Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Beyond the boundaries of established science an avalanche of exotic ideas compete for our attention. Experts tell us that these ideas should not be permitted to take up the time of working scientists, and for the most part they are surely correct. But what about the gems in the rubble pile? By what ground-rules might we bring extraordinary new possibilities to light?
Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:05 pm

70102

SATURN SYSTEM BREAKUP 2400 BC?

I'm guessing that the excerpts about Ra above [viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=540#p5288 ] are from the Pyramid Texts. Wikipedia says: "The Pyramid Texts are the oldest ancient Egyptian funerary texts, dating to the late Old Kingdom. ... The oldest of the texts have been dated to c. 2400–2300 BC."

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jul 06, 2021 3:57 pm

71737

DATE OF SATURN'S DEPARTURE: CLUES FROM FISCHER'S MODEL VS. CATASTROPHISM.COM

RE FISHCER'S MODEL
I recently discussed Mike Fischer's Shock Dynamics model in this post: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&sid=e8695ee24fb ... =540#p5172
I showed this as his model of catastrophic events, except that he doesn't show the YD event. The dates are my own estimates.
C1) X millennia BC: Formation of Earth;
C2) Y millennia BC: Formation of Pangaea & the Moon (via impact);
C3) 3-4,000 BC: Great Flood (with impacts);
C4) 2,700-4,000 BC: Chicxulub impact;
C5) 2,600-3,500 BC: Pangaea Breakup (with impacts);
C6) 2,300-3,000 BC: Younger Dryas Event (with impacts)
_Regarding C2, the Moon apparently wasn't visible from Earth until the Saturn system broke up and the stars became visible. So the Moon was either on a wider orbit, or it was captured around the time of the breakup.
_I've been looking for evidence of when the Saturn system broke up. I think it was around the time of the YD event, c. 2300 BC.
_Ev Cochrane doesn't seem to consider Jupiter as part of the former Saturn configuration, although Dave Talbott did. I don't find anything on Jupiter on Ev's site, https://www.maverickscience.com/ . Strickling's article excerpted below mentions Jupiter, but I think Ev said Zeus was Mars instead of Jupiter.

RE CATASTROPHISM.COM
(I'm trying to get clues about the dating of the Saturn configuration breakup from some of the literature there.)
CARDONA:
The Demands Of The Saturnian Configuration Theory
http://rogerswebsite.com/ah/TheDemandso ... Theory.pdf
_Saturn's Departure. The theory demands that somewhere in the record, Saturn's removal from Earth's proximity should be encountered.
_Dionysus of Halicarnassus ... declared that Kronos [Saturn] ruled on this very earth [210].
_[We also] find it stated in an Orphic fragment that Saturn dwelt openly on earth among men [209].
_The warriors of Quetzalcoatl [Saturn] died from the cold just before the god took off on his serpent raft to be seen no more [205] ... at the very time when Earth ... was deluged with the ice that ushered in the so-called Ice Age.
_In an Egyptian myth, Ra [Saturn] is made to say: Weary indeed are my limbs and they fail me. I shall go forth. Henceforth my dwelling place must be in the heavens. No longer will I reign upon the earth. '[206] and: I have determined to cause myself to be uplifted into the sky, to join the blessed gods and to renounce rule of the world. ' [207]. Then Ra raised himself from the back of the goddess Nut into the sky [208].
_When Ra removed himself into the sky, darkness came on 'and Ra was borne through darkness' [211].
_The answer to this mystery is that the sun of night [Saturn], which had ruled Earth due to its proximity [on the north polar mountain], had now removed itself into the blackness of space. True night, as we now know it, finally descended upon the world and the stars, which could not have been seen as long as the Saturnian sun of night was shining down on Earth, appeared in all their brilliance for the first time.
_Ra went on his way through the realms which are above, and these he divided and set in order. He spake creating words, and called into existence the field of Aalu, and there he caused to assemble a multitude of beings which are beheld in heaven, even the stars. [212].

STRICKLING:
(He said Jupiter was the lesser light, but Saturn seems more likely)
The Lesser Light [Journals] [Catastrophism & Ancient History]
_From: Catastrophism and Ancient History III:2 (July 1981) Home | Issue Contents INTERACTION The Lesser Light James E. Strickling
_And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night. - Genesis 1:16 ... [However] a completely literal interpretation of this verse might indicate a genuine source of light, rather than a reflective body such as the moon - a soft light that might indeed rule the night. ... But whatever the identity, evidence indeed favors something other than the moon.
_Heavenly Inspiration. ... Another common theme in myth and legend from all parts of the world finds its source in the heavens - from a bygone age when Saturn and Jupiter by their proximity crowded our sky. We read in the ancient chronicles that "Vanquished by the might of Zeus [Jupiter], Cronus [Saturn] was driven from the sky and cast to the very depths of the universe and there enchained in the region which stretches beneath the earth and the fruitless sea. . ." 2 In the words of Hesiod (8th Century B.C.) : ". . . [Zeus] was reigning in heaven, himself holding the lightning and glowing thunderbolt, when he had overcome by might his father Cronus. . . ." Jupiter's fate was later realized as the once brilliant planetary disc shrank to a pin point of light, his glory removed from the sky of earth forever. The Saturn-Jupiter succession and Jupiter's ultimate ____departure are colorfully preserved by the Tupinamba Indians of Brazil. "The first [great hero] was Nonan [Saturn] who was the creator of mankind, and then destroyed the world with flood and fire; after whom came Maire-Monan [Jupiter] who is often confused with his predecessor. He had the power of changing men and animals [a cometary retinue] into other forms in order to punish them for their sins. . . . [H]e aroused the anger of men by his metamorphoses, so that they decided to kill him. For that end they arranged a festival during which Maire-Monan had to jump over three blazing bonfires. "He jumped the first but fainted above the second and was burned up. His bursting produced thunder, while the flames became lightning. Then he was carried up to heaven, where he became a star."3

TALBOTT:
Thoth Vol IV, No 4: Feb 29, 2000 [Journals] [Thoth]
_The celestial serpent-dragon takes the form of a great storm or whirlwind, breathes fire and smoke, battles against the gods, and ushers in a period of universal darkness. But these are only a few of the pervasive themes. When, for example, did this chaos monster appear in the sky? It appeared specifically during the break between world ages--following the death or ____departure of the Universal Monarch, when the Golden Age collapsed--and prior to the renewal of the world. Appearance of the Babylonian Tiamat is synonymous with the flight of the original sovereign An. The Uraeus serpent rages in the sky as a symbol of Re's loss of power. The dethroning of Kronos, founder of the Golden Age, immediately precedes the attack of Typhon.

I said recently that the dating of the Pyramid Texts at 2300 BC or so seems likely to be the best clue so far, but I haven't found any of the catastrophist authors mentioning them yet as stating that the gods departed at that time. I hope Ev will provide his opinion soon.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:11 am

73490

SEARCHES RELATING TO MIKE FISCHER'S & EV COCHRANE'S MODELS

Following are links to seach results I've been working on for a few weeks now.

