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by nick c » Thu May 09, 2024 2:48 pm
nick c wrote:an iron plate was found in between some stones in the Great Pyramid by Vyse, it is believed to be left behind during construction.
The plate was sent to the British Museum, where the feeling was the iron plate could not have been contemporary as iron was supposedly unknown in the Pyramid Age. However, two series of examinations (done in 1881 and 1989) clearly disprove that view:
"Though some doubt has been thrown on the piece, merely from its rarity, yet the vouchers for it are very precise; and it has a cast of a nummulite (fossilized marine protozoa) on the rust of it, proving it to have been buried for ages beside a block of nummulitic limestone, and therefore to be certainly ancient. No reasonable doubt can therefore exist about its being a realy (sic) genuine piece."
In 1989 examination was done by Dr. Jones (Senior Tutor in the Mineral Resources Engineering Department at Imperial College, London) and Dr. Gayer (lecturer in the Faculty of Petroleum and Mining at Egypt's Suez University). They, through checking on the nickel content of the plate, were able to exclude the possibility that the plate had been manufactured from meteoritic iron. Their tests also showed that it was most probably gold-plated. They concluded, "It is concluded, on the basis of the present investigation, that the iron plate is very ancient. Furthermore, the metallurgical evidence supports the archaeological evidence which suggests that the plate was incorporated within the Pyramid at the time that structure was built."
by Lloyd » Thu May 09, 2024 12:16 am
by Open Mind » Tue May 07, 2024 1:44 pm
by Open Mind » Sat May 04, 2024 4:13 pm
by nick c » Wed May 01, 2024 4:31 pm
- Material: breccia marble from the Narvsky open pit in the Krasnoyarsk Territory - Ingoing size: 200x200x200mm - Finished size: 80x135mm - Tool materials: wood, sandstone, corundum (grindstone + grinding agent), hemp string, alabaster, quartz. - Self-made tools: a grinding and drilling machine, a bow drill, a chambering tool (a grindstone on a wooden handle), a copper saw, copper drills of various diameters. - Total work time: about 6 months, 6 to 8 hours a day, excepting 2 days off a week. At least 2 months of this time period were spent on making and testing the tools.
The experiment was not intended to copy the ancient method of stone carving in detail. The idea was to show the possibility of doing such work using simple tools.
by Lloyd » Wed May 01, 2024 4:43 am
by Lloyd » Tue Apr 30, 2024 10:23 pm
Ancient Egyptian Granite Sawing Technology: reconstruction https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ZHYWle0DE Scientists Against Myths Jul 7, 2020 The experimentalist Nikolay Vasiutin attempts to cut a piece of granite using ancient Egyptian methods: utilizing a copper saw with an abrasive agent (corundum). The stone cutting experiment was conducted for antropogenez.ru portal. Specifications: - Copper strip length: 22 cm - Granite piece thickness: 17 mm - Cut Length: 48 cm - Cut Width (max): ~6mm - Total time taken: 3.5 hours - Extracted granite weight: 46g (3012-2966=46) - Granite volume: 17.03 cm3 - Copper material wear: 23 gr. (229-206=23) - Copper volume: 2.58 cm3 This was referenced: "Granite, a Copper Saw, and Abrasive Material, Principles of Loose Abrasive Sawing. Excellent article by Oleg Kruglyakov: https://antropogenez.ru/sawing/ "
"... Experiment performed on the 12th of March 2017. A decorative kerf in granite." "Fig.15. A forged blade of a copper saw for an experiment.... I suggested that to make the refined decorative kerfs {saw cuts}, the Egyptians initially sharpened the blade somehow, without waiting for it to sharpen itself. It seems logical. Forging is the most economical option and perhaps even the easier one, too. That is precisely why I manufactured such a saw, and not to create a V-shaped kerf as such. The kerf should have turned out V-shaped by itself. I wanted to learn how they did it with minimum effort. And then he tried to make a kerf with it, with the help of a corundum suspension." "... An important note. In the process of abrasive sawing (as with abrasive drilling), grooves appear, change their position, merge, diverge, disappear and then appear again equally easily." "Quantitative Results of Experiment #1 - Kerf depth ca. 12 mm. - Kerf entry width ca. 3.5 mm. - Bottom curve diameter ca. 1 mm. - Taper angle ca. 12 degrees or less (keep in mind what the camera position does to angle perception). - Material expenditure: copper - 6 g, granite - 11 g. Division value of the scales: 1 g. - Specific weight: copper – 8.93 g/cm3, granite (in our case) – 2.62 g/cm3. - Volume of materials used: copper - 6/8,93~0.67 cm3, granite - 11/2,62~4.2 cm3. - Weight ratio copper/granite:6/11=1/1.8 - Volume ratio copper/granite: 0,67/4,2=1/6.27 *** Experiment performed on the 13th of May 2017. A decorative kerf in granite." "The working edge, just like previous time, was sharpened by forging." "The abrasive suspension consisting of water and corundum powder gradually mixes with abrading granite and copper and turns into a pulp, acquires a pink hue and rather quickly is thrown out of the kerf with the movements of the saw (Fig. 27, 28)." "To supply the work zone with abrasive we simply washed it in with a jet of water, and the soft hissing sound was followed by a gritting one which stopped rather quickly as the abrasive in the pulp was being ground into powder, and the pulp became slimy to the touch." "The mechanism of the abrasive in action is exactly the same as in the case of drilling...." "Quantitative Results of Experiment #2. - Copper saw blade length: 22 cm. - Granite plate thickness: 17 mm. - Total kerf length: 48 cm. - Maximum kerf depth: 17 mm (a through kerf). - Maximum kerf entry width: ca. 6 mm. - Wall taper angle: ca. 14 degrees. - Bottom rounding curve diameter: ca. 1 mm. - Total work time: 3.5 hours. - Granite extracted: 46 g (3012-2966=46), 17.03 cm3. - Copper wear: 23 g (229-206), 2.58 cm3. - Weight ratio copper/granite 23/46=1/2 - Volume ratio copper/granite 2,58/17,03=1/6.6 The resulting weight and volume ratios are equitable to those achieved in the first experiment in March of 2017."
