Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Oct 21, 2021 12:38 am


SUMMARY OF PREVIOUS POST at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=570#p5769

Cardona's books say this, paraphrased.
But they only mention 5 of them.

_I've mentioned frequently before that the sedimentary rock strata must have been deposited over a very short time period of just a few centuries (probably less than ten or twelve centuries).
_It's interesting that Cardona stated that "no iridium has ever been found in association with the Chicxulub crater itself."
_His statement that "higher levels of iridium in Gubbio [Italy] clay [were] deposited long before and after the extinction of the dinosaurs" is based on the erroneous conventional belief that strata formed over millions of years, instead of centuries. They actually formed in mere months, but there were several strata-forming events centuries apart.
_He said "the iridium in the [Cretaceous-Tertiary] layer could have come originally from volcanoes." ... "Particles launched into the atmosphere by the eruption of the Kilauea volcano in Hawaii in January 1983 were found to contain as much as 'a million times more iridium than normal.'"

_These statements make it seem that the source of the iridium was more likely volcanoes than impacts.
_If that's the case, what did the Saturn novas deposit? Nanodiamonds? Microspherules? Volatile gases and liquids? Tektites? Dust?
_The Black Mat turned out to be algae containing soot and charcoal and the latter came from trees and other vegetation that burned in some locations, but not all locations.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:49 am




Widespread elevated iridium in Upper Triassic–Lower Jurassic strata of the Newark Supergroup: implications for use as an extinction marker
_Anomalous levels of iridium in sedimentary strata are associated with mass extinction events caused by impact events.
_In the case of the end-Triassic extinction event, the anomalies as well as the extinctions are linked to the eruption of the Central Atlantic Magmatic Province (CAMP) flood basalts.
_We report new data on concentrations of iridium in continental strata of the Fundy, Deerfield, Hartford and Newark basins, both above and below the oldest CAMP flows in these basins, that demonstrate that these anomalies are more common than previously known.
_We conclude that the enrichments were at least in some instances likely derived locally by concentration due to leaching directly from the lavas into sediments proximal to the CAMP flows due to post-eruptive hydrothermal activity.
_In other instances, the enrichments likely record the global fallout of aerosols and/or ash particles during the eruptions of the CAMP basalts.
_The common association of the highest levels of enrichment with organic matter suggests either redox control or stabilization by formation of organometallic complexes following post-eruptive redistribution.
_These findings demonstrate the importance of considering the distribution and magnitude of iridium anomalies in considering the source of the iridium and possible extinction mechanisms.

Volcanic Eruption at the K/T Boundary

Dinosaur extinction lines up closely with timing of volcanic eruptions ... eruptions/

Cardona had said that no iridium has been found at the Chicxulub crater site in Mexico. But the following article says otherwise.

Iridium in undersea crater confirms asteroid wiped out the dinosaurs ... dinosaurs/
_Strong evidence that the dinosaurs were killed-off 66 million years ago by an asteroid hitting Earth has been found in Chicxulub crater under the Gulf of Mexico.
_An international team has measured an abundance of the rare element iridium in the crater and similarly high concentrations of the element are known to occur in sediments laid down at the time of the Cretaceous–Paleogene boundary (K–Pg) extinction event
_In 2016 ... scientists ... on an expedition to the Chicxulub crater ... took [914] m of rock core samples and found a similar spike in iridium content in sediment laid down just after the crater was formed.
_Indeed, the sedimentary rock containing iridium is so thick that they were able to date the dust to about two decades after the impact.
_Studies of the cores also revealed high levels of several other elements associated with asteroids and have been found in similar abundances in K–Pg sediments at 52 sites around the world.
_The researchers found the greatest concentrations of iridium near the top of the crater’s peak ring.


I discussed this finding of a seemingly sunken city quite a few times on this forum as you can see here: search.php?keywords=cuba . I mistakenly said several times that it was a mile or more deep, but it was only 650 meters deep. On my weekly Sci News Blog this week (today) I provided a link to a recent Ancient Architects video on the subject. He mentions that the images are not actual photographic images, but sonar, or simulations based on sonar. He concludes that the city is likely not real. He thinks sea level could not have been that low so recently. But I've discussed the riverbeds on the sea floor (the Atlantic and Pacific, I think) which must have been formed when sea level was extremely low and it must have been after the Pangaea supercontinent broke up, because riverbeds can't form underwater and the Atlantic Ocean didn't exist before the Pangaea breakup. So I conclude that the sunken city could go either way. It could be a sunken city, or it could be natural features. We'll have to wait and see. But the video is good. Here's the link:

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Oct 29, 2021 1:02 am



Ancient Cataclysms: 9 Catastrophes That Rocked the World
_This mostly mentions more recent cataclysms, but it also mentions Chicxulub and the Carolina Bays events. Probably not very informative, but maybe a little.


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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Oct 29, 2021 10:38 am


(I didn't get finished with this last night.)

Ancient Cataclysms: 9 Catastrophes That Rocked the World
_This mostly mentions more recent cataclysms, but it also mentions Chicxulub and the Carolina Bays events. Probably not very informative, but maybe a little.

_This paper is pretty good. It mentions cataclysms of about 2000 BC in the Baltic Sea region and myths that may relate to impacts and other cataclysmic effects.

The Last of the Rephaim: Conquest and Cataclysm in the Heroic Ages of Ancient Israel
_This abstract suggests that giants in ancient Israel related to chaos forces.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:40 pm


