,000 YEARS AGO]
Giant Stonehenge Pits date to 4400 BP
What were the Giant Stonehenge Pits Used For? Animal (Aurochs) Traps?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhw66z5hXTs
FROM MY POST OF Dec 01, 2021
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/ph ... 6036#p6010
[ICE AGE MEGAFLOODS WERE CAUSED BY YOUNGER DRYAS IMPACTS]
Two more late Ice Age megafloods discovered
https://creation.com/two-more-megafloods
Ice Age megafloods [include]
[1] ... the Lake Missoula flood [down the Columbia River in Washington],
[2] the Bonneville flood down the Snake River [in] Idaho and ... Washington,
[3] [a] south central Siberia ... flood ... down the Chuja and Katun Rivers,
[4] ... the eastern English Channel ... megaflood[],
[5] ... glacial Lake Agassiz ... flood[] ... south down the Mississippi River, ... east [down the] Saint Lawrence Seaway, ... [northeast] into Hudson Bay and ... northwest down the Mackenzie River....
[6] ... [and the] Lake Atna [flood down] the Cooper River in S. Alaska.
[YOUNGER DRYAS WAS BRIEF]
The CLIMATE Project
https://www.icr.org/research/climate/
Stephen Goodenow published an ICRGS master’s thesis in 2004 on the Younger Dryas.9 The Younger Dryas is an intense but short-period reversal in the warming trend following the Ice Age. The reversal is evident in most of the ice core records and resulted in major changes in climate in Europe and various other locations in the Northern Hemisphere. Goodenow analyzed various climate trends near the beginning and end of the event and found that it began and ended abruptly and lasted less than 40 years, possibly less than 4 years. Such an intense and short event was catastrophic, not associated with typical climate changes that occur over much longer periods of time. Goodenow hypothesized that the intense and brief cooling was probably due to the sudden release of a large quantity of meltwater from central Canada during deglaciation of the Canadian ice sheet. The cold water broke through ice dams and flowed catastrophically down the Mississippi River and the St. Lawrence Seaway. Cold, fresh water from the Mississippi River would have flowed through the Gulf of Mexico, around the tip of Florida, up the East Coast of the United States, met the water escaping the St. Lawrence Seaway, and traveled eastward across the North Atlantic. The cold, fresh water would have floated on the surface of the Atlantic Ocean, creating an extensive, cold region upwind of Europe. An unusually cold North Atlantic would have formed cold, dry content of the snow falling in Greenland. Such an event could have happened quickly because only the upper few meters of the ocean would have been affected.
[BETTER DATING OF ICE CORES]
The CLIMATE Project
https://www.icr.org/research/climate/
James Zavacky published a master’s thesis in 2006 on estimating age from ice layers in ice cores.11 He applied the non-uniformitarian ice accumulation model developed by Dr. Vardiman to the latest high-resolution GISP-2 core in Greenland in order to determine if the conventional interpretation that 250,000 annual layers is valid. He concluded that there was a shift in storm frequency evident in the ice core data at about 1,381 meters (~4,000 ft) below the current surface of the ice sheet. Relatively calm storm conditions above this level are consistent with conditions today that permit annual layers of a foot in thickness or more to accumulate and be observed. Below 4,000 feet, the layers are thought to be due to many individual storms each year that leave distinctive layers. Stormy conditions during the accumulation of ice at lower depths contain large amounts of dust and hoar frost layers that indicate a long period of time if interpreted incorrectly as annual layers. Consequently, the conventional view that ice sheets accumulated over 100,000 years or more is wrong. They likely developed over only a few thousand years.
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
121923
TITANS
This is from a search at Catastrophism.com. I noted here lately that Saturn was formerly close enough to the Earth to appear to be larger than the Moon appears now. That's why the Saturn planets were called giants, or Titans. Thus, this search.
3. Changing Sea Levels [Journals] [Aeon]
[EARTH TOPPLED]
... the dominant body of the equatorial heavens above the elevated region of the "Orphic Egg." [12] After periodic visits by Jupiter, Saturn was finally deposed. This region now rests beneath our northern sky, it having shifted through 90-deg as Earth toppled. This sequence of events is possibly that told in the "Wars of the ____Titans." In the process, mass was lost from Earth's present northern hemisphere and our globe was recast in a pear-shaped form. With this change in the levels of the Earth's crust, a transfer of the oceans from about the southern continent towards the north would follow. Early sea levels would have been quite low and much less saline ...
7. Astral Kingship [Journals] [Aeon]
[HELIOS = SATURN]
... the city of Heliopolis, more properly called On, would have been the City of Saturn. Let us consider the following: The name Heliopolis derives from Helios, the supposed Greek personification of the Sun. His cult was very ancient and practiced throughout Greece. It was related that Helios was drowned in the ocean by his uncles, the ____Titans, and then raised to the sky, where he became the luminous sun. (53) Interestingly, this tale bears an amazing resemblance to that of Osiris-Saturn who was nailed shut in a specially made coffer and drowned in the Nile waters by his brother Set. (54) After being rejuvenated by his sister-wife Isis, Osiris reigned ...
8. The Electric Saturnian System [Journals] [Aeon]
[SATURN VS. JUPITER]
... effect that has no explanation in a Newtonian Solar System.) Every time proto-Saturn crossed the ecliptic it would transfer charge more rapidly in the denser plasma there. That would tend to pull its orbit into the ecliptic plane. In this scenario, Jupiter is proto-Saturn's nemesis. As proto-Saturn's system spiraled in toward the Sun, a clash of the ____Titans was almost inevitable. When it happened, Jupiter would have appeared to loom large in the sky in a matter of days, or even hours. Given that we were trailing behind our primordial (ex)-star, it could be that Jupiter appeared suddenly from behind proto-Saturn, just as Talbott has been suggesting. It would certainly ...
12. RECONSTRUCTING THE SATURN MYTH [Journals] [Aeon]
[CELESTIAL UPHEAVAL]
... disturbance, it is the story of celestial upheaval. The gods themselves battle in the sky, wreaking havoc on the earth and rearranging the heavens. Their weapons include thunderbolts and stone, flaming "arrows," fire-breathing dragons, celestial wind and flood. The tale is most familiar to us, perhaps, as the famous wars of the ____Titans, the catastrophic aftermath of the Golden Age of Kronos, when "wide heaven was shaken and groaned, and high Olympos reeled from its foundation under the charge of the undying gods. So, then, they launched their grievous shafts upon one another, and the cry of both armies as they shouted reached to starry heaven; and they met ...