DEPARTURE (for when Saturn system broke up): http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/msg315/#msg315
MOUNTAIN (for time of Shock Dynamics): http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=316
MOSES (for evidence of Moses myth): http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=317
TURQUOISE (for Ev's new book on Turquoise Sun): http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=319
BC --- 1 (9500-2500 BC, for when Saturn system broke up): http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=322
BC --- 2 (2500-687 BC, for same): http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=323
DEPARTURE; PYRAMID TEXTS http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=325
ENHEDUANNA (Saturn departure) + ANCIENT MEANINGS/PUNS (cuttingthroughthefog.com) http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=326
PREDYNASTIC (Saturn departure etc) http://funday.createaforum.com/x/1-147/?message=327

_I searched on "Departure" to find where authors discussed when the planets departed from the Polar Configuration.
_I searched on "Mountain" to find where authors discussed when mountains were first uplifted. Mike's model says it was centuries after the Great Flood. Most Creationists seem to say it was during the Great Flood. Both say mountain uplift was due to rapid continental drift. Mike's model for the cause of rapid continental drift seems way more sensible and thorough than any other that I've heard of.
_I searched on "Moses" to find if authors have discussed Moses being a myth, since Ev says that.
_I searched on "Turquoise" to find authors discussing turquoise, since Ev's new book title would seem to suggest that Saturn had a turquoise color for a while.
_I searched on "BC", "Departure; Pyramid Texts", "Enheduanna" and "Predynastic" to find more clues about when the planets departed from the Saturn Configuration.
_I look forward to checking out these 3 sources from the last link next: Forum [Journals] [SIS Review], The Bedrock of Myth [Articles], and Evolution from Space [Articles].

WARM ANCIENT ARCTIC
In my Major Sci News post yesterday at viewtopic.php?f=5&p=5376#p5376 I copied one article title as "large herbivores grazed on grass year round in the Arctic zone during the last Ice Age", which was a sentence in the article. I added to the title that it was "[because of Saturn's heat as the pole star]". The article says it may have been due to a pole shift, but I think pole shifts are unlikely, since planets are so massive.

ANCIENT ADVANCED TECH
Last week this video, "The Great Floods Submerged Ruins" at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDL80tufYwc was interesting, discussing an antenna-like object found over 12,000 feet deep on the ocean floor near Antarctica, possible evidence of ancient advanced technology.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jul 13, 2021 6:04 pm

73903

PREVIOUS CATACLYSM DATES

I started doing major research on Catastrophism almost 6 years ago. On Saturday, Oct 31, 2015, I posted the following, but edited, at http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpB ... 25#p108920

[2244 BC OERA LINDA BOOK] ... An ancient history book, the Oera Linda Boek, dating primarily from AD 803, but added to for 500 years, bears this postscript: “written in Liuwert (Ljuwert) in the 3,499th year after Atland (Atlantis) sank, or 1256, the year of the Christian reckoning.” This historian placed the sinking of Atlantis in 2244 BC (Alec Maclellan, The Lost World of Agharti. 1982, p. 186).

[TOLTECS] WHAT THE TOLTECS REMEMBERED ABOUT HISTORY: In the sixteenth century, the native Mexican chronicler, Ixtilxochitl in his Relaciones penned a history based on all available pre-Conquest records and legends. ... The Flood came “after the world had existed for 1,716 years” (Francis Hitching, World Atlas of Mysteries. 1978, p.165). This is only a 60 year variation from the figure given in the King James Bible. (Genesis chapter 5)

[2345 BC BIBLE] DATE OF THE FLOOD - ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE RECORD: We start from a known date in history, the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar in 586 BC. [Make that 399 BC per Dating2 file.] add the years of the kings of Judah after Solomon which totalled 345. 586 + 345 = 931 BC. Solomon reigned for 40 years, his first year was 970 BC. In the fourth year of Solomon’s reign he began to build the house of the Lord (1 Kings 6:1) = 967 BC, the 480th year from the Exodus. 967 + 480 = 1446. From Abraham’s call to sacrifice Isaac until the Exodus was 430 years. The portion of this sojourning spent in Egypt was only 260 years, from 1706 to 1446 BC. The beginning and ending dates of the Great Flood was [1446 + 970 + 931 + 586 = 2345] around 2345 to 2344 BC.

[2188 BC] EGYPT: Egypt’s monuments themselves do not begin their records before the 19th dynasty. The Byzantine chronicler Constantinus Manasses wrote that the State of Egypt had already lasted 1663 years, [since] 2188 BC. Egypt was anciently known as the land of Khem (i.e. Ham [son of Noah]). Menes and Hermes were two of Ham’s sons. HERMES (CUSH) WAS FOUNDER OF EGYPT’S RELIGION.

[2344 BC GREAT PYRAMID] FLOOD DATE ALSO DEFINED: The Flood ended in 2344 BC. The Great Pyramid independently confirms this date (Stewart, The Mystery of the Great Pyramid, pp 17-19). The star group Aquarius is featured in the astronomy of the Pyramid. Ancient peoples associated AQUARIUS with the waters of the GREAT FLOOD. The pyramid measurements incorporate the length of the new, post-Flood 365¼ day year, and NOT the pre-Flood 360 day year.
-The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Roman, Mayan, Indian and Egyptian calendars were 360 days long. But later, every nation changed its calendar.

[2345 BC SCIENCE MAGAZINE] Something Hit the Earth (See http://newgeology.us)
AXIS RECOVERY (4,355 YEARS): summer solstices at Stonehenge, Amen Ra, Eodoxus show an exponential curve of recovery of the earth’s axis after a sudden change. The earth’s axis had once been almost upright, but it had suddenly changed to a 26½ degrees tilt, from which it had been wobbling back to its present mean tilt of 23½ degrees (Science Magazine, May 15, 1970). Dodwell concluded that something "struck" the earth at that time, 2345 BC.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Jul 18, 2021 3:32 am

74853

CATACLYSM DATES & SOME ANALYSIS

In my last post I listed 6 sources that indicate that a global cataclysm occurred within 3 centuries before 2,000 BC.

2188 BC EGYPT: A Byzantinian said Egypt existed since that year, apparently not long after a Great Flood.
2244 BC ATLANTIS: The OERA LINDA BOOK said Atlantis sank that year.
2285 BC? GLOBAL FLOOD: The TOLTECS said a Great Flood occurred then.
2344 BC GLOBAL FLOOD: The GREAT PYRAMID indicates a Great Flood occurred that year.
2345 BC GLOBAL FLOOD: The BIBLE says the Great Flood occurred then.
2345 BC ASTEROID IMPACT: Astronomer George Dodwell said in SCIENCE MAGAZINE that an asteroid Hit the Earth at that time.

I was hoping Dodwell's finding would provide the best evidence for a date, but the following paper says it, and especially his dating, is not well supported by the data. On the other hand, legends indicate that something violently shook the Earth and greatly changed its motion in ancient times. I'll show the conclusion from the paper against Dodwell first, then the legends which support the sources above.

An Analysis of the Dodwell Hypothesis
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... ypothesis/
_Conclusion
_I have examined the methodology that Dodwell employed in developing his hypothesis that the earth was subjected to a catastrophic change in its tilt in 2345 BC, an alleged catastrophe that the earth has recovered from as recently as 1850. In a few instances I have had difficulty in replicating Dodwell’s results. In other cases Dodwell was a bit overzealous in extracting data and uncritically relied upon secondary sources. With no discussion of errors in the observations, it appears that he treated his data with near infinite precision. Dodwell’s hypothesis is highly dependent upon early measurements of the obliquity of the ecliptic that are not supported by Egyptologists. From these considerations, I consider the Dodwell hypothesis untenable. Despite these defects, a skeptical analysis that I have conducted here has left a few data points that are difficult to square with the conventional understanding of the obliquity of the ecliptic over time. While I cannot rule out that in the past the earth’s tilt was altered by some yet unknown mechanism, neither can I confirm it. The most reliable ancient data do not demand the sort of catastrophic change in the earth’s tilt with a gradual recovery that Dodwell maintained, so there is great doubt that this alleged event happened. If such an event actually happened, we cannot fix the date of that event with any certainty. Creationists are discouraged from embracing the Dodwell hypothesis.