Ancient Cataclysms: 9 Catastrophes That Rocked the World ... ms-0011918

_underwater exploration of the Black Sea by Robert Ballard (2001), featured in National Geographic magazine, confirmed the findings of the geologists William Ryan and Walter Pitman ... pointing to a catastrophic flood circa 5600 BC. Salt water from the Mediterranean Sea broke through the Bosporus into what is now the Black Sea but was once a glacial freshwater lake about 150 meters below present sea level. ... there is an underwater beachline in the Black Sea, below which the remains of freshwater mollusks and sediments have been found, with a radiocarbon date of 7,500 years ago. [That dating method is pretty good, but not that accurate. It was likely a few millennia later.]
_One type of cataclysm that can be proven in the Baltic Sea area is the sudden drainage of periglacial lakes at the end of the last Ice Age. As pointed out by Ryan and Pitman (1998), Baker (2002), and Colman (2002), the retreat of glaciers leads to the trapping of the melting fresh water in huge lakes, which get new drainage channels as the glacial retreat continues. These channels enlarge rapidly due to erosion, which can lead to the sudden release of large volumes of fresh water into the ocean, affecting the circulation of currents and even the global climate. The Baltic Sea experienced two such major drainage events. The first was the draining of the Baltic Glacial Lake across south-central Sweden (through the Mälaren Valley) in 8213 BC, leading to the sudden lowering of the water level by 25–30 meters. Such precise dating was made possible by counting clay-sediment layers, and confirmed by radiocarbon dating of the freshwater and saltwater strata. Then the connection with the ocean was gradually cut off again due to isostatic rebound after Scandinavia was freed from the weight of the glaciers. Thus, a new freshwater glacial drainage lake was born, around 7300 BC. Some centuries later, about 6500 BC, this elevated Ancylus Lake broke through to the ocean across the straits of Denmark. Again, there was a significant lowering of the water level, this time by almost 20 meters (Kessel & Punning 1995).
_another, literally earth-shattering, cataclysm took place in the area, when a meteorite broke apart in the atmosphere and the pieces smashed into the Estonian island of Saaremaa to form the crater of Kaali and several smaller ones. ... We think the date of 2000 BC is more plausible
_At the time of the sudden drainage of the Baltic Glacial Lake (10,200 years ago), the Baltic Sea was in a barren Arctic tundra environment, but by the time of the draining of Ancylus Lake (8,500 years ago), there was a more hospitable Boreal climate, with pine forests and hazel coppices predominating.... Archeological finds indicate that there was human habitation in the area throughout this period.
_In the opening rune of the Finnish-Karelian epic Kalevala ... the world is created when a tireless swimmer ... drifting in the sea, raises a knee ... and thus provides a nesting place for a bird. ... When the heat from the hatching eggs causes the swimmer to stir, the eggs tumble out of the nest, crack open, and turn into the earth and heavens....
_The myth about the creation of the world from an egg is known over a very wide area extending from the Mediterranean to India, Japan, Polynesia and Peru....
_myths about a bird that builds up a land form with mud from the bottom of the sea are likewise relatively naturalistic accounts that fit the images that ancient eyewitnesses would have seen when periglacial lakes in Eurasia and North America suddenly drained.
_The most plausible alternative explanation for such creation-myths would be isostatic rebound, the gradual rising of the land that continues long after a glacier has melted. As a result of historical maps and documents, today’s residents along the Baltic shore are aware that the land is gradually rising. Old seaside castles and towers in Tallinn and Kuressaare, for example, are now at quite a distance from the shore. But the rate at which the land is rising is so slow (2 mm a year, according to Tiirmaa 1995: 21) that it would be difficult to notice without written records going back centuries.
_The Kaali meteorite crash is the kind of unique and astounding event that must have become a topic of storytelling and singing for many generations afterward. As mentioned above, it evidently occurred around 2000 BC, on Saaremaa Island in the Baltic Sea. As recent scientific studies have established (Tiirmaa 1994), a meteorite of iron streaked from east to west over the Estonian mainland, broke apart as a result of atmospheric friction, and hit the island in at least 9 places, leaving craters that can be seen to this day.
_The long-tailed fireball would have been brighter than the sun, visible not just on Saaremaa but as far as 700 km (450 miles) away.... To the witnesses in this vast area, it would have appeared that a heavenly body, perhaps the sun, was chased through the sky by something long and fiery and was annihilated. If the event occurred at night, there would have been no sun in the sky at the moment of impact to contradict this interpretation.
_There is an Estonian chant to encourage the sun to come out from its stone cellar.... As the sun goes down in the west and rises in the east, it looks like it spends the night underground, hence the image of a stone cellar would be appropriate, apart from the meteorite crash.
_From a vantage point on the Estonian mainland, the meteorite would have had the appearance of a streak in the sky. This might explain why we can more easily find Estonian tales of flying, fiery serpents and the like (see below). It is noteworthy that a shooting star is called pisuhänd ‘spark-tail’ in Eastern Estonia, but tulihänd ‘firetail’ in Western Estonia, perhaps reflecting the relative harmlessness versus destructive reality of the meteorite from those respective vantage points
_... the ancient Greeks told of Phaëthon, who begged his father Helios, the sun god, for a chance to steer the solar chariot for just one day. The inexperienced driver lost control of the chariot, which veered off the sun’s proper path and tumbled to earth in a fiery catastrophe, burning fields and forest. The culprit earned a fatal lightning stroke from an angry Zeus, and Phaëthon’s grieving sisters were turned into quaking poplar trees. There is certainly a parallel to the Kalevala account, where the disaster is set in motion when the sky-god Ukko gives the maiden Imbi the task of caring for a heavenly fire, which was to become a new moon and a new day; Imbi lets it slip through her fingers and fall to the earth. But the emphasis in the Greek tale is on the relationships between the gods, while the Finnic tale goes into great detail about the earthly consequences at the site of impact. If the two myths are in fact linked, then the spread from the Baltic area (with an impact crater formed in the presence of human witnesses) to Greece seems more likely than vice versa. Baltic amber has been found in Greece, so there was an ancient trade network that could have served to transport news and tales, as well as goods, from the Baltic to Greece. Is it just an intriguing coincidence that the amber tears of Phaëthon’s sisters became the golden leaves of the poplar trees (Grimaldi 1996:149)?
_Meri (1976: 250–253) notes that the streaking meteorite could have been the inspiration for the many references to flying, fiery snakes in Baltic Finnic lore.
_Among neighboring Indo-European peoples, snakes and dragons are more likely to be seen as creatures that are evil and capable of being vanquished (e.g., by St. George, St. Michael, or St. Margaret), and even in Estonia many such tales have been collected (Järv 1999). But occasionally there are intriguing hints that even these tales may contain some echo of the meteorite crash. For example, from the northern coast of Germany (Pomerania and the isle of Rügen) comes a tale about a fire-breathing dragon which terrified people and animals, but eventually ended up in the Baltic Sea, swimming in the direction of Sweden (Jahn 1999: 137), which loosely fits the trajectory of the Kaali meteorite.
_It may not be out of place here to note that the Anglo-Saxon hero Beowulf of southeastern Sweden perishes in his last battle, against a fiery dragon. The “sky-plague” that was Beowulf’s nemesis was a long creature that flew at night over a coast of gray stone cliffs with vaults that hid treasure-troves of ancient heathens “of another race”. It used its fiery, poisonous breath to scorch and depopulate the countryside, reducing forts and earthworks to dust and ashes (Heaney 2000: 151–159). The description of the dragon and the devastation it causes has much in common with the Kaali catastrophe, and Saaremaa does indeed have gray stone cliffs
_The aftermath of the meteorite’s crash would have included a shower of hot cinders and rocks on the island of Saaremaa. This may explain the curious contradictory phrase ‘hot snow’, which is found in Estonian folk poetry.... ejecta debris from the craters fell to earth. This may be the source of the concept of “thunder rocks”, which is found among the Livs, who lived on the shore of the Bay of Riga and had close contact with the Saaremaa Estonians
_Derivation of the name Thor from the ancient German Donar (thunder) seems more likely.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Nov 02, 2021 2:57 am



Randall Carlson had a video some years ago on Youtube, possibly still available, showing how Halloween apparently came about due to Earth crossing the Taurid meteor stream twice a year, at the end of June and the end of October, having meteors large enough to cause occasional local catastrophes. In late October the stream looks like it's coming from the Pleiades in the constellation Taurus and that's what ancient myths indicated. The Tunguska explosion of 1908 occurred on June 30 and it produced a strong wind that knocked down trees, maybe pine trees, over a large area in Siberia. The Chicago Fire of October 8-10 occurred in 1871. Other fires occurred at the same time in more rural areas in Wisconsin and Michigan. Biela's comet appears to have broken up about that time and it may have contained acetyline and other volatiles that caused the extremely hot fires, maybe with meteoric air burst as the igniter. The date may be too early for the Taurid stream, but maybe Biela was earlier in that stream.

Halloween has remained popular I guess worldwide ever since the times of ancient myths. Carlson figured that there were originally a greater number of large objects in the stream, which produced catastrophes on a local scale once or twice a year, or every few years, initially, with the number gradually declining over the centuries. I also guess Carlson likely read Clube and Napier's books as the main source of his info. If it's true that there were such catastrophes at least several times a century, figuring out which cataclysms occurred when may be more complicated. Or maybe it will be apparent which catastrophes were local and which were global.

Following are excerpts from ... oom_cat=-1 from a search on Taurid etc. Some interesting data that I and others might find useful sooner or later. Note the last entry saying the Moon is still getting pummeled by Taurid meteors.

Commemoration Of The 2300bc Event [Journals] [SIS Review]
... He has written two unpublished books: the first on cultural and geophysical events occurring at 2300 BC (excerpts of this book have been published by the SIS) and the second book dedicated to the thesis that all the early mythology developed from an encounter of the Earth with a massive meteoroid stream in 2300BC. Introduction The Earth's encounter with the Taurid meteoroid stream in 2300BC was a terrifying experience, involving heavy loss of life. The overwhelming fall of meteoroids occurred at the same time as intense flooding which people were helpless to resist. It was commemorated by people all over the Earth for thousands of years and is even commemorated today, though the meaning has dimmed with time.