17. CLASHING MAGNETIC FIELDS [Journals] [Aeon]
[IONS FORMED COILS ON VENUS & MARS]
... kinds of voices", bellowings, yelpings and hissings. Earth, sea and sky resound with the din of battle. There is thunder, lightning, fire and burning hurricane; the whole Earth seethes, and the sky and sea likewise. Great waves rage along the shore and there is endless quaking, so that even Hades and the ____Titans under Tartarus are reduced to trembling.(18) Elsewhere in Greek literature, including Homer's Iliad, Ares, like Medusa, is portrayed with coils like snakes. We propose that these were ions and electrons in normal vortex whirlpool motion seen by terrestrial observers. If so, the coiled snake symbol of modern medicine is another relic of ...
Those results are interesting, but not very relevant to my main objective, viz. to understand the sequence of events in the evolution and departure of the Saturn system and how they affected people & the biosphere & geology on Earth and when. My other recent searches listed at http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/ have been a bit more productive; e.g. the searches on DEPARTURE, MOUNTAIN, BC, DEPARTURE + PYRAMID TEXTS, ENHEDUANNA, PREDYNASTIC, & SATURN MYTH SEQUENCE. Next I may do this search on MOUNTAIN BUILDING at https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1 (and maybe one on MOUNTAIN UPLIFT) because mountain ranges likely formed during some of the recent cataclysms ca. 4500 years ago. I'll have to see if I've already exhausted that supply from my previous search on MOUNTAIN.
PS, HAPPY CHRISTMAS, ETC!
TITANS
This is from a search at Catastrophism.com. I noted here lately that Saturn was formerly close enough to the Earth to appear to be larger than the Moon appears now. That's why the Saturn planets were called giants, or Titans. Thus, this search.
3. Changing Sea Levels [Journals] [Aeon]
[EARTH TOPPLED]
... the dominant body of the equatorial heavens above the elevated region of the "Orphic Egg." [12] After periodic visits by Jupiter, Saturn was finally deposed. This region now rests beneath our northern sky, it having shifted through 90-deg as Earth toppled. This sequence of events is possibly that told in the "Wars of the ____Titans." In the process, mass was lost from Earth's present northern hemisphere and our globe was recast in a pear-shaped form. With this change in the levels of the Earth's crust, a transfer of the oceans from about the southern continent towards the north would follow. Early sea levels would have been quite low and much less saline ...
7. Astral Kingship [Journals] [Aeon]
[HELIOS = SATURN]
... the city of Heliopolis, more properly called On, would have been the City of Saturn. Let us consider the following: The name Heliopolis derives from Helios, the supposed Greek personification of the Sun. His cult was very ancient and practiced throughout Greece. It was related that Helios was drowned in the ocean by his uncles, the ____Titans, and then raised to the sky, where he became the luminous sun. (53) Interestingly, this tale bears an amazing resemblance to that of Osiris-Saturn who was nailed shut in a specially made coffer and drowned in the Nile waters by his brother Set. (54) After being rejuvenated by his sister-wife Isis, Osiris reigned ...
8. The Electric Saturnian System [Journals] [Aeon]
[SATURN VS. JUPITER]
... effect that has no explanation in a Newtonian Solar System.) Every time proto-Saturn crossed the ecliptic it would transfer charge more rapidly in the denser plasma there. That would tend to pull its orbit into the ecliptic plane. In this scenario, Jupiter is proto-Saturn's nemesis. As proto-Saturn's system spiraled in toward the Sun, a clash of the ____Titans was almost inevitable. When it happened, Jupiter would have appeared to loom large in the sky in a matter of days, or even hours. Given that we were trailing behind our primordial (ex)-star, it could be that Jupiter appeared suddenly from behind proto-Saturn, just as Talbott has been suggesting. It would certainly ...
12. RECONSTRUCTING THE SATURN MYTH [Journals] [Aeon]
[CELESTIAL UPHEAVAL]
... disturbance, it is the story of celestial upheaval. The gods themselves battle in the sky, wreaking havoc on the earth and rearranging the heavens. Their weapons include thunderbolts and stone, flaming "arrows," fire-breathing dragons, celestial wind and flood. The tale is most familiar to us, perhaps, as the famous wars of the ____Titans, the catastrophic aftermath of the Golden Age of Kronos, when "wide heaven was shaken and groaned, and high Olympos reeled from its foundation under the charge of the undying gods. So, then, they launched their grievous shafts upon one another, and the cry of both armies as they shouted reached to starry heaven; and they met ...
17. CLASHING MAGNETIC FIELDS [Journals] [Aeon]
[IONS FORMED COILS ON VENUS & MARS]
... kinds of voices", bellowings, yelpings and hissings. Earth, sea and sky resound with the din of battle. There is thunder, lightning, fire and burning hurricane; the whole Earth seethes, and the sky and sea likewise. Great waves rage along the shore and there is endless quaking, so that even Hades and the ____Titans under Tartarus are reduced to trembling.(18) Elsewhere in Greek literature, including Homer's Iliad, Ares, like Medusa, is portrayed with coils like snakes. We propose that these were ions and electrons in normal vortex whirlpool motion seen by terrestrial observers. If so, the coiled snake symbol of modern medicine is another relic of ...
Those results are interesting, but not very relevant to my main objective, viz. to understand the sequence of events in the evolution and departure of the Saturn system and how they affected people & the biosphere & geology on Earth and when. My other recent searches listed at http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/ have been a bit more productive; e.g. the searches on DEPARTURE, MOUNTAIN, BC, DEPARTURE + PYRAMID TEXTS, ENHEDUANNA, PREDYNASTIC, & SATURN MYTH SEQUENCE. Next I may do this search on MOUNTAIN BUILDING at https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1 (and maybe one on MOUNTAIN UPLIFT) because mountain ranges likely formed during some of the recent cataclysms ca. 4500 years ago. I'll have to see if I've already exhausted that supply from my previous search on MOUNTAIN.
PS, HAPPY CHRISTMAS, ETC!
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
122177
OROGENY, I.E. MOUNTAIN BUILDING
Search from Catastrophism.com, posted at http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=376
Note: These articles don't seem likely to help much to determine when the cataclysms occurred, but they still have interesting info.
[MAGNETICALLY REVERSED VASE & TIAHUANACO]
68. Heretics, Dogmatists and Science's Reception of New Ideas (Part 4) [Journals] [Kronos]
... of coincidence. Next, Sagan's distortion of the story of manna was corrected, followed by the correction of five of Sagan's misrepresentations: the plague of scarabs, earthquake proof Hebrew dwellings, that all Hebrews crossed the Red Sea safely, grazing collisions, and collective amnesia explaining missing concordances. Sagan's comments about the extreme antiquity of geomagnetic reversals and ____mountain building____ were countered with the example of 8th century B.C . Etruscan vases possessing reversed polarity and the conditions attending the present height of Tiahuanaco in the Andes. Next to be rebutted were Sagan's remarks about Jupiter's fissioning, the odds against Worlds in Collision, and the stopping and restarting of Earth's rotation. "The scientific basis for ...