Surprise Witness: What Really Happened During the Flood
https://books.google.com/books?id=JKLfy ... th&f=false
p15 The tilting remembered
_This tilting of the earth's axis is handed down with teror-struck impressiveness in the traditions of many nations. A few examples will suffice.
-- Eskimos: The earth tilted violently before the Flood began.
-- Mexico: "The earth shook to its foundations. The sky sank lower towards the north. The sun, moon and stars changed their motions. The earth fell to pieces, and the waters in its bosom uprushed with violence and overflowed.... The system of the universe was totally disordered. Man had rebelled against the high gods. The sun went into eclipse, the planets altered their courses."6
-- China: The earth tilted violently before the Deluge. The sky suddenly began to fall northward. The heavenly bodies changed their courses after the earth had been shaken.
-- Egypt: The earth turned over.7
-- Greenland (natives): When the Great Flood came, the earth capsized like a boat.
-- The Polynesians and Hindus also related this phenomenon.
_In Tractate Sanhedrin of the Talmud it is said, "Seven days before the deluge, the Holy One changed the primeval order and the sun rose in the west and set in the east."
_Certainly, if our planet's axis had been tilted, the sky [or the stars etc] would appear to have moved in relation to the earth.

Following are some other sources that discussed Dodwell's model, but I haven't read them. I assume that the two sources above are the most relevant and useful, at least regarding Dodwell.

An Evaluation of Astronomical Young-Age Determination
https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/ ... ar-system/

"IT'S A YOUNG WORLD AFTER ALL"
https://creationism.org/books/ackerman/ ... Chap11.htm

George Dodwell
https://atlantipedia.ie/samples/tag/george-dodwell/

FOUR EVENTS
Remember, it appears that there were at least 4 global cataclysms in the last 5 or 6 thousand years, according to Mike Fischer of http://newgeology.us/
1. The Great Flood at the time of the supercontinent Pangaea;
2. The Chicxulub Impact in Mexico during or after the Great Flood;
3. The Pangaea Impact that broke up the supercontinent several centuries after the Great Flood;
4. The Younger Dryas Event that melted the North American Ice Sheet.
Major flooding likely occurred during each of those events, except for the Chicxulub impact (which probably only produced one tsunami). So that adds to the difficulty of making strong conclusions.

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:07 am

76507

I think the Flood of 2,300 or so BC was a Younger Dryas Flood, instead of the main Great Flood. The Great Flood was likely around 3,000 BC as I discussed before. Mike Fischer agrees more or less. I expect to get into that again before long. But the YD Flood is likely the time of the Saturn System breakup. After the 3,000 BC Great Flood seems to be when the Saturn System first became visible, possibly due to a Saturn flare-up that blew away some of Earth's atmosphere. So the following is evidence for the YD Flood and the Saturn System departure IMO.

DATE OF GREAT FLOOD IN THE GREAT PYRAMID
(by Jonathan Gray)
https://b-c-ing-u.com/architecture/grea ... lash-523a/
_In the 19th century, the Astronomer Royal of Scotland, Professor Piazzi Smyth, spent 6 months camped near the Great Pyramid.
_Smyth explored the Descending Passage which pointed upward to the sky on the pyramid’s northern face. He found that it was set at an angle of 26 deg. 18 min. 10 sec.
_The eminent Sir John Herschel had discovered that this Descending Passage pointed to a Constellation of stars known as Draconis (“The Dragon”). With careful astronomical calculation, Smyth now confirmed this.
_While in the Descending Passage, Smyth was excited to find two “Scored Lines”, which pointed upwards at right angles. These indicated to an astronomer to examine their direction in the sky.
_These “Scored Lines” were about 4 feet long. Smyth was amazed at their precision.
_Calculating carefully, he found that these “Scored Lines” pointed upwards, through the Pyramid, to the star Alcyone in the constellation [star cluster] known as “The Pleiades”.
_Alcyone was regarded as the PIVOT of the solar system, around which all other “fixed stars” appear to revolve [in ancient times?]. It was called “The Central One”.
_Professor Smyth made an exciting discovery. At the SAME TIME that the Descending Passage was pointing to the POLE Star (Alpha Draconis), these “Scored Lines” were pointing to Alcyone, the “PIVOT” star. That conjunction took place on September 22nd, 2144 B.C.
_Here, fixed into the pyramid’s construction, was a definite date – 2144 BC.
_In the absence of evidence to the contrary, we may now ask, could the “scored line” indicate 2144 BC as defining the EPOCH OF THE PYRAMID’S FOUNDATION?
_And now a remarkable fact comes into play. Tradition from the Euphrates region (Mesopotamia) seems to identify Alcyone with the ceremony of FOUNDATION-LAYING. This is significant when you discover that the Pyramid builders have been traced to a Euphratean origin.
_Furthermore, a researcher into ancient astronomy informs us that “Alaparos (the second of the ten antediluvian kings of Euphratean legend) is equated with Alcyone (Tauri).
_The Euphratean astronomical abbreviation of the Sign is Te or Tete, the highly abraded form of the Akkadian dimmena (‘foundationstone’) = Assyrian, timmenatimmentimme-timtemte (‘foundation’).
_The ‘Foundation’star (Temennu) is the Pleiad, or particularly Alcyone.” (Brown, Primitive Constellations, vol. 1, p.57)
_Was the pointer to Alcyone the “FOUNDATION Star” fixed in stone to record the date of the “FOUNDATION” of the Pyramid? A strong probability.
_The “scored line” defines actual observations at midnight of two successive Autumn Equinoxes, that of 2145 BC. and that of 2144 BC. These observations fix the astronomical zero for reckoning of days, as associated with midnight. They likewise define the commencement of the Pyramid’s solar year at the Autumnal Equinox.
__DATE OF THE GREAT FLOOD
_According to researcher Basil Stewart, the Egyptian “Book of the Dead”, suggested that the Ascending Passages would represent “years for inches” in the Pyramid. (Stewart, The Mystery of the Great Pyramid, pp 17-19)
_From the “Scored Lines” of 2144 BC, the passage was measured – until at 200 inches a dark granite plug was reached. Calculating on the “inch to the year” scale, this brought interesting results.
_If these 200 inches truly represented 200 years, then the conclusion was astonishing. Why? Because going back 200 years before 2144 BC takes us back to the date the Great Flood ended in 2344 BC!
_Had this dark plug been set in place to symbolize the darkness which came over the earth at that time?
_The star group Aquarius (“the Waterman”) was also found to be featur[ed] in the astronomy of the Pyramid. Ancient peoples associated AQUARIUS with the waters of the GREAT FLOOD.
_The accepted date for the ending of the Great Flood is 2344 BC. And – was it by coincidence or by design – the SAME “Scored Lines” that pointed to Alcyone the Foundation Star in 2144 BC, also pointed to the precise spot in the sky where AQUARIUS would have been directly overhead in 2344 BC!
_I am NOT saying that the Great Pyramid was already built before the Flood, with its “scored lines” standing there pointing to Aquarius while the Flood was on. No, the pyramid was built AFTER the Great Flood. (Its measurements incorporate the length of the new, post-Flood 365¼ day year, and NOT the pre-Flood 360 day year.) And the “scored lines” were positioned to commemorate an event that had already occurred.
__MYTHS OF GOOD & EVIL
_The ancient races believed that the devil (represented by a serpent, or dragon) had hijacked Planet Earth and entrapped mankind into rebellion against the Creator. They also recorded this understanding in the pictures of the constellations on their star maps.
_In 2144 BC, Thuban Alpha of the DRACONIS Constellation (representing the DRAGON, identified as representing SATAN) shone down the Descending Passage towards the so-called “Bottomless Pit” at the bottom. In the ancient world, Satan (Lucifer) was understood to have caused man’s descent to darkness, desolation and death.
_By contrast the “Scored Lines” pointed to the PLEIADES which symbolised a sweetening influence. Hence in the old book of Job we read:
_Can you bind the SWEET INFLUENCES of Pleiades? (Job 38:31)
_In ancient traditions, the Pleiades star group was associated with benign influence and blessedness.
_The influence of Evil, well illustrated by the Descending Passage with the Dragon Constellation shining down it, was depicted by writers such as Isaiah:
_How you are fallen, O Lucifer [The Dragon]. For you have said in your heart, ‘I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit ... in the sides of the NORTH.’ (Isaiah 14: 1215)
_Thuban Alpha, shining over it, is situated on the NORTH face of the Great Pyramid!
_Modern Astronomy has confirmed that midnight, September 22nd, 2144 BC, was the date when Alcyone of the “sweet” Pleiades was in position over the “Scored Lines”, just at the same time when Thuban-Alpha of the “evil” Draconis was shining down the Descending Passage to the “Pit”.
__CALENDAR CLUES TO THE AGE OF THE GREAT PYRAMID
_The ancient calendars had a 360 day year.
_The ancient Chinese, Babylonian, Roman, Mayan, Indian and Egyptian calendars were 360 days long.
_But later, every nation changed its calendar.
_Now let me ask you: Why would so many cultures in such widely scattered regions of the world all have made the very same mistake for the length of the year, and then all rectify it in the same way?
_There is good reason to believe that the Great Pyramid of Egypt was built within a few hundred years after the Flood. It accurately stands in the centre of the land surface of the earth as it NOW exists and must have existed at the time the pyramid was built.
_It could be called a huge planet marker, a giant survey post. It marks both the longitude and latitude at which there is more land and less sea than at any other meridian on earth. Evidently the builders were well acquainted with the exact amount of land on the surface of the earth as it existed AFTER the Flood (not before), as well as its geographical distribution. This suggests that results of the post-Flood global survey were already in.
_It would also explain why the NEW LENGTH OF THE YEAR was also incorporated into the measurements of the Great Pyramid.
_The external features, dimensions and units of this pyramid together give precisely and accurately every essential value of the earth’s PRESENT motions and orbit – not the PREVIOUS one that existed before 2345 BC.
_This identifies the Great Pyramid as a post-Flood structure. Definitely not pre-Flood.
_For example, intentionally or by accident, the circuit distance around its base, measured direct from corner to corner, is 36,524.22 primitive inches. This is exactly 100 times 365.2422 – the value in days of our solar year.
_They were ahead of us in many ways. There was no rough count; it was precise to the ten thousandth of a decimal point.
_The nations that sprang up after the Flood with a ready-made culture, inherited their knowledge basically from the world that was wiped out at the Deluge. They continued where Noah left off. They inherited, along with everything else, the antedeluvian (pre-Flood) calendar of 360 days.
_Was there, at the time of the Deluge, a change not only in the planet’s axis, but a change in its orbit, which in turn caused the lengthened year?
_It does bring to mind that curious biblical reference to the Creator, who was believed to “move the earth out of her place.” (Isaiah 13:13)