The Cosmic Winter by Victor Clube and Bill Napier [Journals] [SIS Review]
... , The Cosmic Serpent [1 ], in which they aimed to show that a huge comet had terrified our ancestors, caused global disasters, and been largely forgotten in a general dislocation of Mediterranean history/chronology. The original super-comet gradually degraded, leaving behind such remnants as certain meteor streams (most notably the Southern, Northern and Beta Taurids), some active comets (principally Encke's comet), a number of Apollo asteroids (notably Hephaistos), and the dusty solar halo known as the Zodiacal Light. A variety of impacts in historical times (including the Tunguska event) are attributed to the same cause, all the way back to Noah's Flood. The sequence continues

The Countdown to a New Celestial Hazard [Journals] [Aeon]
... that disintegrating large comets were mostly responsible for sustaining both the near-Earth asteroid and short-period comet populations and for controlling most aspects of terrestrial catastrophism (climate, orogeny, geomagnetic reversals, plate movements, mass extinction, biological speciation, etc). As a natural corollary of this thesis, a recent very large comet which was probably responsible for the Taurid meteoroid complex, was instanced as the most evident exemplar of the process by which the present near-Earth asteroid population was replenished and through which the Earth (and civilization) was currently experiencing catastrophism on a ten or twenty thousand year timescale. Some of the implications of this thesis have recently been explored in their book The Cosmic Winter. Following

Independent Confirmation of a Catastrophic Event [Journals] [SIS Review]
... of meteoroids, causing craters which eventually disappeared due to weathering. Iyengar has reasonably speculated in the paper that the falling objects were fragments of an asteroid. As I will discuss a little later, the writing has been dated by him to be acceptably close to my postulated 2300 BC date, so the possibility exists that they may have been Taurid cometary meteoroids. This type of meteoroid is relatively lightweight and fragile, and therefore likely to fragment or burn out in the atmosphere. However, Clube and Napier, as well as other astronomers, feel that the Taurid stream complex could also contain asteroids. The asteroids, having a rocky, stony composition, would be more likely to

Forum [Journals] [SIS Review]
... identified. Backtracking from the orbits of comet Encke and asteroid Oljato, Clube and Napier found that 9,500 years ago these orbits were nearly identical. They conjectured that a major disintegration at that time of one previous prime body created these two bodies and that subsequent disintegrations former the other comets and asteroids of the Stohl stream (enveloping the Taurid meteors, comet Encke and asteroids of Oljato type). They say that around 3500-3000 BC Oljato's orbit would have lain virtually in Earth's orbital plane, making certain a series of close encounters. They propose that the stream (or at least one of its components) was the protagonist in catastrophes afflicting Earth in the past 5000 or more

Sun 13 July Abstracts [Journals] [SIS Internet Digest]
... in producing the last major glaciation ~50-10 kyr BP and which subsequently experienced a significant cis-Jovian planetary encounter ~5 kyr BP, the latter reducing its orbital eccentricity whilst at the same time enhancing and broadening its meteoroidal stream. Perceived initially as a central "tree of or life", such a system was to evolve and become the present Taurid Stream. It follows that the remnant of proto- Encke core of the Taurids is then associated with predictable "dark age" catastrophes. These last for several centuries and occur around 2000 - 2500n BC; n = 0, 1, 2... being naturally combined with a less frequent, more random, lower incidence of such

2nd SIS Cambridge Conference Abstracts [Journals] [SIS Internet Digest]
... discussed. 9:45 Bill Napier, Armagh Observatory Cometary Catastrophes, Cosmic Dust and Ecological Disasters in Historical Times: The Astronomical Framework Available data from fireball and comet observations, meteorite impacts, small lunar craters and the current near-Earth environment are assembled to yield a coherent picture of the interface between the Earth and its current interplanetary environment. The Taurid Complex of meteors, meteoroids, asteroids and Comet Encke has probably been a significant and regularly visible celestial hazard from the last Ice Age through to the present day. These data lead to the expectation that history has been punctuated by: (I ) Tunguska-like impacts, singly or as part of fireball swarms; (ii) freezing events

Chiron: Giant Comet, Agent of Catastrophe? [Journals] [SIS Review]
... but Hahn and Bailey's simulations are even more compatible with the Cosmic Serpent/Winter hypothesis. For: "If Chiron (or some other large comet) has previously circulated in a short-period orbit, however, it may be possible to argue [references here to Clube and Napier's papers] that P/Encke and the associated bodies in the Taurid meteor stream complex were produced by ejection of material from the giant comet's outer layers. Ejection of P/Encke (or its progenitor) from Chiron during an earlier short-period phase of evolution may provide an explanation for the otherwise extreme nature of the forces that have to be invoked to explain P/Encke's present orbit." This is

The Bedrock of Myth [Articles]
... from what we now associate with the sky. [Alternatively, this imagery also seems compatible, in many ways, with what would be seen were Earth to acquire temporarily, and perhaps at more than one epoch, a number of nearly vertical, i.e ., highly inclined, rings of meteoritic debris from interaction with the then-youthful Taurid meteor stream, as Moe Mandelkehr has modelled and proposes in his manuscript The Answered Riddle: A Thesis on the Meaning of Myth, which is a major adjunct to the pioneering work of Clube and Napier and co-workers. The Taurid stream is the presumptive source owing to the ancient prominence of the Pleiades which is near the radiant of the

The Cosmic Winter by Victor Clube and Bill Napier [Journals] [SIS Review]
... a general dislocation of Mediterranean history/chronology. The original super-comet gradually degraded, leaving behind such remnants as certain meteor streams (most notably the Southern, Northern and Beta Taurids), some active comets (principally Encke's comet), a number of Apollo asteroids (notably Hephaistos), and the dusty solar halo known as the Zodiacal Light
... A variety of impacts in historical times (including the Tunguska event) are attributed to the same cause, all the way back to Noah's Flood. The sequence continues through prehistoric times to a hypothetical catastrophe which triggered the last Ice Age - a particularly severe Cosmic Winter. There were still earlier swarms of comets, and their capture from Galactic

Comets -- the Cause of Historic and Prehistoric Catastrophes [Articles]
... What is now emerging is that there's a lot more besides Encke's Comet up there going around in something like Encke's Comet's orbit. We've long known of the existence of the Taurid Meteor Streams, for example, these are things that we run through a couple of times every year, producing shooting stars. Radio astronomers soon after the last war
... there because they hit the Moon every year. We've had seismometers on the Moon which have recorded this. They arrive around 30th June. You probably all know that the Tunguska missile landed on 30th June, and one astronomer at least has claimed that it was to do with the Alpha-Taurid meteor stream. That was quite a big object,

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Nov 05, 2021 6:22 pm



On Monday above, I was mentioning Randall's video from a few years ago in which he provided evidence of what my headline says. It so happens that he had a new video uploaded 2 days earlier that I didn't see till later. That's the first one below. The second one below is from the link he posted under his latest video. It's now on Howtube instead of Youtube. He seems to be planning to upload a number of videos on this subject in the coming weeks or months.

Ep001 The Cosmic Origins of Halloween (an introduction) New Series
(Goto 22'30" re Halloween dates in many ancient cultures)

Decrypting the Cosmic Origins of Halloween
(Goto 12'38" re Taurid Meteor Stream arrived ca. 20,000 years ago)
(Goto 19:00" re Book of Genesis says Great Flood started on about Halloween)


I've been stating on this thread that there seems to have been at least two Great Floods, similar to Mike Fischer's ideas at Mike doesn't seem to discuss the Younger Dryas event, but the event before the Younger Dryas one was the breakup of the supercontinent Pangaea by an asteroid, which likely caused a Great Flood as well. There was likely an earlier Great Flood some centuries before the supercontinent breakup event, which deposited most of the sedimentary rock strata. The Pangaea breakup event likely added the top megasequence of strata or the Younger Dryas event contributed to the top megasequence.