[EARTH'S FIELD DIDN'T CAUSE MAGNETIC REVERSALS?]
43. Magnetic Poles Reversed. Ch.9 Axis Shifted (Earth In Upheaval) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Earth in Upheaval]
... : lava flowed and igneous rock intruded in the form of dykes or otherwise; the heated rocks acquired a reversed magnetic orientation; the intensity of their magnetization is stronger than the earth's own field could possibly produce. In the section "A Working Hypothesis," it was asserted that the formation of the ice cover, pluvial phenomena, and ________mountain building____ could be explained if the earth's axis was shifted, and it was assumed that the axis was shifted by an extraneous magnetic field. Now, the circumstance that rocks the world over show reversed magnetic orientation and an intensity of magnetization which the earth's magnetic field could not have induced, proves that our assumption was not unfounded. In ...
[MOUNTAINS FORMED RECENTLY]
6. Sagan's fourth problem: Terrestrial Geology And Lunar Craters (Carl Sagan & Immanuel Velikovsky) [Books]
... N.D . Watkins in Nature, Vol. 227 (1970) pp. 930934 state that, "Geomagnetic field reversals occurred more than twenty times during the past 4 M.Y . (million years) and probably more than one hundred times during the Tertiary." Apparently Sagan's million year clock is in need of repair. Mountain building____ Sagan states, "Velikovsky's contention that ________mountain building____ occurred a few thousand years ago is belied by all the geological evidence which puts those times at tens of millions of years earlier." 17 With respect to how long ago the major mountain ranges of the Earth rose, Sagan claims they rose millions of years ago, not during ...
[HOLOCENE OROGENY]
62. Crustal Distortion in the Holocene [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
... ) Home | Issue Contents Crustal Distortion in the Holocene Phillip Clapham The talk at the 2004 AGM by the geologist Han Kloosterman [1 ] pinpointed a catastrophe at the boundary of the Pleistocene and the Holocene periods. This boundary is a kind of shut-off as it marks a phase of mass extinction in conjunction with vast geological changes, such as ________mountain building____ episodes, volcanism and marine transgressions. Kloosterman associated it with a burnt charcoal layer – delineating vast landscape fires. It has been suggested by various authors (2 ) that this catastrophic scenario encompassed a shift in the geographical location of the North Pole – from somewhere in the Hudson Bay area to where it is now. Subsequent Holocene ...
[RECENT OROGENY & CATACLYSMS]
70. Introduction to (Stargazers and Gravediggers) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Stargazers]
... recently involved in planetary near collisions. That is to say, the astronomers with whom so much of Velikovsky's account is concerned have taken a step backward and left the brunt of the contest to the geologists, who are charged with the time scale of the powerful forces which they know all too well have shaped the surface of our planet. Mountain building____ was recent; changes in sea level and sedimentation on the seabed floor were recent; phenomena we attribute to the end of the last ice age, like the creation of Niagara Falls, were recent. It will be interesting to see how many years pass before the geologists, too, will be willing to say: Yes, ...
[CATASTROPHIC GRADUALIST OROGENY]
21. The Establishment of Gradualism [Books]
... least concerning the most recent catastrophe, Cuvier drew attention to the discovery of unputrified carcasses of large extinct mammals in the northern ice. Later, Cuvier's pupil, Jean Baptiste Léonce Élie de Beaumont (1798-1874), argued that even if the Earth was cooling slowly and gradually as Buffon had proposed, and that the reduction in volume led to ________mountain building____, then this latter process was still likely to occur in an episodic and catastrophic fashion, with upheavals of submerged land creating gigantic and destructive waves. Hallam, in Great Geological Controversies, stated unequivocally that Cuvier and Brongniart had used `actualistic methods' in their work, and Albritton wrote in Catastrophic Episodes in Earth History, ` ...
[MAYA RECORD]
35. A Maya Record of Two Thousand Years? [Journals] [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
... , 177) and Kuenen (1950,538) arrive at this approximate date for a geologically rapid drop in sea level of 16 to 20 feet, but it is not implied that this drop was rapid in terms of human time scale. If the water did not disappear in the formation of glacial ice caps it receded because of massive ________mountain building____ on land, or both. In any case, rapid changes of this kind in the earth's crust would, over a period of time, cause a succession of volcanic explosions, sharp climatic changes, and violent earthquakes, accompanied by tsunami and coastal floods, if the drop took place in sudden steps. The archaeological and historical ...
[LARGE METEORITES CAUSED OROGENY ETC]
46. Bookshelf [Journals] [SIS Review]
... 1964) Since the discovery of the Barringer Crater in Arizona and the reassessment of the origin of similar craters of enormous size, the theory of meteoritic origin has grown in strength. Gallant shows that the impact of meteorites of planetary dimensions must have caused a shift in the earth's polar axis, changes in the spin rate and crustal slips, ________mountain building____, climatic change and the destruction of species. Impacts must have released large quantities of lethal radiation which would alter the course of evolution. The author, who is a mathematician but has done field work in geology and archaeology, offers calculations of the energy requirements needed to produce the observed effects. The book's foreword is by Professor ...
[METEORIC IMPACT EFFECTS]
48. The slip of the earth's crust under meteoritic impact [Books]
... that needed for the average force of blow to built up, exactly as a nail, submitted to such a force, penetrates into wood in practically the same time interval as that during which the force acts. This shows that the Earth's crust may be submitted, during a short time, to forces of very considerable value producing folding and ________mountain building____. The force of blow will be still greater if it acts on a more limited portion of the crust. (b ) In No. 6, it is considered that the momentum transmitted to the lithosphere on impact will give rise to a smaller stress acting during a longer time, exactly as a floating object, submitted to ...
[COSMIC SERPENT, IMPACTS, OROGENY, RAPID CONTINENTAL DRIFT]
49. Nemesis for Evolutionary Gradualism? [Books]
... years that tectonic theories are incomplete without an extraterrestrial dimension [32,105,234]. In The Cosmic Serpent they considered the physics of the Earth's tectonic system, and the likely effect of a large impact, concluding: "The picture then is one of episodes of rapid continental drift, with all the associated worldwide sea-floor spreading, ________mountain building____, vulcanism and so on, immediately after an impact, followed by a gradual decline of activity as the disturbed Earth settles into a new pattern of movement with more gradual splitting or colliding of continents. If these ideas are correct, large impacts will thus set in motion a complex chain of interacting phenomena - sea-level changes, climatic ...