Lloyd
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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Tue Jul 27, 2021 5:21 pm

77107

SATURN DID GIVE WAY TO JUPITER

Since Ev's webwite doesn't seem to mention Jupiter, I thought it meant he figured that Zeus in ancient myths referred to Mars, not Jupiter. But this article from Thoth magazine about 20 years ago indicates that Dave Talbott considered Zeus to refer sometimes to Mars and sometimes to Jupiter. So his earlier idea that Saturn was followed by Jupiter as the new pole star seems to be confirmed here. Here's the first part of the article.

MALE GODS
https://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv12.txt
By Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs
_Ev Cochrane recently forwarded to me a note from Rens van der Sluijs, dealing with "the problem of identification of the male gods within the Saturnist framework."
_Rens van der Sluijs wrote:
"My conclusion is that the godly assembly is variously referred to as either One God, having an acting Inner Soul, or Father and Hero-Son. The suffering Mystery God, in so many disguises, being torn apart is the One God, but on a deeper level it is his own acting Inner Soul that kills him. He can thus appear as Warrior and Victim in two separate beings. Mythologically speaking, this implies that the same story can be rendered in various ways.
_Thus we reach the startling conclusion that Zeus killing Kronos is identical with the various Mars-gods killing the rightful King, whereas the story of the infant Zeus is directly identical with the numerous accounts of young Herakles, et cetera. Jupiter at face value is, therefore, not always simply to be equated with the archetypal Jupiter God that David Talbott had thus far established. When Zeus kills Kronos we envision the Mars God as Inner Soul overcoming the Golden Age God. The soul, i. e. Venus with Mars, subsequently reenters another body, notably the planet Jupiter, and in this way the same Zeus is said to have achieved kingship. As Inner Soul he is then identical with the body of Jupiter as a planet, i. e. the King acquired a new heart, or rather, the heart acquired a new body (sic!). This sounds like ancient mystery language and in fact it is. Nevertheless, it seems to be the only adequate solution and enlightens the ancient lore not a bit.
_This view predicts that the same divinity can alternately be described from the viewpoint of the acting Inner Soul or from that of the entire god. Methodically, this means that it gets harder to make a divine biography. A divine biography can only be set up once we split the united story in several versions with different role assignments and viewpoints. This is a challenge that I am greedy to face.
_All of this I hope to address sooner or later in an article, also paying attention to related issues:
_[1] The story of Kronos castrating and ousting Ouranos is different. This is not the common parricide myth, but describes an earlier transformation in the life of the Golden King, giving birth to Venus, as can be deduced from the themes and attributes involved in the myths. It is not as widespread.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Jul 28, 2021 3:52 pm

77313

SATURN DID GIVE WAY TO JUPITER (continued from https://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv12.txt)