Randall is very likely wrong about the Taurid Meteor Stream having formed 20,000 years ago. It likely formed from the early Saturn System during a Saturn Flare or Nova. It probably involved Venus, since Venus is likely the source of the witch images from Halloween. The Genesis Great Flood was probably the Younger Dryas Flood, which started Halloween.


In the second video above, made a few years ago, Randall showed an illustration of the Taurid Meteor Stream, which appears to be an elliptical stream stretching from Mercury nearly to Jupiter. Cardona thought the Saturn System came into the solar system on a slowly spiraling orbit, but I think it may have been on a highly elliptical orbit. I don't have enough evidence to say which seems probable. Dave Talbott has stated that the Saturn System seems to have broken up at about the orbit of Venus. Ev Cochrane doesn't seem to have given the matter much thought as yet. But I agree with Dave that the system must have broken up somewhere between the orbits of Mars and Venus, because most life on Earth likely would have perished from freezing to death if Earth had to spend several years traveling alone from the orbit of Jupiter or Saturn to its present orbit. That's why I have supposed that the system didn't break up until it reached an orbit that could sustain life on Earth. Saturn could have broken away around the orbit of the inner asteroid belt, if Jupiter continued on with the system further toward Earth's present orbit. I think that was kind of Dave's view. Ancient myths say that Jupiter replaced Saturn for a period of time before Jupiter too broke away, which could have happened between the orbits of Mars and Venus. The orbits of each of the planets could have been circularized by encountering a great deal of gas and dust, possibly produced by Saturn Flares or Novas.

PS, later in the second video he showed that Halloween was in some cultures celebrated in mid November, which is when Earth enters the Leonid Meteor Stream. Apparently, the two streams were initially just one stream and later broke into two.

This model is being finessed. Yes, no?

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:41 pm



The pyramids were built of sedimentary rock that was formed by the Great Flood. Therefore they can't have been built before the Flood. But Creationists are likely wrong to follow the Masoretic Bible timeline, which probably dated the Younger Dryas Flood of about 2400 BC, instead of the Great Flood. The Septuagint Bible seems more likely to have the Flood date correct at about 3200 BC. So some of the pyramids could have been built before the Younger Dryas Flood, but not before the Great Flood. This is an interesting topic that I just came across and I figure it's worth sharing here, as there's quite a bit of useful info, IMO. The following are highlights of the article (as usual).

Who is wrong about the biblical date of the Flood, and the Great Pyramid?

Question: ... if the pyramids were built after the flood, then there must be the issue of how quickly deep limestone quarries were solidified. Unless they used water logged sediments to build them, which would not have been strong enough to support the weight, there seems to me there is no way that they were built so soon after the flood. ... Something definitely doesn’t add up, especially as the building blocks of the pyramids contain sedimentary fossils. ... If it weren’t for the pyramids, ultimately, I could accept your timelines and reasoning, but the pyramids must have been built, either much more recently, at least 1000 years post flood, or the flood occurred at least 1000 years before, which surely must be the most likely scenario....

[Answer:] ... Much of the dates that we see today that are ascribed to virtually everything in ancient Egypt are based upon a chronology written by the Egyptian priest Manetho in his work The Aegyptiaca (the History of Egypt). Remember, that the Egyptians had no calendar like we do today. They derived periods or dated things in relation to other rulers who had died previously.

... There are also other problems with trying to work out the accuracy of the names of the kings that Manetho referred to because each pharaoh typically had five ruling titles (Horus name, Nebti name, Golden Horus name, Prenomen name, and the Nomen (birth) name). Furthermore, Manetho was writing in Greek and so we have to rely on his Greek transliterations from the Egyptian names he chose to record. For further information, see this section in Gary’s article called Manetho’s Dates. Manetho created 30 dynasties in an effort to record Egyptian history. “However, he did not use the term [dynasty] in the modern sense, by bloodlines, but rather, introduced new dynasties whenever he detected some sort of discontinuity.”1 We know for sure that his chronology is demonstrably wrong on many counts, as he deliberately extended Egyptian chronology for political point-scoring, most likely to counter the Greek historian Herodotus who was also writing a history of the Greeks. [See ... -antiquity ]

... What Gavin tried to do in his article was to put the building of Khufu’s Great Pyramid in biblical context, and not give an exact date, because we don’t know it. All that can be said, for the moment, is that it was built after Babel, maybe a century or so, to allow for a work-force large enough to develop, but still allow for the rest of the country to function. Again, our Tour Egypt booklet [ ] has a wonderful population growth model (using maximum and minimum variables) after Babel and even with the minimum parameters, there could have been a large enough workforce in Egypt to build the 4th Dynasty pyramids.

(The pyramids exist because of the Flood) So, hopefully, you do recognize, it is untenable to place the pyramid’s construction pre-Flood, because of the geological evidence. (I.e. the pyramid blocks containing fossils, like nummulites, which are found in vast numbers within the limestone, no evidence of water erosion on the limestone casing blocks, etc.).

... has made a pastime out of collecting many examples of speedy rock formation....
See for instance these linked articles from Creation magazine: Speedy stone by David Catchpoole; Rapid rock. Unexpected application for hard-rock recipe by Tas Walker; Rapid rocks. Granites … they didn’t need millions of years of cooling, by Andrew Snelling and John Woodmorappe; A case for rapid formation of calcareous concretions by Michael J. Oard; and a whole section in that includes speedy geology.

So my answer is that the first pyramids were likely built a few hundred years after the Great Flood and a few centuries before the Younger Dryas Flood. The human population took a few centuries to reach numbers great enough to build them. Mammal populations were also increasing in numbers in the Arctic and everywhere else at that time and were then wiped out by the YD event. I'm referring to the demise of the mammoths and other mammals in the Arctic regions and the large mammals of North America etc.

I'm still trying to figure out how the then evolving Saturn system fits into the timeline. If the YD event was caused by Saturn's last nova, then Saturn must have left the system at about that time and Jupiter took over. The remaining system I think moved from the asteroid belt to the orbit of Venus before Jupiter returned to its present orbit. Mars left the system first where it presently orbits, then Earth left at its present orbit, then Venus left and Jupiter went home. Jupiter could have gone back to its home orbit after reaching the orbit of Mars, because Earth could have remained unfrozen at that point in the solar system, I think. What I'm getting at is that Earth needed Jupiter's warmth to survive the cold between Jupiter's and Mars' home orbits, i.e. if it took more than a year or two to cross that region.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Nov 17, 2021 1:11 am



Pentecost [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
_From: SIS Workshop Vol 6 No 2 (Aug 1985)
_Pentecost James E. Strickling Like the universe of which he is a part, man is an electrical creature. The natural currents within our bodies are small, but their role is extremely significant; they govern our very lives. These minute currents can be disrupted, or overridden. In particular "... extremely low frequency (ELF) fields have the capacity to penetrate buildings and living tissue and hence are potential biological stimuli."(1 ) And when this happens, our perceptions can falter; and our reactions and responses might be beyond our control. Such stimuli might have ...
_In a paper entitled "The Tower of Babel and the Confusion of Tongues"(7 ), I presented evidence that electrical or electromagnetic stimulation (of an appropriate frequency and intensity) of a human subject can result in confused or garbled speech - an uncontrolled response. Presumably, such speech might sound to an untrained ear like another language - another "tongue".

Solar System Studies [Journals] [Aeon]
_From: Aeon I:1 (Jan 1988)
_Solar System Studies, Fred Hall
_INTRODUCTION. Prior to this century arguments raged over the implications of the geological record and the subject of evolution of life forms on Earth. Some argued that Earth had been fundamentally altered by the Universal Deluge and that the biblical record should be taken literally. Others argued that uniformitarian processes and slow evolution by adaptation of species could explain the geological record as we find it. The latter school gained the day and their premises came to be widely taught. A corollary result was a loss of interest in biblical descriptions of catastrophes and a general disregard for tales of other ancient cultures regarding ...
_Some of these descriptions are consistent with the unleashing of literal thunderbolts, as in the destruction of the tower of Babel and the later destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. In the Greek myth of the wars of the gods, it is by the Jovian thunderbolts that the threefold mass of mountains ...