[ANTARCTIC FOSSILS SHOW RAPID OROGENY]
50. Monitor [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
... ." The discoveries consist of marine plants and fossilised wood with its roots - found at altitudes of 1800 m., and a rock containing a fossilised dolphin, dating from 2-5 Myrs ago. Not only do the findings indicate dramatic changes in climate, the marine flora and fauna found at an altitude of 1800 m. shows remarkably rapid ________mountain building____ to have taken place, and this is a problem to explain, for Antarctica does not have a seismic history which might account for such ________mountain building____. Saturn's Recent Rings source: NEW SCIENTIST 3.7 .86, p.29 There is a new challenge to the orthodoxly held view that planetary rings are as old as ...
[SOME MOUNTAINS FORMED RECENTLY]
11. Volcanoes, Earthquakes, Comets. Ch.9 Axis Shifted (Earth In Upheaval) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Earth in Upheaval]
... der Erde), are certainly but faint reminiscences of those telluric movements to which the structure of almost every mountain range bears witness. Numerous examples of great mountain chains suggest by their structure . . . episodal disturbances of such indescribable and overpowering violence, that the imagination refuses to follow the understanding. . . ." 5 Suess thought that ________mountain building____ came to an end before the advent of man; but today we know that it lasted well into Recent time, and consequently man must have witnessed the great earthquakes that made the globe shudder. When the Andes rose in South America, according to the description of R. T. Chamberlin, "Hundreds, if not thousands ...
[RAPID MOUNTAIN BUILDING VS. GLACIAL TRANSPORT]
13. Discussion Comments From the Floor [Journals] [Aeon]
... model of Antarctic geology. The first evidence of climatic complexity came from microscopic fossils collected in 1965 at elevations 2100 to 2700 meters above sea level in the mountains of Antarctica.(2 ) Analysis of these fossils at Ohio State University surprisingly revealed the remains of marine creatures that lived 2 to 70 million years ago. To rule out rapid ________mountain building____ or a drastic rise in sea level, one has to resort to ice transport, but glacial sediment on the floors of nearby seas shows no evidence that Antarctica was free of ice during the recent part of the period represented by the microscopic fossils. For ice to carry marine fossils high up the mountains, a prior ice-free period ...
[CENOZOIC OROGENY CAUSED ICE SHEETS]
18. Uniformitarian Or Catastrophist? Ice Age Theory [Journals] [Velikovskian]
... , (1977), pp. 390-396] cannot be invoked to initiate Quaternary glaciation, because the continents have been supposedly in nearly their current configuration since well before the start of the ice age. Then why didn't the ice ages begin much sooner in the geological time scale? An obvious solution to the problem has been to propose that ________mountain building____ in the late Cenozoic initiated ice caps that coalesced to form large ice sheets. Further climatic cooling would cause lower plateau areas to become ice covered [R . F. Flint, Glacialand Quaternary Geology, (New York, 1971), pp. 808-809] The problem with this theory is that many ____mountainous areas are not now ...
[RECENT OROGENY]
20. Collapsing Schemes. Ch.13 Collapsing Schemes (Earth In Upheaval) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Earth in Upheaval]
... epochs were of very different length than has been assumed on the ground of the theory of uniformity. The very concept of a 60 000 000-year-long Tertiary when mountains were uplifted, followed by 1000 000 years of Ice Age, a time of great climatic changes, followed by 30 000 years of the tranquillity of Recent time, with quietude in ________mountain building____ and stability in climate, is basically wrong. The ________mountain building____ went on during the Ice Age, coinciding with climatic catastrophes, and both endured into Recent time, only a few thousand years ago. Notes. 1. A. L. Kroeber in the volume dedicated to A. M. Tozzer, The Maya and Their ...
[CATASTROPHIC OROGENY]
25. Earth has Flipped Over in Space Many Times [Journals] [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
... The Earth, spinning like a top, would tilt over until it was upside down. "I suggest that the actual reversal takes place in a matter of days- even as little as one day." Studies from many widely separated fields of science are linked together by the concept of polar shifts, Warlow says. Ice ages, ________mountain building____, periods of global volcanic activity, animal extinctions, sudden rise and fall of land masses, and magnetic field reversals are given a unified explanation. John White Rejected by a newspaper, this article recapitulates many catastrophic themes. Mr. White is writing a book, Pole Shift.- Ed.
[TIDAL PULL ON MOHO LAVA]
15. Solar System Studies (Part 2) [Journals] [Aeon]
... do not cross the Mojo to match up with those of lower strata. The Mojo deserves much more attention. It should be mentioned that Velikovsky referred to the possibility that electrical currents, resulting from close encounters between Earth and other planets, could produce subterranean heating of the very type which could melt vast stretches of the Mojo and lead to ________mountain building____ on Earth at low energy, provided there was a gravitational pull from above. With such a pull from above, it is readily apparent that Mojo lava could be extruded out from under subsiding land destined to become new sea bottoms, while lifting former lowlands or even sea bottoms to become the new highlands of very recent millennia. ...
[WATER EXPANSION FORMED MOUNTAINS]
8. Velikovsky's Water Mountain((s) [Journals] [SIS Internet Digest]
... was electrically or gravitationally produced. The dust tail may even be the biblical pillar of cloud by day and fire by night. The charge transfer mechanism, from Venus to Earth, could have been the comet's ion tail from which the Earth had very recently emerged..The following drawing illustrates the elements of the discussion. This electrostatically induced ________mountain building____ effect of water can be easily and inexpensively simulated. (Water molecules are electrical dipoles and you can do some wild stuff with them.) The drawing top-right shows how to do the experiment and the written material below is for clarification. Its best to try this under low humidity conditions (Winter time is generally good.) ...
[TWO GRAVITY THEORY]
3. Catastrophic Theory of Mountain Uplifts (A Crustal Deformation Theory) [Journals] [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
... the Earth's crust 20 percent of the Earth's mass is north of the 30th latitude north "slice," and 80 percent of the Earth's magma mass is south of the 30th latitude north. The convex versus concave ranges are respectively proportional to the position of the uplift between spin axis poles. This is significant only to a two-gravity theory of ________mountain building____. Such is due not to chance but to distribution of the Earth's subcrustal mass and upwelling magma. These patterns of convex and concave mountain ranges recur in North America, in South America, in Europe, in the mid-Pacific drowned ranges, in Indonesia, in Southern Asia, in Melanesia, and in Antarctica. Taking a global ...