Dave Talbott Responds:
_1. Re: Kronos and Ouranos. Rens is correct here. This is not the parricide myth. It is the story of Saturn's emergence as a separate power, in events synonymous with the birth of the goddess and hero. The subject is the "first activity" of the planetary configuration. Unified heaven (proto-Saturn) gives way to differentiation. In the Egyptian myth the birth of Shu and Tefnut from the originally inert and unified form of Atum gives rise to THREE -- Re, Shu and Tefnut -- Saturn, Mars and Venus in the Saturn reconstruction. The Hindu system also presents the story of a primeval sacrifice of Unity (first form of Brahma-Prajapati) in connection with the birth of male and female principles. Originally, the male and female powers stood in conjunction. In other words, the variants all answer directly to the Great Conjunction of Saturn's epoch, when Saturn's giant sphere, extremely close to the earth, stood behind the juxtaposed, much smaller spheres of Venus (goddess) and Mars(warrior-hero), these two orbs appearing as the luminous eye, heart, or soul of Saturn.
_The comparative approach will confirm that the severed "testicles" of Ouranos correspond to the "seed" of the Egyptian Atum, holding the goddess and hero in conjunction. This male-female "seed" -- the_BEN_ stone -- typically appears as a single eye (the goddess) together with its "pupil" (hero), though the emerging male and female forms may also be called the "two eyes" in later elaborations of the myth. "Castration" and "blindness" thus go together in archaic symbolism (as Jungian symbolists have already noticed). In the Hindu system as well, the primeval conjunction of Rudra/Shiva and Sati defines the original Unity of heaven. The original male-female seed -- the BINDU -- is depicted as a small circle in the center of a much larger circle. That is the primeval condition of undifferentiated Unity: unborn goddess and hero in conjunction in the center of the vast sphere called "heaven" the gas giant proto-Saturn). The sign for this condition is among the two or three most common symbols in the world. (It is the sign of Re, for example.)
_Of course none of this will make sense unless you have the visual imagery very clear in your mind. The human memories trace to concrete forms in the sky, behaving in a highly specific way that can be tested from one culture to another. The fate of the primeval Unity, however, is the most archaic story element, and as such it reveals much less detail than you will find in the more richly elaborated accounts of the goddess and hero. It is a less defined background memory, and rapidly fades over time. That is why one will do best to concentrate on the oldest available sources. The symbolism of the Egyptian Atum and the Sumerian An/Akkadian Anu will give the most reliable data.
_2. Re: Difficulties in establishing a divine biography. Correcto mundo on this point also. The universal sovereign (Saturn-Jupiter) tends to be a passive figure, while the goddess and hero are highly active. In later literature the Martian figure, the warrior-hero, will appear as the servant, messenger, or assistant in the service of a great king. BECAUSE the story was consistently localized, it was impossible for the original relationships to be maintained. Archaically, the hero figure does not just act on behalf of the universal sovereign--he is the masculine, innermost soul of the god, the active voice going forth as a visible "command," the externalized "will" or "desire" of the sovereign. In the margins between the most authentic (earliest) sources, and the highly fragmented (later) sources you will find both versions of the hero--i.e., both the original servant of the universal sovereign and the later "prideful," "foolish," rampaging hero acting AGAINST the sovereign, even "murdering" him. They are same figures.
_Thus, comparative analysis will reveal that the Greek Eros and Ares, who appear so unlike each other, reflect the SAME archetype. The evolution of the archetype through interpretation and storytelling, however, has taken the two figures in entirely different directions. Eros, the visible, external will or desire of Zeus is thus seen as a little male figure on the shoulders of Zeus -- exactly where we should expect him. The poetic treatment of the Mars god Ares, however, will typically emphasize the rogue aspect -- the warrior, the fool, the murderer. The ambiguous middle zone will be occupied by Heracles, whose name was also a name for the planet Mars in Greek astronomy. Here the poets have retained many separate traditions relating to the hero's labors on behalf of "great kings," while including as well the accounts of his murderous rampage, all the while attempting to rationalize the behavior.
_In truth, this ambiguity shows up in virtually all of the well-documented warrior gods around the world, though the chroniclers endlessly strove to separate the heroic and chaos-monster aspects by treating them as independent mythical figures. That way, one figure could represent the enemy (prototype of the devil in all his mythical forms) and the other a standard to be celebrated without ambivalence. (I will return to this tendency as soon possible, in discussing another point raised by Rens.)

(I'll post the 3rd part later. - LK)

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Aug 01, 2021 4:00 pm

78185

SATURN DID GIVE WAY TO JUPITER
(Continued from above and from) MALE GODS at https://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv12.txt
By Dave Talbott and Rens van der Sluijs
_3. Zeus and Kronos. Bingo on this one too. The overthrow of Kronos by Zeus refers to the same events which -- through nothing more than a subtle twist of interpretation -- were seen as the warrior Mars murdering or displacing the elder form of the universal sovereign Saturn.
_To this observation I would add a further principle, relating to the archetypal "birth of the hero." (I am speaking here not of the first appearance of the hero with the differentiation of the unified sovereign, but the RE-BIRTH of that figure in the great crisis at the conclusion of Saturn's epoch.) Hesiod's story of the birth of Zeus (Jupiter) within a cave is really the story of the HERO "born" in the cave. It was not Jupiter that was carried off by the goddess. It was the unborn hero, as in the universal legend. It is the story of what happens to the masculine, innermost heart of the sovereign, as it passes from the FIRST form of the sovereign (elder god Saturn) to the SECOND (younger god Jupiter). At this juncture, neither form of the sovereign is necessarily visible, while the externalized Martian "soul," "heart," or "will" of the sovereign--the hero--is very visible and highly active. In these events, the focus is on the activity, the transmigrating "soul," not its more passive owner.
_Remember that in the discussion of the labyrinth motif, I noted that the entry of the hero into the cavernous labyrinth is the story of the hero's re-birth. Typically, a goddess such as Isis, pregnant with the hero, finds a secret hiding place. These myths, I said, relate directly to the transition between Saturnian and Jovian epochs, the dissolution of a world age followed by renewal. Theseus enters the labyrinth where he slays the hidden or imprisoned Minotaur, transcript of the archetypal Bull of Heaven, the primeval form of Saturn. Though a lot of ground would have to be covered to make the equation clear and convincing, there is no doubt in my mind that the archetypal "birth [i.e., rebirth] of the hero" IS the story of the passage from Saturnian to Jovian sovereignty.
_Dave Talbott

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:07 pm

78951

CAVE & LABYRINTH MYTHS REF ARRIVAL OF JUPITER

In my previous post, I quoted Dave Talbott as follows in MALE GODS at https://saturniancosmology.org/files/thoth/thotiv12.txt
"Remember that in the discussion of the labyrinth motif, I noted that the entry of the hero into the cavernous labyrinth is the story of the hero's re-birth. Typically, a goddess such as Isis, pregnant with the hero, finds a secret hiding place. These myths, I said, relate directly to the transition between Saturnian and Jovian epochs, the dissolution of a world age followed by renewal."

So I did a search on labyrinth + jupiter at Catastrophism.com
One of the results is LABYRINTH AND FORTRESS OF THE GODS, by Dave Talbott at https://www.saturniancosmology.org/file ... otiv10.txt
There he said this. "Many themes relating to the terrible goddess and the ordeal, initiation, or rebirth of the hero occur in association with the first appearance of Jupiter. In one way or another the motifs of swallowing, cavernous hiding place, wrapping or winding, binding, and imprisonment run through all of the accounts relating to Jupiter's emergence as sovereign power."

I'm hoping that searching on those clues will lead to a fairly definitive date for the Departure of Saturn and the Arrival of Jupiter in the Polar Configuration. If Jupiter was in line behind Saturn from Earth's perspective, it would automatically have become visible when Saturn departed. I still favor the Younger Dryas events as the likely time of transition, but I think it occurred c. 2300 BC, rather than 10,000 years or so ago.

Here are the other search results: https://www.catastrophism.com/intro/sea ... oom_cat=-1


EARTH'S RADIOACTIVITY FROM CATACLYSMS

I'm hoping to have a discussion with Charles Chandler and maybe Mike Fischer about the plausibility of Rapid Radioactive Decay of radioactive elements in Earth's crust during former catastrophic events. I wrote at least 3 posts last year showing some of Walter Brown's info on Rapid Radioactive Decay at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=180#p2135

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:12 am

80052

MILES MATHIS' VS DAVE TALBOTT'S SATURN THEORY

I started a thread on a Miles Mathis forum a couple weeks ago, called "Great Flood, Catastrophism & Miles' Saturn Theory" at https://milesmathis.forumotion.com/t652 ... urn-theory . His idea is that humans lived previously on Saturn's moon, Titan, and made it uninhabitable with pollution, then moved to Earth to restart civilization. It's a good theory, but he pretty much ignores all the evidence of global cataclysms in recent millennia.