[Comment: We did discuss some such electrical effects a little some months ago on this thread.]

Variations on a Theme of Philolaos [Journals] [Kronos]
_From: Kronos Vol. V No. 1 (Fall 1979)
_Variations on a Theme of Philolaos, Lynn E. Rose Copyright 1979 by Lynn E. Rose [Note: This paper is much indebted to the works of Immanuel Velikovsky, and I have incorporated a number of his specific claims about the Age of Kronos. Velikovsky should of course not be held responsible for any of my own suggestions, such as the idea that Earth once kept the same hemisphere turned toward Saturn.] Philolaos of Southern Italy was a Pythagorean philosopher, and a contemporary of Socrates and Democritus. Three Southern Italian cities claimed him: Kroton, Metapontum, and Tarentum. ...
... planet lost its Sun of Night and when the natural division between "Earth" and Counter-Earth was obliterated.) The story of the Confusion of Tongues at the Tower of Babel is traditionally dated some centuries after the Deluge (that is, well after the Age of Kronos), and is sometimes associated with Babylon. I suggest that such ...

The Cosmic String of Pearls [Journals] [Aeon]
_From: Aeon Volume VI, Number 4
_The Cosmic String of Pearls, Marinus Anthony van der Sluijs, The New Mythology
_The quest for the lost origins of world mythology can be resolved with the help of a relatively small number of principles that one might call the "axioms of mythology." One of these is the understanding that the visual templates of the myths - the graphical imagery evoked in the stories, such as the descriptions of the gods and their landscapes - are a far more accurate and reliable pointer to the origin of the myths than the acquired psychological and sociological functions, meanings, and interpretations, to which too much attention has been paid in ...
_Using computers to back-compute the planetary orbits, Pang and colleagues settled on a date in late February 1953 BC when Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn came within only five degrees of one another (close enough that they could be blocked out by a thumb held at arm's length)." [50] It ...
... cit., p. 174. [52] Ibid., p. 195. The strong resemblance these folk-tales bear to the Biblical account of the tower of Babel is no coincidence, as all are symbolic elaborations of the same visual prototypes. One of the common symbols of the polar axis was the tower, whose layers corresponded ...

The Mystery Of The Pleiades [Journals] [Kronos]
_From: Kronos Vol. III No. 4 (Summer 1978)
_The Mystery Of The Pleiades, Dwardu Cardona, Copyright (C) 1977/78 by Dwardu Cardona, Lewis M. Greenberg and Warner B. Sizemore.
_1. The Problem. The Book of Job, as it has been translated into English, bears a reference to the stellar constellation of the Pleiades the meaning of which has long mystified scholars of Biblical lore. As found in the King James version of the Bible, this reference reads: "Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?"(1 ) The Douay version, however, ...
... Syriac names of Orion have been connected with the ancient Oriental tradition that Nimrod ... was fettered in the sky by God for his obstinacy in building the tower of Babel."(54) This connection between Nimrod and Orion has already been pointed out by others.(55) Sieff also reminds us that Nimrod, as Ninurta ...

Did Saturn Explode Twice? [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
_From: SIS Workshop Vol 4 No 3 (Dec 1981)
_Did Saturn Explode Twice?, Hugh Eggleton
_In Kronos V:1 and the works of David Talbott, we are presented with overwhelming evidence that prior to Noah's flood, Saturn, which was then a star, became a nova. In Kronos III:3 Dwardu Cardona outlines a similar picture involving Saturn but he places Saturn's "flare-up" at the so called dawn of creation which implies that Talbotts "sun of night" would have been an already-spent star. Since Cardona's theory is also well founded, it is time to ask the question: did Saturn explode twice? According to the Bible, Saturn definitely exploded twice. In Genesis 1:3 "God said let there be light and there was light. God saw the light was good." (Jerusalem Bible) In Genesis 7:10 "And it came to pass after seven days that the waters of the flood were on the Earth." (King James version) ...

The Celestial Ship of North Vol. I [Books]
_The Celestial Ship of North By E. Valentia Straiton, Part 2, With Symbolical Illustrations and a Glossary
... Child of both became a substitute for the Mother and the Father of a later period of theology. The seventh day, Saturday, was always the day of Sut, Saturn, but when Sut of Sabean origin was turned into a solar God, his day became Sunday, the day of the Sun.[14] In this solar ...
_... so it is below, that which has been, will return again. As it is in heaven, so on earth."[9 ] The Tower of Babel, one of the most ancient astronomical temples, was called the Temple of "Seven Lights," or the "Celestial Earth." It was an edifice embodying ...

The Orion Mystery by Robert Bauval and Adrian Gilbert [Journals] [SIS Workshop]
_From: SIS Chronology and Catastrophism Workshop 1995 No 2 (June 1995)
_The Orion Mystery, by Robert Bauval and Adrian Gilbert Heinemann, 1994
_... Bauval and Gilbert have taken a look upstairs and at last astronomy and the sky have begun to be taken seriously as important features of the past. Basically, their premise is that the pyramids were constructed on a stellar pattern
_... at the end of the outstretched hand of Orion but located within the constellation of Taurus. On that basis it could be argued that Osiris = Kronos (see Cardona re Saturn), Seth = Zeus and Horus = Herakles (the hero). The severed body of Osiris cum Kronos was scattered around the sky and some of these fragments ...
... Horse of Odin, the world tree with its roots in the Otherworld (below the horizon) and its branches in the visible sky. On that basis a reinterpretation of Babel (from babil = comets) and the dispersal of humans (originally the gods) is a story that could have arisen out of the death of Osiris ...

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Nov 17, 2021 6:31 pm


_The highlights of the above Babel info for me was that the story of Babel was likely based on the Saturn System breakup. The tower was likely the polar column that appeared to reach from Earth to Saturn. The confusion of languages may have been caused by electrical effects that messed with people's minds, so they couldn't talk right and couldn't understand each other for a time. The dispersion of the people likely meant the dispersion of the gods, who were the planets. But people on Earth may have dispersed as well at that time.

_I was just reviewing this post from Oct 22 viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&p=5955#p5814 and then I did an image search and found this brief article from 2016.

Drilling Into the Chicxulub Crater, Ground Zero of the Dinosaur Extinction ... ction.html
_Some ... [IMO thousands of] years ago an asteroid crashed into the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico, triggering the extinction event that obliterated the dinosaurs and nearly extinguished all life on Earth. It struck with the same energy as 100 million atomic bombs, and left behind a 100-mile-wide scar known today as the Chicxulub crater.
_Now, a team of geophysicists has drilled into the gigantic cavity under the Gulf of Mexico, targeting a circular series of hills called a peak ring located at its center. What they discovered illustrates that powerful impacts can catapult materials buried deep in a planet’s crust much closer to its surface.
_“Chicxulub is the only crater on Earth with an intact peak ring that we can go sample, the next intact peak ring would be on the moon,” said Sean P. S. Gulick, a marine geophysicist from the University of Texas at Austin. “It’s ground zero of the Cretaceous extinction event.”
_Dr. Gulick ... led a team ... to drill into the Chicxulub crater. By drilling into stone beneath the ocean’s surface, they discovered that the peak rings were made of granite, which is usually found much deeper in Earth’s crust. They concluded that the asteroid impact was so strong it lifted sediment from the basement of Earth’s crust several miles up to its surface.
_“These rocks behaved like a fluid for a short period of time, ... a very dramatic process when [they] form a large crater.”
_... Their research could lend support to the dynamic collapse model theory, which suggests that the asteroid impact was so powerful it shocked the rocks deep in Earth’s crust and caused them to shoot up before collapsing down to the surface to produce peak rings....
_He said the theory may also explain how large craters found on the moon, Mercury and Venus formed.