[PARALLEL MOUNTAIN RANGES]
7. The Key to Mountain Ranges Part 3 Ch.VI (The Mysterious Comet) [Books]
... system of the north of England. He said of these that the corresponding directions only differ to a few degrees and that they have followed one another in the same order, leading to the supposition that there has been a kind of periodical recurrence of the same, or nearly the same, directions of these elevations. These parallel directions of ________mountain building____ are worldwide. Taking the Pyrenees as a basis of one of these systems, the direction being WNW to ESE as de Beaumont puts it, but from ESE to WNW as is really correct, we can trace the following like ranges, namely, the Ghauts of Malabar, and certain chains in Egypt, Syria, and Northern ...
[HISTORY OF OROGENY THEORIES]
14. Sinking and Rising Lands [Books] [de Grazia books]
... did Darwin's disciple, Thomas Huxley, and Darwin probably agreed with him. No injustice is done to Darwin by regarding his work as a great model of natural history, or "simply a theory" as some critics like to say. He had many doubts and made many "anomalous" observations about vast sudden catastrophes of species, of ________mountain building____, and, when he experienced a now-forgotten earthquake off the coast of Peru, he was appalled by the high energy displayed, noting in his Journals that the surface of the stricken island was changed more in a day than in a century of uniformitarian processes. Lesser known scientists developed more elaborate theories of the sinking of Pacific lands ...
[EARTHQUAKES TAPER OFF AFTER OROGENY]
60. Earthquakes in the Early Irish Tradition [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
... the basis of the material offered in the foregoing pages, the assumption is made here that earthquakes result from torsion of the crust following a change in the position of the equator and the displacement of matter inside the globe caused by the direct attraction of a cosmic body when in close contact. Pull, torsion, and displacement were responsible for ________mountain building____ too. "If this conception of the causes of earthquakes is correct, then there must have been fewer and fewer earthquakes during the course of time since the last cosmic catastrophe. The regions of the Apennine Peninsula, the eastern Mediterranean, and Mesopotamia, for which we have reliable records, can be compared in this respect with ...
[FORMER MOONS BUILT MOUNTAINS]
9. Evidences of Earlier Satellites (Life History of Our Earth) [Books]
... the Permian period. How coal and salt deposits came into being has already been discussed at another place. When the Carboniferous satellite first started building____ up stratified layers at the end of its pre-stationary period, calciferous sandstones and limestone shales, and later the great limestone beds and black shales (Culm), were laid down. In its chief ________mountain building____ period the satellite laid up the great systems of sandstone shales which contain the most important coal seams. The peculiarity that the older Carboniferous rocks cover a smaller area than the younger ones is due to the fact that the former were built up by the smaller zenithal tide hill, and the latter by the bigger nadiral one. After ...
[CAUSED BY HUGE ICE CAPS]
5. Scientific Prehistory [Books]
... ,000 years rather than 4, 000 million years); 2. the split up of the original supercontinent, Pangaea, was caused by the stresses due to build up of huge ice caps at its poles and this occurred (ending the ice age) around 10, 000 years ago; 3. ice cap forces were responsible for ________mountain building____; 4. coal, oil and fossils were formed by sudden deep burial of plants and animals in the resulting upheavals; 5. the re-adjustments required to restore horizontal and vertical isostacy are evident as continental drift; 6. the conventional geological and fossil "succession" reflect sequences of burial, rather than time; and 7. ...
OROGENY, I.E. MOUNTAIN BUILDING
Search from Catastrophism.com, posted at http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=376
Note: These articles don't seem likely to help much to determine when the cataclysms occurred, but they still have interesting info.
[MAGNETICALLY REVERSED VASE & TIAHUANACO]
68. Heretics, Dogmatists and Science's Reception of New Ideas (Part 4) [Journals] [Kronos]
... of coincidence. Next, Sagan's distortion of the story of manna was corrected, followed by the correction of five of Sagan's misrepresentations: the plague of scarabs, earthquake proof Hebrew dwellings, that all Hebrews crossed the Red Sea safely, grazing collisions, and collective amnesia explaining missing concordances. Sagan's comments about the extreme antiquity of geomagnetic reversals and ____mountain building____ were countered with the example of 8th century B.C . Etruscan vases possessing reversed polarity and the conditions attending the present height of Tiahuanaco in the Andes. Next to be rebutted were Sagan's remarks about Jupiter's fissioning, the odds against Worlds in Collision, and the stopping and restarting of Earth's rotation. "The scientific basis for ...
[EARTH'S FIELD DIDN'T CAUSE MAGNETIC REVERSALS?]
43. Magnetic Poles Reversed. Ch.9 Axis Shifted (Earth In Upheaval) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Earth in Upheaval]
... : lava flowed and igneous rock intruded in the form of dykes or otherwise; the heated rocks acquired a reversed magnetic orientation; the intensity of their magnetization is stronger than the earth's own field could possibly produce. In the section "A Working Hypothesis," it was asserted that the formation of the ice cover, pluvial phenomena, and ________mountain building____ could be explained if the earth's axis was shifted, and it was assumed that the axis was shifted by an extraneous magnetic field. Now, the circumstance that rocks the world over show reversed magnetic orientation and an intensity of magnetization which the earth's magnetic field could not have induced, proves that our assumption was not unfounded. In ...
[MOUNTAINS FORMED RECENTLY]
6. Sagan's fourth problem: Terrestrial Geology And Lunar Craters (Carl Sagan & Immanuel Velikovsky) [Books]
... N.D . Watkins in Nature, Vol. 227 (1970) pp. 930934 state that, "Geomagnetic field reversals occurred more than twenty times during the past 4 M.Y . (million years) and probably more than one hundred times during the Tertiary." Apparently Sagan's million year clock is in need of repair. Mountain building____ Sagan states, "Velikovsky's contention that ________mountain building____ occurred a few thousand years ago is belied by all the geological evidence which puts those times at tens of millions of years earlier." 17 With respect to how long ago the major mountain ranges of the Earth rose, Sagan claims they rose millions of years ago, not during ...
[HOLOCENE OROGENY]
62. Crustal Distortion in the Holocene [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
... ) Home | Issue Contents Crustal Distortion in the Holocene Phillip Clapham The talk at the 2004 AGM by the geologist Han Kloosterman [1 ] pinpointed a catastrophe at the boundary of the Pleistocene and the Holocene periods. This boundary is a kind of shut-off as it marks a phase of mass extinction in conjunction with vast geological changes, such as ________mountain building____ episodes, volcanism and marine transgressions. Kloosterman associated it with a burnt charcoal layer – delineating vast landscape fires. It has been suggested by various authors (2 ) that this catastrophic scenario encompassed a shift in the geographical location of the North Pole – from somewhere in the Hudson Bay area to where it is now. Subsequent Holocene ...