MAGNETIC FIELD REVERSALS

I came across his science paper today, called "Pole Reversals as Proof of my Charge Field" from February 1, 2018 at https://milesmathis.forumotion.com/t652 ... urn-theory . Here are the first 3 paragraphs.
_The mainstream now admits that the Earth's poles reverse about every half million years [each period is called a chron]. This admission was necessary due the reversed magnetism found in volcanic rocks. It is also admitted there is no known schedule to the reversal, with periods generally running from 10,000 years to 1 million years. But in the last glacial event 41,000 years ago, there was a flip and a flip-back in a period of only 440 years (the Laschamp event). Another clue to this mystery is that during these flips the total magnetic field weakens greatly, falling to 5% of its normal strength. Also important is that these flips do not correspond to Solar magnetic flips, which occur every 9-12 years. And during Solar flips, total magnetism increases.
_If we ask the mainstream to explain all this, we get very little of use. We are told that pole reversals are explained by fluid dynamics in the Earth's molten core—the standard dodge. It is a dodge since there is no possible way to confirm that, and since the given theories make no sense. However, I have nonconfirmed the core dynamics answer in many previous papers using only logic, and I will do so again here.
_The most widely proposed trigger of reversals is an impact event, but the mainstream admits no reversal was triggered by the impact event that caused the Cretaceous extinction. So there appears to be no connection of reversals to major impacts, pretty much destroying that theory.

The explanation of magnetic fields I find most understandable and plausible is Charles Chandler's at http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=10862 , but his model doesn't entirely satisfy me either. Both his and Miles' models accept conventional dating of magnetic field reversals, but I agree with Mike Fischer at https://www.newgeology.us that the reversals were apparently due to an asteroid impact that broke up the former supercontinent, Pangaea, just four or five thousand years ago. The impact caused the Americas to break away from west Africa and Europe and Australia and part of Antarctica to break away from southeast Africa. Each continent received enough momentum from the impact to slide a few thousand miles over the plasma Moho layer etc to near their present locations. So the magnetic striping on the ocean floors was due to the impact causing the field to rock back and forth during the short time of the continental sliding.

DATING THE REVERSALS

Dating methods are known by Creationist and catastrophist scientists and others to be totally inaccurate for the most part, with Carbon-14 being the least inaccurate. The latter has found that dinosaur fossils, coal etc date to only a few tens of thousands of years ago. Some scientists have also dated the amount of helium in zircons in granite and found it to be only six to eight thousand years old. Likewise re radioactive argon. See "CREATION EVENT POSSIBLY FORMED THE FORMER SUPERCONTINENT" at viewtopic.php?f=11&t=13&start=375#p3566 . By "Creation Event" I meant the events involving the ancient Saturn system that the ancients apparently called "Creation".

ASTEROID IMPACT ON PANGAEA, SUBDUCTION ETC

Mike Fischer has 2 images side by side of the impact site of the asteroid that hit Pangaea at https://www.newgeology.us/presentation9.html . Scroll down to the third image on the page. I made a copy of them at https://ibb.co/vsD0Xtg with a purple line on each image to show where the asteroid first hit off of Africa and where it ended up a few hundred kilometers below the surface off the coast of Sri Lanka and India. Mike explains on that page what real data the images are from. At the moment of impact, Africa and India were touching each other. You can see that the asteroid apparently moved eastward along with India. India must originally have extended almost all the way from Africa to Asia, but the impact pushed much of India under Asia before finally moving all of Asia a small distance.

Mike posted an image of so-called subduction at http://creationwiki.org/pool/images/thu ... _depth.jpg . The subductions occurred due to the impact too. The leading edges of the Pacific crustal plate were rapidly pushed down at an angle during the sliding movements of the continents. Africa didn't move much, but the Americas moved westward and Asia moved northeastward over the Pacific plate, which goes down at an angle under South and North America and eastern Asia and New Zealand etc. That's my take anyway. The subduction under Japan is the hardest to understand offhand for me.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:58 pm

80792

2016 DISCUSSIONS FROM HERE ON DATING THE CATACLYSMS

____________________Postby webolife » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:09 am
_Timelines will always be conjectural and controversial. I'm good with standard C14 12,000BP correlating to an adjusted ~6000?BP date based on the influx of C14 into the troposphere as a result of the atmospheric collapse associated with the flood event[s]. Dates associated with animals that survived the flood event might yield in the neighborhood of 50,000+BP due to the negligible amount of C14 they ingested. Subsequent generations might yield dates in exponentially decreasing years down to a relatively reliable correlation with actual dates in the ~5000BP ranges +/- 700 yr uncertainty because of equilibrium/non-equilibrium assumptions. Fossils buried deeper in the strata should show virtually no C14 because the pre-flood atmosphere was free of it. Purely conjectural here.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:59 am
_The so-called 'dark age' is the result of the refusal by academics to ever acknowledge the seafaring civilisation of the Canaanites/Phoenicians.
The ancient world during 1700-722 BC was very well-connected through extensive sea trade. The shipping lanes connected the Baltic, British Isles, Africa and India with the Mediterranean. This vibrant trade between nations, languages and tribes was accomplished mainly by the Canaanites/Phoenicians--who also developed the alphabet and the first books. This is the world of the Old Testament. It was a highly interconnected world. For example, there are faience beads and also necklaces which are of the Mycenaean style in Wessex burial sites showing that trade was already developed in the north in 1450 BC. Tyre and Sidon were great seafaring cities and are some of the most mentioned people in the Old Testament.
_The enormous blind-spot exhibited towards the Phoenicians is merely academic tradition.
_That reminds me, I was delighted by Lloyd's mention of the possibility of Canaanite trade in the New World.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:35 pm
_Claude Schaeffer ... archaeologist whose excavation of the ancient city of Ugarit at Ras Shamra Syria, disclosed a succession of culture from about 1195 BC back to the 6th and 7th millenia BC.
...He found that Ugarit, a coastal city and port in ancient times, was quite cosmopolitan; in various periods it showed evidence of cultural influence from Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Hittite and Mediterannean civilizations.
_The tablets included texts of literary works of considerable sophistication and originality that also helped to establish the Canaanite origin of the stories of the Patriarchs in the Bible.
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:25 pm
_Because of Schaeffer's work in more widely distributed areas, he was able to see common stratigraphy between the locations.
The significance of this development for accurate dating is astonishing to think about.
_First, this may throw an enormous spanner in the academic dating traditions, who -- due to their own biases -- relate all dates to Classical Greek and Egyptian civilizations. That in itself is an enormous problem because if they have Greek and Egyptian dates wrong, the entire system falls.
Next, the disasters which befell these ancient cities left layers in the record which can be harmonized over wide areas. With today's electron microscope technologies, depositions can be identified with confidence, because as we know every volcano or high-temperature event leaves its own fingerprint, which is unlike that of any other volcano or high-temperature event.
_And Claude Schaeffer was firm in his conviction: he had identified a precise year for the 1195 BC destruction of Ugarit.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am
... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear. Whether Venus was involved in any of the previous incidents is hard to say partly because it is difficult to know in which time period a story takes place.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:44 pm
... Nanodiamond-Rich Layer across Three Continents Consistent with Major Cosmic Impact at 12,800 Cal BP http://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/677046
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:20 am
_Science points to several. e.g. Middle Bronze-Age collapse and Late Bronze-Age collapse. The MBA and LBA collapses happened in the eastern Med/ME, China and northern Europe. They may well have affected other regions, e.g. the Americas and Africa but scholars tend to not mention these.