by nick c » Mon Apr 29, 2024 12:18 am
Lloyd wrote:Sawing granite with copper or bronze saw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8ZHYWle0DE
by Lloyd » Sun Apr 28, 2024 7:45 pm
by Lloyd » Sun Apr 28, 2024 6:36 pm
by nick c » Sun Apr 28, 2024 5:08 pm
Lloyd wrote:Nick, can you provide evidence or sources for your claims?
nick c wrote:The problem is that high quality steel does not appear until about 1200 BCE give or take.
Depending on the region, the Bronze Age–Iron Age transition in the Near East (Fig. 1) is usually dated to 1200–1000 BC. As we shall see, however, transformations in iron use began before and continued long after this 200-year period. It is imperative, therefore, to distinguish between the chronological period termed the Iron Age, the origins of extractive iron metallurgy (i.e., smelting), and the periods in which iron achieved widespread usage. In many areas, these events took place at radically different times.
Meteoric iron is practically carbonless and hence cannot be hardened in the manner of steel.....Much rarer than copper, meteoric iron was often used for jewelry....Small meteorites were the most convenient sources
nick c wrote:The sarcophagus in the King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid, shows clearly defined saw marks.
Ginenthal wrote:Petrie has made it quite clear that the saw markings are indicative of blades that cut, not with powder, but with hard teeth.
Barbara Mertz wrote:Saw marks have been found on the granite sarcophagus from the Great Pyramid and on basalt (another hard stone) pavement blocks from the temple of that pyramid, and drills were certainly used for stone statues and vases. [.....] The use of diamond points in industry is well known[....] But sad to say, the Egyptians did not have diamonds. Neither did they have topaz (8) or rubies and sapphires (9) or even beryl (8) before the Greek Period.
nick c wrote:Also, an iron plate was found in between some stones in the Great Pyramid by Vyse, it is believed to be left behind during construction.
This is to certify that the piece of iron found by me near the (outside) mouth of the air passage, in the southern side of the Great Pyramid at Giza, on Friday, May 26th, was taken out by me from an inner joint, after having removed by blasting the outer two tiers of the stones of the present surface of the Pyramid; and that no joint or opening of any sort was connected with the above-mentioned joint, by which the iron could have been placed in it after the original building of the Pyramid. I also showed the exact spot to Mr. Perring on Saturday, June 24th-J.R.Hill. To the above certificate of Mr. Hill, I can add that since I saw the spot at the commencement of blasting, there have been two tiers of stone removed, and that , if the piece of iron was found in the joint, pointed out to me by Mr. Hill, and which was covered by a larger stone partly remaining, it is impossible it could have been placed there since the building of the Pyramid -- J.S. Perring, C.E We hereby certify, that we examined the place whence the iron in question was takenby Mr. Hill, and we are of the opinion, that the iron must have been left in the joint during the building of the Pyramid, and that it was not inserted afterward -- Ed. S. Andrews - James Mash, C.E.
nick c wrote:Using copper saws with a slurry of quartz is just not practical. The slurry is going to cut into the copper saw faster than it is going to cut the granite.
Ginenthal wrote:The problem with this method is that copper is actually softer than quartz sand and also softer than granite, schist, basalt, and diorite. Rather than cutting into stones the quartz sand will destroy the copper blade. While this method will work with soft limestone, it is not possible to use it with these harder stones. This was shown to be simply false in the early part of the 20th century by H. Garland, a metallurgist, who actually tested this methodology with a copper saw and an abrasive harder than the rock to be cut. The method failed to work.
Roger Hopkins wrote:I quickly got bored with working the soft limestone and started to ponder granite work. Here in Massachusetts my specialty is working in granite. When I was asked by the Egyptologists how the ancients could have produced this work with mere copper tools, I told them they were crazy.
Wiki wrote:The earliest sources of tin in the Early Bronze Age in the Near East are still unknown and the subject of much debate in archaeology.
by Lloyd » Sat Apr 27, 2024 9:25 pm
by nick c » Fri Apr 26, 2024 7:43 pm
Lloyd wrote:253486 Nick, do you want to h[ave a chronology discussion as I mentioned above at viewtopic.php?p=10325#p10323 ?
by Lloyd » Fri Apr 26, 2024 4:33 am
by nick c » Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:43 am
Lloyd wrote:The King’s Chamber in the Great Pyramid is known for a mysterious salt encrustation on its walls. This salt buildup was up to half an inch thick in places. The salt was also found along the Horizontal Passage and in the lower portion of the Grand Gallery. The origin of this salt buildup remains one of the greatest mysteries of the King’s Chamber1.
These limestones are of a grey-beige to yellow–brown colour, mostly compact but also porous in places, and they feel chalky due to marly components. Many of small-sized fossil remains are detectable but hard to identify. Occasionally, small nummulites up to 5 mm in length could be recognized at polished surfaces. During storage over a longer period, various salts effloresce at the surface, which can be washed off easily with the finger. With a hand lens, the fossils appear mostly as small nummulites, shells and other fossil remains, all irregularly imbedded and mostly secondarily calcified within the limestone matrix. The present study confirms that the building stones of the pyramids are natural rocks and were not formed by using artificial concrete.
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