_Notice that it says the granite rock that formed the crater's peak ring came from miles deep meltrock, if I understand correctly. I lived in New Hampshire for a few years and it has a lot of granite that appears to have formed by metamorphic heating that half-melted sedimentary strata. So that granite formed from sedimentary rock. I wonder if Chicxulub's peak ring could have formed that way. The article said it has pink granite. Online it says: Pink colored granite is a result of an abundance of potassium feldspar within the granite. I didn't notice pink granite in New Hampshire, but there seems to be some.

See: Large granite blocks on the New Hampshire USA seacoast ... 72400.html

See also: New Hampshire State Rock: Granite ... /rock.html
_This says the granite is igneous rock, but it looked to me like the granite there was formed by heating sedimentary rock. The strata are easily visible, but they're hard as granite. I assume the sedimentary rock of New England matamorphized due to horizontal compression, when the asteroid hit off the coast of East Africa. The shockwave went through the continent of Africa and compressed and heated strata that broke away from Africa in the new continent of North America in the New England area, which formed "impulse" mountain ranges there. That asteroid strike caused the Pangaea supercontinent breakup.

_The Chicxulub impact occurred after the Great Flood and before the Pangaea breakup. So Mexico and all of North and South America were likely still connected to Europe and Africa at that time. So the impact could have killed more animals than after the supercontinent broke up, because the land was all closer together before the breakup. The Younger Dryas event and the Saturn System breakup came last, after the Pangaea breakup.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:47 pm



I'd like to start a video channel to discuss the Saturn Theory and other Catastrophist themes. I presume a lot of readers here would be interested.

Can I get any volunteers to help launch it? I may start another thread here to discuss this.

I guess the best volunteers I could use would be:
1. anyone who could set up a channel for me
2. anyone who could help produce videos
3. anyone who'd like to discuss, plan and/or help find evidence

I'd like to have a website too, where the video transcripts and images (and particularly useful viewer comments) could be compiled into an online book or something like that.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:44 am


(That's according to Cardona, below, but Talbott said it broke up at the orbit of Venus. It probably started to break up at the asteroid belt and finished at the orbit of Venus, Saturn leaving first and Jupiter last.)

THOTH A Catastrophics Newsletter
VOL VI, No 1, Jan 15, 2002
_QUESTION: In your opinion, is there enough information in the mytho-historical record (or geological record) to discriminate between an interpretation of the Saturnian system coming from outside the [solar] system and the Saturnian system always being [before the Saturn system breakup] at the distance of the asteroid belt? If so, what do you accept as evidence?
_REPLY: This ties in with the manner in which the Cosmic Egg was seen to break. See here my article, "The Evolution of the Cosmogonic Egg," AEON III:5, pp. 52 ff., but especially p. 67.
_Here's a brief summary of the reference from pg. 52: ... "one consistent motif connected with [the myths of creation] ... concerns the universal, celestial, or cosmic egg. This motif is found scattered throughout the entire world -- Mircea Eliade has noted examples from Polynesia, India, Indonesia, Iran, Greece, Phoenecia, Latvia, Estonia, Finland, Africa, Central and South America." And from pg. 67: "As Talbott has already shown, the luminous gases expelled by the dislodged Venus slowly congealed into a circular band which expanded and was visually seen from Earth to surround the Saturnian orb. This band, or egg, ... was originally of a golden color. ... having glowed as a complete circle for an ambiguous length of time, the band's illumination changed so that, while half of it remained a brilliant gold, the other half changed to a lesser silver light -- or half bright and half dark, as other sources inform us. What this means is that the position of the ring must have changed with respect to the present, but still somehow hidden, Sun."
_Also, had the Saturnian system always existed at the distance of the asteroid belt, the crescent would always have been there, and we have deduced from the mytho-historical record that it had not.
_Also, had the crescent always been there, its circling around the Saturnian orb would have enabled man to tell the passage of time, which the ancients themselves tell us they could not. See here my paper, "The Beginning of Time," in same issue of AEON, pp. 71 ff.
_... Also, had the Saturnian system always been at the distance of the asteroid belt, Venus, Mars, and Earth would have long been within the clutches of the Sun's attracting power, and the planets would not have been able to sustain their linear stacking [trailing linearly behind Saturn like the SL9 comet fragments].
_The asteroid belt is therefore best understood as the GENERAL locality in which the system broke up, having come within that orbital distance from outside the Sun's domain of influence.


_In this recent post, viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&p=5986#p5955 , one of that post's section titles was [POSSIBLE DATING OF THE BABEL CATACLYSM & SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP] and another was [BABEL = DISPERSAL OF GODS AFTER DEATH OF OSIRIS/SATURN]. Putting two and two together, I should have said [POSSIBLE DATING OF THE BABEL CATACLYSM, WHICH WAS THE SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP]. The former section explained that the inner planets from Saturn inward were conjunct in 1953 BC. So that could be when the breakup started.
_In the short article by Cardona above he said the Saturn system came from beyond the asteroid belt and possibly from beyond the solar system. As it moved closer to the Sun the system broke up at the asteroid belt. The present order of the orbits of the planets starting at the Sun are Mercury, Venus, Mars, asteroid belt, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune etc. It probably took several years for the system to reach the asteroid belt after crossing Jupiter's present orbit. That's when Saturn reached its perigee and then started moving out to its present orbit, presumably with the help of dust that helped circularize its orbit. The dust gradually dispersed afterward. The system apparently didn't completely break up at that point. It just started to break up, by Saturn leaving. But Jupiter continued moving inward toward the Sun until it reached the orbit of Mars at least. Otherwise, life on Earth would likely have frozen to death, without the heat from Jupiter. I think myths suggest that Jupiter took Saturn's place, but I don't know for how long. But Earth probably would have reached the Sun's habitable zone when it go to the orbit of Mars. So Jupiter may have broken away at that point. The inner planets then broke away to their present orbits, again circularizing due to dust in space from Saturn novas.


- During the Great Flood (when Saturn went nova) the Saturn system may have been near the present orbit of Uranus, maybe around 3000 BC.
- During the Pangaea supercontinent breakup we may have been within the present orbit of Saturn, maybe around 2500 BC.
- During the Younger Dryas event we may have been just outside the present orbit of Jupiter, maybe around 2345 BC.
- During the Saturn system breakup we seem to have been at the asteroid belt, maybe in 1953 BC.
- Around the time of the Sodom and Gamorrah cataclysm, when we were around the orbit of Mars(?), Jupiter may have left the system, maybe in 1740 BC, according to Charles Chandler's estimate at (although I said above that Jupiter may have escorted Venus to its present orbit before moving out to its own present orbit). Interestingly, Cardona had an article in Kronos magazine in the 1980s, I think, suggesting that the Sodom & Gamorrah cataclysm was caused by a close approach of Jupiter's moon, Io, which has sulfur. The Bible said fire & brimstone rained down on those cities & brimstone is likely sulfur. If Io was nearby, so was Jupiter.
- Periodic cataclysms continued to occur, but on a smaller scale, mainly around the time of Halloween and the end of June. Clube & Napier have documented some examples, I believe.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:11 pm


See the important new post above from yesterday too.


[I just found this article online. I have a few excerpts to post now and I hope to post more next week or so.]