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:54 am

81432

SOME MORE CATACLYSM DATING CLUES FROM 2016

<File:CatPaper2; previous from CatPaper1>
BRONZE AGE COLLAPSE
[See also https://m.facebook.com/bronzeagecollaps ... 577169249/ - I may quote from that later.]
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:32 pm
... Both Nonnus and Homer are about the late Bronze Age collapse circa 1200bce. There was a middle BA collapse approx 1000 years previous and a major event in the Younger Dryas circa 12000 years ago.
* - homes and the returning to home features in the story of the adultary of Aphrodite and Ares which I think may be concerned with the middle BA collapse though I haven't really looked into it properly. The story involves the pair being trapped in 'brazen bands' by the cuckolded Hephaistos.
--------------------Postby GaryN » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:43 pm
__IRAQ METEORITE IMPACT CATASTROPHE
On the ATS web site, a member has an interesting post,"Sumerian accounts of devastating Meteorite impact", which looks at the Umm al Binni structure, and links to a pdf file, THE UMM AL BINNI STRUCTURE, IN THE MESOPOTAMIAN MARSHLANDS OF SOUTHERN IRAQ, AS A POSTULATED LATE HOLOCENE METEORITE IMPACT CRATER
Image https://www.wits.ac.za/media/migration/files/382.pdf [Linked image is not specifically found.]
I'd suggest that if it was an event linked to the Perseides meteor stream that it was not just an airburst from an incoming meteor, but the discharge of the meteor to the surface, electrically eroding the proposed impact crater and causing the effects reported in the Exploits of Ninurta.
An enormous hurricane, irresistible, went before the hero, stirred up the dust, caused the dust to settle, levelled high and low, filled the holes. It caused a rain of coals and flaming fires; the fire consumed men. It overturned tall trees by their trunks, reducing the forests to heaps, Earth put her hands on her heart and cried harrowingly; the Tigris was muddied, disturbed, cloudy, stirred up.
The birds there tried to lift their heads to fly away, but their wings trailed on the ground. The storm flooded out the fish there in the subterranean waters, their mouths snapped at the air. It reduced the animals of the open country to firewood, roasting them like locusts. It was a deluge rising and disastrously ruining the mountains.
Like an accursed storm, it howled in a raucous voice; like a gigantic snake, it roared at the Land. It dried up the waters of the mountains, dragged away the tamarisks, tore the flesh of the Earth and covered her with painful wounds. It set fire to the reedbeds, bathed the sky in blood, turned it inside out; it dispersed the people there. At that moment, on that day, the fields became black scum, across the whole extent of the horizon, reddish like purple dye -- truly it was so!
ATS post at: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1103730/pg1

====================postby Lloyd » Fri Feb 19, 2016 2:40 pm
__LBA COLLAPSE, VENUS, MARS
- Grey Cloud, at viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16025&start=75#p109676 you said:
"Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear."
- Would you like to quote Homer where he made that clear? I'd like to see exactly what he said in that respect.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:57 am
- There isn't one quote or passage that I can point you at. My view is derived from the context of the story (which I believe involves the story of the LBA collapse); what the narrator says about Aphrodite and Ares; and the various dialogues between the Olympians.
- Best I can do for you, aside from recommending you read one of the best books in world, is point you here: http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeMyths2.html Scroll down to 'Aphrodite and the Trojan War'.
- and http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresMyths2.html#Troy You might have to scroll down here too.

====================postby Lloyd » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:26 pm
__BRONZE AGE & VENUS COMET
- Source of Bronze Age Copper
... http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=18755
... rocksandrows.com/copper-trade-1.php ...
**2345 BC. Comet Graves and Comet Petroglyphs (Brittany), a cosmic disaster recorded
2300 BC. Buriz Petroglyph (Spain), the northern explorations
**2200 BC. Los Millares (Spain), a date for the arrival of michigan copper in Europe
2200 BC. Ocean Pendants (Iberia), honors for sailors to Paradise
**2100 BC. Michigan Copper in the Mediterranean
2000 BC. Petroglyph of Serrazes (portugal), a chart of the Southern Crossing
2000 BC. Rows and Petropots (Iberia). megalithic culture
**2000 BC. Stonehenge petroglyph (England), sailing route to America

====================postby Lloyd » Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:08 am
__SWASTIKA ON ROTATING COMET VENUS
- The Cosmic Origin of the Swastika
... From: Aeon IV:5 (Nov 1996) Issue Contents
... Talbott ... [has concluded] that [a] cross-like formation [common in ancient godhead myths] had actually been issuing from Venus [visible in front of Saturn], [which was due to] the stealing of gases from Venus by Saturn.31 It would, then, have been this cross-like apparition given by the escaping Venerian gases ... that would eventually have given rise to an ogee-like manifestation, that is a curved swastika. Sagan and Druyan themselves have reasoned that the swastika in a comet's head is derived from four "symmetrically placed jets".... And it is the rotation of the comet's nucleus that turns this cross-like stream of jets into a curved-armed swastika.32
... [ Images:] Left: Lycian coin showing the owl of Athena [Venus] in the center of an ogee. Right: Sicilian (Roman) coin showing the head of the Gorgon Medusa [Venus in her terrible aspect] in the center of a triskeleon [See http://ow.ly/Zu3Jp ].
... [ Image:] The goddess [Venus] in association with the swastika (from a Boeotian amphora of c. 700 B.C.) [See http://www.matri-arke.org/wp-content/up ... theron.jpg ]

__MARS METEORITES
- THOTH CLUES TO THE GREAT FLOOD Part 2
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.01.txt
- MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE: Part I of II By Ev Cochrane
---------------------------
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.02.txt
- MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE: Part II
... The Ancient Testimony
Indeed, Mars was associated with spectacular disasters of one form or another, not the least of which was a great flood of water descending from the sky. ... I have confirmed that the ancients described Mars as being much closer in recent times, close enough, in fact, to dominate the skies. Various Babylonian omens, for example, associate Mars with prodigious eclipses of the Sun. ... [ I]f Mars only recently moved upon a different orbit, one much closer to the Earth, the Babylon reports become easier to understand. And the same is true with regards to the presence of Martian meteorites upon terrestrial landscape. Is there any ancient testimony associating Mars with meteorites, or with the hurling of stones from heaven? Indeed there is, and it is quite compelling. The most extensive analysis of the ancient traditions surrounding meteorites is that of Judith Bjorkman. Bjorkman showed that the ancient Babylonians, among others, held surprisingly sophisticated views about the nature of meteorites. Bjorkman summarized her findings as follows: "The texts show that the peoples of the ancient Near East knew of and were able to describe shooting stars, meteors, fireballs, meteor showers, and comets. They were also aware of the extraterrestrial origin of meteorites, including iron meteorites." ... Suffice it to say that the ancient Babylonians specifically referred to meteorites falling from the planet Mars, making such objects the subject of various omens.
====================postby Lloyd » Sun May 01, 2016 6:32 pm
__BRONZE AGE BATTLE
- Regarding Slaughter at the bridge: Uncovering a colossal Bronze Age battle
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/03/ ... age-battle

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Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:05 pm

81679

TENTATIVE NEW CATACLYSMIC TIMELINE

5000 BC Pangaea Supercontinent Formation
3000 BC Great Flood Sedimentary Strata Formation
3000-2500 BC Chicxulub Impact
2500 BC Asteroid Impacting Pangaea Breakup & Orogeny
2300 BC Younger Dryas Early Bronze Age Collapse
1700 BC Sodom & Gomorrah Impact (See http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=18628 )
1200 BC Late Bronze Age Collapse
(The Pangaea Breakup and Younger Dryas Event may have been at the same time. The cause of the LBA collapse isn't clear yet.)