[RECENT OROGENY & CATACLYSMS]
70. Introduction to (Stargazers and Gravediggers) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Stargazers]
... recently involved in planetary near collisions. That is to say, the astronomers with whom so much of Velikovsky's account is concerned have taken a step backward and left the brunt of the contest to the geologists, who are charged with the time scale of the powerful forces which they know all too well have shaped the surface of our planet. Mountain building____ was recent; changes in sea level and sedimentation on the seabed floor were recent; phenomena we attribute to the end of the last ice age, like the creation of Niagara Falls, were recent. It will be interesting to see how many years pass before the geologists, too, will be willing to say: Yes, ...
[CATASTROPHIC GRADUALIST OROGENY]
21. The Establishment of Gradualism [Books]
... least concerning the most recent catastrophe, Cuvier drew attention to the discovery of unputrified carcasses of large extinct mammals in the northern ice. Later, Cuvier's pupil, Jean Baptiste Léonce Élie de Beaumont (1798-1874), argued that even if the Earth was cooling slowly and gradually as Buffon had proposed, and that the reduction in volume led to ________mountain building____, then this latter process was still likely to occur in an episodic and catastrophic fashion, with upheavals of submerged land creating gigantic and destructive waves. Hallam, in Great Geological Controversies, stated unequivocally that Cuvier and Brongniart had used `actualistic methods' in their work, and Albritton wrote in Catastrophic Episodes in Earth History, ` ...
[MAYA RECORD]
35. A Maya Record of Two Thousand Years? [Journals] [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
... , 177) and Kuenen (1950,538) arrive at this approximate date for a geologically rapid drop in sea level of 16 to 20 feet, but it is not implied that this drop was rapid in terms of human time scale. If the water did not disappear in the formation of glacial ice caps it receded because of massive ________mountain building____ on land, or both. In any case, rapid changes of this kind in the earth's crust would, over a period of time, cause a succession of volcanic explosions, sharp climatic changes, and violent earthquakes, accompanied by tsunami and coastal floods, if the drop took place in sudden steps. The archaeological and historical ...
[LARGE METEORITES CAUSED OROGENY ETC]
46. Bookshelf [Journals] [SIS Review]
... 1964) Since the discovery of the Barringer Crater in Arizona and the reassessment of the origin of similar craters of enormous size, the theory of meteoritic origin has grown in strength. Gallant shows that the impact of meteorites of planetary dimensions must have caused a shift in the earth's polar axis, changes in the spin rate and crustal slips, ________mountain building____, climatic change and the destruction of species. Impacts must have released large quantities of lethal radiation which would alter the course of evolution. The author, who is a mathematician but has done field work in geology and archaeology, offers calculations of the energy requirements needed to produce the observed effects. The book's foreword is by Professor ...
[METEORIC IMPACT EFFECTS]
48. The slip of the earth's crust under meteoritic impact [Books]
... that needed for the average force of blow to built up, exactly as a nail, submitted to such a force, penetrates into wood in practically the same time interval as that during which the force acts. This shows that the Earth's crust may be submitted, during a short time, to forces of very considerable value producing folding and ________mountain building____. The force of blow will be still greater if it acts on a more limited portion of the crust. (b ) In No. 6, it is considered that the momentum transmitted to the lithosphere on impact will give rise to a smaller stress acting during a longer time, exactly as a floating object, submitted to ...
[COSMIC SERPENT, IMPACTS, OROGENY, RAPID CONTINENTAL DRIFT]
49. Nemesis for Evolutionary Gradualism? [Books]
... years that tectonic theories are incomplete without an extraterrestrial dimension [32,105,234]. In The Cosmic Serpent they considered the physics of the Earth's tectonic system, and the likely effect of a large impact, concluding: "The picture then is one of episodes of rapid continental drift, with all the associated worldwide sea-floor spreading, ________mountain building____, vulcanism and so on, immediately after an impact, followed by a gradual decline of activity as the disturbed Earth settles into a new pattern of movement with more gradual splitting or colliding of continents. If these ideas are correct, large impacts will thus set in motion a complex chain of interacting phenomena - sea-level changes, climatic ...
[ANTARCTIC FOSSILS SHOW RAPID OROGENY]
50. Monitor [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
... ." The discoveries consist of marine plants and fossilised wood with its roots - found at altitudes of 1800 m., and a rock containing a fossilised dolphin, dating from 2-5 Myrs ago. Not only do the findings indicate dramatic changes in climate, the marine flora and fauna found at an altitude of 1800 m. shows remarkably rapid ________mountain building____ to have taken place, and this is a problem to explain, for Antarctica does not have a seismic history which might account for such ________mountain building____. Saturn's Recent Rings source: NEW SCIENTIST 3.7 .86, p.29 There is a new challenge to the orthodoxly held view that planetary rings are as old as ...
[SOME MOUNTAINS FORMED RECENTLY]
11. Volcanoes, Earthquakes, Comets. Ch.9 Axis Shifted (Earth In Upheaval) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Earth in Upheaval]
... der Erde), are certainly but faint reminiscences of those telluric movements to which the structure of almost every mountain range bears witness. Numerous examples of great mountain chains suggest by their structure . . . episodal disturbances of such indescribable and overpowering violence, that the imagination refuses to follow the understanding. . . ." 5 Suess thought that ________mountain building____ came to an end before the advent of man; but today we know that it lasted well into Recent time, and consequently man must have witnessed the great earthquakes that made the globe shudder. When the Andes rose in South America, according to the description of R. T. Chamberlin, "Hundreds, if not thousands ...
[RAPID MOUNTAIN BUILDING VS. GLACIAL TRANSPORT]
13. Discussion Comments From the Floor [Journals] [Aeon]
... model of Antarctic geology. The first evidence of climatic complexity came from microscopic fossils collected in 1965 at elevations 2100 to 2700 meters above sea level in the mountains of Antarctica.(2 ) Analysis of these fossils at Ohio State University surprisingly revealed the remains of marine creatures that lived 2 to 70 million years ago. To rule out rapid ________mountain building____ or a drastic rise in sea level, one has to resort to ice transport, but glacial sediment on the floors of nearby seas shows no evidence that Antarctica was free of ice during the recent part of the period represented by the microscopic fossils. For ice to carry marine fossils high up the mountains, a prior ice-free period ...