Mysteries Of The Ancient Past [Excerpts] ... r_djvu.txt
_An extinction-level cataclysm occurred on our planet between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago. This event was global in its consequences and it affected mankind profoundly.
_In particular it must be considered as a reasonable hypothesis that worldwide myths of a golden age brought to an end by flood and fire are true, and that an entire episode of the human story was rubbed out in those 1,200 cataclysmic years between 12,800 and 11,600 years ago — an episode not of unsophisticated hunter-gatherers but of advanced civilization. Did that civilization, if it existed at all, leave any traces that we might still be able to identify today, despite the passage of so much time? And, if so, does its loss have any real significance for us? This book is an attempt to answer those questions.
__[COMMENT: The proper dating of the cataclysm is more likely between 4,000 and 5,000 years ago.]
_Gobekli Tepe was ... undoubtedly a platform for the distribution of knowledge and innovation. Including knowledge of large-scale stone working and knowledge of agriculture.
_Gobekli Tepe that starts out perfect at the beginning and then slowly devolves....
_Archaeology can no more explain that than it can explain why the earliest monuments, art, sculptures, hieroglyphs, mathematics, medicine, astronomy and architecture of Ancient Egypt are perfect at the beginning without any traces of evolution from simple to sophisticated.
_How does a complex civilization spring full-blown into being[?]
_The answer [is] ... Egyptian civilization was not a “development,” it was a legacy.[4]
_The T-shaped pillars [of Gobekli Tepe] are certainly anthropomorphic, yet often with animals depicted on them, perhaps telling us stories connected with the T-shaped beings. We cannot be sure, of course, but I think they represent divine beings.
__[COMMENT: Yes, the same "divine beings", i.e. planets, of the Saturn Theory. See below.]
_There’s something else that interests me ... about the imagery on this ancient pillar from Gobekli Tepe. ... The vulture ... the disc ... and in the next register above the vulture, that weird row of bags, with their curved handles ... Bags. Handbags.
_[In] Fingerprints of the Gods ... the photo sections ... the second section is devoted to Mexico and, on the fifth page, I find ... image number 33 with the caption: “Man in Serpent sculpture from the Olmec site of La Venta.” I.t’s Santha’s photograph, taken way back in 1992 or 1993, of an impressive relief carved on a slab of solid granite measuring about 1.2 meters (4 feet) wide and 1.5 meters (5 feet) high. The relief features what is believed to be the earliest representation of the Central American deity whom the Maya (a later civilization than the Olmecs) would call Kukulkan or Gucumatz, and who was known by the even later Aztecs as Quetzalcoatl. All three names mean “Feathered Serpent” (sometimes translated as “Plumed Serpent”) and it is such a serpent, decorated with a prominent feathered crest on its head, that we see here. Its powerful body coils sinuously around the outer edge of the relief, cradling the figure of a man who is depicted in a seated position as though he is reaching for pedals with his feet. In his right hand he is holding what I described at the time as “a small, bucket-shaped object.”[14]
_I return to Santha’s images from Enclosure D at Gobekli Tepe and am immediately able to confirm what I suspected. The three bags on the pillar closely resemble the “bucket-shaped” object from La Venta in Mexico. The same curved handle is there in both cases and the profile of the “bags” and of the “bucket” — slightly wider at the bottom than at the top — is also very similar.
_The “Man in Serpent” relief from La Venta is thought by archaeologists to date to the period between the tenth and the sixth centuries BC[15] — about nine thousand years younger than the imagery from Gobekli Tepe — so how could there possibly be a connection?
_I check the index for the name Oannes, turn to Chapter Eleven, and find another figure of a man carrying a bag or bucket. I hadn’t noticed the resemblance between it and “Man in Serpent” before but it’s obvious to me now. Although not absolutely identical, both bags have the same curved handle that is also depicted on the Gobekli Tepe pillar. Quickly I scan through the report I wrote twenty years earlier. Oannes was a civilizing hero revered by all the ancient cultures of Mesopotamia. He was said to have appeared there in the remotest antiquity and to have taught the inhabitants: the skills necessary for writing and for doing mathematics and for all sorts of knowledge: how to build cities, found temples ... make laws ... determine borders and divide land, also how to plant seeds and then to harvest their fruits and vegetables. In short [he] taught men all those things conducive to a civilized life.[16]
_[A] Babylonian priest called Berossos who wrote in the third century ... [said] Oannes did not do his work alone but was supposedly the leader of a group of beings known as the Seven Apkallu — the “Seven Sages” — who were said to have lived “before the flood” (a cataclysmic global deluge features prominently in many Mesopotamian traditions, including those of Sumer, Akkad, Assyria and Babylon). Alongside Oannes, these sages are portrayed as bringers of civilization...
_[The rivers of] Mesopotamia ... have their headwaters in the same Taurus mountain range of southeastern Turkey where Gobekli Tepe is situated.
_[Online I find] many ... reliefs from Assyria, a culture that thrived in Mesopotamia from approximately 2500 BC to about 600 BC. ... Often they show bearded men holding bags or buckets which closely resemble those depicted on the Gobekli Tepe pillar [etc]....
_A good number of the images show ... a birdman with a hooked beak exactly like the hooked beak of the therianthrope on the Gobekli Tepe pillar.
_[J]ust like Oannes at the head of the Apkallu ... Quetzalcoatl traveled with his own brotherhood of sages and magicians.
__[COMMENT: What Hancock doesn't seem to have considered is that Gobekli Tepe and the cataclysm were of the same time period as early Mesopotamian, Olmec and Mayan civilizations, about 4,000 years ago.]
_[There's some discussion of Gunung Padang and then discussion of some native American cataclysm traditions.]

_[ I]t became increasingly obvious to me that the Younger Dryas had been a global cataclysm in every meaningful sense of the term. It wasn’t until 2013, however, when Randall [Carlson] made the case to me that North America, and particularly the Channeled Scablands, had stood at the epicenter of that cataclysm....
_[There's a] growing body of evidence that 12,800 years ago a giant comet traveling on an orbit that took it through the inner solar system broke up into multiple fragments, and that many of these fragments, some more than a mile (2.4 kilometers) in diameter, hit the earth. It is believed that North America was the epicenter of the resulting cataclysm with several of the largest impacts on the North American ice cap causing floods and tidal waves and throwing a vast cloud of dust into the upper atmosphere that enshrouded the earth, preventing the sun’s rays from reaching the surface and thus initiating the sudden, mysterious global deep freeze that geologists call the Younger Dryas.
_[Randall said] All over the flood areas you see this six, seven, eight-foot thick layer of loess — and clearly it rained down out of the atmosphere. ... The legends of Viracocha. Wasn’t there something there about a black rain?
_[Graham said] There was, absolutely. A thick, black rain. It’s pretty much universal to the flood myths....
_[R] It has a kind of vertical structure. Most theories suggest that it’s windborne, but the vertical structure is inconsistent with that. I’m developing an idea that it’s actually both water and windborne, because I think that the final rainout after the comet hit the ice cap was essentially a rainout of mud. There would have been a huge injection of superheated water into the stratosphere — filthy, particle-laden water — which would have then spread rather like the debris cloud of a nuclear explosion and the end result would undoubtedly have been a very intense, and prolonged rainout.
[Possibly to be Continued.]

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Fri Nov 26, 2021 2:06 pm


_On Tuesday last week I found that Saturn may have left the Saturn system in about 1953 BC per this post:
_This Wednesday I found that the Saturn system possibly reached the asteroid belt between Mars' & Jupiter's present orbits, when Saturn left & went to its present orbit. So Earth and the other planets may have been in the asteroid belt when the system started to break apart, per this post:
_Yesterday I found that the Younger Dryas impacts likely occurred between 4 & 5 thousand years ago, instead of as conventionally dated to 12 thousand years ago, per this post:

Yesterday I was posting excerpts from Hancock's 2015 online article. Following are some more excerpts and my comments.