EDITING LAST TWO POSTS

PROPOSED C14 CATACLYSM DATING CORRELATIONS
____________________Postby webolife » Fri Apr 08, 2016 12:09 am
_Timelines will always be conjectural and controversial. I'm good with standard C14 12,000BP correlating to an adjusted ~6000?BP date based on the influx of C14 into the troposphere as a result of the atmospheric collapse associated with the flood event[s]. Dates associated with animals that survived the flood event might yield in the neighborhood of 50,000+BP due to the negligible amount of C14 they ingested. Subsequent generations might yield dates in exponentially decreasing years down to a relatively reliable correlation with actual dates in the ~5000BP ranges +/- 700 yr uncertainty because of equilibrium/non-equilibrium assumptions. Fossils buried deeper in the strata should show virtually no C14 because the pre-flood atmosphere was free of it. Purely conjectural here.

PLANETS INVOLVED IN LBA COLLAPSE
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:37 am
... (As I see it) Venus and Mars were definitely involved in the LBA collapse as were Jupiter and the Sun. Homer makes this clear.
--------------------Postby Grey Cloud » Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:32 pm
... Both Nonnus and Homer are about the late Bronze Age collapse circa 1200bce. There was a middle BA collapse approx 1000 years previous....
... the story of the adult[e]ry of Aphrodite and Ares (being trapped in 'brazen bands' by the cuckolded Hephaistos) ... may be concerned with the middle BA collapse
[E.g. at] http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AphroditeMyths2.html Scroll down to 'Aphrodite and the Trojan War'.
- and http://www.theoi.com/Olympios/AresMyths2.html#Troy
[LK: Grey Cloud apparently assumed that in the Iliad Zeus was Jupiter and Apollo was the Sun. But I think the Saturnists found that they were both Mars in the Iliad. Also, I don't think the Iliad was about the Late Bronze Age collapse of 1200 BC, but more likely the Early Bronze Age collapse of 2300 BC, probably the time of the Younger Dryas event. The planets likely dispersed at that time. I'll have to search for my reasoning for that.]

1195 BC DESTRUCTON OF UGARIT
--------------------Postby Brigit Bara » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:59 am - 1:25 pm
_trade was already developed in the north [Europe] in 1450 BC.
_Claude Schaeffer ... Canaanite origin of the stories of the Patriarchs in the Bible.
_And Claude Schaeffer was firm in his conviction: he had identified a precise year for the 1195 BC destruction of Ugarit.

EBA IRAQ IMPACT
--------------------Postby GaryN » Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:43 pm
_THE UMM AL BINNI STRUCTURE, IN THE MESOPOTAMIAN MARSHLANDS OF SOUTHERN IRAQ, AS A POSTULATED LATE HOLOCENE METEORITE IMPACT CRATER
from: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread1103730/pg1
[LK quoting site: "... it might possibly be linked with an ~2350 BCE “ash” layer found at Tell Leilan (Syria) and in sea sediment core off Oman, re-interpreted by Marie-Agnes Courty to be an impact fallout layer. ... Master also suggested that an impact-generated tsunami could have been responsible for the Babylonian and Sumerian 'flood' legends."]
[See also: Electronic Text Corpus of Sumerian Literature at https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/index1.htm ]
[LK: So the Iraq crater etc occurred during the Early Bronze Age collapse and the Younger Dryas event.]

====================postby Lloyd » Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:26 pm
__BRONZE AGE & VENUS COMET
- Source of Bronze Age Copper
... http://qdl.scs-inc.us/?top=18755
**2345 BC. Comet Graves and Comet Petroglyphs (Brittany), a cosmic disaster recorded
2300 BC. Buriz Petroglyph (Spain), the northern explorations
**2200 BC. Los Millares (Spain), a date for the arrival of michigan copper in Europe
2200 BC. Ocean Pendants (Iberia), honors for sailors to Paradise
**2100 BC. Michigan Copper in the Mediterranean
2000 BC. Petroglyph of Serrazes (portugal), a chart of the Southern Crossing
2000 BC. Rows and Petropots (Iberia), megalithic culture
**2000 BC. Stonehenge petroglyph (England), sailing route to America

====================postby Lloyd » Tue Mar 15, 2016 10:08 am
__CAUSE OF CROSS/SWASTIKA ON COMET VENUS
- The Cosmic Origin of the Swastika
... From: Aeon IV:5 (Nov 1996) Issue Contents
[LK paraphrasing:] A cross-like formation on Venus was due to Saturn behind Venus stealing its gases, which cross then morphed into a curved swastika, as seen on ancient coins of Venus/Medusa.

__MARS METEORITES ON EARTH
- http://saturniancosmology.org/files/tho ... 999.02.txt
- MARS ROCKS IN ANCIENT MYTH AND MODERN SCIENCE: Part II
The most extensive analysis of the ancient traditions surrounding meteorites is that of Judith Bjorkman.
... the ancient Babylonians specifically referred to meteorites falling from the planet Mars, making such objects the subject of various omens.

Lloyd
Posts: 4974
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:54 pm

Re: Creationism, Myth and Catastrophism

Unread post by Lloyd » Sat Aug 21, 2021 5:03 pm

82879

SATURN NOVA "ICE AGE"?

There are quite a few good articles and videos this week at viewtopic.php?f=5&p=5585#p5585
Here are the best ones.

MAMMOTHS & CLIMATE CHANGE CATACLYSMS
Unprecedented study of single woolly mammoth shows where it roamed from birth to death 17,000 years ago
https://www.sott.net/article/457135-Unp ... -years-ago
("This animal ... was alive 17,000 [make that 4,000] years ago, pretty much at the height of the last Ice Age. A lot of people outside of Alaska assume that we were covered by ice during the Ice Age, but that's not true. The majority of it was NOT covered by ice." Comment [within article]: Indeed. As Pierre Lescaudron explains in his fascinating article Of Flash Frozen Mammoths and Cosmic Catastrophes mammoths simply were not built to survive an extremely cold, arctic environment, in addition to this there would have been a lack of food sources to sustain it. Taken together with a wealth of other data, it shows that the areas were actually much more temperate than they are today.)

FLOODED ICE SHEET
Cataclysmic Continental Shift - Bringing It All Together: Creation, Flood, Science, Myth and Scriptures
http://cataclysmiccontinentalshift.blog ... t-ice.html
(What is being mistaken for glaciation is the striated rocks caused by tremendous flooding and the erratic boulders that were trapped in polar ice and drifted with the flood waters then deposited their rocky cargo after the iceberg melted.)

FLASH FREEZING OF THE ARCTIC
Of Flash Frozen Mammoths And Cosmic Catastrophes Earth Changes
https://en.calameo.com/read/003459461debeffc413c2
[Hudson Bay etc in Canada and Lake Saimaa in Finland are Younger Dryas comet impact sites. The impacts flash froze temperate mammoths etc {in Siberia too?} before SD impact when Finland was close to Canada. It was after the Great Flood, because sedimentary strata formed during the Flood and mammoths etc are atop the strata. The article shows that the comets impacted at a shallow angle and caused huge winds and temperature drops due to cold upper atmosphere air being pulled down to the surface. It doesn't explain the fiery conflagration around the world that also occurred at that time, so the Saturn nova model may be needed to fill in the gaps.]

See also: Apocalypse Now: The Rocks Cry Out
https://books.google.com/books?id=yYrTD ... 22&f=false

Also: Ep070 Immense Ice Dam Extrapolation / Floods Controversies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Yd2F0x8ONs

Also: Did Earth ‘Steal’ Martian Water?
https://uncensored.co.nz/2019/09/15/did ... ian-water/
https://www.sott.net/article/420386-Did ... tian-Water

ANCIENT ADVANCED TECH
Christopher Dunn, Giza Power & the Images from the Great Pyramid Queen's Chamber Northern Shaft
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rodl_PNXJBM
(Dunn found good evidence of advanced technology in and around the Giza Pyramids.)

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