[CENOZOIC OROGENY CAUSED ICE SHEETS]
18. Uniformitarian Or Catastrophist? Ice Age Theory [Journals] [Velikovskian]
... , (1977), pp. 390-396] cannot be invoked to initiate Quaternary glaciation, because the continents have been supposedly in nearly their current configuration since well before the start of the ice age. Then why didn't the ice ages begin much sooner in the geological time scale? An obvious solution to the problem has been to propose that ________mountain building____ in the late Cenozoic initiated ice caps that coalesced to form large ice sheets. Further climatic cooling would cause lower plateau areas to become ice covered [R . F. Flint, Glacialand Quaternary Geology, (New York, 1971), pp. 808-809] The problem with this theory is that many ____mountainous areas are not now ...
[RECENT OROGENY]
20. Collapsing Schemes. Ch.13 Collapsing Schemes (Earth In Upheaval) [Velikovsky] [Velikovsky Earth in Upheaval]
... epochs were of very different length than has been assumed on the ground of the theory of uniformity. The very concept of a 60 000 000-year-long Tertiary when mountains were uplifted, followed by 1000 000 years of Ice Age, a time of great climatic changes, followed by 30 000 years of the tranquillity of Recent time, with quietude in ________mountain building____ and stability in climate, is basically wrong. The ________mountain building____ went on during the Ice Age, coinciding with climatic catastrophes, and both endured into Recent time, only a few thousand years ago. Notes. 1. A. L. Kroeber in the volume dedicated to A. M. Tozzer, The Maya and Their ...
[CATASTROPHIC OROGENY]
25. Earth has Flipped Over in Space Many Times [Journals] [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
... The Earth, spinning like a top, would tilt over until it was upside down. "I suggest that the actual reversal takes place in a matter of days- even as little as one day." Studies from many widely separated fields of science are linked together by the concept of polar shifts, Warlow says. Ice ages, ________mountain building____, periods of global volcanic activity, animal extinctions, sudden rise and fall of land masses, and magnetic field reversals are given a unified explanation. John White Rejected by a newspaper, this article recapitulates many catastrophic themes. Mr. White is writing a book, Pole Shift.- Ed.
[TIDAL PULL ON MOHO LAVA]
15. Solar System Studies (Part 2) [Journals] [Aeon]
... do not cross the Mojo to match up with those of lower strata. The Mojo deserves much more attention. It should be mentioned that Velikovsky referred to the possibility that electrical currents, resulting from close encounters between Earth and other planets, could produce subterranean heating of the very type which could melt vast stretches of the Mojo and lead to ________mountain building____ on Earth at low energy, provided there was a gravitational pull from above. With such a pull from above, it is readily apparent that Mojo lava could be extruded out from under subsiding land destined to become new sea bottoms, while lifting former lowlands or even sea bottoms to become the new highlands of very recent millennia. ...
[WATER EXPANSION FORMED MOUNTAINS]
8. Velikovsky's Water Mountain((s) [Journals] [SIS Internet Digest]
... was electrically or gravitationally produced. The dust tail may even be the biblical pillar of cloud by day and fire by night. The charge transfer mechanism, from Venus to Earth, could have been the comet's ion tail from which the Earth had very recently emerged..The following drawing illustrates the elements of the discussion. This electrostatically induced ________mountain building____ effect of water can be easily and inexpensively simulated. (Water molecules are electrical dipoles and you can do some wild stuff with them.) The drawing top-right shows how to do the experiment and the written material below is for clarification. Its best to try this under low humidity conditions (Winter time is generally good.) ...
[TWO GRAVITY THEORY]
3. Catastrophic Theory of Mountain Uplifts (A Crustal Deformation Theory) [Journals] [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
... the Earth's crust 20 percent of the Earth's mass is north of the 30th latitude north "slice," and 80 percent of the Earth's magma mass is south of the 30th latitude north. The convex versus concave ranges are respectively proportional to the position of the uplift between spin axis poles. This is significant only to a two-gravity theory of ________mountain building____. Such is due not to chance but to distribution of the Earth's subcrustal mass and upwelling magma. These patterns of convex and concave mountain ranges recur in North America, in South America, in Europe, in the mid-Pacific drowned ranges, in Indonesia, in Southern Asia, in Melanesia, and in Antarctica. Taking a global ...
[PARALLEL MOUNTAIN RANGES]
7. The Key to Mountain Ranges Part 3 Ch.VI (The Mysterious Comet) [Books]
... system of the north of England. He said of these that the corresponding directions only differ to a few degrees and that they have followed one another in the same order, leading to the supposition that there has been a kind of periodical recurrence of the same, or nearly the same, directions of these elevations. These parallel directions of ________mountain building____ are worldwide. Taking the Pyrenees as a basis of one of these systems, the direction being WNW to ESE as de Beaumont puts it, but from ESE to WNW as is really correct, we can trace the following like ranges, namely, the Ghauts of Malabar, and certain chains in Egypt, Syria, and Northern ...
[HISTORY OF OROGENY THEORIES]
14. Sinking and Rising Lands [Books] [de Grazia books]
... did Darwin's disciple, Thomas Huxley, and Darwin probably agreed with him. No injustice is done to Darwin by regarding his work as a great model of natural history, or "simply a theory" as some critics like to say. He had many doubts and made many "anomalous" observations about vast sudden catastrophes of species, of ________mountain building____, and, when he experienced a now-forgotten earthquake off the coast of Peru, he was appalled by the high energy displayed, noting in his Journals that the surface of the stricken island was changed more in a day than in a century of uniformitarian processes. Lesser known scientists developed more elaborate theories of the sinking of Pacific lands ...
[EARTHQUAKES TAPER OFF AFTER OROGENY]
60. Earthquakes in the Early Irish Tradition [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
... the basis of the material offered in the foregoing pages, the assumption is made here that earthquakes result from torsion of the crust following a change in the position of the equator and the displacement of matter inside the globe caused by the direct attraction of a cosmic body when in close contact. Pull, torsion, and displacement were responsible for ________mountain building____ too. "If this conception of the causes of earthquakes is correct, then there must have been fewer and fewer earthquakes during the course of time since the last cosmic catastrophe. The regions of the Apennine Peninsula, the eastern Mediterranean, and Mesopotamia, for which we have reliable records, can be compared in this respect with ...
[FORMER MOONS BUILT MOUNTAINS]
9. Evidences of Earlier Satellites (Life History of Our Earth) [Books]
... the Permian period. How coal and salt deposits came into being has already been discussed at another place. When the Carboniferous satellite first started building____ up stratified layers at the end of its pre-stationary period, calciferous sandstones and limestone shales, and later the great limestone beds and black shales (Culm), were laid down. In its chief ________mountain building____ period the satellite laid up the great systems of sandstone shales which contain the most important coal seams. The peculiarity that the older Carboniferous rocks cover a smaller area than the younger ones is due to the fact that the former were built up by the smaller zenithal tide hill, and the latter by the bigger nadiral one. After ...