Mysteries Of The Ancient Past (Continued) ... r_djvu.txt
_[Graham] spectacular features of Camas Prairie in western Montana ... [look] like a series of colossal dunes ... across the flat yellow floor of an elliptical basin, twelve miles long and ten miles wide, in the midst of the Rocky Mountains. ... Instead they are giant current ripples [of solid rock?], some more than fifty feet high and three hundred feet long, formed at the end of the Ice Age when Camas Prairie was part of the bed of Glacial Lake Missoula and lay under about 1,400 feet of water.[1] Geologists are agreed that the ripples were shaped by powerful currents set in motion when the lake drained catastrophically.[2]
_[Randall] I have no doubt there were dozens of jokulhlaups out of Lake Missoula. Some were even pretty big. My point, though, is that none of them were of sufficient size to cause the spectacular flood damage that we’ve seen in the Channeled Scablands. That was done by an event orders of magnitude bigger than anything Lake Missoula could provide. So yes, the lake was dammed by ice in the Clark Fork valley, just as the gradualists maintain, and yes, that ice dam did break frequently over a period of a few thousand years, say from 15,000 years ago down to about 13,000 years ago. But the amount of water released in these periodic floods was minuscule, just a drop in the bucket compared to the final event — in which Lake Missoula was also involved, of course, but definitely not as the main culprit.
_[Graham] [ It] had to do with the impact of the Younger Dryas comet. ... But not just one impact. Multiple impacts. I’m guessing as many as four of the fragments — each of them maybe half a mile across, maybe bigger — hit the Cordilleran and Laurentide ice caps in a sort of scatter gun effect and caused just a massive amount of instantaneous melting. The meltwater was everywhere, in enormous quantities. Naturally some of it cascaded into Lake Missoula, filling it up suddenly and causing it to burst its ice dam, thus adding its contents to the much bigger floods that were already sweeping down from the north.
_The [YD Impact] team says the agent of destruction was probably a comet, since the key sediment layer lacks both the high nickel and iridium levels characteristic of asteroid impacts.[9] ... Levels of the apparent extraterrestrial debris ... are highest at the Gainey archaeological site in Michigan, just beyond the southern reach of North America’s primary ice sheet 12,900 years ago. Moreover, levels decrease the further you go from Gainey, suggesting that the comet blew up largely over Canada ...[10]
_[Their] proposal for their comet was that it was a conglomeration of impactors including one that might have been as much as 4 kilometers (2.5 miles) in diameter.[1] Furthermore, that 4-kilometer object would itself have been just one among multiple fragments resulting from the earlier disintegration — while still in orbit — of a giant comet up to 100 kilometers or more in diameter.[14] Many of the fragments of the parent comet (including some of great size as we’ll see in Chapter Nineteen) remained in orbit. Those that hit the earth at the onset of the Younger Dryas underwent further explosive fragmentation (accompanied by powerful airbursts that would themselves have had cataclysmic effects), as they entered the atmosphere over Canada.
_[T]he authors envisaged: a devastating, high-temperature shock wave with extreme overpressure, followed by underpressure, resulting in intense winds traveling across North America at hundreds of kilometers an hour, accompanied by powerful, impact-generated vortices. In addition, whether single or multiple objects collided with the earth, a hot fireball would have immersed the region near the impacts ... At greater distances the re-entry of high-speed, superheated ejecta would have induced extreme wildfires which would have decimated forests and grasslands, destroying the food supplies of herbivores and producing charcoal, soot, toxic fumes and ash.[17]
_[A] huge plume of water vapor from the melted ice cap that would have been cast into the upper atmosphere, combined with immense quantities of dust and debris
_Palaeolithic extinctions and the Taurid Complex. Intersection with the debris of a large (50-100 km) short-period comet during the Upper Palaeolithic provides a satisfactory explanation for the catastrophe of celestial origin which has been postulated to have occurred around 12,900 years ago and which presaged a return to Ice Age conditions of about 1,300 years duration. The Taurid Complex appears to be the debris of this erstwhile comet; it includes about 19 of the brightest near-earth objects.[2]
_The presence of copious monazite in the carbonaceous coatings is considered part of the incoming ejecta.... [Since] thermally disrupted and fragmented quartz and feldspar ... could only occur with temperatures in excess of 900 degrees centigrade, the event here [is] interpreted to be of cosmogenic origin....
_[The team] found a large platinum (Pt) anomaly at the YDB.... Circumstantial evidence hints at an extraterrestrial source ... {perhaps} a metal impactor with an unusual composition....[32]
_The 12,800-year-old Syrian glass contains a range of minerals that melted at extraordinarily high temperatures [over 1500°C].
_Clube and Napier’s work, with important contributions also from [others] ... has raised the chilling possibility that the Younger Dryas comet was itself only a fragment of a much larger, giant comet — once perhaps as much as 100 kilometers in diameter — which entered the inner solar system about 30,000 years ago and was captured by the sun and flung into an earth-crossing orbit. It remained relatively intact for the next 10,000 years. Then around 20,000 years ago it underwent a massive “fragmentation event” somewhere along its orbit that transformed it from a single deadly and potentially world-killing object into multiple objects grading down from 5 kilometers to 1 kilometer or less in diameter, each and every one of which would still, in its own right, be capable of causing a global cataclysm. 23
__[COMMENT: Those dates are plausible, because they are based on calculations on astronomical objects, instead of on the sedimentary rock record on Earth.]
_The evidence is that it was several fragments on this scale that hit the earth 12,800 years ago, causing the Younger Dryas, 24 that we crossed the debris stream of the comet again 11,600 years ago with equally dramatic effects that ended the Younger Dryas[25]....
_The Taurid meteor stream ... is the ... best-known product of the ongoing fragmentation of the original giant comet. The stream sprawls completely across the earth’s orbit — a distance of more than 300 million kilometers — cutting it in two places so that the planet must pass through it twice a year: in late June and early July (when the “shooting stars” are not visible because they are encountered in daylight) and again from late October into November when a spectacular “Halloween firework” display is put on.[28] Since the earth travels more than 2.5 million kilometers along its orbital path every day, and since each passage takes approximately twelve days, it is obvious that the Taurid stream is at least 30 million kilometers “wide” or “thick.” Indeed, what the earth encounters during these two periods is best envisaged as a sort of “tube” or “pipe” of fragmented debris — a bit like a huge doughnut.
_the Taurid stream is filled to overflowing with other much more massive material, sometimes visible, sometimes shrouded in clouds of dust, and all of it flying through space at tremendous velocities and intersecting the earth’s orbit twice a year
_Among the massive, deadly members of the Taurid family are Comet Encke, which is estimated to have a diameter of around 5 kilometers [and] between one and two hundred asteroids of more than a kilometer diameter.... It seems clear that we are looking at the debris from the breakup of an extremely large object. The disintegration, or sequence of disintegrations, must have taken place within the last twenty or thirty thousand years, as otherwise the asteroids would have spread around the inner planetary system and be no longer recognizable as a stream.[29]
_In addition to Comet Encke, there are at least two other comets in the stream — Rudnicki, also thought to be about five kilometers in diameter, and a mysterious object named Oljiato, which has a diameter of about 1.5 kilometers.[30] Initially believed to be an asteroid, this extremely dark, earth-crossing projectile sometimes shows signs, visible in the telescope, of volatility and outgassing and most astronomers now regard it as an inert comet that is in the process of waking up. 31 Comet Encke itself is known to have been inert for a long period, until it suddenly flared into life and was first seen by astronomers in 1876.[32] It is now understood to alternate regularly, in extended cycles, between its inert and volatile states.
__[COMMENT: I showed in this recent post viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=585#p5989 that Saturn seems to have left the Saturn system when it entered the asteroid belt and the rest of the inner planets of the system broke away as it continued inward to the orbit of Venus. The asteroid belt appears to be the remnants of a small planet. Charles Chandler calls it Ceres, the name of the largest asteroid. He thinks the planet was broken up by a collision. See . Maybe a former moon of Saturn collided with it. Maybe all of the meteor streams, including the Taurids, formed from that collision. Did Saturn flare at that time? Some of the Younger Dryas impact debris might have come from a Saturn flare. Wait a minute. In that same post above about the Saturn system breaking up at the asteroid belt, I said the date may have been about 1953 BC, the time of the last major conjunction of the planets. But the Younger Dryas event was about 2345 BC. That's 4 centuries apart. The system had only gotten to near the orbit of Jupiter in 2345 BC, I guess. And if the Taurid stream is 20-30 thousand years old, it would have formed long before the Saturn system arrived. I'll have to rethink this.]

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