[CAUSED BY HUGE ICE CAPS]
5. Scientific Prehistory [Books]
... ,000 years rather than 4, 000 million years); 2. the split up of the original supercontinent, Pangaea, was caused by the stresses due to build up of huge ice caps at its poles and this occurred (ending the ice age) around 10, 000 years ago; 3. ice cap forces were responsible for ________mountain building____; 4. coal, oil and fossils were formed by sudden deep burial of plants and animals in the resulting upheavals; 5. the re-adjustments required to restore horizontal and vertical isostacy are evident as continental drift; 6. the conventional geological and fossil "succession" reflect sequences of burial, rather than time; and 7. ...
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Brigit
- Posts: 1168
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:37 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
Thanks Lloyd you too, merry Christmas!
“Oh for shame, how these mortals put the blame upon us gods, for they say evils come from us, when it is they rather who by their own recklessness win sorrow beyond what is given…”
~Homer
~Homer
-
Lloyd
- Posts: 5425
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm
Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism
122454
SEMIGLOBAL SEDIMENTARY ROCK MEGASEQUENCES
_I discussed this quite a bit on page 37 of this thread at http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/php ... =540#p5172
_My first headlines there are PANGAEA BROKE UP AFTER, NOT DURING(?), THE GREAT FLOOD
and HERE IS A SUMMARY OF THE NEWGEOLOGY EARTH HISTORY TIMELINE (Click the link to see it).
_Almost halfway down the page is this highlighted title: Use of Sedimentary Megasequences to Re-create Pre-Flood Geography which has this link: https://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/c ... roceedings
_From that I made a collection of images at https://ibb.co/qFsf0ww which I copied to my private board at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/595/thread
__SEDIMENTARY ROCK FORMATION.
_That collection of images includes 4 graphs combined into 1, showing the amount of sediment in each megasequence in North and South America and in Africa. The numbers on the left indicate how many cubic kilometers of sediment are in each megasequence. The graph goes as high as 60 million. The Zuni megasequence in Africa has nearly that much sediment.
_The next 12 images below the graph/s show the coverage and locations of each megasequence on each of the 3 continents. Each tsunami cycle started with rising sea level and ended with falling sea level. The rising sea level deposited sediment and falling sea level washed away the higher altitude sediments down to lower altitudes. The white areas are where the sediments were washed away from the highlands.
_Mike Fischer suggested that the sediments came mostly from the continental shelves around the supercontinent, Pangaea.
__HUDSON BAY FORMED BEFORE THE FLOOD.
_The first megasequence combination filled in the Hudson Bay area in Canada and north of there, but later megasequences didn't add anything to it. It's apparent that there was a large impact crater before the Great Flood, which the first megasequence filled in.
__GULF OF MEXICO FORMED DURING OR AFTER THE FLOOD.
_The first megasequence combination and the Absaroka megasequence did not fill in the Gulf of Mexico. But the last two megasequences did fill it in, as you can see. This seems to be good evidence that the Gulf of Mexico formed during or after the Great Flood. Mike Fischer thinks the Zuni megasequence was the last one deposited during the Great Flood and the Tejas megasequence was deposited 500 years later during the Pangaea breakup. But it seems to me that the Zuni and Tejas both must have deposited during the later Flood.
__PANGAEA WAS 2 LARGE ISLANDS?
_The last image shows the 3 continents together along with most of the rest of the continents as part of the former supercontinent, Pangaea. You can see that there appear to have been large inland seas on the supercontinent which divided it into 2 large islands. If it's correct, it suggests that flora and fauna, including dinosaurs, would likely have been different on the two Islands, since the seas seem to be too wide to cross.
SEMIGLOBAL SEDIMENTARY ROCK MEGASEQUENCES
_I discussed this quite a bit on page 37 of this thread at http://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/forum3/php ... =540#p5172
_My first headlines there are PANGAEA BROKE UP AFTER, NOT DURING(?), THE GREAT FLOOD
and HERE IS A SUMMARY OF THE NEWGEOLOGY EARTH HISTORY TIMELINE (Click the link to see it).
_Almost halfway down the page is this highlighted title: Use of Sedimentary Megasequences to Re-create Pre-Flood Geography which has this link: https://digitalcommons.cedarville.edu/c ... roceedings
_From that I made a collection of images at https://ibb.co/qFsf0ww which I copied to my private board at https://futureschool.boards.net/post/595/thread
__SEDIMENTARY ROCK FORMATION.
_That collection of images includes 4 graphs combined into 1, showing the amount of sediment in each megasequence in North and South America and in Africa. The numbers on the left indicate how many cubic kilometers of sediment are in each megasequence. The graph goes as high as 60 million. The Zuni megasequence in Africa has nearly that much sediment.
_The next 12 images below the graph/s show the coverage and locations of each megasequence on each of the 3 continents. Each tsunami cycle started with rising sea level and ended with falling sea level. The rising sea level deposited sediment and falling sea level washed away the higher altitude sediments down to lower altitudes. The white areas are where the sediments were washed away from the highlands.
_Mike Fischer suggested that the sediments came mostly from the continental shelves around the supercontinent, Pangaea.
__HUDSON BAY FORMED BEFORE THE FLOOD.
_The first megasequence combination filled in the Hudson Bay area in Canada and north of there, but later megasequences didn't add anything to it. It's apparent that there was a large impact crater before the Great Flood, which the first megasequence filled in.
__GULF OF MEXICO FORMED DURING OR AFTER THE FLOOD.
_The first megasequence combination and the Absaroka megasequence did not fill in the Gulf of Mexico. But the last two megasequences did fill it in, as you can see. This seems to be good evidence that the Gulf of Mexico formed during or after the Great Flood. Mike Fischer thinks the Zuni megasequence was the last one deposited during the Great Flood and the Tejas megasequence was deposited 500 years later during the Pangaea breakup. But it seems to me that the Zuni and Tejas both must have deposited during the later Flood.
__PANGAEA WAS 2 LARGE ISLANDS?
_The last image shows the 3 continents together along with most of the rest of the continents as part of the former supercontinent, Pangaea. You can see that there appear to have been large inland seas on the supercontinent which divided it into 2 large islands. If it's correct, it suggests that flora and fauna, including dinosaurs, would likely have been different on the two Islands, since the seas seem to be too wide to cross.
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